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From Grasping to Connecting: The Evolution of Our Digital Lives · Tracking Wisdom

• 0:07
  Welcome back.
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  Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution.
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  They are for informational and entertainment purposes only.
• 0:18
  Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the tracking Wisdom podcast.
• 0:25
  Good morning, everybody.
• 0:26
  Good morning.
• 0:27
  I'm Ryan.
• 0:28
  I'm Peter.
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  Thank you for joining us.
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  We have an interesting sort of impromptu discussion here today.
• 0:36
  We were.
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  I'll just give some basic context on what drove this conversation.
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  So our hosting platform, captivate fm shameless plug.
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  But if you are interested in podcasting, I would highly recommend them and their model.
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  But they just released a new AI tool for podcasters.
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  And of course, we're not.
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  We are living in the growing age of artificial intelligence and it's weaving into our daily lives, much like in the late nineties and mid nineties with the Internet itself.
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  And one of the functions of this tool is to help with episode planning.
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  And so Peter just raised an amazing question, I think, around AI and technology in general, and how the increased exposure to technology increases or influences algorithmic thinking within the population.
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  Is that accurate?
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  Yeah.
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  You say what?
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  Frame it how it should be.
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  So, first of all, I kind of want to, like, this is, this is my, my day, one that I feel, I feel like, oh, my God, this is finally the day that I shook hands with AI.
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  Yeah.
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  Like, I've never intentionally interacted with AI.
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  That's interesting.
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  Like that I'm, yeah, like, I'm aware that I'm constantly in the contact with AI's in various forms, but this is the, the first time that I am aware of that.
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  I said, let me, you know, with you.
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  And they're like, let's sit down and use the AI.
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  You put something in.
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  I'm like, oh, it's telling me something.
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  So this is that for me.
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  So my question was that recognizing by plugging our question, like, our interest into AI, now we're contributing to this kind of global consciousness that is happening of different things, right, and dominated by cats to some extent.
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  And so at the same time, by interacting in this way, we are getting feedback.
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  I mean, the whole point of this is that AI just told us some topics that we could use or gave us some titles or something.
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  So obviously we are going to be influenced in some measure by the AI.
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  And so my question is, you know, by engaging more because we're already influenced.
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  I mean, it would be extremely naive to think we're not influenced by AI.
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  We know that we're fed content by these algorithms.
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  So, and so what I was postulating, actually what I heard someone else postulate was that I should look it up because it was a whole talk about how our way of awareness is manipulated by software.
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  Like, basically our minds are being trained by the way apps work and by the way games work, by the way content work, trained to think in a certain way.
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  It's kind of like the idea of people losing attention span because content became very readily available.
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  Not very, very readily available, but also very rapid cut.
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  Right?
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  Like television used to be.
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  No cut.
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  It was live tv, one camera, and you just, it was like watching a stage show.
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  All television was like that.
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  And then, of course, this technology and media changed, this rapid cutting of information and shift attention to start with, literally from one camera to another, that shift of perspective, but then obviously growing into this rapid shift of topics
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  from one thing to another, shaping of consciousness in that way to where, you know, we start talking about people losing attention span.
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  And so now we're in another phase of that kind of influence of technology on the way we think, which is more around the market, technology feeding itself on more views, more hits, more consumption.
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  And so the, the question is, how are we now going to be influenced as podcasters, by the way the AI works?
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  Air quotes for us, right?
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  Because, I mean, that's what we, you know, we know that.
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  And I, and I have to say, just a disclaimer, I'm not a total, like, Frankenstein, Luddite, anti AI kind of guy, but obviously these are the we, everybody should be discussing these concerns.
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  So that's what I'm trying to do.
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  And it's totally fair.
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  I think that that's.
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  I'm sorry, did you want to say more?
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  No, that was it.
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  That was it.
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  You know, it's like, how is this, that's the question is how are we potentially going to be influenced?
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  Correct.
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  Right.
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  So I agree with you, number one, that the increased prevalence of technology, and certainly technology that is less pronounced, and I'm thinking more like the behind the scenes algorithms that promote content to people and that sort of thing,
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  that there's risk or hazard there and that it's appropriate and responsible to consider that.
• 5:42
  Peter and I were talking about this off mic, and I do have some thoughts about this.
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  It's sort of close to me at the moment because I've been going through this over the past couple of weeks because I've been engaging with AI more.
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  And so I've been concerned and apprehensive about using AI.
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  What I've been incorporating it more in is the creative process.
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  And there's at least one perspective out there.
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  That eventually, maybe not now, but to some degree, there is some overlap that AI will overshadow or replace human ingenuity and creativity.
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  There's a way that people can use AI to do that, to completely circumvent the creative process and just use algorithmic production as a means of maximizing the market of attention, which is essentially what all this is about.
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  I mean, it's all about advertising.
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  That's how people make money.
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  Generally, it's either advertising or it's subscription revenue.
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  But either way, it's people engaging and staying attentive to their product.
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  And their product isn't actually the content.
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  You know, their product is either advertisements or their product is a platform by which people offer value to it and they profit off of it, essentially.
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  Point of that is there, what I'm finding is there is true value and use in using the AI specifically around like research and analysis for this kind of thing.
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  I'm not suggesting that it replaces scientific research and analysis, but for somebody, especially, you know, two guys behind a mic who are trying to find topics that are of interest that we can offer our perspective on.
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  And I think that's really where the key is here, right?
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  Is that we, I mean, we have a show without an audience.
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  You know, we can have our conversations, but our pursuit is that we have an audience who also values these discussions.
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  And that that perspective that we have, so long as we retain it, intentionally, continues to be the value.
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  And if we aren't talking about and providing our value in the context of things that people are interested in, then our value doesn't get out.
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  To your point, engaging the global consciousness.
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  And just one more thing before you start, is you had mentioned it's a positive feedback loop.
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  This was off Mike, that AI feeds us the things we want, and so we want more of the things that we get.
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  And it's this ongoing circle.
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  But one thing to consider, to be reminded of is that AI is trained on what we focus on.
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  And so we brought ourselves to this point.
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  And I think there has been some influence based off of how things are amplified or not.
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  But in general, AI will tell us that this is a hot topic because people are watching it.
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  It's not necessarily determining that you should do this so that people want it.
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  It's kind of the reverse.
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  Right.
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  So I have.
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  So now that I've had a moment to kind of sit with this question, I realize that what we are using AI, for us, I believe AI is more about connection than direction.
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  Yes, because we know that there is an audience out there.
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  However large or small it is, there is a demographic, there are people who are interested in the kinds of things that we are talking about that we want to talk about.
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  And so it's about maximizing our connection with them as opposed to, as you referenced, maximizing clicks or maximizing revenue.
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  So we've recently had this conversation where we are completely not about chasing revenue.
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  We are about developing community, which means maximizing or optimizing connection so AI can help us optimize connection.
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  And so I think that's the way we are choosing to use AI and the way we will continue to choose to engage with AI.
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  So although it is giving us suggestions, I think we are looking for suggestions about how to connect with specific listeners as opposed to how to make more money.
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  And then in addition to that, I was just thinking about how am I, how could my thought be influenced?
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  Basically the question, original question, and I looked, it only took a moment for me to think about, well, what am I doing here?
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  Why am I, why am I sitting here?
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  And the answer is, because I have a specific purpose, which has become clear to me in, only in the past year, you know, but it's clear to me it's a very much an organic inner sense of purpose that
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  I'm following with you.
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  And so I don't think that's really subject to this kind of market influence.
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  Right.
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  Because when my purpose stops being fulfilled by this activity, that is potentially that this activity that is engaging with AI, when my purpose stops being fulfilled by that, I will turn to a different activity.
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  Exactly.
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  Because I'm following my purpose at this point.
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  Exactly.
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  Which is a new place for me.
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  And, and so I think, you know, that's the big question, which is, obviously, this is a huge topic, which is how do we choose our purpose, right.
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  Are we chasing clicks?
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  Are we chasing fame?
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  Are we chasing money?
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  Revenue?
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  You know, I guess those are two the big, you know, in terms of content creators, those are two of the big things, right?
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  Fame and money.
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  And Ryan and I are talking together because we, you know, he invited me to have a podcast because he knew that the two of us do not chase fame or money.
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  Right.
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  And that's something that even before we started this, this long journey together, that was the basis of our relationship is that we knew that.
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  So I am very optimistic that we are free from some of these major hazards.
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  But, yeah, I kind of do want to.
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  I mean, this is obviously also, this is a big topic of mindfulness meditation, mindfulness in general.
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  Right.
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  It's the not, it's this the search for what in buddhist tradition is called true refuge, as opposed to finding refuge in fame, right.
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  In money, in pleasure, in, you know, these things that people typically chase.
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  And that, unfortunately, I think this is the, the hazard I was concerned about is that AI will be used to chase these things, just as it will be used to chase power and dominion over others.
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  So there's.
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  I don't think there's any specific danger to us as individuals in, in that way.
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  But in the sense that in the idea that AI enhances people's ability to chase these things, there's a hazard.
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  Just like different technologies enhance people's ability to do the wrong thing.
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  Yeah, I mean, the printing press did that, the Internet did that.
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  Like, all these things.
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  It's not the technology specifically, but people's motivations and the ability that it gives people who may have different motivations to pursue that or to be successful in doing damage.
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  And as we've talked, our purpose is not fame and fortune, but we've also mentioned that if it came about that we were recognized as, you know, a recognizable name and show that that success has value and merit because
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  it means we're connecting and we've been successful in building the community, not successful in, oh, now my name is recognizable.
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  Frankly, I'd rather it not be same.
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  And actually, that is something we both have kind of had to come to terms with, is like, if our, our goal is to connect with people and develop community around this kind of ideas and content, to do so
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  behind a veil is not going to be conducive to being able to maximize our connection, maximize the community that can be developed and I think is necessary.
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  I think this is a needed thing in the world.
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  I think that more of this kind of thing is needed.
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  You're chuckling.
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  So I'm.
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  Yeah, because it's pointing to the other topic I want.
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  So how do we.
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  Do we pause?
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  Because I have questions about how to.
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  How do we transition?
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  What's your idea?
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  Or what's the other.
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  The grasping thing, then let's talk about it.
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  So when you say, you know, we believe that this kind of content is needed, part of why we believe that is because of, I would say because of human evolution.
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  And so that's why to introduce this idea of.
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  I should have looked up the.
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  The Latin for.
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  For grasping because the.
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  The idea I wanted to say was grasping man, as opposed to homo sapiens, wise man.
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  So, so thinking about mindfulness and awakening and contacting consciousness.
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  And this goes, this goes directly to what I just referenced as chasing false refuges, right?
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  Those are all what are traditionally identified as common attachments or things that we grasp on to in our seeking for happiness.
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  And so that's what a false refuge is.
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  It's a.
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  A way in which we seek happiness, which will ultimately not be able to bring us happiness.
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  So fame, fortune, what was the other one?
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  Fame and fortune.
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  Stick with that for simplicity.
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  So I was thinking the other day about kind of mindfulness in an evolutionary context.
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  And we've talked before about the limbic system and flight.
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  Flight and kind of the evolution of anxiety.
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  That is the reason that many people turn towards mindfulness meditation.
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  So we've talked about kind of the evolution of the brain in that context.
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  And what I was thinking about was how we've literally evolved as an organism of manipulation, with organs of manipulation as being one of our primary features.
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  The opposable thumb, the hand, whose purpose and strength in evolutionary physics, fitness, is enabling our organism to manipulate our world.
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  And so obviously it works in conjunction with our thinking sapient brain.
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  But without the ability to grasp, without the ability to grasp physically, our ability to grasp intellectually wouldn't be very effective.
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  And so I'm sure there's a lot of theory and conjecture about the interrelatedness of the two, right, how intelligence influenced manipulation and how manipulation influenced intelligence.
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  But this also goes to our recurring theme of left brain, right brain condition, non conditioned experience that we've literally evolved to manipulate our environment and to grasp things.
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  And now we're struggling with our addiction to, or our mindset being totally locked into manipulating our environment and grasping things.
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  And how now we have the opportunity to use our minds now in an evolutionary timeframe because of the great teachers of several thousand years of what I guess, civilization, right?
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  I mean, the rise of agriculture, civilization in terms of the now no longer having to use our hands just to survive and our minds just to survive, but to actually develop culture by choice.
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  But as we develop that, we.
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  And this kind of ties into Ian McGilchrist's thesis of left brain, right brain, that his thesis is that western civilization chose to place all emphasis on left brain function, on rational approach to things.
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  In a similar way, I'm positing that we choose to emphasize manipulation because that's what has worked for us evolutionarily, not being aware that we're moving beyond.
• 18:36
  Well, I think we've already moved far beyond the point where that constitutes fitness.
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  It has become an unfit way of interacting with our world, as evidenced by climate change, as evidenced by inability to control violence, inability to control conflict, which are all things that are outgrowths of the grasping attitude.
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  And so I guess what I want to do is repeat the call.
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  I mean, it's not new, right?
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  I'm going to repeat the sounding the call that it's, it's time to shift our emphasis and to focus on new tools of, not tools of manipulation, but tools of, as we were just saying, tools of connection, tools of
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  relationship.
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  And I choosing to reshape the way we interact with our world as organisms, that we're not using our extremely evolutionarily fit brain and extremely evolutionary fit, evolutionarily fit hands in the way that they originally involved to be used.
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  We need to hack ourselves.
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  That's interesting.
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  That just came to me.
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  It's like, oh, it's time for us to hack our organism.
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  Yeah.
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  Like, yeah, these hands are not you.
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  These hands were not, well, that's, that's controversial, right?
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  Because people would say our hands did evolve to care that, um, okay, so I'm going to report out.
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  What's happening is that I'm, I'm experiencing this upwelling of emotion, which for me, is very characteristic of, um, kind of sinking into fundamental well being, which is an ongoing topic for us.
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  And it has kind of become my commitment always to report out, because it happens quite frequently for me in these conversations.
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  And I think that's a unique value or a unique contribution that I make to content creation, is that I'm willing and able to report out, like, oh, shit, this is actually happening to me right now while I'm talking
• 20:45
  to you.
• 20:45
  Um, so anyway, that our hands, you know, there is, there is a position that we actually evolved to take care of each other, that we didn't start to become human beings, that the first human was, uh, the first
• 21:02
  human fossil was the one that had the healed leg, the healed fracture, because that was, you know, the evidence of individuals taking care of each other, taking care of the wounded, the altruistic impulse, becoming functional, and so, and
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  so, yeah, I'd say it's a matter of attention.
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  It's a matter of how we choose to direct our attention.
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  In other words, do we perceive that we are very good at killing and destroying and competing, or do we perceive that we're very good at giving care and creating connection and forming communities and living together for common purpose?
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  And I think that our culture has chosen to emphasize the former over the latter, and that there are portions of our culture that try to go the other way.
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  Which brings us back to kind of the, the whole, you know, birth of the podcast, which is to say, yeah, these, you know, the institutions that do that are called religions.
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  And they developed out of these very, very positive experiences and impulses.
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  But then became co opted by these other impulses of survival and growth and expansion.
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  And often got perverted into serving those other purposes rather than serving the original benign intent.
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  Benevolent, even.
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  Benevolent?
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  Yeah, altruistic.
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  I mean, they all formed around experiences of people who.
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  Very, very positive.
• 22:48
  Well, I'm very positive.
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  I would say ultimate.
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  You can't form a religion unless you've had, I think, an ultimate experience, or at least appear.
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  You can't form a religion.
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  You can't form a legitimate religion.
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  But I mean, I think, and that's been our thesis, is that all religions form around real, ultimate.
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  Real experiences that are ultimate human experiences had by human beings who then have the impulse to share them.
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  And the difficulty is in sharing them.
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  Because you're in this.
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  You find yourself in this context of grasping.
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  And now you're trying to share this other kind of experience.
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  Wow.
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  I'm not sure whether I'm just running out of steam.
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  Or whether I've said what I wanted to say.
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  I can.
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  Yes, pick something up.
• 23:39
  Pick up on that.
• 23:40
  So that was really interesting, all that information you shared.
• 23:43
  I'm not familiar with a lot of that.
• 23:46
  So some interesting context, I think, as far as where we are now, we globally, socially.
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  So I guess going back to, you know, the tool, the tool, the Internet, the tool, the printing press, the tool, the hand, the tool, the manipulating thinking brain isn't the problem.
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  The problem has developed in motivations and usage of the tool.
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  And in what you said.
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  As far as there's portions of current life proportions.
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  A demographic of people who understand the need.
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  Actually think that the vast majority of people understand the need.
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  But don't understand what the implications of that really are.
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  In part due to addictions to the current state of affairs.
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  That has been manipulated for the purposes of attention and marketing and commerce.
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  I think the demographic of people who share our ideal is growing.
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  I think we are at a point.
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  And in fact, it often takes kind of getting to that precipice.
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  To motivate people to really understand the importance of making a different choice.
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  Or using a tools in a way that are productive towards communal.
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  I don't want to say communal, but the unification.
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  The unification of people that it's not about winning.
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  And so I guess my thought at the moment and my.
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  What I see and what I hope and what I think has been part of my motivation to want to be part of this project.
• 25:19
  And I think probably yours is that there seems to be a bit of a pendulum swing for us in our life.
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  It seems like this has just been getting worse and worse and worse, and for a number of hundreds of years, it certainly has, and maybe even longer.
• 25:31
  But there seems to be a glimmer that things are.
• 25:33
  The pendulum may be swinging the other way, and the tools that are available right now are hugely powerful for connection.
• 25:39
  That was in part why they were developed.
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  And unfortunately, they were co opted by motivations that weren't as altruistic.
• 25:47
  I was gonna say porn.
• 25:50
  Well, there is a whole other thing on that, but the breadth of impact that the tools we have at our disposal right now have is ridiculous, really.
• 26:02
  Like, the ability for people to connect is readily available.
• 26:07
  We just need a growing demographic of people, a growing community of people who prefer this, want to use the tools for this, for this kind of thing, for sharing.
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  And I want to be part of that.
• 26:22
  And I think that it's interesting, number one, that while AI didn't give us that idea, the conversation around AI led us to that idea.
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  Just something interesting to note.
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  And the idea that we could potentially be getting ideas, content, ideas generated from data obtained and analyzed by AI doesn't mean we have to do them.
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  It presents us with some options.
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  And if that option resonates with us and we feel like there's some of our value that we bring to the table to offer and engage conversation with the community and with our audience, then we can use that.
• 27:05
  And that's powerful.
• 27:06
  But if it's using it for specifically trying to analyze the most effective way of, I mean, clickbait is one of those things, and Clickbait's one of those really difficult.
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  It's not a black and white thing, right?
• 27:19
  Because people generally, there are lots of creators who have a passion about what they do and have to use clickbait because people aren't clicking their stuff.
• 27:30
  Right.
• 27:30
  So it's one of those things that's really a catch 22 where I think that call is for people I included to give content a chance, even if the thumbnail isn't the most attractive or the title isn't the most
• 27:44
  interesting.
• 27:45
  Okay.
• 27:46
  Because that was an upsetting idea of like, oh my God, are you telling me I'm going to get sucked into being involved with some kind of clickbait because.
• 27:55
  Because I've become a content creator?
• 27:57
  No, I think that clickbait comes from people who lack content, which maybe that's a.
• 28:03
  But you, but you were saying that content, legitimate content creators get compelled to use clickbait in order to compete with non legitimate content.
• 28:13
  That's true.
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  And I think that there are people who get sucked into that, and I don't want to, I want our content to be able to stand on its own.
• 28:20
  And there's ways to frame the content in a way that's accurate and enticing.
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  And I think that's, and that's also what I think the importance of the AI is, because to date, we've kind of brought to table what we have been interested in, and that's fine.
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  But this also gives us a peek and a peer into what other people are looking to find out.
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  And then that would make our content more enticing because we're actually addressing things that are common.
• 28:47
  So, yeah, two comments wanted to make.
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  One, we are not by any means a lone voice in the wilderness.
• 28:55
  No, I mean, that's something that is very wonderful.
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  It's surprising how big that it is.
• 29:02
  Really encouraging how large the, what do you call this space is, how active this space of consciousness, awareness, awakening is.
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  And at the same time, I'm thinking back at my, you know, what the algorithm sends me and some of these great creators on YouTube and some of their thumbnails that I'm thinking about that are kind of like weird
• 29:31
  and flashy and clickbaity, because they are, they are still needing to compete for eyeballs.
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  So.
• 29:41
  Yeah.
• 29:41
  Anyway, but I think.
• 29:43
  I think the bottom line is to come to AI with purpose, with a very firm grounding and purpose.
• 29:51
  And now I feel comfortable, I mean, I'm glad we had this conversation because I do feel very comfortable with that, because what we choose to accept, I mean, AI generates a whole bunch of suggestions, but we make a
• 30:05
  choice to use the suggestion or to not use a suggestion.
• 30:09
  Oh, let's just do something, because we want to do it.
• 30:12
  And that choice is always going to be most deeply influenced by our purpose, which is simply never going to be finance.
• 30:22
  Although it would be nice to have some financial.
• 30:26
  I don't know what.
• 30:27
  Yeah, but the sustainability.
• 30:29
  The sustainability and, and the ability to invest in studio, well, invest in the content and the community.
• 30:41
  It's not about buying a mansion.
• 30:44
  Right.
• 30:44
  It's about being able to reinvest into the show, reinvest into the community, reinvest into value streams that meet the needs of that community.
• 30:55
  And those value streams are not for fame and riches, but to continue to enrich the cult, the community that we're trying to develop.
• 31:05
  So, yeah, we'll get there.
• 31:06
  Yeah.
• 31:06
  But I appreciate this.
• 31:07
  This is a great topic.
• 31:09
  I'm glad you brought it up.
• 31:10
  It has been on on my mind, uh, recently since I've been engaging with it more and specifically around a creative process.
• 31:19
  And I'm thinking I actually am probably going to be writing a blog post about using AI in the creative process for for my book and authorship wing here.
• 31:31
  And thanks for making the introduction to AI for me.
• 31:35
  Yeah, you're welcome.
• 31:36
  Thank you.
• 31:36
  Captivate for Captivate Spark.
• 31:40
  Well, thank you all again for listening and we appreciate your feedback.
• 31:45
  Let us know what you think about AI and how it interacts with culture and creativity, and we look forward to hearing from you.
• 31:53
  We'll talk to you next time.
• 32:01
  Thank you for listening to the tracking Wisdom podcast.
• 32:04
  Join us next time as we continue the discussion.
• 32:07
  Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, and visit www.
• 32:12
  Dot Eth dash studio.com for more information and content.