Latest / The Business of Alignment - Powered by The E1B2 Collective / Talking Employee Experience w/ Karen Jaw-Madson

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Talking Employee Experience w/ Karen Jaw-Madson · The Business of Alignment - Powered by The E1B2 Collective

• 0:02
  Okay, and like I said, this is laid back, so we can just
• 0:05
  literally pick up where we started.
• 0:07
  But, um, but no tell me about tell me about your friend.
• 0:11
  That's considering like a Content acquisition play.
• 0:15
  I definitely have some thoughts and then we can hop into some
• 0:19
  intros and that whole thing. Yeah, I he has a book, he has a
• 0:24
  podcast, he has a bunch of online courses and so that
• 0:29
  catalog to your point earlier about, you know, Ow.
• 0:32
  Music catalogs gets old. He's looking to do with or to
• 0:38
  sell that content to to a new owner.
• 0:43
  Are you comfortable sharing a thing?
• 0:46
  Yeah, probably not. I'm recording.
• 0:48
  I can connect you with him though.
• 0:49
  If you think there's an interest in talking to each other.
• 0:52
  Okay, yeah. All right.
• 0:53
  Well if you don't want to share his name directly, are you
• 0:56
  comfortable sharing? Will you please share with me
• 0:58
  off all for courting but you come to the floor to get his
• 1:01
  permission? Yeah.
• 1:03
  Are you comfortable sharing the, the region of business and
• 1:07
  space, and topics that he covers?
• 1:09
  Yeah, it's, it's generally leadership.
• 1:13
  I also know somebody else who's building out some YouTube
• 1:15
  channels and apparently there's some marketplaces for Content.
• 1:20
  So that's another Channel perhaps for him.
• 1:22
  I just haven't had a chance to look into it.
• 1:25
  Yeah, and and so he has a podcast.
• 1:30
  Hmm. Several yes, several podcasts
• 1:33
  underneath of the Sunbrella. He has a book, A book and online
• 1:40
  courses. So I hope Form around it, and
• 1:44
  what's and does he have metrics in understanding of the
• 1:48
  consistent? Yeah, I mean, we were just
• 1:51
  talking casually because he told me he's sharing with me for me
• 1:55
  to keep an ear out. So this is how I up to you.
• 1:58
  He gave me some general valuations from his perspective
• 2:01
  of what what it's worth but you know, how you being a content
• 2:06
  creator yourself, how valuable that can be and yeah, be well.
• 2:12
  Well, Purposed to, in different ways.
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  So, even one good piece of content could be repurposed and
• 2:19
  a whole bunch of different ways and disseminated.
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  So I think there's there's definitely a lot of intrinsic
• 2:25
  value in that. Yeah.
• 2:29
  Well a couple things number one and I'm sure this is what he's
• 2:31
  already thought about and this would be good for anyone
• 2:33
  listening because I think well actually let me give you this
• 2:37
  before, I even get too deep into this particular individual.
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  The the reason why I the reason why we did and that was another
• 2:45
  thing like we actually did successfully sign it and
• 2:49
  transfer it over and did a couple things.
• 2:52
  And the reason why we did that is because I've always said
• 2:58
  this, I believe in this is actually how this is cool.
• 3:03
  You may want to tell them this and like me, you may want to
• 3:05
  clip this in like send this to him.
• 3:07
  Actually I'll talk Karen is if I'm talking directly to him and
• 3:11
  maybe so so yeah. What have been just the
• 3:17
  beginning of it. So whole here, right?
• 3:20
  So sir, if you're listening, here's what I think you could
• 3:24
  do. And this is something that I
• 3:25
  think a lot of people don't think about there are a ton of
• 3:30
  if he's in the leadership space. There's a ton of HR Tech
• 3:35
  business. Like, HR Tech leadership Tech
• 3:40
  type companies out here that should be doing things from a
• 3:45
  Content perspective that they're simply not, but they have a
• 3:48
  strong desire to whether they are just lazy or whether they
• 3:54
  had don't have the motivation to do it.
• 3:56
  They don't have the internal bandwidth and capacity to do it.
• 3:59
  Whatever. The reason is that was kind of
• 4:02
  how I got my foot in the door to be able to give my podcast
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  required. When I did is This particular
• 4:08
  company that you and I were talking about offline, they
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  wanted to capitalize, make an aggressive play on the
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  offensive, offensive side of things around content, and they
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  knew that their aggressive play with the new Services.
• 4:23
  They were going to roll out the way they were going to try to
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  capitalize in the market. They knew they wasn't that was
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  going to be led and driven by a lot of content.
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  And I think there's a lot of other HR Tech or leadership
• 4:32
  based companies out there that also would like to go about that
• 4:36
  particular, Strategy and play as well.
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  And so that would be an area that I think he probably hasn't
• 4:42
  thought about. We're having a company like a
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  Like you knowing this individual.
• 4:50
  What's like, a HR tech company knowing his content that if they
• 4:54
  acquired his content would roll it out and probably capitalize
• 4:59
  on the audience and fan base, that he has.
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  Because because remember, if an HR Tech or leadership Tech based
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  company acquires his content overnight, they can take
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  whatever product they had and plug it right into that
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  community and get extreme extremely beneficial dividend
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  from that. I think that's a great starting
• 5:19
  point. I think.
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  Also that leadership being such a universal.
• 5:24
  Yep. Need and concept and applicable.
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  You know, their applicability is obviously Universal as well.
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  Yes. That it doesn't necessarily need
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  to be HR Tech or leadership Tech.
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  Yeah, I've seen, you know, other SAS companies who are not
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  directly involved in those Industries.
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  Also release content in these spaces, No, that's a really good
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  lead. And the other one was that there
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  are Brokers out there that deal with digital Assets in terms of
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  selling buying and selling them being the middle men with that
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  because they have access to knowing who's, who's buying and
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  who's selling. So that's also another Channel.
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  But I'll definitely, I think this is great, I'm going to have
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  them. Yeah, the beginning here at the
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  mentlemen, I think I'll, you know, I'll ping them and see if
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  yeah, we should get together and talk.
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  But what are your thoughts on that?
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  Just like, not talking about him directly because I guess my
• 6:22
  final thoughts and him directly and then what are your thoughts
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  when that tragedy you overall? The reason why it's beneficial
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  is everyone that's listening to your podcast.
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  If like you said a company in general, could that, that
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  content is very applicable. Or again, an HR leadership Tech
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  based company. What that company may do a, it
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  could be a very seamless plug-and-play to the Listeners
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  of the podcast, or the, the readers of the book or, or the,
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  I'm not sure if he has an email newsletter or I'm sure he has
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  some sort of understanding and calculation of his audience.
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  We are. If they were to acquire that
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  whole package they could do a quick Plug and Play.
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  We're let's just say they acquire his catalog for a
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  million dollars. They could easily get five to
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  ten million dollars in perpetuity on that base off.
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  Off of, you know, mean just that quick Plug and Play because of
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  the because because because of the similarities of what how
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  that content could be applicable but having a company.
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  No God no. I'm a big believer in content
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  marketing. I mean, I think our advertising
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  has evolved as an industry and can, you know, customers whether
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  their businesses or consumers themselves, you know, want to be
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  engaged. And In different ways than they
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  have been in the past and content is one of them is
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  through. Yeah, you don't want to be
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  entertained or they want to be educated.
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  So I think something that late like leadership content is
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  something that everyone can benefit from and can speak to
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  it. So yeah, I am totally in line
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  with you AJ. There's definitely a connection
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  points to be made. I myself love Partnerships and
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  collaboration so it doesn't have to be a straight up.
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  You know, sell the content or the catalog, it could be
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  licensed. Yes also been I've been
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  commissioned to develop content for for companies.
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  So that's another way of doing it as well so there's all
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  different ways in which we can capitalize on our Creations.
• 8:36
  Right. So I'm a big believer in what
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  you're saying. Yep.
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  And that's the last thing I'll say and then we'll just we'll
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  jump to will jump to your background in your intro here.
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  Caring there we would love to love to know who who I'm
• 8:50
  speaking to here. But ya know the licensing factor
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  is another one. I was going to say to wear it
• 8:57
  for whatever reason. He has a desire to not be done
• 9:04
  with it forever. I could easily see a, you know,
• 9:07
  one to two-year licensing play, We're he like, you know, he just
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  rinse it out, gets a nice little amount of money upfront and
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  then, you know, you know, Maintain to ownership.
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  I've seen a lot of musical artists do that.
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  Do that all for no one could. Now you're just toggling your
• 9:24
  money off them. You could just do that for the
• 9:26
  next 15 years. You could just off and on
• 9:28
  toggle, 122 your licensing plays off and on, for the next in
• 9:32
  perpetuity right. And work, yeah, effort that went
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  into creating that and and the unique perspective they have it
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  is valuable and you should as such So what's to tell us?
• 9:48
  Tell us who tell us, who tell us, who's the voice behind the
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  voice behind, who's the person behind his voice whoo-hoo into
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  today? Yeah, I'm Karen.
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  John Madsen. I'm the principal of my own firm
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  called co.design of work experience.
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  I'm an author. My book is called culture
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  culture, innovating experiences that work.
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  I've done a few other, speaking of collaboration, five other
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  book, Objects with colleagues of mine, which I invite you to
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  check out. I'm the founder of a future of
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  work platform called a new out HR.
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  That's just a side passion project for me.
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  I do it a lot of Executive coaching and I also teach
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  part-time through Stanford University's continuing studies
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  program as well as I'm involved with Santa Clara University's
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  women's corporate board Readiness program.
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  I spend most of my time in one of four buckets, One is coaching
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  and developing leadership and their teams the other is around
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  enabling organizations to leverage culture, D, EI axis and
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  belonging and employee experience.
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  The third is optimizing Talent. That's aligning people which
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  strategy for results and then The Fourth Kind of cuts across
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  all the others, but is a lot of work on its own is driving,
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  change management, and transformation.
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  So that's that's me in a nutshell, you know, I II and
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  we'll get into this, because I know you asked me, what are you
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  working on lately? I tend to have a long list but
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  I'm focused on three to five at a given time and that and I've
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  been independent for 9 years now, but I grew up started out
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  and nonprofit program management and grew up in h.r. before I
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  decided to get off that train, you know, as a corporate
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  executive and and I love entrepreneurship.
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  So I live Out here in the Bay Area.
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  Now I'm also involved with startups and Advising them as
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  well and I'm a big believer and supporter of founders of color
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  especially Very interesting background.
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  Yeah. And you're very, you're very
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  giving, you know, you're so busy, but you're very giving
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  with your time, you know. I know it's hard to get a hold
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  of you some time, but once you do, you're not, you're not one
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  to say, hey, I got a tight 15 minute window.
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  Go, you know you you're very you're very giving with your
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  time. Thank you.
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  I endeavoured to be present for everyone.
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  I'm with right and it doesn't matter what else is going on in
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  my life. I in the moment, I always try to
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  be Present with who I am. Yeah, right now, like I want to
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  be 100% focused on you on a percent.
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  I appreciate that. So I guess I start this way.
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  This is something that's top of mind for me, and actually
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  personal to me. So, you know, with, with the e1b
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  to Collective, as I've kind of explain to you the format and
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  structure of it, you know, it's me at the center.
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  Then there's a lot of different things happening kind of similar
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  to you, right? Whether Couple brands that I've
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  independently and originally started or brands that I have
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  some equity in, and I take a role in one of the most recent
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  brands that I took some equity in it.
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  A role in was a company called Benny.
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  They were, they were VC back, they were innovating the
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  employee benefit sector. Essentially at a very simple
• 13:23
  level, what they were doing is they felt that employee benefits
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  were not contextual enough If they felt that, adding the way
• 13:31
  employee benefits were structured, that most employees
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  were only given access to be able to tap into your medical
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  and dental. But like things, like, you know,
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  you're lsh lifestyle, benefit. We're not, we're not taking into
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  account and what? And what we defined in a
• 13:52
  lifestyle benefit was, you know, in months, January, February and
• 13:57
  March My wife and I are going through a hard time right now.
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  So I would like to take a certain amount of dollars at the
• 14:04
  company decides to allocate towards me and I would like to
• 14:08
  take those dollars and allocate it towards a therapist, right?
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  And tap in to that part of my lifestyle for a bit and get that
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  and get that part cleared up for me.
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  Now, the things are better with my wife.
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  I like to look at the the the back end of the next quarter.
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  And I lied to tap into attending some Ian's games are like that
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  tap tap into tackling my own personal and learning
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  development, whatever. The case is going to be.
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  And so we had a tool and a technology to kind of toggle
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  that and and project manage and administer, all of that, and run
• 14:45
  that process. And that that app that function,
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  that technology is Ran by A lot of cheap people officers, you
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  know, recruiters head to town, people, internally to kind of
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  make sure that the employees As they were hired into companies,
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  were able to get access to a certain amount of dollars per
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  month that they could allocate towards these lifestyle benefits
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  or whatever. They deem was important to them,
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  right? So that's the gist of it, right?
• 15:15
  Very interesting company. Very important.
• 15:18
  I think. Yeah, I think there's a lot of
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  aspects of the employee experience things like benefits
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  that are typically administered. Goodbye HR now, increasingly out
• 15:30
  sourced. I think don't necessarily meet
• 15:34
  the meet needs of the people, right?
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  So I love hearing about that description.
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  I've come across a number of other startups that are trying
• 15:43
  to solve that problem is, you know, how do you not treat
• 15:46
  everybody the same way? Because it, and when you, and I
• 15:49
  drew this in my work, right? When you know, if you talk about
• 15:53
  the same thing for everybody, it's mostly little bit wrong.
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  Everyone, right? I am a big believer in making
• 16:03
  sure that that deep understanding of human needs
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  should be front and center. So I'm a big human-centered
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  design person and so when I hear you talking about disrupting
• 16:15
  current paradigms and I'll talk more about that when it comes to
• 16:19
  my work. I'm all for you know,
• 16:21
  questioning the status quo and seeing how how we can improve
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  100% And so So here's the question that I wanted to bring
• 16:29
  up the, why I brought that, that particular company up, you know?
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  So the way that that company worked and I want to and I want
• 16:36
  to get your honest opinion on, if you've been hearing about
• 16:39
  this recently but the way that company worked is we didn't
• 16:45
  actually make any money, right? So the company, very, similar to
• 16:48
  what we were talking about offline.
• 16:50
  The company, when I mean make money meaning we're not
• 16:52
  profited, right? So each month the company was
• 16:55
  surviving and thriving off of. The runway that we had available
• 16:59
  to us, right? A lot of our money was being
• 17:03
  obviously dumped into product, our team, our sales Partnerships
• 17:07
  and we were just trying to get to the next iteration of the
• 17:10
  product. The next phase of the brand
• 17:12
  which as you know, this is traditional for lots of lots of
• 17:16
  startups. I was furloughed from that
• 17:21
  opportunity because remember, the way my Collective a
• 17:23
  structured, I take equity and have a title, but I'm also
• 17:26
  internally in dear as well, right?
• 17:29
  So I was furloughed from the neck from that opportunity
• 17:33
  because of the following factors.
• 17:36
  At you may have an opinion on the this pending or looming
• 17:41
  recession. That and I want to get your
• 17:45
  honest opinion is debatable if we're seeing any tangible.
• 17:50
  Things yet from it. But we're, it's debatable.
• 17:53
  And and I want to get your honest opinion on that first and
• 17:55
  foremost, but it's debatable. If we're, if we're actually in
• 17:58
  it yet, if it's coming when it's coming, if it's already came,
• 18:02
  whatever the case is going to be, but a lot of the investors
• 18:05
  actually put a freeze, a quite literal freeze to All Things
• 18:12
  Benny meaning they cannot do anything.
• 18:17
  Meaning they can't spend a dollar meaning they They froze,
• 18:21
  all operations. Everything gets everything is
• 18:24
  put at a hold for a minute until until things kind of figure
• 18:31
  themselves out. What are your thoughts on that
• 18:37
  overall and how do you think that's going to impact?
• 18:42
  A couple different factors. How do you think that's going to
• 18:44
  impact some things internally like change management like
• 18:48
  Communications employee experience, fear leadership?
• 18:53
  Communicate, a lot of different factors with many companies that
• 18:56
  are much larger than the company I was working for.
• 18:59
  So I know I've said a lot, I know the actual couple different
• 19:01
  questions, but I think on the front end of the question, what
• 19:05
  are your thoughts on how things just got, put to a halt based
• 19:09
  off of the investors and the control they have of the The
• 19:12
  company and how they're looking at things and how they're
• 19:15
  fearful of what's potentially here or coming through this
• 19:20
  recession. And then, what are your thoughts
• 19:21
  on? How companies are now going to
• 19:23
  be reacting and gearing up to handle this.
• 19:28
  Looming recession, from an engagement perspective, change
• 19:30
  management, Communications things of that nature.
• 19:34
  That was a lot, but just take it away.
• 19:37
  It was a lot. So I'll also free Warm and I'll
• 19:39
  address different aspects of it because this is extremely
• 19:42
  complex and there are a lot of factors at play here.
• 19:44
  Yes. Are we in a recession?
• 19:47
  I'm not an economist. I think there are factors
• 19:50
  indicating some sort of course correction in different pockets
• 19:53
  of the economy. Yes there's a there's been a lot
• 19:57
  more pull back on the investment side of things.
• 20:00
  I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing.
• 20:05
  I think my my whole thing has always been about About making
• 20:09
  sure we systemically increase access because that's where it
• 20:15
  is unfair. But having more stringent
• 20:20
  thresholds, or requirements for companies to Warrant additional
• 20:28
  investment. I don't know if that's
• 20:30
  necessarily a bad thing, because I saw a lot of money that went
• 20:33
  toward things that maybe it shouldn't have in the past.
• 20:37
  All right, so a lot of this were Talking about his decision bias
• 20:40
  that that shows up all over the place, you know?
• 20:47
  In terms of a larger companies, what's going on?
• 20:49
  I had a colleague, a friend of mine sent me several tweets
• 20:56
  today of a bunch of layoffs happening in different companies
• 21:01
  in the same industry all on the same day and I kind of was like
• 21:04
  what they like coordinate together or something.
• 21:07
  Yep. So I think right now some of
• 21:10
  this correction. I think the reasons why they're
• 21:13
  happening varies by My company and but they have to get really
• 21:19
  clear on what they're doing and why, and how they're leading
• 21:21
  through those transitions because it's not I think the
• 21:25
  disruption is happening in a way that's not necessarily
• 21:28
  increasing performance engagement and productivity,
• 21:32
  it's actually hurting it, right? And so if we know from research
• 21:38
  that the lifeblood of a business is people and we're laying off
• 21:41
  more people than we should, you're hurting your business.
• 21:45
  You're not saving your business, you're hurting your business.
• 21:48
  So there's there's all different factors here, a lot of
• 21:51
  complexities to sort through, when it comes to that absolutely
• 21:55
  changed management. Focusing.
• 21:57
  Also not only on being compassionate to those that are
• 22:00
  being impacted, but also those that are left behind the
• 22:05
  survivors with survivor's guilt. How do you react, how do you
• 22:11
  cultivate a culture when morale is Hello, these are great
• 22:16
  excuses to re-engage with your employees.
• 22:20
  So I think there's a lot in here right now, in this stew, that's
• 22:25
  going on as much as there's been a lot of layoffs.
• 22:29
  I'm still seeing a lot of hiring going on even this time of year.
• 22:34
  And so, I really my advice to individuals who are going
• 22:38
  through, all these types of transitions either in their own
• 22:40
  lives, or around them is to remain flexible in their
• 22:44
  thinking. And this is not the time for
• 22:46
  fixed mindsets but to focus on possibilities because with all
• 22:52
  of this change comes opportunities, but you have to
• 22:55
  be open and willing to even see them and be willing to take them
• 23:00
  when they come in front of you. So that would be my best piece
• 23:03
  of advice there. Let's unpack this a little bit
• 23:07
  further yet because that that was helpful.
• 23:11
  Do you think? And you kind of already answered
• 23:15
  it. So that's kind of go like one by
• 23:17
  one here. Like maybe give a give like
• 23:19
  little, like, very direct answers or perspectives, do you
• 23:24
  personally think we are in it now?
• 23:28
  No. Do you think?
• 23:33
  There's enough side of the street just had its best week in
• 23:36
  months. I think, you know.
• 23:38
  Yeah, so so what's happening in people everyday?
• 23:42
  People's lives is different than was necessarily happening in the
• 23:45
  markets and that's what I'm saying, right?
• 23:48
  So, like, two companies as small as Benny, which you know which
• 23:53
  had about three million dollars, are funding Frozen to his
• 23:57
  companies as large as Twitter that, you know, laid off, what
• 24:02
  was it? 10, 15. 15,000 employees.
• 24:05
  Why do you and then everything in between?
• 24:09
  Why do you think they're doing that in this now connected to
• 24:14
  this potential looming? We are in.
• 24:17
  We're about to be in. We're already in recession.
• 24:21
  What what what do you think is the reason behind it at a human
• 24:25
  level and at a at a tangible proof level the like because
• 24:29
  that was that was my biggest thing and I'll just be very
• 24:32
  candid oil industry. Morning.
• 24:33
  Like, I was good, please. I'll reduce it down to failures
• 24:37
  of leadership, period. Okay, why would I do all of
• 24:41
  this? Because all, I mean, we're
• 24:42
  perfectly. One of my favorite quotes is
• 24:44
  where perfectly designed for our current results, right?
• 24:48
  And we saw that with the downfall of FTX recently, as
• 24:52
  well, right? They were set up to fail and at
• 24:56
  by their own by their own decisions.
• 24:58
  And so I really do feel that everything we're seeing here.
• 25:01
  Now, on the Company sides, the startup side, the investor sides
• 25:06
  are failures of leadership and we can do better, we can do
• 25:11
  better. I mean there are good examples
• 25:13
  out there but I think this desire to learn through all
• 25:17
  this, I think needs to be more front and center than it is
• 25:20
  these day. Now for your particular you
• 25:23
  mentioned Benny was it? Yeah.
• 25:27
  I know that there are a number of other startups that are
• 25:30
  trying to tackle these same issues and I'm a big believer in
• 25:34
  liquid networks. That's uh Steve Johnson's book
• 25:36
  around where we're good ideas come from.
• 25:39
  I think was his book and that's basically what are the
• 25:43
  conditions for Innovation. I think there's opportunity.
• 25:46
  I we always talk about competing with each other's opportunities
• 25:49
  for collaboration and Partnerships and so I'm not and
• 25:53
  I don't know how we unrealistic it is but I'm of the belief is
• 25:56
  why? Explore Partnerships with other
• 25:59
  startups that maybe have half an idea and another slice of the
• 26:03
  market and that what would it look like to combine forces to
• 26:08
  be able to move things forward? So on where we're off your, I'll
• 26:12
  definitely try to pull up some names for you, please benefit to
• 26:18
  just exploring it. Please, cuz let's like just for,
• 26:22
  you know, another 30 seconds. I can I can give you even more
• 26:25
  context to see if they'll help. Help any listeners or just help
• 26:28
  me right? Like the, the tangible answer
• 26:30
  that we were given that I was given was the following, they
• 26:34
  don't believe that. They don't believe that there's
• 26:40
  going to be enough Industries and enough companies at scale
• 26:46
  that are going to be hiring they believe.
• 26:48
  And this was all prediction based.
• 26:50
  And that was my, obviously, my biggest frustration, right?
• 26:53
  But they don't believe that it's gonna be enough Industries and
• 26:56
  enough. Is hiring.
• 26:58
  And even if those companies are going to be hiring, they believe
• 27:02
  is going to be a hoarding, or a freezing, or a very strategic
• 27:06
  rethinking of cash application, where something like, lsas and
• 27:13
  other things are going to be looked at at a completely
• 27:18
  different light than before, meaning, they're not going to be
• 27:21
  as open to allocating finances towards them.
• 27:24
  So they believe the next 18 months.
• 27:27
  Months of business was not going to look as fruitful and as and
• 27:31
  as positive as they thought prior and what do employees
• 27:36
  think. Do you think that employees will
• 27:40
  continue to have these unmet needs?
• 27:43
  Yes. And do you think that in if and
• 27:46
  when a recession happens, they will have even greater needs.
• 27:50
  That was my point. Yes, right.
• 27:54
  I'm just looking at a lot of this is perception as well
• 27:57
  because we all the payroll numbers in October were actually
• 28:02
  higher. So a lot of this is that the
• 28:05
  narrative that's out there isn't necessarily what's really
• 28:08
  happening. Hmm.
• 28:10
  And I have seen executive Level decisions that are because of
• 28:16
  decision bias in one form or another.
• 28:19
  And so I that's why I'm encouraging leaders to take a
• 28:24
  step back and really, really start to get More self-aware and
• 28:31
  also more empathetic and look outwards right to other
• 28:35
  perspectives and possibilities because what they think might
• 28:39
  not what be what is right? And I was I was actually
• 28:44
  struggled with some of these random timeline deadlines that
• 28:48
  are sometimes set. I've gotten like, I remember in
• 28:52
  the past in my career, oh not now a year from now.
• 28:56
  You get that number from. You got Got ya.
• 29:00
  You've got all your employees engaged around us and you're
• 29:02
  saying you personally don't have the part but what are the
• 29:07
  employees saying? Right?
• 29:08
  What do they need, right? And so so that was part of the
• 29:13
  decision for me, then in that particular situation, do I want
• 29:16
  a time my career with the pace of this company and the answer
• 29:19
  was no, very, very true, right? Let me ask you this question is
• 29:25
  a little bit out of the box here but that but that's AJ.
• 29:28
  I hope that helped. You know, it did and I'll even
• 29:32
  give you one other thing on this action before I jump to this
• 29:34
  out-of-the-box question and I love your honesty out of that.
• 29:39
  Love your two cents on this and any advising you want to do live
• 29:42
  on air here. I'm restructuring.
• 29:47
  I'm not restructuring. I'm adding another layer to my
• 29:49
  Beyond brand business because of this moment, I think for those
• 29:55
  companies that are quote, unquote, doing a hiring freeze
• 30:00
  or significant layoffs, my whole thesis to the world, and I want
• 30:04
  to give your opinion, I want you to get your, I want to get your
• 30:06
  opinion first. Before I even dive deeper, or
• 30:08
  just on this thesis, my thesis now is okay if you're saying to
• 30:12
  your company's to your company's to your employees and the world.
• 30:16
  Were laying off five five hundred, five thousand 50
• 30:21
  thousand or were doing a freeze. Then you're essentially saying
• 30:25
  we have no interest, no desire, no finances, no no, whatever to
• 30:30
  put any energy towards hiring a bunch of new people and bringing
• 30:37
  them into the company at this particular moment, right?
• 30:40
  And we're looking to dispose of certain departments and certain
• 30:45
  said, said employee Because we feel like the value, they're
• 30:49
  bringing to the company does not add up financing to the value
• 30:53
  that we think they need during this rough period of time.
• 30:55
  That's essentially what you're saying.
• 30:57
  So if you're saying that would you agree to this macro thesis
• 31:01
  that that those that you decide to keep you need to do
• 31:06
  everything in your power to double down on the engagement,
• 31:09
  double down there on the retention, Double Down of the
• 31:12
  productivity of those individuals, correct?
• 31:16
  Yeah. No.
• 31:16
  I mean, because when you're, when you're making course,
• 31:19
  Corrections, let's call it. I mean, or actually, laying off.
• 31:23
  What your signaling to everybody is.
• 31:25
  We're not in growth mode. We're in crisis mode.
• 31:28
  And is that any good for morale, or productivity or engagement?
• 31:32
  I know that there were studies done during the pandemic that
• 31:37
  showed that some of the top reasons that people were
• 31:41
  quitting their jobs and these are people that have options,
• 31:44
  right? The one of those that leave the
• 31:45
  company. Their own volition have options,
• 31:48
  right? And and so, a lot of them were
• 31:53
  leaving because of lack of growth and development,
• 31:55
  learning, and Learning and Development opportunities.
• 31:58
  So lack of career growth was a big reason why people are
• 32:01
  leaving their jobs. So you take that away or you
• 32:04
  indicate that you know if the company you know the company or
• 32:08
  the organization is kind of pulling back so to speak.
• 32:12
  That's more indication to those that remain behind that they
• 32:16
  might not. Get their needs met as well.
• 32:19
  So you see how there's a lot of self-defeating Behavior here.
• 32:22
  Yeah, and so that's why, you know, you ask me for real-time
• 32:29
  advice is is to open apertures right now.
• 32:33
  In terms of looking at things a little bit more holistically,
• 32:36
  first of all, and also shifting between short term medium and
• 32:44
  long term as well. A lot of stuff is happening
• 32:48
  because of reactionary Behavior. Okay, let me ask you this.
• 32:53
  What does a head of tat? What advice can we both?
• 32:56
  Give to a head of talent and a chief people officer.
• 33:01
  To do this. There are scared right now
• 33:05
  because they, they are quote unquote, overhead expenses, to
• 33:10
  an organization, right? So they're scared about their
• 33:14
  budgets getting cut. Well, that's what I was going to
• 33:17
  go to write. What can we say to those two
• 33:19
  people? For those two roles to the
• 33:22
  following roles that they probably report to write?
• 33:24
  Because typically even report to the CEO of the CFO, the CEO.
• 33:29
  So what so what can we say to? To those who rolls to help them
• 33:33
  make their pitch to the CFO to, or to the CEO and or CEO about
• 33:39
  why their budget should not get cut.
• 33:41
  And, or if it is going to get cut, there should be a
• 33:44
  reallocation of budget towards doubling down on things like
• 33:49
  engagement on, internal comms on, you know, leadership and
• 33:55
  management trainings. Things of that nature.
• 33:57
  Because again, what your signaling is if you're signaling
• 34:01
  that If you not singly, if you actually have let go ten
• 34:06
  thousand or five thousand or 500 or done a freeze or whatever
• 34:09
  you're doing, then you're essentially saying those that
• 34:12
  we've decided to keep we need to keep like week you 5,000 that
• 34:17
  are still here, we need you here we need you to work at a high
• 34:21
  level and we want to have the same level of productivity we
• 34:24
  that we had. When we have Dupree that when we
• 34:27
  have the additional 5,000 I was here alongside you because I I
• 34:31
  don't think any of these companies and correct me if I'm
• 34:33
  wrong, when I have a consistent nificant drop off a productivity
• 34:37
  just because they've let go, you know, ten percent of their
• 34:40
  Workforce. I don't think they want to drop
• 34:42
  off productivity or Revenue, do you?
• 34:45
  Well, I mean there's the argument right there, right?
• 34:47
  How, how much do you need people to run this business?
• 34:53
  Can you do it on technology alone?
• 34:56
  Or your products know you, there is no organization that can run
• 35:02
  entirely autonomously without right and so and I always had a
• 35:09
  child always struggled or I always challenged or question
• 35:14
  this whole this whole Trope around we need to do more with
• 35:19
  less. Like I was was I've always been
• 35:22
  struck with, why would you not resource something that you
• 35:25
  need? That is Horton to you,
• 35:27
  adequately in order to for it to be successful.
• 35:30
  I always struggled with that. I get being effective and
• 35:34
  efficient, I'm totally all for that.
• 35:37
  But this whole thing of, you know, let's make that the
• 35:39
  culture. I struggle with that.
• 35:43
  Why constantly, you're constantly stressing out the
• 35:47
  organization and we're not machines.
• 35:50
  Yep. So so yeah, your question of
• 35:55
  what? If I were Chief people officer
• 35:57
  or head of talent? What argument I do make
• 36:01
  arguments, right? I think we've already had the
• 36:03
  argument for the last half hour, 45 minutes already, right?
• 36:06
  So I think it's all there. It's and and I don't know if
• 36:11
  it's a telling thing, it's a showing things.
• 36:13
  Sometimes right because it's people pull rank all the time,
• 36:18
  don't they? Well, that's what I was going to
• 36:21
  say, right? How I am just going to decide.
• 36:24
  Oh that's what I was going to say how do we avoid?
• 36:27
  Because I know a lot of companies have started giving a
• 36:31
  lot more decision-making rights to some of those roles that I
• 36:34
  just mentioned, right? The heads of talent, the chief
• 36:36
  people officer the the, this thr ough.
• 36:40
  But now, but now I think doing this Comments were seeing some
• 36:44
  of that rank being pulled, right?
• 36:47
  So I guess I'm just curious again.
• 36:49
  I don't we pretty much just said it, but I'm just wondering from
• 36:52
  your opinion. What advice would you give like
• 36:54
  you're in that room? We are the CFO is about to pull,
• 36:58
  budget or freeze budget, or make significant cuts.
• 37:01
  And the chief people officer has significant data from multiple
• 37:06
  business units. Within the organization, saying
• 37:08
  if you do this, we are going to have a significant drop-off.
• 37:13
  Off of productivity of product rollout time.
• 37:16
  But you know, we're all these different metrics we're going to
• 37:19
  have significant drop-off, I'm asking you not to do this for a
• 37:23
  business reason, not necessarily a human reason.
• 37:27
  What is there anything you can think of that?
• 37:29
  You haven't said, already, that could get that CFO and that she
• 37:32
  00 or Co to open their eyes and not be so fear-based, and be a
• 37:37
  little bit more optimistic, strategic about that decision.
• 37:43
  Yeah, I mean I think asking the right questions is really
• 37:48
  important but more than that you know the question II did
• 37:55
  actually one time asked a leader.
• 37:58
  How much are you willing to pay for the engagement of your
• 38:00
  people, huh? Would they say $5?
• 38:07
  How big was this cone? Very big multinational.
• 38:11
  Big some Define. Did you define the what was
• 38:15
  there? That was there.
• 38:16
  Flippant answer. But basically they said, I don't
• 38:19
  care about Employee Engagement and so They have you.
• 38:25
  And I talked business before we hit record, you and I were
• 38:28
  talking about situation where you had a perspective, you gave
• 38:32
  that advice it was overridden, right?
• 38:36
  Hmm. And then you were proven right,
• 38:40
  it happens all the time. It happened all the time in my
• 38:43
  career, as an HR executive as well.
• 38:47
  So sometimes people have to make their decisions, but you can
• 38:53
  decide whether Or not, you want to continue to be involved,
• 38:56
  right? And and so if those Chief
• 39:00
  people, my question is, what's keeping you there, then if that
• 39:03
  Chief people officer has made their arguments, and their
• 39:07
  colleagues have said, yeah, that's nice.
• 39:09
  We don't care. What's keeping you at your job?
• 39:12
  Are you able to do what you want and need to do to add value to
• 39:18
  this organization? And if the answer is no, then I
• 39:22
  think there's some Real real thinking that needs to be done
• 39:28
  around that at the end of the day, companies need to make
• 39:31
  their own decisions and and live with the consequences of those
• 39:36
  decisions. I hate that there's a Fallout
• 39:39
  where other like employees, right the employees that they
• 39:42
  should be caring about get some of that Fallout as well.
• 39:46
  They invited girl damage and that's the piece that I'm always
• 39:49
  working. I'm sure.
• 39:50
  Always trying to develop leaders so that they have the The vision
• 39:56
  and the understanding, and the value and the people in their
• 40:00
  organization. So that they make different
• 40:02
  decisions. They see things differently.
• 40:05
  How much do you statements like? Five dollars on how much they
• 40:11
  would pay for an increase or Employee Engagement overall.
• 40:16
  Or how much do you think the company that still exists in the
• 40:20
  leaders that still exist? We're, you know, they don't care
• 40:25
  too much about a lot of the strategies and a lot of the work
• 40:29
  that that folks like you and I try to put into the world.
• 40:32
  How much do you think a lot of that stems from personal?
• 40:39
  Securities, or issues and pain, and upbringing.
• 40:44
  And, or if it's not that deep and or just bad habits, and bad
• 40:50
  learning experience, from there, from some of their first jobs,
• 40:53
  their first internships, some of the leaders and managers that
• 40:57
  trained and taught them, how much do you think that is?
• 41:00
  That is naturally ingrained in them versus taught?
• 41:04
  And, and Yeah. What are your thoughts on having
• 41:09
  coached a lot of leaders? I mean, there are some that do
• 41:12
  have those deep seeded experiences that have created
• 41:15
  this, some of this perspective but a lot of it is, ignorance.
• 41:18
  A lot of people, ignore what they don't understand.
• 41:22
  So I work in the culture space as an example.
• 41:26
  That's not a topic that a lot of people.
• 41:30
  Everyone knows it. They feel it.
• 41:32
  They talk about it but they don't necessarily understand it.
• 41:36
  So therefore when it comes to making some decisions around it,
• 41:39
  they don't they sometimes avoid it right or they.
• 41:43
  So so I think a lot of it is ignorance and so that's why a
• 41:47
  lot of the work I do is around the education space as well but
• 41:52
  you're right. There are some I think cultural
• 41:56
  challenges in terms of mindsets being passed on poor role
• 42:02
  modeling, you know what some of those Leaders that are more
• 42:07
  challenging, who are you could take a look, who are they
• 42:10
  surrounding themselves with right there, there can be a
• 42:17
  better way of doing things and we have this, you know, in
• 42:21
  Silicon Valley, always talk about vitamin or painkiller.
• 42:24
  Have you heard that analogy? I have.
• 42:27
  Yeah, and you know what, if you don't take your vitamins, you
• 42:30
  will need that painkiller. And and then I was in a
• 42:34
  conversation the other day you either pay up front or you paid
• 42:37
  in the back end and you trying to fix the problem, right?
• 42:41
  Well let me ask you this then if if a lot of it is ignorance Have
• 42:48
  you and your personal experience?
• 42:50
  Just found that then education solves this or where do you see?
• 42:56
  You know because you know knowledge doesn't always
• 42:58
  translate to behavior change, correct?
• 43:00
  No, but listen, we're humans were coded to learn, we actually
• 43:04
  learn not to learn, but we can also learn to learn to and using
• 43:08
  a lot of words here, but it's like, you know, I, you know,
• 43:10
  it's it's that piece where We are our own worst enemies.
• 43:17
  Yeah, right, so it's not just education.
• 43:21
  No, but I actually put Learning and change go hand-in-hand the
• 43:27
  way I Define learning is that it's demonstrated by changed
• 43:31
  behavior and when you're going through change, it's all about
• 43:36
  learning your way through it as well.
• 43:37
  So it's there's there's that relationship there that isn't
• 43:40
  always connected but it absolutely learning is not going
• 43:44
  to a training session and putting, you know, putting that
• 43:47
  presentation in your your folder or your the binder on the
• 43:51
  bookcase and never looking at it again.
• 43:53
  Learning did Not happen there. No, anything happens.
• 43:56
  When you encounter new knowledge and you incorporate it into your
• 44:01
  actions and your behaviors, right?
• 44:04
  So I think that it's not just about education, it's education
• 44:09
  to get learning and about transformation.
• 44:13
  Right? At the same time.
• 44:17
  Are you a big fan? And I'm assuming the answer is
• 44:18
  yes, for this kind of rhetorical question but I think connected
• 44:22
  to what you're saying about. Out.
• 44:25
  How knowledge needs to be, you know, applied the second turn to
• 44:30
  a behavior. I'm assuming you're a big fan of
• 44:32
  leaders that maybe are our bit cautious of change, but they're
• 44:41
  at least willing to listen to again, a manager or a chief
• 44:45
  people officer to say, you know what, this new internal Comm
• 44:48
  strategy or this new employee experience strategy Employee
• 44:51
  Engagement strategy, or this new Benefit or this new salary
• 44:56
  structure that we're deciding to roll out?
• 44:57
  I don't know. I don't internally feel great
• 45:00
  about it based off of whatever reasons.
• 45:03
  My bet, my upbringing, my background.
• 45:06
  What? I was taught growing up, but
• 45:09
  I'll at least give it a free month run.
• 45:11
  I'll co-create. Some of the key p is some the.
• 45:13
  Okay, ours of how we're going to measure the success of it.
• 45:16
  And we'll look at the results. Three months later.
• 45:19
  And we'll make a decision based off of the employees and the
• 45:22
  data and I'll give it a shot. Shot.
• 45:24
  I'm assuming leaders like that are a big fan of yours or or
• 45:29
  you're a big fan of Hmm, I guess let me respond by saying in that
• 45:38
  scenario, I would say. Well what would success look
• 45:41
  like, how have you seen it work? And how do we make that happen?
• 45:45
  Because if they're sitting there passively saying I'm giving you
• 45:48
  the kpi, you come back to me and see if you deserve it.
• 45:50
  That's, that's not a partnership in.
• 45:53
  Oh no, I said coke coke for you. Yeah.
• 45:55
  So as a co-creation happens with how do we weave that narrative
• 45:59
  together and how do we, how do we open up the possibilities and
• 46:03
  Achieve that shared success piece?
• 46:07
  So I think that goes back to my earlier point of asking.
• 46:10
  The right questions is to invite an Engage and co-create to
• 46:17
  achieve that as opposed to transact, right?
• 46:22
  There's another point. I wanted to make their and I've
• 46:24
  lost the thought, well, come back around to it.
• 46:29
  So, so the name of the podcast is, you know, e1b to employees
• 46:33
  first business, second. So, on that lens, I'll ask an
• 46:38
  out-of-the-box question. Can a company or a leader?
• 46:41
  Go too far. The the way that I would
• 46:46
  probably be a fan of, which is putting employees.
• 46:49
  First kind of company, put employees first too much.
• 46:54
  Is that even possible. Can a company's be to
• 46:58
  employee-driven? Where I can actually negatively
• 47:00
  impact the company. I think it's a little bit deeper
• 47:07
  than that. I think to answer your question.
• 47:10
  No, you can't be two people centered, okay?
• 47:13
  But there are cultural norms that go too far.
• 47:19
  So being so conflict, a verse, which is theoretically, to be
• 47:25
  more kind to people, which actually isn't right.
• 47:28
  Those are where those things start to get a little bit more.
• 47:31
  If Fee in terms of being to this or that.
• 47:35
  So culture is the thing behind everything.
• 47:37
  Is what I say? Yep, answer that question.
• 47:40
  It depends on the culture. It depends on the organization
• 47:44
  because their manifestation of being to employee centered or or
• 47:49
  being employee Center is going to manifest itself differently
• 47:52
  than another company. Even if they're in the same
• 47:55
  industry, So, let's unpack that a little bit because I think
• 48:02
  conflict is actually a really interesting piece, right?
• 48:04
  So, Are you saying that companies that are little bit
• 48:11
  too? Let's just make it simple.
• 48:13
  You think companies that are a bit too nice and are too willing
• 48:19
  to just go with with any Vibe, any energy any?
• 48:24
  There's just a lot of there's a lot of yes men going around.
• 48:27
  You believe that can that can probably negatively impact some
• 48:30
  things. Yes Men is not always about
• 48:33
  being. Nice is my experience.
• 48:35
  Since I think the other thing is I wouldn't necessarily go there
• 48:42
  first. I would, I would go into the
• 48:43
  culture piece and say, well, what is the culture and are they
• 48:48
  intention? What are they managing
• 48:50
  intentionally? When they when it comes to
• 48:53
  aligning? The company values with the
• 48:55
  employee experience? Because that's often case often
• 49:01
  times has not been looked at and so you get a lot of out of ad
• 49:06
  hoc which might bring up some of this example that you just asked
• 49:12
  about. Because the culture is not overt
• 49:17
  and not clear and not articulated in a way that people
• 49:20
  understand what the expectations are.
• 49:22
  They might have misinterpreted it and therefore are creating
• 49:26
  new cultural patterns that aren't necessarily beneficial to
• 49:29
  everyone. Or maybe in and then go deeper
• 49:32
  on that and element, right? Maybe the culture is not
• 49:35
  designed to reward, friction reward, pushback reward, you
• 49:41
  know Innovation and new ideas and diversity of thought, right?
• 49:44
  Yeah. I mean you want some
• 49:46
  constructive or positive conflict because if you don't
• 49:49
  have that you're not necessarily learning from each other, right?
• 49:56
  I always relate this because I talk a lot about this when I'm
• 49:59
  kind of Working with leaders myself, I say, you know, we need
• 50:04
  to build in some systems. We're anytime there's a new
• 50:07
  decision made or a new initiative that we're planning
• 50:10
  on rolling out as a no. Let's say you're a manager
• 50:12
  leading, a team of five or seven and there should be a period of
• 50:15
  time in the beginning or the middle or the end of that
• 50:18
  process, where you go directly to your people.
• 50:21
  And there's an expectation that set where it's like, please
• 50:24
  share with me your thoughts around, why you hate this.
• 50:27
  What? Don't, what don't you like about
• 50:29
  this? We're Them are not seen, you
• 50:31
  know, we're is my blind side on this one.
• 50:34
  I think, and it's very similar for me, you know, one thing that
• 50:37
  I think that's beautiful with my relationship with my wife is
• 50:40
  that there are times where people from the far will look at
• 50:44
  us and we'll call the bickering, but one of the things that we've
• 50:48
  structured, our relationship is we will look at it as very
• 50:52
  healthy debate, right? Like II made it very clear to
• 50:55
  her when I started dating, I don't want, I don't want a wife
• 50:59
  or a girlfriend. No friend or partner.
• 51:01
  That's just always going to agree with everything that I say
• 51:05
  to avoid conflict because I know at some point that Bulls up to
• 51:08
  be an issue and I know maybe that's because that's actually
• 51:14
  and I would love to get your opinion on.
• 51:15
  Not maybe not that but like the factor of that, right?
• 51:19
  Like no you do bring up something and I'd like to share
• 51:23
  that. I'm good each practitioner of
• 51:25
  appreciative inquiry and so instead of saying, Do you know
• 51:30
  what, what problem do you have with this?
• 51:32
  Or why is this wrong is, how can what makes it right?
• 51:36
  And how can we make it right when it comes to companies and
• 51:39
  their employees? It's not tell us everything
• 51:41
  that's wrong and we'll try to fix it.
• 51:43
  One by one, you'll never be finished and you'll create new
• 51:46
  problems but what conditions can you set so that people can
• 51:51
  Thrive? Because when you set those
• 51:54
  conditions, those problems can't exist.
• 51:59
  Unpack that a bit more. So I actually I wrote about this
• 52:03
  example, in my book culture, your culture, it was, you know
• 52:07
  there was a huge amount of attrition in one particular
• 52:10
  department and there was some investigation behind it and
• 52:16
  debriefing of all the issues that were being raised and you
• 52:21
  know, the managers like diligently writing down every
• 52:23
  single complaint and problem. And and and it got to the point
• 52:27
  where it's like, okay, put your pen down and think about a time.
• 52:31
  I'm where your your organization was at its best, if you focused
• 52:37
  on setting those conditions and creating that outcome, would any
• 52:42
  of these problems matter. And the answer is no.
• 52:49
  It's very interesting. So we've been trained through
• 52:53
  adulthood to be a deficit or problem based in our thinking
• 52:59
  and that is there's some benefit to that but it doesn't cover
• 53:03
  everything. And and I think there's a way in
• 53:08
  which when you talk about relationships I'm not commenting
• 53:11
  on your marriage, right? No, no, but I'm talking about
• 53:14
  what kind of what kind of conversations are happening in
• 53:17
  those relationships? Is it debate where you're trying
• 53:21
  to forced Force the other parties to, to come to one point
• 53:26
  of view, is it discussion where everyone comes with their own
• 53:30
  agenda and there's more telling, than asking, or is it genuine
• 53:34
  Meaningful dialogue, where everyone comes in and they
• 53:38
  explore possibilities together. They want to engage in.
• 53:41
  Co-create. There's no.
• 53:42
  That's, that's the difference between.
• 53:45
  So there's a practice and appreciative inquiry called
• 53:47
  conversations worth having. That's a difference between, you
• 53:51
  know, some affirmative conversation or one that can be
• 53:56
  destructive. Yeah, that hurts relationships.
• 54:01
  Let me ask you this from a different angle.
• 54:05
  This is a out-of-the-box thing. This is my a.d.d. kicking in
• 54:09
  what, what's, what's one thing that you would say?
• 54:12
  The number one thing you would give a founder of a team, let's
• 54:17
  say, 50 employees in up. What's the number one advice?
• 54:24
  You would give them around how they can utilize.
• 54:27
  More of a people-centered decision making process
• 54:32
  framework if you will. Like, how can they lean into
• 54:35
  their people a bit more? As they are gearing up to make
• 54:38
  really tough decisions what which one number you know,
• 54:41
  what's a, what's a, what's a big piece of advice?
• 54:44
  You would give them to do that. More efficiently to do that
• 54:46
  better to do that faster, or to frankly, do that at all?
• 54:49
  All or even or do you even believe that it's important to
• 54:54
  kind of utilize the people employees first mentality?
• 54:57
  When it comes to decision, making versus keeping all the
• 55:00
  decisions, you know, kind of brewing and made at the top.
• 55:03
  What are your thoughts on that? At the start up 50 employees and
• 55:07
  up level as a Company's trying to scale, I will answer your
• 55:11
  question but let me back up and say that I think these
• 55:15
  conversations Can and should happen from the very beginning
• 55:19
  at the founding team, even if there's only two Founders,
• 55:22
  that's talk about. But I'm happy to go in, but to
• 55:25
  answer your question on the 50 and up.
• 55:28
  It's how do you engage and co-create?
• 55:32
  Because there are examples of companies where they ask their
• 55:36
  employees. How can we avoid layoffs?
• 55:38
  Give us your ideas and that's worked.
• 55:41
  Do you have an A tangible example of that?
• 55:45
  Yeah. Except the CEO got in trouble
• 55:46
  and got fired. So what y by got fired by the
• 55:52
  investors and the board know. So like who fired this?
• 55:57
  Bo this is in the news. You can Google it.
• 55:59
  Gravity payments. Okay.
• 56:01
  Just based out of Washington state.
• 56:03
  I will say who could fire the CEO of it's not?
• 56:05
  Well, what happened was like he had a very people-centered
• 56:10
  public Anna. Okay, that was discovered, I
• 56:13
  think, was it earlier this year that he had used his positional
• 56:18
  power to harass people? Women in particular so is no
• 56:24
  longer in their job, okay? But there was a period.
• 56:30
  He very publicly shared how there was a period of time where
• 56:35
  they were in danger of laying people off.
• 56:37
  And, you know, went to the employees, the leadership of the
• 56:42
  company went to the employees and said, how can we avoid?
• 56:45
  Lead layoffs, everybody stepped up.
• 56:49
  And that was a great success story.
• 56:53
  So I don't, I don't want the behaviors of one individual take
• 56:57
  away from the fact that the engagement of that entire
• 57:00
  company was what avoided those layoffs.
• 57:02
  Hmm. And was there something tangible
• 57:06
  that? A lot of the employees said they
• 57:10
  fell would it would help avoid this how we can function more
• 57:13
  efficiently. This is how we connect must
• 57:15
  remember. I mean, it was everything was a
• 57:17
  lot about. Yep.
• 57:18
  Yep. So there's a lot of everybody
• 57:20
  comes to the table. This is what you have talent for
• 57:22
  by the All right, everyone comes to the table with the experience
• 57:26
  and knowledge to share and if you're not tapping into it then
• 57:30
  you're losing potential. And what do you say to a leader
• 57:34
  or a CEO or a founder or founding team that says look
• 57:38
  Karen. You know we're 50 employees now
• 57:41
  which myself I'm the CEO. I have my ctOS I have you know I
• 57:47
  have some fractional cfo's around here you know I have my
• 57:50
  head of talent. You know, and I have some
• 57:54
  advisers and some investors that I into mentors that I listen to,
• 57:58
  you know, we're all just gonna know we're all just going to
• 58:00
  internally make these decisions. You know, we have our product
• 58:03
  people doing what they do best, we have a marketing people, do
• 58:05
  what they do best. But, but as far as big bulky
• 58:08
  decisions, you know, I just don't think they have as much
• 58:11
  knowledge and expertise as we do.
• 58:13
  And if because if they do they'd be running the company right
• 58:16
  now, like what if that is a response they give would.
• 58:18
  What do you say to them? I would ask them.
• 58:20
  Show me your strategy. Are you making decisions?
• 58:23
  Visions against that, or your mood today, and we say that way,
• 58:27
  I would be nice nicer about it. Then what do they give you a
• 58:30
  very arrogant responds? And says, well, you know, our
• 58:33
  strategy got us to, you know, you know what's got.
• 58:37
  You was that book called, right? What got you here?
• 58:39
  Won't take you there, you don't necessarily.
• 58:42
  That's, that's a thousand percent true.
• 58:44
  Yeah, and so, you know, one of the questions I've asked CEOs is
• 58:51
  you've gotten to the Pinnacle of your career.
• 58:53
  Career. What is it that you still have
• 58:55
  to learn. Hmm.
• 58:57
  And a lot of them struggle with that.
• 58:59
  Yeah. Okay I'm so that tells you
• 59:01
  something right there and that's why I do so much to coach
• 59:04
  leaders CEOs and otherwise to increase their self awareness
• 59:11
  and and and use that toward developing their EQ.
• 59:15
  Because EQ is so essential to success in role regardless of
• 59:20
  industry or level e. Q has a lot to do with success
• 59:25
  in Mobile. So it's not just technical
• 59:28
  knowledge or experience. It's like well, what are you
• 59:30
  doing with that experience and knowledge if you know more, how
• 59:33
  are you using it? Yep.
• 59:37
  So I'm speaking to you right now, we're speaking
• 59:39
  rhetorically, right? I'm I very much value the
• 59:42
  relationships. I have with my clients, I I get
• 59:46
  and I'm also choosy on who I work with right?
• 59:49
  Because it, oh I know an HR. I didn't always get to choose
• 59:54
  who I worked with so as an independent, you know, that's
• 59:57
  commitment of made to myself. But what I've found is that
• 1:00:03
  oftentimes organizations are trying to Address the symptoms
• 1:00:06
  and not the root cause and almost always I can point to
• 1:00:10
  culture as the root cause but it's just not.
• 1:00:13
  It's just that they don't always think of that first.
• 1:00:16
  Okay. So they might say help us,
• 1:00:19
  communicate better with each other, right?
• 1:00:23
  Or you know, how do we address this one problem morale is low
• 1:00:29
  right? But everything like I said if
• 1:00:32
  culture is the thing behind everything.
• 1:00:34
  And so my my whole pushes. Yeah.
• 1:00:35
  We can address some of those symptoms and move that needle a
• 1:00:39
  little bit. But what have you done about
• 1:00:41
  your culture? Yep.
• 1:00:43
  Yep. Because how is that?
• 1:00:45
  Helping or hurting that problem. You're trying to address right
• 1:00:50
  now? Yeah. if I were to tell you
• 1:00:54
  Karen, if I were to tell you my goal to move, When I see an
• 1:01:00
  employee that's low performing my go-to move is to go directly
• 1:01:06
  to the management of that employee the manager of that
• 1:01:09
  employee and figure out what figure out how much that manager
• 1:01:14
  knows about how to manage and lead and support that employee
• 1:01:18
  versus going to the employee first and scolding them or
• 1:01:23
  having issues with them. Or I think negatively speaking
• 1:01:28
  to them if I were to Tell you my first go to is too.
• 1:01:32
  I don't want to use the word blame but And I don't want to
• 1:01:37
  say point the finger, but if my first go-to is to speak to the
• 1:01:41
  leader of that employee and understand how I can support
• 1:01:45
  that leader to support the employee.
• 1:01:47
  First around how that employee contextually may need to be
• 1:01:51
  developed versus blame the employee first, which I think a
• 1:01:54
  lot of companies do. What would your response be and
• 1:01:58
  how could you help polish that strategy a bit more?
• 1:02:01
  So my advice would be to find out what's going on first.
• 1:02:05
  So the analogy of the iceberg, right?
• 1:02:08
  There's so much more beneath the service than what we're seeing
• 1:02:12
  and so before we come to any sort of judgment or conclusions
• 1:02:15
  is to find out what happened Because I my first, this is
• 1:02:23
  something. I had to develop over the years
• 1:02:25
  is because I have a very strong on the Myers-Briggs.
• 1:02:28
  I'm a very strong J. So I know how I think about
• 1:02:32
  things. I have a very clear opinion but
• 1:02:36
  one of the things I've done through my work in as actually
• 1:02:44
  through all of my work as an organizational psychologist and
• 1:02:47
  design thinking is Is to be able to have that mindset of
• 1:02:52
  curiosity, first and to practice empathy wherever possible.
• 1:02:57
  Yeah, right? Because it's not always what we
• 1:03:00
  think it is, right? And we have to give room for
• 1:03:03
  everybody involved. So if some sort of conflict
• 1:03:05
  happened and we have to confront, whatever situation
• 1:03:10
  before that happens, is to find out what happened.
• 1:03:13
  It's not just okay, just this one interaction.
• 1:03:19
  That that there could have been a gazillion things that led up
• 1:03:22
  to that piece right there. So what's the context of that
• 1:03:27
  situation? Because that could impact how
• 1:03:31
  you would address it. Do you believe though?
• 1:03:35
  Do you believe that leaders need to spend a little bit more time,
• 1:03:40
  understanding how to contextually, develop, and
• 1:03:43
  support? Yeah, employee versus kind of
• 1:03:47
  taking a blanket approach. Absolutely.
• 1:03:51
  Yeah. You believe a lot of companies,
• 1:03:52
  don't, it has its unique context.
• 1:03:54
  They just don't always understand their own kind.
• 1:03:56
  They think they know, but they don't always know, right?
• 1:03:59
  So yeah, I definitely agree on that.
• 1:04:02
  We We go, we go from problem to solution and we don't do the
• 1:04:05
  thinking in between. That's fair.
• 1:04:09
  And so we have to get a little bit more mindful that Curiosity,
• 1:04:15
  that willingness to learn that empathy for others, will help
• 1:04:19
  us. And I'm not saying slow down
• 1:04:20
  like by a gazillion like, by a gazillion, stuffs em to sing
• 1:04:26
  pause for a moment to think through as opposed to reacting.
• 1:04:31
  Yeah. Because that's where bias comes
• 1:04:34
  from, right? Let me wrap up with some of
• 1:04:38
  these bullet points that I have here on you.
• 1:04:40
  I'm and then I want to, you know, get you out of here.
• 1:04:42
  I don't want to hold you too long.
• 1:04:44
  You're all day and all night. Yeah, you always so welcoming
• 1:04:49
  with your time, couple bullet points.
• 1:04:52
  You sit over here for me and I want to give you the floor.
• 1:04:55
  Kind of just talk about any updates.
• 1:04:57
  Anything that's exciting on your plate right now.
• 1:05:01
  Anything cool happening in the research Department right now.
• 1:05:04
  Yep, I do. Do so in addition to my
• 1:05:07
  Executive coaching and then my management consulting, I also do
• 1:05:10
  a lot of talks and facilitation as well.
• 1:05:12
  I'm developing a research project at the intersection of D
• 1:05:16
  EI, and belonging and culture. So, in organizations today, you
• 1:05:21
  see, these are two spaces that are often times managed
• 1:05:24
  separately. They even report to different
• 1:05:26
  parts of the organization are tied to different roles.
• 1:05:30
  And and I've always operated from the position of you.
• 1:05:35
  You know, you really you really can't have one without the
• 1:05:38
  other. Like, how great is a culture
• 1:05:40
  that doesn't have D EI access and belonging?
• 1:05:43
  Yeah and and you can't have the I Axis and belonging without a
• 1:05:48
  culture to support and sustain it.
• 1:05:50
  Yeah, they need each other, the current paradigms separate them
• 1:05:54
  and we know that in those spaces, there's all still a lot
• 1:05:57
  lacking. There's a lot of potential
• 1:05:59
  that's not being met there. And one of the biggest
• 1:06:02
  challenges and I published this in the secret sauce.
• 1:06:05
  For leading transformational change is I've gotten on this
• 1:06:09
  thing about sustainability because, you know, that lack of
• 1:06:13
  sustainability is proof that an organization and its people have
• 1:06:18
  not learned, right? You see these initiatives come
• 1:06:22
  and go and they fail to have a positive systemic, a sustainable
• 1:06:27
  impact. Those are things that I don't,
• 1:06:30
  I'm not somebody likes to waste my time and I like to see what
• 1:06:35
  the Work that I do has an impact long-term.
• 1:06:39
  And so the research here and it's funny enough.
• 1:06:42
  This came out of a debate. I'm using that word debate
• 1:06:48
  intentionally because I've always operated with both of
• 1:06:54
  these spaces in all of my work. Okay, that's not how a lot of
• 1:07:00
  others, see it or operate and so I actually went and and My
• 1:07:05
  question is, but should it and I went and being a researcher
• 1:07:09
  myself. There's very little data in this
• 1:07:13
  space and so I would, I am endeavoring right now.
• 1:07:17
  I'm recruiting for sponsor, companies, partner companies,
• 1:07:22
  and participating companies to be involved in this thought
• 1:07:27
  leadership because what comes out of this and my Publishers
• 1:07:32
  very interested as well is Could this positively disrupt, the
• 1:07:39
  current paradigms around culture and d e IV and bring about
• 1:07:44
  sustainable change in the long-term.
• 1:07:47
  So, if there's any interest out there in getting involved in,
• 1:07:52
  please reach out to me because right now, I've got quite a bit
• 1:07:57
  of interest in the conversations I'm having.
• 1:08:00
  I also, I'm endeavoring to have a public component to the
• 1:08:03
  research because unlike other studies, which focus on just
• 1:08:10
  leadership perspectives. I'm very keen to get work or
• 1:08:13
  perspectives as well. And we know from other research
• 1:08:16
  that there's that, At least a 30 percent gap between what leaders
• 1:08:19
  think and what their employees think.
• 1:08:22
  Yes, I want to make sure that as we do, this very important work,
• 1:08:25
  that we have the perspectives that we need, okay?
• 1:08:29
  That brings me to my last thing and then I'll get you out of
• 1:08:31
  here. I'm a, I'm so glad you said that
• 1:08:34
  say that again the there's a thirty percent gap between at
• 1:08:41
  least a 30 percent Gap. Yeah.
• 1:08:43
  Between between What leader, the the As a leader and what workers
• 1:08:49
  perceive as well. So I can I can send you the link
• 1:08:53
  to that research separately and you could put it in the show
• 1:08:56
  notes if you'd like and and that and let me ask you this actually
• 1:09:00
  that alignment that alignment Gap because that's I also see
• 1:09:04
  that as an alignment Gap as it pertains to how potentially
• 1:09:08
  work. It's done productivity within a
• 1:09:10
  small team, things of that nature, does that show up within
• 1:09:13
  that thirty percent. yeah, I think that study is more talking
• 1:09:19
  about like organizational wide but if you're talking on a team,
• 1:09:24
  there's an article I was interviewed for around the the
• 1:09:28
  best thing, the things, the best bosses do and I've had some
• 1:09:33
  advice around, you know, you have to get to know your
• 1:09:37
  employees, you have to know them and understand them and vice
• 1:09:41
  versa and a lot of times People abdicate, the leadership aspect
• 1:09:48
  of management as well. I mean those their leadership
• 1:09:51
  and management are different but they should they should reside
• 1:09:55
  in everybody, both, right? The ability to manage and the
• 1:09:58
  ability to lead. And what I find is that
• 1:10:03
  sometimes in this in the interest of managing, some of
• 1:10:07
  those relationships have gotten quite transactional.
• 1:10:11
  Yeah. And and that's not what engages
• 1:10:15
  people. That's not.
• 1:10:15
  What creates psychological safety on teams.
• 1:10:18
  So if you told me that if you were asking me a question about
• 1:10:21
  how do we create a greater sense of community and connectedness
• 1:10:26
  on a team, right? Then I would start first with
• 1:10:30
  psychological safety. And do you think psychological
• 1:10:34
  safety can be created through like if I were to tell you?
• 1:10:41
  And I'm asking kind of alluding to something here, but I'm not
• 1:10:44
  sure if I want to spend the time to really unpack it.
• 1:10:47
  But if I were to tell you that, there's a technology in a
• 1:10:50
  process that can unpack various categories that are operational
• 1:10:58
  based from a leader, right? So for example, let me get
• 1:11:01
  detailed because that cause you're going to be like what the
• 1:11:03
  hell you talking about? If I'm with you, I'm with.
• 1:11:06
  You actually do this work with Talent.
• 1:11:07
  Optimization has well, I used for the design of tea.
• 1:11:11
  Teams. But like I'd like to hear your
• 1:11:13
  approach. Yeah.
• 1:11:14
  So like, so if I were to tell you like, for example, I'll use
• 1:11:18
  a simple one like decision-making, right?
• 1:11:20
  Or I'll use a simple one like Are you something like also like
• 1:11:27
  if a leader know certain things about decisions they will be
• 1:11:32
  making or changes and updates in the department that are
• 1:11:35
  inevitably coming up. Let's just say I want to keep it
• 1:11:37
  super granular and simple, let's say they have information in
• 1:11:42
  their minds around updates, adjustments to how available
• 1:11:47
  they're going to be adjustments to how they are going to be
• 1:11:49
  making decisions and why those decisions are going to be made.
• 1:11:53
  Do you believe that it's incredibly important for that
• 1:11:58
  leader to potentially be facilitated by someone else to
• 1:12:05
  help unpack those thoughts and then communicate that to their
• 1:12:09
  team of six or eight individual? So that those team members, six
• 1:12:14
  or eight have alignment and understanding around some of the
• 1:12:18
  updates and changes that are going to be made so that
• 1:12:21
  everyone can be on the same page.
• 1:12:23
  Age, do you think a system or process or technology that can
• 1:12:27
  make that happen? Do you think that's productive?
• 1:12:31
  Do you think that can help drive more clue?
• 1:12:33
  Civet edrive, more psychological safety.
• 1:12:36
  Do you think that's valuable whatsoever?
• 1:12:40
  I would say it depends and also, perhaps, but also not
• 1:12:44
  necessarily at the same time because I'm a big believer in
• 1:12:48
  technology. Enabling the work, the that?
• 1:12:54
  What you're talking about but I feel like it depends on the
• 1:12:59
  situation. So my whole thing is, yeah, if
• 1:13:01
  those changes down, the pike are all teams operate on some sort
• 1:13:07
  of social, I tracked it might not be written, but it's
• 1:13:11
  understood. Okay.
• 1:13:12
  And that's why I work with some teams to actually make that over
• 1:13:15
  and articulate it with, you know, team Charters and and
• 1:13:19
  such. But but all teams are operating
• 1:13:21
  on some sort of social contract. And if those changes you're
• 1:13:25
  talking about is going to somehow violate that social
• 1:13:31
  contract, then that needs to be negotiated somehow, right?
• 1:13:37
  That that may not. Be enabled by technology.
• 1:13:40
  That's enabled by meaningful conversations, right?
• 1:13:43
  Dot true dialogue. So that's that's why I'm
• 1:13:46
  qualifying my response to you on that because it really does.
• 1:13:51
  It really does depend. But as, you know, with my work,
• 1:13:57
  I've heard a lot of pitches on in the people's people text side
• 1:14:02
  of things. And there's a lot of promising,
• 1:14:04
  Concepts ideas that are being experimented with right now.
• 1:14:08
  I'm off. All for that.
• 1:14:10
  So where technology can help support the thriving of a
• 1:14:16
  workplace Community great where it's going to add more friction
• 1:14:23
  and and into somebody's employee experience, not so much, right?
• 1:14:30
  So that's my two cents on that or any other, any other updates,
• 1:14:36
  anything else you want to plug? And then I'll let Get out of
• 1:14:38
  here. Yeah, I am actually teaching
• 1:14:41
  again this spring at Stanford continuing.
• 1:14:45
  Studies for an eight-week course that's under $500.
• 1:14:49
  That's the most affordable way to work with me.
• 1:14:52
  I'm also women's corporate board Readiness program, also happens
• 1:14:57
  in the fall. So for those of you who are or
• 1:15:01
  who know people who are interested in potentially
• 1:15:05
  diversifying boards, please, Feel free to reach out to me.
• 1:15:10
  I always create an open invitation to anybody here.
• 1:15:13
  Listening here. If you want to connect, you want
• 1:15:15
  to explore possibilities and Anthony can tell you from direct
• 1:15:18
  experience that I will make room for that.
• 1:15:21
  Yep. And because I always, I want to
• 1:15:24
  be open to the possibilities. I want to explore the path
• 1:15:27
  opportunities. You just, it's amazing.
• 1:15:30
  Like even if it's even if I don't directly benefit from it,
• 1:15:33
  some of the introductions I've made to other people and they've
• 1:15:37
  done things together. I get a lot of intrinsic joy out
• 1:15:42
  of seeing that work? Yeah, amazing.
• 1:15:45
  Well, this has been a roller coaster of a conversation in the
• 1:15:48
  good way. We've covered a lot and I'm
• 1:15:51
  appreciative that we finally did it.
• 1:15:54
  I want to do it again. I probably ping.
• 1:15:56
  You a few times a year to have you.
• 1:15:58
  Come on here. And yeah, I'm very appreciative.
• 1:16:01
  So thank you for yeah. Thank you for being on this
• 1:16:05
  podcast, I think. Yeah, you Have a lot to share
• 1:16:09
  your very insightful and whether it's, whether it's the content,
• 1:16:13
  the podcast, all of the companies that you support your,
• 1:16:17
  the book as well, right? Correct.
• 1:16:19
  Yeah, I have five books. I'd love to kind of, let me run
• 1:16:22
  through them real quick and then I'll as you don't mind sharing
• 1:16:24
  the links in the show notes. Yes, we got.
• 1:16:28
  My first book is culture, your culture innovating experiences
• 1:16:31
  at work that has my framework design of work experience, which
• 1:16:34
  is the step-by-step how-to for culture.
• 1:16:37
  Yep. Have mobile medicine, overcoming
• 1:16:42
  people culture and governance. That's about digital
• 1:16:46
  transformation in healthcare and there's a follow-up to that
• 1:16:50
  around, I think no. Now, this late in the day
• 1:16:55
  advanced advanced, this is the next follow-up is coming up and
• 1:17:00
  I think it's being released in early 2023 around risk
• 1:17:04
  management. So I'll give you the link to
• 1:17:06
  that to add I Participated in a book with my colleagues.
• 1:17:11
  It's called punk Excel. Excel stands for experience
• 1:17:15
  leadership. So he's a Adrian.
• 1:17:20
  Who is a lead author? Here is a big fan of punk, music
• 1:17:24
  and he created this great graphically designed book that
• 1:17:31
  provides all these thoughts starters around aligning
• 1:17:34
  customer experience employee experience.
• 1:17:36
  All types of experience leadership, In one place and
• 1:17:41
  also the secret sauce for leading transformational change.
• 1:17:47
  So, in a 200 Page book thought leadership and perspectives on
• 1:17:54
  all aspects of leading change. It's quite comprehensive.
• 1:17:59
  And so I you know, authors we don't do it for the money.
• 1:18:04
  Let me just say, yeah, because you feel very well.
• 1:18:08
  We have were very passionate and we feel very strongly about
• 1:18:13
  contributing new thought leadership and we're building
• 1:18:17
  upon work. That's gone ahead of us and we
• 1:18:20
  want to make a positive difference and so that that we
• 1:18:24
  need readership, right? I mean and when we talk about
• 1:18:27
  Innovation, I was going to mention this earlier.
• 1:18:29
  You know, there's there's a difference between invention and
• 1:18:33
  Innovation, right? Innovation requires it, you
• 1:18:36
  know, adoption it's got to make a Friends.
• 1:18:39
  Yeah. And so I feel that way about all
• 1:18:42
  the work that I've done and I'm very grateful to have the
• 1:18:45
  colleagues that I do that. We ended up in the pandemic
• 1:18:47
  saying. Okay, let's let's work on these
• 1:18:49
  books together. You know, it's been really fun.
• 1:18:53
  It's and it's a lot less lonely than writing your own book.
• 1:18:55
  I can tell you that from experience, so now the published
• 1:18:59
  or no, I'm so I my book came through Emerald group
• 1:19:03
  publishing, which is an academic press and I did that on purpose
• 1:19:07
  because I wanted my work to go through the rigor that it needed
• 1:19:12
  to before even was printed. And I'm also working right now
• 1:19:17
  on an online course more to come around that.
• 1:19:19
  But it came out of my essay in secret sauce around sustainable,
• 1:19:24
  D EI, and be so look out for that.
• 1:19:28
  If you if you follow me on social media or get in touch
• 1:19:31
  I'll certainly be announcing those in doo doo time.
• 1:19:35
  So a lot of fun stuff but I would love Only I would say,
• 1:19:41
  what is it called, co-conspirators or atmosphere.
• 1:19:44
  Yeah, project, right? Those that believe very strongly
• 1:19:49
  in the power of culture and D EI, and be let's back up what
• 1:19:53
  we're what we believe with, with some data and research and make
• 1:19:58
  a positive difference there? Excellent.
• 1:20:00
  I appreciate you. Can I appreciate you too, AJ?
• 1:20:03
  Thanks for having me and I'm happy to come back.
• 1:20:05
  Anytime thousand percent. Thank you.