Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Elon Eyes Hyperliquid🚀Coinshares CEO INTERVIEW

Transcript

Elon Eyes Hyperliquid🚀Coinshares CEO INTERVIEW · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Big moves in the market today, and one is all
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: around the institutional play. You've got ice and hyperliquid playing
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: into this. We are going to get into all of
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: that today, so you don't want to miss it. Before
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: we do that, I want to thank our sponsor. That's
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• 0:44
  Speaker 1: that you should be doing to set yourself up for success.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Let's get into it today. I want to start with
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: this first before we bring our guest on. And this,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: of course, was news. You had the eyes, the owner
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: of the New York Stock Exchange, now are joining forces
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: with 24-7 perpetual futures operator known as Hyperliquid. And this
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: is something we've been anticipating for a while, and it
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: is now coming true. And when you look at this
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: right here, this just shows you the extent of the
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: connection and also maybe the intent of where this is
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: heading as you see the NYSE joining forces with with
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: TradeXYZ coming on now. So this all plays into one
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: thesis that we've talked about here on the show quite
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: a bit, and that is the institutional nature of how
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: blockchain and, in general, tokenized assets are going to be moving,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: and that is what's happening right now. And there's more
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: news on this. You've got Elon out there now tweeting
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: on this, and I'll show you something on the chart
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: that is interesting about hype that you need to pay
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: attention to. First of all, he retweeted something from Stan Druckenmiller,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: who has not been very active on X, and then
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden he is, and then boom, you've
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: got Musk, of course, dropping in. And what he's talking about,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: of course, is the trade XYZ as the partner with ICE.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: So when you look at that along with what's going
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: on with the chart, and I'll show you this right here,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: this is the chart of hyperliquid. That $ 100 high could
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: be a psychological... mode that people are going to be
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: paying attention to. And remember, right now, the market is very,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: very normal. You know, I should say, you know, it's sideways.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Everybody's looking kind of for that next bid. And I
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: think this might be an interesting play because all of
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: this activity that's happening right here, where we saw moving
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: from 81 to 95, this all occurred pre-Elon tweet. Now,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that's going to have an indicator
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: on this, but Pay attention to what's going on with
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Hyperliquid right now. Part of this, of course, gets into
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: what's happening with Terry Duffy. And of course, I've got
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: to play a clip that came in from Ripple Swell.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: And this is Terry Duffy addressing what's going on in
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the markets and really this transition of a next generation finance.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Take a look.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: Probably the biggest hotspot for you, it seems.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Is perpetual futures.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: That's a hotspot.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Why are you so against them?
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: We got 12 minutes. You don't have enough time. I
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: will get into it, though, real quick. So it is
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: a highly leveraged product strictly for the speculator. Bitcoin went
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: from $ 118, 000 to $ 80, 000. And you go, Jesus Christ, the
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: CFTC said it's okay.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: You know, of course CME would be frustrated about this.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: This is a big competitive threat.
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: You know, is this taped? That's such bullshit.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's such bullshit. A competitive threat.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: I'm not in that business. So where's the competition at?
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: You did add XRP futures and.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: Options last year.
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: The chairman and CEO of CME Group.
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Well, Dave.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: You see, that, of course, was the issue raging as well.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: And I think the point behind all of this is
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: that you're dealing with a transition within the market. So
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: I want to bring in our guest because he is
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: now transitioning as well. And that is Jean-Marie Mognetti, who
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: is the CEO and co-founder over at CoinShares. How are you, Jean-Marie?
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Hi, Paul. I'm very well, thank you.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Nice to see you again.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: So listen. Nice to see you.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of things happening right now in the markets.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: And it seems as though there is a transition from
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: this next generation finance group, and the collision that is
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: happening with the old world finance group. What do you
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: think about this? Do you think this is just natural
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: evolution of how technology and finance are going to come together?
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm not going to be as colorful as Terry, obviously.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: And Terry is his own animal and a Wall Street legend.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: So we need to leave it where it is. You know,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: there is always this change of the guard. If you
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: remember back in the A day of FTX, Sam was
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: going on CNBC saying how he will replace the CME
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: and buy Goldman Sachs. It was the big statement he
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: was making. We know what happened after that. There's always
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: been a friction between new world and old world, between
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: where crypto is coming from and where it is going.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: What you're really saying is like, you know, a resistance
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: effectively from traditional finance. You know, the Delay for Clarity
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Act is also kind of an illustration of how the
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: bank has been delaying the game to give them time
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: to catch up or if they can. And so all
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: that stuff is part of the same agenda. It's like,
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: how do we keep the control of what is happening
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: and narratives? So we're just really in this transformative era.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: You have new force emerging. You talk about Swell. Ripple
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: is definitely one of these new force emerging. They have
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: a very, very strong balance sheet to keep going and
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: transforming how finance is done. But you get all those things, Hyperliquid,
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Jeff did a fantastic presentation on the side of Token
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: 2049 in Singapore, explaining the roadmap of Hyperliquid in general,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: and that was very inspiring. And you can see where
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: it is going. A lot of companies are going to stay,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: I would say, private for longer. And we need to
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: get a way to address this bright market. Perpetual are
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: a very phenomenal source of liquidity and a source of funding.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: At the same time, they are not an as pure
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: investment and long-term investment tool as would be traditional equity.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: You know, Terry points about, you know, speculator versus investors
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: is absolutely well made. But, you know, it's in the
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: absence of the perfect solution. It is a better outcome. And,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: you know, the same way GBTC wasn't the perfect product
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: to invest in Bitcoin in the early days in the U.S.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: It was the only product available in the U.S. So,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: you know, we never get the perfect solution day one.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: The solution keep evolving. And today, perpetual is what is
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: available on chain. you know, there is nothing preventing it
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: to be in couple of years to have native token
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: issue or native equity issue on chain. And so all
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: this kind of stuff can keep transforming.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I think you hit it on the head and
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: that is the transformation because the early stages are usually
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: somewhat wild west. And that's kind of where we are
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: right now. I mean, the convergence between these two particular
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: industries and technology, as well as an industry that is
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: using an old technology that is somewhat outdated, and now
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: transitioning completely dead on with that. So this brings me
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: to a point and a clip, because now you have
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: a major entity like Google who's coming in and doing
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: custody services. And this changes the dynamic quickly. I want
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: to play a quick clip of Terry Duffy talking about this.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Take a look. You know, at the same time, you've
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: also said that CME is exploring a token.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Of its own.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: We are.
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: For us to have our own stablecoin... allows clients that
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: want to trade more just of the crypto products to
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: allow them to move that because they have that inventory
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: anyway in their accounts back and forth on weekends, even
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: to trade non-crypto products. Right now, it's going to be
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: on a central network with my partner at Google, and
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: a lot of people in the decentralized world don't like that,
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: and I understand that. So I think having a centralized
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: tokenized cash with my partner at Google is a good thing,
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: but I also believe offering other forms of online How
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: to manage margin is also important. That's why I'm creating
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: my own stablecoin. You know, whether it's on Canton's network
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: or somebody else, that's the way we're going to do it.
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: The banks seem to like the Canton network, so we
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: will participate in that as well.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: All right, so you see the strategy being built there
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: by traditional finance. And if you look at Sundar Pichai's
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: tweet right here, this was aligning the idea of custody
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: and essentially putting Google in the crypto game. And they
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: seem to be aligned with this for quite some time
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: because they've kind of gone from Gemini 4 Argon now
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: to this new Gemini 4 Carbon, which, of course, could
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: get into this whole security mechanism of Google being the
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: trusted place for custody. What do you think about what
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Google is doing here and to the remarks that Terry had?
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Well, just starting with the remark of Terry, you know,
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: there's so many wrong things in what he says, I
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: don't know where to start, but like... A centralized token
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: is kind of the screaming one. It doesn't make any sense.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: anyway um the google stuff is an interesting part however
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: because google has always been this kind of uh um
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: ambivalent uh place when it comes to digital asset in
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: general um google has a very early on initiative about
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: digital asset internally uh and was kind of like the
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: kind of child without parents because Larry and Sergey both,
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: one was hating it and the other one was loving it.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: So there was kind of this kind of ambivalence within
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: Google about what to do with digital asset. And I
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: think post Libra and the entire kind of activity around
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Libra and the deposition of Devin Marcus and all this
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: kind of stuff which happened when Facebook paused the Libra program,
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: kind of Google said, okay, we're going to stay a
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: little bit away from digital assets for the time being. Now,
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: With the acceleration of AI, you can't really stay away
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: too long of digital asset because unfortunately, digital asset is
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: the kind of native currency of AI. It's like you're
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: not going to be able to get an agent checking
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: in for a bank account at JP Morgan. And we
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: already saw that JP Morgan shut down Muse and all
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: the other agent access. The bank doesn't really want the
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: AI agent to access the bank, so the AI agent
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: is going to need to get something else to use.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Google understands that very well. Google understands probably that they
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: need to have a way to manage secrets more than
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: effectively just manage tokens because at the end of the day,
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: how do you manage private keys and private keys securely?
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And so basically how do you manage secret? And so
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: this real announcement is really kind of a foray into
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: this kind of a direction now. At the same time,
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: I tell you, having people with the R & D
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: capacity of Google starting to look a bit more into,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: I would say, custody at large and how to secure
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: private key and how to effectively make the private key
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: quantum resistance is also welcome because it's also, you know,
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: the entire crypto community has been working on that for
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: a long time. But there's been a debate which keeps
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: coming back. So having big players stepping in as well
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: to put some R & D resources weight behind it
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: is going in the right direction and can only be
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: a positive development.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I think when you look at the business models
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: that Google has been involved in, one that I still
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: argue that is going to fade away is going to
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: be search and possibly even some of the ad mechanisms
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: that are going to be tied to that simply because
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: of the AI tools. Granted, that still may fall back
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: into Google's portfolio, but they've got so many competitors now
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: where when it comes to search, it's Google or nobody.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: So this idea of them becoming a custody and possibly
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: becoming a gatekeeper here for real-world assets, tokenized treasuries, situations
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about, even with custodying major
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: assets like Bitcoin or others, are going to be very,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: very intriguing, especially if they integrate to Wall Street. Let
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: me ask you something. Let's go into your company with CoinShares.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: You guys made a major move here recently. You announced
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: the approval of liquidation of the altcoin ETFs. But yet
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: you kept the Bitcoin ETF here in the US. Explain
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: the strategy that you're doing right now.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Look, it's a it's a very simple thing. You know,
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: there's not many company in crypto which makes money, you know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: say for the exchanges and Coinshare is fortunate to be
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: making money. And so the reason why we're making money
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: was not being VC backed or being kind of like
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: swimming in third party investor cash. is because we have
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: been having a very disciplined approach to our cost base
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: over our lifetime. And there is no reason to keep
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: running product which doesn't make money for the company or
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: doesn't generate any margin. The market is changing extremely quickly.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: The US market has been commoditizing extremely fast. faster than
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: anywhere in the world and concierge doesn't have the distribution
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: network that it is required to go compete with a
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: fidelity or black rock and we're not even competing with
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: them because it will be an arrogant statement so we're
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: not in this kind of game we're not in this
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: kind of competition landmark on a 5 or 20 basis
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: point product so we just want to bring to our
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: customer high value added product and you know we started
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: doing etf in europe in 2014 so In 2026, we
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: have to do something else and keep moving forward. And
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: so we want to keep making the frontier investable. We
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: want to keep being able to push a narrative forward.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: And so there's stuff we're going to shut down, which
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: are effectively not profitable anymore or less profitable, and stuff
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: we're going to keep investing in. And that's part of
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: our overall strategy. So there is nothing wrong in shutting
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: down some product. It's shutting down and launching new stuff.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: It's like tradable assets at the end of the day.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: So we're just redeploying capacity where we can and saving
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: capacity where we need to.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: So you withdrew the US spot ETF filings. This was XRP, Solana, Litecoin,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: all this ahead of the NASDAQ listing. And to your point,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: products do rotate in and out. I agree with you
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: in the sense that if the product's not making money,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: you just have to kind of reassess. You made an
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: interesting statement.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: But Paul, to your point, I think people rotate even
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: faster than ever.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Exactly, yes.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Because today, if you look at the entire narrative of
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: this year, People were in gold in Q4 last year,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: and then they moved to oil with the conflict, and
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: now they're moving back to AI and HPC in Q3.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: How do you keep up? And so it keeps moving
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: all the time. And if you look at the speed
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: of rotation happening right now, it has never been that brutal. And, well,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: how do you keep up? That's where you see all
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: this RWA become very interesting because the RWA are one
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: expression which allow people to keep up effectively.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I would agree with that. And I think the
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: point you're getting at is that there is a shift underway.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: But you did say something that was, I think, important
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: for the audience to understand, and that is the commoditization
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: that's happening right now. And it is happening very quickly.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: How far do you think we are? Do you feel
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: like we may see these altcoin ETFs go away entirely?
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Or what is your vision of where these head in
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: the U.S. markets?
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: No, you know, people will still have offering. Some people
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: can afford to, you know, that's not our philosophy to
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: do something for free or to do something for not to,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: you know, we want to product service, which are adding
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: value for our customer and for our shareholder. But, you know,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: some people don't have this dependency.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: So.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: They will keep running product. You get even some ETF
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: product in the US on the Bitcoin side, which have
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: been for free for a very long time. So not
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: everybody is motivated by producing a service for a fee.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: We are mercantile in that sense that we want to
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: be able to provide a quality service for a fee.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: We will always bring value to our customer. And so
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: that's not adding value. So we stepping out effectively of
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: this very small, effectively subset of the market to be
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: able to focus on bigger opportunity. Now, does that mean
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: everybody will follow our lead? Not at all. Some people
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: think it's, you need to get a wider area of
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: product on the shelf to effectively hope to be able
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: to catch people's attention. So it really depends how people
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: think about it and how they think about their very
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: own strategy. We have always had a very EBITDA-focused strategy,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: so that's just our own narrative around that. But at
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: the same time, we launched Zcash yesterday in Europe. Exactly.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: So it's not like we are stopping stuff to not
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: continue doing stuff. It's like it's permanent in and out about, okay,
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: that's not working enough to justify to be on the shelf.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Let's remove it to make more space on the shelf
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: for something of a higher quality, effectively.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Well, let's get into that in terms of the alternative markets,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: because this is something that we see. Obviously, our channel
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: is viewed in 180 countries worldwide. Only about 45% of
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: our audience comes from the U.S. The rest is global.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: When you look at, I've got a clip actually of
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Johan over at Robinhood, and he's talking about Asia. And
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I want to get your opinion on this after you
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: watch this clip.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Here we go.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: 70% of that trading is happening after hours, after the
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: exchange hours. We see a lot of usage in Asia.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: Like I was saying, it's very difficult for them to
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: trade during our market hours. It's also very difficult for
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: them to access this type of product without paying a
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: lot of fees. And so we think tokenization changed all
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: of that.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: All right. So Johan, obviously director, I guess, of digital
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: assets over at Robinhood, but he's pointing at Asia. And
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: this is a market that we've looked at for quite
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: a while as potentially being one of the winners. When
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: you think about Asia right now, I know you guys
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: are lockstep with the EU, but what do you think
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: about the growth of blockchain integration in Asia?
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Well, blockchain integration in Asia is working extremely well because
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: the Asian community happened to trade much more and love
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: trading effectively. So the more you can give them effectively
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: underlying to trade, which on top of it happened to
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: be volatile, the more there is an appetite for it.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: And if you remember, the BitMEX success was really, really
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: focused on Southeast Asia with a massive demand from South Korea.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: So the tokenization game and the access to effectively token
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: which can or cannot be leveraged depending on the one
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: we're talking about is a natural appeal for Southeast Asia.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So what Johan is talking about, and we've been talking
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: in the past a few times about it, is absolutely correct.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: There is an incremental demand coming from Asia for trading product,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: which you know in the u.s market stopped trading or
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: if they continue they continue on a on a different
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: kind of exchanges and so uh the fact to be
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: able to tokenize it is a way for them to
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: distribute and to turbocharge distribution in a much more wider
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: way even in countries where they don't have a securities
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: license because right now this is not falling under securities
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: though to tokenize stock so it's kind of very interesting
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: how stuff are happening and Robinhood has a very different
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: approach to many about what they do here because what
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: they tokenize is share of an SPV. They're not really
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: tokenizing stock. They're tokenizing share of an SPV. So it's
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: a slightly different approach and just taking the shares and
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: making a representation of it on chain. It's like the
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: SPV share, which hasn't distributed. So the technicality behind it
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: is very interesting and giving them the capacity to go
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: effectively beyond the borders and beyond the frontier of their
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: natural environment.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: Well, and you could also kind of follow the granules
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: here because you've got Backpack, SK Securities, this is SK Onyx,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: partnering up. This is going to be expanding their Korean
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: equity side. So there's a lot of strategic moves being
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: made right now. And it's intriguing to me because you
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: are seeing a lot of this in South Korea, what
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: we'll see in Hong Kong, obviously Singapore, which has been
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: kind of a mecca for blockchain in general. Is there
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: any plan for coin shares to kind of expand into
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: those markets?
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Let me answer that in two steps, Paul. First, to
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: go back to your point, because you're talking about the
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: tokenization happening in South Korea and the backpack example. Let's
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: not forget that the 2X and 3X ETF market, and
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: I would say the leveraged ETF market, in the U.S.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: is already fueled massively by the Asian market. And people
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: think it's just a U.S. domestic market. It is not.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: It is massively fueled by... Asia market and you can
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: see some ETF provider, which are not the big guys,
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: which are kind of second, third type of ETF markets,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: who are kind of big player in the thematic and
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: in the leverage side, which are opening offices in Seoul
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: or opening offices in Hong Kong, just to be closer
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: effectively to the market or to one of the demand
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: for this kind of market. So what's happening with the
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: tokenization is just a continuation of what we have seen
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: already happening in the ETF market. When it comes to Coinshare,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: which was your second part of the question, sorry, let
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: me just finish. When it comes to Coinshare, look, we
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: are a European business. We always had the ambition to
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: be a global franchise. That's why we listed the company
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: in the US on NASDAQ main market. And so, yes,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: one day, if we have the right business case, there
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: will be an expression of Coinshare in Asia. But for that,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: we need the right business case.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about something in the EU, and that
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: is the central bank chief, Kristen Lagarde, is now stepping down.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: This is nine months early. This is a big deal
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: for Europe because she is somewhat anti-blockchain for sure. She's
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: very bullish for stable coins, or should I say maybe
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: a CBDC angle. What does this do for you guys?
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: And what do you think this does for the broader
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: crypto community in Europe right now?
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Look, Kristen is a formidable lawyer. She was a formidable
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: French minister as well. She did the IMF job, which
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: has been pretty good, actually, and a pretty good representation there. Now,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: she happened to be not exactly convinced about blockchain in general,
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: which is a bit of a downfall. I don't think
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: anything she does right now has anything to do with
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: the international agenda she's having. It has more to do
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: with the political situation happening in France. And I will
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: not be surprised to hear that Christine is.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, going to make herself a candidate for the French
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: presidential election. Uh, uh, because, uh, there seems to be
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: nobody from the original candidate roster who can pretend to
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: be saving the country. So maybe Christine is coming to
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: rescue the country.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: That's an interesting angle that, yeah, well with what's going
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: on with France, for sure. Uh, AI powered ETFs incoming.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: We've got a lot of people looking at what's going
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: on with virtuals. Uh, they've just, of course, integrated now
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the ETFs. If you kind of compare not only that, but, uh,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: the pro of how they're trading things such as the
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: fed meeting yesterday this is their you know their app
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: butler inside of the uh the platform but what do
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: you think about this do you think we're going to
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: see more ai powered trading especially in the etf side
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: or do you think it's going to go more on
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: the open market it's.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: A it's a sense of history uh you know it's
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: just if you look at the robo advisory uh which
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: has been a very very um kind of taking away
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: some of the IRA job away with people kind of
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: like delegating the power to trade to a robot for
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: the last five or six years. It has get a
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: significant amount of success. I can't tell you how many
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: people in my company has their own AI wealth advisor
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: who tells them exactly how to run, what to trade,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: what not to trade, and tells them to rotate or
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: not to rotate. And that goes from a marketing guy
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: to effectively anybody. So it's like this is kind of
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: a very transversal trend. It impacts a wide demographic. It
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: impacts a wide community. And everybody is trying to figure
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: out how they can make more money by delegating power
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: to someone they can trust. And for some reason, there
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: is more trust put in an AI agent than in
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: your banker. So that tells you everything there is to
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: know about the state of people's mindset. And, you know,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: it puts back the control, you know, like the self-directed
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: market is a market which is growing with the advent
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: of people like a company like Robinhood and a company like...
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: eToro and another company which has been growing quite fast,
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: the next phase of that is how do you replace
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: effectively the advisory side by something which is of better quality?
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: There is no secret that the advisory has been not
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: exactly a phenomenal successful tool, especially if you are not
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: part of the affluent who have access to sophisticated or very,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: very sophisticated solutions. So if you're just a retail investor
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: and you want to get access to a bit more
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: knowledge and a bit more capacity to have a better
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: return on your investment, the agent proposal is very appealing.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: So the success of that is absolutely not surprising.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: It isn't surprising. I think we're going to see more
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: of it. And the likelihood is this is going to
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: start to trend into some other areas of finance for sure.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: So we will have you back, Jean-Marie, to talk about
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: that as things start to progress. Thank you so much
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: for coming in today. We appreciate it.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Paul.
• 26:40
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• 26:42
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• 26:45
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