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Cultivating A Meaningful Ministry with Rev. Dr. Bankole Akinbinu · The Weight

• 0:07
  We're here today with the Reverend Doctor Bankoli Akimbinu.
• 0:11
  He's the senior pastor of Baptist Grove Church in Raleigh, North Carolina.
• 0:16
  And we're so grateful to have you here with us today, Bankoli.
• 0:20
  It is my honor to be here, Chris and Eddie.
• 0:24
  It's a pleasure to meet you today.
• 0:26
  Uh I'm honored.
• 0:27
  Thank you for having me.
• 0:28
  Now, Bancoli, you and Chris have history together, right?
• 0:32
  Y'all went through your your D Men program together at Duke.
• 0:35
  That's exactly right.
• 0:36
  Went through the D Men program together and do you know, pray for one another through the storm I'll say, and both of us came out on the other side victorious.
• 0:48
  No, no, not at all, not at all, no.
• 0:52
  No, it was a good time.
• 0:53
  I really enjoyed it and and it was cool because um we're kind of at similar life stages in terms of family and and uh it's been it's been great to watch uh Ben Coley's tenure at Baptist Grove continue to mature and to grow and uh I look forward to hearing I mean we haven't talked in a while, so it it'll be fun to kinda catch up as well as as hear a little bit more about your story.
• 1:18
  I wonder if you could go back and and maybe tell us a little bit about um about your faith formation.
• 1:23
  Where we're what's your background and your family of origin?
• 1:28
  So uh I one, I am the son of Glenda Akinbene and Ben Coley Akinbenu senior.
• 1:37
  my father is an immigrant from Nigeria and he came here to uh go to college and my parents met at Howard University.
• 1:47
  And so I ended up growing up in the DC area, PG County, just outside of DC, where Howard University actually is.
• 1:56
  And so um my mother, devout Christian, loved the Lord, spirit-filled woman of God, and my father at the time, not as much.
• 2:08
  And so my fourth day formation began first and foremost just with my mom taking me to church.
• 2:15
  That's where it started.
• 2:16
  My mom took us to church.
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  We were in evening services, morning services.
• 2:21
  And my mother was a musician and a singer, and so she would play for the churches that we were in.
• 2:27
  She would also sing in direct choirs and things.
• 2:30
  So I'm a little boy, you know, sitting in the pews and sitting in the chairs, just really watching her um lee in worship.
• 2:39
  And she would sing and and and she would praise the Lord.
• 2:42
  And honestly, at the time for me as a little boy was a little embarrassing, you know, because my mother's, you know, it's praising the Lord and everything, and I'm looking like, oh my, you know, at the time.
• 2:54
  But as My parents eventually divorced and so during that period I was still very young.
• 3:01
  During that period that's when my relationship with the Lord I would say became more personal, right?
• 3:08
  I remember I was saved at ten and it was actually by my bedside.
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  difficult period, you know, for me with the disintegration, what I felt like disintegration of my family.
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  And I was praying and just talking to the Lord.
• 3:21
  And I said, Lord, you know, if you're real, come into my life.
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  You know, I need you and I want to receive you as Lord and Savior.
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  This is by my bedside.
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  Um and that is my salvation moment for me.
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  That's when I believed I I was saved at by my bedside.
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  I had been in church for a while, but that's when it became personal.
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  And I was young.
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  Then after that, um, so fast forwarding a little bit, my mother called me into the living room one day.
• 3:52
  I was like playing video games or something.
• 3:53
  She was like, You're gonna sing with us.
• 3:55
  So this was my sister who is three years older than me, my mother and me.
• 4:00
  And my mother was a musician.
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  So I started singing and she taught me how to harmonize and everything.
• 4:06
  And so we formed a little family group and we would go around singing at different churches.
• 4:12
  So my first exposure to ministry and serving in church actually was in music ministry, right?
• 4:19
  I do.
• 4:20
  I actually have a song on on iTunes called The Heart.
• 4:23
  Yeah, I do.
• 4:24
  Yeah.
• 4:25
  So I still sing.
• 4:26
  Um, so I I started singing with the family.
• 4:29
  We would go around to different events and different places and worship services, and we would sing.
• 4:34
  And then after that, um, around the age of 15.
• 4:39
  the Lord began to call me into ministry.
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  I was going to a small church at the time, Community Bible Baptist Church.
• 4:46
  It was the first church where I actually saw youth in leadership roles, significant leadership roles in church.
• 4:54
  I'll never forget I went.
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  It was a guy who's like a brother to me now.
• 4:57
  He's my pastor's son.
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  His name was O'Brien Rimbish.
• 4:59
  And uh he was actually in ministry already, and he was in high school at the time.
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  And so that was when I first came to the church.
• 5:06
  He was serving, he was, you know, exhorting.
• 5:09
  And I had never seen um a person so young in such a significant leadership role in church, right?
• 5:16
  Um, and I didn't know at the time that the Lord would call me into ministry.
• 5:20
  People saw me and they say, there's a calling on your life, you know.
• 5:23
  But I said, Uh, I I don't think that's the way I want to go, right?
• 5:27
  But when I was fifteen, The Lord began to call me into ministry, and it was not some audible voice necessarily.
• 5:34
  It was a deep resonance in my spirit.
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  And it was a short little refrain, constant, persistent.
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  Preach the gospel.
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  Preach the gospel.
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  And I'm in high school at the time.
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  I normally could concentrate very well when I was in class.
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  I was not distracted with other things.
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  I was hearing as I'm sitting in class, listening to the lectures, preach the gospel, preach the gospel.
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  So I said, Lord, I believe you're calling me.
• 5:59
  And uh I I said, but I really want to know.
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  And so during lunchtime I would go up to the library.
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  I fasted and I would go up to the library and I would pray and I would read my word.
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  It was so interesting around that time I didn't say anything to anyone, not even my mother at the time.
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  People began to call me to preach and speak at different places.
• 6:19
  vacation Bible schools, worship services, and I was like, Oh, really?
• 6:23
  And so at that time, even if you weren't a preacher, my mother said, You need to avail yourself and be available to do the Lord's work, right?
• 6:30
  So I said, okay.
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  So I would go and I would speak.
• 6:33
  And then I said, God, I feel like you're I feel like you're calling me into ministry.
• 6:38
  If if this is you, Lord, like almost like the Gideon piece, right?
• 6:41
  If this is you, Lord, give me one more engagement.
• 6:44
  I was sitting on my mom's bed and I was watching a Redskin game, because I'm a big Red at the time Redskins now commanders.
• 6:51
  Big Redskin fan.
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  So I was watching the Redskin gang.
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  And about five minutes later, after I said it, the phone rang again.
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  And it was my pastor.
• 6:58
  And my pastor said, Bank Holey, will you preach on the fourth Sunday, which was our youth Sunday?
• 7:03
  So I said, Okay, I will.
• 7:05
  So I preached that Sunday and I came to him at the end of that service and I said, I need to sit down with you and have a conversation.
• 7:13
  Came in later on that week and I said, You know, the Lord is calling me into ministry.
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  And he said, We already knew, we were just waiting for you.
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  Waiting waiting for you to say yes.
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  So people saw the call of God on my life even before I formally accepted it.
• 7:28
  Um it was not the path that I wanted.
• 7:31
  Uh my mother's a nurse, my dad's an accountant, my sister's a doctor.
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  So I thought I would go down the medical path.
• 7:39
  that was my preference.
• 7:40
  Um, but the Lord called me into ministry and even when it was time to go to college I said, God, know, I need a backup plan.
• 7:49
  At the time, I'm I'm in a small church, so I didn't I didn't know anything about full time ministry or anything like that.
• 7:54
  So I was gonna go and into the Pharm D programs that were just coming out around the time I was going to high school.
• 8:02
  So you could become a doctor of pharmacy in six years.
• 8:05
  I applied, got accepted to every school that I applied to.
• 8:08
  That was going to be my path.
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  And I went and I talked to my pastor, Reverend Dr.
• 8:13
  Clovesta Wimbish, and he said, Wha what are your plans?
• 8:16
  He asked me just like that.
• 8:17
  I said, I told him all my plans and what I was gonna do.
• 8:20
  Seminary, I'll do it, but later, you know.
• 8:23
  And and he said, Okay, he said, You can do all of that, but you know you'll end up in full time ministry.
• 8:28
  And he didn't say it in, you know, a harsh tone in any way.
• 8:32
  But when he said it, it was almost like somebody just took a knife and cut my heart.
• 8:35
  Like I felt such deep conviction, like I felt it viscerally, because I knew that the Lord wanted me to go to school for ministry.
• 8:42
  And so, um I left and I went home to my mother and I said, you know, I I know I've applied to all these schools, I know I have these plans, but I know I'm supposed to go to school for ministry.
• 8:54
  And so this was in almost like in July, right?
• 8:57
  Who's still accepting students in July?
• 9:00
  Got something in the mail from Liberty that they had a Bible program.
• 9:03
  So I said, Okay, well let me look into it.
• 9:05
  I looked into it.
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  That's how I ended up going to Liberty for a year.
• 9:08
  I transferred, but I went to Liberty for a year.
• 9:11
  because they had a Bible program.
• 9:13
  So all of my training is in Bible and ministry and uh that's that's kind of a condensed version of myself.
• 9:22
  What what I what I love is that y the call y came from outside.
• 9:27
  And so, you know, I for me it was an interior call later affirmed by folks outside.
• 9:34
  But for you it's the opposite.
• 9:35
  And I think sometimes uh people for or people being called to ministry don't understand that there's there's both sides of it.
• 9:43
  It's not just Eddie decides to go preach or Ben Coley decides to go preach.
• 9:47
  And it's not just somebody telling you you should go preach.
• 9:49
  There has to be both of it.
• 9:51
  And you talked about your your mom and your pastor.
• 9:54
  I wonder who are some of the other voices in your life that really kind of spoke into you and really helped open your eyes to this this is what God really is calling me to do in life.
• 10:07
  Yeah, so you know, it's so interesting.
• 10:09
  I would say my formation started early.
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  There's a there's a man who was like a grandfather to me.
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  He was a pastor.
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  He's now in the cloud of witnesses.
• 10:20
  Um but his name was Reverend Dr.
• 10:23
  Donald Cole.
• 10:25
  and he actually was the first person to give me Bib my first serious Bible study materials.
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  And I think at the time I probably was thirteen.
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  And he gave me a Strong's concordance, taught me how to use it.
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  He gave me a Thompson chain Bible.
• 10:44
  right, a Matthew Henry commentary with the Bible, right?
• 10:48
  Some basic tools and showed me how to use it.
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  He he took me through it and gave me access.
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  And these were coming out of his own library.
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  Right?
• 10:55
  So it started then 13.
• 10:58
  Um of course and I didn't mention this, but my pastor started sitting down with me as well.
• 11:03
  I think at the time might have been 14 and a half, 15, early 15, and he said, um, I want to walk through the doctrines of scripture with you.
• 11:12
  Right?
• 11:13
  So Then John Pastor John Robinson was another pastor in the area uh that really had an affinity for and a heart for young preachers.
• 11:22
  Um he definitely was another person that gave opportunities, uh spoke into my life and things of that nature.
• 11:29
  Um but I would say there were different people along the way.
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  I can go back to when even when I was very young, uh a woman by the name of Mother Lewis in the Kojik Church, right?
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  Uh she would speak to me.
• 11:41
  You know how people are, baby, God has a calling on your life, you know.
• 11:45
  So so there were many people along the way and and one there's another woman named Reverend Sinaida McFall is such uh a beautiful relationship that we have.
• 11:55
  She texts me every Sunday, even now, after listening to our eight o'clock service, she'll go to her church, but she'll text me every Sunday a word of encouragement or prayer or response to the message.
• 12:08
  She's known me Actually, even before it this is the way God works, I started going to her a music school that was in her house.
• 12:16
  It was called Shirley Abel School of Music, but they held it in her house when I was younger.
• 12:21
  Then we started going to the same church, the church that I preached my initial sermon in.
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  She was a minister there many years later.
• 12:29
  And so she's she heard me preach my first sermon and everything and she still texts me today.
• 12:34
  So there there there's so many people.
• 12:36
  Yeah, that's amazing.
• 12:37
  I wonder I wonder if you would jump all the way forward to what your y your contacts for ministry now and maybe give us a sense of w where you are, where you're serving, and um kind of what ministry looks like for you today.
• 12:54
  Okay.
• 12:55
  So I serve uh at Baptist Grove Church.
• 12:58
  I'm the senior pastor at Baptist Grove Church in Northwest Raleigh.
• 13:02
  We're in Raleigh, North Carolina.
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  Uh this congregation, actually last year we celebrated 150 years.
• 13:08
  So this year is our 151st year.
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  So this congregation started in 1875, uh, under a bush arbor.
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  That's how I got the name Grove, right?
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  It was four men that started a church under a bush arbor, no buildings or anything.
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  Um, and now obviously it has grown there, two buildings and things of that.
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  that nature.
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  this congregation is it initially it was a rural church um in a rural setting, but now it's more suburban.
• 13:35
  They built up a lot around the area, right?
• 13:39
  I came here in two thousand and twelve.
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  I came here on the heels of a toxic period in the congregation where there was a separation with my predecessor and some people left and things like that.
• 13:53
  So it was a congregation By their own uh, you know, confession and and admission, they would say we were in the wilderness, right, at the time that I came.
• 14:02
  So we're in the wilderness, but we're looking, we have hope, we have a desire, we know that God has greater for us, and there's some healing that needs to be done, but we believe that God is going to heal us and God is going to take us further than what He's ever taking taken us.
• 14:19
  And so when I came, they there was this was a congregation that yes there was there was some pain, but But they were they were also holding on to promise as well, I would say.
• 14:29
  And so when I came here, I wanted to come and learn the context.
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  I learned the context and then gave a vision.
• 14:37
  Um for our future, right?
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  Took me about a year at towards the latter part of my first year, I gave a vision for our future.
• 14:45
  And so that we have three pillars living in faith, living in fellowship, living to serve.
• 14:50
  Our vision was much longer at the time, uh, but then you know you have this long vision and it it sounds good and looks pretty on paper.
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  But then you ask people, what's the vision?
• 14:59
  Uh so our vision, like we had a long it it was more like a mission take, but it was our vision is to reach growing in power, committed followers of Jesus Christ.
• 15:08
  Who live life to the fullest by growing in relationship with God, strengthening relationships with others, and bringing life to the world through service, right?
• 15:17
  I can remember it.
• 15:18
  Yeah, it was in my heart, right?
• 15:20
  So now it is our vision is to live faithfully and fully in Christ.
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  Right?
• 15:25
  And we have three pillars: living in faith, living in fellowship, and living to serve, right?
• 15:31
  And we have three pillars: notice the repetition of living there.
• 15:33
  And we have three pillars: I'm I'm really big on existential discipleship.
• 15:37
  And we have three pillars: being a disciple, um, how we connect our faith with every area and every part of our lives, right?
• 15:46
  And we have three pillars: Um and as we are being and living into who we are as Christians, then we are able to make disciples simply in our being, right?
• 15:54
  And we have three pillars: And doing each and every day.
• 15:55
  And we have three pillars: So that's why the living Is emphasized in our pillars, living in faith, living in fellowship, living to serve, right?
• 16:03
  And we have three pillars: The faith aspect, obviously, we anchor what we do in the word of God.
• 16:08
  And we have three pillars: the church is anchored upon the word.
• 16:10
  And we have three pillars: And so the whole living in faith piece piece is knowing and obeying the truth as communicated in the inspired word of God.
• 16:19
  And we have three pillars: The fellowship piece, the community nature.
• 16:22
  And we have three pillars: Um, we're African American church, African American church in general, like the relational aspect, the family aspect, it's almost just organic.
• 16:29
  And we have three pillars: It's like there, right?
• 16:31
  And we have three pillars: But we really put an emphasis on it as well, right?
• 16:36
  And we have three pillars: I believe people grow better in circles than they do in roles, rows.
• 16:41
  And we have three pillars: And so it's important that people engage with one another, that you know each other.
• 16:46
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 16:46
  And we have three pillars: Um, that you know you share your story and somebody knows your story and you know their story, right?
• 16:53
  And we have three pillars: So the fellowship piece is loving all people as image bearers and fostering strong community amongst brothers and sisters in Christ, right?
• 17:00
  And we have three pillars: We want to love all people as image bearers, whether they're members of this church or not, whether they're Christians or not, we love them as image bearers.
• 17:07
  And we have three pillars: But then we foster strong community amongst the church, right?
• 17:11
  And we have three pillars: And then living to serve, discovering and using your gifts to advance God's mission in the world.
• 17:17
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 17:19
  And we have three pillars: the missio day, right?
• 17:20
  And we have three pillars: Uh, all of that.
• 17:21
  And we have three pillars: We want to be those who participate in the mission of God using our gifts.
• 17:26
  And we have three pillars: So those are our pillars.
• 17:27
  And we have three pillars: That's our structure here.
• 17:29
  And we have three pillars: We are intergenerational church, truly intergenerational.
• 17:32
  And we have three pillars: I can say that.
• 17:33
  And we have three pillars: Like that's a honest statement.
• 17:35
  And we have three pillars: it's not just something that's an ideal.
• 17:37
  And we have three pillars: We have people who will join this church.
• 17:40
  And we have three pillars: And they'll join and they are, you know, Gen Alpha, Gen Z and at the s on the same Sunday we'll also have a person who is you know, Gen X or uh silent generation even join the church.
• 17:53
  And we have three pillars: So let's be be careful when you call Gen X old.
• 17:57
  And we have three pillars: Let's be real careful with that because uh some of us on this uh on this call might be Gen X.
• 18:04
  And we have three pillars: Just I it's a possibility.
• 18:06
  And we have three pillars: So I I'm sure.
• 18:07
  And we have three pillars: Look, no offense at all, but Gen X is a lot older than Gen Alpha.
• 18:15
  And we have three pillars: Not old.
• 18:16
  And we have three pillars: every day, yeah.
• 18:16
  And we have three pillars: So I y I you one of the things that I I heard y you say, and there is a whole lot of great stuff that you offered, was that when you got there, really it was kind of a wilderness season in the life of the church.
• 18:30
  And we have three pillars: And y you got to a place a year later where you were able to announce a vision, maybe point some people in direction.
• 18:36
  And we have three pillars: What y what I'm finding in talking to pastors, what I'm finding talking often to people who are leading nonprofits, uh missions is is that a lot of them right now feel like they're in this wilderness era, this wilderness season.
• 18:52
  And we have three pillars: And so what what are some of the things that you did that that you could say these were some of the things that we did that really helped us kind of begin to move, even without a a well-stated vision, begin to move forward.
• 19:04
  And we have three pillars: What are the s some of the things that you look back now and you're like, I don't know how we survived that or I shouldn't have done that.
• 19:10
  And we have three pillars: But w but somehow we survived that.
• 19:12
  And we have three pillars: What what are some of those first year movements that allowed you to really to begin to make make motion happen?
• 19:21
  And we have three pillars: So that's a really good question.
• 19:23
  And we have three pillars: Um so anytime you come into a congregational context that's in like a wilderness season, I compare it to the children of Israel being in exile.
• 19:35
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 19:36
  And we have three pillars: And so I actually was teaching on this last year.
• 19:39
  And we have three pillars: You come in almost and you have to be like an exilic prophet.
• 19:42
  And we have three pillars: Okay.
• 19:43
  And we have three pillars: Uh the exilic prophet will identify, you have to identify, here's what happened.
• 19:49
  And we have three pillars: There's some anytime you have a congregation that divide they were divided or something, there were some pitfalls that you want to see a clear of.
• 19:56
  And we have three pillars: So you have to acknowledge that.
• 19:58
  And we have three pillars: You can't you cannot, you know, uh try to hide any of that or sweep it under the rug, because you don't want to fall in those same pits again.
• 20:08
  And we have three pillars: But one of the things that the exilic prophets did as well is they called people and reminded them of the hope, right?
• 20:16
  And we have three pillars: And that is so critical.
• 20:18
  And we have three pillars: It is so important that despite where we are right now or where you have been, there is hope for greater, right?
• 20:25
  And we have three pillars: And that's one of the primary things.
• 20:27
  And we have three pillars: When you come in, if you're a leader, you have to remind people of the hope that we have.
• 20:31
  And we have three pillars: And then you have to set their minds on a greater vision.
• 20:36
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 20:36
  And we have three pillars: And I'm not necessar necessarily talking about um, you know, the particular vision for ministry in your church that you're gonna develop, but just God's greater vision for them.
• 20:47
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 20:48
  And we have three pillars: So one of the first things that I did, I wanted to focus this church on what is the purpose for the church and what is God's desire for the church, what are God's promises to his church, right?
• 21:02
  And we have three pillars: So just the church capital C, right?
• 21:05
  And we have three pillars: before we even started talking about the particular, right?
• 21:09
  And we have three pillars: To remind us that what we experience in a local church setting, some of it may align and some of it might might not align.
• 21:18
  And we have three pillars: But here is what God's design is for it.
• 21:21
  And we have three pillars: So that was one of the first things that I did.
• 21:23
  And we have three pillars: Next thing is looking at your culture, right?
• 21:26
  And we have three pillars: What is the culture?
• 21:27
  And we have three pillars: So we I took the church through this book called Cracking Your Church's Culture Code.
• 21:33
  And we have three pillars: And the reason I did that is because sometimes, at least in our context, and probably in a lot of churches, but in the Baptist church context, sometimes the expectation is that we are in this wilderness period.
• 21:46
  And we have three pillars: We're bringing in, um, we voted in the pastor, right?
• 21:50
  And we have three pillars: So there's some hopes that we have that this pastor has what it takes to bring us out of the wilderness.
• 21:57
  And we have three pillars: But the perspective places all of the onus upon the superstar pastor And it does not take into account our responsibility as parishioners and as a church to have a culture where the vision can actually live and breathe.
• 22:12
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 22:14
  And we have three pillars: So I wanted us to assess what is the culture of our church right now?
• 22:18
  And we have three pillars: So that book, Cracking Your Church's Culture Code, I think I did it during a Bible study, Cracking Your Church's Culture Code.
• 22:23
  And we have three pillars: And it was great because it really started asking probative questions to the congregation.
• 22:32
  And we have three pillars: about what is our culture, why is our culture this, and then what are the things that we need to change in our culture?
• 22:39
  And we have three pillars: So that when this new vision is given, this new vision actually has a chance to take off.
• 22:44
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 22:45
  And we have three pillars: Because culture is like the oxygen.
• 22:46
  And we have three pillars: It can kill it, right?
• 22:48
  And we have three pillars: and so we started talking through some of those things as well.
• 22:51
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 22:51
  And we have three pillars: So that was so looking at the vision uh of God's church, looking at our culture, right?
• 22:58
  And we have three pillars: The next thing I would say is you have to make sure that you are with the people, right?
• 23:03
  And we have three pillars: You have to make sure you're with the people.
• 23:04
  And we have three pillars: I have an itinerary speaking ministry, but that first year you have to make sure that you're here, you're present, and even beyond.
• 23:13
  And we have three pillars: Did you I say first year, but for me it was first year.
• 23:16
  And we have three pillars: But you gotta make sure that you're here and present.
• 23:18
  And we have three pillars: Being with people, uh it's the speed of trust.
• 23:22
  And we have three pillars: If people trust you, they'll follow the vision if they don't trust you, but you have to build that trust.
• 23:27
  And we have three pillars: Um Just because you are called the pastor doesn't mean you actually have become the pastor, right?
• 23:34
  And we have three pillars: There's a different I y say that one more time 'cause I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with.
• 23:39
  And we have three pillars: The Just because you have the title and you are called pastor does not mean you have actually become the pastor experientially, where people say, This person has a shepherd's heart.
• 23:51
  And we have three pillars: I trust them as my shepherd, and I'm willing to follow them as a shepherd of this congregation.
• 23:57
  And we have three pillars: And that takes time.
• 23:58
  And we have three pillars: That takes being with people, that takes having conversations.
• 24:02
  And we have three pillars: And the other thing it takes is you have to go through some storms, right?
• 24:07
  And we have three pillars: You have to go through some storms and people have to see how you handle those moments, right?
• 24:14
  And we have three pillars: That builds the trust as well.
• 24:16
  And we have three pillars: And so going through storms, storms are difficult.
• 24:18
  And we have three pillars: They are obstacles, but they are also opportunities.
• 24:21
  And we have three pillars: So we had some bumpy, you know, some bumpy experiences initially within my first three years here.
• 24:28
  And we have three pillars: There were some bumpy moments, right?
• 24:31
  And we have three pillars: but just like Moses, right, the Bible says the the people Of Israel were baptized, not into God, but they were baptized into Moses through the crossing of the Red Sea.
• 24:41
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 24:42
  And we have three pillars: You're gonna have some Red Sea moments that are difficult.
• 24:45
  And we have three pillars: People will follow your leadership and trust your leadership more as they see you handle those moments in a godly way.
• 24:53
  And we have three pillars: So there were some moments where my character, as far as how I was going to respond to toxicity, was tested.
• 25:04
  And we have three pillars: And if I had responded to the toxicity in the outside what I'll say just basically a sinful way, in a fleshly incarnal way, that would not have um encouraged the trust that was needed for them to follow my leadership.
• 25:19
  And we have three pillars: So there were times where you have to pray.
• 25:22
  And we have three pillars: I had to pray, Lord, give me the ability to respond to this in a Christian way or a godly way, Christ-like way.
• 25:30
  And we have three pillars: Um Even though in my flesh I want to respond differently.
• 25:35
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 25:35
  And we have three pillars: And that's not easy.
• 25:36
  And we have three pillars: So there's some, you know, the young people use the term, you know, you took an L or something like that.
• 25:42
  And we have three pillars: Well, sometimes you have to, right?
• 25:47
  And we have three pillars: you have to, right, in order to demonstrate to people here is what a Christ like response is, here's what Christ like interaction is, and you still, though, are directing them towards God's vision for the church.
• 26:02
  And we have three pillars: And so that helped tremendously.
• 26:04
  And we have three pillars: Um, I had to there were there were there were a lot of moments and some bumpy moments early on, but people would come to me after I handled a certain thing, and they sometimes they're quiet publicly, but then they'll come and say, I really appreciate how you handle that, right?
• 26:19
  And we have three pillars: And it may not seem like much, but it is very significant for your leadership later on.
• 26:25
  And we have three pillars: I think it's helpful to if you're someone who is a pastor, maybe going into a new context, just to be reminded that if you don't know the specific and particular vision for this local congregation, there's still work to do where you can you can position the church's theological imagination towards the God's purpose of and for the church.
• 26:51
  And we have three pillars: Yes.
• 26:52
  And we have three pillars: I think that's a really helpful starting place if you don't know what to do.
• 26:56
  And we have three pillars: And then I also think this assessment of culture is is essential.
• 27:00
  And we have three pillars: Um every church has its own particular flavor and makeup and history and people and all of those things contribute to yeah uh the image that I have in mind is just you know John chapter one.
• 27:14
  And we have three pillars: The the word became flesh and moved into this particular neighborhood in Eugene Peterson's translation.
• 27:20
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 27:20
  And we have three pillars: to know the neighborhood.
• 27:21
  And we have three pillars: You've got to be around it and and kind of see what's in in that.
• 27:25
  And we have three pillars: The phrase that you use though, I thought this was interesting.
• 27:28
  And we have three pillars: Um, the the you need to assess that so that the vision can live and breathe in the culture.
• 27:35
  And we have three pillars: And you said the phrase culture is like oxygen and it can i what what do what do you mean by that?
• 27:40
  And we have three pillars: Like there's a whole way of thinking about culture that's there.
• 27:43
  And we have three pillars: I wonder kind of I've never heard anybody say that.
• 27:46
  And we have three pillars: So e explain that.
• 27:47
  And we have three pillars: breathe.
• 27:48
  And we have three pillars: Culture's like the air you breathe, right?
• 27:50
  And we have three pillars: Um and it and I'll say this, it culture can stink, but when you've been in a particular place for so long, you become used to the stench.
• 27:59
  And we have three pillars: So it no longer stinks to you, right?
• 28:02
  And we have three pillars: But the other piece with that is you can have a great, I mean, strong particular vision for ministry.
• 28:10
  And we have three pillars: Your vision can be great.
• 28:12
  And we have three pillars: But that vision will not live, it will not take off because the culture can actually kill it.
• 28:20
  And we have three pillars: So sometimes we believe we got you know, it's the vision or we don't have direction.
• 28:24
  And we have three pillars: Or we it's not always that.
• 28:26
  And we have three pillars: Sometimes you have that, but the culture is just toxic, the interactions, the trust is not there, so the vision can't take off.
• 28:34
  And we have three pillars: Yeah.
• 28:34
  And we have three pillars: Somebody once said culture eats vision for breakfast.
• 28:38
  And we have three pillars: yes, it does.
• 28:39
  And we have three pillars: Absolutely.
• 28:40
  And we have three pillars: And that is absolutely true.
• 28:42
  And we have three pillars: And so as a new leader, it's it's taking time to really learn and assess the culture.
• 28:49
  And we have three pillars: And with that, it requires patience is not necessarily a virtue of mine, but it does require patience.
• 28:56
  And we have three pillars: You know, even as we are ministering to others as pastors, God is also forming and shaping us through this work, right?
• 29:03
  And we have three pillars: And so um one of the things that we have to do when we are new in a context is is we have to crucify the fleshly desire to perform well quickly.
• 29:20
  And we have three pillars: That that you're looking at certain metrics and targets because you know, we live in a metric and target based and you gotta get to this place quickly, you gotta do this, you gotta do because there's a pressure that you feel to prove that whether I was the right selection of the bishop or I was the right selection of the church, I wanna prove it.
• 29:39
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 29:40
  And we have three pillars: At the end of the day, you have to crucify that desire because it's going to require some patience and you're going to have to learn context, you're gonna have to learn culture.
• 29:49
  And we have three pillars: And understand that even when it doesn't seem like you have forward mom momentum, you are gaining momentum because you're doing the right thing in in the right season.
• 29:58
  And we have three pillars: And and even, you know, if you're as you assess sometimes the culture can be healthy, it can be toxic, it can be somewhere in between.
• 30:05
  And we have three pillars: Regardless, culture is one of those it's it's like a houseplant.
• 30:09
  And we have three pillars: either you have to kind of bring it back to life or sometimes you just have to keep watering it and nurturing it.
• 30:14
  And we have three pillars: Some of my hardest moments in ministry have been where I I've realized whether it was staff culture or church culture, I've just kind of taken my hands off the wheel or forgotten to to tend to it.
• 30:25
  And we have three pillars: It but it's part of that and you know, when you talk about, you know, not responding toxically sometimes, what you what you're really doing in those moments is instead of empowering a particular way of being, you're starting to short circuit that way of of being.
• 30:42
  And we have three pillars: You're beginning to prune the plant in a certain direction.
• 30:45
  And we have three pillars: And so I you know, I I I think yeah I'm just sitting here thinking, yeah, I I've just been here for a year and I think I'm s I'm just now beginning to figure out cultural pieces.
• 30:55
  And we have three pillars: So yeah.
• 30:57
  And we have three pillars: And even down to ge ge geographical aspects, right?
• 31:01
  And we have three pillars: So I'm from j like is mentioned, just outside of the D C area.
• 31:05
  And we have three pillars: I left the D C area and went to North, New Jersey.
• 31:09
  And we have three pillars: I was serving a church in New Jersey and then went from New Jersey to North Carolina.
• 31:14
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 31:15
  And we have three pillars: Completely different context, right?
• 31:18
  And we have three pillars: And so even that can impact ministry, right?
• 31:22
  And we have three pillars: It can impact How people engage and interact, right?
• 31:26
  And we have three pillars: When I went to New Jersey, if you go into a place of business, they didn't speak really, you know.
• 31:32
  And we have three pillars: And uh I'll never forget we went to a DSW in New Jersey.
• 31:35
  And we have three pillars: This is when I realized I was in a different place from Maryland.
• 31:38
  And we have three pillars: And they really didn't speak at all.
• 31:40
  And we have three pillars: And my wife purchased something and it wasn't, you know, thank you for shopping with us.
• 31:44
  And we have three pillars: The bag was just handed to us.
• 31:46
  And we have three pillars: And my wife was kind of frustrated by that, so she said, Well, thank you.
• 31:50
  And we have three pillars: And he said, You're welcome.
• 31:55
  And we have three pillars: And so that was in New Jersey.
• 31:56
  And we have three pillars: But then you come here and people, you know, speak and or they'll wave and everything.
• 32:01
  And we have three pillars: So different context, right?
• 32:02
  And we have three pillars: Um, and so it's learning the context and then ultimately you will also be shaped in some ways by the context as well, right?
• 32:11
  And we have three pillars: So I wonder I wonder if you could reflect on kind of you know not just the very beginning of a ministry and kind of the first year or two of assessing where you are and casting vision and assessing culture and establishing yourself not just as the title pastor, but you become the the the pastor of the people.
• 32:30
  And we have three pillars: Now you're fourteen years into this in this one congregation.
• 32:34
  And we have three pillars: I wonder I remember thinking, you know the first year or two I was in a lead pastor position and I thought, you know, can I do this?
• 32:44
  And we have three pillars: And then it's how long can I do this?
• 32:46
  And we have three pillars: Is the question that comes quickly after that.
• 32:48
  And we have three pillars: And uh and the the wisdom that Eddie gave me that I wasn't great at following was pace yourself.
• 32:56
  And we have three pillars: he actually gave it to my wife.
• 32:57
  And we have three pillars: He told my wife to he said, remind Chris to pace himself Yeah, that's right.
• 33:04
  And we have three pillars: That's right.
• 33:05
  And we have three pillars: So I wonder for you, as you're now, you know, kind of past the sprint of beginning and now you're into the marathon portion of ministry.
• 33:13
  And we have three pillars: How how are you sustaining the work, you know, over the longer period of time and how how is your mindset of your role changing as you're as you're into your fourteenth, fifteenth year uh in a context Yeah, no, that that's a wonderful question.
• 33:32
  And we have three pillars: So what I will say is we have experienced rapid growth, right, as a church.
• 33:41
  And we have three pillars: And so I've seen the different iterations of growth in this one congregation, right?
• 33:47
  And we have three pillars: And with each stage and each level of growth, it has demanded a change in Even my even my leadership, right?
• 33:57
  And we have three pillars: And and what it is that I'm focusing on what I need to do.
• 34:01
  And we have three pillars: So I'll say when I first came on, I was involved in the weeds.
• 34:04
  And we have three pillars: We didn't have as large of a staff as we have.
• 34:06
  And we have three pillars: So I was involved in the weeds of every just about everything, right?
• 34:10
  And we have three pillars: Um, and then as we began to grow, I needed to bring on additional staff members, right?
• 34:16
  And we have three pillars: And as we brought on additional staff members though, my natural inclination was to still be in the weeds with just about everything.
• 34:24
  And we have three pillars: And and I realize that one is not first, it's not good for the congregation, right?
• 34:29
  And we have three pillars: It's the Exodus eighteen piece, right?
• 34:31
  And we have three pillars: Jethro, Moses, this isn't good for the people, but it's also not good for you either, right?
• 34:36
  And we have three pillars: Um, and so I have learned how to better delegate and trust as well that when I do delegate and that people are going to take care of it in a strong way without me necessarily you know, being as hands on and in the weeds in it, right?
• 34:57
  And we have three pillars: Um, and and that requires, like I said, it requires trust and I will admit I was just talking about this yesterday or day before, that it does make you uncomfortable initially, right?
• 35:08
  And we have three pillars: And it made me uncomfortable.
• 35:10
  And we have three pillars: But I I know that the growth of the congregation would have been hindered if I did not adapt, right?
• 35:17
  And we have three pillars: So the congregation is still able to grow because I don't feel like I have to have everything in my hands and doing everything.
• 35:26
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 35:27
  And we have three pillars: Go ahead.
• 35:28
  And we have three pillars: the hard part of that for me has been through the years.
• 35:31
  And we have three pillars: It's not just not in my hand, but not doing it the way that Eddie Rester would have done it.
• 35:35
  And we have three pillars: The Eddie Rester way.
• 35:37
  And we have three pillars: Trusting people that, well, they're they're gonna do it the way that it needs to be done, that Christ has called them to do.
• 35:45
  And we have three pillars: And it's not the Eddie Rester way.
• 35:47
  And we have three pillars: And that's okay.
• 35:48
  And we have three pillars: Uh and that that sometimes is hard.
• 35:50
  And we have three pillars: So what you know, I use a GPS just about to get everywhere, Waze, right?
• 35:56
  And we have three pillars: And what's so fascinating with Waze is that you can take different roads to get to the same place.
• 36:02
  And we have three pillars: And it's trusting that people may take different roads, but you will land at the same place and do not expect them to use your same route to accomplish whatever needs to be accomplished.
• 36:15
  And we have three pillars: And that you're absolutely right about that.
• 36:17
  And we have three pillars: Yes, that's that is something that requires growth and maturity as a leader, right?
• 36:22
  And we have three pillars: So that's that's one thing I would say.
• 36:25
  And we have three pillars: The other thing, um, you know, COVID man was it was rough on us.
• 36:29
  And we have three pillars: COVID was COVID was a beast, right?
• 36:32
  And we have three pillars: Excuse me.
• 36:33
  And we have three pillars: Um and my leaders came to me during COVID and said, uh, Pastor, we feel like you need to start taking a longer vacation.
• 36:46
  And we have three pillars: Ha ha ha.
• 36:49
  And we have three pillars: I didn't know whether I should be offended or not.
• 36:51
  And we have three pillars: Like what are you saying?
• 36:56
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 36:58
  And we have three pillars: We exactly.
• 37:00
  And we have three pillars: But um I saw that God had given them insight and wisdom into a gap area for me.
• 37:08
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 37:08
  And we have three pillars: Pastor, we know you love the church.
• 37:09
  And we have three pillars: You love but you also need to practice Sabbath more and rest more.
• 37:13
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 37:14
  And we have three pillars: And so I started doing that.
• 37:16
  And we have three pillars: And I d you know.
• 37:18
  And we have three pillars: You don't realize how much you need it until you're actually doing it.
• 37:22
  And we have three pillars: Of course, in scripture we know God says we do, but you don't realize how much you needed until you're actually doing it.
• 37:29
  And we have three pillars: And so from a sustainability standpoint, after COVID and during COVID and after COVID, I actually take a month vacation.
• 37:37
  And we have three pillars: Um, and it's usually it was in September, now it's August, but I I take off, right?
• 37:44
  And we have three pillars: And that has actually been really good for me.
• 37:47
  And we have three pillars: But not just for me, it's been good for the congregation as well, right?
• 37:51
  And we have three pillars: I have a mentor of mine, actually Bishop Walter Scott Thomas, he says, every pastor is an interim pastor.
• 37:59
  And we have three pillars: Every pastor.
• 38:00
  And we have three pillars: Whether for us in our Baptist tradition, whether it's gonna be God calls you home, you leave, or the church votes you out.
• 38:07
  And we have three pillars: But you're not gonna be there forever.
• 38:10
  And we have three pillars: And so a mark of good leadership is the ability for the church to thrive and to function in your absence effectively.
• 38:18
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 38:19
  And we have three pillars: And so that piece right there, when I'm out and the church is thriving and still growing and doing well, that's a great thing and it's great for them, right?
• 38:30
  And we have three pillars: So that's something else connected to sustainability in ministry.
• 38:34
  And we have three pillars: Um I we we have to say we have to learn how to get away, we have to learn how to take breaks.
• 38:39
  And we have three pillars: And we have to we can't wait till everything is done, because everything will never be done.
• 38:45
  And we have three pillars: Yeah.
• 38:46
  And we have three pillars: So you can't wait to say, when I get to this and this No, you just have to take the break.
• 38:51
  And we have three pillars: And trust, and I learned during COVID as well.
• 38:54
  And we have three pillars: God, you know, he says, Upon this rock I build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail.
• 38:59
  And we have three pillars: I'll tell you, uh I don't know, you know, other pastors and their experiences and talking to some I know that this resonates.
• 39:05
  And we have three pillars: But when I first heard that we were shutting down, And you know, we were gonna go to virtual.
• 39:13
  And we have three pillars: I have to be honest, uh I even though I sounded courageous and bold and d I I looked back at the video and I stood up and I We're gonna continue to do ministry well and honestly, like I was quaking inside, fearful.
• 39:26
  And we have three pillars: I was like, God, I don't know how this is gonna work.
• 39:28
  And we have three pillars: And the Lord just continued to sustain, not only sustain, but also the church didn't just survive, but it thrived during COVID.
• 39:36
  And we have three pillars: And God really showed me in that this is my church.
• 39:40
  And we have three pillars: Right.
• 39:40
  And we have three pillars: Uh it was here long before you got here.
• 39:43
  And we have three pillars: It's gonna be here even after you depart.
• 39:46
  And we have three pillars: I'm going to take care of my church.
• 39:49
  And we have three pillars: And so you can trust God and as a pastor that that God's gonna take care of the church and that really does help to free you as well.
• 39:56
  And we have three pillars: So that's connected to sustainability, right?
• 39:59
  And we have three pillars: Other than that.
• 40:00
  And we have three pillars: I love that.
• 40:01
  And we have three pillars: Delegation, rest, and then just remembering that the church ultimately is is God's church.
• 40:07
  And we have three pillars: It's not your church.
• 40:07
  And we have three pillars: You're an interim pastor.
• 40:09
  And we have three pillars: Every pastor is an interim pastor.
• 40:11
  And we have three pillars: I think that's I think that's super valuable.
• 40:14
  And we have three pillars: Eddie, you have any final questions for Ben Cole?
• 40:17
  And we have three pillars: I I I think you know, one of the things that I I'd be interested in is what how how do you you're getting away, you're delegating, taking Sabbath, but but what other pieces of formation do you are important to you are part of part of your work?
• 40:34
  And we have three pillars: A deep, constant prayer life.
• 40:37
  And we have three pillars: And I'm that piece right there is so important for prayer first.
• 40:42
  And we have three pillars: Um everything that we do, the Bible says, you know, apart from me you can do nothing, right?
• 40:49
  And we have three pillars: And dealing with John fifteen, abiding.
• 40:52
  And we have three pillars: A prayer life is so important for a leader, right?
• 40:56
  And we have three pillars: To actually go before the Lord, to hear from God, not just for your sermons and your messages.
• 41:02
  And we have three pillars: But for God's will for the congregation in the church.
• 41:06
  And we have three pillars: Well, God, what do you want?
• 41:07
  And we have three pillars: Right?
• 41:08
  And we have three pillars: Because I truly believe God gives grace for what He desires, right?
• 41:13
  And we have three pillars: And what He places in our hands.
• 41:15
  And we have three pillars: So, God, is this your assignment?
• 41:17
  And we have three pillars: What is it that you want us to do?
• 41:18
  And we have three pillars: So I have a deep prayer life, right?
• 41:22
  And we have three pillars: Uh, and and reading the word, you know, a devotional life.
• 41:25
  And we have three pillars: That's not just reading for a sermon or reading for a message, but reading The word is a living word for me, right?
• 41:33
  And we have three pillars: What does God desire?
• 41:35
  And we have three pillars: The other piece I would say is um community, practicing community, right?
• 41:41
  And we have three pillars: Being you don't want people just to engage in community.
• 41:44
  And we have three pillars: You want to be engaged as well.
• 41:46
  And we have three pillars: You need friends, you need to talk to people, you need to have relationships, mentorships, that kinda.
• 41:50
  And we have three pillars: So being in community is very important as well, right?
• 41:54
  And we have three pillars: One of the things that I say that I do now that I I hope pastors will do even more.
• 42:00
  And we have three pillars: And I'll tell you the story of how I started doing it.
• 42:04
  And we have three pillars: I was sitting in worship and it sounded like noise to me.
• 42:09
  And we have three pillars: It's like a it's just like it's just cacophony and it's like, what in the world is going on here?
• 42:14
  And we have three pillars: And the Lord said, I need you to get away with me.
• 42:17
  And we have three pillars: I was about to go preach and I was just hearing noise.
• 42:19
  And we have three pillars: I need you to get away with me.
• 42:21
  And we have three pillars: Okay.
• 42:22
  And we have three pillars: So God wanted me to go to a retreat center, right?
• 42:26
  And we have three pillars: I I that wasn't a practice of mine.
• 42:28
  And we have three pillars: So I was like, you know, who's going to a retreat center?
• 42:30
  And we have three pillars: So I actually called the week I was supposed to go.
• 42:33
  And we have three pillars: I was like, you have any rooms?
• 42:34
  And we have three pillars: They were like, no, we don't have any available.
• 42:36
  And we have three pillars: I was like, wow, I guess people do go to retreat centers.
• 42:39
  And we have three pillars: And uh when I called though, I said, I here I'm gonna leave my name and my number with you and if anybody cancels, just call me.
• 42:49
  And we have three pillars: That evening they called me back and said, someone canceled.
• 42:53
  And we have three pillars: So I went to the retreat center in the middle of the woods.
• 42:57
  And we have three pillars: Mm.
• 42:58
  And we have three pillars: peaceful place just to be with God.
• 43:02
  And we have three pillars: And the and I thought I was going there for one one reason, right?
• 43:05
  And we have three pillars: I I just turned 40, so I was like, you know, I'm gonna go and God, you've done a lot in 40 years.
• 43:10
  And we have three pillars: So download for me what it is that you want me to do for you in this next couple of years.
• 43:16
  And we have three pillars: And so I w but when I went, it was like the Lord had a different agenda to do a work in my own heart and a work in my own soul.
• 43:25
  And we have three pillars: And so from that moment, right Retreating and getting away to be with God in a still and silent place.
• 43:33
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: 10.
• 43:36
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Be still and know that I'm God.
• 43:37
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Right?
• 43:39
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: That is a practice that I would encourage every pastor and every leader.
• 43:45
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: We are surrounded by noise, right?
• 43:49
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: In life in general, but definitely pastors, we're in meetings, we're in worship services, we're doing, we go home.
• 43:56
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: So you need a a place of stillness where you can actually come before the Lord and and just allow the Lord to work and show you your own soul in the solitude and all of that.
• 44:06
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: So practicing solitude and retreating is another one for sure.
• 44:10
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Um, so scripture intake, prayer, retreat, community.
• 44:15
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Um, and as I as you you know, I teach spiritual formation.
• 44:19
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: So there are others like journaling and things like that.
• 44:22
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: But um It's very important that we tend to our own soul.
• 44:26
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: When I was away in that place, God spoke to me and said, Never make ministry an end.
• 44:34
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: I am always the goal.
• 44:36
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: And ministry is not the end, it is a tool by which you are being shaped.
• 44:43
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Because what is most important is not simply what you accomplish in ministry and everything else.
• 44:48
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: What is most important is who you are becoming in me.
• 44:52
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: And so We're constantly becoming, so we're being shaped.
• 44:55
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: I think that's a great just a great word and a good word probably to end on.
• 45:01
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Incredibly grateful to you, Ben Coley, for her who you are, for what you do, for your ministry, but also for this conversation and the ways in which you've inspired us uh today with uh just kind of opening up how you think about these things.
• 45:16
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Incredibly grateful for you, man.
• 45:17
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Really, really grateful.
• 45:18
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: grateful to meet you.
• 45:19
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: for me to to share.
• 45:21
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Um, thank you so much.
• 45:22
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: This has been an honor.
• 45:23
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Nice to meet you, Eddie.
• 45:25
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: I've heard so much about you.
• 45:27
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: And Chris, good to see you again, my brother.
• 45:28
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: I hope family's well.
• 45:30
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Likewise.
• 45:30
  Where you can practice Psalm 46: Likewise.