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SPOTLIGHT on Linda Ugelow · Sass N Sips

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, and welcome to today's special episode.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Today we are focusing our spotlight on Linda Ugalo.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Linda is a speaker, a speaking coach, and she's the author of the book Delight in the Limelight.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: So please welcome her and thank you for being with us today.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so delighted that you invited me on.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: We had an amazing time with you at Podfest, and we couldn't picture doing this bonus series without having you on.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we forgot to introduce ourselves.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Look at that.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like so over the moon right now.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm Lisa in case you don't know who you're listening to.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Agnes.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: And what are we all sipping on today?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Lisa.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I'm going first.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm budding in.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is Linda, and I am drinking some organic Earl Grey tea.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: She is our guest.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's only fitting that she goes first.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I have my red wine in my golden girl Sophia glass.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I am drinking peppermint tea today with lots of honey and ginger.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm the only one who's a lush.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's cool.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's cool.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Listen, listen, it's cool.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: But the focus of today's episode is to talk to Linda and to get to know Linda.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you gave us your book at Podfest.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: And can I just tell you a funny story?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was so excited to read this on the plane.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: I had it in my tote bag because I wanted it, you know, to keep it accessible.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I left my tote bag at the hotel.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: I realized it when I got to the airport and went to put the tote bag on the through TSA.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: I got it.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: They mailed it to me, but I was like, oh man, I was so looking forward to that, you know, space of like five hours in the plane and the airport of uninterrupted reading.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: But oh well.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh well.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I have started it, and I just want to tell you, this book is not just for overcoming fear of speaking.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: It really is so much more.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd really like to hear you talk about you and how you came to the book, you know, your experiences that led to it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I always thought I would do is write a book.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember for some reason I thought I was going to write a book by the time I was 42.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know where I came up with that number.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I got to 42.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: I had a two-year-old, and I'm thinking, well, I um there's no way I'm going to write a book right now.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like parenting, and uh, and besides which, what would I even write a book about?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of put that off, you know, as something that I might do sometime in my life.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: What happened was that in in 2014, I decided that organic farming wasn't really what I was meant to do.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: It was really fun.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was growing and selling specialty vegetables to local restaurants.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I was listening at the same time to a business podcast, and the focus was on starting the right business.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: So here I am, weeding the onions in the field, beautiful day.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know exactly what they said, but it was it was like helping us to tap in with our greater purpose.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden I thought, oh my gosh, I always wanted to make a big impact on the world.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And here I am hiding behind the kale.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I like that.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: You have that quote in your book, and I got such a kick out of it.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, I don't, I don't know what it means to have a big impact.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what kind of impact I want to make, but I did know I needed to, I needed to put myself on the path of discovering what that was.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started, and the online space just became like it was a new thing to me.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was in a Facebook group.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had joined my first business program and on Facebook, and it was like, oh, this whole new thing.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I decided to take a program and becoming a coach.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I became a coach.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And once you be, you know, you can't, you gotta put your shingle out there, and people need to know about you.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I decided that I was going to promote myself using this brand new technology called Periscope.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: For those listeners who don't know, Periscope was the very first live streaming app.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Nowadays it's common on, you know, Instagram or Facebook, but then it was completely novel and there weren't many people doing it.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And unless you're watching this on video, you don't you don't know that I'm older.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was in my 50s at the time, now in my 60s.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought I'm always late to the game.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be an early adopter.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And all the marketing gurus said, you got to get on daily to build your following.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, I'm gonna do this.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get on Periscope and broadcast every single day.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I got on the first day, and I felt like I was I was disapperating from my body.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was in such terror that I it was like my head was floating above my body, and I have no idea what I said, but I was I was just um doing everything I could to kind of like come back inside myself.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the next day I figured, okay, it's gonna be a little bit better.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure that it was.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the third day, the fourth day, by the fifth day, I was thinking, my heart is pounding so hard, I don't know if I can continue.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I called my video mentor at the time.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Her name was Holly Gillen, and I said, Are you are you scared too?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, is it just me?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, Oh, Linda, you'll be fine after, you know, 75 or 100, you'll be cool.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, what?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: 75 or 100 of these things?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: How am I gonna handle it?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I started off by like googling how to get over my fear, and I started to like try on these things like pretend your fear is excitement and or ignore your fear and do it anyway, and just push through it.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I was doing things like meditation, deep breathing, power poses, um, holding crystals, all anything I could think of, I tried it.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And every day I would um, I don't know, spend about 45 minutes to an hour getting myself in a place that I felt like I could speak coherently.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Then I get on for five or 10 minutes and I get off.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it was over an hour that I would spend just to, and then that's not even including like my bullet points and deciding what I was going to talk about.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I was spending like two hours a day to get on for five, 10 minutes.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Got to week 10, been doing this every single day.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm about to press broadcast, and I'm noticing my heart is still like pounding.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking, what is the matter with me?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Why isn't it gone?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: And what can I do to get it gone?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because here I was, I was managing it, but I thought, how long can I keep this up?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very occupying.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out how to get rid of this fear.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I said, okay, let's make a list.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do I know?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a background in expressive arts therapies, and I've been a actually, I was on stage at that point with my women's world music group for about 30 years.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I made a list of all the things that I could do to get rid of the fear.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the first thing I did was something called focusing, where you close your eyes, you feel in your body, where is this distress like in your body?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I asked, if this fear could talk, what would it say?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what came back was, I'm gonna be attacked.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So immediately my mind was filled with memories of times that I was attacked, or times that I was rejected or ashamed or ridiculed or pressured to perform before I was ready and really nervous.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like all these things came back.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And suddenly I realized this fear of speaking is not random.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's connected to experiences that we had that led us to believe it wasn't safe.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So the first thing that I and I talk about this in the in the book, the first memory that I kind of handled was when my mom used to yell at my two older sisters, why can't you girls be more like Linda?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was the good one in the family.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: I did my chores, I put away my clothes, and mom never had to ask me twice.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: But when she would do that, and she was yelling at my sisters and kind of punishing them, well, of course they hated me.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: And they let me know by attacking me.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: They'd kick me in the shins, they'd say, Shut up, stupid.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, wow, you know, I learned that if I was a center of the tension, that my sisters wouldn't love me, I'd get attacked.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't want that to happen.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I was gonna dim my light.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a scary thing to be put in the center of attention because it would trigger that memory.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then there were a lot of other memories.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: The time in seventh grade when all the girls decided one week no one's gonna talk to Linda.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, like when you have things like when you feel like you're bullied, obviously you are um, it's not safe to be seen.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: When you're rejected, you feel like people aren't going to be interested in what I have to say.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: That when you are other, when you have other people compared to you, you feel like it's not safe to let your light shine.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: So everything, like everyone has their own story, everyone has their own experience.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: But what is the saying is that we all have reasons for being afraid of speaking.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how I fell into it.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Once I realized I had all these traumas from the past, I knew I had to clear them away.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I just simply tried all the techniques that I had been utilizing in my life for various things.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't know that I needed to use it for this.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So things like tapping that people know as emotional freedom technique or EFT.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I did creative visualization.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I did a lot of journaling, I did tons of forgiveness.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I spent, I remember spending hours in the middle of the night thinking of all the comments that had been made to me that made me feel less than, and forgiving people for what they said to me, and also forgiving myself for believing them or for not having the resources to handle it, or just being, you know, as young as I was and gullible.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: So all of these things worked together somehow.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: And in five days, I no longer had that pounding heart when I got on camera.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, uh uh, like a follow up a week further on, I remember having a very hectic day.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: I had been doing a lot of errands, rushed home to get on Periscope, and I remember saying, Oh, I'm so glad that I get to live stream and just relax.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then I heard myself and I thought, what?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Relax on camera?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is crazy.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then I realized that I gotten, you know, because because of my skills and craft that I had built up from like being on stage for all these years, once I got over the fear, I knew how to be present.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that by turning on the camera, suddenly, because it wasn't a scary place, it was a place that I could that would bring me into focus.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things that Agnes and I actually we we we spoke about this, and it's so amazing to hear you tell the story because we unfortunately I I haven't been able to finish the whole thing yet, but one of the things that we agreed upon was how not only is the book really easy to read and follow along, but how much it really makes you look inwards and and find those things that you need to work on, not just for public speaking, not just to get over that fear, but just as a person who wants to better themselves.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a little confession.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So a few nights ago, I was reading in bed, I was, you know, just up in my bed by myself.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I had my little glass of wine, and and I was reading, and I was reading the part about being um like when you consider yourself a burden and the whole school and parental living up to, and I really started to think about those things and how they have formed who I am, and I just burst into tears, and I'm sitting in bed like sobbing, and it it felt like it came out of nowhere, and then after I, you know, I just I just let it happen, and then afterwards I was like, holy cow, I had no idea that I was really holding on to some of those things, and it felt really good afterwards because I felt like holy, you know, like I found something, I found it, like I I didn't found all of find all of it, but but I found something and I and I can work on it, and I love the fact that this is like how this book gets you because it's just easy, and the the work is hard once you look in, but it makes it easy to begin, and right, and then you have all these tools online to help you, and I'm like, oh my god, I cannot I can't wait to finish and to really just dig a little deeper, but that's my that's my little confession, and I won't bore you with the details, but well, I I'm happy to be bored with the details, but you I don't know, you know, if this is the place that you want to right, right, right.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_03: We don't care about letting everyone know I'll fall into the state.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, you don't?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well that I mean because if if you wanted me to like do a little bit of you know healing with you around that, I'd be happy to.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just along those lines, right?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Where I had I grew up, I lived with my dad for the most part.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: He was very strict, and it was kind of like, well, things had to be done his way.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if they weren't done his way, they were done wrong.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not like he, you know, he didn't say, Oh, you're useless, or you're no, you know, it wasn't really negative if we did it wrong, it was just we did it wrong, we did it again.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: I all things, right?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't clean the countertop right after dinner, or if there were too many mistakes in my homework, and you know, this is way before computers and stuff, the page would be ripped out and I'd have to start again, or like if it wasn't neat enough.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so there were a lot of expectations to live up to, and I had to get good grades, and when I didn't get good grades, it was like, well, why didn't you do better?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I carried that, and to this day, my dad and I had you know a little issue, a big issue at some point, but but at this point we're very close, we're good, and he is one of those people who is my biggest cheerleader.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Anything I mean, when I was in Podfest, he came here to help my husband watch the kids, like he put them on the bus in the morning, you know.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: He and he was just like, I'm so happy you get to do this, but but I I guess I never let go of that fear that whatever I was doing wasn't going to be good enough, and I was gonna get my homework erased or I'm gonna disappoint someone, and it was just this huge relief to examine that part of my childhood and compare it to how I still hold on to that, where he's not yelling at me if I don't, you know, clean my countertops right anymore, you know.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I but I still want to do it because I still have this need to make sure that things are done right.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and I want him to say, Oh, you did a good job.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yes, this is yes, and I I love that you're you're bringing this up because obviously the relationship you have now has matured and grown and is so supportive.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: But what you say really points to the crux of the matter is that there's a younger you that never got to resolve that issue.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the part that needs to be healed, not the current relationship, but the the the one from when you it was little Lisa.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you even bring up in the book about how the questioning authority figures, and I I still find myself in that space, even at work, where my supervisors are have never been anything but great to me.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they'll tell me, you know, everyone makes mistakes, and it's okay, but you know, sometimes that's how we learn, and we gotta put ourselves out there.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And here's little Lisa.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to make mistakes because I beat myself up worse than anybody else at my job has ever come down on me, but I'm so afraid to be called out on a mistake that I end up getting called out for not taking the initiative.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like this terrible cycle where I'm reading the book and I'm like, wait, this is me.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: This is me.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I okay, I need this, you know.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's wonderful.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: You've got your issue, and you know, chapter five is all about the healing techniques.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: So just take what you've got there and and run it through those different the EFT script and the forgiveness and um some creative visualization and inner parenting.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you'll you'll you'll clear that away.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what is nice is I liked what you said before.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I really appreciate it that it's more than about speaking and getting comfortable speaking.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think it does free, it's like we all have stuff, we all have stuff that we're we hold on to that we've been we've been programmed by, and and we kind of have made assumptions and ascribed meaning to, and so we act in particular ways.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we all have that, but when you become conscious of the things that are are acting and inhibiting you to be who you are and to take the kinds of initiative that you would otherwise do, once you clear that up, suddenly you you are making bolder actions.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I like I focused on the fear speaking, even though I feel like we all could use this work, but I focused on this because I feel that when people do have uh obvious inhibition about this, they're motivated to resolve it.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I figured, well, here's a small portion of or a large portion.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: of our society that if they did this work, we would up-level ourselves so much because we'd be able to break cycles of abuse.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um we'd be able to break program cycles of kind of programming that have not been thought about.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know that a lot of our parents are very well-meaning.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and they're they do it in a loving way.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: They just haven't really thought through the implications of the kinds of things that they said to their kids.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: They just said it because it was said to them or they heard it in a movie or whatever, but they haven't really thought through and say, is this really going to help my child feel acknowledged and seen, respected and valued.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's like what you said in one chapter liken it to when your child runs out to the street and you scream at them and it comes out as anger but it's actually fear.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Same premise same yeah I was like how many times I still do with my adult daughter and I'm like she's like I'm like but I'm scared like I'm scared for you.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like if you if I have to be angry at you for you to click then I'll be the bad guy.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: I'm okay with being the bad guy if it keeps you safe.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: No when that's not healthy we we still do it.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah but at least you can say hey it's coming from my my worry my concern about you and that's that's that is the kind of extra information that allows like the the child to understand it in a healthier way.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's different than just yelling and you you do it because I said tell you to do it this way.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like okay I'm yelling but that's because I'm afraid this is going to happen.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Then they can say oh okay so you're just afraid I get that I hope they get it eventually yeah yeah yeah basically in the beginning of the book you there's there's um a sentence well two sentences and if if it's okay I'd like to read it because I feel like this is so poignant for the tone of the book and for so many people who kind of need that reassurance and we don't even know we do.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so you wrote we need the voices of people looking to make our families and communities better kinder and healthier in particular the world needs those who have historically been silenced discouraged and dismissed to stand up and I thought that was so beautiful because sometimes we don't even realize how much we have been silenced and discouraged and even just speaking from a personal place where you know if you know me I don't shut up sometimes but then when you put it in context I'm like well yeah but that's with my friends that's with my so and so that you know but then stick me in front of this person or this situation and all of a sudden it's like well where's Lisa?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: She's hiding in a corner and I I just I just like I'm reading this and I feel like you are giving me validation and motivation and empowering me at the same time and I just I just really like that I just like the way that feels when I read it and I feel at peace and I feel uncomfortable and I feel like fuck this I can take over the world like you know and I'm not even done with the book yet but it's a safe space to be uncomfortable.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: It's that tad bit of fear that you're excited about that stupid saying I hate to say it but it's so true.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like if something doesn't give you does it scare you just a little bit you're not doing it right.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I think on some level it's more of like excitement and fear of knowing what you can do.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: But if like the fear of knowing you can do it but never going that far you're like yeah I can I can do it like yes I'm gonna do it I'm gonna go quick and screaming but I'm gonna do it.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's a safe sphere.
• 27:10
  unknown: Yes.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes I think that that's how I look at it too.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I personally am not a big believer or desirer to get outside my comfort zone.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like if someone says get outside your comfort zone every day I say well I'd rather not thank you very much but I do believe that when I'm in my safe space I'm willing to take more risks I feel safe to experiment and try things out and and flub up and and you know it's like when you are improvising you are allowing things to happen as they happen and the more you do it you become more skilled at it but if you make a mistake you incorporate the mistake so you have this attitude about mistakes are material.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And but if you are afraid that someone's gonna get mad at you or you're gonna get penalized by a bad grade or someone there's going to be some kind of negative consequence to it that is inhibiting so that's why I like to think about like find your comfort zone and stretch it out that's how I like to it's just another I think that you know people have different ways that it works for them but that's what works for me that I want to create a space that people feel safe enough to take risks because they know they know that we I've got their back and they or like in a group of that I lead you know everyone is there to uplift and support one another.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: No one's there to criticize at all.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a no judgment zone.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so people are willing to let themselves kind of be meandering or or show up you know like in their pajamas and no makeup or you know not having brushed their hair when they when they come on video in my comfy on camera course because they know it's totally okay that's not the point there.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what I I feel that we need more environments and community spaces where we can be free to be ourselves.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what I love what you said Lisa earlier you know like you can be with your friends and you feel really at home.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're in a space where you're maybe not quite certain that that that's when you would pull back and that makes total sense doesn't it you know there are other but at some point maybe after you know you work this through you'll go into a space where you don't know I you know actually Lisa I think you're very very friendly I mean when I met you at Podfest you know you were not holding back but maybe because Podfest for you is one of your safe spaces and there's no focus on me.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: We were having a conversation it was it was beautiful it was comfortable it was easy it was it it felt very natural but there was nobody watching me there was nobody looking to criticize or judge my work in that conversation and I think that that's part of where my comfort zone ends is when I feel as though I'm being watched so this ironically is out of my comfort zone except in the sense that we have the capability to edit so if I say something that I sound like a total idiot well I can take it out you know if I if I look less than I feel is good I can take that out but it's a challenge and I like the challenge but then again we have creative control so even though I want to push and I and I would love if I could just be like you know what cool we recorded we hit play we hit stop and and then I can hit publish but I can't I'm not ready for that I afterwards it's like okay well make sure we edit make sure we clean it up make sure we don't say anything that we're uncomfortable with or we or we might sound foolish and then even after it's edited sometimes I I listen again because I'm just like okay I got everything right I got everything.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: No we we're okay okay you know and it's less I feel like it's less me being a perfectionist and more just me making sure that I am limiting what I can be criticized for.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's that's what I'm afraid of and I just admit it's that's that's um I think that's in pretty incredible that you can recognize your your inner motivations around that I'm also wondering so um like Agnes said Lisa you guys do this together I would imagine that like don't you feel like doing it together gives you a sense of you know safety safety and boldness yeah I didn't picture alone yeah no definitely not because I think part of the comfort level is that it's just us talking if we're on the phone except that we're recording and people can hear us after the fact I don't think I personally don't think about after we hit stop recording I don't think about it afterwards.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: And whatever goes out there goes out there it is what it is and I'll take whatever comes good bad or indifferent and I want to think about it.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: It just it and at least I'm worried about the editing and I just thought you were editing for perfection like cut out the cat like my cat snores and cutting out the dogs the dog's nightmares you know I mean okay I'm like leave them in they're part of nature they leave them in the natural well I think you know I you're but yeah I I think it's also that's the positive part also is like you take care in the artistic result.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think there there's something nice about it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean there is something to be said about our art aesthetic sensibility and our sense of artistry and because of even with the motivation of it and not wanting to be criticized you are still utilizing that to create something that you feel good about and that meets your standard of art I think that's a nice thing.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: I want to give you a tissue Lisa no no no in a good way I had to put my glasses on are you are you tearing up no no no I did a couple times I mean I was I luckily I have my book on the plane um coming home and I had to stop reading it because it was an emotional release.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like okay the people next to me I don't want they need to stay out of my business I don't want to see them I don't want them to see me crying um and I find that I can't it's for me your book isn't linear it's I read some I go back I put some things into practice then I read some more and then I go back and read again and read and put some things into practice it's kind of like two steps forward one step back and just to repeat and it's like it's like a gateway to therapy but in the most accessible way possible.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I can hear Angie I hear your voice when I'm reading it so there's that and it's just calming and conversational and just okay and as opposed to reading a self-health book where you're being talked at there are I read a couple of those and I was like yeah and I put them down and I read them again because I don't want to I want to have a conversation I want to talk to someone in theory right but but just to build on that I I haven't read a lot of self-help books but I feel like the ones that I have like browsed through they always feel very sterile and very like well here I am and I speak from a place of authority and you must do XYZ and then you will be insulting insert right insult result here.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't I don't get that from this there's humor there's a lot of personal examples and it's it's my mom is very similar to your mom so when you talk about how she holds on to things like my mom is the kind of person who is looking out her window waiting for somebody to park in the driveway so she can call the cops on them like you know like she will hold the grudge she will you know you know like just very similar kind of personalities but you frame everything in such a way that makes it accessible and makes it feel as if like Agnes said like you're having a conversation with the book except uh you know you're not but you but you are because the things in it are very easy to exp to understand and easy to put into practice and it's not just well do this if you want to overcome your fear it's fear is a gift and the dandelion I love that the dandelion like oh my god that's so true like why the dad how do we get rid of it do we eat it do we point it well why is it there?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's call let's find the root cause of it I was like oh I like that which I never knew and now I'm like oh okay so I got it would be different now too so you know and so now I'm glad you brought that up because now it it brings it ties back to me saying that I was an organic farmer.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right it all goes one big beautiful circle that's right and yeah the whole idea of you know when we have dandelions in our lawn and I I live in suburbia and nobody else has dandelions in their lawn you know they put pesticides on it I see the you know the trucks coming with the sprayers and my husband we he likes dandelion tea so we do dig a bunch out and we dry it and he he he has it every day he puts he has his own concoction that he makes and but then again you know I have thought okay if I have all these dandelions in my lawn why are they there and then that's when I got thought maybe I'll take a mineral test of my soil and see maybe if I change the the um pH or put some calcium down the dandelions won't need to feel like they their their presence is as uh needed to bring the calcium to the surface or I can't remember I think there are other maybe other minerals that it also brings up now um that doesn't mean that I've gotten rid of my dandelions or I want to get rid of my dandelions but it is good to know why they're there.
• 39:11
  unknown: Yeah.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so simple right because the rest of us myself included are like okay well how do I get rid of the weeds not not ever thinking once about why they're there but just okay well how do we get rid of them?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah and I just I really just like the way you frame everything.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you know as you're saying that I'm thinking but I did want to get rid of my fear but but but I feel like the journey of it is just as important because that's what first of all by getting to the root causes but also these are our stories these are meaningful to us this is what allows us to look at our life journey and and see the unique quality and the and the the life learnings that we have from our experience that we can then kind of commiserate about we can use as cautionary tales we can laugh about we can uh decide to do things differently you know make our own rules create a different vision of what society can look like that by but without looking at these things we don't that's why it is a gift without looking at these things we are bereft or we're separated from the these very meaningful parts of our lives I feel like it's it's it's also about learning where the beginning like where we need to start from because most of us weeding fear of public speaking we're starting with the problem is already established and what do we do about it you know from here forward instead of saying okay but where did the problem come from and start here and figure out how we got the problem and and now we can deal with it because we have more information.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like this light bulb idea over the head where it's like well why didn't I ever think of that I know I was the same way it was kind of like duh it was not an aha at all it was really just like duh of course I mean this is not new it's not a new idea yet when I looked on the internet I wasn't seeing anybody who was looking at the fear of speaking in this way or doing anything about it.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people would say oh yeah you'll probably feel this way if you know you had a bad performance you know performance and or you got ridiculed but here just practice more or you know but so they just leave you with that burden and they don't help you get through it.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's what is unique.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things I want to emphasize is that the the techniques that I use to get over the fear of speaking once we discover, uncover the the range of root causes, they're not the only ones out there.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean even in my chapter five after I go through my favorite techniques I say you can make up your own I mean you can use other people's you can you know try out different kinds of therapy or hypnotherapy or or I I um spoke to one woman who said who is a poet and she said I just put it in my poems of another person who's a songwriter who just like put it in you know they recreated what they wanted through the the songs that they wrote what they would have liked differently than what they had and um or there are people who would do rituals of releasing by throwing stones in a lake or branches in the forest or burning you know writing things down and burning them in a fire.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: So we are meany making humans beings and we can we can create our own healing rituals.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: What's nice is that some people have already created things that that work really well so it's worth trying it out.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's worth trying out EFT it's worth trying out creative real visualization forgiveness exercises all these things are are useful and I like using them in a layered way because I feel that why why force a particular modality to do all the heavy work let's let's layer it on and overlap them and and so we can feel kind of supported and and shifted in in lots of different ways.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: So in a physical way in an emotional way in an intellectual way we're so multifaceted like Let's address all these multifacets.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: It brings it to the point where even if you know what your root causes or what your trigger is and you thought you got over it, you're like, oh, but I guess I didn't.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because you know, one, you're not taught how to actually the acknowledging it doesn't always get you past, it doesn't heal you from it.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: And thus comes in your different MOs of helping you heal your EFT.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then I do, I used to, I gotta get back into it.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: Used to do meditation and all that other fun stuff.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: So a lot of different um avenues that you don't think can help with the healing process.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: Just because you acknowledge it doesn't mean you've healed from it.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And no, it's the first, that's the first step.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: You don't think that's thinking like, but I dealt with it.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, I guess I didn't.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: Oh well, let's go back and deal with that.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I've had people come to me, you know, and they say, Well, I I did work on this in therapy.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I I say, Great, let's do a little more.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's do something more, because there may be something that that just got overlooked.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and also a lot of therapy is talking and it may not get to the emotional level.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or there's also the physical level, because you know, like when we're when we're nervous, it affects our breathing.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: It affects the way we use our voice.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: So many people come to me and they say, I feel like I lose my voice when I'm afraid when I speak.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_00: How do I stop my voice from shaking?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or or I feel like my throat closes up and it sounds really like constricted.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's this inner experience that I feel like I'd like to help people transform because I mean, it's yes, we do want to be effective communicators, but we want to feel like our communication feels good to us.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Us.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what about our experience?
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is your life.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I want it to feel good for you.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's not like we're gonna, you know, transform in on a dime and everything's gonna be just the way we want for the rest of our lives, because we're life is always bringing new experiences to us.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I really believe that the this is a journey, like getting over your fear actually is also just the first step and learning to be more of who we are and to like uplift ourselves the the to our fullest potential.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of us, I'm sure, you know, like we can listen to our podcast and we'd say, Oh, I wish I was a little more this way, I wish I was a little more that way.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we can take steps to become that way, but we're always going to be seeing ways that we want to grow.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, say say what you're gonna say.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I was I was gonna agree with you that I I do find myself doing that when I'm editing and saying, Oh, but I forgot to say this, or I should have said this, or why did I say that, you know, and I I do catch myself, and I feel like for me, that's always been a um um like kind of like validating the criticism almost, and like because look, I I screwed up there, I should have said you know, that didn't make sense, or or I forgot something important, and so to me, that tells me in editing, well, look, you screwed up and you you weren't as good as you could be, and and that's something that I need to work on and say, but that's okay.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes it has to be okay because I can't go back and redo it, but knowing that it's also okay to not be okay is something that I have to work on.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, and I think it helps to look at it all as like a longer journey.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, I I always forget to get, I mean, for years I would forget to do what's called a CTA, a call to action, which is telling somebody to subscribe or to download this free thing.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: I would always forget.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so then, you know, at some point you say, okay, well, I'm leaving some learning for the next time and the next time and the next time.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like we leave breadcrumbs for ourselves of things we want to clean up.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the trick is to how to do it in a way that feels kind, that feels compassionate, that allows us to maintain our enthusiasm, that it's okay for us to forget a word or to stumble or to not have the kind of personality that we know we could express ourselves with, because we're leaving room to grow for the future.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: And because that's where we get our satisfaction or part of our satisfaction is not just making one thing perfect once, but by feeling like we're growing and we're getting better over time.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: So allow yourself to enjoy that process of growing and know, yeah, it's fine.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I actually have come to a place where I enjoy making mistakes because I like the new challenge of how am I going to handle this one?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I tell a story in the book of um a time where I was giving a talk locally, it was several years ago, at a rotary club.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the I was having slides, and at the last minute, I put in a slide that was illustrating a point.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I got to that place in the talk, and I looked at the slide, and I just went blank.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: And all my I've taken a bunch of speaking courses, and they always say, Don't tell the audience if you've made a mistake because nobody knows the difference.
• 50:32
  unknown: Right.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: But it really bothered me that it was there.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: So and I and I knew I'd put it there just that morning.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I said to the audience, I have no idea where I put this slide here, but give me a minute because I know it was important and I want to remember it.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: So everyone just waited.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, oh my God, how long can I let them wait till it comes back?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just about to move on, and then it popped into my head.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, the slide was messy papers on a desk with coffee spilt all over it.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Oh, yes, if you're not prepared, that too can cause speaking anxiety.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone burst out laughing at once.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then I realized the irony of the whole.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end, the the president who is a banker, she runs a bank.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what is they called?
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, a bank in a in a town.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the main bank, but the uh the the little town bank.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you anyone who's listening knows what I'm talking about.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: She came up to me and she said, that was her favorite part of my presentation.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because they got to laugh.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_03: It was kind of authentic and it's a good idea.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was exactly it was authentic.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: She hired me as her coach.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when I realized it's okay to make mistakes.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's how we handle them.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or we can either handle them with poise and serenity and just kind of move on, or we can make it into a funny moment, or as you are saying, Agnes, you know, just like be authentic in the moment.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I allowed myself to be amused by it.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and since then, like if I'm doing a new talk, and let's say I have six things that I want to illustrate, and they're enumerated, and I'll say to myself, you know, Linda, you're not gonna remember six things.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you might, but very likely you're gonna forget it.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is that okay?
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll say to myself, yes, because I know if I get to number five and I say, I can't remember five, we'll come back to it.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I just move on.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: Undoubtedly, someone will come up to me afterwards and say, Thank you so much for modeling how to handle when you can't remember.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't bothered that I couldn't remember.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't bothered at all.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Whether I came back to it, or you know, if I didn't come back to it, everyone forgot.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: If I came back to it, it just shows you that it'll come back.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: So these are it's like handling mistakes and starting, learning to feel comfortable with stumbling over your words or forgetting a section or losing your your focus and saying to everyone, where was I?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then everyone gets to say, Oh, you were just saying this.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: Then that's a little audience interaction.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: All these things make it more it gives us more permission to be imperfect, know that it's totally all right, more than all right, because it's relatable.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: We had the same moment just yesterday where we had to work out some kinks with how we labeled our episodes.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: So to give and we had some other kinks, and it was like, and I actually said this is the best thing ever, because like we like this worked out great because it just so happens that it was someone we know that put us in.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_03: It was literally the best moment ever because we were able to work out the kinks before it became an issue.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_03: It was still a learning, but it was a good learning, right?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_03: Before we got really, really busy, we got before we got like huge and massive with a billion listeners, but we're able to work it out now and set us up for success later.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh, this is great.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and you didn't like go into a downward spiral about oh gosh, we're so this or we're so that.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's kind of like cool.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I find for myself, I find that I am so much more willing to accept other people's mistakes.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, cool, it's like everybody makes mistakes, you know, it's fine.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like we'll just we'll fix it, we'll figure out how to fix it or learn or move on.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: But but I don't allow myself that same kindness when it's me who makes a mistake.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, what the f you know, what's wrong with you?
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how could you do something so stupid?
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like what but when it's somebody else, I'm like, oh no big deal.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's just fix it.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's gonna be changing soon because you'll be I hope so, you'll be addressing this because and I think it will change, and I'd love to if you keep me in the loop about it.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, ma'am.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things also that when when so we met at Podfest, and it was kind of by accident, you know, we we Agnes and I were doing a little meetup and we were sharing space where we chose and we got to talking to you and and it was great, like it was it was just a really it was just a really pleasant evening.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you were talking to us also about like some of your podcast ideas, and and we were just like, oh my god, that sounds like the best thing, you know.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then we talked on a on a I don't know it was the next night where we ran into each other after the closing party, and you were talking about your music group, and you've got a lot of stuff going on.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do you wanna share any of that, or is it something you wanna, you know, you rather not?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's up to you.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can pull this whole thing out of the episode if you're not comfortable with it.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I guess it's kind of like what is relevant to bring in.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, because the spotlight is on you and you've done a lot of cool.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're relevant.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, so yeah, I I did mention my my performing group Labana, which I all in all, I was performing with them for 40 years.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I did, I mean, there are many things actually.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about the group in the book because so many of my ideas about stage presence got developed through my experience with them.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: So one of the things that would happen in our group was uh we always introduced songs, and our director wanted different, she wanted everybody to have their speaking voice heard.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: So she insisted that everybody introduce songs, and I hated this.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, sometimes I could get out of it because I was the principal dancer and I actually had costume changes.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: So some there were some like seasons where I didn't have to introduce a song at all, which was great.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because when I did have to introduce it, I would mess up ahead of time, like three songs.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: I would be making mistakes because I was thinking, oh God, I've got to do this.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't like I wasn't well rehearsed in what I was gonna say.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: I would say the same thing every single time, but I was just so nervous about it.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there were a couple of people in the group who were very, very comfortable, like just improvisationally telling stories and elaborating.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: And there were sometimes we'd be standing on stage for five minutes while a story got told.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to play around with my stage presence because when you're on stage, okay, someone else is the center of attention.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't want to take attention away from them.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: You want to kind of like gently, you know, contribute to the focus being on that person as a collaborator on the stage.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, you know, you're free to look at the audience if if the lights aren't in your eyes and um get to experience, you know, what is it like to feel like just standing on stage?
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just here, no place to go, I'm relaxed.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can I used to play around with feeling the energy between me and people in the audience, or energy between me and my um band members.
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I would just like experiment with all this time I had of just like standing there listening to a story that I had heard many, many, many times, and like getting to um without having to be speaking or singing in those moments, just being and experiencing what it is to be grounded in my body.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would use body scans, and so these are elements that I have brought into like my comfy on camera course.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, like the first thing that we do to get comfy on camera is I have people close their, turn the camera on, close their eyes, and just do a body scan, like how you connect with yourself.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so everyone will narrate in their own way.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I feel my I'm you know, relaxing in my chair, I feel my feet on the floor, my arm is resting on the table.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_00: I can feel my my breath flowing in and out.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: I notice the airplane noise, and they'll just you know rattle on and on what they're noticing.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: But this is something that I develop personally just from standing on the stage and and exploring what my presence was.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then, like the next thing uncomfying camera is making a relationship with uh the audience, which is the lens.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd have them find with their finger where the lens is and where it closes off.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, because a lot of people, you know, you've got a light on your camera next to the camera, but you may not know is the camera actually on the right side or the left side, or is it above or below?
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or some of our cameras now have all the, you know, we have different cameras or front and back.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, where are we actually looking?
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, people say, Well, I'm afraid to be on camera.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what is this thing that we're looking at anyway?
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is it plastic, glass, minerals?
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is this technology?
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_00: And isn't this amazing and awesome?
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I have them develop like a curiosity and and start making actual friends with it.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I appreciate you.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're letting me have this conversation with Lisa and Agnes right now, and whoever later on will be watching this on YouTube.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's pretty amazing and magical.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we do this?
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: And wow, thank you.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like suddenly I have this expanding friendship with the lens.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's from those experiences that I had on stage with all this time in the world where all other people were talking, that I got to play around with these different concepts that I now help people with in their presence on on camera or on stage.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that was one thing that I don't think we talked about that at Podfest.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, we didn't.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it's something that I think about in terms of how one of the ways that my experience in that women's world music group allowed me to kind of develop the work that I'm doing now.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Do you still ever uh perform with them?
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, I stopped performing with them uh right before the pandemic.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: We I felt like my my work with helping people overcome their fear of speaking and you know, promoting my book and doing my programs just felt like it was it was demanding all of my time.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't have the same um, it didn't feel as comfortable to reserve like a whole weekend a month to rehear, you know, rehearse or travel and perform.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, okay, I I did that for 40 years and it was wonderful, and time to move on.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's a that's that's a good chunk of time.
• 1:03:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was a good chunk of time, yeah.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: But that's really nice though.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's nice to see how one activity can nurture the seed of something so different, but not really, you know, and and and just how two seemingly unconnected things are connected.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of like my podcast idea, I think that's that was how we started our conversation.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_03: Right, right, that's what I was just like, I'm so excited about that because um yeah, that's something you really need to um put into motion because I'm impatiently waiting to hear that.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I I'm I'm petrified of doing this.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason is uh like what will if I put my energy into this new podcast idea, what from my very, very long to-do list is gonna get dropped even further down the lane, you know?
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: But my idea, so recently I recently meaning last year, I became really obsessed with the whole genre of pride and prejudice.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it started with actually looking at some YouTube videos of someone doing a reaction video to the 2005 film version, and I hadn't seen the film, but I really enjoyed this reaction YouTube.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, oh, I wonder if then I noticed other people had reaction video videos to that film, and so I just got to know the film a little bit through people's reactions.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, I watched the film, loved it.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: Then I thought, oh, this is frustrating because I know there's more to the story.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I found a YouTube version, an audio that I liked the person's narration, and I listened to that, and I actually have listened to that numerous times.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_00: I when I can't, if I've woken up in the middle of the night and I can't fall asleep, I'll put on the audio of Pride and Prejudice to go back to sleep to.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's like my bedtime story.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's just a security blanket.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: It is, it's like it's a 10-hour long bedtime story.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll just listen to part of, you know, whatever part, and um, I'll wake up in the morning, it's still playing.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: So then I was at a party, and someone's I was telling them about my obsession with this story, and they said, Do you know about the fan fiction?
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: I said, I don't, I've never even heard of that.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: They said, Well, people have taken, we'll take not just Pride and Prejudice, other books too, like Um Harry Potter and whatnot.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_00: But they'll take it as a prompt and they'll make their own versions.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: They'll say, Well, what if these people met earlier?
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: What if this person was a good guy and not a bad guy?
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, these different kinds of things, and they'll create a whole new novel out of it.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: And man oh man.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: I went down this rabbit hole, and I I think I've counted, I've read 49 novels in the past six months.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I read 49 novels in the past years.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't read a novel.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think I read one novel in the last 15 years.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: So this is new.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I signed up for you know Kindle Unlimited several years ago and never used it, but I really made up for it.
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_03: You made up for it and then some.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_03: And how?
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: So my podcast idea was, you know, I some of these authors, I'm just like fascinated with like, how did they come up with their idea?
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: What were they wanting to show about these characters in their book that they wanted to elevate?
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because one of the things I I originally wanted to do a reaction video to the film as a speaking confidence coach because I was fascinated by so there are two protagonists are Lizzie and Darcy, and they they have a he makes a negative comment that she overhears.
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_00: So she has like her attitude about who he is, and you know, and in the meantime, he falls in love with her, but she's she doesn't realize it because she's like pissed at him, but she's very civil, but she's civil because she's you know, she's brought up in this society that they they're um they try to be nice to each other, the gentle, the gentle folk.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're the landowners, but they have like the mores of their society.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, but what's so cool is that because she's not looking for his, she doesn't care if he likes her or not, she's very free to be very witty, to be a little caustic, to to joke around, that a lot of people like he's not used to it because he's this very desirable bachelor where everyone's fawning over him and agreeing with him and and trying to like get him to like them, and she's so completely different that he really takes notice.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Who is this woman who speaks her mind and she's so witty and intelligent, and she's not afraid to like talk back to me, and he totally falls for her, and she she is clueless that he feels this way, and she's he's staring at her, and she says, He he must be staring at me to judge me, and I'm gonna like I'm not gonna fall for it, I'm gonna rise to the occasion.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's fascinating, and he on the other hand, is totally tongue-tied and around her and doesn't know how to be himself at all, and it's just fascinating then how it kind of like it opens up so they come onto the same page and they, you know, right, fall in love and whatever.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I just I but the movie in particular highlights certain elements, you know, as movies will do, of the personality traits and the way that they they have these long moments of silence that it's like we don't allow in our lives, but they do, and it's almost built in.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like just even that they bow to each other or they curtsy, they have this acknowledgement, it like gives this moment of being to in one another's presence without having to say anything.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's interesting to me.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I I feel like I would love to dissect this with other authors and and talk about like what is it that we what is it that we would love to emulate in our society now that we've lost, perhaps what would we what do we appreciate uh appreciate about our society now that is you know a development, a an expansion of what we weren't able to do then.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it's very clear to me, you know, just obviously being women, we have, you know, completely different set of permissions and freedoms and possibilities that we didn't have then.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, it has all these different dimensions.
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_00: I thought would be really fun to explore on a podcast.
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, Agnes, thank you for your nudge.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be thinking about you as my little fairy godmother.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Sprinkle that little lovely.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, sprinkle a little, yeah.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I know I was telling you I have never heard, I have never listened to any of our podcasts because I cannot stand the sound of my voice.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_03: I don't like the sound of my voice, I won't listen to it.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you're like, just do it, just do it.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_03: After reading your book, I'm like, you know what?
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna do, I haven't listened to the podcast.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_03: But Lisa has posted like videos and stuff of us doing podcasts and stuff.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_03: Now I have played them and I have listened to them from beginning to end.
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_03: The first time cringing, but the more I'm doing it, I'm not cringing as much.
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm working my way up to actually listen to an episode.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's because you love that.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like tomorrow, actually, I'm starting a week of called Watch Yourself on Video Without Cringing.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's this whole process where you you watch it and you let, I mean, I'm a weak believer.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you got a noisy voice in your head that says, Oh, I hate that.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Ugh, I hate this, I hate this, make a list of all the things you dislike.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: So watch it and make a list of all the things you hate.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Then you go back and you make a list.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is my particular game.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's my rule.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to follow my rule, but if you're in my class, you follow my rule.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_00: You have to watch back and make a list as long as that first list plus one of things that you like and appreciate.
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Then we go in and we separate out.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what are the things that were on your I don't I hate it list?
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Now, all along, there are also exercises or process healing processes that we do for this, but this is like the outline.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: The next day we we separate out what are the things that you you can't do anything about, and what are the things you can do things?
• 1:13:13
  SPEAKER_00: So there are things that you can learn about, you can you know develop things like the shape of my nose.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna change that, even though my mom wanted me to get plastic surgery, it's not gonna happen, or my crooked teeth, or you know, the shape of my eyes, or whatever.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna, those things are not gonna change.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have to learn to accept those.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we have ways of accepting that in the program, but but the things that you can change, then you set you then can have a dialogue with a nice voice in your head, and we have a process for doing that of okay, if I don't like this thing, I don't like the sound of my voice.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so that what you said, Agnes.
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the things that I can do?
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_00: What would you have me do to enjoy it more?
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then you start having a dialogue with yourself about well, how about if you um ask other people?
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what you'll say, but maybe it'll be ask other people what do they think about my voice, what do they like about my voice?
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'll ask, I'll ask some friends what they like about my voice, and that'll be one thing that I can get.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_00: What else?
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, how about you do you like to sing, Agnes?
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_03: I love to sing.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_03: I sing off key and I love it.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so how about if you um spend some time singing before you get on the podcast to like tune into how I love the sound of my voice?
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you'll say, that's a good idea.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_00: What else?
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so you keep you keep going on, keep going, getting a few things that you can do.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, another program that I'm developing that if you want to be a beta tester for me is love and transform the sound of your voice.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like that's to me, getting to use my voice is one of the best parts about speaking.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's so fun to make sounds.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I think as a child, we know this because as a two-year-old, you're always going, you know, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're playing around, you're having a good time, but at some point we decide or we're told, be quiet, don't make so much noise, or whatever.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're so loud, use your inside voice that we we start to feel bad about our voice, and we forget that it's actually fun to make sounds.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're actually uh like an instrument.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_00: We are an instrument, and just that we have vibration and it comes out on our exhale.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when we're exhaling, that's a feeling of release, and it there's pleasure, there's pleasure in the vibration, there's pleasure in the release, there's fun in that we're making all these different sounds.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so much to like in our voice.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I I feel like this is key.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is such a key to delighting in the limelight.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I get to speak.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm excited.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Lisa, I'm gonna start singing before every time we record.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so sorry for your pain and suffering.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you sometimes sing while we record, so I do, don't I?
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's fine.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_01: The first time Agnes heard her voice on the podcast was by accident, and it was actually on another podcast.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, and I almost almost had an accident.
• 1:16:47
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, wait, what?
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was somebody somebody used a clip from our show on their show, and I think it took her a minute to realize that that was us.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and she was just like, wait, what?
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, what?
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Okay, great.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_01: So after a few years of us doing a podcast, the first time you heard a part of our show was on somebody else's show.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_03: Greg, I heard it, you know.
• 1:17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Agnes, you are so expressive and you seem to have a lot of fun when you speak.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you can lean into that.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_03: I will try, I would definitely be conscious of it while I am listening.
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because if I while I'm doing it, I don't think about it.
• 1:17:33
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just I'm just in the moment.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna try to take that moment and bring it to myself.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna bring it to when I'm listening.
• 1:17:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I remember I was having fun when I did that.
• 1:17:44
  SPEAKER_03: I was laughing at Lisa.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_03: Leaf Lisa was laughing at me, or we're talking about this random stuff, and I remember the story behind it.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna bring that energy when I listen.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely.
• 1:17:55
  SPEAKER_03: Working on it little by little though.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think I can listen to a full episode yet.
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_01: You you will eventually.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have faith in you.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_03: I kind of have to, or you're gonna beat me up.
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm gonna come over there with my doo.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's how I get you to Wisconsin.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: On a threat.
• 1:18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_01: This episode has been great.
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Linda, thank you so much, so much for coming on and chatting with us.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we want to tell anyone who's listening that we actually have an extra book.
• 1:18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have our books.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_01: We have an extra copy.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, look, okay, three of us.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Can you take a screening shot?
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I will.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I will.
• 1:18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yay.
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you are you doing it?
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna try.
• 1:18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Can I do this?
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think I did it.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_01: We do have an extra copy that we will gladly send to um a person who wants it.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you can email us at sass.n.sips at gmail.com or just go to sassandsips.com and you will link over to us.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Everything is also in the show notes.
• 1:19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And just let us know that you know you'd like the book and you give us your info and we'll we'll get it out to you.
• 1:19:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you would like to find Linda, you want to let everyone know where they can find you and access to you know the book and any other resources that you may have.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would love to invite people to download a speaker preparation checklist.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of times you think, oh, if I'm gonna speak, I need to practice what I want to say.
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_00: But as you probably know now from listening to me, that there are lots of ways to warm up to speak, including moving your body, warming up your voice, getting your mindset in the right place, and and doing things that help you feel grounded, centered, and focused.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_00: So those are in the speaker preparation checklist.
• 1:20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you can get that at lyndaugelo.com.
• 1:20:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's l-in da u-g-e-l-o-w forward slash rituals.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, that, and then from there we can just continue the conversation.
• 1:20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll make sure that your info is also in the show notes to make it easier for everybody to find.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Great.
• 1:20:30
  SPEAKER_01: But once again, thank you very much for coming on and chatting with us.
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, just for spending time with us also at Podfest.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And hopefully we see each other again in the future, and we have more wins to share.
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm sure that we will continue the conversation in some way.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Agnes and Lisa, thanks so much.
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_00: This was really so fun to hang out with you again.
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, thank you, Jake.
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_01: That is gonna wrap up this episode.
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, we thank our special guest, Linda Uglo, for coming on and sassing and sipping and enjoying the time with us.
• 1:21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you can all find us at sassinsips.com.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_01: And until next time, we're out of here.
• 1:21:18
  SPEAKER_01: See you later bye.