Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Interview Only w/ Thomas Nelson - The “Packers Model” For Local Development?

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Interview Only w/ Thomas Nelson - The “Packers Model” For Local Development? · The Chuck ToddCast

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Speaker 1: And then call chapter today at 980-734-4200. Three, nine, eight, five. Well,
2:17
Speaker 1: joining me now is somebody who reached out to me
2:21
Speaker 1: after we did our big Green Bay Packers dynastic profile.
2:25
Speaker 1: It's the author of a book called The People's History
2:28
Speaker 1: of the Green Bay Packers, The Green and Gold Standard
2:30
Speaker 1: by Thomas And Thomas is unique here. He's been an
2:34
Speaker 1: author of a couple of books, but he's also served
2:36
Speaker 1: in politics. He served in elective office as well. And
2:41
Speaker 1: this is an opportunity to have the conversation about the
2:43
Speaker 1: Packers that's beyond sports politics. And it's and I've hinted
2:48
Speaker 1: at Thomas here, but in sort of many of you
2:51
Speaker 1: know that that as I've talked about, how do we
2:54
Speaker 1: rebuild local news? I'm skeptical of going all things nonprofit,
2:58
Speaker 1: but there's something about the way the Packer structure works
3:01
Speaker 1: for sports that might apply to a lot of other
3:04
Speaker 1: important things that are important to communities that don't necessarily
3:09
Speaker 1: that you don't necessarily want owned by hedge funds. So
3:12
Speaker 1: with that, Mr. Nelson joins me now. Thomas, first of all,
3:14
Speaker 1: it's nice to meet you.
3:16
Speaker 2: Great. Good to meet you too. This is wonderful. Thanks
3:18
Speaker 2: for having me on.
3:19
Speaker 1: So look, tell me how you ended up writing a
3:23
Speaker 1: book about the Green Bay Packers.
3:25
Speaker 2: Well, as a Packers fan, and having written a couple
3:28
Speaker 2: other books, I actually approached this, given my background in politics,
3:33
Speaker 2: a lot along the lines that you just mentioned, Chuck,
3:37
Speaker 2: about using the Packers model for other aspects of industry,
3:41
Speaker 2: in your case, talking about a newsroom. I want to
3:45
Speaker 2: do the same thing, too. Why is it that there's
3:47
Speaker 2: this anomaly, not just in sports, though, but in the
3:51
Speaker 2: economy in general? And so I had pitched this idea
3:55
Speaker 2: to a few publishers. They liked it. But then there
3:58
Speaker 2: was a publisher that says, why don't you just write
3:59
Speaker 2: a history of the Green Bay Packers? I'm like, I'm
4:01
Speaker 2: not going to write a hundred books about that. And
4:04
Speaker 2: they'll say, well, yes and no. There's a lot on coaches.
4:07
Speaker 2: There's a lot on eras, but there isn't a complete
4:09
Speaker 2: art history. And so knowing just how unique the story
4:13
Speaker 2: is and how compelling, and then really how even Packer
4:17
Speaker 2: fans can't really articulate what is it that makes the
4:19
Speaker 2: Packers so neat? What is it? And so, I wanted
4:23
Speaker 2: to write a book that tried to explain that, to
4:26
Speaker 2: answer the question, what is it that makes the Packers
4:28
Speaker 2: so special?
4:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, look, it was what Jay Adande and I,
4:32
Speaker 1: who do this dynastic sports series, it is, you know, what...
4:39
Speaker 1: You couldn't have the the the Packers wouldn't be the
4:43
Speaker 1: Packers without the without their unique ownership structure, because if
4:46
Speaker 1: they didn't have that unique ownership structure, they'd probably be
4:49
Speaker 1: the Milwaukee Packers.
4:50
Speaker 2: Exactly.
4:51
Speaker 1: You know, and that is and I think that that is.
4:54
Speaker 1: And now, of course, it's become so ingrained into the
4:58
Speaker 1: history of football that now Green Bay is a tourist destination. Right.
5:02
Speaker 1: Which is the ultimate thing. But before we get to this,
5:06
Speaker 1: give me a brief history of your of politics for you.
5:09
Speaker 1: You were in the legislature. I know that you've been
5:10
Speaker 1: in county politics. Walk me through that.
5:13
Speaker 2: I was elected to the state assembly here here in
5:16
Speaker 2: Wisconsin in 2004 for three terms, served as majority leader
5:21
Speaker 2: for one term and then shortly after ran for county executive.
5:25
Speaker 2: And so for those listeners who are from states with
5:28
Speaker 2: county executives, basically a county executive is a mayor who
5:31
Speaker 2: All of the county. I've been in this post now
5:33
Speaker 2: for about 15 years.
5:35
Speaker 1: And autogamy? How do I say it? How do we
5:38
Speaker 1: say it? Autogaming. Autogaming.
5:41
Speaker 2: But you are exactly right, though, because that is the
5:43
Speaker 2: phonetic pronunciation is actually autogamy, but we all call it
5:47
Speaker 2: autogamy because here in Wisconsin, we love our long A's.
5:52
Speaker 1: Fair enough. There's a part of me that wants to
5:55
Speaker 1: go down. I've gone down a rabbit holes about, I
5:59
Speaker 1: always say that, you know, Wisconsin was ground zero for
6:01
Speaker 1: political polarization before America got polarized. Wisconsin was. I could
6:06
Speaker 1: go into it. Brown County is one of those that
6:08
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with because of what happened. But I'm not
6:12
Speaker 1: going in that direction. I want to go here with
6:14
Speaker 1: the Packers. So let's start. My cousin was telling me
6:18
Speaker 1: who does a lot of, you know, about people when
6:21
Speaker 1: they start up LLCs and they start up small businesses.
6:26
Speaker 1: sometimes don't put a lot of thought into how you
6:28
Speaker 1: want your shares split. How do shares get sold? What
6:34
Speaker 1: saved the Packers, because the Packers weren't the first football
6:37
Speaker 1: team to sell shares, but they were the one that
6:41
Speaker 1: didn't have where somebody couldn't buy it out. So what
6:45
Speaker 1: was it about the Packers corporate structure that was different
6:49
Speaker 1: from From I believe it was the team that eventually
6:52
Speaker 1: would become the New York, the Detroit Lions, for instance,
6:55
Speaker 1: where somebody just sort of bought up the shares that,
6:58
Speaker 1: you know, the team that is now the Lions isn't
7:02
Speaker 1: community owned because of their corporate structure. But Green Bay is.
7:06
Speaker 2: Right. And so, people talk about how unique it is
7:09
Speaker 2: for the Packers to have this and how they're community-owned.
7:12
Speaker 2: And it goes back to 1922. And the Packers had gone,
7:16
Speaker 2: they've had five, no, no, they've had six stock issuances.
7:20
Speaker 2: But it's the first three for which they faced an
7:22
Speaker 2: existential crisis. And so, 1922, that was their fourth season.
7:28
Speaker 2: And they were part of the NFL or the precursor
7:30
Speaker 2: to the NFL. And they were doing well. They were
7:33
Speaker 2: always a great football team because Green Bay was always
7:35
Speaker 2: a football city. And they just couldn't make a go
7:38
Speaker 2: of the finances. And it was this rain-soaked Thanksgiving Day,
7:43
Speaker 2: they had this, they had an exhibition game, and they
7:48
Speaker 2: did that to try to raise money. And once again,
7:50
Speaker 2: it rained. And they work in a play, but then
7:53
Speaker 2: a guy by the name of Andrew Turnbull, who was
7:55
Speaker 2: from the Green Bay Press Gazette, said, look, you have
7:58
Speaker 2: to play. And I will cover the visiting team's fee
8:03
Speaker 2: If you play, and then more importantly, we will put
8:05
Speaker 2: together a sustainable model to make sure that you've got
8:09
Speaker 2: the finances covered and you can continue to play. And
8:11
Speaker 2: Curly Lambeau was great. Sounds good. I mean, Curly Lambeau
8:15
Speaker 2: didn't really care how the team was owned or organized.
8:19
Speaker 2: He just wanted to play football.
8:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, at the beginning. Yeah, let's say he did care. Yeah,
8:25
Speaker 1: he did care towards the end when the board said no.
8:28
Speaker 1: But yes, at the beginning.
8:31
Speaker 2: So he just, I mean, that was just, it just
8:33
Speaker 2: turned out that that was the kind of structure that
8:36
Speaker 2: was going to work in Green Bay because it wasn't
8:38
Speaker 2: a profitable enterprise. There were, you know, small town, Green
8:43
Speaker 2: Bay was not the exception back there. In the 1920s,
8:45
Speaker 2: there were at least a dozen of these small towns
8:47
Speaker 2: around the Midwest. and New England that had teams. But
8:51
Speaker 2: they were all falling to the wayside because they couldn't
8:54
Speaker 2: make a run of it. And it was the Packers
8:56
Speaker 2: and Andrew Turnbull that had this idea. Let's have a
9:00
Speaker 2: stock issuance that wasn't going to make money. So they
9:04
Speaker 2: incorporated as a nonprofit corporation. So the other thing they
9:09
Speaker 2: did was you couldn't sell shares. And that was the
9:15
Speaker 2: unique thing. Look, I'm a shareholder. I'm sure you're a shareholder.
9:18
Speaker 2: We can't sell our shares. I mean, I guess somebody
9:21
Speaker 2: could buy the certificate that's been issued to me. I
9:24
Speaker 2: might be able to sell that on eBay or something
9:26
Speaker 2: like that. But it's not as if it gives you
9:29
Speaker 2: any rights at all or any sort of value. That
9:35
Speaker 2: was an important part of the structure early on was
9:38
Speaker 2: that you couldn't sell the shares. Right. So it was
9:41
Speaker 2: not just, there really wasn't, I mean, there really wasn't
9:45
Speaker 2: incentive to sell in the first place just because they
9:47
Speaker 2: weren't worth anything. At the time, it was going to
9:49
Speaker 2: be worth anything. Yeah, right, right. And so the important
9:52
Speaker 2: thing is they wanted to have something that was going
9:55
Speaker 2: to be an organizational structure, that it wasn't simply a
9:58
Speaker 2: volunteer basis where past the hat, which is the model
10:01
Speaker 2: they started out with, but they wanted to have this
10:04
Speaker 2: corporate structure. They wanted to have... articles of incorporation, some
10:10
Speaker 2: legal structure. There wasn't going to be an opportunity for
10:13
Speaker 2: anyone to make money off of it, but this was
10:15
Speaker 2: going to be the vehicle by which Green Bay and
10:17
Speaker 2: the city was going to come together and have a
10:20
Speaker 2: football team and have one for years to come.
10:23
Speaker 1: The thing that strikes me about this, and I think
10:26
Speaker 1: about sports owners, and I am somebody who believes that
10:33
Speaker 1: you know, the sports owner doesn't own, you know, they
10:36
Speaker 1: don't own the community. They may own the franchise, but
10:40
Speaker 1: the franchise only has value if the community buys into it.
10:44
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
10:46
Speaker 1: I don't understand why the Packers are the only franchise
10:49
Speaker 1: major league sports franchise, that it's tied itself to the
10:53
Speaker 1: community like this so that you're not held hostage by owners.
10:56
Speaker 1: You're not held hostage by private equity. Now, part of
10:59
Speaker 1: it in the NFL is the NFL banned this. They
11:02
Speaker 1: won't let another team do this ever again, which I
11:05
Speaker 1: think tells you where the owners are on this structure, right?
11:09
Speaker 1: But I'm surprised more communities haven't demanded this in exchange
11:14
Speaker 1: for taxpayer funding of a stadium, for instance.
11:17
Speaker 2: Well, they probably should have. I mean, that's obviously when
11:19
Speaker 2: you're putting, you know, I think Cleveland had put together
11:23
Speaker 2: a package of about $ 800, $ 900 million. Indiana has put
11:29
Speaker 2: up a billion dollars. There is this ridiculous package that
11:33
Speaker 2: has been put together in Buffalo. And you would think
11:36
Speaker 2: that there would be some legislators who would come together
11:40
Speaker 2: and say, wait, we can get more for this. But
11:42
Speaker 2: they haven't done that. Right. But you had mentioned something too, Chuck,
11:45
Speaker 2: about private equity. And while the Packers faced existential threats
11:51
Speaker 2: in 1922, in the early 1930s, and again in 1950,
11:55
Speaker 2: What the Packers are facing right now through the private
11:59
Speaker 2: equity rule is an existential crisis that they have never,
12:03
Speaker 2: ever faced before. And you can see when you're talking
12:07
Speaker 2: about how, where are the NFL owners on this? The
12:11
Speaker 2: NFL owners, it drives them nuts that here's this nonprofit
12:14
Speaker 2: team that is leaving billions on the table. They can't
12:17
Speaker 2: believe that no one's making money off the Packers when
12:21
Speaker 2: it is, when it would be very profitable. And so
12:24
Speaker 2: I believe the private equity rule was put in place
12:27
Speaker 2: two years ago to deal with, from an ownership standpoint,
12:31
Speaker 2: what will no doubt be guaranteed contracts. That's issue number
12:35
Speaker 2: one when the collective bargaining agreement comes up in a
12:39
Speaker 2: few years. But the Packers are now at an approximately
12:44
Speaker 2: $ 900 million disadvantage for every team in the NFL. I mean,
12:50
Speaker 2: you would have to have, you know, like 150 Luke
12:54
Speaker 2: Combs concerts or Taylor Swift concerts at Lambeau Field to
12:57
Speaker 2: make up that difference. It's only a matter of time
13:01
Speaker 2: before the Packers are going to be at the kind
13:04
Speaker 2: disadvantage that the NFL is going to have to step up,
13:07
Speaker 2: do something to make them whole, or who knows what's
13:11
Speaker 2: going to happen. So I don't think that this nonprofit
13:14
Speaker 2: community model is something that will forever, ever be the case,
13:18
Speaker 2: because I think that that is a serious issue. And
13:20
Speaker 2: while it's not getting much attention at all.
13:23
Speaker 1: Well, you bring up a good point, because you're right.
13:25
Speaker 1: They introduced this. There's a cap, right? Is it 10%?
13:28
Speaker 1: What's the cap on private equity?
13:30
Speaker 2: 10%. So it gets off to 10%. Right. But that's
13:32
Speaker 2: for now. Correct.
13:35
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting when you look at what the
13:37
Speaker 1: Big Ten... was negotiating, I believe it was with the
13:42
Speaker 1: UC system, I want to say, if I'm not mistaken,
13:46
Speaker 1: and forgive me here. But the idea was, I think
13:49
Speaker 1: that sort of public entity, I think it was the
13:53
Speaker 1: UC pension system was going to be the private equity,
13:57
Speaker 1: was going to get a piece of the Big Ten.
13:59
Speaker 1: And I guess it would have been, they would have
14:01
Speaker 1: bought into essentially Big Ten merchandising. I'm shorthanding this a
14:06
Speaker 1: little bit. So if we were to fast forward and
14:08
Speaker 1: try to figure out, all right, how would the Packers board,
14:12
Speaker 1: you know, look, they knew they had to create more revenue.
14:16
Speaker 1: So they did what they did with Lambeau Field, right?
14:19
Speaker 1: And they created Titletown and they've created a destination and
14:22
Speaker 1: they've got that beautiful hotel and they probably need to
14:24
Speaker 1: build more hotels to continue to create this. There's a
14:29
Speaker 1: part of me that thinks that Canton ought to move
14:31
Speaker 1: to Green Bank. And I might, you know, that if
14:33
Speaker 1: you're the NFL, if you want to save, if you
14:36
Speaker 1: want to add a tourist stop for the Packers, keep
14:39
Speaker 1: its nonprofit model, then, you know, frankly, the Packers, you know,
14:46
Speaker 1: are as much the foundation of the NFL as anything
14:49
Speaker 1: in professional football. You might give them the Hall of Fame.
14:53
Speaker 1: That could be a stopgap. But, you know, if they
14:57
Speaker 1: were willing to monetize the stadium and do what they
15:00
Speaker 1: did with Lambeau, My guess is they're going to be
15:04
Speaker 1: willing to figure out how to maybe peel off the merchandising,
15:07
Speaker 1: peel off something and do sell that to private equity.
15:10
Speaker 1: Is that your suspicion?
15:12
Speaker 2: Well, right now, I mean, the Packers' organizational structure is
15:16
Speaker 2: such that they're not going to be able to sell
15:20
Speaker 2: to private equity. I mean, they would have to go
15:22
Speaker 2: in and open in its articles of incorporation. Once you
15:26
Speaker 2: start doing that, you're going down a road that's only
15:29
Speaker 2: a matter of time before it's going to be for profit.
15:31
Speaker 2: So I think what the NFL has to do is
15:34
Speaker 2: they need to figure out, OK, how do we make
15:36
Speaker 2: the Packers whole? 31 of 32 teams have a $ 900
15:37
Speaker 2: million portfolio. advantage against one team, just one team. And
15:45
Speaker 2: if you think of how much these firms will charge transactions, 2%
15:51
Speaker 2: or 3% when you're selling a private equity, I mean,
15:55
Speaker 2: if you did 2% or 3% and gave that to
15:57
Speaker 2: the Packers, for example, now they're beginning to make them whole.
16:04
Speaker 1: It's also- You're asking the owners to give the Packers
16:06
Speaker 1: quite the subsidy there.
16:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but they're spending 2% or 3% when
16:10
Speaker 2: they're selling for... But look, I mean, that's how... Think
16:13
Speaker 2: of how much mileage, how many times the NFL uses
16:18
Speaker 2: the Packers for cover. The NFL is the most expensive, lucrative, richest...
16:24
Speaker 2: sports league in the world. And they always go back, well,
16:27
Speaker 2: not all like that. Here it is, tiny Green Bay,
16:30
Speaker 2: tiny Buffalo. And the people own it. I mean, they
16:32
Speaker 2: use it. They milk that dry. OK, think of, you know,
16:35
Speaker 2: if you were to monetize that, how much PR they're
16:38
Speaker 2: getting from that, I am sure that they can come
16:40
Speaker 2: up with a few hundred million dollars to at least
16:42
Speaker 2: begin to make the Packers whole. And what really what
16:46
Speaker 2: this also shows is it also shows where the center
16:49
Speaker 2: of gravity is has gone among the owners, that it's
16:52
Speaker 2: with the Glazers, it's with Jerry Jones. Right now, the
16:58
Speaker 2: families of the Roonies, the Maras, the Houses, these are
17:02
Speaker 2: the folks that need to step up and stand up
17:04
Speaker 2: for the Packers, because I can guarantee you.
17:06
Speaker 1: Well, they've done it before. Yeah, exactly.
17:10
Speaker 2: When old man Halas was there and Rooney, I'll tell
17:13
Speaker 2: you what, I can guarantee you they would never have
17:15
Speaker 2: adjourned that meeting back in 2024 if they did not
17:19
Speaker 2: come out with a resolution to keep the Packers whole.
17:22
Speaker 2: And where are their kids and grandkids? They were born
17:24
Speaker 2: with an NFL franchise. They owe it to their own
17:28
Speaker 2: teams and their family's legacy to make the Packers whole.
17:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then you've got like Kroenke, right, who is,
17:36
Speaker 1: you know, finance that massive stadium in SoFi, right? He's
17:41
Speaker 1: looking to maximize everything on this. And I don't think
17:46
Speaker 1: he's alone. I think Steven Ross down in Miami, you know,
17:49
Speaker 1: you're right. It's sort of new owner versus old owner.
17:51
Speaker 1: And with Jerry is sort of the hinge. down in Dallas,
17:54
Speaker 1: because he came in and said, hey, how come individual
17:57
Speaker 1: teams aren't monetizing their own values here? He decided, hey,
18:03
Speaker 1: I can sell an American Express sponsorship, even though the
18:06
Speaker 1: NFL is Visa. I should be able to do that.
18:08
Speaker 1: I think that's what he ended up successfully suing the
18:10
Speaker 1: league over, if I recall. Then everybody in the league
18:15
Speaker 1: got to do their own individual deals. I wonder, is
18:20
Speaker 1: there any models as you're watching college sports that you think, hmm,
18:24
Speaker 1: maybe that is how the Packers will get out of
18:26
Speaker 1: this as we're watching, whether it's the Big Ten, ACC? Look,
18:30
Speaker 1: I just came from a Miami-Florida State game. We're taping
18:33
Speaker 1: here on a Tuesday. I was, and part of this
18:37
Speaker 1: is my old sports business background, I couldn't believe the
18:40
Speaker 1: number of corporate brands I saw on the scoreboard at
18:44
Speaker 1: any given time. And I understood why they were doing it.
18:46
Speaker 1: And they're not alone.
18:47
Speaker 2: Right.
18:47
Speaker 1: Every university who is trying to meet a 40 million
18:51
Speaker 1: dollar payroll for their football teams is looking for cash
18:56
Speaker 1: any way they can find it. Is that what the
18:59
Speaker 1: Packers are going to be forced to do here?
19:01
Speaker 2: I mean, they're going to be forced to do that,
19:03
Speaker 2: and they are doing that. They've been having a lot
19:05
Speaker 2: of events using the stadium for concerts and an exhibition
19:08
Speaker 2: game there for soccer. They're going to keep doing that.
19:12
Speaker 2: But back at the end of the world of math,
19:14
Speaker 2: when they do those events, you're talking maybe $ 4 or
19:16
Speaker 2: $ 5 million. You go back to $ 900 million. Now, where
19:21
Speaker 2: things could really get bad and can begin to capsize
19:25
Speaker 2: is is if the NFL goes in direction of guaranteed contracts,
19:29
Speaker 2: and this is the only professional sport that does not
19:32
Speaker 2: have guaranteed contracts like Major League Baseball and the NBA.
19:37
Speaker 1: At some point, the union is, there's just too much injury,
19:40
Speaker 1: too much. Look at Jalen Hurts. Look at that situation
19:44
Speaker 1: right now with the blood clots. There's just too many
19:47
Speaker 1: health risks to the game where the owners... it's just
19:50
Speaker 1: turning into a really bad look that they don't guarantee
19:52
Speaker 1: contracts in the most violent sport.
19:54
Speaker 2: That's right.
19:54
Speaker 1: That's right. No, no.
19:55
Speaker 2: And they should have that. The problem is... is the
19:58
Speaker 2: funding rule that calls for money to go in escrow.
20:02
Speaker 2: So if you sign a $ 200 million contract, $ 50 million
20:04
Speaker 2: a year, you pay them $ 50 million. But now you
20:05
Speaker 2: have to, as the team, you have to put $ 150
20:06
Speaker 2: million in escrow. And you cannot touch that money. That's
20:08
Speaker 2: where the private equity money is going to come in.
20:20
Speaker 2: and give the owners some cushion, because I think that's
20:23
Speaker 2: going to be one of the top issues for collective bargaining.
20:26
Speaker 2: When push comes to shove, every team, except for the Packers,
20:29
Speaker 2: will be able to afford that. So maybe there could
20:32
Speaker 2: be a calming cause during the CBA negotiations where the
20:37
Speaker 2: union and the Packers figure out something because they're both
20:40
Speaker 2: going to be in a pretty tough situation. So it's
20:42
Speaker 2: when things fall through, fall through on the other side
20:45
Speaker 2: of the ledger, and you're going to have these major
20:48
Speaker 2: demands with putting money into escrow. And when money goes
20:51
Speaker 2: into escrow, the team cannot touch it.
20:56
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23:30
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting.
23:31
Speaker 1: Every time I think the Packers are so stable, they're untouchable.
23:35
Speaker 1: You have a new it does feel as if this
23:38
Speaker 1: has been a pattern.
23:38
Speaker 2: Right.
23:39
Speaker 1: Every time it looks like they get stability, something else
23:42
Speaker 1: enters the larger picture of the business of football. And
23:45
Speaker 1: suddenly Green Bay is behind again.
23:47
Speaker 2: Right.
23:48
Speaker 1: I do think it's apparent now that when you look
23:50
Speaker 1: at the lull of the 70s and 80s and really
23:52
Speaker 1: it's the 80s. It is hard not to see that
23:56
Speaker 1: that's when they started to fall behind financially. That is
23:59
Speaker 1: why they weren't as competitive on contracts and things like this.
24:05
Speaker 1: They figure out how to monetize the stadium and they
24:10
Speaker 1: have another 25-year run. That's been going well. it looked
24:16
Speaker 1: like they've created a destination. They've got a field of dreams,
24:19
Speaker 1: like situation now where they don't feel as if they
24:21
Speaker 1: have to go to another city. They, you know, it
24:24
Speaker 1: is Lambeau is a destination. Even if you're not a
24:26
Speaker 1: Packers fan, you now want to it's Lambeau's become Wrigley field.
24:31
Speaker 1: I've got to see it. I've got to experience it.
24:34
Speaker 1: That's a huge, and that's a, there's, there's, there's money
24:38
Speaker 1: involved in that, right. In making it an experience and
24:41
Speaker 1: creating all of that. Um, Is there other things the
24:47
Speaker 1: Packers ought to invest in that could create more revenue
24:50
Speaker 1: for them on the outside? I mean, is there something- Yeah,
24:52
Speaker 1: I think that there are.
24:53
Speaker 2: But I think you're just nibbling around the edges. If
24:56
Speaker 2: you have a Taylor Swift concert, I mean, they can
24:58
Speaker 2: clear like $ 5 or $ 6 million. You can build another hotel.
25:01
Speaker 2: You have a lease arrangement there. I mean, that's big money,
25:04
Speaker 2: $ 4 or $ 5 million. But think about it, it's absolutely staggering,
25:08
Speaker 2: $ 900 million. And this is just 10%. If you have
25:11
Speaker 2: a single family that's owning a team, you could sell
25:15
Speaker 2: up to 49% and still have complete control. So if
25:19
Speaker 2: you are a single owner, a family, and your franchise
25:24
Speaker 2: is worth $ 10 billion, you could sell, if the league
25:28
Speaker 2: allowed them, sell 49% of private equity, you would still
25:32
Speaker 2: have control, and you would have an extra $ 5 billion
25:35
Speaker 2: in cash. I think what makes this borderline insurmountable is
25:40
Speaker 2: is just the staggering figures that are coming with this,
25:43
Speaker 2: $ 900 million. How are they going to make that up?
25:47
Speaker 2: And then when the rest of these teams see, wow,
25:49
Speaker 2: this is great, this is easy money, and they go
25:52
Speaker 2: to an owner's meeting, and they're like, hey, let's all
25:54
Speaker 2: get more money. Let's move the 10% to 15% or 20%.
25:56
Speaker 2: You can have another 31 to 1 vote to pass that,
25:57
Speaker 2: adopt that. Although I will say this, when it was
26:05
Speaker 2: passed in 2024, it passed 31 to 1. Guess who
26:10
Speaker 2: the no vote was?
26:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't Green Bay, was it?
26:13
Speaker 2: It wasn't. It was Cincinnati.
26:17
Speaker 1: He's so cheap, right? That's pretty funny. And yet not surprising.
26:25
Speaker 1: Only if Al Davis were alive, might you see something
26:28
Speaker 1: like that. So- Let's get back to, I wanna, and
26:35
Speaker 1: particularly your experience as a county exec, because I've thought
26:39
Speaker 1: about the Packers model. Obviously, I brought up about local
26:43
Speaker 1: news and community news and the idea that ultimately, my
26:48
Speaker 1: theory of the case about polarization is when we gutted
26:53
Speaker 1: local news, all politics became national, right? We sort of
26:57
Speaker 1: lost a glue that allowed us to be part of
27:01
Speaker 1: a community that wasn't defined by politics, but was defined
27:05
Speaker 1: by geography. And once we got rid of that, this
27:09
Speaker 1: is the situation we're in. But I wonder about data centers.
27:18
Speaker 1: And is there a, and I know that in some cases,
27:22
Speaker 1: some of these companies are offering some piece of this
27:27
Speaker 1: to the county or to the state or to the
27:30
Speaker 1: local government. What makes sense to you on that? What
27:34
Speaker 1: could you imagine making sense as a county executive working
27:38
Speaker 1: with a tech company? Is it shares? Is that something
27:45
Speaker 1: that you imagine entertaining and you think might be the
27:49
Speaker 1: answer here as we figure out how to build out
27:54
Speaker 1: the tools we need to sort of advance here technologically?
27:59
Speaker 2: I think for a lot of counties, and speaking of
28:02
Speaker 2: Rodney County, we have had on the books, you know,
28:05
Speaker 2: these very specific zoning restrictions. And so we had data centers,
28:10
Speaker 2: we had a couple of companies contact us a year ago, August,
28:14
Speaker 2: and we just said, okay, well, our zoning says X, Y,
28:17
Speaker 2: and Z. There isn't a variance option for a data center.
28:21
Speaker 2: We're sorry. And they just left us alone. So I
28:24
Speaker 2: don't know if there is, in fact, enough demand that
28:27
Speaker 2: there are counties that are saying, you know, we need
28:30
Speaker 2: the money or they don't see the disadvantages and they
28:34
Speaker 2: go along with it. So for any county, I mean,
28:36
Speaker 2: I've talked to my colleagues about this, which is, you know,
28:38
Speaker 2: if you just do your due diligence. You have zoning
28:42
Speaker 2: rules and regulations that allow you to have some sort
28:46
Speaker 2: of economic control over your resources. It shouldn't be a problem.
28:51
Speaker 2: So maybe this is the exception to the rule, but
28:53
Speaker 2: that's how we've dealt with the issue.
28:56
Speaker 1: Do you see a Packers model, though, that does make
29:00
Speaker 1: sense for development going forward? Is this something more or
29:03
Speaker 1: do you think this should be limited to sports? Because
29:06
Speaker 1: sports is sort of part of the community, the fabric
29:10
Speaker 1: of the community.
29:11
Speaker 2: So you're talking specifically how you would apply a nonprofit
29:15
Speaker 2: corporate model. Yeah, there's just really not a lot of examples. And,
29:20
Speaker 2: you know, I think. A way to get into this
29:24
Speaker 2: would be a local government that strikes a deal with
29:29
Speaker 2: a data center company and say, okay, this is how
29:33
Speaker 2: we're going to do. We're going to be able to
29:36
Speaker 2: have a standard center. It's going to give you the
29:38
Speaker 2: bandwidth you need to to run your, you know, to
29:41
Speaker 2: run your operation. But we need to have, you know,
29:44
Speaker 2: built into it. We need to have, you know, sell shares.
29:47
Speaker 2: I don't know how you would do that because this
29:50
Speaker 2: is very lucrative. The reason why the package was established
29:53
Speaker 2: in the first place is that it was not lucrative for,
29:56
Speaker 2: for data centers. all these big companies that are relying
30:00
Speaker 2: on data centers, it's not the same circumstance. And I
30:05
Speaker 2: think we have to remember too, as much as we
30:08
Speaker 2: love the Packers being community-owned, it did not begin that
30:12
Speaker 2: way because they said, we want a community-owned. No one
30:15
Speaker 2: else was stepping up. How we keep football, they just
30:18
Speaker 2: didn't care. They just, okay, Andrew Turnbull and some friends
30:21
Speaker 2: would go knock on doors, selling coupons, shares, fine. That's
30:26
Speaker 2: what kept the lights on.
30:29
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask the alternative. What if they decide
30:33
Speaker 1: to allow shares to be sold on the open market?
30:37
Speaker 2: I think the Packers cease to be who they are today.
30:42
Speaker 2: Maybe this is what's been holding us together. Part of
30:45
Speaker 2: my book was trying to answer the question, what is
30:48
Speaker 2: it exactly that makes this team so special? And the
30:51
Speaker 2: way that it is organized, not the organization itself per se,
30:56
Speaker 2: but what it allows for, that you can say that
30:58
Speaker 2: this is community-owned, that there is no scenario, as long
31:03
Speaker 2: as it keeps its nonprofit structure, that it could ever move.
31:08
Speaker 2: um think of the bears i mean the bears are
31:10
Speaker 2: actually considering moving to indiana i mean george talus he's
31:14
Speaker 2: like so what if we're gonna get a billion dollars
31:16
Speaker 2: for indiana this is the bears they belong.
31:18
Speaker 1: In chicago i i and so his grandkids are i
31:21
Speaker 1: know it really bothers me and at the same time
31:25
Speaker 1: how many other cities has this happened in where they
31:27
Speaker 1: i mean look at the kansas city chiefs have decided
31:30
Speaker 1: to go from the missouri side to the kansas side
31:32
Speaker 1: yeah You know, I've seen it here with the with
31:35
Speaker 1: the with the Washington football team. First, they went to Maryland.
31:38
Speaker 1: They were going to go to Virginia. Now they're back
31:40
Speaker 1: in D.C. The Dolphins used to be in the city
31:44
Speaker 1: of Miami. Then they basically moved to the Broward, Dade
31:48
Speaker 1: Broward County line and, you know, went ahead and created
31:52
Speaker 1: Miami Gardens. But but it is, you know, it's funny.
31:58
Speaker 1: I don't know if the fans care as much as
31:59
Speaker 1: they should.
32:01
Speaker 2: No, you know, right, right. And I think the Packers
32:05
Speaker 2: are a really good example. I talk about the private
32:07
Speaker 2: equity issue, and there are very few fans that understand
32:10
Speaker 2: what's going on. I mean, even talking to sportscasters and
32:14
Speaker 2: people that follow the football side, I mean, most people do.
32:17
Speaker 2: I think it's kind of neat that, and you too, Chuck,
32:19
Speaker 2: about being a civic institution. But as I said in
32:22
Speaker 2: my book, in my introduction, you know, people don't like
32:24
Speaker 2: the Packers because it's a civic institution. There's just something
32:27
Speaker 2: about it. They love football. And this is just the
32:29
Speaker 2: means by which We get together. And one of the
32:31
Speaker 2: very few things, he said from the beginning, how Wisconsin,
32:35
Speaker 2: before the country was polarized, Wisconsin was polarized. And this
32:39
Speaker 2: part of the state is the bullseye of a battleground.
32:43
Speaker 2: But football has been what has kept us together. A
32:50
Speaker 2: lot of times, you're talking four out of five television
32:53
Speaker 2: sets in the Green Bay, Foxville, and Market is tuned
32:56
Speaker 2: to the Packers game. That doesn't happen anywhere else. I mean,
32:59
Speaker 2: there were 50 sitcoms like I Love Lucy didn't have
33:03
Speaker 2: a share as high as that. It really is amazing.
33:07
Speaker 1: No, and you're right. It begs the question, if the
33:13
Speaker 1: Packers had been the Cardinals, the Cardinals have been around
33:17
Speaker 1: almost as long as the Packers. pretty much as unsuccessful
33:21
Speaker 1: of a franchise for the length of time the Cardinals
33:24
Speaker 1: have been in the NFL, from Chicago to St. Louis
33:27
Speaker 1: to Phoenix, where they are today. Would there be this
33:34
Speaker 1: love affair, right? Like, does the fact that the Packers
33:38
Speaker 1: have been successful, is that the secret sauce that makes
33:41
Speaker 1: everybody say, and they're a unique ownership structure. But if
33:45
Speaker 1: they weren't successful, everybody would point to this ownership structure
33:49
Speaker 1: and say, well, that's why they're not successful.
33:51
Speaker 2: Right, right. You know, I was thinking about the same
33:53
Speaker 2: question watching the Packers against the Cowboys, destroy the Cowboys.
33:57
Speaker 2: And I looked at this, I'm like, they win year in,
33:59
Speaker 2: year out. What is it? Do they just happen to
34:02
Speaker 2: have the right players and the right positions and the
34:04
Speaker 2: right coach and the right coaching staff? You know, this
34:07
Speaker 2: is just, we have this culture of, you know, we
34:09
Speaker 2: have a culture of winning. That there's just an expectation,
34:12
Speaker 2: more so than any other team, that when you come
34:14
Speaker 2: to Green Bay, okay, you know, look around you. Those
34:18
Speaker 2: are all your owners, okay? This is not about the
34:22
Speaker 2: one person up in the skybox. This is the real deal.
34:26
Speaker 2: This is football as it was when you were in
34:29
Speaker 2: Pop Warner, when you were in high school. I think
34:32
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why they are so successful is
34:34
Speaker 2: because of this community bond. And even though the Cardinals
34:37
Speaker 2: being the oldest, oldest in the NFL, they just don't
34:40
Speaker 2: have that because they were able to move from Chicago
34:43
Speaker 2: to St. Louis to to Arizona and the Raiders and
34:49
Speaker 2: how storied of an institution the Al Davis family is.
34:52
Speaker 2: I mean, synonymous with Oakland. He went from Oakland to
34:57
Speaker 2: Los Angeles to Oakland and now to Las Vegas. It
35:00
Speaker 2: has happened so many times that if the Packers did
35:04
Speaker 2: not have this unique organizational model, they would be the
35:08
Speaker 2: Milwaukee Packers. Or they would be the St. Louis Packers
35:13
Speaker 2: now because St. Louis doesn't have them. Or they could
35:15
Speaker 2: have been the Los Angeles Packers. I mean, Curly Lambeau,
35:18
Speaker 2: for several years, wanted to move the Packers to Los Angeles.
35:24
Speaker 2: You know, I have a chapter saying, you know, the
35:26
Speaker 2: Earl of Hollywood going to Hollywood. And he wanted that.
35:29
Speaker 2: So that's an example, too. Yeah. I mean, if he
35:32
Speaker 2: would have if he would have taken the reins back
35:34
Speaker 2: in 1922, the Packers could very well been Los Angeles
35:38
Speaker 2: for the last eight decades.
35:41
Speaker 1: Well, and not and frankly, be as important to the
35:45
Speaker 1: history of the NFL as the Arizona Cardinals are.
35:48
Speaker 2: Yep.
35:49
Speaker 1: Right.
35:50
Speaker 2: And that's right.
35:51
Speaker 1: You know, I think that there's something to that. I'm
35:54
Speaker 1: curious in writing your book. You know, I've had this
35:58
Speaker 1: my son and I have had this debate, you know,
36:00
Speaker 1: about the Aaron Rodgers drama and the debate versus the
36:07
Speaker 1: drama the Packers had with Aaron Rodgers versus the drama
36:09
Speaker 1: the Patriots had with Tom Brady. And in the Tom
36:13
Speaker 1: Brady situation, right, when Belichick and Brady weren't getting along,
36:17
Speaker 1: the owner stepped in. and the owner managed Brady, right?
36:20
Speaker 1: And the owner handed Brady the plane, and the owner
36:23
Speaker 1: gave Brady, and it was sort of as a way
36:24
Speaker 1: to diffuse the problem. And there was always a part of,
36:28
Speaker 1: you know, we would debate, boy, if the Packers had
36:31
Speaker 1: an individual owner, could that personal relationship, could they have
36:36
Speaker 1: managed Rodgers better, that it was harder to manage Rodgers
36:39
Speaker 1: in that case? Or is it the other way around?
36:42
Speaker 1: Do players like that there isn't a singular person they
36:45
Speaker 1: have to please? And I'm just curious- And you're writing
36:51
Speaker 1: of not having one owner, not having that point person.
36:54
Speaker 1: And certainly it's possible that policy is going to be
36:58
Speaker 1: a little bit more hands-on than Murphy was when it
37:01
Speaker 1: comes to player decisions and things like that. Did players
37:06
Speaker 1: prefer it? Do they miss having an owner or do
37:09
Speaker 1: they like not having an individual owner?
37:12
Speaker 2: I would think in the case of the Packers, if
37:15
Speaker 2: you have a president that is empowered by the board,
37:20
Speaker 2: and by and large, the Green Bay Packers board of directors,
37:23
Speaker 2: I mean, this is something that you give to local
37:26
Speaker 2: leaders and business leaders as kind of like, I mean,
37:30
Speaker 2: this is like a pretty big deal.
37:31
Speaker 1: What does it take to get on the board? Like,
37:33
Speaker 1: you know, Chuck Todd here would love to be on
37:35
Speaker 1: the Packers board. What would it take me to get.
37:37
Speaker 2: On the board? I mean, I think call Ed Policy's office.
37:41
Speaker 2: I'm sure that they would love to have Chuck Todd.
37:44
Speaker 2: Who knows? But there's dozens of them. So as long
37:47
Speaker 2: as you have a board that empowers the president and
37:51
Speaker 2: lets the president do president things and let the GM
37:54
Speaker 2: do GM things, they're going to do fine. And I
37:57
Speaker 2: think if you have a forthright, strong personality, that can
38:02
Speaker 2: take the place of of an owner. This is the
38:07
Speaker 2: reason why you kind of touched on this about the 1980s.
38:10
Speaker 2: The reason Packer struggled so much in the 50s, 70s,
38:13
Speaker 2: in the 80s is, and Bob Harlan liked to talk
38:16
Speaker 2: about how you had hardware store owners and And realtors
38:22
Speaker 2: that were wanting this, that they didn't know what they
38:24
Speaker 2: didn't know. And how things change with Bob Harlan is
38:27
Speaker 2: you got to put them in their place. Like, okay, look, guys,
38:29
Speaker 2: you really don't know football. Look at, you know, Judge Perrins,
38:32
Speaker 2: who is here for the 70s and the 80s, okay?
38:35
Speaker 2: Let the football people do the football thing. So if
38:38
Speaker 2: you have leadership that can empower the people that are
38:41
Speaker 2: supposed to do their job, you're going to be fine.
38:44
Speaker 2: And that's one of the big reasons why the Packers
38:47
Speaker 2: were not successful until Bob Harlan came in there, hired
38:51
Speaker 2: Ron Wolfe, and empowered Ron Wolfe to be the general
38:54
Speaker 2: manager and never questioned him. One of the biggest... most
38:57
Speaker 2: consequential moves that Ron Wolf made was hiring, was getting
39:02
Speaker 2: the Brett Favre trade. Everyone said, oh my gosh, you
39:05
Speaker 2: were just crazy. That was a time for Bob Harlan
39:07
Speaker 2: to step in. If he would have done that, you
39:09
Speaker 2: would never have the Packers who they are today.
39:13
Speaker 1: It's funny when we were noting this, and it was
39:16
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why we wanted to talk with
39:17
Speaker 1: Kevin Harlan on this, is that it does feel as
39:20
Speaker 1: if you had Curly Lambeau, you had Lombardi, And I
39:26
Speaker 1: think you would argue that Harlan is this era this
39:30
Speaker 1: amazing 30-year run, which we don't have nearly the number
39:33
Speaker 1: of Super Bowl appearances or wins that you would think
39:36
Speaker 1: we would have for the run we've been on. But
39:38
Speaker 1: that's for– as my friend, the Buffalo Bills fan, likes
39:43
Speaker 1: to say, it's, oh, yeah, try being a Bills fan
39:45
Speaker 1: since 1990. But I take your point. At least we've
39:49
Speaker 1: got a couple. Yeah. But Bob Harlan really is the
39:53
Speaker 1: father of this 30-year run.
39:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is it. And I break the book down
39:58
Speaker 2: into three parts. As you said before, the Lambeau era,
40:02
Speaker 2: the Lombardi era, and the Harlan era.
40:05
Speaker 1: And you contend we're still in the Harlan era, wouldn't
40:08
Speaker 1: you argue? Oh, yeah.
40:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, you can take goodness goes back.
40:13
Speaker 2: I mean, where they are right now, the Packer management,
40:17
Speaker 2: operational side, that all goes back. to Bob Harlan. So
40:22
Speaker 2: he has everything to do with this. And if you
40:26
Speaker 2: think about it, he knew how to be an executive.
40:29
Speaker 2: He knew, look, I'm the leader. I'm going to point
40:31
Speaker 2: us in the right direction. And that direction was getting
40:33
Speaker 2: a smart football mind, Ron Wolfe, and let Ron Wolfe
40:36
Speaker 2: do his job. And then Ron Wolfe hired the people
40:39
Speaker 2: that he had Holmgren, then Brett Favre, then Reggie White.
40:43
Speaker 2: And we had those three people in place. It was
40:47
Speaker 2: just now time before we got the Super Bowl.
40:58
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to this, the money gap issue.
41:02
Speaker 1: Where is, do you think that this is going to be,
41:08
Speaker 1: if 31 other teams have essentially an extra billion dollars
41:12
Speaker 1: in cash, is this how they deal with, is this
41:17
Speaker 1: mean it's signing bonus money that the Packers are going
41:19
Speaker 1: to be lack of, where is this going to impact
41:23
Speaker 1: on the roster?
41:25
Speaker 2: It's not going to impact the roster simply because the
41:28
Speaker 2: salary cap is a salary cap. You need to have,
41:31
Speaker 2: it's going to come down to cash flow, and it's
41:33
Speaker 2: going to come down to related to that, how much
41:36
Speaker 2: money they have sitting in escrow. It's not like there
41:40
Speaker 2: are no salary caps and you just need money, money, money,
41:43
Speaker 2: like is the case with Major League Baseball. In this instance,
41:47
Speaker 2: it doesn't come down to salary as much as it
41:49
Speaker 2: comes down to cash flow, operating income. and then how
41:52
Speaker 2: much you have set aside to pay for guaranteed contracts.
41:56
Speaker 2: I'll be the first to say, yes, I mean, these
41:58
Speaker 2: workers need to be paid, especially high impact and how
42:01
Speaker 2: much injury it is. When you sign for X dollars,
42:05
Speaker 2: you should get X dollars. The problem is when a
42:09
Speaker 2: team is at a disadvantage and cannot fund it in
42:13
Speaker 2: such a way, not because they're cheap, but simply because
42:16
Speaker 2: they don't have the means. 31 of 32 teams will
42:20
Speaker 2: have it. The Packers will not. So if it comes
42:23
Speaker 2: to the point where the funding rule stays in place
42:26
Speaker 2: and you need to put every year but the year
42:29
Speaker 2: that they're playing for a contract, the Packers are not
42:34
Speaker 2: going to be able to keep.
42:34
Speaker 1: Up with that. And they're just going to have a
42:37
Speaker 1: hard time having, what, extended scouting stuff? I mean, where
42:41
Speaker 1: do you think that that really has an impact financially
42:44
Speaker 1: on the team?
42:44
Speaker 2: Well, I think they're going to have to come. I mean,
42:46
Speaker 2: at some point, they're going to show their books. I'm like,
42:48
Speaker 2: we don't have any cash, OK? We have $ 800 million
42:52
Speaker 2: in escrow that is covering these obligations, right? And we
42:59
Speaker 2: don't have anything. Well, I mean, this isn't like half
43:04
Speaker 2: of us are in this boat, like you have left
43:06
Speaker 2: us out. And you knew that this was going to
43:08
Speaker 2: be a problem. So here we are, the nonprofit Packers,
43:11
Speaker 2: you got us, uncle, you can take us out. And
43:13
Speaker 2: this is when the Halases and the Maras, you know,
43:16
Speaker 2: they need to step up. This is wrong because the
43:20
Speaker 2: Packers are the NFL. The NFL is because of the Packers.
43:23
Speaker 2: We are doing it to ourselves.
43:26
Speaker 1: All right. Let me land the plane here by talking
43:28
Speaker 1: a little bit about Wisconsin politics, because in some ways,
43:32
Speaker 1: the more things change, the more they stay the same.
43:34
Speaker 2: The.
43:37
Speaker 1: You know, Wisconsin is a unique state to me because
43:39
Speaker 1: there's no swing counties anymore. You know, 25 years ago,
43:43
Speaker 1: Brown County was a swing county, how Brown County went.
43:46
Speaker 1: So went the state Brown County in 2000, 2004, 1996.
43:51
Speaker 1: Brown County was a swing county. It is not a
43:53
Speaker 1: swing county. There really aren't any swing counties. There's certainly
43:56
Speaker 1: swing voters, but it really is a state that is
43:59
Speaker 1: pretty evenly divided. But there's no one area where you
44:03
Speaker 1: would say this is your 50-50 fulcrum. What is... You've
44:10
Speaker 1: seen Wisconsin both ways, and yet it's still a 50-50 state, right?
44:15
Speaker 1: It was a swing state the other way, and now
44:18
Speaker 1: it's a swing state now. How did it both change
44:21
Speaker 1: and stay the same politically from the macro level?
44:25
Speaker 2: From the macro level, I would break it down not
44:28
Speaker 2: by counties, but by regions. I think if you start
44:31
Speaker 2: looking at regions, you do see some that are flipping
44:35
Speaker 2: back and forth. And one part of the state that
44:42
Speaker 2: folks really honed in on, and I think you talked
44:44
Speaker 2: about this too at one point, from 2016 onwards, I'm sorry,
44:49
Speaker 2: from 2012 to 2016, the western side of the state,
44:53
Speaker 2: the rural counties there for years and years were, you know,
44:56
Speaker 2: maintained that they were always democratic.
45:00
Speaker 1: They're just old union counties.
45:02
Speaker 2: Right, right. The Farmers Union, that was a really big
45:07
Speaker 2: part there. You had, I don't know. I mean, it
45:11
Speaker 2: was the exception, not the rule. So there was something
45:13
Speaker 2: unique about it. But then that switch. And once that switch,
45:16
Speaker 2: then Trump won in 2016, and you didn't see that
45:17
Speaker 2: part of the state as it had been. But when
45:25
Speaker 2: the state does go Democratic, you will see a few things.
45:29
Speaker 2: You will see that the southwest corner of the state
45:33
Speaker 2: is going either pink or light blue. And then up
45:37
Speaker 2: here in northeast Wisconsin, you'll see Winnebago County either go
45:41
Speaker 2: just slightly Democratic And then the suburbs and the exurbs
45:46
Speaker 2: around Milwaukee, that will I mean, that has gotten more
45:50
Speaker 2: and more so-called.
45:51
Speaker 1: Wow. The so-called wow counties. Right.
45:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
45:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
45:54
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they're still Republican, but they're not like they
45:57
Speaker 2: were back in 2010 when Tom Baird and I were
46:00
Speaker 2: running for governor, lieutenant governor. And, you know, Scott Walker
46:03
Speaker 2: won like three to one, four to one. You know,
46:05
Speaker 2: we weren't going to win that.
46:09
Speaker 1: How is it that Wisconsin is one of the handful
46:11
Speaker 1: of states that has a senator from each party? How
46:14
Speaker 1: does Tammy, you know, because it's funny to me, Ron
46:17
Speaker 1: Johnson and Tammy Baldwin are frankly what we used to
46:21
Speaker 1: say about Chuck Grassley and Tom Harkin. And they lasted
46:24
Speaker 1: a generation together, right? And some of it was dumb luck.
46:27
Speaker 1: It's like Tammy Baldwin is like, She she's you know,
46:31
Speaker 1: the first two times she ran good Obama year and
46:34
Speaker 1: 12 good, you know, anti, you know, anti Washington year
46:39
Speaker 1: for her to run in an 18. But her 24
46:41
Speaker 1: victory is still pretty remarkable.
46:43
Speaker 2: Right.
46:43
Speaker 1: Trump is a state and she she holds on. What's
46:47
Speaker 1: your explanation of how that happened?
46:50
Speaker 2: Well, she did that in 2012. Keep in mind that
46:52
Speaker 2: Walker won the recall election in 2012, and that was
46:55
Speaker 2: Tammy's first election. And she ran against Tommy Thompson, who
46:59
Speaker 2: was a very strong candidate, had really strong ballot, had
47:02
Speaker 2: intense ballot strength. And so that was really formidable. But
47:06
Speaker 2: you're right about- just happening to be, I mean, in
47:09
Speaker 2: some places it is being on the right cycle. If
47:11
Speaker 2: you look at Ron Johnson, you have 2022, before you
47:15
Speaker 2: have 2016, good Republican year, 2010. Yeah, 2010.
47:20
Speaker 1: He's had good cycles too.
47:22
Speaker 2: Exactly. And then for years and years, there was like
47:25
Speaker 2: this six-year cycle. So the Senate cycle really matches up with,
47:31
Speaker 2: I think, how the pendulum goes back and forth nationally.
47:35
Speaker 2: And We see that here in Wisconsin. My guess would
47:38
Speaker 2: be not having studied this, though, but there are probably
47:42
Speaker 2: a lot more examples, too, and it has a lot
47:44
Speaker 2: to do with the cycle.
47:48
Speaker 1: If David Crowley comes up short, what would be your explanation?
47:52
Speaker 2: I'm outspent. I mean, I think right now it's like
47:54
Speaker 2: two and a half to one to three to one.
47:56
Speaker 2: In today's day and age, you can survive two and
48:00
Speaker 2: a half to one, three to one. But once it
48:02
Speaker 2: gets like crazy, like five to one or six to one,
48:05
Speaker 2: if you've got the right message. But there's one thing
48:09
Speaker 2: I pick up in politics is that anger wanes. And
48:12
Speaker 2: because this is so much of a referendum on Donald Trump,
48:16
Speaker 2: there's basically three words that... David Crowley's team has got
48:21
Speaker 2: to articulate again and again, and that is Tom, Tiffany, Trump. Tom, Tiffany, Trump,
48:26
Speaker 2: just over and over and over again. If you remind
48:29
Speaker 2: people why they are so upset, Trump, and you attach it, Tom, Tiffany, Tom, Tiffany, Trump,
48:35
Speaker 2: that should work out for David. But if it comes
48:38
Speaker 2: down to being outspent three to one or four to one,
48:40
Speaker 2: maybe data centers will make a difference. I don't know.
48:43
Speaker 2: But the more and more you look at it, it
48:45
Speaker 2: seems like it's just going to be a straight up
48:47
Speaker 2: referendum on Trump.
48:50
Speaker 1: What did you learn from Crowley's amazing, you know, comeback?
48:56
Speaker 1: I mean, it is, I certainly have a theory of
49:00
Speaker 1: how he was able to do it, but what did
49:02
Speaker 1: you learn from that? And what do you think this means?
49:05
Speaker 1: Because look, I think Wisconsin's, I think the Democratic Party,
49:09
Speaker 1: I think Wisconsin and Michigan show us that the Democratic
49:13
Speaker 1: Party is divided in half on this, right? There's about
49:15
Speaker 1: half the party is leaning on the progressive slash, you know,
49:20
Speaker 1: socialist adjacent side. And about half the party is on the,
49:23
Speaker 1: call it the pro-capitalist, call it the, you know, safe
49:26
Speaker 1: capitalism side of the party. Is it a pretty even
49:32
Speaker 1: split here? Or was this, you know, Is the progressive
49:37
Speaker 1: side a bit smaller and Hong just sort of had
49:40
Speaker 1: a pretty good campaign until she sort of hit a wall?
49:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think two things. Number one, what I saw,
49:46
Speaker 2: what we saw will not happen again for a million years.
49:49
Speaker 2: I mean, how everything had to line up, how one
49:52
Speaker 2: candidate drops out, the other one happens to have this
49:55
Speaker 2: horrible problem, mismanagement with the campaign, then they drop out,
49:59
Speaker 2: and then the other person comes back in, and the
50:01
Speaker 2: governor says, I don't think it's too late. I think
50:04
Speaker 2: he can win, even though- Had you.
50:05
Speaker 1: Been called for the race, by the way, too? I mean,
50:07
Speaker 1: they were pretty much calling up whoever was left, right?
50:09
Speaker 1: They were like, I know.
50:10
Speaker 2: I know. I mean, it was just absolutely bizarre. So
50:14
Speaker 2: I would say that this is something that is not
50:17
Speaker 2: going to happen again for a long time. But specifically,
50:20
Speaker 2: I think what happened here is everything went right for
50:24
Speaker 2: David and everything went wrong for Fran. And you see that?
50:29
Speaker 1: Could she have done something different to win that?
50:32
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.
50:34
Speaker 1: Or is socialism very hard? I mean, look, I think
50:37
Speaker 1: the whole Thanksgiving thing did her in because it broke through.
50:40
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree.
50:41
Speaker 2: I think things like that broke through. There was also
50:44
Speaker 2: a moment, too, when there was the police shooting in
50:47
Speaker 2: Madison and she grabbed the bullhorn during one of these
50:49
Speaker 2: protests and people were furious and rightfully so. And I
50:54
Speaker 2: think she said some things that looking back, she probably
50:56
Speaker 2: should not have said. And people look at him like,
50:58
Speaker 2: you know, I disagree with what happened there with how
51:02
Speaker 2: things turn out, though. But I don't think that's gubernatorial
51:04
Speaker 2: like to go out and say that this was a
51:07
Speaker 2: state sanctions execution. So I think that those things happened.
51:11
Speaker 2: I think those things together made a big difference. But really,
51:14
Speaker 2: it was a coin flip. It came down to thirty
51:17
Speaker 2: five hundred votes.
51:19
Speaker 1: It's it's still remarkable that gap that was made up.
51:22
Speaker 1: All right. before I let you go. At four and two,
51:28
Speaker 1: as we're speaking right now, maybe we all need to
51:31
Speaker 1: shut up and stop complaining. But as you know, Packer
51:34
Speaker 1: fans have been cranky. I am, I defend LaFleur and
51:38
Speaker 1: get crankier at Gutenkust or, you know, a Knight's group
51:42
Speaker 1: saying his name. You know, I don't understand why we
51:45
Speaker 1: didn't spend more of our offseason focus on rebuilding the
51:48
Speaker 1: offensive line. But that's where my, that's where I come down.
51:51
Speaker 1: Where do you come down?
51:54
Speaker 2: I think what's going to make a big difference is
51:59
Speaker 2: the 2025 team was put together with Micah Parsons, and
52:03
Speaker 2: he left. And if you go back to where they
52:06
Speaker 2: were at before he went out, I mean, they were
52:09
Speaker 2: in a really good spot. And, you know, Josh Jacobs
52:12
Speaker 2: is coming back and Micah Parsons is going to be
52:15
Speaker 2: not this week, but the week after. And I think
52:18
Speaker 2: they have figured out quite a few things with the
52:21
Speaker 2: offensive line. But I think Josh Jacobs is going to
52:24
Speaker 2: be the test that you finally have a good running back.
52:28
Speaker 2: And it's going to test to see how good the
52:30
Speaker 2: offensive line is. Is it just a matter of putting
52:31
Speaker 2: up a brick wall to give Jordan Love an extra
52:34
Speaker 2: one or two seconds to throw it off? Or are
52:37
Speaker 2: they going to be able to manipulate the defensive line
52:40
Speaker 2: so you can get a good running back through that?
52:42
Speaker 2: So I think that'll be a big test. If they
52:44
Speaker 2: pass it, you know, Packers are going to go into
52:47
Speaker 2: the playoffs.
52:48
Speaker 1: You're ducking the question.
52:50
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a politician, you know, I've got a lot
52:52
Speaker 2: of practice doing this.
52:54
Speaker 1: I see that.
52:54
Speaker 2: I look, I, I, uh, I'm not going to be
52:56
Speaker 2: like Ron Johnson. I'm not going to start lying to you.
52:58
Speaker 1: Okay. I do feel, you know, I know, you know, the,
53:01
Speaker 1: I know all the stats that would, if you don't
53:02
Speaker 1: win your first, if you don't win a Superbowl by
53:04
Speaker 1: what is it, your fifth or sixth year as a coach,
53:07
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen. It's very rare that it happens. I
53:09
Speaker 1: think Pete Carroll is one of the few that has
53:11
Speaker 1: won a Superbowl and Andy Reed sort of after coaching
53:14
Speaker 1: in the NFL for, for six or seven years. But, um,
53:19
Speaker 1: You know, he's adjusted the game. I thought his play
53:22
Speaker 1: calling and I thought the play designs, you know, sort
53:25
Speaker 1: of figuring out how to get through this patchwork offensive line.
53:31
Speaker 1: It looked like he made some nice adjustments.
53:33
Speaker 2: I think he needs to win at least two games
53:36
Speaker 2: into the playoffs to keep going again.
53:38
Speaker 1: We know.
53:39
Speaker 2: Bart Starr, this will be LeFleur's ninth season. And Bart
53:43
Speaker 2: Starr had nine seasons. And in the ninth season, 1983,
53:46
Speaker 2: they had a solid offense. They were like number two
53:50
Speaker 2: and number three in the league. And they let him go.
53:52
Speaker 2: And people were like, you know, I can't believe you
53:54
Speaker 2: let go of Bart Starr. But they were like, look,
53:58
Speaker 2: he had nine years. And I think if Matt does
54:01
Speaker 2: not get deep into the playoffs, they're going to say, sorry,
54:04
Speaker 2: you had nine years. And they will shake hands and
54:06
Speaker 2: part ways. That's my guess.
54:08
Speaker 1: I'm guessing you see Ed policy very similar. He seems
54:11
Speaker 1: a bit more hands-on. He's going to do something a
54:14
Speaker 1: year too soon. Mark Murphy arguably would do things about
54:18
Speaker 1: a year later than you might wanted him to do,
54:21
Speaker 1: which I was OK with. Big picture, it's worked out.
54:25
Speaker 1: Feels like policy is more likely to do something a
54:27
Speaker 1: year too soon.
54:28
Speaker 2: I think Ed Policy is the right president for the
54:31
Speaker 2: right time. I mean, he comes from NFL royalty. He's
54:34
Speaker 2: current policy's kid. He grew up with the DeBartolos. If
54:37
Speaker 2: there's someone that's going to understand the business side, and
54:40
Speaker 2: they need to. Look, I think it's important for Micah
54:42
Speaker 2: Parsons to be healthy. I think it's important to have
54:46
Speaker 2: a better offensive line, though. But I also think it
54:48
Speaker 2: is absolutely critical, crucial. to figure out this private equity problem.
54:53
Speaker 2: I've come back to this again and again, but this
54:56
Speaker 2: is an existential threat. And a lot of the owners
55:00
Speaker 2: know Carmen, they know the DeBartolos, for better or for worse.
55:03
Speaker 2: And I think if there's someone who understands that angle
55:06
Speaker 2: of politics, it's going to be Ed Policy.
55:10
Speaker 1: Thomas, this was great. Really appreciate the time. Really enjoyed
55:14
Speaker 1: I enjoyed the book. I'm going to hold it up.
55:15
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
55:16
Speaker 1: Let's let's make sure I get the good prop here
55:18
Speaker 1: for you. Right. It's good stuff. And are you a
55:24
Speaker 1: are you a season ticket holder? I'm not.
55:27
Speaker 2: I'm not playing.
55:28
Speaker 1: Yeah. Where are you on the wait list?
55:30
Speaker 2: Right. I'm not on the wait list. I've got, um,
55:34
Speaker 2: I love going to games. I don't love going to
55:35
Speaker 2: him as much as I did, but maybe when I
55:37
Speaker 2: was in college, because they're getting old. I'm getting old.
55:42
Speaker 2: I got a half hour to go.
55:43
Speaker 1: It's travel. It is.
55:48
Speaker 2: It is.
55:48
Speaker 1: But, uh, my son was bugging me. It's been two
55:50
Speaker 1: years since we've been to Lambeau. That's for him two
55:53
Speaker 1: years too long. So we got to get back there. Um,
55:56
Speaker 1: I love the book. Thank you. More importantly, great to
55:59
Speaker 1: meet you. Great chatting with you.
56:00
Speaker 2: Appreciate it. Thanks for the time.