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Have The Cardinals Done Enough To Contend? · Kenny Wallace Media

0:00
What's up everybody? Charlie Marlow here.
0:02
Brendan Schaefer, Brand new podcast.
0:04
We don't even have a name for it.
0:06
So if you have a name, reply in the comments with the name.
0:09
We'll get to that. That's not that important
0:11
because on YouTube we got to hit the whole.
0:14
I will say first though, Brendan, how you doing buddy?
0:17
Hey, I'm doing great, man. Just making our way through the
0:20
Cardinal offseason here. Looking forward to winter warm
0:22
up coming up this weekend. I hate the weather right now,
0:25
but spring is around the corner. I believe it in my soul.
0:28
So we'll be we'll be all right here in a few weeks.
0:31
I do have a credential for winter warm up.
0:33
I'm not sure I'm going to go, but I might.
0:37
I might go. I might go.
0:39
All right, let's start off like this big picture.
0:42
I'll ask you first and then I'll.
0:44
I'll give you my answer. This is an easy one.
0:46
Or maybe not. Just give me.
0:48
Give me your grade letter grade. You can do pluses and minuses
0:51
also for the Cardinals offseason so far.
0:55
What's their letter grade? Man.
0:57
And I guess part of that is, do you assume they could do a
1:00
little bit more or do they have room to do a little bit more?
1:03
I feel like it's a passing grade, certainly, but I'm not
1:06
necessarily going to give it super high marks.
1:09
I'm I'm leaning toward like B minus right now and I don't know
1:12
if that's like the the fun part about this is I don't know of
1:15
saying that Cardinals fans will go, Oh my gosh, what a Homer or
1:18
give him some credit. Like I truly have no idea what
1:21
the reaction to that would be. But I knew, OK, well we knew the
1:25
needs going in. I'll, I'll.
1:26
I'll explain my rationale and then let you go.
1:28
We knew the needs were like 3 starting pitchers and then when
1:30
Mozilla kind of dialed that back to well maybe 2 1/2, it was like
1:34
OK, how how much are they actually going to do?
1:36
They got their three, they got them in a very Cardinals Y way.
1:40
And so I don't think that's exciting for people.
1:43
I think they built a foundation, a floor, didn't really chase
1:46
ceiling with those additions, but they made those moves.
1:49
I think it had to happen and Sunny Gray is a good kind of top
1:52
half of the rotation guy. So that's something.
1:54
And then I do think the move that was announced this week
1:56
with Heim Bloom was was a was a solid move as well that I'm
1:59
going to give him a little bit of credit for because of his
2:01
track record with pitcher development in Tampa.
2:04
And then you know Boston's farm system, say what you will about
2:07
their big league team when he was there, their farm system has
2:09
made their way toward the top of the rankings as well.
2:12
So I'll give him some credit for that and go B minus for the time
2:14
being. So I'm going to ask you about
2:16
Heim Bloom in a second here, but the reason I interjected is a
2:20
lot of people have been commenting on my YouTube and
2:24
we'll tell people to obviously subscribe to yours as well at
2:27
the end, of course, after they watch, yours is the one.
2:30
Mine's the peasant one. That's good.
2:32
I like that's. No.
2:33
Just watch my videos first, then Brendan.
2:36
No, it's funny, you ever. I do this all the time.
2:39
I I argue with myself, right? I argue with myself.
2:42
So it's important for me to put this out there, 'cause I have
2:45
many times before the season, the offseason started, I said
2:50
the Cardinals, in my opinion, needed to get 2 starting
2:52
pitchers that were better than Miles Michaelis.
2:55
That's what I said before the winter.
2:57
Well, they haven't done that in my opinion.
2:59
So when I did one of these for myself and I said I think the
3:02
Cardinals, I think I said B or B -, I can't remember.
3:05
It was definitely ABA. Lot of people like no one agreed
3:09
with me. OK, some people did.
3:12
But then I started to argue with myself and I said, OK, this is
3:15
like Austin Powers allowing myself to introduce myself.
3:18
But if I said before the winter the Cardinals have to get 2
3:22
pitchers better than Miles Michaelis and I feel they
3:24
haven't achieved that, how can I give them a good grade, which I
3:28
think is a fair thing to say. So whether it's BB minus C plus,
3:34
I think that's I think that's fair.
3:36
But I also think it might be good enough for the Cardinals to
3:39
get into the play offs with what they have.
3:42
But what I didn't like was I just all along I thought this
3:47
Cardinals were going to sign Sonny Grey.
3:49
I think everybody thought that. Not just a Sonny Grey pitcher,
3:52
literally Sunny Grey. OK, they were going to sign
3:56
somebody from what I called the Michael Waka Bucket.
3:58
It didn't end up being Michael Waka, but I put Kyle Gibson and
4:01
Lance Lynn in that bucket. The other one was the trade for
4:05
the whoever you wanted. The Ceases of the world, the
4:07
Logan Gilberts, even an Alec Manoa whoever.
4:10
A high end or high upside trade piece.
4:13
So I think they did the sunny Gray, they've skipped the trade
4:16
piece. They grabbed two people from the
4:18
Michael Walker bucket and it wasn't Michael Walker.
4:20
But still. So I can't, I can't hate on him
4:24
because I think when Mozalak said three pitchers then he
4:26
dialed it back, then I'm thinking are they even going to
4:27
get three? Well, they got three.
4:29
I think most people like two of them.
4:31
They have nothing against really either Lynn or Gibson.
4:34
It's more the fact that it's two of those type of guys.
4:38
Yeah, two of those guys that you feel like you're establishing
4:41
the floor for your rotation instead of chasing ceiling.
4:44
Although, like you could make the argument with Lance Lynn.
4:47
Last year's Chicago White Sox were a lot like the Cardinals
4:49
just didn't go the way they thought it would.
4:51
They had more talent than probably the record indicated.
4:54
And I wonder if it was a very good environment to to play
4:57
successfully. And you know Lance Lane, you
4:59
know how he is. It might have just been, you
5:01
know what, I just got to stay in my lane and strike out a bunch
5:04
of dudes and give up a bunch of home runs and and just let the
5:07
chips fall where they may. In a better environment, which
5:10
hopefully this year's Cardinals clubhouse is, could Lance Lane
5:13
return to being kind of what he had been before last year?
5:16
I think there's a chance of that now.
5:17
Is that better than Miles Michaelis?
5:19
It depends on if Miles Michaelis returns to being better than he
5:22
was last year. So, like, there's there.
5:25
You could make the argument in favor of the Cardinals if you
5:27
wanted to. But I think for a lot of
5:29
Cardinals fans, it's like, all right, this team just won 71
5:31
games. Do we really need to strain
5:33
ourselves to make the argument in favor of them?
5:36
Or is the burden on the Cardinals to make the moves that
5:39
are so clearly and obviously a winner in the offseason that you
5:43
can then kind of have the fans reinvest?
5:45
I I feel like that's part of the attitude as well with people
5:47
that would say B minus you're, you know, you're being, you're
5:50
being too generous. OK, you mentioned the 71 wins.
5:54
I've had some people. This is where I do my own straw
5:56
man argument, where I'm arguing against the people that have
5:58
made comments over the last several months.
6:00
But I I think a lot of the comments.
6:02
These things, though, because when you're in, when you're
6:04
doing a podcast by yourself, that's why I'm so glad that
6:06
we're linking up to do this once a week.
6:07
When you're doing it by yourself, you have to sort of
6:10
have multiple personalities or it gets kind of stale after a
6:13
while. So I I get it when you say these
6:14
things. But also, and I joke because
6:17
some of the comments are crazy, but a lot of them are really
6:19
smart, there's a lot of smart Cardinal baseball fans, you know
6:21
that that like to jump in and and talk.
6:23
So here's here's another one of my takes that I actually think
6:27
is pretty positive for the Cardinals because I don't think
6:31
the Cardinals were really a 71 win team last year.
6:34
And what I mean by that is more so I think if you said, oh, the
6:38
Cardinals are going to jump from seventy wins to 90, that feels
6:41
like a huge jump, right? I think there's a good chance
6:44
they do that because, look, last year started terrible at the
6:48
deadline, they sold away. So whatever they were a 10 games
6:53
below 500 team. They brought up a 4A roster,
6:56
they became a 20 games below. Which is fine because to me,
6:59
once you tank, you should tank. You shouldn't even try.
7:01
I'm glad they did that. But my point is more so if a
7:05
couple things go better early, the Cardinals aren't really that
7:09
bad. And here's another thing.
7:11
Look, we all love Wayno and his concerts and all that.
7:13
I think sometimes we forget how bad Wayno.
7:15
Wayno was literally one of the worst pitchers in the history of
7:20
baseball. For how many starts he got, all
7:23
you need is all you need is something to be league average
7:26
in his spot, and that's a huge improvement.
7:29
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think the Cardinals
7:32
jumping from seventy wins to 90 is something that could totally
7:37
happen with relative ease this year.
7:41
And I I agree with pretty much everything that you said.
7:43
And I've echoed some of those sentiments on my on my channel
7:45
as well. Like when you think about April,
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they go 10 and 19. And there was, it seemed like as
7:51
it became clear that last year was a bust, everybody was
7:54
starting to kind of figure out why and when any topic of the
7:58
World Baseball Classic would come up, Cardinals fans would
8:00
freak out. Like they're just making
8:02
excuses. But I think there might be
8:04
something to the fact that when you have so many changes on the
8:06
coaching staff, in the catcher in particular, because that was
8:10
a hot button issue at the time as well, Contreras said.
8:12
Hey, I want to be in spring training, not going to do the
8:14
WBC. A lot of the pitchers didn't say
8:17
that. And then lo and behold, a month
8:18
into the season, you're benching your catcher because there's
8:21
something you know, there's just enough going on that everybody's
8:24
not on the same page. I would make the case that if
8:26
the Cardinals didn't go 10 and 19 in April, if it's, you know,
8:30
13 and 16 even or 14 and 15, you're a little bit closer to
8:33
striking distance. They might not have felt
8:35
compelled to press the panic button on the Contreras thing in
8:38
the way that they did, Which Mosalak back in December in
8:41
Nashville at the winter meetings, said, yeah, we were
8:43
not even thinking the catcher situation from Yadi to a new
8:46
catcher could go smoothly. And we wish we had handled that
8:49
not so publicly in the way that we benched Contreras.
8:52
And I think they could have kept it in house if it would have
8:54
been a little bit better in April and the snowball doesn't
8:57
roll down the hill the way that it did.
8:58
I think that had an impact to where when you're chasing behind
9:01
the 8 ball the rest of the year and then you get to the trade
9:03
deadline and it's over and then somebody gets a hangnail in
9:06
August or September and they're on the IL to end the season.
9:09
Like it just didn't matter at that point.
9:10
You don't run Wainwright out, but the way that you did if you
9:13
actually had a chance to come back.
9:15
So like all of those elements, I do think it took a maybe it was
9:18
an 80 win roster, but it took that down to 71 by the end of
9:21
the year. That's I'm in 100% agreement.
9:25
That's why the jump to me to 90 is more like a 10.
9:28
It's like A10 win jump. It's not a twenty win jump.
9:32
The Contreras thing, still, as much as we talked about it, it's
9:35
almost like we don't talk about it enough.
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That was just one of the weirdest things I've ever seen
9:39
of a of a dude who's caught for seven or eight years who they
9:42
say, hey, you can't you can't even catch.
9:44
It's it's nutty. So OK, Hind Bloom the news this
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week. I'm I'm a big fan of it.
9:50
I'll start with you though. Give me give me your thoughts on
9:53
Time Bloom as an advisor. A big fan of it?
9:56
No. I guess I'll add more than that
9:58
since that's what you said. I think it's good because when
10:01
you think about what Cardinals fans have longed for, like, we
10:05
both hear a lot of the same comments from the fan base and
10:07
it's like me and those Tampa Bay Rays.
10:09
Why can't the Cardinals be like the Rays?
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They always develop pictures. They make the right trades.
10:13
Their their evaluation of talent seems to be on point.
10:16
Like, but I can't. The Cardinals do those things,
10:19
and you're taking one of the architects of that era of the
10:22
Rays, and adding him to your staff.
10:25
Like, if you wanted to just be a simpler boilerplate sentence, I
10:28
think that would be the way that you would describe it.
10:30
And from that perspective, Cardinal fans, I would have to
10:33
think, would be on board with it.
10:34
And the guy knows his pitching and even like not just the
10:37
obvious. Oh, get the top prospects and
10:39
and draft well and all these things.
10:41
But I think the evaluation of the trades the Rays have made
10:44
over the years. It's really interesting that
10:46
when you look at already at this Cardinals offseason, the number
10:48
of guys that Heim Bloom has had familiarity with from a pitcher
10:52
perspective. Not star guys, but kind of in
10:54
that next year as the Cardinals look to build their bullpen, I
10:57
wonder if they see the benefits of that right away.
10:59
Because there's already a handful of guys, Kittredge from
11:02
Tampa, the Boston guys, and even Riley O'Brien.
11:05
That was a Mariners trade, but he was drafted by the Rays when
11:07
Bloom was there. So that stuff that I've imagined
11:10
he was advising on or or green lighting, whether he was like
11:13
spearheading or just saying, yeah, these are good guys to go
11:15
after it, I don't know if it makes a difference.
11:17
I think his impact could be felt right away.
11:20
And All in all, I think it's a positive move to Adam, IA. 100%
11:24
agree. We got, we got to, we got to
11:26
debate more. I have to disagree with you,
11:27
but. We have to come up with some
11:28
some. Discord, we will.
11:30
We will, I'm sure. No, I think it's interesting
11:32
like Kit Ridge is a proven commodity.
11:34
But as you mentioned, Bloom has either seen or had his hands on
11:38
all these guys from these these moves, which I think is not a
11:41
coincidence. But the one for me is Nick
11:43
Robertson. Like I brought this up on the
11:45
radio. I don't know anything about Nick
11:47
Robertson. I'm not going to pretend like I
11:48
did, but I didn't know anything about Giovanni Gallegos when
11:51
they made that move for Luke Voit.
11:53
And we're all talking about Chase and Shreve who ended up
11:56
being nothing. And Giovanni Gallegos has been
11:59
one of the Cardinals best two or three relievers for four or five
12:02
years. So I think Hein Bloom, the fact
12:06
that he did what he did with the Rays.
12:09
The Cardinals and the Rays have the same blueprint, which to me
12:11
is probably part of the reason that Hind Bloom didn't work with
12:15
the Red Sox. They always want the big move,
12:17
but they rip them. For Mookie Betts they had
12:20
competitive, competitive, balance, tax issues, but the
12:22
Cardinals don't really want to make the big move.
12:25
So like Boston fans who were pissed at Bloom for not making
12:28
the big move. Well, in the Cardinals front
12:30
office, they're like, hey, you're our same brain with, but
12:34
we have two to three times the payroll as the race.
12:37
So I think it's a much better fit with the Cardinals.
12:40
And then I'll advance the story here because, you know, I put my
12:43
tinfoil hat on. But this is what I first thought
12:46
about. I'm just thinking, OK, let's be
12:47
honest. John Mozalak has what we think
12:51
is 2 years left. It seemed like he rolled out the
12:55
not the succession plan, but the plan that he's going to step
12:59
away at that spring training last year, whenever that was.
13:01
So you got Gersh, you got Randy Flores.
13:04
Well, the Cardinals like in house skies.
13:07
Well, now Heim Bloom's in house. And let's be real, the the
13:10
competitive advantage the Cardinals had that built those
13:13
amazing teams from 11 to 15, that competitive analytic
13:18
advantage is gone and maybe everybody knows that.
13:20
I'm not saying they're terrible. They just don't have like that
13:23
big time advantage. And so maybe if Mozalak steps
13:27
away in two years, maybe this is the time where it makes sense to
13:30
go outside of the organization, even though it's a guy who could
13:33
still theoretically be here. So the conspiracy theorist in
13:37
me, I also wonder about two years from now, if you have
13:40
Gersh and you have Flores, they like them both.
13:42
Flores have been great with the draft, but man, if you got a guy
13:45
sitting in your organization as an advisor who's been the man
13:48
with the raise in the Red Sox, it's also hard to pass that dude
13:51
up if he's still there and he hasn't taken their job.
13:54
And if he wants that again, right?
13:56
Because part of the story of Hind Bloom after the Red Sox
13:59
fired him was like, he's ready to step back for a little while,
14:01
not trying to jump right into another Pobo job, which is
14:05
perfect for this, right? He's part time.
14:07
He's not even relocating to Saint Louis at this point.
14:10
And so you, you get your feet wet a little bit for a couple of
14:13
years, You learn the insurance and outs of the organization.
14:16
And then somebody with that pedigree, could he decide in two
14:20
years that he'd like to step back into that role and take the
14:22
reins of an organization? I think it's conceivable.
14:26
And you think about the way that Bill DeWitt likes to operate
14:29
this ownership group and John Mozalak like it was a big deal
14:32
when they replaced Walt Jockey, right.
14:35
And that that's been 1520 years ago at this point.
14:38
And we haven't seen that kind of big move since then.
14:41
And so they like that continuity.
14:43
And so when John Mozalak says, yeah, you know I I think this
14:46
will probably be my last contract as the head guy running
14:49
the Cardinals to to find the next guy and to be able to kind
14:53
of have someone that you think is quality, which I think Hind
14:56
Bloom is. And that's not to denigrate the
14:58
guys they've got in house. But doesn't it feel like the
15:01
Cardinals could benefit from a little bit of a a change of
15:03
perspective with the way things have gone over the last few
15:06
years. So I think for me right now, and
15:08
this is just speculative, if I if you had to place the betting
15:11
odds, he'd be my favorite over the the others that are in house
15:14
to take over in a couple of years.
15:16
And I think it'll come down to his influence being positive for
15:20
two years. And then does he want that step
15:22
up and responsibility when the time comes?
15:24
If those two things happen, I think he'd be favored over
15:27
Flores over Gersh at this moment in time.
15:30
OK, so I asked you earlier about the grade, but that was an
15:33
offseason grade. How do you flip that into how
15:36
good you think the Cardinals will actually be?
15:38
And if you want to throw a win total, you can.
15:40
You don't have to. You know, I'm asking you this
15:42
question, but, and I was going to ask you in the scope of the
15:46
division, but like the Cubs haven't done anything yet, you
15:48
know, so I mean. Show to Imanaga.
15:50
Hello. I mean, that's big time.
15:52
So that was just yesterday. But I'm I'm.
15:54
You can take this however way you want it.
15:56
Just how good do you think the Cardinals will be or a win total
16:00
or within the division, which it seems like.
16:02
I mean the Brewers, what the hell are they going to do?
16:04
I mean I, I don't know the Reds. I guess they could be good.
16:07
What do you think? I think the division is there
16:09
and I wonder if part of the Cardinals strategy because I
16:12
don't think they have gotten to a level above the like the
16:16
payroll expectation that they sort of set in the beginning of
16:19
the offseason when they said, oh, we could go to this level.
16:21
I I don't know all the numbers offhand.
16:23
Some of the people that do are, you know they they get really
16:25
into the nitty gritty and I'm like yeah whatever.
16:28
But I think I I think there would be more room.
16:30
But then you see Bill DeWitt the third saying recently, well we
16:33
no, no big moves probably as as it pertains to payroll moving
16:36
forward. So that kind of makes you wonder
16:38
exactly what they're thinking is if it's another division hasn't
16:41
done much so maybe we're kind of good where we are.
16:44
I, I, I was asked this question on a podcast within the last
16:47
week but in the context of when I do those polls at the
16:51
beginning of the season on Twitter, the win total and I
16:53
want to know what Cardinals fans think.
16:55
I wasn't asked what do you think the win total is?
16:57
I was asked where would you put the poll that you think
16:59
Cardinals fans would would be about a 5050 split and I think I
17:03
landed on like 86. 1/2 as of right now feels like about the
17:07
number and that's an interesting spot because it could be enough
17:10
to win the division depending on what happens with some of those
17:13
other teams. But it's not going to satisfy
17:15
Cardinals fans. If you sneak in with 86 wins and
17:18
then it's a it's another kind of 2021 first round elimination in
17:22
in a best two out of three. But I think that's kind of about
17:25
where they are right now at least with what you could expect
17:28
them to do because they've the floor is better.
17:31
Like you're not going to run out Adam Wainwright.
17:33
You're not going to run out Dakota Hudson or Jake Woodford
17:35
or Drew ROM for these starts barring a lot of injuries.
17:38
And so that's going to help by itself.
17:41
They haven't done a lot in the bullpen.
17:43
You'd think that like one more really key arm could be that
17:47
that guy to make you feel like, OK, get through 6 innings with
17:50
these starters and then lock it down with the pen.
17:52
Kittredge maybe will be that, you know coming off of an injury
17:55
you're not 100% sure. Offensively, I'm still intrigued
17:58
to see what like kind of how they align the the offense and
18:01
the defense and and get the guys in there that need to be in
18:03
there every day. I don't know, like I feel like
18:06
they're mid 80s right now and and it could certainly be worse
18:09
because things went wrong last year.
18:11
There's nothing to say that things won't go wrong again this
18:13
year, But if you wanted to be optimistic and say things could
18:16
go right in a way that they didn't in 23, yeah, like mid to
18:19
upper 80s seems possible. But what I guarantee that like I
18:23
don't feel comfortable with that at this point.
18:25
But it's possible that they're are they favored to win the
18:28
division. There's a lot of teams that
18:30
could do it. It's kind of wide open right
18:31
now. This is what I find funny is.
18:35
And maybe I'm too realistic, because sometimes when I'm
18:40
thinking about the Cardinals, you know how this goes.
18:42
You've covered the Cardinals a long time.
18:44
I've been here 16 years. I've stopped really wishing
18:49
because I know and I'm not. I'm not some genius, but you
18:53
know how the Cardinals do business, right?
18:56
So, like, when they're done, they're probably done.
18:59
You almost know what they're going to do before they do it.
19:02
So that decreases my expectations immediately.
19:06
I understand why the fans want more, but we kind of know what
19:10
the Cardinals are going to do. The reason I bring this up is I
19:13
find this funny because last winter and you're on radio, I'm
19:16
on radio. All we talked about was the
19:19
Cardinals need to go beyond the 90 win or whatever. 88 wins,
19:25
maybe win the Central, maybe get a wild card.
19:27
First round exit fans were pissed about that.
19:30
That's where the Cardinals were. Let's be real.
19:33
I'm bad with math, but what? 20/21/22 they were 88 to 91,
19:39
whatever the hell. Maybe you win the Central, maybe
19:41
you get a wild card. Nobody thinks you're elite.
19:43
Nobody thinks you're really a World Series contender.
19:45
You get broomed quick in the playoffs.
19:48
We were complaining about that. We said we wanted more. 2023 was
19:53
so bad. We've now dialed it back to
19:56
hoping we can get back to the 90 wins that we complained about
20:01
last winter. That's a great way to take some
20:04
pressure off yourself if you're the Cardinals just have a
20:06
terrible year so that we're all sort of manipulated into
20:09
thinking that the previous status quo, which everybody
20:12
hated, is now the goal. Like, that's brilliant.
20:15
It's very Cardinals. The whole thing is very
20:17
Cardinals. And you mentioned like, knowing
20:18
the moves are going to make before they make them.
20:21
We we all had the Sonny Gray thing pegged way in advance and
20:24
I think that probably kind of grates on MO that it's so
20:27
predictable what they do because then when they do the thing,
20:30
it's not that anybody's really excited about it.
20:32
They're like, OK, that the thing that we knew, you can check that
20:35
off the list. Now what he's like, what do you
20:37
mean? Now what?
20:38
We just did the big thing. That was it.
20:40
That was the big thing. It happened last year with
20:42
Contreras. Like you could look at it and go
20:44
well, the Cardinals could get bold here.
20:46
They could get creative. They could trade for a catcher
20:48
or they could just say well we need a catcher who's going to
20:51
who's the biggest name out there that we could get.
20:53
Let's have a meeting with him and if we like it maybe we'll
20:55
just sign him in. We can relax because we we did
20:58
the thing we set out to do. I think it's just like that very
21:02
A to B mindset that the Cardinals have to as quickly as
21:05
possible fix their issues so that the bottom doesn't drop out
21:09
of their their season and they lose a lot of ticket sales and
21:12
and fans support. Well they did that thing with
21:15
the catcher and they didn't do anything else and one thing led
21:18
to another and the bottom dropped out of their season.
21:20
So this year they really had to get out in front of it and be
21:23
like, we got to be correct about what's going to at least get us
21:25
to that 82 win mark so that we can at least kind of keep fan
21:29
interest intact. And before Thanksgiving, they
21:31
had their whole offseason finished.
21:33
Like that is such a good description that you gave of We
21:36
kind of know before they're going to do it what they're
21:38
going to do. And one way or another, it it
21:41
there's a way for fans to be disappointed at the end of it.
21:43
They'll be happy if somehow the the win total exceeds
21:46
expectations. But after a season like they
21:48
just had, I think people wanted something, something flashy in
21:51
the offseason. And I don't know if they really
21:52
got it. Yeah, it's funny.
21:54
You mentioned Sonny Gray. You like to gamble.
21:56
I like to gamble. I I think I would have put my
21:58
entire family's life savings that the Cardinals would have
22:01
signed Sonny Gray. No one has ever more felt like a
22:05
cardinal from who he is, his age and his price point ever.
22:10
And this is not just me and you. Everyone said that like Sonny
22:12
Gray is a cardinal. He just is.
22:14
Everything about him screams Saint Louis Cardinal.
22:17
OK, so here's another kind of topic based off that and this.
22:21
This gets me back to last year also when we all say the
22:27
Cardinals are going to make the playoffs, which I I thought they
22:29
were the last several years and I still probably think they will
22:32
this year. But I think it's important to
22:33
note that at least me, I'll speak for myself.
22:37
I think when I say the Cardinals are going to make the playoffs
22:40
these last several years when they've had pitching issues, I
22:43
mean, this year you have pitchers, they're all 35 to 36,
22:45
whatever, 34 years old. My mindset is more of I think
22:50
the Cardinals, from an organizational standpoint, are
22:52
going to be good enough, as they were in, what, 21 and 22, to be
22:57
around 500 at the break. Add the pitching, whether it's
23:01
Lester and Hap or Montgomery and Quintana, to then get to the 88
23:05
to 90 wins. And I think it's important to
23:07
note that because a lot of people, me included, said that
23:10
last year. Nobody said the Cardinals were
23:12
this. Everybody knew the starting
23:14
pitching was terrible. I mean, did you read one
23:16
projection? Nothing.
23:18
No one said maybe, maybe mid pack.
23:20
I mean, maybe somebody said the Cardinals rotation was 13, but I
23:23
saw 18th, 2720, sixth, whatever. I think everybody thought they
23:28
were going to have to add. So in saying that, I think the
23:30
Cardinals are good and going to make the playoffs.
23:32
I still feel like they'll probably be around 500, maybe a
23:36
little above. Come on.
23:37
Some of These, one of these pitchers, they're all 35.
23:40
One of these guys is going to get hurt.
23:41
They're probably going to have to add, but I think most teams
23:44
add a starter and a reliever at the deadline to get to the
23:47
playoffs. So I think the Cardinals are in
23:49
a similar spot as they were the last 3-4 years.
23:52
But last year, just everything went to shit.
23:55
You know, we thought though like there was an angle of last year
23:58
and the my favorite word to use is one that Mozilla has used
24:01
before because I think it describes their mindset, is when
24:04
he says, well, that would be complicated.
24:06
Last year people wanted the Cardinals to add more pitching.
24:09
But when you went down the list at who they already had, they
24:12
were paying six guys. Like Dakota Hudson was number
24:14
six and he was making, you know, a few $1,000,000, you know, and
24:19
and what are you going to do at that point?
24:21
You got to get a free agent and say, well, we've got these guys
24:24
you're going to compete with to be our number four or our #5
24:27
like that. I understand where MO was coming
24:29
from from that perspective when he talked about it prior to
24:32
2023, saying if those pitchers in the free agent market didn't
24:36
really find our situation to be intriguing to them.
24:40
And I would understand why that is.
24:41
There is this thing in Major League Baseball called a trade
24:44
that you can do and we can force a pitcher against his will to
24:47
come to your team. And it a lot of times like the
24:49
Cardinals this offseason, what did MO say?
24:51
Well, all these guys wanted to be Cardinals, so he signed them.
24:54
Like that's a good thing. That's a noble thing to want to
24:56
have. But, like, when you need a
24:58
certain thing that doesn't exist in the free agent market or it's
25:01
going to cost you more than you want to pay for it occasionally,
25:04
you do have to send talent to get those players.
25:07
And that's what's tricky about this offseason, because we saw
25:11
their approach last year, which was to not make any of those
25:13
trades, to clear up some of the roster glut and to get some
25:16
things that they needed that they didn't have.
25:18
And so coming into this offseason, it was like, well,
25:20
surely they recognize that maybe you do sometimes have to make an
25:24
uncomfortable trade to get what you don't have.
25:26
And there are options out there. Like if you if you go pay up for
25:29
a Dylan sees it can be done. Maybe he doesn't end up getting
25:32
traded and so MO's defense will be well, he didn't get traded.
25:36
So that tells you what they're asking price was I get that.
25:38
But at a certain point there are guys that have moved.
25:41
You know, I was I thought Tyler Glass now would be a nice fit.
25:44
Now the Dodgers gave up a nice young pitcher to get him from
25:46
the Rays. So there are there are reasons
25:48
that the Cardinals don't make some of these moves.
25:50
But if you were serious about, hey, 2024 is the year that we're
25:54
really going to have to fix things and and reinstill some
25:57
faith from the fanbase, I feel like something like that, that
26:00
gives you some upside within your rotation.
26:02
Even Manoa, like you said, could be a bust.
26:04
Maybe he's broken, but there, there, it seemed there would be
26:07
room. So you mentioned roster glut and
26:09
we've talked mostly about pitching so far, but I'm
26:13
intrigued to get your opinion on the on the roster glut in the
26:16
outfield. So they obviously trade
26:19
Palacios, they trade Tyler O'Neil.
26:21
I think we all knew they had to get rid of some outfielders.
26:25
I am a Tommy Edmond at second base guy.
26:28
I just think the Cardinals are better overall defensively.
26:31
I just love having a Gold Glove second baseman.
26:33
I understand he can play center field, but I think that's also
26:38
more about who else they have in center field.
26:40
So the fact that the Cardinals said Tommy Edmond is going to
26:43
start the year as a as an outfielder.
26:46
OK so now you got let's just say Edmond and center Walker and
26:49
Wright new bar to start and left.
26:52
I mean Dylan Carlson. I feel like this is his absolute
26:56
last year to prove anything. Does he even have any trade
26:59
value if he doesn't play? Well this year he has none
27:03
whatsoever. So I don't know like I I I kind
27:09
of argue with myself again about Tyler O'Neill they kind of
27:12
ruined that relationship. So I I understand why he had to
27:15
go at this point but that's their own fault.
27:17
Like they ruined that relationship and and it's his
27:19
fault too. But I don't know.
27:21
Like, I can see how a fan would think, well, you got rid of
27:25
O'Neill. He only had one year left with a
27:27
big crew of it. If he's healthy, he's going to
27:28
be good. Palacio Springs Energy.
27:30
He has six years. We liked that.
27:32
And you kept Carlson, right? You kept Carlson.
27:35
I don't know. I understand why fans kind of
27:37
bitch about that. I I do as well.
27:40
And I understand it too. And you can look at like their
27:42
past actions and that ends up being the type of thing they do
27:45
over and over again. There's a guy that conceivably
27:47
would be at the height of his trade value and you go, well,
27:50
we're, he's a building block, right?
27:51
You know, we can't possibly trade him.
27:53
And then he kind of loses that luster and you go, this is kind
27:57
of a line in the sand moment where you could trade him.
27:59
You could cut your losses and say, yeah, there was a point
28:01
where he was worth more, but he's not now and we got to live
28:03
in that reality. Or you can hold on until you
28:06
basically don't get much at all for the guy.
28:08
Last year that was the Tyler O'Neill year I feel like where
28:11
they said hey we're going to give you every chance to be a
28:14
main guy for us and it didn't work out and so they cut their
28:17
losses and at this point didn't care what they got for him.
28:20
I think Dylan Carlson is one year away from that unless he
28:23
should regain some value and and and find his self.
28:26
The issue for him is 2 injuries. Like he hasn't been able to stay
28:29
healthy in the same way that O'Neill.
28:30
It's just various maladies that that should strike him and and
28:35
you don't want to label a guy, but I think O'Neill certainly
28:37
has the injury prone label at this point.
28:39
Can Carlson have a healthy year to kind of get rid of that
28:42
stigma for himself. It's interesting though that you
28:44
mentioned Edmund at second base. I agree that I think if he
28:49
played second base and you didn't move him around he he's
28:51
obviously been a Gold Glover there.
28:53
Last year his numbers at second were terrible.
28:56
I continue to say that it's because you tell a guy he's
28:58
going to be the everyday shortstop, and then when the
29:01
young comes back, well, he can't possibly move off a shortstop.
29:03
He doesn't have the mentality for it.
29:05
So Tommy, it's you. And then he's, you know, being
29:08
being kind of jostled around a bunch until he finds himself in
29:11
center field defensively. But like, if Tommy's your second
29:14
baseman, I want to explore this. What do you do with Donovan
29:17
Gorman? Like, how do you let that play
29:19
out? Is the answer a trade?
29:20
Because if so, I could totally see that.
29:22
I think you'd need a good outfielder that you can trust in
29:26
center if you went that route. But I'm also kind of wondering
29:29
if there is no trade, does putting Tommy at 2nd just it
29:32
doesn't fit with the roster is kind of what I'm is, is what I'm
29:35
thinking about? I'm curious for your thought on
29:36
that. Yeah.
29:38
And when I said that, I mean, like in the Charlie Utopia, if
29:42
everything was perfect, if you had a center fielder that you
29:44
liked and whatever, a shortstop, I just like him better at 2nd.
29:48
But you bring up a good point. And here's something we We're
29:50
not talking about Mason Wynn. I think we're all assuming he's
29:54
going to be no, no, I love Mason Wynn, but we're all assuming
29:58
he's going to be your 140 game shortstop as a rookie.
30:02
So I hope he's good. But what if he doesn't hit?
30:05
That's another part of this. When you asked me that, the
30:08
first thing I thought of was it gets back to the way we started
30:11
this, where I thought the Cardinals were going to make a
30:13
significant trade. When I say significant trade for
30:17
a starting pitcher, I mean not trading Tyler O'Neill, not
30:21
trading Richie Palacios. I thought a Gorman or a Donovan
30:26
or an Edmond. So someone who is good has
30:29
value, especially Gorman or or Donovan.
30:33
And that would also relieve some of the questions we're asking
30:37
right now about where does every piece fit.
30:40
So I still think even though they got rid of two outfielders,
30:43
if Edmond is an outfielder. OK, so Gorman and Donovan split
30:49
up second base. I don't know.
30:51
I mean, Carlson will probably never play, which because
30:54
Donovan can play outfield. Let's be honest, don't you?
30:58
Don't you want Donovan? I mean, don't give me the give
31:02
me the opportunity that you want Carlson to play ever over over
31:08
Newt or I understand there's going to be rest days and all
31:10
that, right? But I mean, you're going to have
31:13
to make the choice of, OK, And then like Gorman sits on this
31:16
day or Donovan sits on this day, you got the DH.
31:19
But like most days, I'm going to say I want Carlson to sit.
31:23
Yeah, and it's interesting too, because if they're describing
31:26
Carlson as the backup to Edmond and center, they're kind of the
31:30
same guy. They both switch hit and you
31:32
both don't. You don't want both against
31:34
right-handed pitching like it's not a platoon.
31:36
If if Carlson was a switch hitter who was stronger against
31:39
right-handed pitching or vice versa with Edmond, then you
31:42
could say perfect. They match each other, but
31:44
they're the same. They're redundant.
31:46
Even in center field, they're redundant.
31:47
They can both play the position defensively, but it's not like a
31:50
good platoon match, which is again an example of the roster
31:54
not fitting together super well. But I agree with you like
31:57
Donovan. I I could paint it to where
31:58
Donovan plays some left field on days that Walker DH is because
32:02
if he doesn't end up being the outfielder they wanted to be,
32:05
this will be the year where they have to kind of put him at DHA
32:08
little bit more often and then think about his succession plan
32:11
to where eventually he plays first base more as Goldie
32:14
declines or whatever they do like.
32:16
That's part of it. I agree with you.
32:17
Like Carlson is the is like the the break glass center fielder
32:22
right now. If Edmond is your starting
32:24
center fielder, that I I think that's a fair way to put it.
32:27
And This is why I've always I've always said this with baseball.
32:31
If you just have a center fielder that you can plug in and
32:34
a shortstop that you can plug in, everything falls into place.
32:38
I know Harrison Bader was hurt, but when he was your center
32:40
fielder, everything else made sense right there.
32:44
The last couple years, when Deyoung wasn't really hitting it
32:47
all or in the minors. And Edmund, OK, he's fine, It's
32:51
short, but you don't love it. I just feel like that's why
32:53
Mason Wynn is so is so key. If Mason Wynn is, if he's your
32:57
shortstop for the next seven years, boom.
32:59
I mean, that is so big to have a guy like that who can be an
33:02
offensive plus potentially at shortstop as well.
33:05
So, OK, how about how about Ali and Ali's future?
33:11
I like the fact, 'cause I think sometimes the Cardinals give
33:14
deals and extensions either too quickly or they give them in a
33:19
player sense. They give them at the end when
33:21
they don't deserve it. You know, it's the legacy
33:23
Cardinal, the Matt Carpenter extension.
33:26
I'm not. I'm not going to say they're
33:27
doing that with Goldie, because Goldie's still very productive.
33:29
But look, you're going to give Goldie that last extension where
33:32
other teams that are just straight up business money might
33:36
not do it. OK, Goldie's probably going to
33:38
be fine, but that could look bad if he really ages.
33:41
But my question is more so Ollie.
33:44
I think it makes sense. Ollie, right now in my opinion,
33:48
does not deserve a contract extension, although I understand
33:52
why he doesn't necessarily deserve to be fired now.
33:54
I think he could have been fired last year.
33:56
I'm not saying he 100% should have been, but I think it makes
33:59
sense that this is his. Prove it.
34:01
After a good 2022 and awful 2023, Ollie.
34:06
Prove it and you'll get your extension.
34:08
And I think that's fair. What do you think?
34:10
And I agree with you. My argument against firing him
34:12
was always Are you going to trust the guy that that made the
34:16
manager change in the 1st place to hire the right guy next?
34:19
Like at what point does it fall on Mosalak in the front office
34:22
in the the process they were going through to arrive at at
34:25
this manager in the 1st place? If the viewpoint was well, he's
34:28
the problem. Well, who hired him?
34:31
I don't think Ollie was the problem last year.
34:33
I know Cardinals fans hate hearing that.
34:35
I think if I wanted to I could spend 3 hours diving into all
34:39
the reasons. But that podcast would get very
34:41
bad reviews because people would just say oh you're caping for
34:44
the Cardinals you're making excuses.
34:46
I I think a lot of it was reality.
34:47
But I I think you can't possibly extend Ollie before this season
34:51
right. That's why they didn't because
34:53
the optics of that would be would be pitiful and it is kind
34:57
of that that mode of yeah like build a wit doesn't want to ever
35:01
fire MO. But if this year goes bad, does
35:04
MO step into the Joe Mcewing role the next year and somebody
35:08
else takes the reins right. Even though he's still under
35:10
contract, it's like he's now an advisor to something and he's
35:13
going to take a step back. Like I could envision that world
35:16
where if if ticket sales start to decline of of a second
35:19
seventy win season could the Cardinals have to do something
35:21
they don't want to do? Yeah.
35:23
And in that world everybody probably kind of gets
35:26
reorganized the the field manager is is part of that and
35:29
nobody really bats an eye because of course at that point
35:32
you just have to recognize where you're at.
35:34
I I think Ollie is a good manager.
35:36
I think he's a sharp manager. People will ask well who's
35:39
better all your Shields. And I'm like I mean I think both
35:41
of them are solid guys. I think both are better than
35:43
Matheny was and and that doesn't really track with a lot of
35:46
people because they'll look at the win loss record and say well
35:49
that's that's impossible. You can just look at Matheny he
35:51
had a lot of success. Like why would you give Ollie
35:53
more credit than him. It's hard to say if you're not
35:55
in the office, but you know it It I I I've seen enough from
35:59
Ollie to believe that he's got a handle on the way these things
36:02
need to go. I think he learned about himself
36:03
last year like there's a stubborn streak to Ollie Marvel
36:06
that. I think if there's adversity
36:08
this year, he'll treat some things differently.
36:10
But he still has to be the manager that he believes he is
36:13
when he goes into these situations.
36:14
And that's unyielding in a lot of things.
36:17
You know the Tyler O'Neill thing at the beginning of the year
36:19
last year was an example. You can say, well, Ollie threw
36:22
him under the bus and that was the problem.
36:24
Maybe. But like by the end of the
36:25
season, I wasn't sitting in a spot where I was looking to
36:28
defend Tyler O'Neill as this martyr of the 2023 Cardinals.
36:32
Like, no, I think Ollie was was seeing something early on in
36:35
that team that he didn't like and he was desperate without
36:38
showing outward desperation to try to put a stop to it and
36:41
ultimately failed last year. But could it just have been the
36:44
roster? Like there's a lot of problems
36:46
with last year's team, I think for for what they believed Ollie
36:49
could be for for a long time to come.
36:51
In Saint Louis, it makes sense to hitch his wagon to this 2024
36:56
season being better, and if it is, then he'll be extended.
36:58
Then you can you can go on. If it's not, there's a name that
37:03
a lot of Cardinals fans are going to want to bring up in
37:05
terms of who could replace him. OK.
37:07
I'll get to that in one second. That was going to be my next
37:09
question. We're we're on the same page
37:10
right here. I will say with with Ollie
37:13
though, and again, I didn't say Ollie should be fired, but if he
37:17
was, I mean it wouldn't have surprised me.
37:20
The only way it would have surprised me last year is
37:21
because the Cardinals don't do that.
37:23
The Cardinals don't do rash things that like the big market
37:26
teams do right, like fire guy that quick.
37:29
But I do think you can make the case that last year.
37:31
First of all, just so everybody knows, I think the reason the
37:35
Cardinals were bad last year was the pitching staff was terrible,
37:38
awful, terrible. Now, did Ollie take some
37:41
pitchers out? Probably too early.
37:42
I think that's part of it. But also, the pitching staff was
37:44
just horrendous. That's more on mosaic lock in
37:46
the front office than Ollie, But I do think the baseball got
37:50
sloppy, and I understand that Jordan Walker's trying a new
37:53
position and all that. But we never saw the crispness
37:56
of the baseball fall off until you go back to the Matheny era
38:01
at the end, which is why he was fired.
38:03
That was why the Cardinal Way and George Kissel was sloppy and
38:06
base running and defense. And Chelsea cleaned that up.
38:10
And last year I felt like the Cardinals, they weren't a crisp
38:13
baseball team Defensively not great.
38:16
Base running, not great. So not just Ollie, but coaching
38:18
staff overall. We used to say, oh, the
38:21
Cardinals had a coaching staff advantage.
38:23
Back in the day, we used to talk about not just Dave Duncan, but
38:25
Jose Oquendo with infielders. You got Willie McGee.
38:30
I don't know. I just, I watched the baseball
38:32
last year. The pitching sucked, don't get
38:33
me wrong. But also the baseball didn't
38:35
remind me of Cardinal baseball. Now maybe that's because they
38:39
were so bad. Wayno's giving up an 8 ERA and
38:43
maybe just the season was always destined to suck.
38:45
I don't know. But I also think the coaching
38:48
staff is responsible for some of those things I mentioned, which
38:50
is the base running the defense, the crispness of the baseball.
38:53
They changed a lot at once. Some of it they chose to do
38:57
other parts of it, they had, it was hoisted upon them and they
39:01
had to make the most of it. And I think that had a
39:03
cumulative effect. You mentioned the coaching
39:05
staff. Like whether you thought Mike
39:07
Maddox was a great pitching coach or not is irrelevant.
39:10
He did win the World Series this year with his new team, but he
39:13
had a lot of, like institutional wisdom and knowledge that I feel
39:16
like the Cardinals missed last year.
39:18
Which isn't to say that like Dusty Blake can't be a good
39:20
coach, but the drop off was inevitable in retrospect, right?
39:26
We painted the picture of, well, he's an analytics guy and that's
39:28
going to be good because it's going to help them move forward.
39:31
But in reality, there are some things that they missed out on
39:33
because of that move. The the hitting coach situation
39:36
happened to them. Jeff Albert also said I want to
39:39
move on. Whether you loved him or you
39:40
hated him, that was part of it. And so they they promote from
39:43
within there as well and say, you know, we're going to Turner,
39:45
Ward's going to get the job done.
39:47
The bench coach thing I think had an impact.
39:50
Joe Mcewing's not the bench coach this coming year.
39:52
What does that tell you about, you know, that the way that that
39:54
situation played out, they had a hand picked guy and then he was
39:57
like, oh, never mind, I don't want to do that because I don't
40:00
need to do that. Like, you know, it was like
40:02
whatever you make of Holiday's decision, that was something
40:04
that they were like, OK, who's been a bench coach in Major
40:07
League Baseball before because spring training is in three
40:09
weeks, You land on Joe Mceuing. And I don't think it.
40:12
It's not to say he's a bad coach, but I don't know if it
40:14
was a great fit for the Cardinals and that's before you
40:17
even get to the the catcher switch that they knew was coming
40:20
for years. So maybe they could have done a
40:22
little bit more. Prior planning and it's so
40:24
interesting that for years you talk about how invaluable Yadir
40:27
Molina is and then when you have to move on from him, you go,
40:30
well, we didn't know it was going to be that big of a
40:32
change. Well, which is it like, was it
40:34
empty words before about the praise for him or was it?
40:38
Yeah, we, you know, we he was important and and we really
40:41
should have been a little bit more on top of that.
40:43
I think it was all of it. I think it was complacency that
40:45
you could change all of these things at once and have it not
40:48
be as big of a problem as it was, which could be a little
40:51
concerning given that this year, don't don't the moves feel a
40:54
little bit cardinalsy. Didn't you want something to
40:57
feel different than the complacency of before?
40:59
I think is definitely a fair question.
41:01
But you're right, the coaching staff weed I think was a factor.
41:04
I think Daniel Descouso, they got their bench coach this year.
41:06
That's step number one to hopefully having the continuity
41:09
they're looking for. I just, I love the term
41:11
cardinalsy because it's so true. It's like, look, I've joked
41:14
about it, but it's true. The guys they signed were 35
41:18
year old kind of boring white dudes who are married and they
41:21
live close by. That's Cardinals Z.
41:23
You can, you can challenge me on that, but you know I'm right on
41:25
that. OK, So Yadier and Molina, you
41:28
bring it up from a catching standpoint, but also now that
41:31
he's with the front office in this position, it seemed like,
41:35
by the way, were you. I think you were there for this.
41:38
I just found it so funny how it happened where that one press
41:41
conference was at Winter Meetings and John Wazelk was
41:43
like, well, yeah, Yadi has announced, you know, via, I
41:46
think it was a reporter in Puerto Rico.
41:48
Yeah. Yadi has said he's going to be
41:50
with the team. We haven't really discussed the
41:52
exact role, but there will be a role I think talk to.
41:54
Him. Two days later, I think 2 days
41:56
later, they had the press release.
41:58
I just find that hilarious that Yadi still runs the Cardinals.
42:01
He does, He always has, and it's beautiful.
42:03
So part of that is the next question.
42:05
What if things go really poorly? I don't think they will.
42:08
But if things go really poorly and let's say midway through the
42:10
season, Ollie's gone. In this hypothetical, I mean,
42:15
Yadi or Molina, you got Daniel Descalzo.
42:18
Yadi is so beloved. You know when you hire a Yadi to
42:21
be a manager, you're going to have to fire him down the road.
42:24
Everybody gets fired. I just think, look, I root for
42:26
the Cardinals to do well, but I also root for chaos and for
42:29
storylines. And if Yadi were to be the
42:31
manager, Oh my God, Like on a daily basis, it would be just so
42:34
freaking interesting. It would be chaos.
42:38
And if things go wrong in 2024, it almost definitely happens.
42:41
If you ask my opinion like I the role is almost perfect too that
42:45
Yachty's in right now. Like we all know we all could
42:48
sense the the way it drug out of like we know he's coming to the
42:52
Cardinals again. What's the role going to be?
42:54
The way that it ends up is like Man Advisor and he can be here
42:57
when he wants to be here. Like that's a perfect Yachty
43:00
role and that's the role that I would expect.
43:02
A player of his stature, a guy who's going to be in the Hall of
43:04
Fame in in my opinion should be in the Hall of Fame.
43:07
Like it's similar to the holiday thing where Holiday was a star.
43:11
If you want to get back into baseball, wouldn't you just want
43:14
to be the guy? Otherwise, like, meh, I'll I'll
43:17
wait until somebody's ready to make me the guy.
43:19
I don't want to be the bench coach for a year.
43:21
Like I don't want to be the the grunt man for a year.
43:24
Now if you're a Daniel Descalso no disrespect to his career, but
43:27
he wasn't a a superstar. He wasn't that kind of name.
43:30
If you're a John Jay working your way up like you you you
43:34
know that that's the path. If you want to continue to
43:36
advance whereas A yachty can go. I'll wait over here as an
43:40
advisor. I'll come to spring training.
43:42
I'll see my buddies. I'll help.
43:44
Like there will be, there will be value that Yachty brings to
43:46
the table. But the freedom of schedule that
43:48
he's going to have is perfect because he's already going to be
43:51
domineering kind of lording over Ollie Marmel this year
43:55
regardless. He doesn't need to physically be
43:57
there every day to do that. But like, if you're Ollie, he he
44:01
knows what the stakes are. He knows the Cardinals need to
44:03
win this year. MO knows that.
44:04
Like everybody knows, even if we really don't believe that, that
44:08
MO could get relieved of his duties by Bill DeWitt.
44:11
Like there should be that pressure internally for
44:13
everybody to say, hey, this has to be a year where it's
44:15
different. But if you're Yachty, man, he's
44:17
in the perfect role to if things don't go well.
44:20
Well, it wasn't Yachty's fault. He wasn't really here the whole
44:21
time. And yeah, he would be a great
44:23
managerial candidate and he wants to be 1, so he slides
44:27
right in. Like I'm not predicting that
44:28
happens. But what's interesting is not if
44:31
they they lose 90 games then it happens.
44:34
In my opinion. What's interesting is if they
44:36
win 83 games and don't make the playoffs, then what happens,
44:39
right? Because last year it was it was
44:41
the roster to me. It was the way the team was
44:43
built. It didn't make enough sense to
44:46
get him there. The manager wasn't the guy that
44:49
you can pin that on. But this year, if they're like,
44:51
hey, we did the things that we meant to do, who do you blame at
44:54
that point for an 83 win season? That's where it could get
44:56
uncomfortable. That's a great point.
44:59
I hadn't thought of that. So let's say that happens.
45:02
So if they're if they end up at 83, that that means they're
45:06
going to be in the playoff hunt for for really the whole season
45:10
down to the last week or two. Which means Ollie doesn't get
45:14
fired during the season. But at that .83 wins, no
45:20
playoffs, I think you have to fire Ollie.
45:23
The Cardinals might be the only renew.
45:25
Him. Right.
45:25
You. He's well, it's good for you.
45:27
I'm sorry. Yes.
45:28
Yeah, well, yeah. Potato.
45:30
Potato. You're you're.
45:31
Gonna relieve Cardinals, right? Because it's an optics thing of,
45:34
well, they don't do rash things, they don't fire guys.
45:36
But he's, you know, to build the width that matters is kind of my
45:39
thought. Process.
45:40
OK, I think this is a great point, which I hadn't thought
45:44
of, because if you win 83 though, OK to keep him you'd
45:49
have to give him a two year extension, which doesn't really
45:51
matter because you could fire him halfway through next season
45:54
anyway. But that's really interesting.
45:56
If the Cardinals win 83 games and Ollie's here, he doesn't get
46:01
fired during the season. But then yeah, you probably have
46:03
to not renew him and then you move on.
46:05
And then is it Yanni or Descalzo or whoever?
46:08
That's that's super interesting to me.
46:10
I hadn't. I hadn't thought about that.
46:12
I I think that's where you could land.
46:14
Like if we're projecting mid 80s, wouldn't be crazy to think
46:17
they fall a little bit short of that.
46:19
And then it's like, well, how did you get to the mid 80s?
46:22
Because when, if you'd have said before 2023, like, hey, the
46:25
Cardinals are going to win 71 games this year, first of all,
46:28
you'd have to pick yourself up off the floor and then you would
46:31
go, well, surely everybody got fired, right?
46:34
But why is it that with with the way the season actually played
46:37
out, none of us were shocked not to see that level of movement?
46:41
It at least I wasn't. I didn't expect Ollie to get
46:44
fired. There were days during the
46:45
season where I did and I wrote the article just in case, like,
46:49
because it was, it got bleak at a certain point.
46:52
But once it's all kind of behind you and in the rear view, we're
46:54
going, yeah, I didn't. You know, the Cardinals don't do
46:57
stuff like that. They just, they just hired this
46:59
guy to that role a couple years ago, and so they're going to let
47:02
him have some room. It's really interesting to think
47:04
about in that way. But if you're right in the
47:06
middle, where Cardinals fans have, they've said for years,
47:09
oh, the Cardinals are just always stuck in the middle.
47:11
Well, usually they're in the playoffs, which is a little bit
47:14
above the middle. But if they were truly going to
47:16
be that middle team to win 8082 games a year, that would be,
47:21
that would be tricky because the front office would have to make
47:23
some uncomfortable decisions and so would ownership.
47:26
I don't know what it would be, but I would lean toward, like if
47:29
they missed the play offs, I would lean toward there.
47:31
There would be some change, especially if the fan angst got
47:36
to the point that I think it would be if they miss again
47:38
because they wouldn't be able to ignore it anymore.
47:40
Ticket sales were bad toward the end of last year.
47:42
What's going to be interesting this year is the ticket sales
47:44
thing, because a lot of those tickets were sold assuming the
47:47
team would be good. Now, at the end of the year,
47:49
nobody was in the seats, but the tickets were technically still
47:52
sold. When that's not the case this
47:54
year, how does that have an impact?
47:56
I think that is the thing that DeWitt will take notice of if
47:59
they win 80 games. Yeah, and then the Ollie
48:02
discussion. So Mozilla, in my opinion,
48:04
there's no way that Bill DeWitt junior ever fires John Mozelak.
48:08
Whatever happens, you know, I like John Mozelak.
48:11
So I hope two years from now he just goes up into that whatever
48:14
the Kenny Williams role, right, you just whatever that role is
48:18
and somebody else can be the Chief Baseball Officer, decision
48:21
maker, but Bill DeWitt Junior will never fire John Mosalak in
48:25
my opinion. Ollie's an interesting question.
48:29
And so I was going to ask you about this earlier, but then we
48:31
got into kind of the baseball stuff.
48:32
But you, you kind of brought it back to ticket sales.
48:35
This Bally's thing, which last year we kind of wondered about.
48:40
I always wondered like what was the real impact, even if the
48:44
financial impact wasn't felt in that year.
48:48
If you think about running a business now, not even the
48:50
equity portion, you know they own 30%, so their equity stake
48:54
is essentially 0. But also it's more about
48:56
planning for cash flow. So, like the Cardinals, who do
49:00
everything like a hedge fund, well, they're now going to have
49:03
to redo the model. It sounds like.
49:05
I don't know. I don't know what's going to
49:07
happen. But if you can't kind of
49:09
guarantee those monies coming in in the next couple of years or
49:12
you think you might have to invest in new infrastructure if
49:14
you're going to do your own TV thing or it's going to change,
49:18
that's where. Because now the Cardinals are
49:20
admitting it. We had John Mozalak on the
49:22
radio. He said it's real.
49:24
They said that to Derrick Gould. I mean, it wasn't breaking news.
49:26
He said that to everyone. Bill, do it.
49:28
The third has said it's real. I just wonder these last couple
49:32
years how hamstrung or how worried they are more about the
49:36
future of the money's coming in. And so maybe, I mean, look, the
49:40
Sonny Gray deal, I always say this judge not by the the words,
49:44
by the actions. There's a reason that that man's
49:47
making what, 30 million, whatever it is, in his third
49:49
year and they deferred all that money.
49:51
Like, there's a lot of uncertainty for 2024 for the
49:54
Cardinals, and I think that's very obvious.
49:56
And now they're admitting it. I think it impacted last year,
49:59
by the way. They just didn't talk about it
50:01
in the same way. Yeah, in in last year's winter
50:04
warm up, I thought one of the most interesting things that
50:06
came from it was when Build a Wit the Third was asked about
50:09
the TV stuff and the I don't remember specifically what he
50:12
said, but the answer that he gave told me, yeah, they've
50:15
thought a lot about this and they're working actively on
50:17
this. And I think over the last 12
50:18
months it's probably the thing internally that they've done the
50:21
most work on. And I bet when the time comes
50:24
they're going to have something to roll out that they're going
50:27
to be able to feel good about. Now, whether fans feel good
50:29
about it, I don't know what it's going to be because it is it an
50:33
over the top subscription model? Whatever.
50:35
Do they have to pay more? Does it allow people to then
50:37
feel comfortable dropping cable because they only have cable to
50:40
watch the Cardinals anyway? Like, it's going to be
50:42
interesting the way that that plays out.
50:43
But I have this weird, quiet confidence at the Cardinals.
50:47
See what's coming and they're going to have a plan for it.
50:49
But it's interesting that Sonny Gray, like you mentioned the
50:51
deferrals as a reason for as a result of this situation.
50:56
But I'm kind of like, well, man, that's kicking the can down the
50:59
road that if the future is bleak, like what do they do with
51:02
that money? Like it's probably impacting
51:05
them now. But if there's not a great
51:06
solution, it could impact them even further down the road.
51:09
And that's why I kind of think they're confident that there
51:12
will be a solution, but it could take a little bit of time to get
51:14
up to it. That's kind of what that's kind
51:16
of what I'm wondering with that. OK.
51:18
So, and what I mean by that, just so you know, when you're
51:21
talking about the delivery of the television, of the games,
51:24
I'm not worried about that. They'll figure that out, whether
51:27
it's valleys or streaming or whatever.
51:30
And I understand fans are concerned about that.
51:32
And hell, I've changed my cable three times for the freaking
51:34
Cardinals alone in the last five years.
51:36
It pisses me off. But that's not what I was
51:39
talking about. I'm talking about the impact on
51:42
on revenue and payroll for the team.
51:44
Oh my God, I got a way to get. Work that makes them money.
51:49
Yeah, no, I get that. I get that and I think they
51:51
will. I think they will.
51:53
But my my thing is more so I think 2024 is an interesting,
51:57
really weird year because it's coming off the first time in
52:00
forever that they sucked. So it's the first time there's
52:03
they're probably worried and already seeing ticket sales for
52:06
Christmas and all that. It's the first time they're
52:08
really worried about that component plus the TV model
52:11
which is imploding in this year. So, you know, I'm I think the
52:16
Cardinals will make money on the TV in a couple years.
52:19
They'll figure it out whoever's broadcasting streaming.
52:22
But I think this particular year is a really, really different
52:26
one for revenue because of the of the ticket sales based on a
52:28
shitty year and the Bally's thing.
52:31
And I think that's probably right.
52:32
And I guess the good news would be the reports that came out
52:35
about Bally's planning to pay out the full sum to all of the
52:39
teams except three. And the Cardinals were one of
52:41
the teams that should be good to go.
52:42
So like, I think for this year it should be OK.
52:44
But yeah, I mean it's going to get, it's going to get really
52:47
interesting if you begin a trend of we're this team now that
52:51
doesn't make the playoffs. And that was probably the one
52:54
moment last year where in all his office it was like you kind
52:58
of felt the tension of the question being asked of like
53:01
what's at stake for the coming year.
53:03
I think Derek was the guy that asked it and it was like, well,
53:05
what do you mean, what's at stake?
53:07
And it kind of went back and forth and it like, I think
53:10
internally it's just known that there's a lot at stake.
53:13
But that's a hard thing to say out loud.
53:15
That's like you the Cardinals are at risk of becoming that
53:18
organization where you can't lean on the history anymore
53:21
because it's been a while since you've even been that team that
53:25
makes the playoffs every year. Like the the reputation of the
53:28
Cardinals is kind of on the line here because one year everybody
53:31
like nationally. It was interesting to hear about
53:33
the way people talked about last year for the Cardinals.
53:35
Like, yeah, you don't see that from the Cardinals.
53:37
That's crazy. This came out of nowhere and
53:38
people in Saint Louis were like, well, kind of, but also not like
53:41
a lot of people saw the the writings on the wall that could
53:44
make this happen. And so that's the thing that the
53:46
the standard had been declining. What happens if it declines for
53:50
another year? The Cardinals don't want to, you
53:53
know, they don't want to reckon with that, that maybe that's
53:55
just who we are right now. So that's why it's a really
53:57
uncomfortable question to ask Cardinals brass.
53:59
But if they don't have the season they're hoping to have,
54:03
there's just nothing to hide behind anymore.
54:04
It's just kind of where you are and you won't be able to kind of
54:08
manipulate the words or say, you know, well, we we drew this way
54:12
in attendance or we did all these things like eventually you
54:14
just are what you are and that's what could happen this year to
54:17
the Cardinals. There will be nothing to hide
54:18
behind if this is another rough year.
54:22
All right, man, this was fun. I think we're good.
54:24
We're past, we're past 50 minutes for the first one.
54:26
I think it flowed well. I think it was good.
54:29
Everybody. You know, you're watching this
54:31
on on my YouTube. Charlie Marlow, 590 The Fan
54:34
KFNS. I'm going to put it to start on
54:37
the Kenny Wallace Media Podcast. So you can search that on all
54:42
the podcast platforms, of course.
54:44
Watch Brendan's YouTube and tell everybody everything you got
54:48
going where to find you on all the different mediums.
54:51
Yeah I mean my my YouTube is the the main place to go in terms of
54:54
my my spoken word other than well I do radio show in Columbia
54:58
ktgr.com but for Cardinals specific stuff youtube.com slash
55:02
at B Schaefer 12, same as my Twitter handle Brendan Schaefer
55:06
Saint Louis Cardinals writer. I do daily podcasts and a lot of
55:10
it's solo, kind of like you guys are used to seeing from Charlie
55:13
and, you know, planning to do a whole lot more this year.
55:17
There's the B Shaped Daily is on Spotify and Apple podcast too.
55:20
But just like Charlie, I'm trying to build up YouTube.
55:23
And so we said, hey, let's get together and and do that.
55:25
And of course, all the things I write throughout the season
55:27
about the Cardinals will be KMOV, which is now
55:29
firstalertfor.com. Charlie doesn't have to worry
55:32
about the TV wars anymore, but that's the the rebrand for KMOV.
55:36
Yeah, I love it. And we gotta we gotta think of a
55:40
name. So anybody watching, if you have
55:43
a catchy name for the podcast, we don't even have to have a
55:45
name. But if you have a good idea,
55:47
also share the show, share the channels myself, Brendan, share
55:53
the via, you know, subscription if you have a group text or put
55:57
on social media, we appreciate that.
55:58
Comment, like, subscribe and all that.
56:00
Brendan, this is fun because I do get tired of talking to
56:03
myself. So this is fun.
56:05
Yeah, playing old tennis, playing.
56:06
The same thing it's you're honestly responsible for me
56:08
doing it over the past year because last year, for whatever
56:11
reason, the Cardinals let you in the press box for the the
56:13
Opening Day game and that's it and that's it.
56:17
But I was sitting next to you and you're like, you have this
56:19
YouTube thing and I'm like, OK, fine, I'll start it.
56:21
And it's been kind of crazy over, you know, 9-10 months the
56:25
way it's been able to build up. So I see what you're doing.
56:27
You inspired me to do it, and now we're I'm excited to do a
56:31
weekly Cardinals chat with you and in the comments as well.
56:35
Drop future topics you guys want us to talk about, because there
56:38
should be plenty. But if there's stuff we didn't
56:40
cover, we did a pretty comprehensive view of the
56:42
offseason. But if there's stuff we didn't
56:43
cover, drop it in the comments and we'll try to get to it next
56:46
time. For sure.
56:47
And we'll do at least once a week.
56:49
Hey, if people are loving this, we can expand it.
56:51
All options are on the table, so I like it.
56:54
All right, Brennan. Thanks, man.
56:56
Good stuff. Once again, thanks for watching
56:58
you guys comment, like, subscribe, share the show and
57:01
we'll get back with you next week.
57:03
And have a good one, Brendan. Thanks man.
57:06
See ya. See.
57:07
Ya.