Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 314. #AMA Fridays: Should I stay or should I go? Navigating a work transition. - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE

Transcript

314. #AMA Fridays: Should I stay or should I go? Navigating a work transition. - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:00
  Jonathan McCoy: As a social impact leader, you know, building a clear and memorable brand, impact story and digital experience is crucial to unlocking your mission. Our friends at Cosmic combine sharp strategy, memorable branding and scroll stopping digital experiences to catalyze real world change for social impact organizations around the globe.
• 0:18
  Jonathan McCoy: And get this they are offering an exclusive opportunity for the We Are For Good community, you can connect directly with Cosmic's founder and creative director Eric Ressler for free office hours. This is a huge opportunity friends, Cosmic's team are some of the most genuine and brilliant humans we've ever collaborated with.
• 0:32
  Jonathan McCoy: And so we'd love for you to tap their brain power for your mission. So if you could use an outside perspective on your branding and communications, visit designbycosmic.com/good, or follow the link in our show notes.
• 0:50
  Jonathan McCoy: Technology alone can't solve the challenges nonprofits face. And that's why Neon One provides software that empowers you to manage constituents all while giving you the resources and support you need to connect to what matters most your people and their passions. Learn more about how Neon One is helping nonprofits create stronger connections by visiting neonone.com/weareforgood.
• 1:15
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm Jon.
• 1:16
  Becky Endicott: And I'm Becky.
• 1:17
  Jonathan McCoy: And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
• 1:20
  Becky Endicott: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 1:29
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 1:38
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 1:48
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started. Happy Friday. How's it going, Becky?
• 1:52
  Becky Endicott: Welcome back, everybody. So glad you're here.
• 1:55
  Becky Endicott: I love AMA Fridays.
• 1:56
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, so we're kind of like coming back on a little mini series we're dropping here with AMAs, you know, we have this voicemail.
• 2:01
  Jonathan McCoy: And we'd love to hear from you.
• 2:04
  Jonathan McCoy: If you want to like drop into the podcast slide into the podcast, you can drop us a voicemail any day or night at speakpipe.com/weareforgood. And our friend Rachel Bearbower, who runs Small Shop Strategies has dropped us two really great voicemails. So we wanted to pair those up week to week. And so if you missed last week's episode, we dove into just some insight around culture, and why we think that it matters to put emphasis on it even if you are a team of one or two, to all the way to a bigger shop to and today's kind of a second question from her that I think applies to every size organization. But we're going to specifically list some points that hopefully help small shops in that, as well.
• 2:40
  Rachel Bearbower: Hey, John, Becky and Julie, Rachel Bearbower here from Small Shop Strategies. Longtime listener, first time caller. Hey, as you know, I work with a lot of EDs.
• 2:53
  Rachel Bearbower: And a question that has been circling is when the founder is ending their tenure with their organization, and they don't quite realize that it's time for them to move on. What do they do? And maybe a part two to that question is if you are an ED, and it's time to go, and you're ready to go. But, you haven't told anyone yet what are some of the steps that you should be taking? All right, I would love to hear what you have to say, I know you have so many amazing people offering all kinds of great advice. I can't wait to hear what you have to say.
• 3:43
  Rachel Bearbower: Thanks.
• 3:44
  Jonathan McCoy: Oh, my gosh, so fun. And so kind.
• 3:46
  Jonathan McCoy: Should I stay or should I go now, you know, I'm singing that song in my head. I really appreciate the specificity of this question. Because before we dive in to answer this, can we just address the elephant in the room right now? Which is I think we're all in an existential place right now of like, what is my life? What is my purpose?
• 4:07
  Jonathan McCoy: What is going on in the world around me? Am I in the right seat on the bus? Am I even on the right bus? I think these are all really important questions.
• 4:20
  Jonathan McCoy: And I think it's highly, highly normal if you're experiencing them right now. Just we were visiting the other day with our friend Lynne Wester over at Donor Relations Guru, and they're undergoing some really intensive mental health and culture evaluations within shops around the world right now. And I'll just tell you guys that we hear and understand that you are tired, that you are experiencing a level of burnout that you have never felt before that you are living in compassion fatigue.
• 4:53
  Jonathan McCoy: And so that in and of itself is a bigger question that I want everyone to feel worthy of just understanding you are among friends. And I think that that is truly the majority right now.
• 5:06
  Jonathan McCoy: But specifically to this question, we want to dive in to this really great question about, is it my time to go? What are the signs? And how can I be woke, or aware enough to know that everybody else wants me to go, but I'm maybe clinging on?
• 5:23
  Jonathan McCoy: And I think that these are really important questions. I'm excited to dive into this. So thanks, Rachel, for pitching it to us.
• 5:31
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, that was so good. I feel like we can all relate to what you're saying, Becky. And when I was listening to the voicemail, the first time I thought to, that, as a fellow founder in the space, like a lot of the professional development I'm pouring into is just the work on that our work is not us, you know. And even though these are the most incredible missions that we're part of, and people, especially founders have poured their heart or their life to undo some kind of unjustice that they probably experienced in life a lot of times, like, you need to feel the permission to be able to step away from that when you're ready to transition out. And that's doesn't mean that you have to have this existential, I can never leave kind of moment. And so I think you're in the safety of friends here. But it does begin with asking bigger questions. And I know that we always kind of go back to that. But we've curated some questions here that are just some things that you want to like start thinking through and wrestling through, and hopefully have somebody that you can talk through with these two, because, you know, when you Google, if you start to Google advice, that's can sometimes be a scary place, right? Isn't every doctor like don't try to go Google and diagnose yourself.
• 6:37
  Jonathan McCoy: I think we saw the same thing here. You know, when we're kind of preparing for this episode, as you start to Google this, there's not a lot of resources, or you can you can feel really alone in this. Because you're going to hear, you need to go talk to your board, and you need to do these reporting things.
• 6:53
  Jonathan McCoy: And probably all those things are great. But we want to like talk about more holistically like we do on the podcast, because you're a human, and you have a lot of emotions tied to this. And there's a team tied to this. And there's a lot to it.
• 7:05
  Jonathan McCoy: So, you know, don't negate just the regulatory requirements of retiring or leaving. But we want to lead you into some questions that will lead you into some bigger self reflection about this topic. And hopefully, some really good discussion as you kind of process through this.
• 7:19
  Becky Endicott: I am so glad you brought humanity back into this because I mean, we laugh and we joke about that, but it is weird. It is weird to me that it is not an integral part of why we think about these processes and how they shape human beings, how they affect human beings.
• 7:38
  Becky Endicott: And so thanks for giving everybody a little bit of space, I felt myself kind of like exhale a little bit there. But here's some questions, we want you to start asking yourself if you're feeling like this really, really resonates with this question that's been looming over your head about am I in the right place? Do I feel I have the support and resources needed to execute the vision in front of me? Another one would be do I have the support and resources needed to meet the moment right now? I actually think this is a really big one, because we're seeing a lot of shops. And I wouldn't even say just small shops, I would sometimes say older established shops, who are so entrenched in the ways that things have always been done.
• 9:00
  Becky Endicott: And they're holding so tightly to these treasured cows, you know, sacred cows that they have, you know, which is an event, a process, a way that they gather. And if you are not meeting the moment of post COVID, digital explosion, human to human authenticity, then you're probably not getting those results that you wanted, on the first place, because you simply can't meet the moment.
• 9:32
  Jonathan McCoy: So good. And also think like, does the work you're doing bring you joy and fulfillment? And if not really dig in and figure out what's the main reason that you're not able to discover it, and then also does the way that maybe you're approaching the work still bring you joy? There's a lot to uncover there that, you know, we try to dispel a lot of the things have been this way, because they've always been that way. But maybe some of the way the work has been doing for all these years, pre COVID just doesn't make sense anymore, the way that your program is being delivered, and maybe that's what's exhausting you and feeling like there's not a path out. And so just a lot of like good questions you can lean into. And as you're kind of watching the trends that are happening, and maybe listening to the podcast and hearing what some really progressive organizations are doing. And you report back to the staff, how are your volunteers, your stakeholders? How is everybody adapting to those things? You know, these are the things you really want to have a grasp of and understand.
• 10:28
  Becky Endicott: I think that was something that was really unpacked well, in that vein was when Tara Abrahams came on to the podcast recently and talked about her role as a board chair, and about how her ED and her founder, Tammy is pushing her articles all the time they're having discussions about it, and it is reshaping the way that they look at strategy that the way that they look at engagement. And so I think that, you know, if you can even look at those trends and start to position yourself as an expert, there's going to be a radical shift in the power dynamics that are already associated between you and any volunteers or board members that you may have. And the last one that we'll throw out, and this one, I think, will be the toughest for most people, which is because you're it's gonna require some self reflection from you is, what kind of limiting beliefs are keeping me maybe my team or this mission from rising? You know, do I have scarcity issues, about new technology, about finances, about texting a donor about, you know, I will tell you, I had a limiting belief, you know, two years ago that I thought direct mail was dead. And it is not my friends, you know, you can take a look and start bringing in experts and people who are innovating it well. And it just shattered my limited belief about direct mail. So I think it's time to ask some tough questions, because we want to make sure that the reasons that you're feeling unsettled or maybe that your, that your time is waning at an organization could be some recalibration, and we want to make sure that you're, if the mission is still there, the joy is still there.
• 12:11
  Becky Endicott: The process is still working, that we're recalibrating enough to meet that moment.
• 12:15
  Jonathan McCoy: Yes. So if you listen to last week's episode, we really talked about culture and as a leader, you know, how you can pour into that and how you can manage that tension. And kind of picking up on that one of the things we really challenge you to, is being having this ongoing communication, this openness, this transparency happening. And so a pro tip here is that a leader who's constantly talking and checking in with their people, having these honest, raw conversations, is gonna better understand when to stay or when to go. And just understanding kind of the context of all of that. So regular coffees or self surveys, or coaching retreats, all that can help you keep a pulse on this. Because through coaching, you may realize it's not leaving isn't the answer.
• 12:59
  Jonathan McCoy: But maybe it's something like a sabbatical. And that's something we're really leaning into. And going to talk about later this year, we found an incredible expert, but just getting into these rhythms that are more sustainable, because so many of our missions, that really ultimate goal needs to be sustainability, for a lot of the causes that we're chasing. And so you got to think about that for yourself, too. And I think all these things surrounding yourself with coaches and guides and retreats and all these things that can help sharpen you will point you into being able to do that as well.
• 13:27
  Becky Endicott: You know, it's no surprise that we're going to point you to community every single time that you are stuck, you know, whether that's looking for answers, whether that's getting the moral or the mental support, and I actually want to hang out just for a hot minute on the mental health component, because I really think that is such the pink elephant in the room, you know, the fact that we are really trying to drive these missions forward the KPIs forward, the vision, while still maintaining some semblance of sanity, in this world and in these jobs that are truly hard, where we're underresourced and overburdened. And I want to ask you, nonprofit professional leader, human being who is listening right now, like, we want to unpack the difference between burnout versus compassion fatigue, because I do think that this deserves some analysis in your journey.
• 14:21
  Becky Endicott: Compassion fatigue is really caused by exposure to traumatic material. I remember thinking about like, Mike Turner who came on from the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, and he talked about grief counseling for his staff because of how often they are losing children within their organization that's going to bring on some serious compassion fatigue. However, burnout is caused by work related attributes, like pressures of the job, you know, a co-worker who gives you a lot of problems, a supervisor, that's maybe a micromanager. It could be poor work culture. And so burnout is something that's going to be describes the impact of a stressful workplace, and compassion fatigue is going to be that term that describes the impact of helping others. So figure out where is your energy being sucked away? Are you sitting in burnout, which has a much longer recovery time than compassion, you can get in to compassion fatigue, the recovery times more, can be more quick, if you can actually get ahead of it early. But burnout takes a longer recovery time. That's why I think what you mentioned about sabbaticals is so healing, to find that peace to find that center to regroup and get your head clear, and maybe just to take a dang nap, you know, at some point and I think that's completely fine. So please check in on your mental health. And I wouldn't say take that out of your decision making process because I think it's absolutely integral to making that process but you need to understand that you have a healthy mental health plan moving forward, that's not going to put you right back in the position that you're sitting in today.
• 16:12
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, friends, taking a pause from this feel good conversation to share a quick story, Hope & A Future is a nonprofit that serves children in the Arizona foster care system. Last year, they wanted to grow donations during Giving Tuesday. The only problem Giving Tuesday was only one day away, determined to seize the opportunity, they reached out to our friends at Feathr with help from Feathr's services Hope & A Future managed to launch a complete advertising campaign just in time. As a direct result, they raised more than$500 on Giving Tuesday. But that was just the beginning. Hope & A Future decided to follow up with an additional retargeting campaigns designed to increase donations and reengage previous donors. They raised over$32,000, which is a $4,000 ad spend. Nonprofits of all shapes and sizes are turning to Feathr to grow their campaigns with targeted digital ad tools that reach people whenever and wherever they're online. Use Feathr to grow your year end fundraisers. Learn more about their solutions for nonprofits at feathr.co. That's feather without the last e dot co.
• 17:15
  Jonathan McCoy: I love it. And so much of this guidance has been guided by experts. I mean, it is not Becky and I just sitting here coming up with stuff off the top of our heads. I mean, we're thinking seriously, we're tapping, just brilliant brains. And we're gonna round up some really incredible episodes with experts specifically around compassion fatigue, I really encourage you if that's you, like there is a really great resource that will drop into the show notes with our conversation for Mental Health Week last year, but also want to lift Aila Malik and I'm sorry, can we just start you know, celebrating every time we
• 17:43
  Becky Endicott: Sorry, not sorry. Aila's so wise.
• 17:43
  Becky Endicott: say her name?
• 17:46
  Jonathan McCoy: But she shared with us four practical questions for leaders to ask themselves today. This was back in episode 166. But I think it's so applicable in this conversation today. But here's some questions to sit with yourself. Number one, what is my core belief?
• 17:58
  Jonathan McCoy: Like you as a person? What is your core belief? Number two, how strongly do I believe in this mission? Number three, what needs to be true in my workplace to become an evangelist about this? And number four, how are you lifting others that you can pass the torch to? And I think a theme again, this came up as I was listening to that voicemail is like, Who have you been growing and how have you been empowering people on your team around you to prepare for this next season of the organization?
• 18:30
  Jonathan McCoy: And I think that's got to be built into every leaders playbook of how you're not hoarding all of these relationships, you're not hoarding all this control and power, it's so much better when you've got transition plans in place whenever there's so many people together as an organization that can run without you. And that is something you have to like build into your plan from the very beginning. And I've seen leaders that have done that really well.
• 18:53
  Jonathan McCoy: And those are teams that feel really empowered, that don't feel like they have to they're not being micromanaged. You know, it's those are the teams that really come alive, because they all have ownership and different aspects of it.
• 19:04
  Becky Endicott: Oh, you just teased something that we're going to be talking about if you are deciding to transition out of your role. Because if you do embrace that mentality of succession planning and knowledge sharing and level of preparedness, you are going to be winning at the time that it is that you are sunsetting your season within this organization.
• 19:25
  Becky Endicott: So I'm just going to put a pin in there and tell you that that is coming. But we also wanted to provide just some great hallmarks of really exemplary leadership that we got from Dr.
• 19:35
  Becky Endicott: Ryan Bisel, who is an communications professor at OU.
• 19:39
  Becky Endicott: And he says five really quick things that you can dive into one focus on meaning, connect your staff to the work you're doing. And that means you're going to have to communicate it more often. That means you're going to have to forward some emails, make this easy on yourself, share in the celebration and give everybody something to rally around.
• 19:58
  Becky Endicott: Number two, take building trust seriously, which I know that everybody's probably rolling their eyes like didn't we learn that in kindergarten? I think we can all agree that there are some in a lot of areas that we need to work with, especially on trust based philanthropy, as we're seeing it rise as a movement with MacKenzie Scott and the way that organizations are getting vetted. The third one is be approachable, vulnerable and relatable. Jon, I know you've said this, you said this in the last session but we cannot over emphasize enough how being authentic and vulnerable is going to humanize you among your team. The fourth thing is here it is, again, for anyone keeping count build community, among your team give them reasons to come together, give them reasons to share, give them reasons to celebrate, reasons to uplift each other, that will help you with last Friday's episode in our culture keeper section. But it's also going to have an effect of empowering you with people who really want to be there and have a passion for serving this mission. And the last one is develop a two sided messaging strategy. What this means is, if somebody, if you are creating an organization where people will feel open to come and talk to you about their problems, you need to be able to see the solution from both angles, this is going to give you compassion and grace for the person who's coming into your organization, it's going to allow you to not just be defensive if you are on the opposing side of that. And it's just gonna give way to better two way communication. So there's just a couple of quick hits from Dr. Bisel, to help really up your leadership game, if you're really looking into exploring this.
• 21:38
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, let's bring back up the music. Should I stay or should I go now? Like, let's assume that you're saying it's really time to go? Let's talk for a second about how you can ensure a smooth transition for the organization and for yourself. And it just begins. I mean, this is not going to be a surprise is communication. How are you going to socialize this transition? First is is there a clear succession plan process for your organization? And if you're a small shop, the answer is probably no. And that's okay.
• 22:03
  Jonathan McCoy: But you know, pour into your governing documents, understand if there's technical requirements for an EDI resignation, replacement, whatever that looks like, this is the answer you're gonna get when you Google, which is a good thing, because this is the technical thing you need to do.
• 22:20
  Jonathan McCoy: But you know, we're gonna put some We Are For Good arc on it for to modernize it for the modern era.
• 22:24
  Jonathan McCoy: The second thing is probably to ensure your job description really reflects what is actually executed by the ED. This is not just for the ED role, either I think every time there's a moment of transition, you need to look at this, make adjustments. And be sure to note this to your governing body, if it's your board, or, you know, whoever you're reporting to, is this an opportunity for an internal candidate to rise as a leader during this time of transition with some of the conversations we've already had.
• 22:47
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, if you're really living that well, and you're empowering people on your team, I think it's an incredible opportunity, especially for a small organization that one of your barriers is that there's not a plan for growth, which when you lose so many of your people, potentially, this is a great opportunity to pass the torch to somebody on your team that has really stepped up. So I love that. And I think you can have a hand in making that happen.
• 23:12
  Becky Endicott: I also think this, this is a time you need to start identifying your teams, people who are going to help you with this transition. I definitely say start with your internal aid team first, who are those individuals who are going to help you execute the duties that are no longer going to be assigned to you? How are they going to socialize this transition time? So it really starts with being as transparent as you possibly can share your timeline, identify where you'd love their help, ask about documenting requirements where you know, where are you with expectations, and the way that you're going to be delivering things on grants, on events, look at your calendar. And this was really a time for you to say I need your help. And I would like you to co build the next phase of this with me, which feels a lot better than being handed the plan. The second is identifying sort of your external team who are your strongest volunteer allies, maybe it's your board chair, maybe it's just a highly involved volunteer. If I think back to like your rabid fans who really know your mission, get together with them, specifically your board chair, please. And share the timeline, identify where you would love their help, ask them for questions, you know, what sort of things can I prepare for you to make this process easier, give them the name of the internal staff member who can help them, you know, get within these communications channels, capture email addresses, get data in detail. And then I would really recommend co building a transition plan with your takeover team, that this feels a lot better, especially for EDs when there's so much power in the EDs hands. But all of that power is going to shift if you can get the voices in the hands of the people who are going to be delivering that to really speak into what is reasonable.
• 25:01
  Becky Endicott: And what can be done in a you know, in a in a reasonable timeframe. That's going to help not only the organization but it's going to help make sure that your staff isn't overburdened, as well.
• 25:12
  Jonathan McCoy: I agree and like helping to pour into this narrative because, you know, co building a joint statement between your board and the ED or in the founders case. It helps, you know, minimize gossip and make communications as transparent as possible. And I think all of that is just going to support the sustainability of the organization and of the relationships that you've built, which we've talked a lot about.
• 25:34
  Jonathan McCoy: And then Becky, I'm gonna let you round this out because this is so you and this is so
• 25:38
  Becky Endicott: I can't believe you're gonna let me put this in.
• 25:40
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, what it's a, I think this is a beautiful thing. And I've seen you do this in different relationships and just different way that you cultivate people.
• 25:47
  Jonathan McCoy: And I think this is a secret sauce, you know, this is not gonna be a fit for everybody.
• 25:50
  Jonathan McCoy: But I think this is really evolved leadership. So yeah, you gotta round this out with this.
• 25:56
  Becky Endicott: Well, I think I'm just gonna bring it back to culture that if you truly care so deeply about your mission, you believe in its people, and you want to see it grow and thrive, and that you want to almost leave your house better than when you left, I would say consider writing a heartfelt letter to your predecessor, detailing what sort of values and culture and cultural norms are most important to you and your team. That's going to ensure a really seamless transition. And now this is not a time to just gripe about Bobby Sue, and the job she does here and look out for her. And no, this is a, hey, I have witnessed that as an organization, we thrive best when these things are here we go again, in alignment, when these values are being shaped, when we're asking these kinds of questions of our staff, when we're including them in this way. I've noticed that the board really likes it when we bring in staff who report on these things, or when staff are allowed to lift stories from the field, you know, if there are things that are truly helpful and important to you as a cultural organization, share them, I think as a leader, anyone would like to have that leg up on knowing what are the things that we need to really covet and protect. So consider pouring that out, and give somebody like the best first step to be that next luminary leader for your organization that you cherish so deeply.
• 27:30
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, so I hope there's something for everybody here in today's discussion, because, you know, the reality is we're not our organizations, you know, our lives are bigger than this. They're more beautiful than this. So having the permission to really explore this topic and figuring out the time when it is appropriate and right to pass the baton. I hope that you've gotten this. Reach out to us on social media or in the community. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this. And let's just keep the conversation going because friends, we just need to talk about it. Can we just say that that's the biggest thing is, let's have open conversation. Because these things are so important. Our missions are so important. And it requires us to just show up and ask the tough questions.
• 28:08
  Becky Endicott: And we don't want you struggling in isolation. That's why I appreciate Rachel's question so much. I think our small shop friends feel so isolated, and we want you to know you're not and you don't have to be. And so if you are someone who really wants to dive deeper into that concept of compassion fatigue and burnout, please go to Episode 177. We've curated that in the show notes, we had an incredible conversation with two friends who are truly coaches and nurses and experts in this field. And stay tuned for October because we're going to be bringing in Mental Health Week is coming back. It is going to be mental health 2.0 this year, we are really, really going to go deeper. Because we see your struggle we see how much that nonprofits are really trying to weather the storm and you as a human being deserve to live a vibrant and healthy life and we're going to try to give you every tool and resource needed to be able to do that in community.
• 29:06
  Jonathan McCoy: Just so grateful that you you know press play today, and we look forward to connecting with you.
• 29:11
  Becky Endicott: You got this friends, we're rooting for you.
• 29:14
  Julie Confer: Hey, friends, thanks so much for being here.
• 29:16
  Julie Confer: Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics? Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at weareforgood.com/hello. One more thing if you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find our community.
• 29:47
  Julie Confer: Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie Confer and our theme song is Sunray by Remy Borsboom.
• 29:56
  Becky Endicott: Today we're reimagining nonprofit professional development for good we are over the moon excited to announce the launch of We Are For Good PRO. Here you'll discover new workshops, live coaching and exclusive content added monthly invest in yourself, grow alongside community and take your mission to the next level. Learn more at weareforgoodpro.com.