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Meet Democrats' Go-To Trump Stand In · Pod Save America

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, we don't want to leave you high and
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: dry and contentless while we're on break. So please enjoy
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: this excerpt from an interview we did for one of
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: our subscription shows with Philippe Reines. He is the man
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: who played Donald Trump in debate prep for both Hillary
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Clinton and Kamala Harris. He didn't have to do it
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: with Joe Biden because Joe Biden was like, I got this.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: It was one of my favorite conversations in a long time.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: It was about what it took to prepare to beat Trump,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: lessons from pretending to be Trump so long. And I've
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: known Philippe for 20 years. We shared an office when
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: I first worked for Hillary Clinton. He had a lot
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: of fascinating insights that came from playing Trump that are
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: just great stories, but also really helpful for thinking about
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: how we continue to, you know, try to beat him.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: So here's a preview of that conversation. And if you
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: want to hear the full episode and get a lot
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: more great stuff, subscribe to Friends of the Pod at cricket.com
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: slash friends.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Here's Philippe.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: When I was 23 years old, I was inexplicably and
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: incorrectly hired to be a speechwriter for Hillary Clinton. And
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I shared an office with who at the time to
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: me was a grizzled veteran, but who was just a
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: young man who barely spoke or made eye contact with me.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: He is a longtime advisor to Hillary Clinton. He also
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: has a legendary role in two debate prep seasons. He
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: played Donald Trump with both Hillary Clinton and Kamala Harris,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: longtime communications advisor and staffer to Hillary.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Clinton, Philippe Reines.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Welcome. Hi, Jonathan Lovett.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: How are you? Good to see you.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about debate prep, which is the
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: ostensible reason we're here. But first, I want to talk
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: about your first impression of me.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I didn't think... It might have been inexplicable, but
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: it quickly became clear that it was correct. I mean, you...
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: We're talented. Your work ethic was similar to mine, which
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: people can take what they want, whether it was high
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: or low. We sat in a room with six people,
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: and we were not type A's. We were probably more
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: in the lower end of productivity. So I think we
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: had kindred spirits on that. I could see your screen
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: because of the way we sat. But no, you fit
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: right in.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: You really didn't talk to me for like six months.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: You do know that, right?
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: Like there were six of us in that room and
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: you barely, you had the corner.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I'm surprised it was only six months. That's short. That's short.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: But look at us now.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: Look at us now. All right. So let's talk about
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: debate prep.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: How did it come to be your job to play
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Trump with Hillary?
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Who thought that was a good idea?
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: So it was Megan Rooney. who, you know, Megan Rooney
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: is a longtime speechwriter for not just Hillary, but she
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: worked in the White House for most recently President Biden,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: for President Obama, some for Mrs. Obama. She's, you know,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: everyone of name in the last 10 years, 15 years.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: And she, at some point early 2016, said, you know
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: what you should do? You'd be good for to play
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Trump in debate prep. And I said, you know what?
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: You're not crazy. And she said, You've been practicing for
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: this your whole life. You just didn't know it. Which was,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: you know, accurate but backhanded. Why?
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Why did that mean? Why have you been practicing?
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: That I had just had a Trump in me that
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: hadn't been released yet.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: But see, this is the thing that's so interesting. Like,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I agree with that, but I don't know why. Like,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: what is it you... There's something... You're not like Trump
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: at all, interpersonally, but there is something about you, like
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: a feral understanding of media.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: There's something.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: There's something, there's a brokenness to you that explains why
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: you're naturally suited to Trump.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: So what is it?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: So the closest I've ever come is someone said that
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: they thought I had eye to tech aspects. Usually it's
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: meant as, it's associated with photographic memory. That's not what
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: it is, but it also can often be, you're able
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: to assume the perspective of someone no matter how horrible
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: it is, like a FBI criminal behaviorist kind of thing.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: I think there's a little bit of that. But, you know,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't be as good playing Mitt Romney.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I couldn't pretend to be a policy guy. There is
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: something about. And the reason why it made so much
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: sense with Hillary is because she was just innately bothered
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: by my presence, no matter the circumstance. So I really
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: just had to show up and she would already be irked.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Is true there is something about you that that you're
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: so you're indispensable and yet your presence does irritate her
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: that's such an interesting part of your dynamic over a
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: long time was true when i was was there you
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: also kind of have i think there's something about the
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: way in which you understand have a love for kind
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: of tabloid media and also you like kind of you
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: appreciate and loathe journalism at the same time just from
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: having been a communications person for a long time like
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: And you're a creature of New York media too. Like
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: there is, there is a way in which you were
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: prepping for this.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone likes their press
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: person because it's not like you walk in and said, Oh,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: I have a dozen roses to deliver to you. It's,
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: you know, you come in and you're like, Oh, someone
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: saw that you didn't leave a tip on a bill.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: It's never good news. Plus I at times enjoyed, you know,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: kind of needling her being irreverent, which, you know, You're
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: not paid much on the Hill, so you need to
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: get your entertainment where you can. But yeah, you are
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: used to... It's an adversarial job. You find yourself, if
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: not yelling, then yelling at Jason. And that's not too
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: far from what Trump was in 2015.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: So talk about prep.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: What are you doing both to know what he'd say
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: and to inhabit the job?
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: So it was a little different. So in 2015... if
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: you remember, he actually participated in the primary debates. And
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: there were, I think, 12 of them. He went to
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: 11 once. He boycotted. I don't remember why. So there
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: was a tremendous amount of material to watch. I watched
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: each one three times. Once, just watched the whole thing.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Second time, I watched just him, whether it was him
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: speaking or him being spoken to. And the third time,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: I did it with the microphone, with the audio off,
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: just to watch, you know, the gesticulations and the facial features.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: And it was a treasure trove. And it was, you know,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: the first thing that stood out, and I think it
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: even 10 years later stands out, is that his language
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: was very unique. You know, you watch him, and obviously
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: he's not exactly a thespian, but because he says something
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: so plainly, or whatever you want to describe it, they're
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: it came across as honesty. If you look at word
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: clouds from 2016, the two that people walked away from
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: describing Trump more than anything were honesty and strength. And honestly,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: he's the world's biggest liar, but the honesty came from
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: just speaking plainly. And when you're on stage with nine
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: people and almost all of them are either sitting public
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: figures in the Senate or governors or past, they all
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: have that stilted speech. So, you know, they would say,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: the moderator would say, Mr. Trump, I'm going to start
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: with you. Why did you say this crazy thing yesterday?
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: And he would say, it wasn't crazy. I'm 100% right.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: You know what? I could have even said it worse.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: They would say, okay, Mr. Trump, we now go to
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Senator Rubio. Senator Rubio, tell us about your plan for immigration. Well,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: I want to thank the University of Wisconsin for having
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: us here. I love cheese. Go Badgers. I sponsored S2907
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: with 74, you know, the whole, and the moderates say, well, Mr. Trump,
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: what do you have to say? I don't know what
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: he just said. I'm going to build a wall. I'm
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: going to build a wall 30 feet. You know, okay,
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: you don't like that 50 feet. You can make it
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: 50 feet. And you laugh at it, but it's damn
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: straight and it's damn honest. You could call it straight talking.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: It might be stupid talking, but it's also straight talking.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: And people who, you know, we work for people who
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: are trained to think before they speak. And that became
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: a liability.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: So one aspect of PrEP that I don't know that
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: you've talked about is the role McDonald's played.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: How did you.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I went a little overboard. I didn't do it as much. Well,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: actually in 2015, I think I was already pretty overweight. So,
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: you know, he's six, three, God knows how many hundreds
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: of pounds I bought two and three quarter inch lift shoes,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: which is the highest I could find. And then a platform.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: I couldn't do the hair last year. I was skinnier
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: and I went on a McDonald's binge. It was really
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: just an excuse to have McDonald's, but it became like
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: super-sized me. I would, in the months leading up to it,
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: just three, four nights a week, have two Big Macs,
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: a shake, large fries. And I put on, I think,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: 34 pounds.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Oh my God. It's like Raging Bull.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: And I went really heavy on the makeup this time.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: The hair, I talked to Lupe, the woman who's done
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: my hair for 20 years. She said, if you get
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: a wig, she said, we can't change your color hair.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: It'll be permanent. It'll be screwed up. If you get
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: a wig, like a professional wig, I can color it,
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: but even that won't be great. It's just clear that
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: it would be too SNL-ish. But from the forehead down,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: it was pretty accurate. I dug up my Trump watch,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: my Trump cufflinks, my I had given, after 2016, I
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: put him in one of those bags and he pulled
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: the air out and everything flayed down to this. I
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: had given that to Ron Klain to use in 2020
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: if they wanted. And then I got it back from Ron.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: And everything, you know, still fit.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Why do you think they didn't call on you to
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: do debate prep in 2020? It's because they knew he
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: would knock it out of the park.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: I think COVID and Bob Bauer played, I believe, who
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: had known him forever, was his lawyer. Look, it's an incredibly...
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Intimate's not the right word, but it's incredibly intimate. You're
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: seeing people at their worst. You're hearing them at their
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: most honest to staff and to each other. I thought
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: it was a real credit to Vice President Harris that
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: she was up for it. Although when she brought me in,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: it was when she was VP candidate, so I was
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: supposed to be Vance.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't realize that.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: So you had been brought in to play Vance with Kamala,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: and then you just transitioned seamlessly into playing Trump. Uh,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Did you ever do any Vans prep or did it
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: never came to it? Yeah, I spent about two weeks,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: watched his debates, read up on him. I spent, you know,
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: two hours of my life watching Bill Billy Elegy, which
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: is just.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: But it's weird because there are big names, you know,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: like Amy Adams and Glenn Close. Apparently, they all thought
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: it was like a vehicle to the Oscars. I was
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: halfway writing a memo about my first impressions when Rohini,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: I can never get her last name right, Rohini... I
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: am me that Biden had just dropped. I was like, okay,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: I'm done with that memo.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: So I want to understand the difference between 2016 and 2024.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Obviously Kamala Harris is not Hillary Clinton and Trump in
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: 2024 is not the same as Trump in 2016.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: I want to talk about both.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: What's the difference between preparing Hillary Clinton for a debate
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and preparing Kamala Harris for a debate?
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: You know, as it turns out, much less than I
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: would have thought. They both took it really seriously. They
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: both put in the time and the hours. They both
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: took the criticism well. I mean, it is an uncomfortably
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: annoying situation to have people that you pay telling you
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: that everything you just said and everything, the way you
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: just said it is terrible and supposed to keep smiling
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: about it. It's a time suck. And it's not like
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: they take you off the road. You still have to
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: go do fundraisers. You still have to go do rallies.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: You still do interviews. So I think they were pretty
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: serious and they were both serious in that I mean, Hillary,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: Trump had never debated one-on-one. So there was a lot
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: of sort of guessing about what that would entail. Hillary
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: never took him for granted. She saw the power of
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: her message from the first day. The very first day,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: we did like a 15-minute batting practice about the economy.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: And she did, you know, my budget has been scored
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: by the CBO and it's going to save $ 1. 9 trillion.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: And then I went and I was like, Well, you know,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, Lawrence Kudlow. I mean, everyone knows Larry Kudlow.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: Larry Kudlow says, I got the best budget in the world.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: And then on immigration, it would be, you know, I
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: got Sheriff Joe. I mean, if you've got Sheriff Joe,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: you've got the best. And she, you know, we stopped
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: and she sat down and she said, it's so smart. No,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: no one knows who Larry Kudlow is, but he's telling
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: them he's naming someone. And I think that's just a
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: very hard retooling you have to do when you're a
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: US senator, a governor, whatever it is, when you are
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: talking Turkey, to suddenly play that game. It is a
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: very challenging, but neither of them thought it was easy.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: But he's also the most predictable human being on God's
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: green earth. So you can easily plot it out. Like,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: so one example is people will say, how long before
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Trump loses his shit? And I'll say, when do you
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: want him to lose his shit? You're a participant. You're
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: not just a spectator. President Biden made him lose his
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: shit in minute 80 about the golf, the inane golf exchange,
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: about their golf scores. Now, Biden could have done that
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: at minute 10 and gotten the same response. And I'm
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: not saying that was a smart exchange, but the point
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: is that you're not watching him. You can, he's an amoeba.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: He's just a single cell entity that is looking for food,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: for nourishment, and you can easily reroute him.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: So in 107 days, Kamala talks about the moment right
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: before the debate where you let your guard down as
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Trump and kind of, it's a pep talk basically, because
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: you've been prepping so much. Everybody feels like one more
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: session won't get you much because you're everybody understood going
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: into the debate that the mentality really matters, that it
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: matters that you're in a good headspace. And then we
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: learn from that book that moments before the debate, Joe
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Biden calls ostensibly to wish her good luck, but then
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: ends up distracting her with talk about people in Philadelphia
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: hearing she's bad-mouthing him and kind of distracting her.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Did you know that call happened? And what was her reaction?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I did not know it at the time. I think
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I knew it sometime in the weeks after. Obviously, it
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: was poorly timed. But she did great. So I don't
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: think it knocked her off of her game. I'd like
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: to think that my pep talk and really the whole
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: session that Karen Dunn ran was exactly what was needed.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: It was batting practice. We weren't throwing pitches at her head.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: At that point, it is what it is. And it's just,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: it's just hard debating him. I mean, when I sparred,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: when I did with Hillary, I think maybe 11 times
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: for 90 minutes and probably, you know, six or seven
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: times with Kamala, I would walk away thinking, I just,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: I just beat them like a drum. And I don't
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: think Hillary would, would debate that. There were once or twice,
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I think net, net Kamala got the better of me
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: because she was, she knew exactly how to needle, you know,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: thread the needle. Um, But to their credit, if you remember,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: they challenged Trump to more debates before the debate was
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: even started.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: So you're part of these two sets of prep sessions,
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: these two campaigns. It's obviously an important part of your
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: life and a milestone in your life. I think largely
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: we view those debates as having been ones in which
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: both Hillary and Kamala kind of did what they needed
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: to do. They won those debates. They came in and
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: they kind of held their own and came away stronger.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: And yet we lost both fucking elections. And Trump didn't
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: prepare nearly as hard as either of our candidates did.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: It's so discouraging. What do you take away from that?
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: You'll never hear anyone again say, do debates matter? Because
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: clearly a bad debate does matter. And people who have
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: had bad moments in debates have lost. people who've had
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: bad moments have won. Not really. I think Trump got
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: beat at least two out of three times against Hillary.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: One of them was just ugly. I'd call it, you know, TKO.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Kamala beat him like a drum. I went back and
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: I watched both Biden debates from 2020. Trump was just angry.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: And he was really debating COVID at the time more
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: than anything. COVID is the only fact checker that has
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: ever been successful with him. He couldn't tell us something
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: that wasn't true. COVID was too obvious. It was like
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: telling us it's February.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: Well, I think maybe then right now that he's having-
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: And inflation is- Inflation is now he can't fact check
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: people's experience. People's experience can finally fact check him.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: You're 100% right. And I think it's the only two
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: times he has been fact checked by some external It's
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: not that people fact-check him. It's not Glenn Kessler. It's
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: not Nate Cohn. It's not anyone on CNN. It's just reality.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: You can't tell people any more than Biden could. Hopefully
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: it'll catch up to him.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Last question.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: What lessons are there for us as we're trying to
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: figure out how to outflank him, gain attention, get him
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: on his heels?
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: I hate to be.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: I think Donald Trump is doing what Donald Trump does best,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: which is what he did in 2017 to 2019, which
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: is sabotage himself. Now, that doesn't argue for us to
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: just sit on our hands and hope that that happens again.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: But we do, in some sense, have to get out
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: of his way. It's a bit about if your enemy
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: is in a hole, stop digging. And there's that, there's
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: I think there's also, I mean, I guess what I'm
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: answering is more like psyche management than anything else. He's
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: not succeeding in the way that he is Democrats fear. He,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: obviously he has deported people. He, and I'm not belittling that,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: but the courts have caught up with him on a
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: lot of things. He has not been able to fire
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: people as much as he could have. And look, you
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: and I have worked in the government. You know, you
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: can cut 40% right there. Um, nothing he's doing is
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: as effective as how it seems because how it seems
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: is him saying that things are great. You know, sleepy
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Joe couldn't deport anyone. We're deporting more than anyone. It's
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: just not true. Um, the government, you know, the economy
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: is a plus, plus, plus, plus, plus. I mean, he
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: could add as many plus signs. as he wants. That's
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: just not the case. I think there's no magic bullet
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: with him. I do think the handling of the budget,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: giving in to him twice, was probably not the best
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: idea because he would have been blamed for it I mean,
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I don't think that that's such a great, hard thing
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: to say. And frankly, Democrats just listen to him less
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: because he's just so, he raises your blood pressure. He's
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: so antagonistic, adversarial, belligerent, bluster. You know, if you want
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: to know what he says, read the transcript or read
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: an article about it. But if you watch him, you're
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: just going to get upset. I think not take him
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: too seriously. You know, he's going to start with the
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: 2028 stuff, hardcore. Now he does it to needle Democrats.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: And they make the hats and all that. He's going
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: to do it because he's going to be lame ducked.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And he's seeing it with the Epstein stuff. He's seeing
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: it in little ways. Obviously, it's not as terrible as Bill.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: But there are fissures. And I think it's important that
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: Dems not lose sight of what he's getting killed on.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: The ways he's weak, the ways he's weak. He's going
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: to do bluster, but he's weaker than he seems.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: He's vulnerable. I would not want to be a Republican
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: running for Congress this year. And as long as we
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: don't become, I mean, as long as we avoid being
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: the greater of two evils, which apparently is what we
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: were in 2024, we can do really well.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: Philippe Reines, so good to see you. Good to talk
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: to you.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: You too.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening. If you want to hear
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: the full episode with Philippe and get a lot more
• 21:37
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• 21:40
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• 21:44
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• 21:47
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• 21:50
  Speaker 1: next week.