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Routine is my death · The Generalist World Pod

• 0:00
  Hey, it's Millie, and welcome to the Generalist World Podcast. This is the podcast for people who have never fit into a box at work, and to be honest, we don't really want to.
• 0:09
  Every week, I chat with a new member of Generalist World, and I share their stories, their philosophies, their frameworks of how they are living their life and creating work that actually aligns with their generalist skill set.
• 0:22
  So if you are someone who has had a non-linear, squiggly career, this is the podcast for you. This, like, strange little dance at the beginning. It's sort of to, to let go of nervousness, I would say that too.
• 0:33
  [laughs] I don't know what it is. It's just, like, this, like, ongoing thing, this weird tradition. The dance is never the same. Let's start on the topic of neu- neurodiversity, and this is one of the stims. Wow. Really?
• 0:46
  Yeah. We, we connected because we want to talk about neurodiversity, right? Yeah, totally. Let's do it. And there is different varieties.
• 0:52
  Many people use stims to calm down the nervous system, and especially neurodivergent people use stims to, uh, basically to, let's say, manage, monitor, and control themselves.
• 1:02
  And mine is basically touching my fingers, playing with my fingers. If I have a ring on, I'm playing with my ring. Sometimes I play with my hair. And some people need to, to shake it off. This is a stim. Yeah.
• 1:14
  That's so interesting, Anna, because this year I have had three separate people ask me, they're like, "Are you perhaps neurospicy?" And the first person that asked me was actually my mother-in-law.
• 1:27
  And I had actually never considered the question, which is maybe funny in itself, where I was like, "Oh, I, I truly never considered that." Maybe that's a good sign because you always felt that you, that you belonged.
• 1:40
  Well, I think this is it. I was speaking to my friend Bree the other day about it, who also asked me. She was kind of like, "Oh, your brain sees things a bit differently."
• 1:49
  And I said, "You know, however I've figured out managing my life, I'm managing well." And so I don't personally feel like I need to, um, have kind of language around it.
• 2:02
  I'm like, okay, I, I do recognize that I see the world a bit differently and I maybe move through the world a bit differently, but I've kind of created a world for myself where I can thrive. A generalist world? Yeah.
• 2:13
  [laughs] It's really obvious, right? Yeah. When you connect the dots backwards. [laughs] So Anna, I'm so happy to have you here.
• 2:24
  For people who haven't come across you, for someone who hasn't met you yet, could you give us a little flavor of your background, what you care about, who you are as a person? I was born and raised in Siberia. Mm.
• 2:39
  I moved to Bavaria when I was 14 with my parents. We immig- immigrated from the Soviet Union, then a day after we left, it fell apart. Wow.
• 2:48
  Uh, we arrived in Bavaria, and then this is where my German civilization is Bavarian. So I speak Bavarian, and I have the gentiles, and I, uh, was basically raised with good beer and pretzels. [laughs] And then
• 3:04
  I studied biotechnology there and worked in the biotech field in the pharmaceutical R&D in the Munich space, and then at some point, kind of in the spear of a moment, I said, "Well, how about I go somewhere else?"
• 3:17
  And I was offered a position at a different company, and then I got an offer, a counteroffer from my own employer to, for me to go to the US. Hmm.
• 3:27
  So I thought I'm going to the US for two years, and then two, 10 years later [laughs] I was still there.
• 3:33
  While I was in the US, I was also in Italy once for six months, and basically along the way I collected all the languages. So I speak Russian, German, English, Italian.
• 3:41
  Move me to a different country, I will learn the language as well. And it kind of describes my, my attitudes towards things, like, I cannot do it right now. Okay, let, give me some time, I'll learn that. Hmm. Hmm.
• 3:52
  And it's my, my constant need for learning and my constant need for, for input that drives my, my career, myself, my, my, my friendships, my hobbies, my everything. Hmm. Like, I'm addicted to learning.
• 4:05
  And to come back to the topic of neurodiversity where we already started, this is one of the things in many autistic and, uh, ADHD people is the novelty-seeking gene. Hmm. Where we constantly need novelty to be happy.
• 4:20
  Hmm. In my, all of my jobs, as soon as my learning curve starts to become more and more shallow, I need something new. It needs to be steep at all times. Hmm.
• 4:29
  And this is why in the end, after my scientific career in R&D, I became a coach and a team coach because every single experience that I have with my clients is a new one.
• 4:39
  There is no identical experience with clients, with teams. Every single time is different, and every single time I learn something.
• 4:45
  This resonates so much, and it's something I see, uh, 'cause there's, like, this weird narrative in the world where, like, if you're a job hopper, if you change, you know, it's like a red flag if you change every three years.
• 5:00
  I cannot be in the same job for this, for more than three years because- Yeah... because then, by then I know everything. Then it becomes routine, and routine is my death, my personal death.
• 5:10
  So some people, you know, the burnout is one of the diagnoses. I get into the boreout. Mm. Oh, never heard of that. Yeah.
• 5:18
  It's, it's one of the s- the s- people who are novelty seeking, they get into the boreout, and it's similar to a burnout. Okay. Talk me through this. So what happens when you approach the boreout?
• 5:30
  Like, how have you approached it in your career? Is it that you find another job? Is it that you create another job within the company? What's been your approach?
• 5:38
  So whenever I get into a situation where I know everything, where things become routine, I quite often go into the mode, okay, who else can I bring in who can do this boring job that I don't like, who can learn what I already know, and what else is out there?
• 5:53
  And I start looking for a new job, or new jobs simply find me. And this is the one thing that I, I have to say, I never said no to an opportunity that was offered me. I was given an opportunity to go to Italy.
• 6:06
  I was given the opportunity to go to the US. And in all those times before I went there, I went through a panic attack. And then [laughs] basically I'd say, "This is-
• 6:16
  Meme I once saw, basically, "I will figure it out in the end. I just need to panic first." [laughs] And it's part of my, apparently part of my process to do that.
• 6:26
  Whenever I start something new, I panic first, and then I was like, "Okay, I went through that. I basically thought through all the w- horrible opportunities and things that can happen. Now I'm prepared for everything.
• 6:35
  Let's go." Yeah, okay. Great strategy, right? Because the, the other option is to- In the moment, it's not that great [laughs]... to bury it. Yeah. But at least you're feeling it.
• 6:45
  I think for me, it's always a signal when I don't feel something, it, it pops up in other ways. So at least you get to release that, that panic in the moment. Can you talk to me about your, I mean, neurodiversity.
• 6:59
  You are such an advocate. This is something you're very vocal about. And so talk me through w- what's that journey been like for you? Is this, um, something you were diagnosed with early? Was it later in life?
• 7:10
  Like talk us through. So I got my ADHD diagnosis at the age of 44. Mm. And what preceded that was a series of depression and one burnout.
• 7:24
  Not a boreout, but an actual burnout where I wasn't able to get off my couch for months, and it w- it would weren't for my husband who brought on a regular basis a little bit of food and said, "Just eat a little bit," I don't know where I would be right now.
• 7:36
  And in that time, I basically found an emergency therapist with whom I had s- some sessions to, to just to, to get out of that. And I was also researching what is going on with me. I don't know what is happening with me.
• 7:50
  It's like I don't feel like myself anymore. And I found this article on ADHD in adult women, and I read this article and basically there was a little bit checklist and I was like, "Oh my God, this checks so much."
• 8:02
  And I brought this article to, to the therapist and I told to her, I was like, "I'm suspecting this." And she looked at me as like, "Oh yeah, now I can see that." [laughs] On the, on...
• 8:12
  And the thing is, she diagnoses ADHD people two to three times a week. And apparently I was masking in the beginning that well so that she could not, she didn't come up with an idea that I could be one of those.
• 8:24
  So as it's typical for people with neurodiversity, I dove into a rabbit hole [laughs] and basically started researching and reading and exploring and watching and listening to all the media that are out there and recognized myself more and more.
• 8:41
  And once I got my diagnosis one week before I got married, basically for me it was like everything fell into place. Mm-hmm.
• 8:49
  And then after re- having received this diagnosis at 44, I went through a stage of gr- s- all the stages of grief. Mm.
• 8:58
  'Cause I, 'cause I started thinking about like, "Oh my goodness, what if I had received the support that I could receive now 30 years ago
• 9:06
  when I was moving from one country to another, learning to new language and ex- establishing myself somewhere else?
• 9:13
  What if I had received this when I, I don't know, before I went to all of those unhealthy coping mechanisms that I went through?"
• 9:22
  Like be it risky behavior, this is one of those coping mechanisms that ADHD people have because we kinda have... We need this adrenaline to get some kind of replacement for the dopamine that we're lacking quite often.
• 9:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:35
  What if I received a support to explanation how I need to propers- properly nourish myself in order to be able to, uh, to not have those big dips in my activity, in order to not be procrastinating like a world champion and, and just be, let's say, more productive and more
• 9:55
  on with myself? Or emotional regulation. I was always told that I'm overly emotional. Now I know where it's coming from. It's like- Mm...
• 10:03
  ADHD is no filter, no, no brakes, and you have an brain of an engine of a Ferrari and bicycle brakes, and you kinda have to deal with that on a regular basis.
• 10:12
  And if you receive the tools, which I taught myself once I got through the burnout, when I, when I got the coaching education, when I started working on myself, when I received so, so much support from others.
• 10:23
  Now I'm, let's say, in the stage where I'm kind of managing my ADHD, but it's already almost five, four, four years later. And if that started in my teens, early teens, how much more different my life could have been.
• 10:37
  Yeah. And it's so common I hear of particularly like a woman to get diagnosed much later. A woman to get diagnosed much later because we at so much earlier are getting
• 10:50
  signals from our society that we need to behave, that we cannot be like the ones who are, like misbehaving boys. We need to be the good girls. Mm-hmm.
• 11:00
  And we learn masking so much better and so much earlier that so many women are cannot be diagnosed anymore because they are masking so b- so, so well. Mm.
• 11:10
  And quite often it only gets out, just like in my case, once we get into the perimenopause.
• 11:15
  Then we, then the protecting estro- estrogen that was there before to help us is just basically not there anymore, and then we cannot hide anymore. We cannot mask anymore. It just will fall apart. Yeah.
• 11:27
  And so if someone is listening to this, male, female, or other, who is kind of recognizing themselves in where you were maybe, you know, 10 years ago, what kind of advice would you give to them?
• 11:39
  Or what, what would you recommend to help them kind of move to the place that you're in now? I don't want them to get through the same that I did. That's why I also am talking about the topic of neurodiversity.
• 11:49
  I don't want people to get into a burnout first before, or a depression. But it's quite often the first diagnosis that the people get. Mm.
• 11:57
  Uh, the so-called comorbidities are quite common in neurodivergent people, and quite often the first diagnosis that they receive are depression, anxiety, sleeplessness, burnout because they are masking, and this costs so much energies they cannot function anymore normally.
• 12:13
  Normally, whatever that normally might be. That's just another big question. I encourage people to- Listen to their, their body and listen to themselves in a way not necessarily...
• 12:25
  There's this joke, if ADHD per- person should never listen to the body because I would- if I listened to my body, I would not eat and I would not sleep because I would be so excited about so many things and forget about so many things.
• 12:36
  But be careful, be cautious. Sleep is so important. This was my, my first thing to go whenever I go in overdrive mode, into the burnout mode. I, I am so much more diligent with my sleep now.
• 12:48
  I pay attention to how you react, pay attention to what helps you to calm down, pay attention w- to what your strengths are, and find out what they are, and try not to balance out your weaknesses. Mm.
• 13:01
  This also, this is also the coaching approach why, why I f- find myself reconfirmed over and over again that I went into the coaching space, that
• 13:10
  working with strengths, working with what's working, working with support and not with self-punishment, self-deprecation, and discipline. It doesn't work.
• 13:21
  It needs to be a space of pull and not a space of push where you're going. And w- when you transitioned into this kind of more becoming a coach, what have you learned about that?
• 13:33
  Because I know there's a lot of folks, particularly in the community, who are either on their coaching journey, have been a coach for a few years, and who might be listening to this thinking, "Ah, it'd be really great to hear from another coach."
• 13:45
  So is there anything that you've learned from that transition into becoming a coach? Uh, what was helpful for me is to accept that I do not necessarily fit in a regular
• 13:57
  9:00 to 5:00 corporate, corporal world environment because, as a ADHD person, I am not able to deliver a consistently 9:00 to 5:00 high performance or performance per se. What I can do
• 14:13
  for myself is, what I learned, is I am amazing in, in pulses. So the, if there needs, needs a pulse of creativity, a pulse of energy, a pulse of hard work that needs- Mm...
• 14:24
  to be accomplished over a short time where solutions need to be found that are not necessarily your standard ones, I am your woman. Mm.
• 14:32
  If you need me to sort through, uh, Excel tables and cr- criteria and fill it in, I- [laughs] Yeah, I'm not necessarily the happiest person, and you would not receive the best quality of work from me. Yeah.
• 14:46
  That's the thing. So learning to work with my own energy, to understand where I work best and understand where I do not work best, and accept that- Mm... this was the biggest step for me.
• 14:59
  And stop punishing myself for when I'm not performing like others, because I'm not like others. Mm-hmm. And we are all individuals, and nobody is like your average person.
• 15:10
  I haven't heard that language used before of pulse, but it g- it gives me a really strong visual. It's like, yes, like a blood flow, like a pump. I'm curious if this is something that you use, like, externally.
• 15:24
  Say if you're trying to get a job or if you're, like, pitching yourself, would that be the kind of language that... Would you use this outwardly to kinda describe the value that you bring?
• 15:33
  Well, th- this is how I organize my work. My work right now as a s- freelance coach is not like that I work every day from 9:00 to 5:00, but it's that, that, okay, I have a project, I need to prepare for that.
• 15:45
  And when I, I need to prepare for the project, I pull in the energy and this is how it works. And also, this is how I, uh, well, when I advertise myself for, for a job, uh, w- this is what I tell.
• 15:55
  You will not get a person from me who will follow the rules. Uh, you will not get a person when you hire me who will be always saying yes and delivering your routine tasks every day. You need somebody who can
• 16:10
  solve a difficult problem in the shortest time? Mm. I can do that. Yeah. You need somebody who can come up with an idea nobody ever thought before of, connecting all the sciences that come in your mind? Yes, this is me.
• 16:24
  You need somebody who needs to do deep research for a short time and do the... and s- find something out? Yes, I can do that. You need somebody who writes and routinely reports on performance of, uh...
• 16:34
  [laughs] Can't even say it. I get a, I get a visceral reaction to that. Yeah. [laughs] Looking back into my career development, it all makes sense after I got my ADHD diagnosis. Mm.
• 16:47
  Because I picked biotechnology engineering as my degree because I could not pick one science, because I love them all. It's mathematics, it's physics, it's chemistry, it's biology, it's processes, it's everything. Mm.
• 17:00
  I could have it all, and I am basically, I am the interface between all the sciences. Mm. And I speak all the languages, and I can translate between them.
• 17:08
  And with my life over time, basically I started also speaking literal different languages, and I can translate between them. Mm.
• 17:14
  I translate between cultures because I lived in so many cultures, and this is one of, of the mindsets that I have, basically. I can be the interconnector all over the place, and it's easy for me switching back and forth.
• 17:27
  For many people, it's difficult to adjust between different groups of people. I, I can work with kids, I can work with scientists, I can work with [laughs] nerds, I can work with, uh, very stern people.
• 17:37
  I can do anything. I can adjust to them, and I draw the energy from those interactions. Mm. But at the same time, I can be very introverted. Mm-hmm.
• 17:46
  Where basically when I outspend all of my energy out there, I need to be by myself, and I don't want to interact with anybody. I'm curious, do you see your neurodiversity as a superpower or not? Yes and no.
• 18:00
  Put in the right context, it is a superpower. However, if put in, in the context where everybody has to be functioning a certain way, no.
• 18:07
  That's why, like, there is this whole mindset about do we talk about neurodiversity as a disease? Like, there's ADHD is a disorder, autistic spectrum disorder. You're dyslexia, you're dyscalculia.
• 18:22
  It's something that's- Mm... it's something is missing. Mm.
• 18:23
  It's a mindset of ableism that's already when you describe those, those states of mind or neurological states of mind because it's all comes from the neuronormative world that where we live in.
• 18:35
  Where neurotypical, whatever that might be, the neurotypical is the standard, and we are deviations from that. That's why there's the world neurodiversity and there is the world neurodivergence.
• 18:47
  Basically, you are divergent from the norm. Mm.
• 18:50
  And when we talk about, like, do you provide the right space for me to work in, then I'm a superpower, and then I'm your superwoman, Wonder Woman, Supergirl, whatever you wanna call me.
• 18:59
  You put me into a rigid environment where it's all about what needs to be done without understanding why and how is- as it's been done, then I'm gonna be... I'm not working well. Mm. So that's why depending on how you...
• 19:14
  what's your take on it, it can be a superpower because even, let's say, ADHD people called the attention deficit, but I don't have an attention deficit.
• 19:23
  I just have a difficulty focusing on the things that people tell me to do. Mm. But if I find it interesting myself, if it's difficult, if it's urgent, if it's interesting, I'm in. If it's money, I don't care. Yeah.
• 19:37
  If my boss thinks it's important or somebody important thinks it's important, I don't care, because if I don't see a meaning in that, it doesn't matter.
• 19:45
  And it's a big s- big chunk, group of neurodiverse people are working this way, that hierarchy doesn't matter. Your money doesn't matter. I need a purpose. Mm.
• 19:55
  I need a purpose, and I need to understand why it's important. Then I will do it. Then I will work day and night on that. How do we better design companies to facilitate and make space for this, right?
• 20:06
  Because to me, it just seems so silly, like, that we're forcing people into boxes that doesn't work for them, and therefore they're not doing their best work and getting bored out or burnt out even worse.
• 20:19
  And we're also missing out on, like, this extreme gift, this extreme talent to think outside the box, come up with these solutions to work like a pulse, you know?
• 20:30
  So it's a very big question, but do you have any hunches on how we might better design companies, organizations to facilitate and, like, y- make space for this way of thinking?
• 20:43
  Number one is it starts with the culture, and it always starts with a culture of inclusion, where people can come as they are to work.
• 20:53
  And I know that the United States, the current government, uses DEI as a curse word and to offend people, but I believe in DEI. Mm. Diversity, equity, inclusion, and B is the others belonging.
• 21:05
  If people feel like they belong, they come as the best, and if they feel that they need to hide to ask for extras just to work, then this becomes a space where they don't feel like they belong.
• 21:20
  And this is where it's important to provide all the possible means to the people for them to be able to work comfortably and provide it to all so they don't have to specifically ask for it.
• 21:33
  For example, your spe- speech recognition software that has to be available to everybody, they don't have to ask or to explain why.
• 21:41
  Your, I don't know, your noise cans- canceling headphones that need to be available to everybody, not just for people who are noise sensitive. Your adjustable lighting has to be there because- Mm...
• 21:52
  there are so many highly sensitive. Like in my home, the big light is the evil light. Only corner lights and only indirect lighting, this is how I work.
• 21:59
  But this is, this is a common thing about many neurodi- diverse people. Or that there is new software out there that you can use to create project plans without going through line by line.
• 22:10
  You create a concept, and basically the software translates it for you into a project plan. For people who are not into that but see the whole thing, not the detail, for them to be able to see, to, to adjust it.
• 22:22
  So it, it's, it's a number of tools that need to be available to everybody. Or I don't know, standing desks. Standing desk, adjustable standing desks for, for people who cannot sit still.
• 22:32
  Don't expect people to sit through a meeting. It's okay to, to get up, and don't judge for them. And it all starts usually with role modeling it. When I'm in a space, anywhere I am, people know I am...
• 22:43
  I have ADHD, and I, I, I open the door with that for people to- Mm... basically to, to, to give them the safe space to maybe open themselves. Mm.
• 22:52
  Ever since I started opening about my mel- mental health problems, I had so many people who came to me and said, "Oh my goodness, this is so brave of you.
• 22:59
  I would never, ever dare to say that, but I am as well this and this and this." Or even a senior manager in the company where I used to work came to me when I started the activity.
• 23:10
  In my last year there, basically, we started founding the neurodiversity employee resource group. We started basically communication that we wanted people to enroll.
• 23:19
  He reached out to me and said, "Well, I know you're personal. I wanted to tell you that I am on the autistic spectrum, but in my position I would never dare to say it openly." He was a vice president something. Wow.
• 23:30
  And there are so many people that are in the neurodiverse space, either from birth on or acquired, because there's this also another topic that we [laughs] can talk about for hours, that are hiding
• 23:44
  in the plain sight, but they are hiding and don't dare to open up. Just like for the longest time, children used to be punished for writing with the left hand.
• 23:53
  Just like at least out in the majority of the Western c- society countries, people used to be punished from being anywhere on the LGBTQI letter collection.
• 24:04
  Neurodiversity is one of the things that people are still hiding. And who knows- Mm... what else is out there that people are hiding? 20% of people are born with a neurodiverse mind. Mm.
• 24:15
  It's your autistic people, it's your ADHDS, it's your neurodyslexic, dyspraxic, highly sensitive people. 20% is current estimate. Then as you grow and live and experience life, you develop your mental health disorders.
• 24:31
  You, you maybe have an accident. You have maybe a trauma that you experience. Mm. And then basically it come- compiles and comes on and, and at some point, once w- we as women go through perimenopause-
• 24:45
  This is also a major change to the brain, and it, it changes dramatically. So there are assumptions in certain publications that at, it's a certain time point, 50% of all humanity is neurodiverse.
• 24:57
  Then the question is, like, why are we still hiding this? And why are we still pretending there is a typical thing that's out there? We are all different. There- We are all individuals, and it needs to be supported.
• 25:09
  Yeah. I assume you know, uh, you know of, uh, Dr. Gabor Mate's work. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah.
• 25:16
  I remember he was the first person that, that coined this for me in that he was like, you know, if it is like, I think his estimate was 40% of the population is neurodiverse in some way, that's not a disorder.
• 25:28
  That's just, it's just different. It's simply a divergence, and I love that difference. It's just like your two genders.
• 25:35
  Like, why, why, why is male the standard, the default, when the majority of people are female on this planet? [laughs] It is standardized to male. Sure. And but then also at the same time, nature is not black and white.
• 25:47
  It has shade. Mm. That's why we don't only have two genders. We have fluidity in between. Yeah. And it's the same with n- neurodiversity. Like, you start as one, and maybe you develop into something else.
• 25:58
  Gabor Mate also coined this, this statement that ADHD is a purely trauma-based background, and I- Oh, interesting... in the research that I read, I disagree with that. Basically- Mm...
• 26:09
  yes, trauma can make your symptoms worse. Not receiving proper treatment and support can make your symptoms worse. Sure. But the cause is not 100% there. Mm. There's a lot of hereditary background to that. Yeah.
• 26:22
  Oh, I mean, there's so much to this, right? We could, we could- [laughs] I know... really, like, w- That's a big, it's a big topic.
• 26:27
  But one, one thing I would love to ask you, I'm curious about your perspective, is from, from where you're sitting, do you have any predictions?
• 26:35
  What are your predictions of, predictions or, like, strong hunches of what might be coming? Innovation happens at the fringes of society, and neurodiverse, diverse people are at the fringes of society. And I think
• 26:51
  if there is a rescue for humanity, it's gonna be the neurodivergent people who are gonna be- Mm... saving the humanity. It's a big statement, but [laughs] I want to believe in it. Yeah.
• 27:02
  Because the thinking outside of the box, the connecting of different spheres that we haven't considered, the sense of justice- Mm...
• 27:12
  that's in- innate to so many neurodiverse, diverse people, and the belief that if things have to be right, then the- I will make them right. I will not follow rules that don't make sense to me. Yeah.
• 27:25
  And this is the energy, right? Well, this is the energy we, we truly need at the moment when we are living- Mm... in this world of, of many collapsing systems all simultaneously at the same time.
• 27:36
  And we need to collaborate, and we need to connect, and we need to embrace all of us because we will not be able to solve this polycrisis that is- Yeah... coming our way by ourselves or simply through money.
• 27:47
  We need everybody, and we need everybody, everybody, everybody to join. Yeah. Not just the white men who have the money. [laughs] For anyone who can't see, if you're listening, I'm waving my hands in the air.
• 27:58
  Anna, I wonder, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you really wish you had a chance to speak about while everyone is tuned in and listening? I would like to encourage people to follow their stims.
• 28:13
  It's weird to, to say that. Like some people say follow their dreams, but follow your stims is in the end is basically those stims are helping you regulate your nervous system. If it's moving, then move.
• 28:25
  If it's humming, then hum. If it's climbing, then climb. If it's drawing, then draw and paint or cook or whatever you need to stimulate your, your... or help your nervous system to, to be where it's happy, then do that.
• 28:41
  Hmm. Is that where stims comes from? Is it from the word stimulate? Yeah. Yeah. Ha. There you go. Dot connected. [laughs] Anna, this has been so eye-opening. Thank you for being so open, firstly.
• 28:54
  I know to come to where you are has come from what I feel like has been, like, a lot of pain, and you've been able to, to move with that, so kudos and thank you for sharing so openly.
• 29:06
  We will add your links, so if people want to get in touch and ask more questions and connect, as you said, we need everyone on board. We'll, we will try and facilitate this connection, so thank you for taking the time.
• 29:19
  You're very, very welcome.