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Creating Change Through Podcasting with Espree Devora · Buzzcast

• 0:00
  Espree: Don't think about how many listens that I get. Think about how can I utilize this for my existing community don't think about it in such like a selfish way of like, like why am I not getting more? Why am I not getting more like I need I need I want I want instead think of it like, how can I optimize this to champion listeners?
• 0:28
  Alban: Hey friends, welcome back to the podcast. I am so excited today. My guest is a spree.
• 0:33
  Alban: devorah Asprey is a podcaster.
• 0:37
  Alban: She's an entrepreneur, she's a speaker, and she's the host of multiple, highly successful podcasts like the women in tech podcast, the we are la tech podcast. And if you just spend enough time online, I feel like you write it to a spree kind of all over the place very active on pretty much every social media platform that I ever get on to. And if she looks familiar, it might be because you recognize her as the former face of clubhouse. She was the icon for the clubhouse app, because she was a super early adopter and now runs many of the largest podcasting clubhouse room. So Asprey, thank you so much for being on the podcast with me today.
• 1:19
  Espree: Thank you for having me here. The one thing that you left out was an a mega fan of Buzzsprout. Like, I just think
• 1:28
  Alban: he's also a mega fan of Buzzsprout.
• 1:30
  Espree: Right. I think that is so what you're doing for the community and how you're elevating podcasters to be on top of their game is so awesome.
• 1:38
  Espree: And you know, I'm not just saying that because I see that just in about every clubhouse room.
• 1:43
  Alban: Yeah, we first met on clubhouse. I think the headliner team connected us. And I love just having conversations with you. Most of the club, I was talking about podcasting, and community. And that was why it kind of made perfect sense. I was like, man, we've got to get you onto this Buzzsprout conversation show and share your message with everybody on Buzzsprout. I'm excited. Thank you for having me. So you've been podcasting since 2014.
• 2:08
  Alban: You've been in podcasting longer than I have
• 2:12
  Espree: i for i started podcasting in 2013. And I launched the we are early tech podcast in 2014. I start producing in 2013, because it takes time to brand the show and to schedule the guests and think about the intent of the show. So I just started producing it and curating what the production would be. And then I and then I recorded and then I launched it.
• 2:35
  Espree: So I got it edited and these kinds of things in 2014. For we are la tech and in 2015 I launched the women in tech podcast.
• 2:44
  Alban: Awesome. That is for anybody watching that is so early in podcasting right now.
• 2:48
  Alban: We just crossed it wasn't 2 million. I think it was cool. I started working at podcasts at the end of 2014. We had not hit 100,000 podcasts total then. And now we are over 2 million in the world. And it's crazy just to see NEOs remarkable to see how quickly the podcast industry has grown and caught on. Can you kind of tell us about that journey and how that's been for you?
• 3:19
  Espree: Yeah, I mean, I also have a point of views in the trajectory of podcasts, like when I started podcasting, if this is okay, or do you want me to stay focused on me because I just don't know
• 3:31
  Alban: interesting. Whatever you would like to share is what we want to talk about.
• 3:35
  Espree: I think I just think it's really interesting that I thought podcasting would follow the trajectory of YouTube. So I'm like, okay, I remember in 2012, I was working this job, I was trying, I was trying to force myself not to be an entrepreneur, it didn't bode well for me. But it was a time where I was like, just stop giving your family panic attacks. So, uh, so I said to my boss at time, I was like, I think you should have a podcast.
• 4:00
  Espree: I think he worked with a lot of the top youtubers in the world.
• 4:04
  Espree: I'm like, I think you should have your, your clients on on a podcast, and they're like, No, no, and I'm like, you know what, I'm going to go off and I'm going to go create a podcast, you know. So I created when I created my podcast, podcasting wasn't a thing, but I had one of the first YouTube channels. So I just felt really confident that I really think this industry is going to go somewhere. It was around that time the startup podcast came out and and so then all the tech startup eventually became gimlet media, which was eventually acquired by Spotify.
• 4:39
  Espree: At this time, no one cared about all these things, except all the tech people because they were documenting a tech company. Then another podcast came out that made it more mainstream. So now you have all the tech influencers talking about podcasting, and the mainstream media talking about podcasting.
• 4:56
  Espree: And then so it's kind of have like these things that happen.
• 5:00
  Espree: Now we're in the phase. And here's my point of why I'm sharing all this is we're in the phase of the podcast is the new blog that I think anyone is just taking a podcasting and they don't really have a why they just feel like Instagram that they're missing out, though I got to be on it because I can't miss I can't miss out. And what's happening as an indie podcast creator is you're under the illusion that oh my gosh, now it's so saturated. Now I don't have a chance. Because there's, you know, crossing over 2 million episodes. But how many are 2 million shows but how many of those shows are graveyard shows because people get discouraged because there's also something called pod fade. And pod fade is like essentially, after I think it's like seven episodes or something people get really discouraged that they don't have the listeners that they want, not knowing if you even have 130 listens a month, it's really successful. So I just think it's interesting, kind of the journey of the podcasting industry overall. I think it's interesting, the whole Joe Rogan Spotify thing and how that caters to the industry, or all this, what essentially just the choices Spotify is making. I think it's interesting all the technology being built for podcasting. So I won't go on and on about it. But I think at the end of the day, when you're thinking about starting a podcast, and I genuinely think Buzzsprout is an amazing solution in launching a show, especially when you're new because Buzzsprout has all the marketing vehicles and education to be able to support you in that training. It's so hard. But when you're thinking about it, don't think about launching a podcast think think about it in the sense of how is this going to enhance, like, the world I've architected like my my customer, my customer base, my community, like don't think about how many listens that I get, think about how can I utilize this for my existing community for you know, and then how can I maybe repurpose an episode into multiple things to empower others? Like, don't think about it in such like a selfish way of like, like, why am I not getting more? Why am I not getting more like I need I need I want I want instead think of it like, how can I optimize this to champion listeners and to champion my existing community? And so yeah, don't get it up. And let me just get in podcasting because everybody is get caught up in how can I really serve others get caught up in that? I did on my rant? Yeah,
• 7:39
  Alban: well, one of the themes that I saw that keeps coming up for you, his community. Yeah.
• 7:41
  Alban: And I think maybe can we kind of pull that thread through your journey? Can you just give kind of a brief history of like, what you do now, but kind of where you've come from, and your, your journey as a podcaster, but also as an entrepreneur? Yeah.
• 7:58
  Espree: So this is actually perfect. So in 2012, I created a we are a tech video series, spotlighting Los Angeles tech companies and talent. And unfortunately, my partner at the time, didn't have the same work ethic that I had. So we shot 12 episodes, and then none of them were edited. And it broke my heart. So when I discovered podcasting, I'm like, I never have to go through that, again, I'm going to teach myself and I'm just never going to rely on an editor. I have editors now.
• 8:27
  Espree: But you know, at that time, I just, I never wanted to like, count. I mean, when I'm talking about video content, I'm not talking about like something quick with an iPhone, we had three camera shoots, I built the first action sports, social network. So I had a lot of experience with video production. And I'm not talking about something quick and upload, I'm talking about like a really well produced segment. My point in saying that is you have to be a very skilled video editor to know how to do that. I can't just like pick that up in a few hours, you know. So it was a much lower lift to learn audio only to learn this story story, meaning because it's just easier. It's easier for editing, it's easier to understand. I'm not saying I'm not a sound engineer, there's a lot that could be done. That's way beyond my competency. But anyone could teach themself relatively easily how to edit and how to produce a podcast. It takes practice in the beginning. One hour of recording would take me 40 minutes to edit. So like, I mean, sorry, 40 hours to edit.
• 9:35
  Espree: Like one hour of recording with 40 hours. Yeah. And I talked to Alex Bloomberg about this, the host the startup podcast and founder of gimlet media, and he said it's really normal. He said it took him a really long time in the beginning to it's all about practice, but I cared that much, you know. So I started podcasting and I created the weirdly take videos is in order.
• 9:59
  Espree: And at this time video was not a podcast, like only audio was like podcasting. So I, I wanted to highlight the LA tech community, I wanted to spotlight like all all the amazing talent, so I wanted to use my video production skills from my action sports days and utilize them to help champion the community in Los Angeles. So then, as I shared, I pivoted to audio only podcasting. Continue doing that we're like tech podcast. Oh, and it was really cool. Within a month, we were like, top of apple. So you know, however, everyone's like, How many? How many episodes? Should I bank?
• 10:40
  Espree: When I first get started? I'm like, I don't know, I had one episode, and I uploaded it, you know, like, just, like, just do the thing like, stop, like, there's no perfect way. So in 2015, there were a lot of women in tech groups that were popping up. I'm like, Oh, I'm, that's me, like I, you know, built an action sports company intended to die. And so I go to these women tech groups. And unfortunately, all I heard was everything that is against us, like every, like all the and I had no idea because I don't know, I just kind of like lived in this bubble of optimism, where I'm like, I want to start an action sports company, I wanna start a social network, I want to build the first social network. And I just, like went after I was just, I just went after life, you know? So discovering that like, like women, like, here's one women aren't able to raise money as frequently as men, right? It's statistics. Well, when in my fundraising journey, I barely knew what what investment was, I just read a news article on YouTube getting a getting acquired by Google, and that they were funded by these people called Sequoia. So I just flew to San Francisco without a meeting or knowing anything to meet with Sequoia, like, you know, it's like, But imagine if in my head, I was like, oh, they're not gonna want to meet with me. Because statistically, like, I'm not, you know, I'm not it. And so I wanted to create a positive piece of content to share examples of what's possible for women in tech globally. And I now interview I've been to over 100 countries now, interviewing women in tech, and from intern level to like, multiple exits on her journey and how she got to where she is today.
• 12:29
  Alban: I know that you've actually described the women in tech podcast is you want people to be able to hear these stories, and then go, if she can do it, so can I and it's like, you're trying to empower people from those episodes. He talks about like, what are we trying?
• 12:44
  Alban: What stories are you pulling out? And what do you want your audience to leave with?
• 12:49
  Espree: So for we are la tack, I want it. It's like a discovery resource to know what's going on in Los Angeles, who to talk to where to go, what to utilize for women in tech, it's for listeners to walk away feeling if she can do it. So can I like I just both we are la tech and women in tech and all the other shows I create. I'm creating the brag podcast right now, which is business women reaching all inspiring greatness. Like, it's just all about believing in oneself and being proud of your achievements. And like this is assuming that a lot of people are like, are not assuming and seeing that a lot of people are really humble. When I like to humble, like when I do the women in tech podcast, I can't tell you how many times a woman would have said something like and one did, and others have said similar things. After the interview was done. They'd say, Oh, yeah, I was just on Forbes last week. I'm like, why don't you mention it? I don't know.
• 13:46
  Espree: Like, I just didn't want to be too. So I wanted to create, I utilize podcasting to I guess, you know, challenge things that annoy me. So I wanted to create like a safe place for women just to proudly share their achievements without without reservation.
• 14:07
  Alban: So after hearing all these stories, where women didn't want to highlight some of their biggest achievement, that's what got you to say, Alright, I'm going to start this brag podcast.
• 14:17
  Espree: I just yeah, I think as a culture, we don't share our wins enough. And so I just wanted, I mean, really, I just want to show examples of sharing wins. It's just true that as a culture, we don't have as many egotistical people.
• 14:34
  Alban: What are the things that I've heard you talk about quite a few times is insecurity kind of this feeling of imposter syndrome? That people kind of feel at the beginning of anything? Yeah. What do you say to somebody who's thinking about starting a podcast or they're thinking about starting to get up on stage at clubhouse or maybe submit their first You know, there's first talk to speak at a conference. What do you say to that person?
• 15:00
  Espree: Well, I mean, I still get nervous every time I give a talk like it's, it's a, it's really energetically taxing, and I have yet to feel comfortable before giving a talk. So everybody has that no matter how seasoned you are. But what I would say is I, I'm not religious, but one time, I was listening to a pastor, and he was sharing how, like, the universe, you know, gives us gifts, and there for us to share with the world. So it's not up to us to like, decide not to share our gifts, like, like, that's just being selfish. And I thought that was a really interesting perspective. So instead of like, Oh, I'm nervous about what I will look like, or the it's not about you, it's about sharing your gifts that you were so lucky to be given.
• 15:50
  Alban: So think reframing it not as, hey, am I worthy of getting myself on stage and acting like I know everything? Instead, it's, well, I have been given the opportunity to learn this stuff. So it's kind of a obligation for me to go and give back.
• 16:07
  Espree: I don't know about obligation. That's another like, that's take that up with the universe.
• 16:17
  Alban: It's, it's a opportunity to share Well, yeah,
• 16:21
  Espree: yeah, I think that's a little more fair. But I choose to live a very purposeful life.
• 16:24
  Espree: And sometimes my life, actually, oftentimes My life is like, really difficult. I go through a lot of challenges in order to live a very purposeful life, but I just feel like a really strong commitment to, yeah, to just show up and serve, I can't explain it. It's like something inside my body where I just default to that. And, and, you know, it gets confusing with match. If you pay, I'm not one that pays a lot of attention to metrics, and I proactively do my best not to pay attention, but I'm human. So I'll have like my moments, you know. And I find whenever I have those moments, where I'm paying attention to metrics, those are the moments I'm not serving, I'm looking at the wrong thing. And so I think it's really important to like, in this digital age, we live in, everyone's on metric doubt, like they follow vetting on follower accounts. And this is like, No, just show up to serve show up to if one person shows up value, that's a human being value their life, you know, people aren't a user or an email address that they're human with their own problems. And if someone's posting hate online, they're probably hurting and lonely.
• 17:36
  Espree: Like, you know, there's just like, let's let's inspire compassion, unity, acknowledging others being seen feeling seen.
• 17:45
  Alban: One of the things I actually recently shared this on Twitter, it was a kind of like a cartoon. I think it's like, 115 people. And I'm like, this is what 115 people look like. And so if you see your download numbers are 115 people don't think wow, that's rough. It's nothing close to, I don't know, Mr. Beast video on YouTube with millions of views? Well, he took like, six years plus to get there. Right? Exactly. It, I've just like, think of the this photo, like this is what 115 people look like. And in podcasting, it can get isolating that we are kind of talking into a mic and really hoping there's somebody listening on the other end. And if you can reframe it not as this is the numbers and I've got to continually hit New number new levels instead think, Wow, I've got 115 people that continually show up and listen to what I have to say and are finding some value. It really changes your relationship with the podcast
• 18:49
  Espree: well that and that's why people I always suggest people start with their why and their purpose. The only reason you would care that you have 115 lessons and not something else is because you're potentially in it for the wrong reasons. You know like you think you thought it was like a fast payday or something. If you're going to start podcasting know your purpose and your why that you want to start podcasting.
• 19:15
  Alban: So what are some of the you know, some good why's for why people would start a podcast and maybe Are there any red flags if people say I'm sorry, a podcast because of this, you might go maybe don't
• 19:27
  Espree: I mean, get get rich quick schemes. Yeah, I just think I think it's like and also very ego driven. I want to be famous or something.
• 19:39
  Alban: What are some good reasons to start a podcast? What are some good wise?
• 19:43
  Espree: I mean, what I truly endorse and believe in is like unifying people and community and creating relationships and elevating and champion others.
• 19:51
  Espree: So I think a great a great reason to start a podcast is in order or like a mindful podcast in order to Community look in the day and age we live in and the amount of fears that we have now and all this stuff. We need more examples of love and unity and acceptance and kindness and, and maybe even like safely listening to other people's stories in private, maybe people, some people want to get educated, but they're afraid to ask the questions. So if you're asking the questions on their behalf, that's really helpful to to our, you know, global community at large. So I would love if more people utilize podcasting in order to elevate others, I never I never started podcasting to to be famous. I just really cared the weirdly type podcast I started because in building the first actions for social network, that was really hard that was like, that was that was really, really hard and isolating, it was a hard isolating journey and a lot of things. And it wasn't a thing to start a PA a start a start up at that time. I I, it wasn't the cool thing. There was no HBO show. So like, so I, I don't know, I just wanted, I wanted to utilize my skill set of video production to or I should say content production, to elevate people in Los Angeles. So maybe they haven't even like 1% easier than I did. And, and that was my why's I just really wanted to like lesson, even a tiny little bit of the entrepreneurial pain.
• 21:28
  Espree: And then the women in tech I shared earlier is you know, to so women believe in in themselves more I don't start a podcast thinking I want to be famous. Like, that's just I don't know, it's weird. I mean, maybe maybe that's judgy I'm sorry, like, maybe some people like that's their dream to be famous. It's not it is not my dream,
• 21:50
  Alban: I often think back how much the world has changed in at least my lifetime where like the internet would not have tagged it. I mean, I guess the internet existed, but nobody was on it when I was young. And now everybody is completely surrounded with the internet, we see like a lot of the positives and the negatives. But one of the things that I see is incredibly positive that podcasting is able to do is there's a lot of like teaching and learning and stories and insight that is kind of just locked up in a few people's heads. There's people who reach new levels in any, any business, any community, any creative endeavor. And it's really just a few lucky people who get to work with them. Maybe they get an accidental conversation. And they learn some of what these you know, whether it be an artist or an entrepreneur, what they've learned. And then podcasting has made it like totally acceptable to go and ask almost anybody and say, Hey, would you spend an hour sharing?
• 22:55
  Alban: Yeah, what's important to you?
• 22:58
  Alban: What are some of your top lessons? And then I will give it to anybody who wants it? And nobody has to ask permission or feel weird asking you for an hour of your time?
• 23:07
  Espree: Totally. Yeah. I mean, how many times have you been asked like, Hey, can I pick your brain? Or, like, let's grab coffee? Like, no, you may not pick my brain. And I spend more time with my mom. So I will not grab coffee. You know, like, so like a podcast is this amazing way that is a win win for both people involved. And it's not necessarily like an energetically depleting activity. It's like you're able to serve beyond just the two people there.
• 23:44
  Alban: What are the other things that I realized kind of shifting gears? Yeah. When I was researching this about you is you're always You're a very early adopter. I noticed right to you're getting it to podcast, he incredibly early, you are incredibly early to the LA tech scene. I mean, I think by the time that you were starting your business, and you're getting into that scene, it couldn't have been more than a handful of people.
• 24:14
  Espree: Also, I created the LA tech scene along with 20 other people. So there was no la text.
• 24:18
  Espree: Like I create, I had my sports company and we had an office in Santa Monica, there was no startup anything. And a bunch of us would get together at this guy's house, this investors house and we'd have barbecues.
• 24:35
  Espree: And it was about 20 of us. It happened all the time. And then eventually, those 20 people, including me included did so much community work that now LA is one of the top tech cities in the world, which is wild. It's not like we set out to do that.
• 24:49
  Espree: We just did
• 24:50
  Alban: it. I found this. You also were obviously really early to clubhouse. You. It was just like over and over. You had a website you were building Websites before, like, almost any of these website builders are out there. So I'm sure you were just like, Hey encoding things with HTML and CSS like hp. An idea of what this is in your like, what is it about you or your personality that kind of spots these things gets very into them early on?
• 25:18
  Espree: Yeah, first of all, I think it's luck. Like I was also one of the early people on YouTube and on Twitter and like, it's, it's super luck. my newest one that I think a lot of people are gonna adopt a stereo, but I don't know, I don't like necessarily make predictions.
• 25:32
  Espree: What is stereo? Really?
• 25:37
  Alban: I have no idea. It's stereo
• 25:38
  Espree: job. Okay, see crazy, so cool. So stereo is like this amazing, simplified podcasting app where you could record like, someone could record their podcast on stereo, and then they could upload it to a buzz Buzzsprout RSS feed as their podcast. But what's cool, it's like live podcasting. Sort of, but you're not intruded by the listener. So you're doing your podcast, they, You both look like cartoon characters. And you guys are having a conversation.
• 26:06
  Espree: So it's an audio social network that connects you with random people in the world. And you can just have conversations.
• 26:14
  Espree: However, you could also plan to have a podcast episode like you and I can schedule jumping on together. And then they make it really easy to export your audio really easy to have like little video clips, like of the segment, it's recorded, it is on stereo recorded, but you could export the audio and upload it to your podcast, distribution company and be on all the other, you know, players as well. So I just think it's, I just think it's really, really cool. And the reason I think, I think it's so easy to pick up, like there's nothing intimidating, like a mic, the audio quality strangely, like, great. And so because the people aren't using mics and stuff like that, you know, so I think, um, and now, they're booking a lot of influencers, like YouTube influencers, to be utilizing it, and these tremendous YouTube influencers, they only have like 20 people listening to their live thing, but they're doing it. So just knowing that you have these multi million YouTube influencers utilizing stereo, and liking it, and staying committed, even though there's only 20 stereo listeners, you know, and watching how it's like been growing over, I don't know, I also randomly created Tick Tock while going for like, and I posted my stereo, and I went viral, I probably sent 40,000 people to stereo. Like, well, yeah, I don't know if I described it well, but um, but to your question of being.
• 27:50
  Alban: So it sounds like it's a clubhouse podcast, combination, where you're getting, you're doing an audio conversation, but now you're able to save it, upload it as a podcast, and just one on one. And then you've got this. Oh, no, yeah.
• 28:03
  Espree: So it's just you and I like this. We should do a stereo later, like this. Actually, I'd like to do a stereo with you later. So how I plan to use stereo is I'd like to have like, casual conversations with people in my podcast network, just about podcasting. But super casual. That's the cool thing about Siri like, I could be doing the dishes or whatever.
• 28:27
  Espree: But the conversations being recorded, and there's something that's so cool, it's not edited or anything. So there's something so cool. That's organic about it. That I don't know, like, I've been listening to airac, the YouTuber airac and his managers, stereo episodes learning so much. I did they send you one. I think I sent it.
• 28:45
  Espree: I may have sent it to you.
• 28:48
  Alban: I don't think so. But if I would love to hear it. So if you I feel
• 28:52
  Espree: like I did send it to you and Twitter dm all the social platforms. I'm pretty sure but I won't.
• 28:58
  Alban: I will have to scroll back and find it. So stereo app is the new thing. I feel like you do have a good sense for what what's coming next. So if anyone's watching this, maybe a couple weeks from now you're gonna maybe you'll know you're in the future. So you will know.
• 29:12
  Alban: The next big thing,
• 29:16
  Espree: but yeah, I don't so I'm not like I as a high schooler, I actually did read books about trend spotting. I was a high school journalist and but I've never considered myself a trend spotter. I just realized in retrospect, like wow, I really was on these. I was on the future before I knew it was gonna be the future. Um, so it's a it's been weird. It's been like super weird. And I think I get it from my father, like he was an early adopter. So it's probably just like in my blood to be an early adopter as well.
• 29:51
  Espree: But um, but I definitely start to get like, I wouldn't say bored just like kind of over it when something's popped. Killer I'm like, and now let me find something more interesting. But it's not really because of the popularity, it's because the intimacy is lost. And I really, let's why I enjoy producing events that are like eight people, rather than a few 100 P, I'm very good at producing an event for a few 100 people, but like, what it really like, makes me Glee is is like eight people just seeing like a dinner party simulated vibe, you know,
• 30:28
  Alban: yeah. so that people can connect and actually have conversations and kind of build the community feel that you're looking
• 30:33
  Espree: right. So clubhouse, Twitter, like YouTube, like for YouTube, we'd go to VidCon. And it was just like a handful of us. And I knew all of them, you know, like, then Twitter, we would do tweet ups. And it was so cool. And then, you know, clubhouses, it's like, and then they get big and millions. And then it's like, and then it's like, you don't really see your same friends anymore. And the intimacy is gone.
• 31:00
  Alban: I love that way of thinking about it is that we're really just eating with all these new tools, that it's just trying to find a new way to reconnect with the people that we, you know, want to be around and especially right now is, you know, COVID is you still pandemic in the states that we're all a little bit more separated, we'd like to be in some of these towns are kind of helping us get back together.
• 31:22
  Alban: Totally. So for people thinking about podcasting right now, what would you What would you tell them? They you've, we've talked about, you know, you've kind of got to just get started, we've talked a little bit about, there's more opportunity than you think, what are some of the other basics that you would want to share with people? What things have you learned over eight years of podcasting? What things have you learn things you think people should know?
• 31:50
  Espree: First of all, we were talking about this a little bit like before the interview, I do think that there's something irreplaceable to podcast in person, I definitely consider myself an in person show. So as soon as it feels comfortable to be back in person, again, without a doubt, I will race off of remote podcasting. Back to in person. I'll give you one example from my weirdly tech podcast, I'd scheduled two interviews back to back knowing that they could do business together. So when they're crossing paths, there's like a little like, relationship making happening. And then it increases the value of my podcast world.
• 32:33
  Espree: Overall, right? That can't happen remotely. I try sometimes I have a conference line. And I'll have one person call in back to back with the other person. And I'm like, and I'll have them meet one another. Like I do that quite often. But it's, it's also not the same. And I never know if someone's gonna think like, Oh, my gosh, what did I get myself into?
• 33:00
  Alban: Do you? Yeah. Do you feel like that, that the interviews kind of go better when you're in person? Are there any tips that people can use when they're actually recording remotely to actually get one of that vibe,
• 33:14
  Espree: there's no chance that the audio quality would ever even come close to in person, like and I miss the in person audio quality? I think you better build rapport for longer term relationships. I mean, there's just so much there's like an energy and an enjoyment and a fun, a lot of YouTubers are still podcasting in person.
• 33:38
  Espree: Which, you know, they have to go through the whole thing Joe Rogan's still podcasting in person, he has to, you know, do the whole COVID test, and there's all these things that you have to go through, and they're expensive, and it's hard. And even with that, it's still scary, you don't know, you know. But that's how important in person is these people are going through all these humps.
• 34:02
  Espree: Now, just to say podcasting in person, it's just podcasting is not a zoom call.
• 34:10
  Alban: There's definitely I have felt quite a bit of zoom fatigue myself after about 13 months of spending all this time staring at a camera, and not even often being able to look at the person's face. So totally, I totally appreciate that. And
• 34:27
  Espree: I can't wait to like look back at this period of life rather than, like be living through the
• 34:34
  Alban: it 2026 like, my daughter's gonna walk up and like find a mask and she's gonna be like, what are these frogs?
• 34:41
  Alban: And I'll be like, Oh, don't you remember, like, when you were five, like there was a, there was a pandemic. We had to wear masks all the time. And she's like, Oh, yeah, I kind of remember. We're, like, you know, someday we will be there looking back on this and fighting basketball around our house guiley.
• 34:57
  Espree: I hope we get to look back sooner than later. But we'll table that very cute that you have a five year old. By the way, I can't imagine having a five year old like during this time. Sure it's taking your dad's skills to a new level.
• 35:11
  Alban: What are the other things that I see a lot of podcasters it's really difficult is there's two groups that were afraid of when we start podcasting, maybe three, but one is just friends and family, like the people who we just are still connected to on Facebook. I put stuff out and I cringe thinking, some buddy I knew in college is going to see it and think what is Alvin think he's all about, like putting himself up on YouTube, he looks like a dork. You know that they knew me. And they will think ill of me. And then you've just got people who are mean online who are gonna leave me and reviews no matter what. And then you've kind of got yourself that, you know, often we're our own worst critics kind of looking at critiquing everything we do, like, what tips and strategies can people implement to get over each of those hurdles?
• 36:08
  Espree: I have a friend who's a celebrity and I asked him the same question because it's, it's overwhelming. The. So my friend is like, a classically, like incredibly looking person, you know, like, superhero kind of thing. And he says online, he gets things that he's like, fat and ugly, and you know, so even someone who's like textbook, like, what they're supposed to look like to be attractive, gets all this hate. He and he was saying, look, you can't, you can't control the hate, I would suggest having someone look over the comments instead of you not not getting caught up in that kind of thing. Um, understand that people are lonely. So they're communicating something because they're lonely. Um, it's really just about really doing your best to not pay attention to the wrong area and really stay confident and grounded in yourself and your own self identity in your own self worth and self value and do if you're going to be even moderately in the spotlight do an immense amount of work to build up that resilience. Arlen Hamilton says he doesn't she doesn't want to put the haters out of a job to everyone needs a job.
• 37:27
  Espree: It's tough, you know, and I was just watching something yesterday, this guy posted something horrific. to Facebook, I saw it on the news. And then the local news, like, went to go address, you know, the person about this horrific post.
• 37:43
  Espree: They're like, Oh, no, I didn't mean it wasn't what I would like, I didn't mean that.
• 37:47
  Espree: They're like, okay, there's no other way to take what you wrote. So, people are just keyboard warriors, you know, and it sucks. I think it totally sucks. It completely makes me want to live in a forest away from everything. Like I'm not down. I'm not down with it. I'm scared of it myself. Which is why I would have conversations like that with my friends. Like, I just like, yeah, it just sucks. And you have to build as much self resilience, maybe start therapy now.
• 38:19
  Alban: Pre emptive therapy?
• 38:19
  Alban: Yeah, the trolls come out totally. It helps to remember a lot of these people what their writing is much more reflective of their internal state than of what we've done. You put up a video and somebody you know, has some I got you get weird comments on your YouTube videos every time we put them up. And, you know, like, if you go look at that person's comments, like most of them are very negative.
• 38:46
  Alban: And it's probably because they're coming from they're struggling. And you know, their way of, you know, kind of venting that ends up somehow on your YouTube video. And if you're creating media to interact and encourage 1000s 10s of 1000s of people every episode, well, then some percent of that audience is going to dislike you. Maybe for somebody has nothing to do with you. They were just having a rough day.
• 39:17
  Alban: And he became the target.
• 39:19
  Espree: And check out my girlfriend, Allie spagnola she has a YouTube channel and she does this awesome video tracking down one of her haters to find out who her hater actually is.
• 39:29
  Espree: This person has been hating on her consistently for years. So she decided like, I'm going to figure out like, who this person is and why they're obsessed with like sending me negative comments. And it's quite interesting. How Yeah, it's quite I mean, I'll just I'll jump to the end I it's a spoiler alert. But But definitely watch it to get the full context of the story but turns out to be like a father with like a young child like it's like bizarre that This person Oh, that's I think religious you know, things like that. Like, it's bizarre that someone would be so consistently sending her this very strange, same Hey, comment, by the way over and over and over again.
• 40:13
  Alban: There's a really good YouTube podcast that's kind of similar now I'm gonna totally forget who the author was, as a woman who's writing for maybe, might have been for Jessica bell. It was for like a, a pretty popular blog that now I don't think is around anymore.
• 40:28
  Alban: But she's writing and CAD kind of one guy who always showed up.
• 40:32
  Alban: Yeah. And even when her father passed, he made a fake out that was her father. No, is commenting on things. Yeah, it was. That's awful. I think she talked about it on a blog. And he realized, Oh, my gosh, I and my own weird ignorance have been venting out to someone who wasn't real in my mind, just add a blog, you know, I was just yelling at this blog. And I was doing things that were mean, and but to me, were funny. And then he realized this is a woman. And she's been struggling with the stuff I've been saying for years. And they end up like interviewing, she interviews him. And they reconcile, after he reached out said, Hey, I'm allowing you to share my name and what I've done, and I'm not anonymous anymore, and I really want to apologize. Is this incredible? And now I've totally forgotten who it is. So I will have to link it in the I would love for you. Yeah, it was so powerful to hear. Because we often like we imagine everyone is as evil as their worst moments. And then to see people kind of come together. And there's like, there's so much more to people than just the worst thing they ever said. Or, you know, it was that we will have to like that for everybody.
• 41:54
  Espree: I totally why Yeah, I please, I want to hear that. But do you see how like we're talking about at the beginning, utilize podcasting to elevate others, like that is a great story being shared, that's not about someone becoming famous.
• 42:08
  Espree: That's about showing people what's possible and, and helping empower, compassion and understanding and he like, so great. So we're not talking about it. Because we want her to be more famous. We're talking about the impact it's had,
• 42:22
  Alban: right. And podcasts because they're long form media.
• 42:28
  Alban: podcasts, in general, you can get people to listen to podcasts for 40 minutes. And that's not all that surprising. If you're getting four and a half minutes of a YouTube view. That's really good. And so people spend so much more time invested in a podcast episode, a ad when you have that length of engagement, I think humanity really starts to shine through when you hear someone's voice for a long period of time. You hear more of what they think we can only be fake for so long. And then eventually people start seeing who we really are. And once all that search showing through, I think it's a lot more difficult to just fire off like a you know, just a mean comment out someone's appearance or something. Totally, totally. So spree thank you so much for doing this interview. I've really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed hearing your perspective. And hopefully everybody who's watching this is enjoying it as well. If people want to learn more about you follow you listen to the podcasts, where should they go?
• 43:27
  Espree: At first of all, Does everybody know that they should be following you on Twitter?
• 43:29
  Espree: Like your your tweets? Or like Do people know that can you please tell them about your epicness on Twitter and how you massively report on things and in the most complete detail,
• 43:42
  Alban: Twitter's like the new thing that I've tried to do so if anybody wants to come over and you know, ask any questions or wants any help with podcasting, please come on over to my Twitter profile. I'd love to share what I've learned about podcasting and help you on your journey to maybe
• 43:56
  Espree: you need to be on the podcast. Maybe you need to be on the right like no I'm telling you this Twitter no this this episode, though, is about helping others and your Twitter's legitimately, rarely helpful. Like it's like it's a rare thing to have high value tweets so that your tweets are consistently like these research reports. You're like in case you missed the apple, you know going live let me just report it for you. I'm like what Thank you like because I did have to do multiple things that day anyway to to reach me speaking of Twitter, or any social media, its ad is free devorah or email me is spree@hay.com. So that's ESP ar e@hgy.com and I feel like my socials will probably be linked in the in the thing and I put in the show notes. I post social recaps on my Instagram and my Twitter of like when I do my podcasters class club and stuff. So if you're looking for kind of tips and tricks in the podcasting world, my social media is where it's at.
• 45:00
  Alban: We will put links to all of it in the show notes and in the YouTube description can follow you over there. Awesome.
• 45:06
  Alban: Well thank you so much for joining us and we really appreciate it and until next time, everybody, God podcasting