Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #239 The Age of Consent with Katrina Marson

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#239 The Age of Consent with Katrina Marson · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, when we are more open with our children from
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  Speaker 2: a younger age, it actually benefits them as they get
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  Speaker 2: older and they make safe for healthier decisions.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 2: Hello. This is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six
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  Speaker 2: books about raising happy families and the founder of happy
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  Speaker 2: Families dot com dot a you. I'm here with my
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  Speaker 2: wife and co host and mum to our six daughters, Kylie,
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  Speaker 2: and today we're speaking with somebody who is going to
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  Speaker 2: help us to better understand all of this stuff that's
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  Speaker 2: going on in the media at the moment, around our
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  Speaker 2: federal politicians, around Schnell Kontos and her petition, the whole
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  Speaker 2: consent and assault stuff.
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  Speaker 3: Her name is.
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  Speaker 2: Katrina Marson and Katrina works with the implementation of relationships
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  Speaker 2: and sex education more broadly in schools, within and within
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  Speaker 2: communities here in Australia. A quick note, by the way,
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  Speaker 2: while we're not going to be having any explicit discussion,
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  Speaker 2: some people might prefer that their children don't listen to
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  Speaker 2: what we have to say. And Katrina, you have another
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  Speaker 2: job working as a prosecutor in Canberra.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you both so much for having me on. It's
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  Speaker 4: a pleasure to be here. So I am a sexual
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  Speaker 4: offensive prosecutor in my daily job in the Act. So
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  Speaker 4: my work is primarily as a criminal lawyer, but I
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  Speaker 4: have a very significant research interest in sexual violence prevention
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  Speaker 4: and particularly the use of relationships and sexuality education as
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  Speaker 4: a protective factor in safeguarding sexual wellbeing. And so I've
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  Speaker 4: conducted a Churchill fellowship where I went to six countries
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  Speaker 4: across Europe and North America looking at the implementation of
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  Speaker 4: relationships and sex ed as a means of safeguarding sexual wellbeing.
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  Speaker 4: And I brought back a lot of lessons from all
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  Speaker 4: of those countries into how we might be able to
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  Speaker 4: implement that here in this country as a means of
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  Speaker 4: looking after for our young people.
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  Speaker 3: In the media recently Katrina, a young girl, Chanelle Contos
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  Speaker 3: has demanded that can send education be taught in our
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  Speaker 3: school system? Why is it so important for this to
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  Speaker 3: happen within the schools.
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  Speaker 4: It's a really good question, and I think what we've
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  Speaker 4: seen out of the petition that Msscontos has launched is
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  Speaker 4: that just the sheer numbers of young people who are
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  Speaker 4: drawing the connection between the deficiency and their education around
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  Speaker 4: this stuff and the experiences of sexual violence and harassment
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  Speaker 4: that they've had. So it's important that we see this
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  Speaker 4: kind of education in schools for a number of reasons,
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  Speaker 4: and the main one is that through schools you can
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  Speaker 4: access most children in the school environment. The other thing
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  Speaker 4: is we know that relationships and sexuality education is a
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  Speaker 4: specialist subject. We need to make sure it's taught by
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  Speaker 4: people who are trained to do so effectively, and we
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  Speaker 4: need to make sure that what is being delivered is
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  Speaker 4: borne out by the research and the evidence. And so
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  Speaker 4: when you're doing it through the school system, there's a
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  Speaker 4: capacity to make sure that the teachers are qualified to
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  Speaker 4: deliver it and that we can and we can evaluate
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  Speaker 4: and measure what in fact is being delivered and have
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  Speaker 4: I guess a degree of quality assurance there.
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  Speaker 3: So we're talking about needing to educate our children within
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  Speaker 3: the school system. But what part do families play in this, Katrina,
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  Speaker 3: I mean there needs to be some collaboration. I would
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  Speaker 3: have thought for us to be able to really work
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  Speaker 3: through this.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, So I'm going to just quickly jump in before
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  Speaker 2: you answer, Katrina, It's something that I hear time and
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  Speaker 2: again on our Facebook page, particularly his parents are saying,
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  Speaker 2: we don't want this to well. Actually, there's two schools
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  Speaker 2: of thought. There's some people who are saying, I've got
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  Speaker 2: no idea what to say. I need the schools to
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  Speaker 2: come in. But then there are others who are saying,
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  Speaker 2: teachers are not professionals and it's my job to teach
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  Speaker 2: morality and sexuality and respect. It's not up to the schools.
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  Speaker 2: It seems like this is a really polarizing kind of topics.
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  Speaker 2: So to piggyback on Kylee's question about what role to
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  Speaker 2: parents play, how do we actually get this balance right
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  Speaker 2: where the state's stepping in and the parents are saying
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  Speaker 2: yes or no to that.
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  Speaker 4: It's a really good question, and there are actually a
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  Speaker 4: number of aspects to the answer.
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  Speaker 5: But to start off with Kylie, You're exactly right.
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  Speaker 4: This is a matter that needs collaboration between the school
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  Speaker 4: and the home. As I've said before, you can't silo
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  Speaker 4: responsibility to either.
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  Speaker 5: The school or the home. It needs to be both.
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  Speaker 4: And that was really consistent in what I saw overseas
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  Speaker 4: everywhere I went where they had successful relationships and sexuality
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  Speaker 4: education programs. They were very committed to bringing in the
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  Speaker 4: home and parents along with that conversation they were having
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  Speaker 4: with the young people in the schools. And so, for example,
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  Speaker 4: I would see programs where they would for every lesson
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  Speaker 4: they gave to the students, there would be a complimentary
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  Speaker 4: lesson or not session, I should say, for the parents beforehand,
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  Speaker 4: so that parents would know what was going to be
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  Speaker 4: discussed with their young people and what that conversation would
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  Speaker 4: look like. And that's not just so that they can
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  Speaker 4: have that input, which is of course important, but also
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  Speaker 4: just as you've indicated, justin for those parents who need
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  Speaker 4: assistance or want assistance in how to talk to their
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  Speaker 4: young people about this, how to improve their own literacy
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  Speaker 4: around these topics, how do know what questions to expect
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  Speaker 4: at what ages, and how to respond to them. So
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  Speaker 4: it's about building up skills across entire communities, not just
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  Speaker 4: for the young people and their parents, but everyone about
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  Speaker 4: how we talk about these matters. But coming back to
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  Speaker 4: your question about whether these questions or these issues of
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  Speaker 4: morality and sexuality belong in the home or whether they
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  Speaker 4: belong as something that the state looks after, it's about
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  Speaker 4: striking the balance between the two. And what's important about
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  Speaker 4: comprehensive relationships and sexuality education is that it is predominantly
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  Speaker 4: about access to information, information that can be used to
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  Speaker 4: protect sexual wellbeing as young people go into that stage
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  Speaker 4: of their lives later. And what we know is that
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  Speaker 4: the earlier you talk to young people about this in
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  Speaker 4: an age appropriate way, the later they are likely to
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  Speaker 4: have their first sexual experiences, and the less likely they
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  Speaker 4: are to have negative sexual experiences.
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  Speaker 5: So that's really important to bear in mind when we're
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  Speaker 5: talking about the need to have this conversation with young
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  Speaker 5: people and to protect them with it.
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  Speaker 2: So this is fascinating and it's something that I've always
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  Speaker 2: been intrigued by in the research, this idea that when
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  Speaker 2: we are more open with our children from a younger age,
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  Speaker 2: it actually benefits them as they get older and they
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  Speaker 2: make safer, healthier decisions. In just a sec we're going
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  Speaker 2: to quiz Katrina about morality and some of the big
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  Speaker 2: ticket items, some of these challenges that parents face as
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  Speaker 2: they try to navigate these conversations with their children around
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  Speaker 2: consent and sex education. That's coming up next on the
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  Speaker 2: Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast.
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  Speaker 3: For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because
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  Speaker 3: a happy family doesn't just happen.
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  Speaker 2: Details at happy families dot com dot au.
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  Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're
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  Speaker 3: talking with Katrina Marsden about sex education and consent in
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  Speaker 3: our schools.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, so, Katrina, I've received and I regularly receive comments
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  Speaker 2: from parents who really have big issues with what is
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  Speaker 2: taught in schools when it comes to sex education. And
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  Speaker 2: there's a couple of things that come up fairly consistently.
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  Speaker 2: Number One, there are usually quite conservative parents who will say,
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  Speaker 2: I don't want my children being taught all of the
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  Speaker 2: gender diversity stuff. They're uncomfortable with some of those aspects
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  Speaker 2: that could be taught in this curriculum. Another thing that
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  Speaker 2: comes up remarkably regularly is this idea that the mechanics
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  Speaker 2: of sex is taught, but not the reality of what
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  Speaker 2: it is to leave an intimate life with someone. That is,
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  Speaker 2: the emotional intimacy stuff is divorced from the physical intimacy.
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  Speaker 2: A third thing that I've been hearing recently since Chanell
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  Speaker 2: Kontos's petition has been what's the point in doing sex
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  Speaker 2: education and consent? Anyway, Consent is a low bar and
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  Speaker 2: the kids as goes in one ear and out the other.
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  Speaker 2: As you've traveled the world and as you've dealt with
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  Speaker 2: all of these big issues and watched what other countries
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  Speaker 2: are doing, what has stood out to you in response
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  Speaker 2: to these not necessarily specifically these issues, but these kinds
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  Speaker 2: of issues more generally.
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  Speaker 4: Sure, I think what is consistent between those those concerns
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  Speaker 4: that you've just listed is that what makes good quality
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  Speaker 4: relationships and sexuality education is when it is holistic and comprehensive.
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  Speaker 4: So you can't just isolate a discussion about consent away
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  Speaker 4: from a discussion about respectful relationships and bodies and puberty
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  Speaker 4: and personal boundaries and families.
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  Speaker 5: It needs to be embedded in a.
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  Speaker 4: B a more holistic education program that is really important,
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  Speaker 4: and that was consistent in every country that I went to.
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  Speaker 4: What's important to remember about this kind of education is
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  Speaker 4: that it is certainly in the international spirit. It's been
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  Speaker 4: described as a life course intervention that increases the health
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  Speaker 4: and well being of young people, and that's because it
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  Speaker 4: can help them expand their knowledge of sexual and reproductive health.
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  Speaker 4: And rights, but help them develop communication, decision making, risk
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  Speaker 4: reduction skills, they can adopt positive and responsible attitudes towards sexuality.
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  Speaker 4: These are the important things that we hope to deliver
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  Speaker 4: in any good comprehensive Relationships and Sexuality education module.
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  Speaker 2: So it sounds like it's exactly the opposite of I
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  Speaker 2: had a couple of people on my Facebook page recently
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  Speaker 2: with one of these topics, say we just need to
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  Speaker 2: go back to teaching abstinence until you're married. But it
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  Speaker 2: sounds like you're you're indicating that the research evidence you've
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  Speaker 2: found would be quite contradictory to that.
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  Speaker 4: Yes, it suggests that the opposite, and it's important to
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  Speaker 4: emphasize the age appropriateness of it. Of course, we're talking
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  Speaker 4: about anything that when we're talking to young people about this,
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  Speaker 4: that would be done in an age appropriate fashion. But
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  Speaker 4: one thing that I would like to highlight is what
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  Speaker 4: was consistent overseas is that this was treated as a
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  Speaker 4: specialist subject matter. So they had experts who would design
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  Speaker 4: these programs, people who understand pedagogy and behavioral change, and
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  Speaker 4: using these education methods to, as I say, ensure that
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  Speaker 4: we have later first sexual experiences and when those sexual
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  Speaker 4: experiences happen, that they are less likely.
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  Speaker 5: To be negative.
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  Speaker 4: Those were the people who were designing these curriculums and
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  Speaker 4: helping them to be delivered or the teachers to be
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  Speaker 4: trained to deliver them. Well, it's not just that someone
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  Speaker 4: overseas said to me, Bob from geography can just teach
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  Speaker 4: because he's.
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  Speaker 5: Got a spare period period. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: So that's certainly something that I think is really important
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  Speaker 4: to remember in this conversation, and it's about acting on
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  Speaker 4: the evidence about what we know this education is capable of.
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  Speaker 3: This is just a fascinating conversation, Katrina. When I think
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  Speaker 3: about the experiences that we've had as parents with our
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  Speaker 3: six girls, they've been to a number of schools over
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  Speaker 3: you know, a lifetime of schooling. For us, we've been
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  Speaker 3: to only one school where sex education included parents in
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  Speaker 3: the process, and it was such a powerful evening to
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  Speaker 3: attend and to be able to, you know, sit side
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  Speaker 3: by side with your child and hear the same words
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  Speaker 3: and terminology used, and you know, use that as a
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  Speaker 3: I guess, a jumping use that as a springboard, a springboard,
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  Speaker 3: thank you, use that as a springboard to you know,
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  Speaker 3: start and initiate conversations within the home, and so this
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  Speaker 3: seems to be an area where we're really just you know,
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  Speaker 3: missing the mark with families and children. You know, we
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  Speaker 3: want to empower everybody through this process. So if I'm
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  Speaker 3: a parent and I don't want my children to being
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  Speaker 3: a participant or even an author of a partisant such
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  Speaker 3: as Chanel Contos is one, or having to deal with
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  Speaker 3: the appalling actions of predominantly males, but let's not you know,
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  Speaker 3: kind of pick on them too much that we're seeing
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  Speaker 3: in the Parliament at the moment. What can I do
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  Speaker 3: as a parent? How can I arm my children, safeguard
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  Speaker 3: them and help them to develop age appropriately and start
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  Speaker 3: to experience, you know, positive relationships with their peers.
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  Speaker 4: Sure, and again I go back to that point that
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  Speaker 4: I made earlier about going to the sort of expert
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  Speaker 4: designed material that is out there. There are people who
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  Speaker 4: know how to do this well and how to do
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  Speaker 4: it effectively. And so I can point you, for example,
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  Speaker 4: to the Rutgers the Rutgers Institute in the Netherlands. They
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  Speaker 4: are the ones responsible for designing their award winning program
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  Speaker 4: spring Fever. So if you search spring Fever Rutgers, that's
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  Speaker 4: r U t g eers in Google, it will take
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  Speaker 4: you there. Sure, Sure, and then Big Talk Education in
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  Speaker 4: the UK is another example. And then if you're wanting
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  Speaker 4: to talk about consent, I can point you to the
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  Speaker 4: Rape and Sexual Assault Research and Advocacy organization that I'm
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  Speaker 4: part of, ROSARA dot org. They have a consent toolkit
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  Speaker 4: which includes sort of how you might discuss the issue
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  Speaker 4: of consent with young people specifically.
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  Speaker 5: But again, I'd say that that conversation.
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  Speaker 4: Needs to be part of a more broader, holistic discussion
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  Speaker 4: about respectful relationships and sexuality.
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  Speaker 5: And that's something.
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  Speaker 4: That, as I say, if you search out, for example,
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  Speaker 4: sexual health and family planning organizations often have good materials
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  Speaker 4: on their websites. There are people out there who have
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  Speaker 4: invested a lot of research and expertise in this, and
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  Speaker 4: they do have some really good products out there for parents.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Katrina, I like what you've done, and I'm frustrated
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  Speaker 2: by what you've done, because what you've essentially said is
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you what to do, but
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  Speaker 2: here are some really great resources from people who are
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  Speaker 2: excellent at it. And that's probably It's one of those
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  Speaker 2: fastest slow but slow as fast things. And I think
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  Speaker 2: that it's probably the right way to go. So it's
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  Speaker 2: been a delight to talk with you. Thank you so
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  Speaker 2: much for your expertise and the things you've shared.
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  Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 2: That's Katrina Marson. She works in the implementation of relationship
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  Speaker 2: and sex education in schools and within communities, and also
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  Speaker 2: works as a lawyer in the act. What a fascinating discussion.
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  Speaker 2: If you have enjoyed the podcast, we always love it
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: when you leave ratings and reviews to help others to
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: discover the podcast. Five star ratings and reviews at Apple
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Podcasts do that. The Happy Families podcast is produced by
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Our executive producer is Craig Bruce.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: If you'd like more information about how to make your
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: family happier, you can check out the show notes. That's
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: where we'll link to everything Katrina's talk about, or visit
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  Speaker 2: happyfamilies dot com dot a um HM