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Prophets in the Divine Council: What Heiser Saw in the Hebrew Text · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

0:52
Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio.
0:54
In this program, we're talking about the Divine Council worldview and Michael Heiser's interpretation of prophets being in that Divine Council.
1:04
It's gonna be an exciting program.
1:05
You guys stay tuned.
1:08
Hey guys, thank you so much for tuning back into this episode of Remnant Radio.
1:11
My name is Joshua Lewis, and I am joined with Michael Miller.
1:15
And uh yeah, we're talking about Divine Council stuff.
1:17
Before we dive into all that, let me remind you to like, share the video for those who might be interested in that whole Michael Heiser worldview.
1:25
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1:33
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1:35
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1:37
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1:43
So really cool stuff taking place over there on the newsletter.
1:47
Without further ado, that's Michael Miller, the back of Michael Miller's head anyway.
1:51
Miller, how are you doing over there in Denver, Colorado, my friend?
1:55
I'm good, man.
1:56
Uh I don't even know what to say.
1:59
Uh Joshua too yesterday.
2:01
That was fun.
2:01
Um, other than that, dude, been working on my basement to get it built out.
2:05
Roundry's coming in town, stay with me.
2:07
And so I'm excited.
2:08
He'll be my first guest in my new basement bedroom.
2:10
So then hopefully, basement built out.
2:13
Yeah, well, I'll be there.
2:14
He's gonna get in early, gets in on Saturday.
2:16
I don't leave until Sunday evening.
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So it should be good, man.
2:20
Um outside of that, I'm heading to Europe.
2:22
Uh I was supposed to do two conferences, I canceled one uh for some unfortunate reasons.
2:26
Um, but I'm gonna be doing a conference at the end or middle of June in Barcelona, which should be fun.
2:31
And I'm just gonna hang out in with our couple of our missionaries in Hungary for a few days, and then I'll head to uh Germany to meet with some friends there, and I may do some ministry out there as well.
2:40
I don't know.
2:40
I'll be there for like a solid week, uh just outside of uh Frankfurt.
2:45
About an hour outside of Frankfurt, which should be fun.
2:47
So next time our remnant viewers see us, will be or see me, we'll be in Germany.
2:52
Um I think so.
2:54
Yeah, I should be right.
2:55
Nice.
2:56
Yeah, I personally will tell you that uh I mean I I I didn't go to Germany, um, but I I was in Missouri this weekend.
3:03
Uh in deepwater, Missouri, in the middle of nowhere.
3:06
Uh yeah, Jack Coltis, good buddy of mine.
3:08
He's got a Calvary chapel out there, and we get to go hang out with him and uh teach on healing and deliverance.
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So that was a lot of fun.
3:14
Got to do a little bit of that.
3:15
Matthew Escobelt filled my pulpit here in Ada, um, taught on the Trinity.
3:19
Wow, Trinity Sunday.
3:20
Yeah, it was funny.
3:21
We were at uh Jack's church and the worship leader got up and was like, Do you guys know what Sunday it is?
3:27
And I was like, It's Trinity Sunday, and she goes, No, it's uh it's youth Sunday.
3:31
The youth are leading worship, and I was like, Oh, okay.
3:33
And I leaned over to somebody and I was like, she's wrong.
3:35
It's it's Trinity Sunday.
3:37
It's also Trinity Sunday.
3:44
Yeah, yes, I would I yes, both are equal, not equal.
3:49
I can't say that.
3:50
Michael introduced us to the topic of today's uh show, talking about divine council worldview.
3:56
Yeah, so the the idea, this is um something that Michael Heiser kind of brought to light.
4:02
And the thing I always loved about Heiser is he never claimed to be preaching anything new or bringing anything new.
4:06
He was just taking what was well known amongst scholars and kind of disseminated it to a more popular audience and making it more understandable.
4:12
And so we are gonna go through uh the divine counsel, basically, and how prophets, uh, in order to be a prophet, or at least the official office of a prophet in the Old Testament, um, always had some sort of divine throne room experience where they were called into prophetic ministry.
4:30
Uh and then we'll kind of uh make a case for that throughout the entirety of the Old Testament, starting with the patriarchs, uh, then going through judges and then the prophets, and then we'll probably uh end up in the new covenant to talk about well, what ramification does this have for us today as uh believers in the new covenant?
4:47
And that's actually probably the most exciting part will be the conclusions we draw at the end.
4:52
Um, and so this has been this is gonna be a fun episode.
4:55
I'm kind of this is like that part of me that kind of geeks out.
4:58
Uh I I don't know about you, Josh, but I first read Unseen Realm.
5:02
It might have been gosh, right when it came out.
5:06
Uh I'm trying to think of like exactly when it would have been, like 2015.
5:11
Uh 2000, I don't know.
5:12
I uh quite some time ago.
5:14
So it's been fun to kind of dive back into this content.
5:16
So thank you for making this the show topic today.
5:19
No, I uh I think I was first introduced probably to Heiser in like 2015 and thought this guy's probably a little crazy, and thought because everyone kept telling me, Oh, you gotta read this guy, talks about angels.
5:31
Yeah, and he said there's a trend, right?
5:33
Uh, angels, and like I thought he was just some kind of charismatic dude who'd written another book on angels, and I was like, nah, I'm okay.
5:40
Come to find out he's not charismatic, like crazy charismatic, and he's a scholar, you know, and he's like a language guy and an ancient Near Eastern Old Testament guy.
5:48
And I'm like, oh, well, that's interesting.
5:50
And then I started talking to some guys I really respected, and and those guys were like, no, this guy's a scholar, you should talk to him.
5:55
So I think I had him first on the podcast, like in 2017.
5:58
I mean, I Jeff Gray was still the co-host the first time I had him on.
6:02
So that was a long time ago.
6:04
And uh yeah, me and and Heiser hit it off, talked about his book.
6:07
Uh, I'll give you, I'll give you the 30,000 foot for the viewer who's like, I don't know who this guy is you're talking about.
6:12
Here's a 30,000-foot view of the Unseen Realm, the book that he wrote.
6:16
And again, he didn't come up with any of these ideas.
6:18
He is just passing down what is being talked about in the vast majority of scholarship and even in early church.
6:24
This is kind of the worldview.
6:26
Now, there are parts of his worldview that are, I would say, maybe more novel than other parts, whereas, like um a good chunk of this, the major parts, I think is pretty well widely accepted.
6:36
Uh, and that is number one, uh, God rules in the heavens as the one supreme being, Yahweh.
6:43
He is an Elohim, but he is the supreme Elohim.
6:47
He is the only all-powerful, the only all-knowing, the only all-present, the only uncreated being and all of existence.
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That is Yahweh.
6:56
And Yahweh is what is called an Elohim, meaning just a spiritual being.
7:00
Doesn't mean intrinsically God.
7:02
In fact, there are quite a few times in the Old Testament where other beings are referred to as Elohim.
7:07
They are typically spiritual beings as the Bene Elohim of Genesis 6 in the book of Job.
7:13
What's interesting about Heiser's worldview is that when God divided the nations according to the number of the sons of God in Deuteronomy 23, he sets up certain principalities, certain spiritual people.
7:23
Deuteronomy at 32.
7:25
I said 23, dyslexia strikes again.
7:28
Uh uh so uh he sets up, you know, a spirit over Persia, and that's the prince of Persia, and he sets up a spirit over Greece, and that's a prince over Greece.
7:35
And anyway, they're ruling and reigning, and then in Psalm 82, what we have is an account where God is speaking in his divine counsel, and he is judging justly.
7:44
And he says, amongst the Elohim, he says, I say that you are gods, but you will die like men, pronouncing judgment over these spiritual beings.
7:51
Another account where we see this kind of divine counsel very clearly is in the book of Job, when the sons of God, again, Bene Elohim, present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan comes among them and he asks Satan, Where have you been?
8:03
Where are you going?
8:04
And he's like, I'm going to and fro on the earth, kind of smoking folks left and right.
8:07
And that's where the conversation of Job is struck up.
8:10
So two different times in the book of Job, that occurrence takes place.
8:13
So it's a very interesting worldview.
8:15
Uh, one, it says that God rules the heavens with his divine family, his supernatural family.
8:20
When I say divine, people think I'm talking about gods.
8:23
Heiser and us here on Remnant Radio completely deny the idea of a pantheon of gods.
8:43
Now there are a whole bunch of equal gods in this, you know, cosmic arm wrestle.
8:47
But instead, what we have is we have one um supreme, all-knowing, all-powerful being uh that is Yahweh, uncreated.
8:55
And then under Yahweh, there are these other supernatural beings that have the name Elohim.
9:02
Um, and at times in the Old Testament, that's lowercase G-O-D-S gods.
9:06
Um, so that's an interesting concept.
9:08
It is not polytheism, it is not pantheism.
9:11
Uh what we're what the argumentation is, is that in the Old Testament, people worshiped false gods, uh, and these are not just uh figments of their imagination, but actual spiritual entities, these Bene Elohim.
9:24
Uh Michael, did I miss anything?
9:25
Anything you want to cover on again, that 30,000-foot, what the divine council worldview actually is?
9:32
Uh no, not as far as that goes.
9:34
I mean, you you do see uh, you know, God disinheriting the nations from Haizer's perspective, and then I which I think he's right, uh, in Deuteronomy 32, which is sort of comments commenting on Deuteronomy or Genesis 10 and 11.
9:47
You know, Genesis 10, the nations that were created, Genesis 11, this is how the nations were created.
9:52
Um, and then you see a reversal of that at Acts chapter 2 at Pentecost, but all of those same nations listed in Genesis chapter 10 are there present at Pentecost and they hear the gospel and they believe and they go back to the nations.
10:05
So the idea is that the nations that God disinherited, he's now taking back.
10:09
Um so Psalm 82 is starting to be fulfilled.
10:13
God is beginning to judge the Elohim over those nations.
10:16
And but that's not necessarily what we're going to be covering today.
10:19
That's he's giving you that overview to give context to what we're talking about today when it comes to prophets uh and how they stood in the council of these Elohim, uh, how they were brought into that council.
10:32
Is that accurate, Josh?
10:33
No, that that's right.
10:34
I think it's important because in that context, what we see is that God rules the universe in community.
10:40
Even when I think of the Great Commission, like, wouldn't it have been easier for Jesus to just show up on the Mount of Transfiguration, do that glowing thing he does, and heal all the sick, and then everybody would believe, right?
10:51
And set up a temple.
10:52
But God isn't on a great mission, he's on a great co-mission, he wants to partner with humanity.
10:56
And I think when we look at the character and nature of God in his partnership there, what we see is that God also partners with these spiritual beings in the heavenlies.
11:06
Um, and that is his divine counsel.
11:07
It's a co-mission with with those spiritual beings, if you will, as well.
11:11
He God doesn't do things alone, he wants partnership in his function and his day-to-day.
11:16
So I think what's important with that whole context in mind is that the divine counsel shouldn't be viewed as okay, a bunch of angels in the heavens necessarily.
11:26
They should be viewed as these spiritual beings who are ruling and reigning with God.
11:30
They're they're accomplishing his will and his purposes, um, which is I think is really interesting.
11:34
And in that context, what we see Izer arguing is that prophets in the Old Testament are invited into that council, they're invited into um participating in that ruling and reigning, which I think is really uh fascinating.
11:49
And we're gonna look at a couple of those accounts.
11:51
Uh, Michael, do you want to kind of set up the framework of prophets standing in the midst of this divine council?
11:59
Sure.
12:00
Uh I mean, how how would you I mean, outside of just saying that every prophet who's called to be a prophet ends up being either brought in uh to the divine council, they have some sort of divine counsel experience, or God himself brings the divine counsel to that prophet.
12:14
And so you see this, it's not just a few proof texts, you actually see it all throughout the scriptures.
12:19
You see it right there at the beginning with Adam, you're gonna see it all throughout the uh patriarchs, and then move into uh Moses, Joshua, uh the judges, and then into the major prophets and minor prophets.
12:32
The prophets, I should just say.
12:33
Um and so you'll find that the prophet's role is more than just a prediction.
12:37
He's supposed to be in the council hearing what God has to say and what his plans are, and then bringing those messages to the various uh people that he's supposed to bring them to, whether it be the people on the earth or in the days of Noah, uh the angels with the watchers and in the days of Noah and their Nephilim, or um the people of Israel in the days of the kings, or the people of Israel in the days of the judges, or the people of Israel in the days of uh uh these prophet leaders like Moses.
13:07
So that kind of rapid Babylonian exile, etc.
13:10
etc.
13:11
Yeah.
13:11
So uh the the participation of these prophets in the council setting, um, again, uh Heiser is gonna argue that they were kind of elevated up, and he's gonna make the first case in uh that of Adam.
13:23
Uh Miller just mentioned that.
13:24
You might say, well, was uh Adam a prophet and was he ruling and reigning?
13:29
Well, he's gonna make the argumentation that, well, Eden was this kind of throne room, if you will.
13:34
It was this kind of temple complex that was representative of the heavenly temple, and God would walk in the garden, and it was a common thing for Adam and Eve to be in the garden with God because they weren't shocked when he appeared.
13:46
Um, he's going to then go to the book of Job in chapter 15 to see an interesting rhetorical argumentation from Eliphaz, which is going to imply that Adam had this unique ability to listen to the counsel of God.
13:59
This is in Job 15, 7 through 8.
14:02
Are you the first man who was born?
14:04
Clearly that's speaking of Adam, right?
14:05
It's a rhetorical question being asked.
14:07
Are you Adam?
14:08
Are you the first man who was born?
14:09
Or are you or were you brought forth before the hills?
14:13
Have you listened in the counsel of God?
14:16
And do you limit wisdom to yourself?
14:18
This rhetorical uh contrast implies that Adam uh had listened to the counsel of God in this divine courtroom idea, uh, which would make sense, uh, giving Adam, uh, given that Adam lived in Eden, the meeting place of the council where God would meet with humanity.
14:33
Uh, and this kind of sets up that first paradigm where Adam is going to meet with God, receive God's command, receive God's word, and administrate that in the earth.
14:43
So the pattern there is a little loose in Genesis.
14:47
You see some of the parallels.
14:48
Yes, God comes down and meets with man, he brings that communication and that divine communication, and that communication is then disseminated as they are supposed to, you know, be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth.
14:59
That's that commissioning partnership that we see between God and Adam.
15:04
Uh, and and this takes place in essentially a throne room sitting in a temple complex.
15:08
It's loose, you don't see it screaming at you, but then when you read this passage in Job, Job here, we see this kind of chastisement through these rhetorical questions.
15:16
Hey, were you the first man created?
15:18
That's speaking of Adam.
15:19
Did you stand in this divine council?
15:21
Suggesting that Adam, in fact, was in the garden standing in this divine council.
15:25
And a really interesting uh comparison that I hadn't picked on up on the first time I've read the text.
15:31
Uh, the next one that he's going to mention is that of Enoch and Noah.
15:35
I don't know if you want to run through some of those real quick, Miller.
15:38
Sure.
15:38
Well, what you find here in with Noah and Enoch is Heiser makes this connection to the phrase walk with God.
15:46
Uh talks about how in Enoch he walked with God and he was no more.
15:50
And walking with God is a euphemism at that time of saying somebody with a close relationship with God, but it actually could mean a little bit more because in one Enoch, the author there will quote that passage, walking with God, and then he springboards from that to the scene where Enoch is now with God in the divine council, where he hears the judgment uh rendered to the watchers and to the Nephilim, their offspring.
16:16
And so it's you again, you see this uh uh walking with God phrase closely connected and springboarded into council room scenes, and you're gonna see the same kind of thing with Noah.
16:27
Um, and then you you get a New Testament confirmation of this in Jude 14 through 15.
16:33
And in Jude 14 and 15, he's gonna mention a number of different people that were sort of these prophetic voices to the people at the time to disclaim to explain what God was saying.
16:43
I mean, Noah is quite literally considered a prophet by Jude in that passage.
16:48
So it kind of continues.
16:50
It starts there.
16:51
So the walking with God is kind of the phrase that's used there to show how they were also with God in the divine counsel.
16:56
They were had insight to what God was doing on the earth and the plans that he had.
17:01
And then it goes from there and it gets even more apparent where it talks about Abraham, not so much walking with God, but he meets with God at the oaks of Morah and Oaks of Mammer, which were sacred terabeth trees, spots marked as places where divine beings appeared and divine knowledge was dispensed.
17:18
I'm just quoting Heiser here.
17:20
I I didn't know this, I think that's actually pretty cool.
17:22
Um, so there are places all over the earth, you'll you'll find this both in um well, all throughout Deuteronomy and again uh Genesis, where there are these places where you see God meeting with mankind, one of them being the garden, uh it was supposed to be a mountaintop place.
17:37
Um and then in Deuteronomy, sort of the warning in chapter 12 and 13 actually has to do with the various places that the Canaanites would worship their gods, usually being on the high places, but then it also mentions certain places that were sort of known to be portals.
17:50
Uh, you see one of them in the New Testament, which is the gates of hell.
17:53
Uh there used to be a place that was had an altar built to Zeus, but it was always known to be a place where where there was like an overlap of spiritual entities uh with mankind where they could meet and get messages.
18:07
So you also see this here with these two places where Abraham meets with God for the first time.
18:14
You know, G.K.
18:14
Bill has got this really interesting work.
18:16
Uh he talks about Eden and G.K.
18:18
Bill talks about how Eden had a three-tiered space very similar to the temple complex.
18:23
He he then compared the outer end of creation where it was like the heavens, um, you know, the uh day and night, where the in in the space, if you will, the sky and then the earth being a three-tiered system.
18:35
Um so like a three-tiered system within a three-tier system, and then when Noah builds his ark, it's a again a three-tiered system.
18:41
All of these are meant to uh parallel the again temple complex, the temple idea.
18:46
And then here Noah lands on Mount Erat, and then what's he do is he sets up a sacrifice that's a place of worship, and he also plants a vineyard that goes back to the Edenic image of Eden being on this mountain.
18:59
So you have these repeated patterns of like meeting with God, temple imagery over and over taking place, and then you've got Moses.
19:06
Moses uh is clearly used as a prophet of God in Deuteronomy 34, 10, identifies him as a prophet and uh Israel.
19:14
Uh, and they look to Moses and because of these kind of divine encounters that he's had with Yahweh, makes him the spokesman for Israel.
19:22
Again, it's not because uh he is able to perform miraculous deeds, it's because he has spoken to the Lord.
19:28
We see this in Exodus 19 explicitly saying that Moses, because he spoke with God, made him that representative.
19:34
But what's really interesting is in Exodus 34, 29 through 37, the kind of day-to-day um manifestation of that, Moses would light up like a Christmas tree, and in doing so, they were like, Whoa, you've clearly been speaking with God because you glow and nobody else can do that.
19:49
Uh here's what the text says when Moses came down from Mount Sinai, uh with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, he came down from the mountain.
19:56
Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because he had been talking with God.
19:59
Aaron and all the people of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come near him.
20:05
But Moses called them, and Aaron and all the leaders of the congregation returned to him, and Moses talked with them.
20:11
Afterward, all the people of Israel came near, and he commanded them all that the Lord had spoken to him on Mount Sinai.
20:17
And when Moses had finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face.
20:21
Whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he would remove the veil until he came out, and when he came out and told the people of Israel what he commanded them, and then the people of Israel would see that that the face of Moses and the skin of his face uh was shining, and then Moses would put the veil over his face again.
20:40
So essentially every time Moses would come and give a command, they'd be like, How do I know that that's you and that's not God?
20:45
Or you know, that's God and that's not you, because you could totally manipulate this use of power.
20:49
Well, Moses would go in, speak to God, he would be infused with glowing face energy, and he'd go out to the children of Israel and he would speak, and they would all be like, Whoa, Rudolph, you're definitely the chosen one.
21:00
That's crazy.
21:01
Uh and then he'd veil up his face because, well, it's freaking, it's weird.
21:04
Like it creep creeps everybody out.
21:06
So every time he would go uh before the Lord and speak, uh, he would be infused in some way so that people would know that God was speaking.
21:13
Now you would ask, well, uh, divine counsels.
21:15
Well, again, Moses temple complex, the meeting place with God, he'd go and speak face to face with Yahweh in this tent of meeting.
21:21
So there was this kind of temple imagery that's being used there as well.
21:25
However, uh, the the kind of uh marching orders, as it were, was that he was speaking face to face with God and then delivering the word of the Lord to the people, administrating God's will in the earth.
21:35
Again, something similar to what we're seeing in divine counsel.
21:38
You might really press this and go, man, I'm not seeing the pattern.
21:41
That's fine.
21:42
I think that the most compelling uh accounts are going to be in Isaiah, Ezekiel, and then the prophets and false prophets.
21:48
So, Miller, maybe take us through Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and their kind of walkthrough in the divine council and the prophets being called up into ruling and reigning with Christ.
21:58
Yeah, sure.
21:59
So in Isaiah uh chapter six, this is one of my favorite scenes.
22:03
You see, suddenly the heavens are opened, you see the glory of the Lord filling a temple, and the Lord is there.
22:09
And a voice is asked from the temple, from the throne, uh, whom shall I send?
22:14
And who will go for us?
22:15
And again, the us there, um, many people would say the trinity, but the scene there seems to imply a divine council.
22:22
Again, if all the other passages have to do with opening up and inviting a prophet into this space to hear the plans of God that he issues for mankind, the us there probably could imply the Trinity as well as all the other beings there that are in God's counsel.
22:37
And so Isaiah takes the commission, he takes the call, and he says, send me.
22:41
And so you see this sort of participation in God's rule uh and counsel once again is evident here in this passage, but it doesn't just stop there.
22:50
The next several prophets have the same kind of experience.
22:53
Ezekiel is out there hanging out by a canal, and all of a sudden he has this throne room experience.
22:58
The heavens are opened, he hear sees uh well, he hears a stormy wind, a great cloud, fire, uh metal for living creatures.
23:06
I mean, all kinds of weird stuff, and then he falls on his face, and God speaks to him and commissions him once again, saying, Son of man, stand on your feet, I will speak to you.
23:14
Son of man, I send you to the people of Israel, to nations of rebels who have rebelled against me.
23:19
So Ezekiel gets sent out in the same way that Isaiah does.
23:23
Uh, we didn't include in here Jeremiah for some reason in our notes.
23:27
But I mean, Jeremiah has a similar kind of call where he's uh hanging out and suddenly the Lord meets with him.
23:33
Um, but you do see Jeremiah um and he has this encounter where he's commissioned by God to go and speak to a people that won't listen to him.
23:41
And then when he confronts the false prophets in Jeremiah chapter 23, he literally asks them, Who of you has stood in the counsel of the Lord?
23:49
The implication is if you were a true prophet, that's something that would have happened to you.
23:53
And to me, that's actually the most explicit uh scripture that talks about a qualification for a prophet is having stood in God's counsel.
24:02
Um, am I missing anything, Josh?
24:05
You're missing the comment section.
24:06
They're cracking me up.
24:07
Someone said, Hey, as long as you're covering Heiser, you should cover Heiser's view of head coverings.
24:12
And then John Mark Baker goes, Is that why Miller's always wearing a hat?
24:15
And I was like, Bro, that's so good.
24:19
That's so good.
24:23
Jeez, Louise.
24:25
Uh, it would mean that for women, but uh Hippocratus would say it does not mean that for men, it actually has the opposite effect.
24:32
It's just the women, that's it.
24:34
Well, in his theory, you're gonna have to go watch the hydro episode.
24:40
We don't have to go through this documentary that is involved with the hair.
24:43
So, okay, uh, we're gonna keep on going.
24:45
Uh let's uh let's talk about the true prophets too.
24:50
So let's talk about the true prophets and the false prophets.
24:53
You already touched on it a little bit.
24:54
Uh, here's the passage in Jeremiah 23.
24:56
This is verses 18 and 23.
24:58
So, for whom among them stood in the divine counsel of the Lord to see and to hear his word?
25:04
So again, this is Jeremiah coming to confront the false prophets, and he goes, Hey, which of you have stood in the council of the Lord?
25:10
And then he says in verse 22, but if they had stood in my counsel, they would have proclaimed my words to my people.
25:17
So here Jeremiah uh is speaking on behalf of Yahweh, and Yahweh is saying, You false prophets are not true prophets, because you have not stood in my council.
25:25
And one of the ways you would know that you stood in my council is if you declared the word of the Lord that came from that council.
25:32
Another really good example is in the story of Micaiah in 1 Kings 22, 19 through 23.
25:38
These uh kings go to Micaiah and they're like, Hey, give us a prophetic word.
25:42
And Micaiah's like, the Lord is with you.
25:44
And the king can tell the sarcasm on his voice and goes, No, for real, tell me what's like, what is the Lord saying?
25:50
And and why has all of these false prophets said that I would win?
25:54
Uh Micaiah says, Well, I'm I'm explaining the story.
25:58
He doesn't explicitly say that in the question.
26:00
Uh Micaiah says, I saw the Lord sitting on his throne and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right and on his left.
26:07
And the Lord said, Who will entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Rameth Gilead?
26:12
And one said one thing, and another said another.
26:15
Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and he was a lying spirit and said, Hey, I'll go and fill the mouths of the prophets.
26:21
They'll tell the king, hey, go out and battle, the Lord's with you.
26:25
And then he'll go out and battle and he'll die by the sword.
26:28
What's interesting here is that Micaiah has seen this throne room encounter.
26:33
He has seen in the divine council what is taking place and knows that a false spirit has come and filled the mouths of lying prophets.
26:39
The lying prophets, obviously, have not stood in the council of the Lord, because had they stood, they would have seen the same account taking place.
26:47
Micaiah proves himself to be a true prophet because God has spoken and he's delivered that word.
26:52
And secondly, there's evidence that he was standing in that divine council.
26:57
So some pretty, um, I don't know, I don't know what to do with all of it.
27:02
I don't know if it's like a rock solid case that every single prophet stood in this divine council, had some kind of divine interaction with God, and was invited into this divine council.
27:12
Isaiah seems to go up in a visionary experience.
27:15
Like he didn't physically leave his body, as far as we know, but he kind of had a visionary experience.
27:19
Ezekiel was different.
27:21
It felt like the heavens almost came down to Ezekiel, where Isaiah's in the heavens.
27:25
It seems like the heavens come down to Ezekiel.
27:28
Um, same account I would say with going on with Moses, where it seems like heaven comes down to where he is on Mount Sinai.
27:35
And over and over that kind of picture repeats.
27:37
But I don't know if this is true of all of the prophets.
27:40
It just seems to be true of these prophets.
27:42
Well, okay, so this is that Deuteronomy 18 thing that we get in debates about all the time with cessationists.
27:48
They want to use that as a criteria for testing who is true and who is not of God.
27:52
And we'll always say, no, it's it's eschatological.
27:55
It's talking about a prophet like Moses.
27:58
There's some there's some problems here though with that argument that I try to nuance.
28:02
I don't just think it's referring to an end-time eschatological figure.
28:06
I do think that we're different kinds of prophets.
28:09
There were prophets in the Old Testament who were sort of prophet leaders like Moses, Joshua being the next one, but clearly he doesn't measure up because at the end of Deuteronomy 34, it says Joshua was not like Moses.
28:22
So it leaves us with this expectation that there's going to become another one who's just like Moses, who has that kind of friendship relationship with God.
28:31
And we see that fulfilled in Christ very clearly.
28:33
But it also means that there had to have been a class of prophets that were meant to be sort of prophetic leaders over Israel.
28:41
I say this because even at the time of Moses, you've got men who were given the spirit of prophecy, but they don't come into the divine council.
28:48
Um, and and I'm thinking of all the other elders.
28:51
They were there given the spirit of wisdom to judge.
28:55
Because God comes down on the mountain and has picnic with them.
28:58
Whereas like Bezalel doesn't have that experience.
29:01
Well, it doesn't seem like they have regular access.
29:04
And I I would also say it's not just them.
29:07
There's others who weren't there that were prophesying, and the elders are upset about this.
29:11
Uh you think Isaiah had regular access?
29:15
Like, I don't think that they're always like, Yeah, I don't know about that.
29:19
That there does seem to be some level of access for these prophet leaders, but not necessarily all those endowed with prophecy.
29:27
I take uh Saul as another case in point and David.
29:31
We don't see Saul standing in the council of God.
29:34
That's why they had prophets who did.
29:36
I mean, Samuel being the last one of the judges to anoint the next king.
29:40
And then you've got all of the courtroom prophets that would come to David to give him the word of the Lord.
29:46
But yet we do see David prophesying, writing prophetic literature, prophetic songs.
29:51
Saul, they're even asking the question, is he among the prophets?
29:54
But it was only like a temporary thing for Saul.
29:56
So I I don't necessarily think the have to be in the divine council is a um a prerequisite for any kind of prophetic demonstration, but it certainly is to be deemed a prophet in a more proper sense.
30:10
And then that kind of changes in the New Testament, which is something we'll obviously get to in a minute.
30:14
But do you see the argument I'm making?
30:16
How there's probably there's probably two different categories even in the old covenant.
30:20
One might even argue like two different classes.
30:22
I mean, that would be like I know I don't like using language like that.
30:26
However, Moses is speaking to God face to face.
30:32
Like Moses being unique, totally.
30:35
Yeah, yeah, Moses being unique.
30:36
And but then but then he speaks to all of the other prophets in riddles and in dark sayings.
30:40
But then Samuel comes on the scene and none of his words fall to the ground.
30:43
And then there's a school of prophets.
30:45
So it's like I go, man, it just seems like there are like Isaiah, Jeremiah, these guys who, again, standing in the presence of the Lord, like their words aren't going to fall to the ground.
30:56
They're very clearly hearing God's speak.
30:58
And at other times, God is speaking in riddles and in dark sayings.
31:01
And I don't think any of them, one is more prophecy and one is less prophecy, but it seems like there's a just a different level of clarity to those in this divine counsel setting.
31:12
Um, that I think is interesting.
31:14
And like maybe that's maybe that's not the distinction because again, Samuel's words never fell to the ground, but we have no account of him having any kind of supernatural heavenly experience or a heavenly experience coming down to where he's at necessarily.
31:27
Well, the audible voice of God speaks to him.
31:30
Um, but I I don't know if it's a divine counsel kind of experience.
31:34
But like when he's a young boy, he's eight years old sitting in the temple under Eli.
31:38
So it you know, it says the word of the Lord had not yet been revealed to him.
31:42
I I wonder if that's kind of like a similar implication as you know, Noah and Enoch walking with God.
31:48
Um I don't know.
31:49
We're we're off script here, just kind of speculating, which is what I hoped we would do.
31:53
I hoped we would get into this kind of conversation.
31:56
Well, I think that the divine counsel language is important.
32:00
I think it's it's interesting because again, I think that the primary focus, Haija's worldview that was really helpful to me was to see uh God's heavenly family and God's earthly family on mission with God.
32:13
And when you start looking at the Bible in that kind of worldview, you go, okay, this makes a lot of sense.
32:19
Um, not every spiritual being, as far as I'm aware, is in this divine council, and not every human being uh that's on the earth was in this divine council.
32:27
I mean, as we read the Old Testament, that seems to be the way that it was.
32:30
Um, and as I'm I'm like progressing through the scriptures, it seems as if these guys are carrying the word of the Lord that was both foretelling and forth telling from this council.
32:40
Like, this is what God has decreed in the heavenlies, this is what will soon take place.
32:44
Or, hey, tell the people, uh, I'm gonna come down and I'm going to smoke some jokers if they don't get their act together.
32:50
And the prophets did both of those things.
32:52
So uh I think I think this is again really compelling.
32:57
It makes sense within the council language.
32:59
It is interesting that only a few of the prophets were able to do this, and yet um I I think the only thing I can I can think of is to go into what context this takes and what bearing this takes for us in the new covenant.
33:12
Is there anything that you want to touch on before we get there?
33:14
No, I just think it's really interesting.
33:16
Um, it does certainly create those who've been in and stood in his council, does certainly create a class that goes beyond uh it's I mean, it may, you know, Moses's sorry not Moses, Jeremiah's appeal in Jeremiah 23 may be exactly that, saying, like, none of you guys have stood in his council.
33:32
You have no idea what you're talking about.
33:34
Um, and these guys were really bad.
33:36
I mean, the prophets at the time of Jeremiah were the worst, um, maybe competing with some of the prophets today, quote unquote, bad prophets, those who are not actual prophets.
33:46
Um, but yeah, the implications for today, this is where it gets really fun.
33:50
Uh, and this is actually, I think, where I might disagree with Heiser.
33:54
Um, Heiser would make that council thing a prerequisite and say he wasn't super in on the idea of uh modern day prophecy.
34:03
He was a continuationist, he believed all the gifts were for today, um, but not in the same way that you and I would.
34:10
Um, and I got to have a lot of conversations with him because the whole like training in prophecies is like you can't train people and the gifts of prophecy.
34:17
And I'd be like, Well, can you train people and how to evangelize?
34:19
Can you train people and how to teach?
34:21
Well, what makes those any less or more supernatural?
34:24
Um, and he, you know, he he was like, Oh, that's a fair pushback.
34:27
This was in a conversation I actually had with him over dinner back when he was in Bellingham, Washington.
34:31
So Yeah, I think uh what's interesting to me is the the prerequisites for being in the divine council.
34:39
Like, what are the what are the qualifications?
34:40
Well, it's communion with God, it's some kind of you go up or he comes down, heaven and earth meet, um, you're seated in this kind of council chamber, and you rule and reign with Christ, either through foretelling or fourth telling.
34:53
And then I look at all of those criteria, and then I just asked the question that I don't I think Heiser didn't ask.
34:58
And I'm maybe maybe he very well asked it.
35:01
He's a very bright guy.
35:02
I think he probably just didn't write about it.
35:04
I think that the natural implication of this is to go, well, well, we have all those qualifications in the new covenant.
35:11
Like you and I are seated in Christ in heavenly places, like so our session or Christ's session and our union with Christ by nature of our union with Christ means that we are seated in that that courtroom, if you will.
35:25
Um, secondly, uh the the power of the Spirit has been poured out on all flesh, Acts II Pentecost.
35:31
And the Acts II Pentecost is meant to symbolically parallel Sinai and the the sound of a rushing wind, uh the fire flames as of tongues falling on people.
35:43
Um it's supposed to the imagery language of Acts 2 is mirroring what's taking place at Sinai.
35:50
So there's this picture again of heaven meeting earth in some meaningful sense, um, and then there's power that's poured out to the people to foretell and forthell in this great commission mandate to go into all the world and proclaim the gospel.
36:04
And it seems like in that context, we rule and reign with Christ, because yes, Satan was crushed under the feet of Jesus, and yet in Romans, God, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
36:18
And then you've got you know this picture of Revelation 2, you know, the man child has this rod of iron that rules the nations.
36:25
Psalm 2 seems to point that to Jesus, but then those who overcome, I think it's Jezebel in Revelation 2 or 3, he gives them a rod of iron to rule the nations.
36:35
So it's like, okay, like over and over and over, there's this paralleling of like, okay, the ruling and reigning image of divine counsel that was taking place with the prophets is now being passed on to us.
36:44
The prophetical gifts are being passed on to us, the courtroom scene, like we have access to all of that stuff.
36:50
There's some other parallels that are worth checking into.
36:52
Um, like the measure of glory that Moses has is with his face shining, Jesus having a greater measure off the Mount of Transfiguration, where he's completely transfigured, so more so than just shining of his face.
37:05
Um, you've got the fact that you know Moses would know God face to face, Jesus would know God face to face.
37:12
Moses would be a mouthpiece to Aaron, who would then speak on his behalf to the people, and Moses would be as God.
37:19
Um, and then you see Jesus having his mouthpieces that he sends out.
37:23
Um, Abraham being a friend of God.
37:26
Uh, Jesus uh says to his disciples, pulling on similar language, he says to them, uh, no longer do I call you a slave, for a slave doesn't know what his master is up to, but I've called you friends for everything I hear from God, I make known to you.
37:41
And so you see this sort of friendship, uh walking with God, uh, language being used where it's now being disseminated to the disciples.
37:51
Um, you also see the king of heaven meeting with the disciples in Matthew 28, right, where he he sends them out, like all authority has been given to me.
38:00
He's risen from the dead, all authority.
38:02
So this is a council room kind of thing.
38:04
This is the the throne.
38:06
This is the person who's seated at the right hand of the Father.
38:08
And he says, All authority has been given to me.
38:11
So now I send you out.
38:13
So he's sending them out, the disciples, in the same way that the prophets of the Old Testament would be sent out.
38:20
So you see that same kind of language, it's really kind of cool.
38:24
And then there's the parallel of the 72 in Luke 10, he sends out the 72.
38:28
So if you're not familiar with the connection there, in Genesis chapter 10, there's a thing called the table of nations that is recorded before Babel.
38:36
But then when Babel happens, Deuteronomy 32 tells us when he divided the nations, he divided them according to the number of the sons of God, right?
38:43
So how many nations were there?
38:45
How many sons of God were put over those nations?
38:47
Well, Genesis chapter 10, there are 70 or 72, depending on the textual variant that you're reading, um, that'll say, hey, these are the table of nations.
38:55
Well, then the same thing happens in Luke, where there's 70, but there's also a textual variant where 72 disciples seem to be.
39:01
Why do you think that's such a weird thing that we have the two textual variants in the same thing?
39:06
Yeah, dude, it's wild.
39:08
It's fascinating.
39:08
But either way, almost like it was intentional.
39:11
Like a scribe was like, I need to make it.
39:14
You need to botch this up on purpose.
39:17
I don't know.
39:17
I don't know if that's what happened.
39:18
But like the uh the this idea is that there were 72 nations, and then in Luke 10, there's this representation of the disciples going out, and it it they're still going to Israel in Luke 10.
39:29
But what's really interesting is it's representative.
39:31
If the 12 disciples is representative of the 12 tribes of Israel, then the 72 is this kind of symbolic picture of reclaiming the nations.
39:39
And if God has this divine council of 72 that he's ruling and reigning with, well, now he's got an earthly family that kind of models that out that he is also ruling and reigning with.
39:51
Um, and I just think that's a beautiful picture.
39:53
And it and we know that it's tied to spiritual warfare because in Luke 10, he sends them out, bless people with peace, you know, bless them, you know, with the kingdom, tell them the kingdom has come, heal the sick, you know, cast out, you know, he doesn't tell them to cast out demons, heal the sick, tell them the kingdom of God has come near.
40:06
They come back and go, look, even the demons are subject to us when we bless people with the kingdom of peace.
40:11
Um so again, there's this like spiritual warfare component connected to Luke 10 that goes back to this divine counsel worldview.
40:18
So it's like this repeated theme over and over and over.
40:22
72 nations, um, you've got the seated in Christ in heavenly places, the Acts 2 Pentecost, prophecies poured out on all flesh, with this kind of this heavenly eschatological imagery that's being used in Acts 2 when he pours out that spirit.
40:37
You know, you the great commission that Michael is mentioning in the same way that Isaiah's commission, who will go for us?
40:43
You know, send me, I'll go.
40:45
Uh, you know, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, all these accounts, there's a commissioning that's sent forth from the seated Lord.
40:52
We're participating in all of that.
40:54
Like there, I can't think of a marker that Heiser brings up that is needed to be part of this divine council that new covenant believers don't have access to in Christ, which is kind of, I think it doesn't really add a whole lot to my life and practice necessarily, but I think it kind of almost beautifies the image and the stature and the status of believers in Christ that were ruling and reigning in the same way the angelic beings are ruling and reigning in the heavenlies.
41:19
I just think that's fascinating and beautiful.
41:21
Well, I I think it means I think it has practical implications.
41:25
I mean, um, I'm gonna see if there's one other parallel, and then maybe I'll come back to this thought on on uh practical application for us today.
41:32
I think it does have more meaning uh and application to us beyond it being also beautiful.
41:38
Um but another uh parallel that I was wondering about was the presence of the tabernacle in Israel and the idea, like when they wanted to inquire of God, they drew nearer to his presence.
41:51
And is there sort of an overlap of counsel there when it comes to the tabernacle itself being in Jerusalem, uh that particular mountain uh or hill, and and the people, you know, they would pray to that direction, they would make pilgrimages and pilgrimages there three times a year, they would hear the retelling of the law there.
42:10
Um it seems to me that that's another place, uh council overlap, like a new Eden.
42:17
Like when it talks about the tabernacle, there's there's parallels to Eden.
42:21
And so I don't know.
42:22
What do you think about that?
42:23
And then and then it obviously has implications of us being the new thing that God is tabernacling with, and that all of us now have this spirit of prophecy that's poured out on us.
42:34
Um, that all of us is in Christ, the democratization of the spirit, it being given to everybody.
42:40
Uh, what do you think about that?
42:41
No, I think that's a good connection because I I made the mention of Eden being a temple complex and and Noah's Ark being a temple complex, and Moses going before the Lord and speaking into face face to face in this kind of temple-like setting, um, over and over, temple imagery is being used.
42:58
Even you could argue that Mount Sinai is again a place where heaven and earth meet.
43:02
And the only reason the temple is significant is not that it has to be a temple, but that it has to be representative of the place of heaven and earth touching.
43:09
Um, and that's what the temple was.
43:11
So we have that pattern over and over, but then you know, Paul tells Timothy that in every place I would want men to lift up holy hands.
43:18
Because the idea was in the ancient Near Eastern world, the place that you go and speak with God is the temple.
43:24
And when the temple was destroyed, the synagogues were set up.
43:26
So the place that you speak to God was the place that God speaks to you through his word there at the synagogue.
43:31
So it was this idea that there was only certain places in which you could go and commune with the Lord.
43:36
Whereas Paul is telling Timothy, actually, you can pray in every place because you're this temple of the Holy Spirit.
43:40
You are being built brick by brick for a dwelling place for the spirit.
43:44
And I would just say, yes, I think that that is an additional level of comparison.
43:49
Look, this is evidence of where heaven eats earth in this new temple that is the church.
43:53
So I think that's I think that has a lot of staying power.
43:57
Okay.
43:58
Let's you were saying that this is a beautiful thing.
44:01
I want to say it has practical application.
44:03
Um, and the reason I'm thinking about this is most people don't think of themselves like they would think of those who sat in the council of God.
44:12
Um you know, we tend to, I'd say your average believer, they tend to see those who are the pastors or those who have some sort of itinerant ministry or a podcast as they're the ones who are really anointed and gifted.
44:25
And yet I I think this idea of God tabernacling with all of us today, that God gave his spirit to all of us today, is a great leveling field.
44:35
Uh, I said this when I appreciate your church, as I recall.
44:38
Uh, the reason why we know there is no uh Christian elite uh is because God gave us all the spirit, not just a few elite people.
44:48
The democratization of the spirit has made us all this new thing that God tabernacles with that can hear the counsel of the Lord.
44:56
And so I think it has dramatic application and implication uh for believers today that you should grab hold of, that there is a real access you have.
45:06
To God, uh, very similar to that of the prophets of the Old Testament.
45:10
And it doesn't mean um that you're going to uh be as mature as they were and have uh exactly the same experiences, um, but it does mean that you do have direct line to God.
45:23
I mean, the veil being torn, uh, that's such a cool thing.
45:26
The presence of God is now with all of us, and so um yeah, that's it.
45:33
No, when I said uh huge application points, I just mean that like personally, I seek the Lord, take his face, I pray now.
45:39
Um, I believe in the gift of prophecy, I believe God will lead me and teach me.
45:43
I think this is just more connective tissue that supports that.
45:47
Um, I don't know that it changes my life dramatically, is what I meant to say when I say not huge application points.
45:52
I just think that there's talk about beautification and the connective tissue that really bolsters that kind of thinking.
45:58
And I would hope um that people who are wrestling uh with God speaking to them, them being valuable in the body of Christ, them having meaning and worth, that they would look to this and go, Man, it seems as if we have the same status in some sense as these beings that are ruling the nations in Deuteronomy 32, and that God has invited us into such a wonderful, beautiful divine family, um, the kingdom of God, the family of God, to rule and reign.
46:25
Um, and that's always been a huge point, um, I think of a passion for mine, again, emphasizing over and over, it's not a mission, it's a co-mission.
46:34
We partner with God, and and when you realize that you have access to ruling and reigning with Christ, that's a that's a significant thing.
46:41
Now, in all of this, I feel like I have to go out of my way because someone is gonna be like, well, remnant radio said I could do it.
46:46
I am not telling you to travel to heaven, I'm not telling you to find a way up into the heavenlies and like get into this courtroom scene.
46:53
I'm saying that in a sense, spiritually, we all already have been granted access.
46:58
We already are seated in Christ in heavenly places in a spiritual sense.
47:02
We've already been given this power from, we are already at the temple of God in a spiritual sense.
47:07
We've already been commissioned like Moses and Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekiel in the Great Commandment and Great Commission.
47:13
I'm actually saying this from a position of it's already accomplished, not necessarily in the sense of like, well, now we have to go up there because we've been granted access.
47:22
No take on these new esoteric practices that I would say is actually more new age than it is uh prophetic in scripture.
47:31
Yeah.
47:31
So all of you woo-wooers out there who are trying to travel to heaven and participate with the divine counsel, like Robert Henderson and you know, the creator.
47:41
Yeah, just Abraham and uh uh what is his name?
47:43
Ian Clayton.
47:44
I mean, these guys are are trafficking something totally other.
47:47
I think it starts with fantiful some imagination, and then I think it ends up being very real and also very demonic.
47:54
Um so just fair warning out there, there's a kind of trafficking in heavenly experiences that we are not allowed to participate in.
48:03
Paul's experience was uh sovereign, it was initiated by God, not initiated by Paul.
48:10
John's experience was initiated by God, not initiated by John.
48:14
So it's always kind of an important thing.
48:16
I do think that those experiences will happen to people today, but I am telling you, you don't make them happen.
48:23
It's not like some free thing you get.
48:25
And even those in the Old Testament who did have those council throne room kind of experiences, they never made them happen.
48:32
They didn't just get to go do that whenever they wanted to.
48:34
So whoever's out there teaching you that that's your inheritance, no, run from that.
48:40
That person is trafficking something probably not good.
48:44
And it is gnostic.
48:46
I'm glad you're putting a warning on it.
48:48
But John Mark Baker has already said that he's exposed us for teaching that we can travel to heaven.
48:52
So no matter how many times geez Louise, you're the the godsend of anyone who Mike Winger and John Mark Baker make a video about you.
49:04
Most people aren't gonna watch it.
49:05
Like, I mean, six hours.
49:07
I mean, here's the thing they've had great traction on those videos, so more power to the.
49:11
I watched it.
49:11
Uh oh yeah, I watched, I watched it before it came out.
49:13
I was a big fan.
49:14
Huge.
49:14
In fact, he was like, I added I added 30 minutes, and I was like, okay, okay.
49:19
Uh uh settle settle down, trying to give me a Snyder's cut of your exposure video with 30 extra minutes of deleted scenes.
49:26
I'm like, I'm okay.
49:27
I I got the gist.
49:28
Um, he saves after doing one of those documentary.
49:36
So we'd love to see that.
49:38
Uh John, John Davison, when he would preach at our church, we would do out-of-quote uh out-of-context quotes from his sermon, and we would send them to him, just lists of out-of-context quotes that made them look really bad.
49:50
Well, he's created a tradition now.
49:51
Anytime we have a guest speaker come into church, he just sends me uh quotes of their sermon that are way out of context that make it look like they're preaching heresy, which is awesome.
49:59
So, okay, guys.
50:01
Uh thank you so much for tuning into this episode.
50:03
I think I think this is a good place to land the plane.
50:04
Miller, do you have any kind of closing thoughts that you want to add to the the program?
50:09
Oh, I would just say there's other guys that are adding to the content that Heiser did.
50:14
Uh Joel Mudomame, Mudamali.
50:17
Mudamali, dude, his stuff is really, really good.
50:20
Go check out that kind of content.
50:22
Um, and also do feel free to send us messages.
50:26
Uh, our admin always lets us know if there's something that kind of stands out, if there's research that you guys have done that we haven't seen.
50:31
I'd also check out Doug Van Dorn.
50:34
He has a good contribution to the same conversation.
50:36
So check out his content, Angel of the Lord, the Angel of Yahweh, uh, his stuff on the giants.
50:42
That's really cool.
50:43
I'm just looking at his books down here on my shelf.
50:45
So I just I'm gonna put it in a plug because I like the work these guys are doing.
50:49
I think it's really cool.
50:50
Love it.
50:51
Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode.
50:53
Subscribe to the channel, like the video, and we'll see you next week from 4 to 5 p.m.
50:57
Central Standard Time or this Monday from four to or Wednesday from four to five p.m.
51:01
Central Standard Time.
51:02
We'll see you guys next time.
51:03
Peace out.