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The Morality of Foreign Aid · Think Twice Show

0:00
To this day, we still say Starving Marvin.
0:02
Starving Marvin is an Ethiopian kid.
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That's just so problematic. Every African was now painted
0:07
with that same brush when I read about the IMFI.
0:10
Saw it a lot like a loan shark. Western countries get to profit
0:14
essentially from Nigeria desperation economically without
0:18
ever having to repay for the fact that they put Nigeria in
0:21
that position with person. Welcome back to Think Twice,
0:35
your favourite show where we discuss morality, ethics.
0:39
My name is Sam Teff. My name is Ben.
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And today we're going to discuss a few organisations that we have
0:44
we have in mind and talk about is their impact on the world a
0:48
net positive or a net negative? It's a new concept that that
0:51
we're trialling. So let us let us know what you
0:52
think. Yeah, it's my little thought,
0:54
baby. Yeah, yeah, your your
0:56
brainchild. Yeah.
0:57
Brainchild. Yeah.
0:58
Yeah, you know, right. First time, yeah.
1:00
Yeah. So we're going to discuss 2
1:02
organisations in particular and talk about their impact on on
1:06
the global scale. Let's talk about the IMF, the
1:10
International Monetary Fund. It was founded in 1944, and it
1:17
basically monitors the economic health of countries and sort of
1:22
provides loans for governments in economic distress.
1:27
And it's usually seen as the last resort.
1:32
Short term funding for. Crisis precisely to help
1:35
countries that are really, really struggling, do you?
1:37
Think that's a net positive or net negative?
1:41
When I, when I, when I read about the IMF, I'm not an
1:44
economist by the way. So I just want to want to say
1:46
that first of all. And it's not really my strong
1:48
suit. I'd say this is more your strong
1:50
suit, but I saw it a lot like a loan shark.
1:55
And when is a loan shark ever good?
1:58
Never really. I like that analogy.
2:01
But that's the story, isn't that?
2:04
Positive. No, no, no, no, no.
2:07
What are you doing? I.
2:13
Know, I know I. Know, I know I know I know.
2:16
I. Know why have you done that?
2:17
Because basically the countries would be worse off without it.
2:23
That's that was basically what my reading was suggesting they
2:26
would be worse off of. As horrible as a loan shark is,
2:30
if you're about to die as a result of not paying this debt,
2:37
it has to be better than that. It must have been on the IMF
2:41
website bro. I might have had some IMF
2:43
propaganda, yeah, I might have had some IMF.
2:46
Propaganda. You need to check the address in
2:49
the top left bro. I might have had some IMF
2:51
propaganda. I I agree.
2:53
With you 100% that they are loan sharks.
2:55
They are basically loan. Sharks and also basically the
2:59
way the pot is funded is by the richest countries.
3:03
Put this money into this pot that these countries under
3:07
distress take from eventually. But the problem with that, that
3:11
sounds all really nice and stuff, but the problem with that
3:14
is now all those countries that put in more money have more say.
3:18
And the way they do it, the difference between a loan shark
3:21
and the IMF would be a loan shark is out for profit.
3:25
So they have really high unattainable interest rates,
3:29
whilst the IMF isn't so much for profit, but they'll create
3:33
sanctions on your government which will make it difficult for
3:37
you to prosper. So sort of keeps you in this
3:39
hole where it's hard for you to pay back the loan for the
3:42
profit. It's a profit in a sense, but
3:44
not in the same sense as a loan shark.
3:46
That's what I was trying to differentiate.
3:48
Yeah, I think, I think what the IMF do is exactly that They will
3:53
give you the money and they'll give you like a certain amount
3:56
of money that you need as a as a, let's say, developing country
4:00
to build your infrastructure, right.
4:02
It's like, imagine you going to a loan shark because you need to
4:05
build some part of your house or you need a car to get to work.
4:10
You need to spend money on assets that's going to build you
4:13
up. Except what IMF do is they say,
4:17
fine, we'll give you the money, but we're going to impose
4:20
restrictions on your economy and shape the economy in the way
4:23
that we see fit. One of the things they do
4:26
typically in a lot of the countries that they enter is
4:29
impose austerity, which is reduced public spending.
4:33
Increased taxes. Yeah, increased.
4:34
Taxes reduced. State health programmes.
4:37
Exactly. State help and state subsidies.
4:40
And what that does is it increases the amount of pressure
4:43
on the working class because all prices go up, because the
4:46
reductions that the government provide have disappeared
4:49
overnight. It also reduces the amount of
4:53
internal prosperity in the economy when you reduce
4:57
government spending. So like government programmes
4:59
gone, government investment in public services gone.
5:04
So all of these hit the working class.
5:07
They also don't allow you to build your build your country.
5:11
Your country just don't but your your country.
5:14
So like the big question was like, if they but.
5:17
But but, but quickly what what what happens is, is that when
5:20
you keep these countries in a cycle of debt like that,
5:24
austerity causes reliance on the IMF debt, right?
5:28
So as time passes, African countries or developing
5:33
countries enter debt cycle of the IMF and what that allows the
5:37
IMF to do is to create export economies where Western
5:41
countries can benefit by extracting resources from those
5:46
developing countries. That's why they keep the the
5:49
developing countries down. Otherwise, what's the point
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where they don't care when you keep those those countries down?
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For example, Nigeria's oil export, like 90% of government
6:00
revenues comes from oil because because the Nigerian economy has
6:04
been decimated. Nigeria used to sell palm oil,
6:08
cocoa, the agricultural sector was booming.
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IMF steps in, decimates that part of the economy and Nigeria
6:15
is now relying on on selling oil, which is what the West want
6:19
out of Nigeria. Do you get what I'm trying to
6:22
say? Whereas the agriculture doesn't
6:23
do nothing for for for the West. So the sanctions are placed in a
6:28
way that benefits the West. And that is a Nigerian example
6:31
was replicated over multiple different countries across
6:34
Africa. So the port your point, more
6:36
than half of the countries that received loans between 1965 and
6:41
1995 weren't better off. Right.
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And 32 were worse off so. Were there any that were better
6:50
off? I assume the rest were better
6:52
off. Yeah.
6:53
But to your point that Nigeria when I haven't studied it.
6:58
Of course not. At depth, but I think it might
7:01
have been the wrong use of the IMF that that might be a factor.
7:05
Do you know what I mean? Nigeria's use of the money or.
7:09
The getting the money from the IMF.
7:11
Like you should only use the loan shark if you're about to
7:15
die. Nigeria was about to die in the
7:18
80s before they entered that that it's called, it's called a
7:22
structural adjustment programme, SAP.
7:26
And in 86 they entered this programme with the IMF when
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Nigeria was on the brink of economic collapse.
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Now we haven't even touched on their colonial sort of history
7:37
of all of these developing countries.
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Nigeria was in a state of economic turmoil because of what
7:43
Britain did to it right in its post.
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And it's like the IMF comes in and creates a situation where
7:52
Western countries get to profit essentially from Nigeria's
7:55
desperation economically without ever having to contend with or
7:59
repay for the fact that they put Nigeria in that position in the
8:02
1st place. And it's like there's no one
8:05
else out there. I have a feeling that if the IMF
8:08
didn't exist and wasn't controlled by the US.
8:11
Bear in mind the IMF is headquartered in the in the
8:15
Washington. Washington is also it's head,
8:19
it's chairman is basically picked by the US president.
8:23
If there wasn't an IMF, there'd be some other world body that
8:26
could achieve what the IMF set out to do initially without the
8:29
Western influence. Do you see what I'm trying to
8:31
say? Surely there'll be someone else
8:32
in their place. Potentially who?
8:35
Who would be able to do it better, right?
8:36
Yeah. Or we a coalition that wasn't
8:38
corrupted by the West, right? A coalition where like all
8:41
countries have equal say. Obviously the fact that Western
8:45
countries add more to the pot is what creates their power, right?
8:49
And it will create their power initially.
8:51
But if we started afresh and had countries with equal say, like a
8:55
true democracy in IMF, you'd get fairer outcomes.
8:58
Do you know what I'm trying to? Say, yeah, but where wherever I
9:02
came to my conclusion was Greece.
9:07
That was my case study, right? So like I looked at Greece and
9:10
Greece were on the verge of collapse.
9:14
Collapse, right. And if they didn't get 30
9:17
billion, I think it was from the IMF, their whole banking system
9:21
would have. Been whacked out they.
9:22
Would have to exit from the eurozone and it would have
9:25
affected the countries close to it.
9:28
It would have affected the currency.
9:30
They would have to create a brand new currency.
9:32
OK, mad. Hyperinflation, they wouldn't be
9:35
able to get medicines like essential goods, which then
9:39
causes so many other problems. And it will then 'cause unrest
9:42
in the surrounding countries of Greece.
9:46
And when, when I think about it like that, I, I have to think of
9:51
it as a positive just because of that.
9:52
Because if you didn't do that, how much worse off would you be?
9:57
And it and it seems you would be worse off.
9:59
You would. Now there's exploitation, don't
10:01
get me wrong, and like the reason why this whole question
10:04
around net positive or not is because there's so much bad, but
10:09
there might be so much good as. Well, there's conflict.
10:12
There's conflict, there's not an easy answer.
10:13
And when we factor it all in, it's like, yeah, it's horrible
10:16
they've exploited these people, but if they didn't exploit them,
10:20
they wouldn't be the people to exploit anymore.
10:23
Yeah, the Greece, the Greece one is tough because I guess I'm
10:25
less familiar with how the air IMF benefited from the the Greek
10:30
situation. But again, I do know for at a
10:33
minimum the IMF imposed austerity on Greece.
10:36
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
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Do you know? What?
10:37
I mean, their inflation was crazy or something like 25%
10:41
unemployment rate. That's that's unconscionable in
10:45
the UK or US, you know what I mean?
10:47
The moment it gets, it ticks up just a little bit.
10:49
In the UK, we fucking lose our shit. 25% of people didn't have
10:53
a job. We're talking about like huge
10:56
waves of Greek, Greek young people just leave the country.
10:59
There's no prospects there. And there's a part of me that's
11:01
like, if the IMF were getting involved, where, where the good
11:04
outcomes in that? Did they pat on it?
11:06
Did they solve it? They didn't.
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They didn't. Solve it.
11:09
Did you get what I'm trying to say?
11:10
Like, yes, they saved their lives, but they're still not
11:13
life support. Yeah, You know, I mean, they
11:15
didn't really fix it. And it's like it's not a good
11:18
outcome, really. It's Yeah, it's not, is it?
11:20
Yeah. Like the the the unemployment
11:22
rate. I just couldn't believe it when
11:24
I read about that. Tough man, so tough.
11:26
You come out, you're like, you're a young person.
11:28
You just. But you're going into adulthood,
11:30
you can't get a job, you know you can't get shit, and all your
11:35
friends are unemployed. The jobs are not available.
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It's not you can't get a job. They're not there to get.
11:38
Mad And can the IMF be like, oh, we did a good job there?
11:43
No, I don't think so. Do you know what I mean?
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But when I sit there and I say there's going to probably be
11:49
more social unrest, you're going to affect other countries as a
11:54
result around you and there'll be more povy.
12:00
It's tough to say in it. It's a bit of a hyper festival,
12:02
but I just think like if you have all of the West, the West
12:07
like resources, all of the governments behind the Western
12:11
governments, behind the IMF, and that was the outcome of your
12:18
involvement in like Greece's economy, that's a flop.
12:24
Austerity. Like, why are we doing
12:25
austerity? These people are dying already.
12:27
What? Do we think the alternative is
12:28
like you basically disband the IMF and create a brand new?
12:35
System. Yes.
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I would disband the IMF or create a a voting system within
12:42
the IMF that redistributes the power from the Western countries
12:47
to everyone else. The West would never have that.
12:51
It's a bit like the UN, like if you said, oh, let's get rid of
12:53
veto power, because obviously certain countries have veto
12:56
power. the US can just unilaterally decide in the UN.
13:00
This is not happening. The whole world can say, guys,
13:05
let's stop the UN puts their vote in.
13:07
It's done the. US puts their vote.
13:09
In and it's like that voting system to me.
13:12
I'm talking about the UN now but that favours the people with the
13:16
obviously and I think if unless that changes I can't see how the
13:20
IMF is a is a force for good in the world.
13:23
Your stats back it up bro on the whole is bad.
13:28
On the whole is bad, but it could be worse.
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That's basically it. Like that, that that's the crux
13:33
of it. It could be bad.
13:36
It is really bad, but it could be worse, like when you use the
13:41
example of cars, or you go to a loan shark for a car or you go
13:47
to a loan shark for money for an asset of some sort.
13:51
Crucial assets, though. Yeah, crucial assets, obviously
13:54
the difference is like a car isn't death, you would go to a
14:00
loan shot for life threatening surgery.
14:04
Yes, yes, of. Course, and you would make the
14:06
argument that that's better than being dead.
14:10
I would make that argument. But like I said, they're not
14:12
alive right now. They're on life support.
14:15
The things beeping like they're like, not that they're not safe.
14:20
They're not about to go anyway. You just prolonged it.
14:23
You just paid for like more life support machine.
14:26
Yeah, that was essentially what you did.
14:28
You just prolonged it a little bit, but they didn't solve it.
14:31
And I like, I don't know about the Greece situation, but the
14:34
IMF always eats. They always, they always eat.
14:36
They always get their little piece.
14:38
They never, they never lose. So I, I, I am suspicious of the
14:42
IMF's involvement in crises. Do you know what I mean?
14:45
Yeah, it's it's an exploitative organisation. 100% And I think,
14:50
I think it perpetuates like Western supremacy across the
14:54
world because you think about a lot of developing countries,
14:57
especially in Africa, the industry, as colonialism ended,
15:03
the industries were built for extraction.
15:07
That's the actual infrastructure that they have.
15:09
The infrastructure that they have is like self harming.
15:12
Does that make sense? Yeah.
15:13
It's like all of the buildings, tools, roads, it was all built
15:20
during that time to extract the stuff out of the country.
15:24
Yeah. So like Africa's dealt a doubly
15:27
bad hand. The first problem is that you
15:31
are looking for funding and you have to go to places like the
15:35
IMF for funding and you're basically going to the West, cap
15:38
in hand. That's number one.
15:39
That's a problem. You've caused my problem and I
15:41
have to come to you to fix my problem.
15:43
Yeah. And on top of that, once they
15:45
get the loan funding, they they have to kind of reverse the
15:48
infrastructure they already have, which is for extraction.
15:52
And it's like all, there's not enough money to do all of these
15:55
things. You can't fix all these problems
15:57
at all at once. You kind of just have to start
15:59
again. It's kind of like what Burkina
16:01
Faso, the Burkina Faso president is doing.
16:05
He's trying to create a coalition that exists outside of
16:08
the current paradigm. So he's rejecting IMF money and
16:11
he's forming coalitions with neighbours in Africa to kind of
16:15
create their own sort of power bloc in Africa that's outside of
16:18
Western influence. And that's kind of the way you
16:20
need to do it. You can't just start again
16:24
because a lot of this shit is just corrupt.
16:26
You can't. Quant succeed basically.
16:29
Yeah, Quant succeed. It's tough.
16:31
And you know, I hope, I hope they don't get that guy, Ibrahim
16:34
Traori, I think his name is the Burkina Faso president.
16:38
He's doing big things in Africa right now.
16:40
We'll see where it goes. Go on.
16:41
Yes. He might have convinced me,
16:43
yeah. He might have convinced me.
16:46
Like I I wasn't. It wasn't who I was.
16:48
Yeah. I know.
16:48
No, no, no, I know. I didn't.
16:50
I didn't have to push you on. Yeah, you would give me a tap on
16:54
the shoulder. I would have followed, you know
16:55
what I mean? So yeah, man, it's it's sad,
16:58
really. Either way.
16:58
It's not. It's not ideal, man.
17:00
It's not ideal at all, but I think I think there's definitely
17:03
hope. A lot of countries are deep in
17:05
it now and the West in the past, they killed revolutionaries in
17:09
Africa. They would literally go and
17:12
initiate a coup, kill any revolutionary leader that
17:15
threatened the Western paradigm. But a lot of Central African
17:19
countries in particular are re challenging the Western paradigm
17:23
and I think they they will have success in the in the near
17:25
future. In Jesus name.
17:27
Amen. All right, cool.
17:34
Let's let's move on to to segment 2.
17:36
One of the things that we found interesting was Fuse ODG
17:38
criticising Band-Aid this Christmas.
17:40
Obviously Band-Aid had their 40th anniversary of their hit
17:43
single Do They Know It's Christmas?
17:45
And a lot of what Fuso OD GS argument was, was criticising
17:49
Band Aid's impact on the global scale and impact that that's had
17:52
on Africa. And he made the claim that the
17:55
impact of Band-Aid was a net negative.
17:58
Ben, do you think Band Aid's impact is a net negative or a
18:02
net positive? I think it's a net positive.
18:05
OK, OK. All right.
18:08
Should you do a quick background on on Band-Aid?
18:10
So Band-Aid basically begun because it brought global
18:16
attention to an Ethiopian famine, and it basically was
18:20
there to create a large scale sort of charity efforts to help
18:25
people in Ethiopia. Correct.
18:27
And that's why I did it. It raised significant money for
18:30
people in Ethiopia. It did.
18:32
And it has, like, great cultural significance 4 years ago.
18:35
And I think every 10 years they've released a new song.
18:39
Yeah. So this one did 40 this one.
18:41
2024 And what you said was right fuse ODG basically said it did
18:48
more harm than the good it did and which was actually backed by
18:54
Ed Sheeran and it brought us to the question net positive or
18:58
not. And the reason why I sat on net
19:01
positive was because neither of us were alive in 1984.
19:06
Of course. To understand how people, I'll
19:10
give you some context. I combed through the comments on
19:13
quite a few videos. The actual music video of the
19:15
song or like other commentary videos.
19:17
Other commentary video got you and it seemed the sort of
19:22
sentiment around Africa at the time wasn't great.
19:27
OK. And that helped people care for
19:31
Africa, but we have to acknowledge the damage it also
19:36
did creating and forcing people to think of Africa as a monolith
19:41
rather than a continent of separate countries, which it is.
19:45
And the problem was Ethiopia's problem.
19:48
And fuse OD GS said Ukraine has a problem.
19:51
We you don't paint Europe as the whole thing because it does
19:54
damage to the whole of Europe. And that's what Band-Aid has
19:57
done really. And the reason why I I said it
20:02
as a net positive is because it's saved lives.
20:05
It did save lives for sure. Although it may have done
20:08
irreparable damage to our generation, but maybe not future
20:11
generations. If you know, the work that we do
20:14
here and the work that other people do has impact, but to our
20:19
generation it did irreparable damage.
20:21
What sort of damage do you do you think it did for for our
20:24
generation? Because I'm, I'm probably going
20:26
to agree with you here on the damage.
20:28
Yeah, like my, my issue was like as a child, I used to like skip
20:33
those adverts. I couldn't watch them.
20:35
Like I could not watch black children with flies on their
20:38
faces. I didn't like it.
20:40
Like I really, really didn't like it.
20:41
And maybe Bob Geldof wasn't aware of that.
20:44
My issue though, my issue lies with the white saviour complex
20:48
that happens from Band-Aid also. 100 percent 100% The
20:51
paternalistic relationship that the West has.
20:55
In Africa precisely and their inability to accept that also
21:01
because if use OD GS saying this is a problem look like guys,
21:05
look what the damage you've done insurance come out and said look
21:09
at the damage you've done and then on top of that you still
21:12
haven't wanted to change. That's a problem bro.
21:17
That's a huge problem. But because I value human life
21:21
so highly, I think it has to be a net positive based on that
21:25
because thousands, maybe millions of lives were saved,
21:29
yeah. I agree with you.
21:32
I think it is a net positive, but only just.
21:36
Only just. Only just it's fucking squeaking
21:38
it here and I agree with you on on the damage it did.
21:43
Obviously. As an Ethiopian, you can imagine
21:45
how I felt when I saw my fellow countrymen on the TV screens
21:51
suffering from famine with flies on their face looking
21:55
unfortunate I'll near death and how that makes you feel as
22:00
Ethiopian like this is the portrayal of my country across
22:03
the world. It hurt.
22:04
It hurt a lot. And there's no way I was
22:07
watching the screen when when that show was on.
22:10
And like you, we, we at that time like we were kids, we
22:12
didn't really understand like the wider picture really.
22:15
But it still feels wrong. You know what I mean?
22:17
To put that kid up there and exploit that kid to emotionally
22:22
manipulate people to donate or whatever it might be.
22:24
But I think for that entire thing, you know, the song came
22:29
out, it went #1 instantly. The next someone in in the
22:32
summer of 85. Actually didn't even go number.
22:35
One, I thought it went number one that December.
22:38
Eventually, right? OK, but it wasn't for Christmas.
22:40
WAM actually were number 10 of last Christmas.
22:44
So they took it. They took the number one back by
22:46
Christmas. I think they took it back after
22:48
Christmas and all of WAM donated all of its proceeds to OK.
22:54
Yeah, the, the famine, the famine response, yeah.
22:56
And I think in total, they estimated that, you know, the
22:59
Band-Aid and Live Aid raised about $150 million to the relief
23:05
effort, which is a significant amount of money, let's be real.
23:09
And I think the total effort was about 2 billion.
23:12
So for, you know, Band-Aid to have raised that much, I think
23:16
it's a significant amount. And there's no doubt that that
23:18
save lives. And I think in that particular
23:20
moment, it's it's important to have the immediate response.
23:24
But like you say, for the lasting impact is damaging.
23:28
Like is painting Africa. Like, if you think about the
23:31
lyrics of the song, the lyrics, yeah, the lyrics of the song is
23:34
like, at Christmas time is hard, but while you're having fun,
23:37
there's a world outside your window and it's a world full of
23:40
dread and fear where a kiss of love can kill you.
23:43
You're basically saying Africa is a world of dread and fear.
23:47
Like, and when, like you said, people were ignorant at that
23:50
time about the reality of Africa.
23:52
You're filling the that gap of information with that.
23:56
With misinformation, basically that one of the lyrics was
23:59
there's no peace and joy in West Africa.
24:02
I'm telling you my my brothers were in Nigeria this last week.
24:06
Yeah, were in. Were in Nigeria for Christmas
24:09
and they had a lot of peace and a lot of.
24:12
Joy to the joy, yeah. Yeah, in West Africa, but.
24:15
And it's it's, it's a mad thing to say.
24:17
Let's even say it was true. It's a mad thing for you as a
24:21
white guy to write down on a piece of paper and sing into a
24:24
mic. Who the hell are you?
24:27
Like one of my problems and you touched on it with Band-Aid.
24:30
The inception of Band-Aid is that they weren't Africans
24:32
involved from the. Stock so. 40 years later, when
24:36
an African tells you, look guy, this don't work for Africans,
24:40
This doesn't work for he he, he's gone in if he's ODG doesn't
24:43
work for Ghana, doesn't work for any country in Africa.
24:46
And you're like, well, I wrote the song.
24:47
The song's done. Like, I can't change it now.
24:50
It just shows like how different it could have been if you had
24:53
Africans involved from the start, if you had African voices
24:56
in the inception of Band-Aid and Live Aid.
24:59
The lasting impact of it could have been so much better.
25:01
And some of those negative connotations could have been
25:03
avoided. You know what I mean?
25:04
It could have been avoided so easily.
25:07
And like, if we think about the lasting impact, you know,
25:10
Starving Marvin, he's a South Park character in one of the
25:13
episodes, the episode is called Starving Marvin.
25:16
And he like the the boys, like they win a raffle or something.
25:21
And the, the prize that they win is like a starving kid from
25:23
Ethiopia. And he comes off the plane and
25:25
starving Marvin. And it's just like this skinny
25:28
black kid who's just unfortunate.
25:31
He's just a sad, he paints a sad picture.
25:33
And like, to this day, we still say starving Marvin.
25:37
Like you will have heard someone say, oh, when they're hungry,
25:40
I'm starving Marvin. That is lasting impact.
25:43
That's 40 years after the fact. Yeah.
25:44
Do you know what I mean? And starving Marvin is an
25:47
Ethiopian kid. There are Americans right now to
25:50
this day that associate Ethiopia with famine.
25:52
Yeah, because that's what they know.
25:53
That's what they all they've seen.
25:55
And I think is, is is very harmful.
25:57
And it negates the beauty, prosperity and innovation that
26:00
Africa has to offer. And what I think gets lost a lot
26:05
is when it's a human thing, like when you tell someone this is
26:13
wrong, their first responses to say, but we did all of this.
26:19
That helped. Defence.
26:20
And, and it's true. Two things can be true.
26:24
Everything means something. Something doesn't mean
26:25
everything. And you need to sort of accept
26:29
that like that. Oh, we've, we may have just kind
26:32
of done it wrong, but our intentions were right.
26:35
How, how, how can we now bridge that gap?
26:39
And when I was coming through the comments, it was sort of
26:42
like, oh, fuck off, Ed Sheeran, fuck off, Fuse.
26:45
Like it's done good. And it's like.
26:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't just accept that.
26:51
We can't just accept that, yeah, it's probably a net positive
26:55
overall, but it's done so much harm.
26:57
We have to find a way to do better, no?
27:01
100 percent, 100% and like we've got to embrace the complexity
27:04
like it can have done good and have a bad lasting impact.
27:07
It's not just like one or the other.
27:09
And I think in the YouTube comments, people are just like
27:12
just I want one answer. I want it to just have it I
27:15
have. It black and white.
27:17
It's not much easy to accept when this is right, this is
27:19
wrong. Like the brain I think naturally
27:22
wants to be able to say this is right and this is wrong and then
27:27
create emotions towards the answer that you believe to be
27:31
true. A. 100% but.
27:33
Yeah, it's just a little bit. It's just far more nuance than
27:35
that. It's tough as well.
27:36
Like imagine if you've enjoyed that song for the last 40 years
27:40
or you donated to Band-Aid in some respect.
27:44
If you accept Fuse, ODG or anyone's critique about
27:47
Band-Aid, it feels like a personal attack to you.
27:50
It's like you did the wrong thing at that time when it's not
27:52
that. It's not that simple.
27:53
Like you probably helped at that time, but let's now listen to
27:56
the Africans when they speak. Do you know what I mean?
27:58
The, the erasure's mad. Like the moment the black guy
28:01
speaks about the African problem, it's like, oh, shut up.
28:07
Like, oh, here we fucking go again.
28:08
You know what I mean? Go again.
28:11
You know that starving Marvin thing?
28:13
Starving Marvin as an episode was the most successful episode
28:17
in South Park's history. So that episode reached 8
28:21
million American people, 8 million people.
28:25
It's just crazy to think that like in the 80s, white Americans
28:30
were turned on their screens and associate Ethiopian Ness with
28:34
hunger, famine and unfortunately.
28:35
That's not even that. That's obviously a major
28:39
problem, but it's not even just Ethiopia.
28:41
It was every African was now painted with that same brush.
28:44
And that's just so problematic for black people because not
28:50
only does it affect then Africans, it then effects black
28:53
people around the world. Everywhere across the Western
28:56
world, like you can imagine kids going to school, their lens
28:59
through which their peers see them.
29:00
Yeah, it's a mad, it's a mad situation for for kids to be in.
29:03
Because when those white kids are young, they've spent all
29:06
their Christmases, all their time with probably other white
29:08
people, and then they go to school and when they're finally
29:11
socialised with other black people, the, the association
29:16
that they have is what they've seen on television with black
29:18
people with flowers on their face.
29:19
And yeah, it's just so, so horrible that that's happened.
29:23
And what I don't love about our conversation now is we're
29:27
talking about what's wrong with it when we think it's a net
29:30
positive, you know what I mean? So we, we also do have to pay
29:33
credit to, to the fact that they did something.
29:36
Absolutely. It's so easy to say something,
29:38
but they did something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:40
To help people. They did what for most people,
29:43
would be impossible to do precisely.
29:45
They pulled it off exactly, and that's amazing in and of itself.
29:49
I guess, though, in the wider society, Bob Goldoff has his
29:54
praise. You've got enough praise, he
29:56
doesn't need additional praise from me and you here.
29:58
Yeah, of course. Like he's.
30:01
I just want to be fair, like, yeah.
30:02
Let's be fair. Let's be.
30:03
Fair. We can sign the net positive.
30:05
They talk about how much negative, Yeah.
30:07
Fair, fair, fair play. All right.
30:11
Thank you for joining us. We appreciate you.
30:15
Much love. See.
30:15
You next week all cameras are on.
30:30
Oh good, we're cooking. Nice, let's go discuss Band-Aid
30:35
this Christmas. Now bear with me, Bro Bear.
30:41
With me I've not. Flexed that muscle into.
30:47
That wouldn't be possible, I'm afraid.
30:49
Oh, is it lovely.