Latest / Identity at the Center / #349 - Identity, AI, and the Future with Henrique Teixeira

Transcript

#349 - Identity, AI, and the Future with Henrique Teixeira · Identity at the Center

• 0:00
  I see this job almost like stand up comedy in a sense, right?
• 0:02
  So you build a set, you'll build a set of a show, right?
• 0:07
  It's an hour duration. It could be 45 minutes or 30
• 0:10
  minutes. And so the show today is more
• 0:13
  human than human. It may be good for six months or
• 0:16
  eight months and then you need another set and then another
• 0:19
  set. That's that's how I've been.
• 0:22
  I've been trying to find what's the, the perfect balance, but I
• 0:26
  think 2A year. So starting perhaps in the
• 0:31
  middle of 2024, it was all about trends.
• 0:35
  The, the, the trends in identity security for 2025 and then more
• 0:42
  human to human machine identities.
• 0:43
  I'll, I'll perhaps thinking, what I'm thinking now is once
• 0:48
  this series of conferences and with with Identiverse, then we
• 0:54
  switch back to identity security trends for 2026, right.
• 0:59
  So I think that's that's the groove I'm trying to get into.
• 1:04
  Have you started to come up with predictions for those the 2026
• 1:08
  feature predictions? Yes.
• 1:10
  And the, the process I'm, I'm following right now is through
• 1:16
  voting and, and but also research on, on topics that are
• 1:22
  trends, right. And I think there are the
• 1:23
  obvious ones around what I call post cloud trends.
• 1:29
  I didn't make up post cloud, but I think that's where we are,
• 1:32
  right. So cloud is 25 years old, what's
• 1:35
  what, what we are leaving today is already post cloud.
• 1:38
  So I think a lot of the trends will come with post cloud and I
• 1:42
  gentek AI of course. This is identity at the center
• 1:52
  if it has anything to do with IAM.
• 1:55
  This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
• 2:02
  Steadman. Welcome to the Identity at the
• 2:10
  Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim.
• 2:11
  Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
• 2:14
  Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing great, you know.
• 2:17
  Tell me if I'm doing too much, you know, talking my own book or
• 2:22
  pandering or whatever you want to call it.
• 2:24
  But I really want to give a shout out to our sponsors and
• 2:29
  the people who listen to our sponsored episodes because
• 2:33
  that's what makes a lot of this happen.
• 2:35
  Like I, I feel like you're sending me new equipment all the
• 2:38
  time, better microphones and, you know, all kind of better
• 2:42
  cameras so that we can put out a better product.
• 2:46
  And then obviously, I think by the time this airs, we've
• 2:50
  already gone to EIC, but that's something that only could have
• 2:53
  happened if we were able to fund it by doing the sponsored
• 2:56
  episodes. So I just wanted to, to thank
• 2:59
  our sponsors and also shout out to people who are checking out
• 3:04
  those episodes. If if you feel good about it or
• 3:08
  if this works for you, reach out to them, let them know that you
• 3:12
  heard them on the on the podcast.
• 3:15
  And I think it goes an extra distance.
• 3:17
  And obviously the US based conferences as well.
• 3:21
  There's costs behind those. We have kind of a sponsor in the
• 3:25
  background, which is our day-to-day employer, but let's
• 3:28
  go there and pretty much work on the podcast the whole time.
• 3:31
  So RSM shout out to them as well.
• 3:35
  Yeah, it's super cool. So definitely our first time and
• 3:38
  by the time people listen to this, we will have been through
• 3:41
  our first Berlin exterior experience, our first, I don't
• 3:46
  know, other experiences in Europe, etcetera.
• 3:48
  They're probably at this point. And then obviously the EIC
• 3:50
  conference in Cooper, your coal. So yeah, it's super cool.
• 3:52
  So yeah, I don't think that was too shameless.
• 3:55
  You know, thanks to everybody who listens and supports and all
• 3:58
  that good stuff. And you got, if you got
• 4:00
  marketing money burning a whole pocket, come talk to us.
• 4:03
  We'll be happy to get your message out.
• 4:06
  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, I mean, as
• 4:09
  long as obviously it has to fit in.
• 4:13
  You know, I've always felt this way, Jeff.
• 4:15
  First off, the sponsored episodes are all companies
• 4:19
  somewhere in the identity space. So they want to get their word
• 4:22
  out to the identity practitioners of the world.
• 4:25
  But the other big advice or the the thing that happens is almost
• 4:30
  every one of our sponsors says, well, how do we do this?
• 4:34
  Like what, What makes a good episode?
• 4:36
  And what we always say is like, make it just like all the other
• 4:40
  episodes. Like come on here, educate,
• 4:43
  entertain, and people will listen.
• 4:47
  And what I found is that we get fantastic statistics for those
• 4:51
  episodes. So I don't feel like they're any
• 4:54
  worse. In fact, I think in some ways
• 4:56
  they're better than our our standard episodes.
• 5:00
  I think they're all fantastic. Everyone, every single episode
• 5:02
  is one of my babies, so yeah. And we have a guest like we have
• 5:06
  today. I mean, it's, it's hard to match
• 5:08
  that, right? Yeah, sometimes we'll make
• 5:10
  exceptions for vendors to come out and talk.
• 5:12
  He is no normal human being, so why don't we get to him in a
• 5:16
  second? I ideniverse is coming up.
• 5:19
  I know you and I are very excited about that.
• 5:21
  We will be debuting for the second time, I guess, but with
• 5:24
  her with its new name, the Identisquabble Game show, which
• 5:29
  will be kicking off the Expo hall kind of opening night
• 5:32
  activities or whatever that may be.
• 5:34
  So it's going to be me acting as the the host of the game show,
• 5:38
  which is very similar to a Family Feud style game.
• 5:42
  But we obviously can't use that name when we get sued.
• 5:44
  So Identisquabble and Jamie are going to be a team captain and.
• 5:48
  I think we've got. I will not be Richard Dawson.
• 5:52
  I will not be inappropriately kissing or touching any other
• 5:55
  buddy on on the stage. I will be me.
• 5:58
  That's all I can do. But we have Heather Flanagan, I
• 6:01
  believe is going to be our other team captain for ID Pro and you
• 6:05
  guys are in the process of picking your your teammates and
• 6:08
  seeing who wants to be part of that and so forth.
• 6:10
  But yeah, it's been pretty exciting.
• 6:12
  So we hope to see a lot of people there and kind of support
• 6:15
  the show. And this idea we've had, we
• 6:16
  kicked it off at Authenticate last year and we had such a good
• 6:19
  time saying, all right, we got to do this again and, and, you
• 6:21
  know, continue to iterate and stuff on that.
• 6:23
  So we help see people in Identiverse.
• 6:25
  It's June 3rd to the 6th. It's in Las Vegas.
• 6:28
  And if you use the code IDV 25-I D AC25, that gets you 25% off.
• 6:33
  So it'll be in our show notes, it'll be on our on our website,
• 6:36
  idcpodcast.com. We hope to see a lot of people
• 6:38
  there. And I know, Jim, you'll have
• 6:39
  stickers, so we'll be able to hand those out as well.
• 6:42
  Yeah, we'll be on the extra floor a lot.
• 6:43
  I mean, as much as we can. We're going to be recording a
• 6:46
  few episodes on the extra floor while there's a little buzz
• 6:51
  around. I mean, it's going to be some
• 6:52
  background noise. Hopefully not too much, but
• 6:55
  people can drop by, watch all the stickers there and we'd love
• 6:59
  I. I know I can speak for myself.
• 7:02
  I would love to meet as many listeners as possible.
• 7:05
  I think I can speak for you as on that front too.
• 7:08
  No, please do not approach me, and if you do, please do it in
• 7:11
  all you know deference. I expect rose petals or other
• 7:15
  pieces of things strewn about my path of.
• 7:18
  Course it's deep fake to follow. Deep fake to follow.
• 7:21
  No, it's super cool. It's very gratifying when
• 7:23
  someone comes, hey, listen to the show.
• 7:24
  That's it doesn't have to be anything fancy, but definitely
• 7:26
  kind of keeps keeps us motive to keep doing this.
• 7:28
  So it's super cool. Absolutely.
• 7:31
  All right, let's get to our guest because I want to spend
• 7:33
  the bulk of the time picking his giant brain about a whole bunch
• 7:36
  of different stuff. He is Henrique Teixeira.
• 7:38
  He is the senior vice president of strategy with Sabian.
• 7:41
  This is his third time on the show.
• 7:43
  We passed, talked to him in December.
• 7:45
  And so welcome back, Henrique. All right, All right.
• 7:50
  Hello, Jeff. Hi, Jim.
• 7:51
  It's a pleasure to be back here. Wow.
• 7:55
  You keep keep inviting me and for me it's an honor.
• 7:57
  You guys are class acts, so thank you.
• 8:00
  Well, we appreciate that and it's, you know, we, we have a
• 8:02
  lot of fun with our conversations.
• 8:03
  And I feel like you've, you've got this unique kind of
• 8:06
  background, right, having been with Gartner for a while.
• 8:08
  And so the analyst side and, and now you are on the product side
• 8:12
  as we'll kind of call it. But before we get into sort of,
• 8:15
  you know, whatever that transition looks like, I guess
• 8:18
  any news like what's been up since I think December, it's
• 8:20
  been maybe four or five months since we, we last chatted with
• 8:22
  you. Any anything you want to talk
• 8:23
  about? I think we're all getting ready
• 8:25
  for Identiverse, right? Exciting for that too.
• 8:29
  By the time this thing airs up, we'll be coming back from from
• 8:33
  Berlin, my first time there too. So I, I hope we, we bumped each
• 8:38
  other there. And like I said, it's, it's an
• 8:42
  honor. I I don't know why you guys keep
• 8:44
  me inviting me back to this show, but for me, and I think I
• 8:49
  told you this before, you guys are references and and what you
• 8:53
  do and the way you treat your guests.
• 8:56
  I think why can't, why could I refuse?
• 9:00
  Right. So for me, it's an honor to be
• 9:02
  here. Yeah.
• 9:03
  As I have this background with Garner now experiencing this new
• 9:08
  phase in my life, right. It's being exactly a year at
• 9:14
  Sabient running strategy and his leadership role within Sabient.
• 9:20
  It's, it's, it's being pretty exciting and we could talk about
• 9:27
  that. I I could share what what it has
• 9:30
  been what the world. Let's get into that.
• 9:35
  I'm pausing because my digital assistant and I put everything
• 9:40
  on, I promise. I was it.
• 9:41
  Siri was it? Podcast Siri Siri was Oh my God,
• 9:45
  I just trying to transcribe everything I say.
• 9:47
  Hey guys, taking over. AIAI is one of the topics.
• 9:50
  I hope we can talk more about that too.
• 9:51
  But again, guys welcome. And, and it's, it's very nice to
• 9:55
  be back. And as you can see, I'm wearing
• 9:58
  McLaren collars today. As you guys know, I'm a, I'm an
• 10:03
  analogy type of guy and Formula One.
• 10:06
  I think there's a lot of parallels we can trace with
• 10:10
  career leadership lessons about that too.
• 10:15
  So another tidbit about Enrique, perhaps even though I'm a big
• 10:19
  Formula One nut, I, I I love Formula One for different
• 10:22
  reasons, but glad to talk about that too.
• 10:25
  Well, you're definitely kitted out, that's for sure.
• 10:27
  And I will tell you right now, I know I, I don't think there's a
• 10:29
  number less than 0 negative information about Formula One,
• 10:32
  so you can educate me. But let's, yeah, let's start
• 10:35
  there. Let's say, OK, you know, let's
• 10:37
  talk about that transition. You've been with Sabian now for
• 10:39
  a year. So what's it like going to, you
• 10:42
  know, the dark side and vendor and products versus, you know,
• 10:46
  the analyst side of things? I, I, I can tell you this is
• 10:50
  everything I expected. I think I, and then that's what
• 10:55
  I, I suggest to everybody who is considering a, a drastic career
• 10:58
  change, because this was right after almost six years at
• 11:02
  Gardner, going back to a, a vendor, especially in a, in a
• 11:06
  leadership position, I had to do my homework and, and research a
• 11:11
  lot about the company, but also what options were available and
• 11:17
  the team, right? And the technology and, and
• 11:19
  what's the impact of that? And I, I wrote a lot about that
• 11:22
  when I, I made the decision, which was around the problem,
• 11:27
  right, to be in love with a problem before the solution,
• 11:33
  which I think it's a, it's a very common mistake, right?
• 11:35
  We get enamorated with, oh, this technology is the best or the
• 11:39
  other technology is the best. I think what, what brought me to
• 11:43
  this journey is that the problem, it followed me for 25
• 11:48
  years. Identity management.
• 11:49
  It's not a, a done deal. It's not a salt thing.
• 11:52
  So #1 everything I expected, right?
• 11:56
  And I think not a lot of surprises which were negative.
• 12:00
  I, I'll say the most of the surprises was, Hey, this is
• 12:05
  better than I thought in, in some areas I met a lot of
• 12:08
  different people too, which is interesting.
• 12:10
  If, if the audience here or people who change jobs and I, of
• 12:16
  course, you guys know me on LinkedIn and, and how active I'm
• 12:20
  there. You keep seeing which of the top
• 12:22
  connections that keep interacting with you.
• 12:25
  And, and then you, you keep shifting the audience as you,
• 12:30
  you, you go through career changes.
• 12:32
  So I, I noticed that too, that was a big fear I had actually,
• 12:35
  Jeff, when when this change was made.
• 12:39
  Is that #1 are my former analyst colleagues that start to hate me
• 12:47
  or ostracize me right and and and ignore me or I don't know
• 12:51
  right any negative feelings towards me but also.
• 12:56
  That's a fair a point to look at though, right?
• 12:58
  Because I think from the analyst side of things you need to be
• 13:01
  vendor neutral, right? And try to keep influences away
• 13:04
  from potentially tainting that better neutral.
• 13:07
  So I think that's exactly it. Feels legitimate, yeah.
• 13:10
  Exactly So that was a fear, but also how about my friends in the
• 13:14
  industry, right? I mean, the other vendors,
• 13:16
  right? My my friends at Cell point or
• 13:18
  Cyber Ark or Octa, right. So what would they think?
• 13:21
  And I think we as humans, we keep spinning the wheels about
• 13:26
  what other people would think about us.
• 13:28
  And I think, of course, that crossed my mind and, and to this
• 13:31
  day, but what I can tell you is this, and after many Gardner
• 13:36
  conferences that I've been after, I switched, I think
• 13:40
  friendships, at least the ones we we go through and, and we can
• 13:45
  tell that they they last longer than this.
• 13:49
  And, and I think the way I treated my friends and
• 13:52
  colleagues in in other companies too.
• 13:55
  And people say, well, so you hate this vendor now you're
• 13:58
  going to fight them, Say no, hey, no, I, I, I, I was friends
• 14:02
  with that person before I, I joined this other vendor.
• 14:06
  So I can attest, Jeff, that those strong relationships and,
• 14:13
  and, and friendships, they remain right.
• 14:15
  The respect is there, the mutual admiration as well.
• 14:19
  So, but of course, things that, that cross my mind, the back of
• 14:24
  my mind. And I think if you're honest
• 14:28
  with yourself and, and transparent, right?
• 14:31
  And, and, and the reasons I was choosing to switch jobs, I think
• 14:37
  we're very transparent as well, right?
• 14:39
  And I wanted to be closer to something that can be not
• 14:45
  solving the problem, but closer to solve the problem, right?
• 14:48
  And, and a life of analysis is amazing in guiding or advising.
• 14:54
  I think this is closer like you guys at your day jobs, right?
• 14:57
  So like hands on type of thing. I think this is as good as it
• 15:01
  gets. Another thing is I learned a
• 15:04
  lot, right? I'm, I'm, I'm constantly
• 15:07
  learning new things. And that's one of the reasons I,
• 15:09
  I chose this position is like stepping around what identity is
• 15:14
  in a, in a strategy context. What is strategy?
• 15:18
  It's a very abstract thing and that excites me too.
• 15:22
  A lot of thinking around that. A lot of processes building, so
• 15:26
  building processes in the organization.
• 15:28
  So as big as this company I joined saving is, there's a lot
• 15:33
  to be done, which is pretty cool, I think, right?
• 15:36
  So to shape processes and, and, and create metrics and, and
• 15:40
  measure improvement of those metrics.
• 15:42
  So this is the kind of opportunity that I think was
• 15:45
  unique for me in this stage of my career.
• 15:47
  So worst case, right? So if, if everything fails, at
• 15:52
  least I'll, I'll, I'll have learned a lot how we take an, an
• 15:55
  organization the size of savings and, and take it through IPO,
• 15:59
  which is my, my big mission within this company is OK.
• 16:03
  And in a few years we got to get to the stage where we're IPO
• 16:06
  ready, right? So at worst case, I, I want to
• 16:10
  learn a lot about that because it sounds very interesting.
• 16:13
  It sounds something that I've never done before before, right.
• 16:16
  So full transparency, I've never gone through IPLSI.
• 16:19
  I've never been in a company the size of this company today,
• 16:23
  which is kind of mind blowing as well for me.
• 16:26
  But that could be refreshing. I think you bring a fresh set of
• 16:29
  eyes to a problem and you kind of maybe bring a maybe a lean
• 16:33
  start up mentality, right? We hear all this time about
• 16:35
  like, oh, it's time to change your thinking etcetera.
• 16:38
  I want to try and get real here a little bit.
• 16:39
  Obviously, I don't want you to get in trouble with Sabian and I
• 16:42
  don't want to turn this into commercial for Sabian.
• 16:43
  But let's talk about more that personal journey.
• 16:46
  Like do you have, are there regrets?
• 16:49
  Are there, you know, challenges that you didn't anticipate?
• 16:53
  And it's like, oh, I need to kind of figure this out.
• 16:55
  And obviously you're still there.
• 16:56
  And I'm going to close the question off with are you happy
• 16:59
  with the change? And I hope the answer is yes.
• 17:02
  But if it's not, that's fine too, right?
• 17:03
  We could. We could put you on LinkedIn.
• 17:06
  No, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very happy and, and thank you for the
• 17:08
  offer, right. No, very, very happy.
• 17:12
  And I, like I said, I think I did my, my homework right.
• 17:15
  And thankfully for, because of my network, man, I interviewed a
• 17:21
  lot like say, hey, tell me what you know about this company.
• 17:24
  Tell me about what you know about this person, this other
• 17:27
  person, this other person. So I think almost like I, I knew
• 17:30
  everybody. I, I, I talked to everybody that
• 17:32
  I was going to work with. We, we kind of laid out a plan
• 17:36
  as, OK, this is pretty interesting.
• 17:40
  Regrets. Before you get to the regrets, I
• 17:42
  just want to highlight that that that importance of the network
• 17:46
  that you've built, right? And I think this is probably
• 17:48
  something for everybody who's listening is really build that
• 17:52
  network out, especially if you're just starting your
• 17:54
  career, because this is how changes happen, right?
• 17:57
  It's like, hey, you know what, you've had opportunities.
• 17:59
  I mean, I've had plenty of opportunities come through
• 18:01
  LinkedIn. They've been great.
• 18:02
  And I think this is one of those things where if you do, you
• 18:05
  know, manage your network, cultivate your network and
• 18:07
  establish real relationships, it can lead to really good things.
• 18:11
  Yes, 100% and and and start building it with the with
• 18:17
  intention and, and especially the way I do it is honestly, I
• 18:22
  love when I can get jobs for other people.
• 18:26
  And, and, and you, you've seen me posting right?
• 18:28
  So this company's hiring another IM job and I, I, I, I kept this
• 18:34
  to I'm, I'm making a point of when I see a good person
• 18:39
  connected to a good company and they guys, yes, I, I'm, I, I'm
• 18:43
  cheering them up as well. It feels good.
• 18:45
  Personally, I think something almost like selfish.
• 18:48
  I, I feel good when I connect people.
• 18:51
  So I think when I, I go back and ask them for helps.
• 18:53
  Hey, I need to talk to somebody and I, I, I, I always had the
• 18:58
  open doors when, when I needed that type of reciprocal.
• 19:05
  I've got it favors there, but I, I think that was part of
• 19:11
  managing the risk, right, of, of getting into a situation which
• 19:15
  was unknown. And I, I think every job change
• 19:20
  is stressful. So I had the many dinners with
• 19:22
  my wife and say, Hey, this is going to change.
• 19:25
  I have two kids, right? I have 11 year old Lucas boy.
• 19:30
  I have Olivia who is 7 and say I'll, I'll be I'm not be around
• 19:35
  much because of this new job, right.
• 19:38
  And so we, we sat down, we spoke a lot.
• 19:41
  I think communication about that.
• 19:43
  So I'll be traveling a lot. I'll be away is not going to be
• 19:48
  easier than it was. It's going to be definitely
• 19:51
  challenging, but I think it's worthwhile we embark together.
• 19:55
  So I brought her my my wife Slavia into this as well.
• 20:00
  So so if that was amazing and and and what she's been doing, I
• 20:08
  don't know if you met them Slavia, I don't think you met
• 20:10
  her, but now she's she's the one holding the 4th when I'm away,
• 20:14
  right. And we had, we are at this point
• 20:17
  in our relationship, in our marriage that.
• 20:20
  I know I can focus on my clients, I can focus on, on the
• 20:25
  identity stuff when I'm away and she's not going to be upset or
• 20:29
  angry or jealous or anything like that.
• 20:31
  I think we, we were 16 years together and, and we build this
• 20:36
  relationship. Speaking of relationships,
• 20:38
  right? So I think this is the most
• 20:39
  important one for me today. I did not expect that much about
• 20:43
  my wife, but because this was a a, a, a a personal journey, I
• 20:49
  think, I think it's important to to, to recognize the importance
• 20:54
  that our spouses having to this as well, right?
• 20:58
  So people see me only them, they see the travel.
• 21:01
  But nothing of that would be possible without her help and.
• 21:06
  Yeah, that's. Important all the activities and
• 21:08
  all the other stuff. That's important point to make
• 21:11
  there though about you're not the only one impacted by the
• 21:15
  travel right. And I did want to ask you like,
• 21:18
  do you like to travel? Because see, I've been following
• 21:22
  you on LinkedIn for a long time. And one of the question I wanted
• 21:26
  to ask you was how did you build the following that you did?
• 21:29
  But I think when you're at Gartner, it almost appeared like
• 21:33
  you're traveling a lot, but you weren't, right?
• 21:36
  You're always active. But now, I mean, you're every
• 21:40
  conference all over the world. I mean, you're 1,000,000 Miller
• 21:44
  for sure. Talk a little bit about that
• 21:48
  travel, because I don't think it's all glamorous, right?
• 21:52
  It's not. But to your question, yeah, I,
• 21:56
  I, I like traveling. Come on.
• 21:58
  I'm an immigrant, right? So I, I traveled from Brazil to
• 22:03
  live in Canada because I, I like this exploration of different
• 22:07
  cultures, different things and, and to experience things,
• 22:11
  different food, music, everything, right?
• 22:15
  So I enjoy that aspect and, and different people.
• 22:18
  What, what do they like heavy metal in Argentina or you know,
• 22:22
  and I think that excites me to, to know people and connect with
• 22:26
  other people things that I saw in Japan, how identity
• 22:30
  management problems in Japan are quite different from the rest of
• 22:33
  the world. So, so to your question, Jim,
• 22:36
  yes, I enjoy that. It's not all glamour, of course,
• 22:40
  it's not right. But I, I like to think I'm, I'm
• 22:46
  a very grateful person and life, life is good, right?
• 22:53
  So I, I think no matter what we're doing right.
• 22:56
  So a gardener was amazing and I was very great for a gardener
• 22:59
  today at Sabin. I'm very, very grateful for the
• 23:02
  opportunities of travel too. I'm racking up miles and then
• 23:06
  when I have the time, I'll try, I'll use those miles to be with
• 23:09
  my family. We go skiing.
• 23:11
  We, we do things that we, we enjoy to do as a family.
• 23:15
  But one thing, and, and now putting my Ellis hat suggestion,
• 23:20
  right. So if you are considering a job
• 23:22
  that has intense travel is you got to very quickly adapt to
• 23:26
  routines of travel, right? So I had my go bag.
• 23:30
  So I I don't spend time making like suitcases and, and, and so
• 23:35
  it's it's a it's a go bag, like as I guess like team a Swatch
• 23:39
  type of thing. OK, I'm traveling.
• 23:41
  So it, it I don't think I don't overthink a lot when I'm
• 23:44
  traveling already. OK, it's automatic.
• 23:46
  It becomes part of OK, I I brush my teeth, I have my exercise.
• 23:50
  OK, it's travel. OK, It's and gets a Nexus card,
• 23:54
  right. So Nexus is like APSA pre-check,
• 23:57
  whatever that that really helps the level of travel.
• 24:00
  So that kind of minimizes the stress of travel, right?
• 24:05
  So like missing flights or getting late to a plane or
• 24:09
  stock. So I think get a good credit
• 24:13
  card that gives you access to lounges.
• 24:15
  I think that that helps a lot. You can work or just have a
• 24:19
  beer, right? But but also get into that
• 24:23
  routine of something that, OK, it's just another day at the
• 24:27
  office. I'm not afraid to spend money to
• 24:29
  make my travel easier, so I couldn't agree more.
• 24:32
  Right. Get all the bells and whistles
• 24:34
  if you can afford it, to make that day of travel smooth.
• 24:39
  Exactly. Yeah, avoid like we're all in
• 24:42
  risk management in a way, right. So avoid the risks of losing
• 24:45
  flights, stressful things and, and, and and airplane flying
• 24:49
  things. Thankfully, I don't I don't have
• 24:54
  like a a a next unexplainable fear of flying.
• 24:58
  Some people may have like phobias, right, But no, I don't.
• 25:01
  I don't have that. So other than that, I'm I'm
• 25:05
  afraid of getting sick. That's that's one thing, though.
• 25:08
  I'm, I'm, I sometimes I traveling so much I'll get sick,
• 25:13
  right? I'll, I'll, I'll catch a bug or
• 25:14
  something, but no, I'm knock on wood.
• 25:18
  One thing I thought would happen as you made the transition from
• 25:22
  an analyst, because as an analyst, you're almost like a
• 25:26
  celebrity within the space, right?
• 25:29
  And so you were, I would say, one of the most popular
• 25:33
  celebrities on LinkedIn in terms of, you know, people reacting to
• 25:38
  your posts and things like that. And I thought when you went into
• 25:42
  industry that a lot of that would go away.
• 25:45
  And it hasn't. In fact, I think it's grown.
• 25:49
  What do you attribute that to and what is your tip for people
• 25:53
  who want to build that following?
• 25:57
  I think no, it's a, it's a great question, Jim, because I, I
• 26:01
  didn't know what was going to happen.
• 26:02
  I was, I, I had the same thought as you.
• 26:05
  So OK, I, I and, and speak of gratitude.
• 26:09
  I was very grateful for war. Garner gave me this exposure,
• 26:13
  this type of thing, because I was just a guy born in Brazil,
• 26:16
  an immigrant in Canada, right. So who, who, who is this Enrique
• 26:20
  guy? So it really opened doors and it
• 26:24
  gave me this amplified platform to share research and ideas,
• 26:30
  which I think is pretty cool. One thing that I noticed when
• 26:34
  when I switch jobs and I don't know if you're coincided with an
• 26:39
  with some changes in how LinkedIn operates, I actually
• 26:44
  saw a decline in engagement. So, and when I speak with other
• 26:50
  people like Becca Chambers and and other people like then they,
• 26:55
  they also noticed that a reduction in, in number of
• 27:00
  interactions or whatever it is, like it was something changed in
• 27:07
  the algorithm. So posts that typically, I don't
• 27:12
  know if that's interesting to talk about, but at average, I'll
• 27:15
  have like 5000 impressions for every post while a garner now
• 27:19
  I'm getting 2003 thousand as an average.
• 27:22
  So I, I, I did perceive that, but I, I, I tend not to worry
• 27:29
  too much. This is, this is not my day job,
• 27:33
  right? So I think the suggestion I
• 27:35
  make, Jim, for people looking to build following and, and I think
• 27:41
  find something that you think it's honest about your
• 27:44
  personality and things that gives you joy, right?
• 27:48
  For example, the example I gave, I, it brings me joy when I
• 27:51
  connect people looking for jobs with openings and I, I, I find
• 27:57
  them a job that brings me joy. So I'll do that.
• 28:00
  That's harmless, right? And I'm not promoting myself.
• 28:04
  I'm actually, well, I feel good because they are connected, but
• 28:08
  I'm helping somebody, right? So find something that is legit
• 28:14
  bringing you joy, but at the same time is not self-serving,
• 28:17
  if that's possible, right? So when the Garner when I was
• 28:22
  publishing research is like, hey, it's not like, look how
• 28:25
  great this research is. No, no, it's I think it can help
• 28:28
  you. And even beside or behind the
• 28:32
  the very strict paywall that Garner has, right?
• 28:36
  I was like, yeah, but I think they deserve a little bit of
• 28:38
  free advice. So I, I gave it a little bit of,
• 28:42
  hey, look at this or this particular trend is, is going to
• 28:46
  be very helpful for you to look at.
• 28:47
  So I think, Jim, if you're looking at from an honest angle
• 28:52
  and into helping others and try as much as you can to OK, how
• 28:58
  we're asking you the question, how is this post is going to be
• 29:03
  helping somebody? What's the audience, right, that
• 29:05
  this is going to be important to is it a Siso type of audience?
• 29:09
  Is it other identity professionals?
• 29:12
  It's it's just like a leadership, right?
• 29:15
  But it has to be honest in that way that it's helpful.
• 29:18
  Or sometimes I just post silly stuff or yeah, it's it's a joke.
• 29:22
  And then it's help in a way of making people feel better too
• 29:25
  and just have a laugh, right? But I think that is what worked
• 29:30
  for me. I've never been to social media
• 29:33
  classes or influencing type of classes.
• 29:36
  I know they exist. There are courses for that.
• 29:38
  But as I, I don't know, I'll, I'll do my thing here.
• 29:42
  And that's literally, I'm, I'm not joking.
• 29:44
  That's that's how I I've done it took a while, right to find that
• 29:51
  or, or or break away from the awkwardness of just posting
• 29:56
  things. And but that's something I I'm
• 29:58
  I'm also going with my team today at at saving and and and
• 30:01
  people that say, Enrique, can you coach me on this?
• 30:03
  Can you coach me on that? Yeah, I think that to break that
• 30:07
  initial awkwardness of avoid oh man, I'll be self promoting this
• 30:12
  and that and then I'll find something that helps others.
• 30:16
  You go from there. Yeah.
• 30:18
  So that's a good message is you can be self promoting if it's
• 30:24
  happening more or less by accident, really you're trying
• 30:26
  to help others and it just comes through that, you know, people
• 30:30
  start to recognize you, things like that.
• 30:35
  I wanted to talk get back into some IM topics, but I did have
• 30:40
  one more Oh. Yeah, it's an identity podcast,
• 30:42
  right? That's right.
• 30:44
  But I did have one more thing about Henrique.
• 30:46
  You said you love the travel. I think you said you love the
• 30:49
  heavy metal. So to me, you're the Rob Zombie
• 30:54
  of the digital identity, space and speaking.
• 30:58
  Of. Well, more human than human,
• 31:01
  right? You, you OK?
• 31:02
  You and the few ones that got the reference, Yes, but but
• 31:06
  please finish the question. OK.
• 31:08
  No, no. I mean, look, so one of the
• 31:10
  things that influencers do right is they get on the topic, say
• 31:14
  it's whether it's you, Eve, Ian, plenty of others.
• 31:18
  And so, you know, David, you kind of like talk about this
• 31:21
  topic for whatever year or so. And you the one that I think
• 31:26
  you're on the downside or kind of like finishing up with it.
• 31:30
  Is this machine identity more human than human, which is the
• 31:36
  the White Zombie reference. So please tell us what was this
• 31:40
  all about? Give us the too long didn't read
• 31:43
  explanation. Yeah, and, and and thank you,
• 31:47
  Jim, because yes, you got the reference correctly.
• 31:49
  So more human than human. A White Zombie song that really
• 31:53
  it was a big hit. And what got me into them?
• 31:56
  Early to thousands, right? It's also a quote from Blade
• 32:00
  Runner, right when they say we're building this to be more
• 32:03
  human than human. And I think a very appropriate
• 32:06
  to AI. And you are right on point, Jim.
• 32:11
  I, I, I'm, I'm still finding what's the correct amount, but
• 32:15
  it's some and I, I, I see a lot of parallels of what I do and
• 32:20
  other people do like the, the amazing professionals you
• 32:23
  mentioned, like David Motty and and or Ian Glaser.
• 32:27
  But I see this job almost like stand up comedy in a sense,
• 32:29
  right? So you build a set, you build a
• 32:32
  set of a show, right? It's an hour duration.
• 32:36
  It could be 45 minutes or 30 minutes.
• 32:38
  And so the show today is more human than human.
• 32:41
  It may be good for six months or eight months and then you need
• 32:45
  another set and then another set.
• 32:47
  That's, that's how I've been. I've been trying to find what's
• 32:51
  the the perfect balance. But I think 2A year.
• 32:54
  So starting perhaps in the middle of 2024, it was all about
• 33:01
  trends. The, the, the trends in identity
• 33:05
  security for 2025 and then more human to human machine
• 33:10
  identities. I'll, I'll perhaps thinking,
• 33:13
  what I'm thinking now is once this series of conferences and
• 33:19
  with, with Identiverse, then we switch back to identity security
• 33:24
  trends for 2026, right. So I think that's that's the
• 33:27
  groove I'm trying to get into. Have you started to come up with
• 33:32
  predictions for those the 2026 feature predictions?
• 33:37
  Yes. And the, the process I'm, I'm
• 33:41
  following right now is through voting and, and, but also
• 33:46
  research on, on topics that are trends, right.
• 33:50
  And I think there are the obvious ones around what I call
• 33:54
  post cloud trends. I didn't make up post cloud, but
• 33:58
  I think that's where we are, right.
• 34:00
  So cloud is 25 years old. What's what, what we are leaving
• 34:04
  today is already post cloud. So I think a lot of the trends
• 34:07
  will come with post cloud and I gentek AI of course we'll see.
• 34:13
  We'll see. It's a work in progress, huh?
• 34:15
  Yeah, that'll be you had mentioned.
• 34:18
  Show coming next I I guess. When we were kind of talking
• 34:21
  about this before you were talking about one of the
• 34:24
  predictions that was in Gartner's kind of go forward.
• 34:28
  They, they wrote a paper, but some of them from Gartner wrote
• 34:30
  a paper around these predictions.
• 34:34
  One of them was that there would be marketplaces for identity
• 34:37
  theft and I wanted to see what were your thoughts on that
• 34:42
  prediction? Yeah.
• 34:45
  And, and, and it's, it's a, it's a good, interesting way to think
• 34:48
  about two ways of discussing identity topics.
• 34:53
  Predictions are, are something that may become reality or not,
• 34:57
  right? And, and trends are things that
• 34:59
  are already happening, right. And I, and I think sometimes
• 35:02
  when we, we look at what Gartner publishes, they actually have a
• 35:05
  quite good separation between the two.
• 35:08
  So of course trends are more actionable things.
• 35:12
  That's why trends every year they they they kind of change
• 35:15
  and and and you act upon them predictions.
• 35:19
  That's that's one I think I saw Garner publishing.
• 35:23
  They have this future labs. Future labs is a very
• 35:25
  interesting thing because it's like used they used to call
• 35:29
  Maverick like it it it is research, which is not
• 35:33
  necessarily something that would happen, but it could be like
• 35:36
  wild ideas that could be OK, this this moon shots that happen
• 35:41
  right. So the marketplace of
• 35:43
  identities, the way they wrote about it is, yes, criminals
• 35:48
  already have that, right? So we call that IABS initial
• 35:51
  access brokers where you can go in.
• 35:54
  And I have, hey, I, I want to buy a workforce identity for
• 36:00
  somebody that works at Bank of America.
• 36:04
  So you go to the dark web and you could, you could buy a
• 36:07
  username and a password for somebody that works in there,
• 36:10
  right? So that exists today.
• 36:13
  Now what are they, they, they're predicting something based on
• 36:17
  that, but for use in a more legit way.
• 36:21
  For example, I have my social media presence.
• 36:25
  What if you go in and you buy this social media account, which
• 36:31
  comes with 50,000 followers? It that's that's one way of
• 36:35
  looking at that. And I think you can buy that by
• 36:38
  the way, right? So or customer data, you can
• 36:42
  actually go in and buy databases of customer data today, but this
• 36:48
  becomes much more personal when you say, well, I will sell you
• 36:53
  pieces of my credential, for example, my bank history or
• 36:57
  whatever for your marketing purposes, right?
• 37:00
  So you get rewarded, you get paid 4 pieces of your identity
• 37:05
  that you sell. So that's the idea of an
• 37:07
  identity marketplace is you could be starting exchanging or
• 37:11
  having transactions between individuals identities or
• 37:16
  machines buying things from other machines or machines,
• 37:19
  buying things from humans or corporations, buying things from
• 37:22
  from individuals as well. Quite wild.
• 37:26
  You should think about it. I, I look at my kids, right?
• 37:31
  Do they even have a sense of privacy these days?
• 37:35
  I think that's a question we keep asking ourselves, right?
• 37:38
  Gen. ZS and Gen. alphas?
• 37:40
  Do they even care about privacy at this point?
• 37:42
  And and how much would they charge for pieces of their
• 37:46
  credentials? Now we had this conversation
• 37:48
  with Eve Mailer recently. You know, she does the the
• 37:52
  privacy is I think she her talk is privacy is dead or consent is
• 37:57
  dead. And it's like you keep getting
• 38:00
  all the the spam, scam spam. I like to call it and you're
• 38:06
  like, OK, well, how did they even get that information?
• 38:09
  I get like 10 calls from the same lender.
• 38:13
  They're coming in from different phone numbers.
• 38:15
  They leave me voicemails like, hey, we'd like to lend you this
• 38:19
  much money. I'm like, how do they even get
• 38:21
  my information? Was it one of the credit cards
• 38:23
  that I have sold them the information?
• 38:26
  Is there anything I can do to even control it?
• 38:29
  So I don't know that it's the Gen.
• 38:32
  Z doesn't care about privacy, but they're probably in they're
• 38:35
  realistically in the same boat as the rest of us, which is how
• 38:39
  can I even control it? What can I even do about it?
• 38:42
  This is inevitable, right? It's going to happen no matter
• 38:45
  what. So I think the idea of a
• 38:46
  marketplace maybe at least something, it's a more of a fair
• 38:50
  game because you you intentionally share things and
• 38:53
  you get compensated for it. Yeah.
• 38:57
  It's a new way to monetize theft I think, but it's and those will
• 39:01
  continue to be out there and that will drive that industry if
• 39:07
  that's what you want to call it. But you know what, another thing
• 39:11
  I'm really interested in is, you know, you're out touring the
• 39:16
  world as we talked about and you're talking to a lot of
• 39:19
  customers. And I'm wondering like, what is
• 39:23
  it that they are asking for? What are they talking to you
• 39:26
  about it? I'm sure AI is going to be one
• 39:28
  of those answers, but what what about like next level stuff even
• 39:34
  within AI? Is it AI doing certain features?
• 39:38
  Like what are people asking for and and?
• 39:42
  It, it, it is less about AI and I think for, for a good measure,
• 39:46
  what they're asking for is not like, Hey, I want to buy AI to
• 39:50
  do this. They, but they, they, they want
• 39:52
  to buy something that has the characteristics of the ease of
• 39:59
  use of AI. I'll give an example.
• 40:01
  And I think a recurrent problem and you guys may have faced that
• 40:04
  too, is application on boarding, right?
• 40:07
  And, and how difficult it is to this day, right?
• 40:12
  So you walk into organizations, how many years it take and they
• 40:16
  have low AII successfully on board a couple 100 apps, but I
• 40:20
  still have like thousands that I'm not even touching right.
• 40:23
  This is a problem that I over and over on those fundamental
• 40:28
  problems that is to exist. So clients, they ask us, they
• 40:32
  ask me and say, Enrique, I wish it could be something like
• 40:37
  Dynatrace. Just to mention on the vendor
• 40:39
  here, not in identity, but you plug in and the sensor just
• 40:43
  scans things and just connects and then start monitoring,
• 40:46
  right? You start monitoring things.
• 40:48
  It's kind of magic. It's kind of the way AI behaves
• 40:51
  when you're interacting with a with a with a copilot or
• 40:55
  something like that say hey, do this and it just scans and
• 40:58
  starts monitoring. Of course, identity is more
• 41:01
  complex than that, especially for provisioning.
• 41:03
  You guys know this, right? So the API is scam.
• 41:06
  It works sometimes. So I think the expectation is
• 41:12
  there something that is just like AI, perhaps I would say
• 41:17
  more like utility, right. So it's almost like a turning on
• 41:20
  the light. You don't think about how,
• 41:21
  what's, what takes into like using a faucet for water to come
• 41:26
  out a, a, a tap, right. So I think if we can make
• 41:30
  identity more utility like, I think that's what they're
• 41:33
  looking for, right? And, and I think that's the ask
• 41:35
  say, Hey, we're and, and I think that's the analogy I used when
• 41:39
  I, I joined saving to say, well, we still have organizations that
• 41:42
  don't have running water. That was the analogy.
• 41:45
  There's no plumbing, the basics of provisioning user movers,
• 41:51
  joiners and levers even that basic stuff is not sold.
• 41:54
  And how are we even think like governance with AI and and
• 41:58
  security posture management, right?
• 41:59
  So I think of a lot of the times discussions, they still start
• 42:03
  very basic, say I I need to onboard those apps, those apps
• 42:08
  still disconnected. Is that a trap, Henry here?
• 42:10
  Because I find like, there's a lot of companies out there that
• 42:12
  are like, oh, we've got this shiny new thing and, you know,
• 42:16
  you're going to be able to do all of those cool stuff, but it
• 42:18
  doesn't address any of the basics.
• 42:20
  And, you know, I'll probably speak for Jim here as well.
• 42:22
  But in our day jobs, we see this a lot.
• 42:24
  Like they do not have running water.
• 42:25
  They are still using fax machines and word forms and
• 42:29
  other mechanisms, right, to do like basic IGA functionality.
• 42:33
  I just wonder if if this is a trap that maybe I am
• 42:37
  technologists get into where they're thinking so far ahead
• 42:41
  and assuming that there are basics in place that might not
• 42:44
  be there for the vast majority of companies. 100% I, I think
• 42:48
  that's happening now, right? You see a very shiny interface
• 42:53
  like access graphs here and there, but it's, it is like 2
• 42:58
  steps removed from the, from the plumbing of the problem here,
• 43:01
  right? So it assumes that you have the
• 43:03
  connectivity solved, which is, which is not solving, right?
• 43:08
  So there, there's that problem, but also the and, and I'll, I'll
• 43:13
  mention a vendor here because I think that was the right
• 43:16
  approach and I think it worked well.
• 43:19
  But I think people and other vendors are, are perhaps taking
• 43:24
  that example and, and taking the wrong direction.
• 43:26
  I'll, I'll mention Octa, right? And I think what Octa did for
• 43:29
  SAML was very intriguing, right? If you guys remember when it
• 43:33
  came first and said, yeah, we will solve SSO in a very simple
• 43:39
  way and it's called SAML and that, that was their first run
• 43:42
  was a SAML type of thing, right? And it's a yeah, but I have all
• 43:46
  this legacy things here, all this legacy apps.
• 43:49
  No, no, no, forget about that. That's now.
• 43:51
  We're going to sell that later. Let's let's focus on the Samuel
• 43:54
  apps first. That's that's the future.
• 43:56
  Well, and, and, and and then and they sold a lot of that because
• 43:59
  they're selling that simplicity of SEML solving everything
• 44:02
  right. And eventually they launched the
• 44:04
  the the gateway for on on premise stuff.
• 44:07
  And then it became more of A and by that time they had the, the
• 44:10
  grasp right of the market around SSO and MFA.
• 44:13
  That's right, very various more play.
• 44:17
  But I don't think or I don't know how somebody's, well, we'll
• 44:20
  do scam only, right or we're going to do provisioning just
• 44:23
  for the cloud. All right, OK.
• 44:26
  But how you solve the rest is not like, oh, you have this one
• 44:30
  connector that is going to do everything right.
• 44:31
  So it, it is not an easy to solve problem without getting to
• 44:39
  the details of what, what Sabint is doing.
• 44:41
  I think it has to do with AII think it has to do with CICD
• 44:45
  pipelines as well. Terraform, we are launching
• 44:50
  solutions today that mixes both, right, a little bit of the
• 44:53
  Dynatrace discovery with the automatic or or infrastructure
• 44:59
  as code capabilities of Terraform to alleviate some of
• 45:03
  that thing. But I don't think there's a,
• 45:05
  there's a magic solution like SAML for provision.
• 45:08
  Maybe another way of looking at that is more like a better
• 45:14
  version of an RPA and I think that's.
• 45:16
  I think you got it right though. I think you got it right with
• 45:19
  what you said there about Octa and the, the approach that you
• 45:23
  laid out has always been my opinion exactly what happened.
• 45:27
  In fact, when Octa first came out and that was their approach,
• 45:31
  I was like, that's never going to work because you have all
• 45:33
  these legacy apps. And I was, I'll admit I was the
• 45:37
  wrong one, right? I mean organizations were
• 45:40
  willing to switch their apps. But I think the reason it sold
• 45:44
  was you said as the practitioner, I can give 25% or
• 45:48
  I can just give single sign on to my cloud apps and that's a
• 45:52
  benefit. So if you did that for your
• 45:55
  provisioning, it only covered 20% and it just covered your
• 45:59
  cloud apps. I mean it, it's, it's different.
• 46:03
  I think the provisioning is a harder problem to solve.
• 46:07
  Also, I think access management has always been an easier
• 46:11
  problem to solve in it. The evidence is what's out there
• 46:16
  in terms of solutions. The provisioning IGA is more
• 46:21
  complex than rolling out single sign on.
• 46:24
  Well, this is the key decision though to make, right?
• 46:26
  It's like, OK, Okta, right, was free at first.
• 46:28
  It was that was, it had a really simple interface and it was free
• 46:32
  to put in two or three apps for smaller shops at least.
• 46:35
  And so they got a foothold here. But this is a decision I think
• 46:38
  every vendor, especially new ones have to make is where do we
• 46:42
  start? And right now the cloud is
• 46:44
  probably the easiest because there are more standards in
• 46:47
  place like SAML, Open ID Connect, Skim new ones coming up
• 46:51
  like SSF and Cape and things like that.
• 46:54
  Do you really want to spend your time building a on premise
• 46:58
  Active Directory or SAP or Oracle, you know thing?
• 47:03
  And it is a decision every single technology vendor has had
• 47:07
  to make for like the last 10 or 15 years, maybe even longer to
• 47:10
  say where are we going to start. Yeah.
• 47:13
  And, and, and it's a great point if especially if you think of
• 47:16
  what what I said about we're in a post cloud world, right?
• 47:20
  SAML was a solution for a cloud world.
• 47:23
  What's next? Agents, right?
• 47:25
  AI agents. So and, and, and there are
• 47:29
  predictions saying that AI agent will kill apps.
• 47:32
  So no longer you don't, it doesn't, doesn't matter.
• 47:35
  It doesn't care what apps you have.
• 47:37
  You interact with this interface called an agent.
• 47:39
  An agent will talk to those to the to the apps, right?
• 47:42
  So maybe, and that's what I think if we focus on
• 47:46
  provisioning of agents and the identity security of the agents,
• 47:52
  I do expect that the growth of use of agents is going to be
• 47:57
  exponential. Just like we saw with AWS or
• 48:00
  Azure and Google. We're going to see Microsoft
• 48:05
  Copilot Studio and AWS Bedrock just like skyrocketing the
• 48:10
  number of agents doing things like in a very insecure way too,
• 48:15
  right? And I think that's where a lot
• 48:17
  of companies, every company that I speak to say, oh, are you
• 48:19
  using Bedrock? Yeah, we're using Bedrock.
• 48:21
  Oh, are you using pilot studio? Right.
• 48:24
  So and that's putting software development capabilities again
• 48:29
  like it, it's a citizen developer type of problem and
• 48:32
  and those are people without any cybersecurity training, much
• 48:36
  less identity training, right? There's a lot of great insight
• 48:40
  right there. I kind of wonder like if if
• 48:43
  organizations aren't getting ahead with the agentic AI
• 48:47
  because it could be a practitioners out there
• 48:50
  listening to this episode and heard what you said earlier,
• 48:52
  which is clients want to take the problems that they're
• 48:56
  solving today and use AI to make those easier to make them less
• 49:01
  of a problem. They might be saying, I don't
• 49:04
  have this AI agent problem that you're talking about.
• 49:09
  But what I hear you saying is, oh, but you will.
• 49:13
  And if you don't get ahead of it, it's going to be like the
• 49:15
  single sign on problem where you started having all these
• 49:19
  applications pop out of the woodwork and you were so far
• 49:23
  behind yours, you know, with your old web access management
• 49:27
  system still trying to figure out how to integrate them.
• 49:31
  It is funny, but Jim, maybe you saw this, there was and this is
• 49:38
  market share analysis, right. So things that about the AI
• 49:42
  agent AI market, it's already, I think it's a $6 billion market,
• 49:48
  which is nuts to think about how recent this whole thing was
• 49:52
  launched by Salesforce and others, right?
• 49:54
  So, so a $6 billion market, just for reference, this is bigger
• 49:58
  than the entire access management market, which is
• 50:01
  about 5 point something. So Antra ID, Octa, Peng and
• 50:06
  Forge Rock, everything combined is already smaller than the
• 50:11
  agentic AI market. So yes, it's already happening.
• 50:14
  This thing is exploding. So I wanted to ask you use the
• 50:18
  term identity security earlier. And I, I, I probably bring this
• 50:24
  up in almost every episode. So, but you haven't been on in a
• 50:27
  while. So I don't think I've asked you,
• 50:29
  but what is identity security and is IGA identity security and
• 50:37
  is saving? Do you even feel good about like
• 50:40
  we're an IGA company? Are you guys more than that?
• 50:43
  So a couple questions all in one, but I've at it.
• 50:47
  What is identity security? It's a way of doing
• 50:50
  cybersecurity, right? So you can do cybersecurity from
• 50:53
  an endpoint, from a data. So you have endpoint security,
• 50:58
  you have network security, you have your data security.
• 51:02
  This is security. Gardner calls that identity
• 51:06
  first security. I just dropped it first because
• 51:09
  identity security means putting security in the center of your
• 51:13
  your cybersecurity program. So instead of using network and
• 51:18
  perimeter based type of IP addresses and firewalls as your
• 51:22
  main program strategy, you're going to be using the context of
• 51:28
  identities, the risk of identities for making decisions
• 51:31
  on data, on endpoints, on applications, on everything on
• 51:35
  cloud, right. So Zitn A, Zitn A is a great
• 51:39
  example of network based enforcement based on identity
• 51:46
  security. All right.
• 51:48
  So and when, when I, I was seeing this terminology coming
• 51:56
  up, even before joining savings, I saw two almost like two types
• 52:01
  of vendors, right. So either you're a part of that
• 52:03
  plumbing that we spoke about before right on the provisioning
• 52:06
  on the SSO and the MFA and the Pam stuff or you are protecting
• 52:10
  the plumbing. That's another way of looking at
• 52:12
  identity security as well. So you are either protecting
• 52:15
  this plumbing from not breaking down or you are actually part of
• 52:19
  the plumbing, right? So I see identity security as
• 52:21
  the protection of that identity infrastructure as well.
• 52:24
  That's a great analogy. I love that.
• 52:26
  And it's like almost like I'll take it a different step.
• 52:28
  It's like it's the electrical line running through and it
• 52:31
  executes A surge protector that sits somewhere along the line to
• 52:35
  make sure that you know, if if something happens, something
• 52:37
  pops, it's like, OK, let's protect some things back here.
• 52:42
  Yeah. And there are different angles
• 52:43
  of protection of that of that power grid, right.
• 52:46
  So same with identity, right. So I was just having a
• 52:50
  discussion today about a vendor that just not just they, they,
• 52:54
  they focus on resiliency, right. So backup and recovery of
• 52:58
  identity providers, that is identity security too.
• 53:03
  Absolutely. And it's often overlooked too.
• 53:05
  It's like, oh, we just stood this up now we put all our eggs
• 53:08
  in that basket. What happens if it goes down or
• 53:10
  AD or Entra or Octa, whatever it may be, right.
• 53:13
  There's that resiliency is such a big part and I, I don't see it
• 53:16
  talked about enough because I think people are still trying to
• 53:19
  figure out how to get the stuff stood up.
• 53:20
  And then, well, what do you mean?
• 53:22
  What happens if it falls down? It's, it's the cloud.
• 53:24
  It's just supposed to work. It, it is funny, right?
• 53:27
  But yeah, there's only three vendors that do that, right?
• 53:29
  And then Rubric, I think Rubric, they, they launched a, a, a new
• 53:33
  play around that too. They do already like AD backup
• 53:36
  and recovery, but there's another vendor called the Mighty
• 53:40
  ID and accents. There's not a lot.
• 53:42
  And we've had, I think if we've had all of them on our show as
• 53:46
  either sponsors or guests or things like that in the past.
• 53:47
  So yeah, it's it's a small but. I'll ask for my Commission then
• 53:51
  because I mentioned them. The check is in the mail.
• 53:54
  How about that? We'll give you a sticker next
• 53:56
  time we see you at a conference. We've been talking for like
• 53:59
  almost an hour and I feel like you've only kind of scratched
• 54:01
  the surface. I had, I think three things that
• 54:04
  I want to cover before we wrap up.
• 54:06
  The first one is when you talk to somebody and you say I'm in
• 54:10
  the X industry, what do you tell them?
• 54:14
  Do you say I work in identity and access management?
• 54:16
  I work in digital identity, I work in identity security.
• 54:20
  Like how do you introduce yourself as like, oh, this is
• 54:22
  the area that I work in, like my, my subject.
• 54:26
  I say cybersecurity, cybersecurity I, I work in
• 54:29
  cybersecurity and, and like I said, because I'm, I'm doing
• 54:32
  identity for security, identity security, right?
• 54:36
  So IJ is one of the products that we sell and, and, but the,
• 54:41
  the bigger goal of the company is cybersecurity.
• 54:43
  We are a cybersecurity company and I think it's easier to
• 54:46
  explain to like a if, if you're going through like border
• 54:51
  control and say what are you doing?
• 54:52
  Oh, I do cyber. Oh yeah, I know what it means.
• 54:55
  I said no I do ISPN or I said. What?
• 54:58
  Yeah, They don't, they don't know, and that's fine.
• 55:00
  They they probably shouldn't, right?
• 55:01
  I mean, it's probably one of those things that kind of sits
• 55:03
  behind the scenes. So I, so my mom might say, work
• 55:06
  with computers. I have to like go up up one
• 55:09
  level like a CIO level. Yeah, we make we call that
• 55:13
  executive speak, right. It's very similar to baby talk.
• 55:17
  There. So there's another job title I
• 55:20
  think that you're going to be adding soon.
• 55:21
  I know you guys are starting a podcast, so we're going to have
• 55:24
  some some friendly competition here, but tell us a bit about
• 55:26
  what's coming up here soon. Yeah, you guys are the Ogs,
• 55:29
  right? So yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty
• 55:31
  exciting because it is a a podcast.
• 55:36
  It, it, it is run by Savient, but we're going to have 4, 4
• 55:40
  hosts and it's, it's, it's pretty exciting because all
• 55:44
  different personalities. I'm one of those, of course I
• 55:50
  one of the things I want you guys as guests and and you
• 55:54
  already on my list there. We're happy to do it.
• 55:56
  You have us on record now we're on the Internet of saying yes,
• 55:59
  we'll do it, so we can't back out.
• 56:00
  But it's something super exciting because when, when I
• 56:03
  join Sabian, they, they had this idea.
• 56:06
  OK, Enrique, I think we were planning to have a podcast.
• 56:09
  Now we have you and, and now we have amazing people like David
• 56:13
  Lee, right? The identity of Jedi working
• 56:15
  with us. We have Jim Rouse, Simon Gooch.
• 56:19
  So they, they, they brought in this people together.
• 56:22
  And OK, you're going to have 4 hosts and we're going to have
• 56:26
  this, this guests that he can interact.
• 56:29
  What I love is and and my concern is, is that going to be
• 56:34
  something boring corporate, but thankfully my colleagues, my Co
• 56:39
  hosts visit now it's going to be a while and fun.
• 56:42
  OK, All right. So then fingers crossed that we
• 56:45
  we keep that promise. So when does it?
• 56:48
  I guess when does it come out? Coming up in June, so right
• 56:52
  after we we aired this episode, I think.
• 56:56
  OK. And it's called what Savvy Talk
• 56:58
  or Savvy talk? Savvy talk similar, yeah.
• 57:01
  So we'll be keeping an eye out for that.
• 57:03
  And yeah, we're happy to go on. I think I don't think there's
• 57:06
  enough people talking about identity.
• 57:07
  The more people talking about the bigger, the bigger we all
• 57:09
  get right from like an industry. Standpoint exactly same thing
• 57:12
  with my colleagues and other vendor competitors or I say hey
• 57:16
  we we compete we're not enemies right so we're competitors
• 57:21
  Speaking of which this hat right.
• 57:22
  So I, I think it's, it's an interesting thing about Formula
• 57:25
  One, just to make the analogy here is that one thing that we
• 57:29
  saw if, if you, if you watch Formula One, is that the, the
• 57:33
  teams, right? They compete among themselves,
• 57:35
  like have Ferrari and and McLaren and and Williams, but
• 57:39
  every team has 2 pilots, two race car drivers, right?
• 57:43
  And sometimes they get into situations where they compete
• 57:47
  with, with themselves, right? So Oscar Piastri, Landon Norris,
• 57:51
  they they get in the situation now they're they're maybe when
• 57:54
  this episode air, we're going to see, but it's pretty tense.
• 57:57
  It's so we have this internal competition as well.
• 58:00
  So not very different from our world, I think our corporate
• 58:04
  world. I think of like a Talladega
• 58:07
  night situation. You got Ricky Bobby and Shake
• 58:09
  and Bake and all that stuff going on.
• 58:15
  I want to ask a side question here.
• 58:17
  What kind of end here on a lighter note, and I want to be
• 58:20
  respectful over time. So I know you're a musician.
• 58:23
  You can play the guitar. I've had this guitar in my
• 58:26
  background if you're watching for, I don't know, three years
• 58:29
  and I still cannot play it. And so I think about things.
• 58:33
  Obviously we we joke about AI, but AI is really coming for the
• 58:36
  music business as well. And there is plenty of like
• 58:38
  music generators out there. And I just wonder what your
• 58:40
  thought is around the use of AI to create music.
• 58:46
  Like where are your? Where's your head at?
• 58:47
  Right there. Yeah, and I I think you may have
• 58:49
  heard that that that's saying, right.
• 58:51
  I want AI to help me do the laundry and to wash dishes and
• 58:56
  let me have time to write poetry and sing and paint, right.
• 59:01
  But I think what's happening a little bit at the opposite,
• 59:03
  right? We see AI like creating
• 59:05
  pictures. I'm still.
• 59:06
  Doing dishes and yeah, AI is. Yeah, and I'm doing all the, all
• 59:10
  the, all the chores that are they're pretty boring and I
• 59:12
  don't want to do it right. So I think that principle for me
• 59:15
  remains, we got to switch that a little bit.
• 59:17
  Let AI do the disgusting things, the, the, the labor intensive
• 59:22
  things that I don't want to do right.
• 59:25
  But if you think about music producing, producing, recording
• 59:28
  music, even before this, when I was a kid, there was like Fruity
• 59:33
  Loops, Fruity Loops, not, not the serial, but there was like a
• 59:36
  sequencing machine for drum sequencing and, and I could
• 59:39
  record my, my guitar tracks on top of it.
• 59:42
  That was not AI because you had to program the things.
• 59:45
  But now when, if you, if you're familiar with garage band, that
• 59:50
  comes like embedded a Mac. So if you buy a Mac Macintosh
• 59:54
  computer today, it comes to garage band.
• 59:56
  There's a virtual drummer there. All right, So guitar is, it's
• 1:00:00
  easy because you can plug it in. But a drum is like like this,
• 1:00:03
  like you have to put the mics. It's very complicated to to to
• 1:00:07
  capture drum sounds. So using a virtual drummer, it's
• 1:00:11
  already AI, right? And I, I use that a lot too,
• 1:00:14
  especially if you are just like a, you're writing specific, like
• 1:00:18
  it's a demo, an idea you don't want to forget.
• 1:00:20
  So the I, the AI drummer is amazing.
• 1:00:24
  There is this podcaster called Rick Piato and he's he he likes
• 1:00:29
  to, well, I mean, he's amazing, but he has his kid and I think
• 1:00:35
  he's a Gen. alpha kid. And I'll, I'll get to the answer
• 1:00:38
  to your question, I promise real quick.
• 1:00:40
  So this this guy said he was listening to songs and he, he,
• 1:00:44
  he kids, his kid walks by and say, Hey, dad, why are you
• 1:00:49
  listening to AI? He said, what, what do you mean?
• 1:00:51
  And and this guy is a classical musician trained here and I, I
• 1:00:55
  couldn't tell, but somehow the Gen. alphas, they can say, Hey,
• 1:00:59
  this is AI music. This is not written by humans.
• 1:01:02
  And the kid could tell. I don't know if it's true,
• 1:01:04
  right. I I think this, Jeff, I think
• 1:01:08
  everything is a tool if used as a tool.
• 1:01:11
  Now I'd like to see bands playing live, All right?
• 1:01:16
  I think people would still pay extra money to go and see, oh, I
• 1:01:19
  want to see why Zombie playing live or Metallica, whatever,
• 1:01:23
  Slipknot, you name it, right? So people will still pay to see
• 1:01:26
  that. Not a hologram, not an AI
• 1:01:29
  version of that. So people pay extra just like
• 1:01:32
  they pay extra to have a vinyl today, right.
• 1:01:35
  I'll, I'll tell you more and making this a connection to our
• 1:01:38
  identity world. People would pay extra to see an
• 1:01:41
  analyst or you guys on stage for real than to read the research
• 1:01:46
  papers and and advice from AII think that's that's where people
• 1:01:52
  say AI is going to take our jobs.
• 1:01:54
  I think no. I think it's going to help us as
• 1:01:57
  this additional tool. So for a musician, I think it
• 1:01:59
  can be helpful for writing more creatively.
• 1:02:03
  It's going to be a more of a creative tool.
• 1:02:05
  I want like 5 drums at the same time doing crazy stuff.
• 1:02:10
  You can experiment much in a simpler way than having
• 1:02:13
  microphones. Now the quality, I think in the
• 1:02:20
  back of my mind I will also this was machine generated.
• 1:02:24
  It's not as great as somebody playing live.
• 1:02:26
  So I think I would always give the value to something that is
• 1:02:31
  real or played live in front of me.
• 1:02:35
  And maybe not everybody would agree with that.
• 1:02:38
  I would say perhaps a fraction of the population would agree
• 1:02:42
  with me and I think that's the same fraction that's to OK.
• 1:02:46
  I want to see that band live, or I want to buy a Vine, or I want
• 1:02:49
  to buy like physical media. Well, I think there's there's a
• 1:02:53
  couple items and I agree with everything you said.
• 1:02:55
  Like, yeah, there's, I mean, what is live music going to look
• 1:02:58
  like? If it's all AI, it's just you're
• 1:02:59
  staring at a computer screen, right?
• 1:03:01
  Or is it some sort of weird robot or something?
• 1:03:03
  Right Or is a hot take is a is a DJA real musician?
• 1:03:07
  But this, this idea of I think there's two different flavors
• 1:03:11
  here. We're talking about AI
• 1:03:13
  generating music and creating music right, because generate I
• 1:03:17
  is kind of hot stuff, but there's always then computer
• 1:03:20
  aided music right synthesizers and yeah auto tune.
• 1:03:25
  Whether that's good or bad, I think that's, you know, that's
• 1:03:28
  up to the individual. But this idea of taking
• 1:03:31
  electronics is one thing which I can certainly get right.
• 1:03:34
  There's plenty of famous people who do it.
• 1:03:37
  You go back to Stevie Wonder has done it as well as, you know,
• 1:03:39
  Mark Rebier, who does loops. And it's amazing what they can
• 1:03:42
  create with these tools. And I'm curious, like, where
• 1:03:45
  does where is AI fitness? Because I think of services like
• 1:03:48
  Suno dot AI where you can say, you know, make a song for this
• 1:03:53
  thing and it does a pretty pathible job.
• 1:03:56
  Now, is it going to win a Grammy?
• 1:03:59
  No, not yet. But what happens when it becomes
• 1:04:04
  indistinguishable from that? Does the artist change more
• 1:04:08
  into, well, I can't play my guitar, but I can certainly
• 1:04:13
  think of a riff or a track or something, right?
• 1:04:16
  That I want to have somebody help me create, but I can't do
• 1:04:19
  it physically. So maybe there's an
• 1:04:20
  accessibility component of it. My fingers don't do the thing.
• 1:04:24
  Maybe there's a musical cognition thing that I just
• 1:04:27
  don't have, that it might help me.
• 1:04:29
  Or does it start to replace those skills and musicians
• 1:04:34
  become, you know, more unique and more rare of the people who
• 1:04:38
  can actually do that? Because it almost becomes like a
• 1:04:40
  lost art. Yeah.
• 1:04:43
  And then I, I think goes back to the joy of, of, of the
• 1:04:49
  performance of, of watching the performance live, right.
• 1:04:53
  I think, I think that's for me, maybe I'm, I'm boiling down all
• 1:04:58
  the problems back into that because there is the, the way
• 1:05:03
  you consume music, right? It could be an audiophile and
• 1:05:06
  then you have like high grade things.
• 1:05:09
  And, and for that person, if, if, if you're watching your
• 1:05:11
  couch or listening to something, your couch or watching a movie,
• 1:05:16
  the experience of listening may not be that different.
• 1:05:20
  Now. I think it, it, it, it matters
• 1:05:24
  where the music came from, right?
• 1:05:26
  I, I, I don't know if, if, if you ever thought of this, but I
• 1:05:31
  like this band because I know those are great guys and I and,
• 1:05:34
  and people always recommend never meet your, your your what
• 1:05:39
  it what they call. Never meet your heroes.
• 1:05:41
  Not meet your heroes. It may be disappointed right,
• 1:05:43
  but I think there's this nuances on on writers right and then
• 1:05:48
  goes back to books. OK, Oh, if, if it comes from
• 1:05:51
  this writer or it comes from Steven Spielberg, I like that
• 1:05:54
  style movie as well. I think it's the human thing of
• 1:06:01
  knowing. I, I want to know the background
• 1:06:03
  of things. As for me, it's music has been
• 1:06:05
  always more OK, but who played that record or who recorded that
• 1:06:08
  record? Who was the producer of that
• 1:06:09
  record? I, those are things that excites
• 1:06:12
  me. But I, I also know that my wife
• 1:06:17
  doesn't care about that at all. And I think a big portion of the
• 1:06:21
  population may be pretty content with AI generated stuff.
• 1:06:26
  Yeah, I think it's gonna be interesting, like how it
• 1:06:28
  unfolds. It's like, OK, how do you
• 1:06:30
  replicate something like Rodrigue and Gabriela where
• 1:06:33
  they're making you have two guitars and making all this
• 1:06:35
  crazy, you know, like, Oh my gosh, how creative does that
• 1:06:39
  look like? So I, I just, I, I wanted to ask
• 1:06:41
  you because I know it gets, you know, out there and there's a
• 1:06:43
  lot of things going on and Jim, I'm sure you've got.
• 1:06:45
  Do you like, I mean do do you give that importance of where
• 1:06:48
  the the the art is coming from? I think it depends on the
• 1:06:52
  context for me. Like I, you know, I stream a lot
• 1:06:54
  of music and so yes, I like the convenience of that.
• 1:06:57
  But I love live music. Like going to a show is great.
• 1:07:01
  So if you want to go see White Zombie or Slipknot or any of
• 1:07:04
  these bands, I am all in. Like I love live music because I
• 1:07:07
  don't think you can replicate but.
• 1:07:12
  What I mean is that do do you care, for example, which drummer
• 1:07:16
  is playing today for Slipknot? If it's a different drummer,
• 1:07:18
  say, I don't like it that much, but I I want to know more and go
• 1:07:21
  do the research behind the music that I think that was more of
• 1:07:24
  it. I think it depends on where you
• 1:07:26
  are from fans. So Metallica is probably a very
• 1:07:27
  good example of that. So when Jason Newsted left and
• 1:07:31
  they replaced him with Robert Tujillo as the bassist, I really
• 1:07:34
  kind of fell off. I didn't like the direction, the
• 1:07:36
  style. And they're still, you know,
• 1:07:37
  good. And I would go see them and
• 1:07:39
  stuff like that. But I do think you you you gain
• 1:07:42
  an affinity for the band members that you like and appreciate and
• 1:07:45
  have been together for a while. So I think there is some of
• 1:07:47
  that. But does everybody go to that
• 1:07:49
  and say, OK, well, does it matter if I'm listening to it in
• 1:07:52
  my car? Or maybe it doesn't even matter
• 1:07:55
  on the stage because it's a role in the band that is not quite as
• 1:07:58
  prominent right as like the lead singer or in the case of
• 1:08:01
  Metallica, the. Drummer but you got the new ones
• 1:08:03
  right. You saw the the the directional
• 1:08:06
  change of the band, right or even if Cliff Burton right, not
• 1:08:09
  the Cliff right. So I I think.
• 1:08:11
  The band definitely changed after that.
• 1:08:12
  I mean, they treat. I mean, there's almost, we could
• 1:08:14
  do many podcasts about Metallica and the history on there.
• 1:08:17
  But yeah, there's there is. Definitely people like you and
• 1:08:20
  I, I think they will still, OK now I, I, we do care where this
• 1:08:24
  music is coming from, not if it's a streamy or, or digital or
• 1:08:28
  physical, but who played it, who recorded, who produced it,
• 1:08:32
  right? I think it makes a difference.
• 1:08:34
  And I think not everybody cares about it.
• 1:08:37
  So that, that's, that's the sad reality.
• 1:08:38
  I don't think people care about that in general.
• 1:08:41
  So I I think it's a minority. I think that's a fair
• 1:08:44
  assessment. Jim, you, I want to hear what
• 1:08:46
  you think about this because I'm curious to see what your
• 1:08:49
  thoughts are. Well, I think there's a couple
• 1:08:52
  things. So we talked, you mentioned the
• 1:08:55
  word creativity. I think that's what music is
• 1:08:58
  really about, right? It's about pushing the boundary
• 1:09:01
  with the creativity. And I think creativity, it
• 1:09:06
  definitely has something to do with like moving your fingers
• 1:09:09
  and stuff like that. But think about the genre of
• 1:09:12
  rock'n'roll and how much has changed in the last 70 years or,
• 1:09:17
  you know, 70 years, probably going back to the 50s, you know,
• 1:09:20
  from the, the time that The Beatles came to now.
• 1:09:24
  I mean, we've gone through so many different phases of
• 1:09:28
  rock'n'roll. Would AI be able to drive
• 1:09:32
  different phases? Think about like R&B or rap
• 1:09:36
  music from the late 90s to now and how many phases it's gone
• 1:09:41
  through. Like would AI drive that?
• 1:09:45
  I, I don't know. I don't think so.
• 1:09:46
  And I look at like output that I mostly see from AI.
• 1:09:49
  I'm like, it's, it's it's like what you could do with a great
• 1:09:54
  calculator like you, you take the creativity and you can make
• 1:09:57
  the calculator do what you want to do, but it doesn't create
• 1:10:02
  something that's like, wow, you will.
• 1:10:04
  Do more of the same. I think that's what you're
• 1:10:06
  saying it's going to be doing more of the same of what's
• 1:10:09
  exposed the AI is learning about that and I think we're going to
• 1:10:12
  be missing the big revolutions that happen in music right.
• 1:10:15
  So when you have like pear metal and then there's grunge, right,
• 1:10:18
  those big, this big rupture type of things, I think the AI will
• 1:10:22
  and. There will have to program.
• 1:10:24
  OK, now great. Now a revolution.
• 1:10:26
  I don't know. Is it possible?
• 1:10:29
  Right. Well, it's going to keep
• 1:10:30
  happening. You know, there's going to be
• 1:10:32
  continue to be revolutions. I also think though, you take,
• 1:10:38
  you know, I'm a country music fan, there's a couple of artists
• 1:10:40
  who they just keep putting out hits.
• 1:10:43
  And I think to myself, they must go to somebody and like buy
• 1:10:47
  music from them. And those people must have some
• 1:10:52
  algorithm in their head, right? They know these are the themes
• 1:10:56
  that really hit and these are some characteristics of what
• 1:11:03
  makes a good song. And I think AI could learn those
• 1:11:07
  things and make continue to make good songs, but I don't think
• 1:11:11
  they would shift the genre. Yes, I think the revolutions
• 1:11:15
  are, are, are something more organic, right?
• 1:11:19
  People say, OK, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sick of this and I think it
• 1:11:22
  needs to reset, right? Can I think of resets like that,
• 1:11:27
  right? So, you know, in other areas,
• 1:11:30
  like in coding, for example, right?
• 1:11:31
  So I, I I don't know. Well, how mathematical can AI?
• 1:11:36
  How, how mathematical is music? Because at the end of the day,
• 1:11:39
  we're talking math when it comes to AI computing and things like
• 1:11:43
  that. So music.
• 1:11:43
  Is very mathematical. Four, 4 * 3 four times beats per
• 1:11:46
  minute like these are all things you can program.
• 1:11:48
  And it's, you know, Jimmy, an interesting point there about
• 1:11:51
  the themes, right? And there's plenty of artists
• 1:11:54
  who do have writers that work with them, right?
• 1:11:56
  And plenty of artists that used to be writers that they just
• 1:12:00
  decided they couldn't find one to sell their songs, they
• 1:12:01
  decided to themselves, and they become hits, right?
• 1:12:03
  Stuff like that. And so this idea of this, almost
• 1:12:06
  like this Netflix ification of music, we have this algorithm
• 1:12:10
  that we know what Henrique likes to listen to.
• 1:12:13
  So we're going to find music like that.
• 1:12:15
  Pandora was built off of this with their Music Genome project,
• 1:12:18
  right? Every algorithm you probably
• 1:12:20
  listen to, whether using Spotify or Apple is doing something like
• 1:12:22
  that to say, OK, well, this is what Jim likes to listen to.
• 1:12:24
  Here's what Jeff likes to listen to.
• 1:12:26
  And so I think there is an opportunity there that is
• 1:12:29
  somewhat of a, OK, we know that Jeff likes this and he tends to
• 1:12:33
  like these beats and or this beats per minutes and these time
• 1:12:37
  signatures and these types of instruments.
• 1:12:40
  It would stand to reason that I could create something that
• 1:12:44
  would be close enough in profile that there would be a reasonable
• 1:12:48
  guess that I would like that AI music.
• 1:12:50
  And I don't see too far off in the future where you say, you
• 1:12:53
  know, I want to give me a station based on these six or
• 1:12:56
  seven different ideas or moods. Or maybe you're even wearing a
• 1:12:59
  biometric thing that you know, your heart rate has accelerated.
• 1:13:02
  Like generate music for my, you know, my soundtrack of my life
• 1:13:06
  and all this thing is just dynamic and it's personalized to
• 1:13:08
  you. That is not impossible.
• 1:13:11
  Yeah. The question is, you know what I
• 1:13:13
  think will get people to really do that as if there's a profit
• 1:13:18
  motive. I think that what what you just
• 1:13:21
  mentioned there is like the the the easy money is made by oh,
• 1:13:26
  Jeff likes this thing. Let me go find all the products
• 1:13:29
  that people made and feed him those.
• 1:13:32
  And you know, more or less what Apple would wind up doing.
• 1:13:36
  I don't know. Subliminal advertising, High
• 1:13:38
  frequency. Buy Crest toothpaste.
• 1:13:40
  You know, and you don't even hear it, but it's there.
• 1:13:43
  You may want to watch the new Black Mirror show on Netflix.
• 1:13:48
  There's a new season. I have not seen it.
• 1:13:49
  Don't spoil it yet, but yes, there's a new.
• 1:13:50
  Season OK, yeah, go go and watch for the audience as well if you
• 1:13:54
  haven't yeah, it's exactly about that's what we're talking about
• 1:13:57
  right now the first episode. All right, we went back.
• 1:14:02
  We spent the last like that 10 or 15 minutes going off the deep
• 1:14:04
  end. We got crazy and weird.
• 1:14:05
  But I appreciate you humoring me.
• 1:14:07
  I just think it's interesting. Like, you know, it's like, OK,
• 1:14:09
  where's this thing going? And I don't, I don't think
• 1:14:11
  anybody knows for sure yet. So I just, I'm always curious
• 1:14:13
  for people's opinions on it. Yeah, it, it, it, it could be
• 1:14:17
  depressing if we think it about it too much.
• 1:14:20
  I said wow, it's. But hey, it could be great too
• 1:14:22
  it. It it could.
• 1:14:24
  And both. It can be both as well.
• 1:14:27
  Doesn't happen. There was a.
• 1:14:27
  There was. A Wash my dishes, I'll be happy.
• 1:14:30
  Yeah, in, in, in one another podcast called Smartless.
• 1:14:36
  I I love have you. Have you, I've seen that one.
• 1:14:38
  So it's more or less they, they had Bill Gates speaking with
• 1:14:42
  them and they asked him, OK, so all this evolutions in
• 1:14:45
  technology, right? So did you get up to a point
• 1:14:48
  where, oh, I, I regret I invented this And they said no,
• 1:14:51
  it was pretty good up to a point.
• 1:14:54
  So all the computer was good personal computers every like
• 1:15:00
  how access to technology help with education and, and, and and
• 1:15:04
  health and all this other stuff, right?
• 1:15:08
  Internet was good up to the point of social media.
• 1:15:12
  And and then he he, he, he, he basically said, yeah, that's
• 1:15:16
  where we saw, oh, wow, this is getting out of hand, right?
• 1:15:19
  When which did? Start with somewhat good
• 1:15:21
  intentions, right? Connecting family and friends
• 1:15:23
  and with that place, it's like anything else, right?
• 1:15:24
  It's. The social network, right?
• 1:15:26
  Socialize more. The hammer is good for
• 1:15:29
  construction and also for a weapon, so it's kind of like
• 1:15:33
  that. So the, the, the future, I think
• 1:15:38
  there's a very interesting date in time that started going, oh,
• 1:15:44
  there's a lot of negative and, and, and I think humanity could
• 1:15:48
  learn from from that mistake, right.
• 1:15:50
  And then perhaps to be more cautious on AI cautious and
• 1:15:55
  other things that, hey, let's keep it for good.
• 1:15:59
  Hard to say how without public sector getting more control into
• 1:16:07
  this thing which is also scary. But well, this is very good too.
• 1:16:13
  This is I'm a glass half a foot up a guy.
• 1:16:15
  Yeah, I, I'm with you. I I need to stay optimistic,
• 1:16:18
  otherwise I'll lose my mind and I'll just I'll, we'll just leave
• 1:16:21
  it here. This is this is the least
• 1:16:24
  capable any of this stuff will ever be.
• 1:16:26
  This is the least it will ever be.
• 1:16:28
  It is only going to. Get better.
• 1:16:29
  This is the dumbest it will ever be.
• 1:16:31
  Right. So it will become more capable
• 1:16:33
  over time, just like everything else.
• 1:16:34
  So OK, why don't we go to wrapped up there?
• 1:16:37
  Henrique, definitely appreciate you spending time with us as
• 1:16:39
  usual. I'm looking forward to see you
• 1:16:40
  in Berlin as we're recording this before we we hit the roads.
• 1:16:44
  And then I'll have links in our show notes for people to connect
• 1:16:47
  with you on LinkedIn and follow you if they aren't already,
• 1:16:49
  which I'd find surprising, but if you aren't, you should be.
• 1:16:53
  And then you can follow Jim and I as well on LinkedIn.
• 1:16:56
  And we're on the Internet, of course, IDC, podcast.com, do all
• 1:17:00
  those cool fun things like subscribe, share, rate, all that
• 1:17:02
  stuff that helps us out. And yeah, so we'll talk with
• 1:17:06
  everyone in the next one. We.
• 1:17:08
  Have pleasure. You've been listening to
• 1:17:12
  Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
• 1:17:16
  Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
• 1:17:20
  But in the meantime, hit the website at
• 1:17:22
  identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
• 1:17:29
  the Center.