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IFH 709: The Virgin's Journey & Sexual Awakening with Kim Hudson · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to IFH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Indie
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Filmhustle Podcast, Episode number seven O nine. The Unread Story is not a
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story. Ursula Gwinn broadcasting from the back alley in Hollywood. It's the Indie
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Film Hustle Podcast, where we show you how to survive and thrive as an
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indie filmmaker in the jungles of the film biz. And here's your host,
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Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Indie Film Hustle Podcast.
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I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Today's show is sponsored by
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That's film bizbook dot com. Now, guys, I know many of
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us have heard of the hero's journey and the writer's journey that was popularized by
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Joseph Campbell and for our film industry by Chris Vogler. But today on the
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show, we have a different perspective on the hero's journey. We're going to
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be talking about the Virgin's Promise. Now. The Virgin Promise demystifies the complexity
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of archetypes and clearly outlines the steps of a virgin's journey to realize her Dream
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and the writer of that book, Kim Hudson, and I had a fantastic
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and really remarkable conversation about looking at the hero's journey from a female's perspective,
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about a female's character and what her journey goes through, which is very different
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than the hero's journey. And it's something that was so fresh and new and
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I really had not heard this in story before and it is fascinating to look
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at without questions. So, without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation
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with Kim Hudson. I'd like to welcome to the show, Kim Hudson,
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Height and Kim, I'm good, Thank you for having me. Thank you
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so much for coming on the show. Like I was telling you earlier,
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I really love your book because and please remind me the name. I don't
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have it with me, The Virgin's Promise, the Virgin's Feminine, Spiritual and
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Creative Awakening, Sexual Awakening. Obviously we have to we have to throw in
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the sexual awaken, Yeah, because it's interesting. You really kind of take
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the hero's journey, which is something that every screenwriter should know, even if
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they don't use it, they should know. But you turn it on its
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head. A little bit and look at it from a feminine perspective, and
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I'm dying to kind of get into the weeds with you for it. But
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first, how did you get involved and how did you get interested in writing
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a book like this? Because it really hasn't if I mistaken, there's no
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other book like this, right, Oh there isn't, which really surprises me.
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The biggest thing is that that phrase all story from all time is a
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hero's journey has just embedded itself and people's psyche, so they're not really looking.
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They'll say, oh, well, there's the heroine, but no,
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that's that's the energy of a hero of fear based journey to conquer something,
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including your own fear, and win the day. It's very externally focused story,
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and a heroine is just a woman doing that job, whereas this one,
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this one is the exact opposite. This is about turning inward and awakening
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to your true potential, your your sense of connection to who you are,
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what your talent is, what your sexual orientation is, something that's authentic about
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you, and then how do we go about first discovering that, growing it,
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and then bringing it to life. Now, yeah, this is gonna
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say I actually didn't answer your question. How did I actually get there?
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How did I? I think, you know, I grew up. I
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grew up in a family that highly valued the masculine, and so I just
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tried to do everything I could. I played ice hockey, I became a
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geologist. I jumped up at helicopters in grizzly bear country, you know,
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like I was really given her. And even then I started to recognize that
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when I was alone after the helicopter left, I did things in my own
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way, and I was actually good at finding patterns of mineralization, all those
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kinds of things, because I was trusting my intuition. I was going inward
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and discovering what would where that would take me. I trusted walking into the
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unknown. And all of these things are parts of a virgin journey. And
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virgin I always have to say this, if I had a dollar for every
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time virgin is what I mean is the original meaning of it, which means
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to be of value, to seem for your value, just for being yourself,
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like a virgin forest. It's commonly used in Youngian thought, not as
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virgins, as in the nineteen eighties comedies. Yeah yeah, not as like
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men can counter and you haven't been taken before, you know, right,
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virgin scenario. Yeah, yeah, but it does actually mean I mean going
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from virgin to an active person and knowing sort of what you like and don't
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like. It's actually is that it's awakening to your sexual orientation. That's one
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of the most fundamental ways of finding your authentic self. It's really interesting.
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It seems to me from just from the short conversation so far, that it
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is an inward journey more than an outward journey. Ut. Yeah, because
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the hero's journey is all about conquering the dragon that is in the cave,
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that is guarding the treasure, where this one is about conquering the dragon inside
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of you and discovering who you really are, which is man. It's literally
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the flip side of the point of the hero's journey. Literally, as a
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matter of fact, as a hero, you're conquering, You're you're controlling,
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you're taking control over something outside of you. But actually the dragon inside you,
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you're welcoming. You're you're exploring. What does it want me to know?
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What's the you know, it's the opposite in every fundamental way. I've
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said on the show many times I've surrounded by feminine energy constantly. I have
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no testosterone anywhere near me at any time. I have women. I've been
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around women my entire life, a single mother, the whole ball of wax.
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So I understand more than most about feminine energy. Not anywhere near as
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much as obviously you, but I do. I do have a better take
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on it than most men do. And as I've grown older, what you're
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talking about is really interesting because I think at the beginning of a man's career
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or man's life, boy's life, we are about conquering. We're about showing
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physicality. We are about going and grabbing the that the gold or the treasure
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and bringing it back. Yeah, all of that kind of you know,
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macho testosterone thing. But as you get older, you know, even the
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toughest guys that I know, you know, Navy seals and other people like
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that, they start to when that's done, they start to look inward,
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and then the beginning of that journey starts at a later time in a man's
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life. Again, very broad, broad spectrum. I'm talking about here,
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not everybody, but most, And it seems to me that a woman's journey,
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and please please correct me seems to be more an inward journey at the
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beginning of her life, trying to figure herself out in the world. Is
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that a fair statement. I would say there's definitely, and particularly today,
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that we're on this place where there's room for women to be themselves, and
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yet there's still vestiges of like a dependent world. Think you get messages that
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you know either that you you have to be pleasing or that it's a male
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dominated world and you have to sort of emulate men to get ahead in the
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world. Like, there's still those messages out there. So there is this
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this starting out where you feel that you're meant for something and it's in contrast
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to the environment that you're in, and you have to figure out a way
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to to go inward, be strong enough and who you know you are.
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And I call it a secret world, like it's part of the story where
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you have to find a place where you you feel like you're you're surrounded by
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friends and that people want you to do well. And then you can play,
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you can make mistakes, you can laugh, you can step into the
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unknown and then figure out what it needs from you or what it has to
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offer. So we still we have that when we're young. But I would
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actually say at the time when like it's a circle, we'll be right back
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after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So
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your children leave and suddenly all your roles have drifted away and you need to
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go back again. You need to circle back and find out who am I
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now. I'm not the same person that I was when I first discovered myself,
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and you're sort of born again. You're you're sort of learning again to
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find out who this authentic person is today and then be that person in the
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world. So let's talk about the actual journey of the virgin, our typeal
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journey, which in the hero's journey we all you know, call to adventure
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and you know, you know the point in our return and all these kind
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of terms that Joseph Campbell so beautifully built out and then Chris Vogler talked about
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it so beautifully for the film industry. Is what are those key points in
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the virgin journey? Okay, I'll do my little party trick. I think
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that in five minutes I can tell you a virgin story. And it can
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if you'll hold in your mind, even something like Joker or Billy Elliott or
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Coda black Swan. All of these are really great examples of virgin story.
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So I'm going to tell them in a certain order. But one thing I've
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discovered is it's nonlinear. You actually could tell these beats in any order,
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but those beats will fundamentally be part of the journey. Okay, So the
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virgin starts out in a dependent world where messages around her tell her how she
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should behave, but there's a price that she's paying. Either she's aware of
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it and she's hiding it, or she's even asleep to her own potential,
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but she's paying a price for conformity until one day she gets this opportunity to
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shine, this little taste of what it would be like to be herself,
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and she takes it. She likes it, and it's usually almost this moment
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of alchemy where the dancer gets the shoes and just the putting them on seems
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to activate something or sexual orientation becomes clear because they take off their clothes and
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suddenly they know what they want. So now that they know a little taste
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of it, they want more. So they create a secret world because they're
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not ready to blow up their dependent world. These are actually their family,
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their home life. So what they do is they create a secret world so
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they can go back and forth between the two and then the secret world.
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As I mentioned, they're learning to become more connected and playing with what it
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might look like, and they've got friends. They can make mistakes, but
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that going back and forth is crucial. They're learning the contrast between what they
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think they want their life to be and what their life is and why those
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differences have to exist, and they're kind of building a bridge until one day
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they start to expand to the point where they just can't stay contained and the
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two collide. Their two worlds, their dependent world and their secure world,
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collide and form one, and the kingdom goes into chaos, a lot of
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pent up energy. They're synchronicities that have been held together. Suddenly there's permission
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and things start blowing up. But there's this moment where she recognizes, because
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of all that back and forth, that she can give up the belief that
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she had to behave that way she did in her dependent world. She gives
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up the belief that was keeping her stuck. But that's not the same as
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going forward in the new life. So now she's wandering in the wilderness.
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She's trying to figure out, well, I could go back and take everybody
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out of their pain and all this chaos, but with the full knowledge that
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I actually have more potential than this, or she could go forward, but
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there's no tangible proof that she could make a life. But she chooses her
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life because it's not really living unless she chooses to be herself in the world.
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But when she makes herself visible someone and it even could be herself besides,
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that is worth protecting, valuing, and I call it the reorder or
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the rescue, and so the world reorders so that there's a place for her
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to be in her natural, shining form. And the amazing things is the
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kingdom discovers that it needed what the Virgin had to bring. Either there's no
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unconditional love in the world, or there is a new talent that she brought
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that has offered something new to the world and it's better off. You often
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do a montage here, and that's the Virgin's story. So that's interesting,
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it's it's it's a fascinating way of looking at it because as you were talking
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about it, I'm trying to go through movies in my head. I'm like
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where is like, you know, my computer is like like trying to figure
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out where you can place these because the hero's journey, there's a thousand of
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them. But but this is interesting, But you said the word Joker,
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So this doesn't particularly have to be a feminine heroin. It could be mail
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because it seems like it's an again, an internal journey. It seems,
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as you were explaining it almost almost spiritual in nature in the in the way
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that it you're trying to find the authentic voice in you. So like if
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you really, if you're Billy Elliott, all I want to do is dance,
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but the world around me doesn't allow me to do that. So then
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every sounds like okay, Billy Elliott, I get But Joker is a really
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dark version of that. So can we break that out? Because Joker is
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a very popular movie. It was I Love Joe one of the best movies
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of that year and arguably this last decade. Can we kind of break down
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Joker? And it's kind of like, go beat by beat a little bit,
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what that is that? Are you? Are you able to do that?
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Do you remember? Well, God, I think I've written a blog
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on that, but you know, I was really hesitant to watch Joker.
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I can't watch horror. It like gets into me and I never can forget
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it, never be alone again kind of thing. But once I watched it,
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that is such a spectacularly well written movie. Everything that's in the background
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is telling you that dependent world. You listen to what's happening in the radio
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and the interviews, and they're all saying the dependent world is that if you
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do well, then you get your just reward. And therefore people who are
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not doing well don't deserve to do well. Either they didn't work hard enough
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or they so doing well means you deserve well. Not doing well means you
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need to suffer, and that's you know. So there's this guy and he's
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trying really hard to smile for his mother, and that's his dependent world,
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right. He's trying to like but it's it's forced because the world is not
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accepting him. And so he goes inward and he has this fantasy world and
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where this woman loves him, and that's his secret world, right, and
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it actually starts the two worlds collide where he actually starts being a Joker in
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his real world, and that's when everything starts to blow up. And the
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thing about Joker is that the secret world is not always as harmonious as I
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made it describe. It's his best way to make sense of the world he
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has around him. You know, it's his mind trying to help him to
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navigate this world. Yeah, but it's it's harsh. But do you remember
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when he was sitting there talking with the counselor and and yeah, after when
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he's saying, you know they you're like, he's being told you're not getting
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meds anymore in this than that, and he goes, do you notice you
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don't listen to me? And do you notice that you know you're not doing
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any better off than I'm doing? Like the system is not helping either of
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us. Well, that's his gives up on Captain Stock moment. He's like,
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we don't have to conform and play our role in something that's actually not
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working for us. And so what would be other beats because they're not in
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the in the order. That's a great example of how things don't have to
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be in order. And then I think, when I think, if I
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remember correctly, when he was on the subway for the first time and he
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I think he shot those guys or something. There's a point where he crosses
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the line where that at that kind of point no return. But it's like
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the flip side of that, like there's a thing that he does. Then
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now he has to you can't go back to where it was. He can't.
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There's no way he has to move forward at the journey. Yeah.
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Yeah, And when he chooses his light, it's kind of an awful moment
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where he's with the midget and the other guy and he just beats the other
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guy to oblivion and he's just like, you know what, I don't deserve
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this, and then he does it. And that's another thing about these stories
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is that they circle back again, so it happens again when they knock him
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on television, he basically chooses his light. He's like, you know,
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I'm not to tell him. I'm not going to take it anymore. It's
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like I deserve respect. This whole model where just because I have a learning
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disability or I'm a secret because my father's an important man and he doesn't and
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I'm an embarrassment, that does not make me deserve this kind of negative treatment.
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And he chooses his light. He says, I will not accept that.
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And even though at first he is actually just going to go out in
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a big bang and make everybody sorry. He ends up choosing his own life
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over somebody. Ye, and isn't it interesting that his choice? And this
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is when you said, the world reconforms around him, and spoiler alert,
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please everyone stop listening or fast forward a few minutes because I'm gonna talk a
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little bit about the ending. But when he does all the things he does
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on the Robert Niro Tonight Show, thing, yeah, and he basically causes
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a riot and the entire world is also like, yeah, we feel like
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you too, and all of a sudden, it all just literally the world
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reforms around him and he becomes this reader icon of this movement where he was
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truly just trying to do it for himself, but he realizes that, oh,
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I'm not alone. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
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And now back to the show. There's a lot of more you know,
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messages in the bottle if you will out there, right, which is
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his first moment of having a secret world where he's actually among friends, but
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it's like the big world, right, And he even says in his interview
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that I wasn't trying to save the world. I don't have some big mission
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here, do I look like a guy who's got a plan. I'm just
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actually being myself great, I'm just trying to be real here. And that
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turned out to be a guy in a Joker costume. It's like, I'm
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going to take control of this. And it's so interesting because talking about,
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you know, feminine energy and spirituality and sexual awakening, you don't think Joker,
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but which is a fairly testosterone I mean, there's a lot of testosterone
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in that movie, but he has a he has a feminine energy to him
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because he's really struggling. He's he's really just trying to figure things emotional y
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when Jesus is the Joker, I mean very emotional. So it's a fascinating
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a study of story structure looking at that, because we'll talk about some other
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examples, but Joker is a fascinating one because it is, you know,
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something you don't think about. Yeah, one day I was listening to the
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whole story of Frozen, talking about same storyline but very different feel to it
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where the woman Yeah, yeah, but you think about it, what is
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it Elsa? I think it's alsa that she has a power and she's told
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that it's evil and she has to keep it in and then she decides,
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you know what, I'm going to let it go. If you listen to
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the song let It Go and sort of play the soundtrack or the track I
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have children in your mind? I have children too much? Yeah, a
21:52
million times. But think about Joker, the movie Joker, and then let
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It Go the song. You put those two together and it's quite phenomenal.
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The words speak to what he's trying to say in that movie. Wow do
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it? It's really fun. That's pretty trippy. Everyone, Please let us
22:11
know what you think. If you listen to let It let It Go while
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you're watching joke Er and see how it connects. It's like was it watching
22:19
led Zeppelin with the Wizard of Faws and everything clicks on? Yeah, exactly.
22:23
It's like the dark side of the Moon or something that's hilarious. Now
22:30
can you can you talk about because on the hero's journey there are the archetypes,
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the Wizard, the trickster. What are those in this journey? So
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I have this theory that there's basically three big archetypical journeys that we all have
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the potential to go on in our life. I think in my life a
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well lived journey. If my life will be a well lived journey, I'll
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go through all three of them. And we actually can do them in a
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masculine and a feminine the way. So the first is your relationship to self,
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and the hero is I in relation to my fear of life, I
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can conquer it and I can go out and be active in the world.
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So that's my relationship to self in a masculine way. And then in a
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feminine way, it's I learn how to turn the camera inwards and how to
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bring something authentic about myself into a physical form, almost like helchemy. So
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those are both a relationship to self. The next is how do I cross
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the distance between me and somebody who is not me? And that's that relationship
23:37
to another person. And how do I maintain myself and still respect somebody who's
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different from me, And that would be the warrior king and the mother goddess.
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And then the last one is this ultimate recognition that we are a part
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of a cosmos of a bigger picture. And for the masculine, that would
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be the mentor, you know, the philanthropist, this idea that I know
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I'm going to die, and I'm going to pass on my knowledge so that
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there's a benefit from generation to generation. So it's it's this very concrete recognition
24:14
that life is finite. And then with them and inside it's the chrone.
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It's the sense that life is all about connection, and we're about to make
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a connection into the whole cosmos. So while you're still on the planet,
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you start to recognize that you can see the connections that other people might be
24:33
missing, and so like a trickster, you go in there and you mess
24:37
with their lives a little bit just to get them on the track, because
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you know that everything's connected and their connection to themselves is fundamental to everything else
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unfolding the way it's meant to. I'm going to get a little deep here
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for a second, because as you were talking about that, it was very
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interesting because at the beginning of my career, I went out to conquer,
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and I went out to go direct, and I make movies and work card
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and I worked my ass off for twenty odd years in the film industry,
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working in post production and directing movies and commercials and music videos and things like
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that, and it was a very outward hero's journey. It was very outmost
25:14
conquer. But then, which is what's interesting, I looked inward when I
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was unhappy. I was lost for a little while. I opened up an
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olive old company, and a lot of people who listen to the show understand
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that's a whole other story. So I got a little lost, and then
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I looked inward. And when I looked inward, I said, m I
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need to bring out my authentic self and help the world. And that's when
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I launched this show. The film Hustle shows person and then the Bulletpoo screen
25:45
writing and afterwards. But I launched that show, and by being my authentic
25:49
self, very much like the Joker, not trying to do anything other than
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just try to help whoever listened, it grew into where we are today and
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is where I found my true happiness. Even though I still enjoy going out
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and directing in the external, my true happiness is here talking to you,
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sharing information that's a completely inward, spiritual, almost look inside of what I'm
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doing. Does that make sense in the journey for you? Absolutely? Yeah.
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And I find that there's two fundamentally different understandings of power, and you
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touched on them there when you're in the hero mode, it's to assert your
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will even against resistance. That means hard work, long hours, overcoming obstacles.
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But in a virgin world, power comes from knowing yourself and then bringing
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that self into life, and then supporting others in doing the same. And
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it's extremely powerful. Oh my god, it's been. I mean it's so
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powerful in fact that in the time period where I was doing the external hero's
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journey, let's say, I would have killed to have access to the people
27:03
that I get access to now who reach out to me. Now, it's
27:07
fascinating. I have Oscar winners, and I have legends and people in the
27:10
film industry who want to be on my show. And I'm like, and
27:12
I sit back sometime, like, isn't this interesting? How this is?
27:18
This whole story has turned its head. If you would have told me ten
27:22
fifteen years ago this would be the way, you know it, I would
27:25
be able to do things. In is the key. It's not out,
27:29
it's in. And again when I was saying earlier, the out is a
27:33
very young man's energy. It's the warrior in us. We need to go
27:37
out and conquer. And I forgot there's four stages of development. The warrior,
27:42
the teacher. I forgot the four but there's there's these four archetypes.
27:47
It's someone someone much more intelligent than I. Someone else, Yeah said these
27:52
four things, and I was like, oh, that's so true. Because
27:53
when you're young, you're a warrior, you go out to try to conquer,
27:56
to show off physicality. But as the year go on, the physicality
28:00
starts to go in and you start to go inward and you want to become
28:03
the teacher or the mentor or the another thing. There's a couple other the
28:07
other two stages, but it's so true. But it's so powerful that now
28:12
by going inward, coming out being authentic and trying to help others, is
28:17
when all of the things that I was kind of looking for in the warrior
28:21
journey is now literally handed to me on a plate where I can, you
28:26
know, I make relationship. It's just interesting, it's just fascinating. Hopefully
28:30
people listening. This is a little bit more of a philosophical, spiritual and
28:33
screenwriting conversation, but it's so true. Any good. The reason why the
28:37
Hero's journey connects with so many people, it is a metaphor for life.
28:41
We all go through hero's journey at one point or another. Absolutely, we
28:45
need to do both. Like I am never going to say that the Virgen's
28:48
promise is a better story than the hero's journey. It's you know, in
28:53
life, we need to do both. There are things to be afraid of.
28:57
We do need to set a goal plan to not fall into every pitfall
29:03
that your life is offering. And you have to, like you have to
29:06
say for a rainy day, all these things that give us comfort and safety.
29:11
Yeah, and it's not everything. No, it's not everything. You're
29:15
right. And again, as you get older, you realize that that the
29:18
hero's journey is not everything, and this inward journey is the journey that is
29:25
much more powerful, much more powerful because it's happening. And yet yeah,
29:30
and yet so underrecognized. People often think, oh, I have to have
29:36
a plan, I have to like, I'll never have any power. And
29:38
because this is such a almost a power of humility in other words, by
29:44
the more you're you're doing and offering what you truly love, it's contagious and
29:48
it draws people into you that want similar things or that can feel inspired by
29:56
you, and then you get inspired back. We'll be right back after a
30:00
word from our sponsor and now back to the show. It always gives these
30:10
unexpected gifts. And it's so interesting because a lot of screenwriters ask me,
30:15
you know, what do I do to make it into business? What do
30:19
I like? What's the secret sauce? And I go, you are if
30:23
you can tap into your authentic self and speak authentically through your writing, there's
30:30
nobody in the world that can compete with you because no one can be you.
30:33
And if you study. And I've had the pleasure of talking to many
30:37
of these these really great writers. They're all authentic to who they are.
30:41
Tarantino is, they're authentic to himself. Nolan is authentic to himself. Edgar
30:48
Wright is authentic to himself. Eric Roths. They're very authentic to their where
30:55
it's coming from. And that's something so hard to grasp when you're younger,
31:00
when you're starting out. They're like, no, no, I try to
31:02
be someone else that's successful, and I go, no, the thing that
31:04
makes you successful is being you. And it's scary and terrifying to be you
31:11
in the in the world as the Joker. As the Joker showed us,
31:15
yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. One of the things the screamwriting
31:18
advice that it really bothers me is that you need to have constant crisis,
31:23
that you have to have ever bigger obstacles to overcome. And people think that
31:30
it's not an interesting story if you're not constantly showing this fear. And really,
31:37
this inward story is the quest for love, and love is not always
31:42
euphoria. You know, there's heartbreak and there's all these things, but you
31:47
fall in deeper into them. These are not obstacles to overcome except for things
31:52
that you need to explore, you know, like you don't fight back and
31:56
push away, you actually go, hey, I'm curious about that. And
32:01
the screen should spend time looking at a person's face and figuring out you know,
32:07
are they are they wandering in the wilderness? Are they giving up the
32:10
old belief making room for something new? You know, like these things are
32:15
the challenge and we want to see people feeling joy and and finding their moment.
32:22
And you know it's like about a boy when he stands on the stage
32:24
and you know, little miss Sunshine when the whole family gets up there because
32:30
Gladys I think it is her dame. You know, she wants to do
32:31
a strip song. You know, you know it there's you know, it's
32:36
so good. It's and it has nothing to do with conquering some sort of
32:40
you know, or achieving a goal. It's about being in the moment and
32:45
feeling passion and standing up for something. Well, it's story is about conflict,
32:51
but it doesn't have to be external conflict. It could be internal conflict
32:53
and internal journey that has to go through. And there is I mean,
32:59
so if we've analy and I know what you were saying, like you have
33:01
to have conflict all the time. Well, interesting situations happened when there is
33:06
a barrier to break through. So if you don't have a barrier to break
33:09
through, and that could be an internal barrier, it absolutely could be an
33:13
internal barrier. You look at Little Miss Sunshine as such a great movie.
33:16
I haven't watched that again. I actually I talked to him. I was
33:19
talking about wife last night. We gotta Watchlis Sunch. I don't remember it
33:22
as well as I remember the ending so good, but yeah, but that
33:27
was there was some external conflict there, if I remember correctly, But it
33:30
was truly about her and her journey to express who she truly was as insane
33:37
as that, But also it was about the dad who had this belief that
33:45
he had to be conquering the outside world. And when he was finally authentic
33:51
in his love for his daughter, he was humanized. He brought his whole
33:54
family together and that turned out to be way more important than anything else he
33:59
was trying to do. Which is the moral of that story is it's like
34:02
when you are able to touch the inner world and be authentic to yourself.
34:07
I mean, it's funny because I've always tell this joke, is like,
34:12
as you get older, you give less of a crap about what other people
34:15
think. Like when you're younger, you were like, oh my god,
34:16
what is what is anyone going to sink? Like my daughters are terrified of
34:21
what I do in public, and I'm like, oh, this is so
34:22
much fun. So I try to embarrass him as much as possible. But
34:25
as you get older, you know, when you get to the seventies eighties
34:30
and you see the old man without assured on in his flip flops and his
34:34
long and his underwear going out to get the get the mail, and he
34:37
doesn't care at all. That's the other extreme of that scenario. He is
34:43
arguably very authentic to who he is. Yes, right, wrong, and
34:49
he really don't figured out what really matters. He in his world, his
34:54
mask is gone. He I mean this is an extreme version, but his
34:59
mask is gone. And and you know all the stuff that we put on,
35:02
like the suits or the armor if you will, to go out,
35:07
he is literally out there. Yeah, it's not the why world. He's
35:13
Yeah, in my world, he's a chrome. He's the one that's like
35:15
showing us that really does that matter? And you know, like really,
35:21
you know, think about what you're thinking matters so much and know that you
35:24
could just be free and everything is connected. So there's there's certain characters like
35:31
I know you mentioned in your book, like the whore and the version like
35:36
the apt the virgin virgin and the fem fatale. Can you like when I
35:40
was thinking like pretty Woman, is pretty Woman an example this? Is there
35:44
versions of that in Pretty Woman? Or is it very similar to just a
35:47
hero's journey? Oh? I think Pretty Woman is a very much a virgin
35:52
story. Okay, she she believes she's only worthy of bums, and then
35:58
through this sexual experience, she discovers that she has a talent for business and
36:05
and she's interested in something and she wants more for herself out of life.
36:09
So it's to me, it's absolutely a virgin story. And really the only
36:15
the shadow side of the virgin is when she herself becomes disconnected from her value.
36:22
That's that's what the horror is basically, where she has lost her sense
36:28
that she is intrinsically worthy of love and so then she doesn't take care of
36:32
herself in the world. And it's it's again it's an internal mentality that that
36:39
it reflects in the way she's presenting herself. And sometimes it's because the environment
36:49
has so consistently shown she's of no value that it sinks in and that disconnection
36:57
needs to be reversed in and into reconnection. So well, I was just
37:06
going to say, it's the same for the them fatal in that if that's
37:09
the that's the second journey at the feminine where she meets to cross the distance
37:14
between herself and another person and she's lost herself. She's manipulating another person in
37:20
order to have power in the world, whereas she hasn't recognized that she has
37:23
her own type of power and that she needs to bring that into her consciousness
37:28
and then she can exist in the world. So like a fatal attraction,
37:32
So fatal attraction, let's say, or a basic instinct those two characters don't
37:40
realize that, or double indemnity or drasticill or any of these these kind of
37:47
these kind of characters who are using manipulation, using their sexuality, using other
37:52
things to manipulate people because they have not again gone inward to understand and something
37:59
happened to them childhood, something happened to them in the world that that that
38:02
story, that's the narrative that they've built up. They're like, I've got
38:06
to be this way to survive in the world. Is that a kind of
38:08
and it's and what it's done is that it's caused them to disconnect from the
38:14
fact that they actually are powerful, that they have their own, you know,
38:17
their own sense of love for themselves and that could be enough. And
38:22
that's what the story has to do, is not get them to like get
38:28
some survival power. It's more like they need some love power. You're like,
38:31
they need to bring that back to themselves and then they actually can cross
38:37
from being the shadow side of the feminine to the light side of them.
38:42
It's really it's I mean, I feel like this conversation is a therapy session
38:45
for everyone listening because it's like, really you started to like you're like,
38:47
we're doing inner work today, guys. Yes, well that's the whole thing.
38:52
We're doing some inner work. People are going to walk out of this
38:55
listening to this, Like with Jesus Man, I gotta I gotta touch my
38:59
authentic self. If I gotta go inward, I gotta I gotta go into
39:01
that cave inside of me and fight the dragon to get through, to get
39:06
to the treasure, to get it out into the world. Yeah. You
39:09
know my workshops, people write to me and they say later like you know,
39:14
they don't have They say they don't have writer's block anymore because between the
39:17
hero and the journey there's always some structure to help them move forward. But
39:22
the biggest thing is they recognize it in their life. They'll suddenly go,
39:27
oh my god, I'm wandering in the wilderness, you know. And I've
39:30
had people really changed their lives, like and I was like, Okay,
39:34
well that's on you. I'm not I'm just talking about movies here. I'm
39:37
just movies and stories exactly. That's it. If you I'm not a therapist,
39:42
but you know, a lot of the things we're talking about is I
39:45
mean, a good story is an analogy for life, and and these this
39:49
inner story, which is why I still find this this concept so fascinating.
39:52
I mean, I've done eight hundred episodes. We'll be right back after a
39:58
word from our sponsor and now back to the show, on both of my
40:06
shows, over eight hundred episodes, and I've never had this conversation with every
40:12
single great story guru screenwriter. You can imagine, no one's ever had,
40:19
never come, never approached story in this way before. And it's that's what's
40:22
so fascinating about this conversation for me, because it is something that's just not
40:28
talked about. It is not talked about, it is not it is not
40:30
put out into the screenwriting universe. It is it's, you know, the
40:35
hero's journey. We're good. Chris and Joseph Campbell have done a fantastic job
40:40
to get right pr between Star Wars and with Joseph Campbell, what Chris Vogler
40:47
did. I mean, the hero's journey is everywhere, and I Saved the
40:52
Cat and all of this stuff, But this inner journey is interesting. What
40:55
other movies that can you come up with that are great examples? Because I
40:59
want the audi is to really kind of have reference points. Okay, so
41:05
Jojo Rabbit that's got the obvious secret world in it, and he's fighting,
41:07
he's trying to conform to the Nazi ideal and it's just eventually not working for
41:13
him. He changes his clothing. We can we can see that stresses the
41:16
part where he gets back to his mother and family. So that's one koda.
41:22
You know, that is just fabulous. Her dependent world is like her
41:27
non hearing family meets her, and yet it's contrary to what she needs to
41:31
do for herself. So that was a great one. Oh, good luck
41:37
to you, Leo Grant. Did you see that. It's on Netflix.
41:40
It's it's new and it's Emma Thompson who hires a male prostitute to help her,
41:49
you know, with an awakening. It's really good and it does follow
41:52
the beats. Their secret world is in that hotel room. The wife where
41:58
she her secret world is that she's a ghostwriter for her husband, and the
42:02
coming the clashing of the two worlds is at the very beginning where she has
42:07
to be the dutiful wife when she her work is actually getting the Nobel Prize
42:12
and that causes this, you know, it's a fabulous, fabulous story.
42:17
God, there's so many. Brittany runs a marathon, Ladybirds and education,
42:25
black Swan, you said black Swan as well. Black Swan definitely carry There's
42:31
one cult Love, Honor and Obey, which I there's another one that I
42:37
would never watched Elliott Grove. Rain Dad said watch this and I was like,
42:40
okay, and I watched like futes about it's about a home invasion and
42:45
this couple that gets brutalized. But anyway, I watched it for five minutes
42:51
and I turned it off and then I was like, I am a professional,
42:53
so I turned it back off. These are actors. The lights come
42:59
on, yes, yes, And I tell you it's a black it's sort
43:02
of a black comedy, and and it's about a woman who is forced to
43:06
recognize what she's accepting from her husband. I don't want to give away too
43:10
much, but it is a fantastic movie. Sleeping with the Enemy. You
43:15
remember the Sleeping with the Enemy, which was you know I sat a long
43:20
time ago. Yeah, I remember. It just came to my head.
43:22
I was like, maybe that's one as well. Yeah, well, I
43:25
mean it doesn't make sense that there's a lot of inner work beliefs that need
43:32
to be let go to get away, right, it's that kind of a
43:36
thing. Virgin suicide, that's another one where the mother has been so oppressive
43:43
that they can't move forward. The shape of water is a great one.
43:47
Yes, yeah, it's fascinating that there's so many. There's so many examples,
43:52
Like you're saying, that's been La La Land. Oh god, yeah,
43:57
La La Land as well. Yeah, trying trying to get her inner
44:00
talent into the world. So so there's been so many examples that have been
44:05
under our nose, but no one's really ever called it out before, like,
44:08
yeah, this is this is the story guys. Yeah, yeah,
44:12
the pattern hasn't been described. But people, you see, the theory of
44:15
archetypes is that it's in our unconscious, that it's there for us to help
44:20
navigate through life. And Joseph Campbell made one visible, so it's a lot
44:24
more you can get to it. And I made another one visible, so
44:30
you know, and there's in my mind there's four more, so I'm working
44:34
on those. Are you working on the other you're working on the other ones?
44:37
Yeah, yeah. My next one will be the how to cross the
44:39
distance between you and somebody who is not you interesting? The archetypes of marriage?
44:45
Really? Oh yeah, I have been married for a lot of time.
44:53
There's there's something that the title of your book mentioned, sexual awakenings,
44:58
and this is something I just wanted to to touch on it because those films,
45:02
sometimes they're done perfectly and really well. Sometimes they're not. They're approached
45:07
out you know, there's a male energy or you know, it's just it's
45:13
not done correctly. So can you give me an example of a good one
45:17
and a bad one and the reason why it's good and the reason why it's
45:21
bad if you can, Well, the forty year Old Virgin actually is a
45:28
great example of delayed and yet and then that final moment of awakening it's and
45:36
it's and it actually follows all the beats. Another one that I've always loved
45:40
is New Waterford Girl. It's a Canadian film, And yeah, she lives
45:45
in a small town in Nova Scotia, where you're very limited and you should
45:51
always stay on the island, and she wants to be an artist, so
45:54
she fakes a pregnancy. She notices that pregnant girls get sent away, and
45:58
so she fakes a pregnan see, and it's about her sexual awakening and her
46:05
talent awakening and the whole community going crazy. It's a really funny, really
46:09
good movie. Yeah, so once where Broke Back Mountain another one where it's
46:17
you know, secret world and their clash and the what society expects from you
46:22
and and never being able to overcome it. It's a very beautifully done sexual
46:28
awakening. You know, I don't really pay attention to the ones that are
46:32
done really badly. It feels like porn to me, so not a example,
46:43
you know what, I would actually say. There's there's female porn,
46:45
and there's mail porn apparently, and mail porn is just really about how can
46:50
I get some excitement? Like it's just goal oriented, which is is not
46:54
the same as a sexual awakening to me. As sexual awakening is this recognition
47:00
that we have the power within us for great joy. Yeah, we'll leave
47:07
it there. But I'm just trying to think of in my head of like
47:09
bad ones, and I'm like, if they're bad, they're generally softcore softcore
47:17
essentially, it's if it's done incorrectly. That's basically, so if you see
47:22
softcore porn, that's probably not the That's right, It's not a virgin's journey.
47:28
But I but I but I like it probably the male gaze to exactly.
47:31
But I'd like I like that you use the forty year old virgin because
47:35
that's a great example of a sexual awakening in a very obviously comedic way.
47:40
But it was. I mean, he was a forty year old virgin and
47:44
all the stuff that has to happen, and Jeddapatel does have has he touches
47:49
on. Even in his comedies, he touches on inner stuff. Funny people,
47:52
and a couple of his other films touch on the inner Yeah. Yeah,
47:59
in this in his word, I've noticed even while they're being silly.
48:04
Yeah yeah. So you choosing her light? I saw that term in the
48:12
book. What does that mean? Choosing the light? Choosing her light?
48:16
You know, this is saying that it doesn't really matter until it changes within
48:22
her own heart. So a person like Janis Joplin, you can have all
48:27
of the glory, but until you actually decide that you are intrinsically valuable and
48:32
that you have the right to take up some space in the world and shine
48:36
your light, you know that it doesn't really affect your happiness. And it
48:43
starts with an individual person you need to find your happiness and find your connection,
48:47
and then like a drop of water, it starts to spread out to
48:51
other people. So that beat chooses her light shows that it's it's not about
48:57
other people saying, oh wow, you're amazing. It's about you deciding that
49:01
you are in value and really getting that sense of self. It's deep.
49:06
So that's interesting because in Hollywood you're surrounded by people going you're great, you're
49:14
beautiful, you're great. And yet we've all seen examples of people who were
49:17
giant stars who either sabotaged themselves or God forbid, you know, took their
49:25
life and they just couldn't choose their light. They couldn't allow it to for
49:30
whatever reason. It's some pre built glass ceiling that they put in their heads,
49:36
like I'm not worth this, you know. I mean John Belushi comes
49:38
to mind, you know who number one album, number one show, number
49:45
one movie in the in the world, and he was depressed as all hell.
49:51
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back
49:58
to the show, right right. And a guy that was in Mark and
50:02
Mindy, Oh well, Robert Williams. Robert Williams, I mean he he
50:07
had an illness. It was a mental degenerative, degenerative thing that happened to
50:14
his brain that caused him to do that. But but yeah, but many
50:19
of these you know, and we've seen it, I mean people, So
50:21
you know what what you were saying there is actually why that beat gives up
50:25
what kept her stuck is so important because if you don't give up the old
50:30
belief that told you you had to conform to that dependent world, then you
50:35
have this constant dissidence that you're behaving in a way that's not in alignment with
50:39
one of your beliefs, and that will always throw you off track. You'll
50:45
always try and go back to be in alignment with that. So the Virgin's
50:49
Journey notes that you have to have a moment where you consciously reflect and say,
50:54
you know what, I don't actually still have to believe that it might
50:58
have served me in the past, but now's the time to cue the music,
51:01
let it go. I think for us it's so true because there are
51:14
those limiting beliefs that we all live in. Now we're getting into the psychology
51:16
and the young in aspect of this, of this of this journey. But
51:23
if you are told you're not worth it you're not that you could be the
51:27
most beautiful human being on the planet, gorgeous, talented, And we've seen
51:31
these people, we've we've seen these people self destruct in front of her eyes.
51:37
And Nicole Smith, I remember, I mean she had everything, she
51:40
did not feel worthy of this fame and accurate, she just couldn't deal with
51:46
it. And I mean whatever happened happened to her, of course. And
51:51
Marilyn manm Roe is a little different. Yeah, but there's just like there's
51:55
still there was an element. Well, she was norma gean, she was
52:00
still in her head, she was norma Gee. She wasn't Marilyn Monroe.
52:02
And to live up I can't even imagine trying to live up to being Marilyn
52:07
Monroe when she wasn't. I mean, she was there, she was put
52:13
up there as the perfection of the female species. I mean at the time,
52:19
right right right, Who can live? Who can live with that kind
52:22
of pressure? So too, you can break through those own limiting beliefs or
52:28
stories that you're telling yourself. You doesn't matter what kind of success you have.
52:34
If you can't find it within you, you can't go forward exactly.
52:38
And you know, people try and tell this story about becoming your authentic self,
52:43
and they just present obstacles and then a light went on and suddenly they
52:49
were themselves right. And it doesn't read true on the screen. We never
52:52
really break it down and understand that there's a lot of stats, you know,
52:57
like that you're facing the unknown. You have to cuckoo for that.
53:00
You can't it's it's too vulnerable to face criticism. And you have to recognize
53:07
what your old belief was so that you can let it go. You have
53:12
to consciously choose for yourself that you're choosing your light. It doesn't matter if
53:15
the rest of the world it sees you as brain. You know, like
53:19
there's all these steps that to writing that inner journey that we tend to kind
53:23
of without a structure and just gloss over it. And then suddenly she got
53:28
better. She's like boom, one day she just found her light and it's
53:30
done, and it's a it's all yeah, yeah, it's there has to
53:35
be scenes that they are consciously figuring that out in one way, shape or
53:39
form, and that's interesting. It's an interesting way to write it is make
53:43
it interesting when you see that because it's inner work. So it's hard to
53:45
put that on the screen, so there has to be yes. How would
53:49
you? How would you give me an example? I don't know if you
53:52
ever did you ever see Ever After? Of course it's a story. Yeah,
53:57
yeah, you've got kids. Yeah. So there's this moment where she's
54:00
been to the ball and everything's blown up, and she's just like, okay,
54:04
it is what it is. I'm just going to work hard again.
54:06
And she's talking to her stepmother and she says, was there ever a moment
54:10
that you felt love for me? Because you're the only mother I've ever known,
54:15
and her, the stepmother says, how could I feel love for a
54:19
pepper in my shoe? And then you see Drew Barrymore's just okay, I
54:27
accept that I've been trying to find love from somebody who will never love me.
54:30
And and just in a look, she gives up what was keeping her
54:34
stuck? She boldly asked the question, she got the answer, and she
54:37
accepts it. And so a whole beat done in just a look. That's
54:45
a really interesting, that's really your absolutely right. How many times have you
54:47
gone to your parents looking for something or gone to a spouse or or a
54:52
girlfriend or a boyfriend looking for something that they're just not going to give you
54:57
ever. Yeah, and and then you go, oh, okay, I
55:01
get it. I get it. Now I need to move on. It's
55:04
okay now, thank you for letting me off the hook. Exactly exactly.
55:08
Another movie came to mine, Enchanted. Oh yeah, that one is that.
55:15
That's if you start looking at that journey, it's very inward like.
55:20
At first, she's a card princess and has to stick within the world of
55:23
being a princess, and slowly she starts to realize, no, I'm I'm
55:29
worth it. I'm not just I'm I'm a human being and I want to
55:31
go do this and I want to go do that. And she comes up
55:35
she awakens within herself. I have a full range of feelings and I want
55:38
all of that authenticity to be in the world. Yeah, and boy,
55:43
the amy if she just plays it so deeply, you know, somebody could
55:49
have played that very sufficious officially, but she got the whole virgin, you
55:54
know, and if the actor gets it in their hurt, it just flashes
55:59
onto the screen. It's really quite something. She should have gone on an
56:02
oscar for that performance. She was so good in that. She's she's an
56:07
amazing actress. But that she is, she's perfect. Now tell me about
56:14
where can people find your book and the work that you're doing. It's on
56:19
Amazon, Amazon, both all the kinds. Uh. It just recently got
56:23
released, I think. So that's nice. Yeah, it's true, Michael,
56:29
we see productions. And how about your question and your website and where
56:34
people find you and your story? Story archetypes dot com is just where my
56:38
website is. That's a good urel. That's a good urel to have.
56:44
And I'm gonna ask you any questions. I ask all of my guests.
56:46
What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today when
56:53
we've been talking about the authentic Yeah, the auth embrace your light is what
57:01
you're saying. Yes, Now, what lesson took you the longest to learn,
57:08
whether in the film industry or in life? In life, and of
57:14
course it's in life so many so let it go. I have a friend
57:22
who's a psychic who says she's never met somebody who hangs onto their pain so
57:25
long. So I'm afraid this is my life. Lesson gives up what kept
57:32
your stuck? And three of your favorite films of all time? Oh,
57:39
Okay, Chokola, Yes, enchanted, and I'm going to have to say
57:45
Joker, well, Parasite, they're both amazing. They're all virgins stories.
57:52
What an amazing collection of films. That's amazing, great, great collection,
57:58
Kim. It has been a pleasure talk. Thank you so much for putting
58:00
this out in the world. And I'm going to do my darnedist to get
58:04
this information out to the screenwriting public because it's something that's just not talked about
58:09
enough, and I think it's a new way to approach story. And one
58:14
last question. Can you have the hero journey and the virgin's journey overlap each
58:21
other in the same story. Yes, as a matter of fact, it's
58:25
not a person, it's an energy, and that energy then the hero or
58:31
the virgin energy can pass through the same person. But if you want an
58:36
example, just if you were trying to like screenwriting, figure out how do
58:39
I put the two together and have the stories work. Frozen the two characters
58:45
Anna and Elsa, Anna as a hero else as a virgin, and they
58:49
just you watch them connect with each other. There are stages the rescue reorder
58:57
that's a place where the hero crosses over with the virgins. Story. So
59:01
is that does it have to be two characters or can this be the one?
59:05
Can this be in one character and two both? It can be both?
59:09
Yeah? So, oh there's tons where where the well? Ever after
59:16
she saves herself the original writing of the Pretty Woman apparently she saved yourself in
59:24
the end, and then he came back and they rewrote that, there's lots.
59:30
Yeah. So you definitely and we'll know this in our own lives,
59:34
that you can be the hero in your own life and you definitely see be
59:37
in charge of your own Virgin's journey. We will leave it at that.
59:42
Kim, thank you so much for being on the show. It has been
59:44
an absolute pleasure talking to you. And thank you again for the work that
59:45
you're doing. Appreciate you. Yeah, you're welcome, Thanks for having me.
59:50
This is lovely. I want to thank him so much for coming on
59:53
the show and dropping her knowledge bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you so
59:57
much. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this
59:59
episode, including how to pick up Kim's amazing book, The Virgin's Promise,
1:00:04
head over to the show notes at any film muscle dot com. Forward Slash
1:00:07
seven oh nine and if you have it already, please head over to Filmmaking
1:00:12
podcast dot com, subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
1:00:16
really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for
1:00:19
listening to guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream
1:00:22
alive, Stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon. Thanks
1:00:24
for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at Indie film Hustle dot com.
1:00:30
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