Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / When to Leave a Relationship: The Question That Changes Everything | Love | E546

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When to Leave a Relationship: The Question That Changes Everything | Love | E546 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Many couples run into rough patches over the course of
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: their relationship. Times when things feel so hard, you know
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: another conflict is right under the surface. Resentments have grown,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: and it can be really hard to see how are
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: we going to find our way back together again.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: What can happen is if one person is really leaning in,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: They're pursuing and trying so hard to do whatever it
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: takes to make it work. But ironically, that pursuit and
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: that energy that they're putting in can actually make the
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: leaning out partner more anxious and want to pull away
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: even more.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: This is a real fork in the road moment for
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of couples, a lot of marriages, and it
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: can be very difficult to answer that question. Do we
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: have the possibility of a happy future together or is
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: it actually time to call it quits?
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I asked them on a scale of one to ten,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: one being I am so done, ready to sign the
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: worse papers tomorrow, ten being I'm here till the day
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I die, no.
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Matter what it takes. Where are you on that scale?
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: So, in today's episode of Love, Happiness and Success, we
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: are doing a deep dive into this to help you
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: understand how to answer that question, is there hope for
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: this relationship? With clarity and confidence so that you feel
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: good about the final outcome no matter what that answer is.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Let's gain clarity around actually, what is it that you want?
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: What is it that you wish we're different in order
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: to choose that path of couple's coaching or couples counseling,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: and then trying to paint a really clear picture as
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: much as we can based on the information I'm getting
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: from them, what that path actually might look like.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: But this is your first time tuning in to today's show.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I'm so happy you're here. I'm doctor Lisa Marie Bobby,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: your host. My background. I'm a psychologist. I'm also a
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapist, and I'm a board certified coach,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: and we're here every week talking about all different facets
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: of growth, love, happiness and success to support your well being,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: your relationships, your career, and your life. So today's show,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled because I have such a very special
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: guest with me today. I'm here with my dear friend
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: and colleague, Georgie Sizzick. She is a marriage and family
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: therapist who I've known for many years. She is part
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: of our growing self network, and she is a true
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: authority on the topic of how to get clarity about
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: the future of your relationship using evidence based practices that
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: come from discernment counseling.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Discernment coaching a couples counseling is like rowing a boat
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: from one side of a lake to the other. And
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: if both partners are rowing, even if it's not perfect,
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: they will eventually make it to the other side. But
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: if even one partner isn't rowing as consistently, or if
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: one partner has one or in and one foot on
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: the dock resisting the boat removing, they're either just going
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: to be rowing in circles or they're just going to be,
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: you know, growing a still spot.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, who knows how long. And Georgie, you are the
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: person to talk to you about this. Thanks for joining me.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: share me.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, let's just dig right into this
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: because I think we can both agree this is such
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: a difficult and painful place for anybody to be in
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: their relationship, and so I'm wondering if you could, like,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: let's just start here. You do so much of this
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: work when someone first comes in and says Georgie, can
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: you help me what is going on in their minds
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: and their hearts and their relationships that is creating so
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: much turmoil and so much confusion.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So obviously it can be a number of things,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: but I think most often what I find is either
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: that person or partner is feeling hopeless, unsure, uncertain, run down.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: They've tried so many things for so long and they're
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: just not sure what else can be done, and they're
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: just kind of wanting a last ditch effort of help
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: from a professional before they kind of call it quits.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's definitely one I think type of client
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: that come from my doors.
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  Speaker 3: Sometimes.
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  Speaker 2: The other side, though, is are people who are very
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: highly motivated and want things to be different and believe
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  Speaker 2: that it can be different, but they just don't know
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: what to do. Yeah, feel lost and unsure about you know,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I believe that there's hope still for my relationship, but
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: I don't know the path to get that home eactly.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it's so hard sometimes because you know,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: there's two people in a relationship, and it's also not
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: uncommon for one person to be like we need to
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: fix this, and like really wanting that to be true,
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: but the other person is kind of checked out, and
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: so like, part of this is is my partner even
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: willing to work on this with me?
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, so this is super normal.
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: First of all, oftentimes there is a leaning and leaning
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: out partner, and that's there's no reason to panic yet
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: because I think that this dynamic is really understandable, but
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  Speaker 2: it makes it really hard because what can happen is
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: if one person is really leaning in, they're pursuing and
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: trying so hard to do whatever it takes to make
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: it work. But ironically, that pursuit and that energy that
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: they're putting in can actually make the leaning out partner
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: more anxious and want to pull away even more. And
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: so as they pull away, the leaning in partner feels
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: more anxious and wants to do more. So they try,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: but as they try, the leaning up partner feels more
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: anxious and wants to lean out more and just creates
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: this kind of cyclical, really frustrating, really just exhausting kind
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: of pattern and the relationship absolutely well.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: And you know, what I think is just so fascinating
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: to me about this way of understanding relationships is that
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: it's really around the commitment level or the desire for
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: things to be different. And what has been so fascinating
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: to me over the years is to understand how this
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: can flip what I have seen it. I don't know
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: if this is true for you, but I think that
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: this is a relatively like tragic situation. But it's not
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: uncommon when one person in a relationship is fighting for
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: the relationship oftentimes for years, like reading the books, talk
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: to somebody, trying the things, what if we have a
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: date night, all the stuff and trying, and their partner
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: is not responsive to this, like either minimizing the issues.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: They're like okay, yeah, yeah, whatever, kind of going through
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: the motions but not really engaging. And that what will
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: happen over time is that that partner who's been trying
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: so hard starts to give up. You know, the thing
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: that they internalize is this is not going to be
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: different no matter what I do. They don't care, and
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: it's like that that attachment bond starts to weaken. So
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: finally that partner themselves is now checked out. Maybe they're
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: talking to a divorce lawyer and they're saying, you know,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: I don't want to do this anymore. And then when
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: they get to that place, the person who had previously
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: been like whatever, then now they're like, oh my gosh.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: They feel like they're being blindsided. They're like, what do
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: you mean? What are you talking about? Like oftentimes they
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: haven't fully understood the level of the issues and the
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: relationship with the degree of their partner's un happiness. But
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: now they're there, and now they're the ones making an
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: appointment with Georgie and being like they're leaning in, They're
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: all the way. But I mean, in your experience, let's
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: just go there for a second. Is it too late
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: by the time it gets to that when one partner
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: has been like, yeah, we should have been doing this
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: like three years ago.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: It's a good question.
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  Speaker 2: So that's actually one of the first questions I ask
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: myself when I pubble through the door, who are in
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: that similar situation? And a really really helpful question I
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: start with with every single discernment couple is actually a
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: scaling question. So I asked them on a scale of
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: one to ten, one being I am so done, ready
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: to sign the worse papers tomorrow. Ten being I'm here
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: till the day I died, no matter what it takes.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Where are you on that scale, And what I'm listening
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: for is if a couple says anywhere from a five below,
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  Speaker 2: that to me says that discernment coaching can be helpful
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  Speaker 2: and effective. If a partner says that they've been a
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: one for so long, they've already taken steps or to
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: reach out to attorneys and all they're telling their friends
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: that they're done, that to me is more of a
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: red flag. That says they've probably already made their decision,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: and discernment coaching probably would be, you know, not as
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: helpful at that point, because we don't want clients to
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: do the work. Even discernment, although it's brief, it's still
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: emotionally taxing and really difficult. So I'm assessing forward to
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  Speaker 2: see if a one partner's like already made their choice,
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  Speaker 2: and b if they are actually more aligned than they think,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: because sometimes one partner is really exhausted. But then I
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: ask that quite and they sound like perfect discernment coaching clients. Right,
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, there's uncertainty here. They're burnt out, they're
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: leaning and leaning out. I see the whole thing. And
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: then I asked that question. They're like, well, I'm like
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: a seven or eight, and to me, I'm like, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: that feels more appropriate for coaching because both partners are
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: a six or above on that scale, which means that
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: aligned and wanting things to do better, but they're feeling
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: hopeless in that process, and that's normal to feel, I
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: think for a lot of.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go into this for just a second, because
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: you know, when I learned about this, it was something
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  Speaker 1: that kind of shocked me, although not really like how
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: am I saying it surprised me, but it doesn't didn't
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: really shock me because I was like, oh, yeah, that
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: makes so much sense. So you and I were both
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapists, right, and so that's a very
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: unique type of training. You know, a degree program specifically
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: in marriage and family therapy and systemic psychology, truly systemic dynamics.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Then we go through this whole like supervision process, and
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: it's a really unique thing. I think I read somewhere
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: like five percent of all licensed mental health professionals are
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapists. It's not that common. And even
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: with that, in my training and education, there was nothing
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: about this type of discernment work and the need to
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: assess commitment before trying to improve a relationship. It was
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: just not like a blank space. And then I think
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: what we see in practice is that there are so
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: many people who can show up for marriage counseling, couple's therapy,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: relationship coaching, whatever you want to call it, and there
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: is a difference in where those two people are. But
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: the I think biggest mistake is to assume that both
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: people are there because they want the relationship to get
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: better and they are equally invested in working on it,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: because that is not what happens in couples counseling a
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: lot of times, especially if you don't even know to
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: assess for the stuff we're talking about right now, the
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: differences in commitment levels. Can you talk a little bit
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: about your experience with that and what you've seen happen
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: when you know we're not having that conversation like do
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: you want this to get better? How hard are you
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: willing to work on making it better? Before we assume
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: that's true? Yeah, what do you see there?
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's interesting.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Actually, the man who created discernment work, his name is Bill.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Doherty, and my hero. That man is my hero for
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: so many reasons. Okay, sorry, go ahead.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: He's so great and yeah, he's a Diversity of Minnesota
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: and he basically the same thing you're saying. He realized
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: through a lot of his research and clinical work that
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: like there's a difference between couples who successfully get through
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: couples counseling right and the other side and are successful
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: and feel content and those who just constantly feel stuck
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: and are kind of on repeat and there's a lot
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: of like frustration with the counseling process. And he really
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: took a deeper dive into what made those couples different,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: and he found this kind of leaning and leaning out
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: conflicting commitment levels. And so I think that it's so
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: important because even as he was kind of looking into that,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: realizing that if both if there's a difference in commitment levels,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: it's just going to feel like you're spinning in circles.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: And so if you miss that, what can happen is
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: you commit to couples counseling and both partners probably really
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: want it to work, right, they think it's their only option.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Either we divorce or we do couples counseling, and there's
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: no middle ground. So I'm not ready for divorce yet,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: So I guess I'm going to do couples counseling, and
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: they put all their energy into it and they get
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: really vulnerable, take a lot of emotional risk, are pretty
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: much putting their heart out there on the line just
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: to find that there's this constant feeling of like resistance,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: and over time that can just lead to a lot
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: of frustration things yeah, resentment, oh.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: My gosh, and stuck messed. And so is that what
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: you're saying, like one person is sort of more vulnerable
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: and engaged in doing the things and and then is
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: the other person that's resistant or does that kind of
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: happen on side?
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: I think it's both. So one analogy I find very
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: helpful for this is the a rowboat analogy. So basically,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: couple's counseling is like rowing a boat from one side
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: of a lake to the other. And if both partners
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: are rowing, even if it's not perfect, they will eventually
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: make it to the other side. But if even one
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: partner isn't rowing as consistently, or if one partner has
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: one or in and one foot on the dock resisting
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: the boat removing, they're either just going to be rowing
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: in circles or they're just going to be rowing a
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: still spot, yeah, who knows how long. And then the
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: other side of that is the partner who's ready to
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: row probably notices the other partner who took the ore
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: out of the water, or notices that their foot is
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: on the boat, and so instead of putting all their
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: energy to rowing, they're constantly checking in with their partner
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: thinking are you here with me? Are we rowing together?
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Where are we going? And so they're feeling anxious about
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: the relationship, while the out partners obviously feeling anxious about
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: their relationship, and neither are giving one hundred percent to
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: the pursuit.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: To the other side of the lake.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so yeah, discernment is really it's not about
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: teaching couples to real harder. It's all about helping couples
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: figure out where is your destination, getting out of the boat,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: here are we going to go to the other side,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: and really just getting clarity about, you know, where they're going.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: See. That's why I'm so happy to be having this
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: conversation with you, Georgie, because I think so many times
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: people are trying to make a decision should I keep trying,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: could this get better? Is it time to go? And
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: they don't really know yet what the truth is underneath
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: the surface. And so what you're talking about is this
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: process that you walk people through in order to assess
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: level of commitment. But the other really beautiful thing that
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: you just said that I love about this, and I
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: think why it is so congruent really with a true
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: coaching process. I mean, in a lot of ways, it's
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: unfair to call this psychotherapy. It's not treatment, right, and
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: even counseling, you know, what do we do with that?
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: But because it's not treatment, it's not saying there's something
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: wrong with either one of you that we're seeking to
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: correct or heal. It's a coaching process. It says, Okay,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: who are you? What has been making this feel so hard?
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: And what would need to be different in order for
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: you to want to keep doing this? And then having
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: conversations around do you two want the same things, and
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: even if you did, what would you need to do
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: in order to make that happen? And let's talk about
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: how much work that might actually be. And that's where
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: that commitment level can come up. Because I think it's
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: easy for somebody to say intellectually, yes, i'd like to
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: have a better relationship, but when you really unpack it, like,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: so what does that mean exactly? And giving people choice
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: around would you like to do that consensually because this
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: is going to be some work for you, And they're like,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: I don't know, that's been my experience anyway. Is that
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: true for you?
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: My whole work with couples in discernment coaching is all
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: about informed decision making.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, let's.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Get clarity around actually, what is it that you want,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: what is it that you wish were different in order
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: to choose that path of couples coaching or couples counseling,
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: and then trying to paint a really clear picture as
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: much as we can based on the information I'm getting
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: from them, what that path actually might look like. Because
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: the other thing I run into a lot is people
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: we all do this obviously when we haven't experienced something.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: We just formulate an idea of something based on media
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: or our friends experience, but it's hard to really say
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: exactly what that will be like until we experience it ourselves.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: And so yeah, I.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Really believe in helping couples understand if you did choose
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: couple's therapy based on the things you're saying you want differently,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: here's what that would probably look like, and here are
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: some of the challenges of that. And here, based on
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: what you're saying, here are some of the strengths that
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: I think would help you do that work, you know,
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: and then vice versa if they choose the path of
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: separation or divorce, helping them understand what that would look
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: like as well much as I can, not being a
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: divorce attorney, but you know, especially if kids are involved,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: what co parenting would look like.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: And yeah, all of that.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: So just getting as much information out there so that
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: both partners can ultimately make that informed decision as a
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: team instead of it feeling just one sided.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and so yeah, just to like lay it
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: all out on the table, so you know what you're
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: signing up for, even because especially I think when relationships
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: get to a bad place, you know, that's the experience,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: like communication shuts down. It's so impossible to talk about things,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: and a lot of times you don't really know what
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: the answer is because you can't even go there with
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: your partner. And so this process is creating the type
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: of container where this stuff will come out and you'll
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: have your answer. Oh, this is I'm so glad we're
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: starting to talk, you know, around the edges of what
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: this is and what this looks like. But Georgie, here's
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: the deal. There is within the sound of our voices,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: we have a friend, maybe you had a couple of
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: friends who are listening to this because they are exactly
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: like you said, They're exhausted, they are so discouraged, probably heartbroken.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: They cannot stay here. Whatever's happening right now feels totally unsustainable.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: There's a part of them that kind of wants to go,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: might feel guilty about it, like is this okay? And
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: then there's this ambivalence in this but have we done everything?
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Could it get better?
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: What if?
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: And weighing that and also thinking but to your point,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: there are also hard ships associated with divorce. Like you've
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: solved some problems, you have created new problems, like you know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: so what and so on the other side of this break.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I would love it if we could talk specifically to
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: them about some things that they might be able to
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: take from this and from all your experienced Georgy, what
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: do I do to begin to get some of that
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: clarity in my own life so that they can move forward,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: they can get unstuck no matter which way they go. Yeah,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: does that sound good?
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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• 22:49
  Speaker 1: lahs Wow. So welcome back. As promised, we are back
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: with my friend and colleague Georgie Sizik. She's a licensed
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: marriage and family therapist and the growing network who has
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: so kindly shared her time and expertise with us today
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: to talk about this really difficult situation of feeling so
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: stuck in a relationship that it's not getting better and
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: you need to decide what to do, but a lot
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: of times not having enough information to really feel good
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: about doing anything either way. And so Georgie's here to
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: share her expertise on how to get that clarity so
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: that you can start moving forward again in one direction
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: or another. So, Georgie, just before the break we were
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: had in our minds and our hearts, someone who is
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: dealing with this, They are stuck and not having a
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: good time, and they legitimately don't know what to do.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe some days they're like, that's it, I can't I'm
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: getting out of here, and then other days they are
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: like is it really that bad? Could it get better?
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, the ambivalence is just paralyzing. So where do
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: we even start Obviously connecting with somebody like yourself and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: getting professional support, but like, what are even some ideas
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: or techniques that somebody could even experiment with in their
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: own lives.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great question. So a place that I
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: love to start with my couples is asking them just
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: ground zero what needs to change. So I'm just kind
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: of having a journal and writing down, like, what are
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: my absolute non negotiables? This has to be different for
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: me to feel confident in attempting to stay. So what
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: that means is, I'm just committing to the process of
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: couples work to try and see if I repair, not
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: a commitment to the rest of my lifetime with this person,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: because I think sometimes when we're in that place, our
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: brain goes to extremes, and when that happens, we can
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: be so paralyzed in decision making because it feels very
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: all or nothing. But what's important to realize is, at
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: least in discernment, it's all about am I committing to
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: separation and divorce or I usually say about six months
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: give or take a couple's work, just to see if
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: we can make enough progress to repair and feel like
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: we can give another six So yeah, I would start
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: from that place of just writing down, like what are
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: my non negotiables here? What can I absolutely not give up?
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: If I were to choose that path of reconciliation repair
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: with my partner. And then if it feels safe enough
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: and you have enough tools to be able to communicate
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: that to your partner and just see what they say,
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: see if they're willing and or able to make those changes,
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: because sometimes I think another piece of this is that
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: willingness and ability and that goes both ways. So what
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: do I want from my partner and are they willing
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: and able? But also to kind of look inward and
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: ask myself what do I need to change to make
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: this better in the relationship?
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: And am I willing and able to make that change?
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: That's hard. I mean, it's so easy to like get
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: other people and be like, Okay, you know what's wrong
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: with you? Right, But when it comes to like that me, wah,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: how dare you like that kind of thing? You know?
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: As you were talking? Could I also just share there's
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: one activity that I love doing with all different kinds
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: of clients. I use it with clients who are dating,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: you know, and interested in getting into a relationship also
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: clients or what do I do about the relationship that
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: I'm in? Which is an activity where I get people
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: to just list out what are the parts of a
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: healthy relationship to you because there are relationships are multi dimensional,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: you know, and there are all kinds of different facets.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: There could be your what are you like as social partners?
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: What is physical intimacy like? What is communication like? What
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: is your parenting team like? Are you on the same
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: page around money? What do you like to do for fun? Spirituality?
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, and be different for every person. So not
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: saying that's what it has to be, but like, what
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: are all of the different pieces that make up a whole?
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: And then I'll actually get people to make a pie chart.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: So in this whole relationship, how much of it is
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: actually physical connection? How much of it is a spiritual
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: alignment or whatever, So that there's this awareness of not
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: just these are the parts that are missing, but also
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: sometimes I think a recognition and appreciation for the strengths
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: that a relationship does, because all relationships are a mixed bag.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is very rare to find a relationship
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: with there's no ambivalence when that's true. I just wanted
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: to share that as a technique that anybody listening, you
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: can do that on your own. You don't need somebody
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: like me or George walking through it just to get
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: a snapshot clarity around what you want and how interesting
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: if you could do that with a partner too, right,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: or their sense of like, well, actually, here's what I
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: think a healthy relationship is. Wouldn't that be interesting to know? Right?
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that is so helpful because I think
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: what that does is it taps back into the value system,
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: which is soual and knowing where that end goal is
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: for both partners, and without that, we don't really have
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: a good compass. And like you said, having both partners
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: do that is so helpful too, because you both may
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: agree on paper that you, for example, want to have
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: a better sex life, right, But then if you were
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: to explore more of what that actually means for each individual,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: that could be very different, and that might be where
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: the disconnect has been all these years. As one person
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: thinks and here's yeah, I want a good sex life,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: but really their partners is meaning something entirely different about
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: that you are, and that can constantly kind of be
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: a misunderstanding in the relationship if that's really well defined.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and even like going into the details of what
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: exactly would be Oh, I couldn't play video games for
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: five hours every night, and also have that other thing
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: be true, So like, how are you going to make
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: this happen? And kind of bumping up against the things
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: that people want to prioritize because yeah.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But where a lot of that clarity I
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: think comes from and making an informed decision is really
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: just clearly identifying in a very like safe and contained way.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: You know, here's what I mean when I say this
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: should be different. This is what I want both partners
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: to say that out loud and then to be able
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: to kind of come together at an arrived decision of like, Okay,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I can so do that. I didn't realize that's what
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: you wanted, But now that I know, I know, and
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I would love to use whatever resource possible to make
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: it happen for you. Or like oh wow, I realized
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: that's what you meant by that. Wow, Okay, I don't
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: know if I had that inn anymore, right, Like, I've
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: tried that before and I can't do that again. And
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: just honest conversation about your willingness and ability to be
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: those expectations for your partner.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Georgie can ask you about just like another scenario
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: that's sort of bubbling up in my mind, you know,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I know for a fact that we have at least
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: one friend listening to this right now who the relationship
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: is in a place where it feels like their partner
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: is so withdrawn that they might not be participating in
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: these conversations. Maybe they've been like, hey, let's go talk
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: to this marriage counselor Georgie about the situation, and their
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: partners just shut down, no avoiding it, totally stonewalled, and
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: it feels like this person almost has to make this
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: decision on their own. Is there any place for doing
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: the type of work we're talking about right now as
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: an individual if your partner is like not even interested
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: in having these conversations?
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, Yeah, Okay, I find that individual work extremely helpful.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: I do think it looks different, obviously, and basically the
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: focus becomes, how can we get enough clarity for you
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: to make an informed decision without your partner participating? And
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: sometimes that means let's approach.
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: The conversation a different way.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Let's work on your communication tools to help you ask
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: that question differently so your partner might engage. And sometimes
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: it's you know, if you didn't get any more information,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: how are you going to make this decision based on
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: what you do have on the table, and going back
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: to the values, going back to data that they already
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: have from years of being with that person, and just
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: really helping them feel confident in whatever decision that they do.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Doesn't including doing nothing. By the way, I just want
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: to say for the record that it is also a
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: totally valid option to stay in a marriage or in
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: a relationship for all kinds of reasons. You know, I
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: have had clients do a lot of work like what
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: we're talking about and get absolute clarity. This is never
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: going to be different. It is never going to be
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: a good relationship for me. This person is not emotionally available.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: This is what I can't expect from them. I have
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: lost hope and I am actually going to stay here
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: anyway because of all these other reasons they are a
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: reasonably good parent to my kid, or there could be
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: a I mean even financial reasons, cohabitation reasons like I
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: would not be able to support myself and my child
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: if I did leave. It's all okay, So I just
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: want to say that there's no action required necessarily, but
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I think that knowing is still valuable for.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, because the not knowing is what eats people alive, right, Yeah,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: ambiguity is the what ifs can just write really take over.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: But after all of this, I think it's where it's
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: saying that with disarment work, it's two things meant to
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: be bringing so it's meant to be, but really no
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: more than like I try to keep it seven sessions
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: out the most. Obviously there's nuance depending on what's going on,
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: and that's mostly for couples. Individuals might be different, but
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: it's meant to be a brief format there because we
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: don't want to be in this ambiguous place long have
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: to and we shouldn't. But then also the whole point
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: of getting clarity to make and a decision is, you know,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: deciding on one of three paths and discernment work. Obviously
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: we've talked a lot about two paths separation or divorce
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: and then a couple's therapy or couple's coaching. There is
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: that third path that you're describing right now, Lisa, which
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: is status quo, and that is perfectly fine for many reasons.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: That's the safest and best path for the relationship, and
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: so that's definitely not off the table and discernment work.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: It's just most people have been on that path for
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: so long and that's why they reach out and so like, Okay,
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: this isn't working, so let's decide.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: On one of the other two.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but when I'm meeting with couples, I definitely keep
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: that on the table at first until I get a
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: sense of how they're feeling about it.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well, and I think too, you know, but
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: even if you do wind up choosing status quo, no,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: there's so much less mental and emotional energy. You can
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: be like, this is what I am doing for the
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: next five years, and I know that I am not
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: going to get happiness or pleasure from this particular relationship.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: So how do we be civil? How do we cohabitate
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: under the same roof? How do I make other friends?
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: How do I invest in myself on my hobby so
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: that I can have a nice life anyway in this context, right,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: without feeling bad about the relationship being what it is.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, And that's one of my
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: biggest goals at the end of discernment is making true
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: people feel equipped for that path. So do they have
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: ores to row or safe doctor board on? Basically, and
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: that cludes with status quo? Do you have the individual
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: resources you need to feel stable being in.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Like, what are we talking about? Are those the things
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: that I mentioned? Are you thinking of something else right now?
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: I be Yeah.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Can I take ownership and responsibility for my own happiness
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: if nothing else around me is going to change? Can
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: I use my support system? Can I advocate for myself
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: in other ways? Can I lean into the strengths and
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: positives about this relationship and focus on those. Can I
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: engage in individual coaching to kind of have that kind
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: of support. It could be anything, but no matter what,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: people will leave with deserment, not just having made a decision,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: but having a path. And I think that's really important
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: to mention that, whether it's deciding on how we're going
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: to coparent if we choose separation, getting a contact to
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: reach out for an attorney or a mediator, or is
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: it getting connected with a referral for coaching a couple's work,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: you know, things like that. That's something I really believe in,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: is making sure people feel like they really.
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: Have what they need after a decision is made.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but there it is. I mean, that's one of
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I think the big differences between what we think of
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: is traditional therapy, which is insight about how we feel
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: about things, whereas coaching is, yes, we still get insight,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: we still talk about things, and then it turns into
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: an action plans it will change something, which is the
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: goal here. Okay, so Georgia, we need to take another
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: super quick break. But on the other side of this,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: I would love for you to share, if you're open
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: to it, a couple of stories with us. Some examples
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: do identified. Of course, we're not going to reveal anybody's name, address,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: and social Security number here on the Love, Happiness and
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Success podcast, but like what you have seen this look
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: like what the process is and what unfolds and the
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: final outcome, because I want anybody listening to this who's
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: just stuck in this place to feel less afraid of
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: this process, because that's one of the barriers, isn't it. Yeah,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: it's frustrating to be stuck, but sometimes having clarity can
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: feel threatening and it doesn't have to yeap, that makes sense.
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's great.
• 37:28
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• 39:33
  Speaker 1: So welcome back. We are here with marriage and family
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: therapist Georgie Sizik to talk about how we can get
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: clarity about a relationship and so, Georgie, just before we
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: took our break, we agreed to take our final lap,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: the final third of this podcast with a deep dive
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: into what transformation looks like. But no matter what direction
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: it goes in so somebody comes in, they are stuck.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: It has not felt good for a long time. Maybe
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: somebody is more committed than somebody else, but there's this paralysis.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Tell us where you start, what happens next, and then
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: what this can look like for a couple, no matter
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: what direction they go in.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, Okay, Yeah, So I'll start with kind
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: of like the structure i'd take, and then I'll paint
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: a picture of how those outcomes might look based on
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: some of the clients I've had. Really, no matter what,
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of starting from, you know, what's what's brought
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: you here?
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: Why are we? You know?
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: You know it's the ambiguous place, kind of getting a
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: story from them.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: What is the water under the bridge that has led
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: you to this moment?
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Yeah.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: And that's both good and bad, right, Like I want
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: to hear about the positive moments because usually there's a
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: lot of history. They wouldn't feel so ambiguous if there
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: wasn't good in the relationship, and that's really important to
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: hear as well.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: And then diving into what's.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Not gone well over the past years, especially recently, that's
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: led you to this decision point.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: I'm getting a feel of who's leaning in, who's leaning
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: out and why, And.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Then I'm trying to understand what needs to be different
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: for us to choose the reconciliation.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: And you have some of these conversations actually privately, this
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: is not two people sitting on the couch together. You
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: are breaking people up to be like, Okay, what's really
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: going on, what's has been like for you? What do
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: you need for this to be different?
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good point.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: I'll start off session one together getting just their story,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: so the good at times that stuff. Then after that,
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: every session I typically start with dividing it up into
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: one on one time. In that one on one time,
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: I'm meet with you know, one partner first and I'll
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: ask them, you know, what do you need to be different?
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: What is the hard stuff.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: That I really need to know about that you need
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: change here? What has this been like for you being
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: in this ambiguous place? You know? And then after that
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: we usually end every session after that breakout just kind
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: of summarizing so that both partners are on the same
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: page about what clarity came from that conversation and no.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Secrets you're telling here's what was said when I was
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: in my individual meeting.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: That's good, Yeah, exactly.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: And that's so helpful because I think people usually at
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: that point just want to just oh, get it all
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: out there, right, and they don't want to have to
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: filter it, and they want to be able to say.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: What they want to say.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: But with the knowledge that their partner needs some kind
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: of summary of that, I can help them curate that
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: in a way that isn't going to lead to a
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: conflict and defensiveness and shutting down, right. So and that
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: one on one time I'll hear the unfiltered version of
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: what they're thinking, and then we come back together I'll
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: be able to provide size summary so.
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: That yes's a sanitized version. It says the same thing,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: but the beeped version, right, take out the cuss words.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And the hope is at every session more, through
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: more and more conversation, there's more and more clarity. And
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: it's almost like imagining us creating a sculpture, right where
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: you start with just big shapes and then you choose
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: a little bit more away and you can kind of
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: start to see what it's supposed to look like, and
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: then the next session we do a little bit more
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: and then there's the detail of like the nose and
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: the eye. Eventually we see a full image that's kind
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: of the hope session by session.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, so then let's just if you don't mind,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: I'd love to hear this. You know, Jack and Jill
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: come in and Jill is leaning out. She's like, I
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: don't know anymore and Jack is like, oh no, but
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: I love you, right, And so that's where they start
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: and this story, you know, door number one. Jack and
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Jill at the end of this decide, you know what,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: we're going to give this another try. We're going to
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: sign on for six months of couple's work where we're
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: both trying real hard to make this better. But you
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: need to navigate them to that point because no work
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: at all can be done unless they're on the same
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: page about wanting that. So from your perspective, what are
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: you hearing Jack and Jill talking about in those individual
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: moments that are like, Okay, you know what, there's some
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: there there and I can work with this, and that
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: lead them to a Okay, let's give this another try.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: So the thing I hear most is just a lot
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: of clarity around what's needed. So what that sounds like
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: sometimes is one partner being like, oh, you know, I
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: didn't realize that's what you meant by that.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: Now I get it. And the other.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Partner's like, finally hated this whole time, And so there's
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: clarity around what needs to be different and the kind of,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: like you mentioned from the very beginning, the weight of
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: why that's so important to that person too. Yeah, the
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: leaning out partner feels more validated, more like, Hey, my
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: needs are heard finally. And then on top of that,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: I hear a lot of just committed language right like
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: I think I can do that.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: I would love to.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, six months of couples therapy sounds dual for me.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even though.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: We can acknowledge it's going to be hard work and
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: it's going to work a lot of energy and emotional
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: commitment to them, for them, there's still this like willingness
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: in their voice and their landage.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: So it sounds like in that process and I don't
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: want to oversimplify this, so please correct me if I am,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: but you have restored hope. There's this hope like, oh,
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: this feels different. Maybe things could be different, but you
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: have also created enough clarity so that making it different.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: It feels attainable. It's not vague. It is here are
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: the things that you will have to change in order.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: And then people see that and they're like, oh, I
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: can do that, right. So it's like taking this big,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: scary like oh my gosh, I was this ever going
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: to be different, and turned it into something that feels
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: more actionable. For lack of a better word, is that yeah.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and also not just oversimplified, but it just
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: feels clear. It just feels like, Okay, yeah, we know
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: where the other side of the lake is. We even
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: though there's foggy outside, we know that it's there. We
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: know that to get there we need to row due north.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: We know that we need this row in that row,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: and we can agree for the next six months to
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: do that work together.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, see that's OK because I sort of want
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: to say this again out loud, you know, because I
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: think we also have a responsibility, Georgia. We're both therapists,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: like nobody's bashi and therapy, but I think that many
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: times people have had experiences in conventional therapy where it's
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of talking about feelings or rehashing things and
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: there is not a clear connection with how is this
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: going to make it different for anybody, and so it
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: feels disappointing. And I mean a lot of people who
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: get to this point Georgie that we're talking about, they've
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: done that couple's therapy right where it's just a lot
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: of this like churning, and so what we're talking about
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: is very different. Of course, we're going to talk about
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: how people feel and what they do. I think what
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: the history was, but that's like part of it. We
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: talk about that so that we know what to do differently.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to say that out loud because I
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: think that people could also feel beaten down and discouraged
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: by previous efforts to get like help for this. If
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: it was the wrong kind of help, is that? Did
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I say that right from your perspective?
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Or it was the wrong kind of help? And like
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: we said at the beginning with that analogy, if one
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: partner had their foot on the dock, that help could
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: have been a great instructor on how to row. But
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: if they're missing that that foot was on the dock keeping.
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: The boat from leaving.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it doesn't matter what you do, It doesn't
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: matter what you learn, It doesn't matter what insight you
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: have if that commitment is within question, you're always going
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: to feel stuck.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Absolutely well, And like, I don't know about you, but
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: I bet that this came up in a clinical consultation
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: group that we were part of together the other day. Like,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: I think there are so many times it, even experienced
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: couples come like, start working with a couple and everybody's like, yes, yes,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: we want a better relationship, but then get like six, eight,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: ten sessions in and it feels so stuck that you know,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: what came up in our consultation group the other day
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: was they need to be referred to discernment coaching because
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: there's like these people are on a different page and
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: that's not always known. So I just want to say
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: that to anybody listening to this too, Like if you've
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: been trying to work on things and it's not getting better,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: and it's scary to think about, but consider the possibility
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: that you're actually not in alignment around the commitment to
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: the effort or even the desire. That's not uncommon.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And I do want to mention
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: too with that. It's even if there's clarity and a
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: clear path and both partners are like, yes, I want
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: to do it. That does not mean that you, especially
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: the leaning out partner, but even the leaning and partner
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: might still have a lot of feelings of uncertainty. Yeah,
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: so if that happens, that's super normal. It does not
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: mean you've chosen the wrong path. That just means that
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: you have a lot of experiences locked away in your
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: brain that's telling you this is scary. I'm gonna take
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: a big risk, and I'm not sure I want to
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: do that again, But the logic part of my brain
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: believes that I might could and and I'll be different.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Having those two in conflict, even when committing to six
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: months of couple therapy is so normal. And that's also
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: something I work with couples who decide on that path
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: to kind of discern really. Yeah, so that scared part
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: of my brain as a voice that's telling me I
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: chose the wrong path or is that just my nervous
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: system doing it totally? Well?
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: How normal though, I mean, if you have a lot
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: of bad experiences with somebody, I mean, the way that
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: trust is actually healed is not by making a decision
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: to trust somebody. It is by having what we call
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: corrective emotional experiences. It's by trying these things, like, Okay,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: I didn't fall through the ice on the frozen pond.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: It held my weight. So I'm going to chat a
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: little bit further. Am I going to follow through? And
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: so you know, as this moves forward, we are transformed
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: by experience, not by this like magical. I'm going to
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: trust you now, like that is really not how this works.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, okay, so
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: quickly before we end, I want to hear two more
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: stories of happy transformation when people go through other doors
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: in this Georgie, because I need people to hear that
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: even if it feels scary to go through one of
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: the other doors, this is still a happy ending. So
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: tell us the story of Nate and Natalie. They are
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: in the same place and they do this work with
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: you and decide like, yeah, neither of us really committed
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: to changing anything or not. Both of us are committed
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: to changing things, but we're not going to get divorced.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: We're not going to separate for a variety of reasons.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: Tell us how that unfolds. What are the things that
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: you hear that lead people to arrive at that, and
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: how can that also be a good thing.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So for Nate and Natalie's situation. I think what
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: I hear most is just this feeling like I just
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: don't have what I need to commit to six months
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: of couples work, whether that's time, finance, emotional energy, any
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: really anything. But also I have a lot of love
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: and care left to stay or just logistically it makes
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of sense for me to stay right now,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: and there's a lot of reasoning happening to make that
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: kind of decision for status quo right So it's not
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: it's not this like it feels different than it does
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: at the beginning, and the beginning, what it sounds more
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: like is an avoidance, like, oh.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: My gosh, this a sober wharlming. I don't know what
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna do.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna like get through the next day
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: and hope that tomorrow is better versus at the end
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: of our process, it's a okay, I can see why
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: path for reconciliation isn't good for me right now, I
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: can see why path of divorce isn't good for it
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: right now, and so this path of stasco just feels
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: like the best option and it's calm informed kind of just.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Say yeah, absolutely, yeah, and I could see it also
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: being like, you know, this relationship is not the only
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: thing in my life, right, It's like this thing that
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: seems so big and so huge, and that's all I
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: think about. It is one thing, and there's a lot
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: of other things, and yeah, I'm just gonna like calm down.
• 52:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: And in that regard, there's still this air of hope
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: with even that decision, because while it's not the same
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: kind of hope as maybe my relationship will work if
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: I commit to six months of couples therapy, there's still
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: this hope of like, maybe I can still find satisfaction
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: and like contentment in this season and you know, reevaluate
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: later and maybe that could be not only a tolerable thing,
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: but an enjoyable thing.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: And absolutely into it a little bit. Yeah, oh my gosh,
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: And like even you know, maybe even if we do
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: eventually decide to separate, we could just work on being
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: better friends in the short.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Nate and Natalie come back later saying like that was
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: the best choice for our family at the time, like
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: it helped us just you know, let out the pressure
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: gauge a little bit and allow us to really be
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: present as parents together in the same home and give
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: our kids a really beautiful, you know, last couple of
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: years in high school, and then we leave the house.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: And that has been a very meaningful decision for those couples.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: I think that's awesome.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Okay, very lastly, that I'll let you go, Georgia. This
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: has been so amazing. But let's talk about here. Let's
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: gender neutralize this. Morgan and Devon. We don't know why
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: gender Morgan and Devon are. It's everything's all right, But
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: tell us another story of transformation for this couple who
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: arrive at a content clear like, yes, we feel good
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: about this decision that let's part peacefully us. This isn't
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: going to work. I now we know.
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: So for Morgan and Devin, I think what I hear
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: often is just kind of a very thoughtful, just yeah,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: decision about you know, this feels.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: Like we've done what we can.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: A lot of kind of satisfaction, contentment with what has
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: been attempted previously, and also just a real honest kind
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: of self evaluation about like, you know, I know myself
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: and I can't speak for my partner, but I know
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: for me that you know, for a variety of reasons,
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: this just it doesn't feel okay to do coaching anymore,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel okay for status quo. I need something different
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: to find happiness and stability in my life, uh, and
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: being able to start to picture what life could be
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: like outside of the relationship and also feel excited about
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: that in a lot of ways. So I've had a
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Morgan and Devin start to just describe to me like, well,
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: if I wasn't in this relationship, I would be able
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: to do this, and then oh, and then I could
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: do this, And there's this kind of like, wow, I
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: hadn't thought about this before, or I've thought about this
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: a lot, but now that it's kind of a reality
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: for me, it's exciting and it's scary, sure, but there's
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: this kind of like looking forward to what that chapter
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: could Yeah, And then I think, so this air of
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: support from the other person that like, because I do
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: care about this person, I want them to be happy
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: and I want what's best for them as well, And
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: so hearing them in a safe contained space such as
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: discernment coaching to describe what that would be like, I
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: think is really helpful for the other person to hear
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: choose to just allow that person to be happy too.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that you know, this is going to happen
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: without anger, without conflict, without people being mad at each other.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: And I also, Georgie, I feel like I need to
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: say this out loud. You know, there's probably a leaning
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: in partner that we just terrified, like that's their work nightmare, right,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: that their partner would be like. But I just also
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: want to share. So from my perspective, like one of
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: my specialties is heartbreak recovery or relationship loss and how
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: do you move? It is also such a gift in
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways to be with the persons that
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: I don't hate you in some ways, I love you
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: very much in the sense that I care about you
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: and I want to work on this relationship. But I
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: don't and I can't give you what you want and
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: what you need and what you deserve. And even though
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: there's that in the moment and it is scary and
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: hard to hear, the alternative of not really knowing what's
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: going on and not really being able to hear and
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: understand the other person's point of view, or if it's
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: like a you know, it feels like the relationship blows
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: up in a really traumatic way rather than having these
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: kinds of conversations like long term for the healing process
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: is so much more humane. And also, you know, with
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: the support of somebody like you, you can also then
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: help that person. So how can we actually make this
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: better for you? Particularly if these are two parents who
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: now need to transition into Hey, you know what, we're
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: actually still going to be at a relationship with each
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: other for the next fifteen years as co parents, So
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: let's kind of work through some things so that we
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: can do that together. That is such a gift.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: And I know, yeah, I feel like I've had I've
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: had many of those clients too, where leaning and partner,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: though the decision is devastating, there's almost this just feeling
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: of relief that it's made and that they can then
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: their next chapter and begin their own healing, because I think, really,
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: when when they ask, honestly, the purgatory, the not knowing,
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: the ambiguity is so much more painful than the final,
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: you know, decision to reconcile or not.
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: And I think.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: When I hear a lot from those leaning in partners,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: just to give those listeners some hope.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: I know, it's like, what's your advice, what would you.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: Want to know, I've heard time and time again from
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: those people. Not honestly, not very long after that final
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: decision is made, they report to me, Man, I'm so
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: much more calm and relieved. Man, I've been sleeping better
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: than I ever have in the past six years of
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: my marriage. You know, this sucks, and this is so hard,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: but I can finally start to see a path forward
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: and start to make decisions in my life that I
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: didn't even realize I wanted until now. And there's a
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: lot more freedom for even that that well, that's on
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: the other side. So yeah, it's not over.
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: Decision, it's not over.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: Georgie. Thank you so much for sharing that well, and
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing this with me today. Georgie. Again,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: you know, this is just such a common thing that
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: that people experience, and it was very meaningful for me
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: today to have this conversation with you to bring this
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: real world. Okay, here's what to do, here's how we
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: get unstuck and move forward from your vast experience. I mean,
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: you've been doing this for so many years, so I
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: just thank you, thank you. Before we end, I'm just
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: going to do I know that you probably don't even
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: want me to, but I'm going to do it anyway
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: because you know me, I'm gonna get little plug. If
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: anybody hearing this conversation was like, you know what, Georgie
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: is a gem. She is such a genuinely kind, thoughtful,
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: empathetic person with so much not just insight but intuition
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: and clinical knowledge, but also extremely smart and tougher than
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: she looks. Everybody, trust me on this. You can talk
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: to Georgie. You can come of growing yourself dot com
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: forward slash Georgie, just a book, a free consultation and
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: just have that conversation. What could this look like? What
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: is the process us meet he in person and move forward?
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, is there anything you'd like somebody else to know
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: about that?
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: I think that sounds wonderful.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: I'm absolutely here to support anybody in this decision, and
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: whether it's a couple or individual like.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: We talked about them.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm definitely hearing ready and would love just to
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: hear your story for you and making this informed decision.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: You are such a helper all the way through, Georgie.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: I love it. Thanks again for this and I will
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: talk to you.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: I take care.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending this time with me today,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: and if you have found this episode helpful, do your
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: good deed for the day, Pass it on, pay it forward,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: Share this episode with someone you care about who might
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: need to hear what you just heard today. Close your eyes,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: think about who that is, and then boop hits end. Now.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: As for you, if you are feeling inspired by what
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: we talked about today, if you're ready to go deeper,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: whether it's in your relationship, your own personal development, or
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: maybe even your bigger sense of purpose, I would love
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: to help you. Come visit me at growing self dot com.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: I have so many free resources for you, but you
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: can also schedule a free consultation with one of the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: amazing licensed therapists on my team, who, like me, specialize
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: in evidence based coaching psychology. You can do that. You
• 1:01:43
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• 1:01:49
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• 1:01:52
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• 1:01:56
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• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: collection where you can find exactly what you need to
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: support your journey of growth. And hey, let's also stay connected.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: If we're not already connected, come track me down. I
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: am on Instagram periodically and would love to hear from you,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: or if you have a question or comment about the show,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: just email me get in touch hello at growingself dot com.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: All Right, until next time, you take care and keep
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: growing