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Covid, Pregnancy and Post Partum Mental Health · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and smoking to Stephen. Never
0:07
Speaker 1: told you protection I heard it here.
0:18
Speaker 2: And it is May seven, twenty twenty five. I feel
0:21
Speaker 2: like we need to put a timestamp here as well
0:24
Speaker 2: as content warning. We are going to talk about pregnancy
0:27
Speaker 2: and postpartum depression. I don't think we go into too
0:32
Speaker 2: much depth of like what causes Like we will talk
0:35
Speaker 2: about like clinically what causes it and research based, but
0:38
Speaker 2: we're not going to talk about like specific stories. But yeah,
0:41
Speaker 2: you know, this might be really heavy topic, especially if
0:43
Speaker 2: you're suffering through PPD or has just had a rough
0:47
Speaker 2: time with pregnancy or any of those things. Content warning
0:52
Speaker 2: because yes, Mother's Day is actually right around the corner,
0:55
Speaker 2: and we thought we wanted we would do something like
0:57
Speaker 2: topicala so for a very real episode about motherhood. Of
1:04
Speaker 2: course we are not mothers, but one thing we know,
1:08
Speaker 2: being a mom or a parent is work. Like I'm
1:13
Speaker 2: sure rewarding work, and I've heard that from many of people,
1:16
Speaker 2: is rewarding work, but work nonetheless, And we wanted to
1:22
Speaker 2: say first, we see y'all and we know you are
1:24
Speaker 2: doing amazing, even if you don't always feel like it.
1:27
Speaker 2: Or for those who have had really hard experiences or
1:29
Speaker 2: through a lot of disappointments or lost any of that.
1:32
Speaker 2: We see you, acknowledge you, we love you. Happy Mother's Day.
1:37
Speaker 2: And with that, it wouldn't be a true Minty episode
1:40
Speaker 2: if we didn't have a bit of a too realistic
1:42
Speaker 2: take on it. And I once again blame social media
1:47
Speaker 2: for this. As I was minding my own dink business
1:52
Speaker 2: and doom scrolling when a post popped up of a
1:56
Speaker 2: new mom who was very honest and real with her
1:58
Speaker 2: experience with post part depression and how it affected her
2:02
Speaker 2: and her marriage. And I think it's just not just
2:05
Speaker 2: postpartum depression, but just in general postpartum all the things.
2:09
Speaker 2: Below it were so many comments talking about their similar
2:12
Speaker 2: experiences and how it affected them as well, and many
2:16
Speaker 2: of them just thanking her so in her post, Serena
2:19
Speaker 2: Kassar Kaser, I'm so sorry if I've just said this wrong,
2:23
Speaker 2: says postpartum was being hard. Motherhood changed me in the
2:27
Speaker 2: best ways, but also the worst when it comes to
2:29
Speaker 2: being a partner. I stopped being the woman he fell
2:32
Speaker 2: in love with. And below we wanted to read off
2:35
Speaker 2: some of the comments. One of them said, I don't
2:36
Speaker 2: even remember the person I was before I had my children.
2:40
Speaker 2: Another said this is exactly what I went through. I
2:42
Speaker 2: also felt hate towards him because it seemed like his
2:45
Speaker 2: life continued and mine stopped. Some others said postpartum mentally
2:49
Speaker 2: and emotionally changed me as a person. I was always
2:52
Speaker 2: angry and sad for no reason. Thankfully, my husband understands
2:56
Speaker 2: and has been the reason I haven't fallen off the ledge.
2:58
Speaker 2: It's hard, I said, is so hard? Then the added
3:01
Speaker 2: financial strain is just so much some days. And then
3:05
Speaker 2: another one said, postpartum changed me. I hardly recognize the
3:08
Speaker 2: woman I see in the mirror. I feel overtouched by
3:11
Speaker 2: my babies that I don't even want him to be
3:13
Speaker 2: close to me, but I miss him. So they're all
3:15
Speaker 2: over like fifteen hundred comments Anny, fifteen hundred, all stretching
3:21
Speaker 2: from completely understanding and then also not feeling alone knowing
3:26
Speaker 2: that they're not the only ones going through this, from
3:28
Speaker 2: people giving advice on how to navigate this type of
3:32
Speaker 2: space and time, and several others who have stated this
3:35
Speaker 2: being part of the reason that they chose not to
3:37
Speaker 2: have children. I feel like that might have been an
3:39
Speaker 2: inappropriate for that post, maybe, But as the people who
3:46
Speaker 2: don't have children, who chose not to have children. Yeah,
3:50
Speaker 2: that part for me was really real. I was like,
3:52
Speaker 2: oh damn. And I say this also as a nanny,
3:55
Speaker 2: like I technically raise kids. They weren't my kids, so
3:58
Speaker 2: I had a separation. I love them dearly, but they
4:00
Speaker 2: still weren't my kids. They weren't calling me mom. I was.
4:03
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't birth them, and I didn't have
4:05
Speaker 2: the hormonal changes that happened when you birth children.
4:11
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well yes. And I would just like to say
4:15
Speaker 1: some people have written into us about this. This is
4:18
Speaker 1: kind of encapsulating the plot of the movie Night. Hmm.
4:22
Speaker 1: It's like a lot of these comments are very specific
4:27
Speaker 1: two things that come up in that movie. So clearly
4:32
Speaker 1: something is going on.
4:33
Speaker 2: Right now, and there's so many takes we could go
4:36
Speaker 2: with this this specific post. We could talk about the
4:39
Speaker 2: absent dads who are like, what's wrong with you? You know,
4:42
Speaker 2: why can't you why don't you want to be close
4:43
Speaker 2: to me, Let's have sex. You just had a baby.
4:45
Speaker 2: It's not a big deal those guys, to the guys
4:48
Speaker 2: who really have stepped up and especially and again this
4:51
Speaker 2: is very heteronormative. She was talking in perspective of her
4:54
Speaker 2: own relationship with her husband. But they, like, you know,
4:59
Speaker 2: those who have stepped up and understand are trying to
5:01
Speaker 2: give them space. I've seen more posts recently of men
5:04
Speaker 2: talking about how they love their wives and they understand
5:07
Speaker 2: what they're going through and they're going to do their
5:09
Speaker 2: damndest to make sure they know that their wives understand
5:13
Speaker 2: that they are there for them. Like, so like you
5:15
Speaker 2: have like these both of these scenarios. You had several
5:17
Speaker 2: people going there talking about yep, and that's why we
5:19
Speaker 2: got divorced, And I was like, well, you know, okay,
5:22
Speaker 2: reality took and yeah, so we could talk about that,
5:25
Speaker 2: the relationship part. We could also talk about the parts,
5:28
Speaker 2: you know, we kind of did with the whole weaponize
5:31
Speaker 2: and competence that could play into being part of this.
5:34
Speaker 2: I just saw someone talking about the study in which
5:37
Speaker 2: it says women should actually have like are recommended to
5:41
Speaker 2: have ten hours of sleep because of the way their
5:43
Speaker 2: body processes, and that a lot of like people who
5:47
Speaker 2: have just had pet babies. I think one pediatrician had
5:51
Speaker 2: told the couple that the dad specifically be like, you
5:55
Speaker 2: need to be the ones unless she has to feed.
5:57
Speaker 2: You need to wake up because you can function, she cannot.
5:59
Speaker 2: Like it was like I was like, oh I like that, Dike. Okay,
6:03
Speaker 2: if this was happening, maybe more babies would be born. Yeah,
6:06
Speaker 2: you know, just saying but again, the world sucks. So
6:11
Speaker 2: there's all the we could take that issue, but we're not.
6:13
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of avenues we could have gone
6:15
Speaker 2: down this, but we did want to specifically talk about
6:17
Speaker 2: postpartum depression and the related mental health needs specifically here,
6:22
Speaker 2: especially with the pandemic with COVID and how that really
6:28
Speaker 2: really brought to light some of the knees and how
6:31
Speaker 2: that exacerbated this situation specifically. So partum depression and related
6:36
Speaker 2: mental health needs has always been a thing, like I said,
6:40
Speaker 2: not surprising. Again, for the most part, it's been largely
6:43
Speaker 2: ignored or pushed aside, even given a cutesy name, you know,
6:48
Speaker 2: passive name like the baby Blues, which I find really irritating,
6:53
Speaker 2: and I have a feeling like some people probably appreciate
6:55
Speaker 2: it because they don't want to make it a big thing,
6:58
Speaker 2: but a lot of other people are like, what the
7:00
Speaker 2: hell that's really insulting anyway. Of course, for the most part,
7:06
Speaker 2: the more common temporary filling sadness due to hormonal changes
7:10
Speaker 2: after birth is what they're referencing, especially in the professional world.
7:14
Speaker 2: They're not trying to be condescending, although it still feels
7:16
Speaker 2: like it's condescending, and they're talking about like the temporary stage,
7:20
Speaker 2: which usually phades away within three weeks, but that term
7:24
Speaker 2: has been interchange with people suffering from postpartum depression, which
7:27
Speaker 2: can last for years, and even psychosis, which is the
7:31
Speaker 2: whole other conversation that we're not getting into specifically in
7:35
Speaker 2: this episode. There's a lot we could talk about, obviously,
7:39
Speaker 2: but as more and more families and people actually talk
7:41
Speaker 2: about it as a need within the mental health field,
7:44
Speaker 2: more people are recognizing the severity of it, and a
7:47
Speaker 2: bit of information about what we're talking about from frontiersand
7:51
Speaker 2: dot org. They say, after giving birth, women undergo significant
7:55
Speaker 2: hormonal changes that can heavily impact their mental health. These
7:59
Speaker 2: changes may worsen existing psychological conditions or lead to specific
8:03
Speaker 2: disorders such as postpartum depression PPD. This period is recognized
8:07
Speaker 2: at a time of profound depression starting during pregnancy. So
8:12
Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, Columbia University actually did do a study
8:16
Speaker 2: about some preventative measures and more and more studies have
8:19
Speaker 2: been published about why preventative measures as well as possible
8:23
Speaker 2: treatments are needed. But in a country that doesn't value
8:26
Speaker 2: people who get pregnant again as real people or want
8:30
Speaker 2: to help them, or care about them, or want to
8:32
Speaker 2: give them five thousand dollars to have a baby because
8:33
Speaker 2: that'll solve it easy, it's not surprising to see that
8:38
Speaker 2: they actually don't put any of these great research into practice.
8:43
Speaker 2: This is from Time dot com. May tell e y'all
8:46
Speaker 2: and a bridget Fryheart, and I really am sorry if
8:49
Speaker 2: I bridges y'all name. I don't know if anybody connected
8:52
Speaker 2: with them. Lessons y'all want to correct this, because you
8:54
Speaker 2: know that's just a caveat throughout this whole thing. We're
8:57
Speaker 2: talking a lot. We got a lot of information from
8:59
Speaker 2: a lot of different So then there are two psychiatrists
9:02
Speaker 2: and researchers who wrote this and they said, research like
9:05
Speaker 2: this suggests that there's much more we can do to
9:07
Speaker 2: prepare new mothers from the transition to parenthood, but we're not.
9:12
Speaker 2: In the US, there's a striking gap in the time
9:14
Speaker 2: and resources allocated towards pregnancy versus the postpartum period. While
9:19
Speaker 2: a woman might visit her OBGI in ten to fifteen
9:22
Speaker 2: times during pregnancy, she typically only visits once during the
9:25
Speaker 2: postpartum period, and while it's commonplace for an expectant mother
9:29
Speaker 2: to take birth education class, it is virtually unheard of
9:34
Speaker 2: for her to receive postpartum education.
9:37
Speaker 1: And even though al and Freihart semore normalized contexts for
9:40
Speaker 1: postpartum it isn't helping in the actual treatment or preventative measures.
9:45
Speaker 1: They continue in their article quote for early intervention. Few
9:48
Speaker 1: examples are more relevant than postpartum thyroiditis, which occurs when
9:52
Speaker 1: the immune system mistakenly attacks the thyroid gland, causing it
9:56
Speaker 1: to be inflamed. This condition, developed by five percent of
9:59
Speaker 1: w women, can be effectively treated with medication if recognized early. However,
10:05
Speaker 1: it often goes undiagnosed because patients assume that the symptoms
10:09
Speaker 1: unwanted weight loss or gain, fatigue, and anxiety are all
10:12
Speaker 1: part of the normal postpartum struggle, rather than a treatable issue.
10:17
Speaker 1: This assumption often gets reinforced by medical doctors, who may
10:21
Speaker 1: tell new moms that their symptoms are just part of
10:24
Speaker 1: what happens. The result of delaying treatment is not inconsequential
10:29
Speaker 1: for approximately twenty percent of diagnosed patients, the condition is permanent.
10:34
Speaker 1: In a cultural and medical landscape that views postpartum hardship
10:38
Speaker 1: as normal as an inescapable predetermined outcome, doing more to
10:42
Speaker 1: prepare for postpartum seems like a moot point. It's no
10:46
Speaker 1: surprise that eighty eight percent of women feel unprepared to
10:48
Speaker 1: navigate this period. With more than a third of new
10:51
Speaker 1: mothers developing a lasting health issue after giving birth and
10:55
Speaker 1: over forty percent of new mothers developing a pelvic floor disorder,
10:59
Speaker 1: these numbers are not an inevitability. They're an institutional failure.
11:05
Speaker 2: There's so much I have a feeling I'm going to
11:07
Speaker 2: just pause in between all of those because it's just
11:11
Speaker 2: it's just exhausting and infuriating that this is. Yes, these
11:15
Speaker 2: are things that we should be looking at. And the
11:17
Speaker 2: fact that when we're going to talk about later some
11:19
Speaker 2: of like actual treatment like medication and such, which not
11:22
Speaker 2: everything can be has to be medicated, I'm not saying that,
11:24
Speaker 2: but like research enough didn't come until twenty nineteen nineteen anyway.
11:33
Speaker 2: So yeah, and this failure has actually cost lives. Oh,
11:37
Speaker 2: we love such a pro birthplace, don't wait. So here's
11:41
Speaker 2: a bit from a recent Guardian article titled Becoming a
11:44
Speaker 2: mother was Impossibly hard during COVID and has anything changed?
11:48
Speaker 2: And this is by Maggie Doherty. She writes, the CDC
11:51
Speaker 2: recently reported that eighty percent of US pregnancy related deaths
11:55
Speaker 2: are preventable, with one in four maternal deaths stemming from
11:59
Speaker 2: mental health, including suicide or substance abuse overdosed. Historically, postpartum
12:05
Speaker 2: depression has been undertreated, despite a decade long pushed by
12:08
Speaker 2: doctors and public health officials to create screening and adequate
12:13
Speaker 2: treatment measures. To say it is a failure feels like
12:18
Speaker 2: an understatement, like it's tragedy. And that feels like condescending,
12:23
Speaker 2: Like there's so many things. It feels criminal. It feels criminal,
12:26
Speaker 2: especially what we know with the fact and I haven't
12:28
Speaker 2: talked about this yet, but you've talked a little bit
12:29
Speaker 2: about this yet, that things like the banning of DEI,
12:33
Speaker 2: any of that from the CDC and research facilities includes
12:37
Speaker 2: research like this. And because it says women, yeah, because
12:43
Speaker 2: for them, like and we know that it's not just
12:45
Speaker 2: women getting pregnant where we typically say pregnant people, but
12:49
Speaker 2: because it was geared towards with the word women in
12:52
Speaker 2: there or female or any of that. That was enough.
12:55
Speaker 2: That was enough to say it's too woke, so woke.
13:00
Speaker 2: Oh no, people giving birth so woke? Yet they want
13:06
Speaker 2: us to give birth, Yes.
13:09
Speaker 1: But only in the way they.
13:10
Speaker 2: Want, right and after that, screw you if you die,
13:14
Speaker 2: too bad for you. And with this, Fela, this is
13:28
Speaker 2: still like becoming more normal. It's a conversation about PbD,
13:31
Speaker 2: and Kristen and Caroline actually touched onto the subject and
13:34
Speaker 2: other mental needs for the pregnant person on their episode
13:37
Speaker 2: Maternal Mental Health, So you know there's a preview of that.
13:42
Speaker 2: But this was all that was twenty sixteen, So even
13:46
Speaker 2: though it wasn't that long ago, it was a long ago. Yeah. Yeah,
13:50
Speaker 2: I will say most of the conversation or research that
13:53
Speaker 2: we have been looking at started it in twenty twenty.
13:55
Speaker 2: So all of that just as a note. But it
13:59
Speaker 2: is still not being given the correct attention, and things
14:02
Speaker 2: like the recent pandemic has exacerbated this issue. So we're
14:07
Speaker 2: going to take a minute, or this entire episode look
14:12
Speaker 2: at how PbD has been affected by the pandemic and
14:14
Speaker 2: the handling of pregnancy in general by the US at
14:18
Speaker 2: this time. So let's take a look at what has
14:21
Speaker 2: changed during and after the pandemic for pregnant people in general.
14:25
Speaker 2: The overall impact of the healthcare system when we talked
14:27
Speaker 2: about this so much at the time, was severe, and
14:31
Speaker 2: care for the pregnant patients hit hard, really hard. Here's
14:35
Speaker 2: something from the research analysis by Lisette Sala, Sharon Canleiny,
14:40
Speaker 2: Cheryl Matheson, Seanna Combs, and Beth Dickerson titled this is
14:44
Speaker 2: Not what I had imagined motherhood would look like Pregnancy,
14:47
Speaker 2: postpartum and parenting during COVID nineteen, a qualitative analysis of
14:51
Speaker 2: the first year since birth so quote. The pandemic had
14:54
Speaker 2: a devastating impact on the maternal healthcare system across the nation,
14:58
Speaker 2: with three out of five patients experiencing modified or canceled appointments. Additionally,
15:02
Speaker 2: patients experienced wide variation in hospital visitor policy, alterations in
15:07
Speaker 2: their birth plan, unnecessary ob stetric interventions, inadequate postpartum and
15:11
Speaker 2: breastfaiting support, and early discharged from the hospital. Women were
15:15
Speaker 2: ushered out of the hospital quickly to avoid potential exposure,
15:18
Speaker 2: increasing their likelihood of experiencing a negative postpartum outcome.
15:23
Speaker 1: On top of the difficulties at the hospitals and offices.
15:25
Speaker 1: Having limited support from their community also was a big issue.
15:29
Speaker 1: More from that research quote COVID nineteen, directed quarantines and
15:33
Speaker 1: social isolation caused women to forego those people they rely
15:37
Speaker 1: on for help and instead navigate postpartum alone. Support offered
15:41
Speaker 1: by family and friends, both physically and emotionally, termed instrumental support,
15:46
Speaker 1: is important to mothers as they recover and access a
15:48
Speaker 1: buffer for anxiety and depression.
15:51
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's an age old saying, you know,
15:54
Speaker 2: it takes a village and that stars before birth, and
15:59
Speaker 2: I could not imagine and not having that kind of support.
16:02
Speaker 2: Of course, we've also heard the nightmares of like, do
16:03
Speaker 2: you have too much support? We don't need all that either.
16:06
Speaker 1: The unwanted support, okay.
16:09
Speaker 2: And that is something that also we're not going to
16:11
Speaker 2: get into. But that was some of the positive. They
16:13
Speaker 2: were like, but at the same time, we had an
16:15
Speaker 2: excuse not to see the people we didn't want to see, right,
16:19
Speaker 2: So you know, it wasn't all bad. Again, as the introvert, like,
16:23
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that I was like, Oh,
16:24
Speaker 2: this is gonna be bad for me, but also great
16:26
Speaker 2: for me. I think this kind of sits in that too.
16:29
Speaker 2: And according to another research document from the BMC Pregnancy
16:32
Speaker 2: and Childbirth dot Biomedicentral dot com titled Pregnant and Postpartum
16:37
Speaker 2: Women's Experience of the Indirect impacts of COVID nineteen pandemic
16:41
Speaker 2: and high income Countries a Qualitative Evidence Synthesis, they write,
16:46
Speaker 2: in many countries, pregnant women were encouraged to homestay at home,
16:50
Speaker 2: receive care through telehealth rather than face to face, and
16:53
Speaker 2: reduce face to face education. Isolation from family, friends and
16:56
Speaker 2: peers has negatively impacted women's mental health with increased levels
17:00
Speaker 2: of anxiety, depression, and stress globally. And again, I feel
17:04
Speaker 2: like that's an obvious when we talked about the pandemic
17:07
Speaker 2: that we've all seen that we've all talked about that,
17:09
Speaker 2: but having that on top of pregnancy hormones, on top
17:13
Speaker 2: of god knows like financials, instabilities, if your family's not
17:18
Speaker 2: doing well, like there's so many things. Because we also
17:21
Speaker 2: know it's a risky time for a lot of pregnant
17:24
Speaker 2: people because they can be murdered by their partners. Ooh,
17:27
Speaker 2: you know, we got so many added pressures. And again
17:30
Speaker 2: with all of that, it isn't surprising to note that
17:32
Speaker 2: the percentage of people with postpartum depression went up. So
17:36
Speaker 2: from Michigan Medicine dot Org, Beta Mostafavi and Laura Bailey
17:39
Speaker 2: wrote in twenty twenty two, one in three new people
17:42
Speaker 2: who had babies in the beginning of the pandemic experience
17:45
Speaker 2: postpartum depression, potentially triple pre pandemic levels, while one in
17:50
Speaker 2: five had major depressive symptoms, according to research led by
17:53
Speaker 2: the University of Michigan School of Nursing and Michigan Medicine SO.
17:57
Speaker 2: A separate study from the same UM team also found
18:00
Speaker 2: that those who gave birth during the first six months
18:02
Speaker 2: of COVID nineteen reported more distress and anxiety.
18:06
Speaker 1: And in their article Doctors and Experts talk about this increase.
18:09
Speaker 1: Quote even before COVID, we were seeing an increasing number
18:13
Speaker 1: of women with mood and anxiety disorders around the time
18:15
Speaker 1: of pregnancy, including postpartum depression, said Vanessa Dalton, MD and
18:20
Speaker 1: pH and Obstetratrician, gynecologists at University of Michigan Health Vaughn
18:24
Speaker 1: Voidlander Women's Hospital and senior author on both studies. Then
18:29
Speaker 1: we there in COVID a time when many of us
18:31
Speaker 1: who were taking care of pregnant women had to prioritize
18:34
Speaker 1: reducing transmission of the virus. She added, we are starting
18:37
Speaker 1: to understand the potential consequences these measures had on moms
18:40
Speaker 1: in terms of isolation and mom's mental health.
18:44
Speaker 2: Right, and that study from Michigan has really been a
18:47
Speaker 2: big point for a lot of other researchers as well
18:51
Speaker 2: as a lot of news articles. The Guardian really focuses
18:54
Speaker 2: on some of the findings that they had because again,
18:57
Speaker 2: like getting this research about a pain about a lockdown
19:01
Speaker 2: was so important, especially when we're talking about postpartum depression,
19:06
Speaker 2: because no one's actually prioritizing postpartum depression, like we're just
19:13
Speaker 2: now trying to survive pregnancy. Yeah, you know so, But
19:17
Speaker 2: this is that conversation. We have to have it there.
19:19
Speaker 2: If we're going to talk about having children, if we're
19:21
Speaker 2: going to talk about birth, birthing babies, we need to
19:24
Speaker 2: talk about maternal health. We have to talk about that
19:27
Speaker 2: as a whole. It should be all in one yep.
19:33
Speaker 2: Should it should be. And here's some more information. According
19:37
Speaker 2: to the previously mentioned Guardian article by Doherty, she writes
19:40
Speaker 2: doctor Clayton Schuman, Associate professor at the University of Michigan
19:43
Speaker 2: School of Nursing and the lead author of two studies
19:46
Speaker 2: on the increased rate of post part of depression PTSD
19:49
Speaker 2: symptoms during the first year of COVID, said that although
19:51
Speaker 2: the US was starting to do better at removing stigma
19:54
Speaker 2: for mental health, quote, we have not really moved the
19:57
Speaker 2: needle much when it comes to perinatal mental health. Part
20:00
Speaker 2: of that has to do with the fact that peri
20:01
Speaker 2: natal illness is predominantly within the realm of women's health.
20:05
Speaker 2: And we know that if we're going to say women's self,
20:07
Speaker 2: that's going to be downgraded as a concern.
20:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't care.
20:13
Speaker 2: It's okay. Are they having a baby? Are they going
20:16
Speaker 2: to birthday? Great? In the story, so, the article continued
20:20
Speaker 2: to say, women's health has long been suffering the consequences
20:23
Speaker 2: of institutionalized medical sexism, which has led to diminished positive
20:27
Speaker 2: medical outcomes for women. The pandemic exacerbated these conditions to
20:31
Speaker 2: a critical level, with triple the level of postpartum depression
20:34
Speaker 2: and anxiety rates. A University of Michigan study found that
20:37
Speaker 2: a fifth of the women experiencing postpartum depression reported thoughts
20:41
Speaker 2: of self harm, suicidal ideation, and self harm were already
20:44
Speaker 2: on the rise in perinatal women before the pandemic.
20:47
Speaker 1: And she continues writing quote at the height of the pandemic,
20:51
Speaker 1: women found that every aspect of their birth experience was altered. This,
20:55
Speaker 1: combined with the stress, isolation, and uncertainty of the pandemic,
20:58
Speaker 1: has led researchers such as Shame to advocate for an
21:01
Speaker 1: immediate and robust change to women's reproductive and mental health care.
21:06
Speaker 2: It's like, why can't we have him as like our
21:11
Speaker 2: health represented secretary of health.
21:15
Speaker 1: Wow, you can't have nice things. I'm not but that's
21:19
Speaker 1: how it is.
21:21
Speaker 2: And here we want to pause to say most of
21:23
Speaker 2: the research just shows that those who were a part
21:25
Speaker 2: of the research were pretty clear and they knew that
21:29
Speaker 2: they were suffering through a mental health crisis doing their pregnancy,
21:33
Speaker 2: and they knew that if they were suffering from postpartum,
21:36
Speaker 2: which I feel like is something that we have gotten
21:39
Speaker 2: better at vocalizing we as women but like people. I'm
21:43
Speaker 2: not pregnant, but I think pregnant people and like those
21:46
Speaker 2: in motherhood, those are in parenthood have gotten better in
21:48
Speaker 2: trying to acknowledge these are the rough parts of my
21:54
Speaker 2: pregnancy or having children as much as we wanted this,
21:56
Speaker 2: we plan for this, or we didn't, but we're happy
21:58
Speaker 2: any of those conversations gotten better and recognizing where they are.
22:02
Speaker 2: Like mental health wise, I feel like we've always talked
22:06
Speaker 2: about that when they measure themselves, they're a little at better. Uh,
22:11
Speaker 2: those who like people who get pregnant and such are
22:14
Speaker 2: better at reading themselves anyway. So I didn't demographics, you know,
22:19
Speaker 2: I think that that's to be noted. And again, like
22:21
Speaker 2: in this research, as they were taking majority of the
22:27
Speaker 2: surveys or any of the questionnaires, they were very upfront
22:31
Speaker 2: in this conversation and back to that this is not
22:34
Speaker 2: what I imagine motherhood would look like. Research paper, they
22:37
Speaker 2: write women who gave birth during the pandemic recognize that
22:40
Speaker 2: the situation led to an amplification of new mother typical emotions. Generally,
22:46
Speaker 2: many postpartum women express feelings of fear, anxiety, exhaustion, and
22:50
Speaker 2: of being overwhelmed. While these emotional states are the expected
22:54
Speaker 2: norm after giving birth, childbirth during a pandemic meant women
22:57
Speaker 2: spent their postpartum time at home, isolated with their newborn. Therefore,
23:03
Speaker 2: there was an amplification of typical emotions that would usually
23:05
Speaker 2: be assimilated through interactions with other postpartum women during mother's
23:09
Speaker 2: day outgroups or social gatherings. Due to the lockdown, women
23:14
Speaker 2: had few ways to normalize their feelings through debriefing during
23:17
Speaker 2: social groupings. Most participants experienced a loss of physical and
23:21
Speaker 2: emotional support from family and friends, leaving them to rely
23:24
Speaker 2: on their spouse or the family living in the same home.
23:27
Speaker 2: They expressed a need for help navigating the common postpartum
23:30
Speaker 2: emotional highs and lows. Furthermore, the education and healthier access
23:35
Speaker 2: interrupted or canceled due to COVID nineteen, women were unable
23:38
Speaker 2: to assess if their individualized experiences and feelings were typical.
23:42
Speaker 2: Amplification of new motherhood typical emotions was illustrated with two
23:46
Speaker 2: sub themes, positive emotional experience and negative emotional experience, which
23:51
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about and yeah, so they had
23:54
Speaker 2: both the positive and the negative for example. Quote. Some
23:58
Speaker 2: of the participants reported that caused them to reevaluate the
24:01
Speaker 2: importance of different aspects of their lives. They were able
24:04
Speaker 2: to find gratitude for the special time they had with
24:06
Speaker 2: their newborn and family quote. It also provided me in
24:09
Speaker 2: my spouse extra time with our baby that wouldn't have
24:12
Speaker 2: had outside of these circumstances. So there's that. Other women
24:16
Speaker 2: quote found strength in themselves despite isolation and identified their
24:20
Speaker 2: capabilities as a new mother. Lacking outside support people or
24:24
Speaker 2: access to resources, women gained a deeper insight into what
24:27
Speaker 2: they were capable of doing for their newborn and family.
24:30
Speaker 1: And they went on noting when reflecting on their childbirth experience,
24:34
Speaker 1: significant others were often allowed to be present for birth
24:38
Speaker 1: and were the sole supportive person present once women were
24:40
Speaker 1: discharged home. Several participants mentioned enjoying the special time spent
24:45
Speaker 1: as a newly formed family. One participant expressed feeling like
24:49
Speaker 1: a stronger couple after childbirth, post hardum and parenting together
24:52
Speaker 1: with only their spouse for comfort and strength.
24:56
Speaker 2: Again, though with all of that, which is fantastic, because
24:59
Speaker 2: we don't want to glaze over that, because we know
25:02
Speaker 2: that that in itself is amazing, but there are still
25:05
Speaker 2: negatives to this as well. Here's more. The majority of
25:09
Speaker 2: women stated they had felt a heightened sense of negative emotions,
25:12
Speaker 2: including fear, anxiety, isolation, and depression when I could Conventional
25:16
Speaker 2: access to healthcare providers due to modified appointments resulted in
25:19
Speaker 2: women feeling a greater fear and anxiety. Regarding COVID nineteen,
25:23
Speaker 2: one of the comments they had was it made us
25:26
Speaker 2: even more isolated than we would have been with a newborn,
25:28
Speaker 2: and anxiety was paralyzing. We still feel the effects. And
25:33
Speaker 2: I remembered any that I was Actually I worked with
25:37
Speaker 2: families first, for like, I volunteered with families first when
25:40
Speaker 2: I was unemployed for like a split second, which actually
25:43
Speaker 2: reach us out to new parents to see how they're doing,
25:46
Speaker 2: like as an untrained individual who just volunteers, and I
25:50
Speaker 2: was like making sure you're okay, are you coming into
25:52
Speaker 2: your appointments? When's your appointment? Like I did that. I
25:55
Speaker 2: believe they slashed and it was free, by the way, free,
25:57
Speaker 2: but they still slashed the funding and so there was
26:00
Speaker 2: less volunteers.
26:03
Speaker 1: Hey, yep, that sounds about right.
26:06
Speaker 2: You would think that was something like they just had volunteers,
26:10
Speaker 2: which probably was a problem they shouldn't have. They probably
26:13
Speaker 2: should have gelselers. Anyway, moving on, do back to those examples.
26:17
Speaker 2: Another woman say that quote COVID has created an environment
26:20
Speaker 2: where fear is front and center. Trying to navigate that well.
26:24
Speaker 2: Being smart but not controlled by fear is tough, and
26:27
Speaker 2: again This all has to do with also the same
26:29
Speaker 2: conversation about lacking support during that time, not being able
26:32
Speaker 2: to just have people come over, being fearful of any
26:35
Speaker 2: of the sicknesses, like, oh, man, I don't know how.
26:38
Speaker 2: I don't think most people have forgotten, but there are
26:40
Speaker 2: still the moments of like, man, that was bad when
26:42
Speaker 2: we were paralyzing, fear wearing masks just to step outside
26:47
Speaker 2: of the house, not going anywhere outside of the house,
26:50
Speaker 2: and spraying everything down.
26:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, I cried.
26:55
Speaker 2: I can't imagine that with a newborn.
26:59
Speaker 1: I can't either, because I feel like when you have
27:00
Speaker 1: a newborn again, neither has our parents. But I've even
27:04
Speaker 1: felt this with newborns I've been around. I'm like, oh,
27:06
Speaker 1: what if they accidentally eat something, or if you do this,
27:09
Speaker 1: or like it's just you're constantly on of Like what
27:13
Speaker 1: if I turn away for one second, Yeah, they do something,
27:16
Speaker 1: and then you have COVID come in and COVID you
27:19
Speaker 1: don't know that.
27:19
Speaker 2: It makes a little more realistic. You don't you didn't know?
27:23
Speaker 2: And what's so like? I also stumbled upon another why
27:26
Speaker 2: am my own parent TikTok? I don't know, but another
27:28
Speaker 2: TikTok in which they were talking about having an experience
27:32
Speaker 2: where it was like an almost death experience for the
27:34
Speaker 2: like what they saw their child that was drowned, or
27:36
Speaker 2: having to like get them through the high leg. But
27:39
Speaker 2: that never leaves them. They have another trauma that they like,
27:42
Speaker 2: they're so triggered now because they experienced the possibly losing
27:47
Speaker 2: their child that they are now hyper focused. And then
27:50
Speaker 2: I also had that experience where I had friends whose
27:53
Speaker 2: family feared that and put so much trauma onto them.
27:58
Speaker 2: They were fearful of that.
27:59
Speaker 1: You had that, right, Yeah, I have a friend whose
28:04
Speaker 1: family is they did have a tragedy in the family. Yeah,
28:09
Speaker 1: And then after that, understandably, they became very very concerned
28:15
Speaker 1: and kind of in my friend's experience, overbearing. And it's
28:21
Speaker 1: just it's one of those really painful things because you
28:24
Speaker 1: get where they're coming from and get where she come from,
28:26
Speaker 1: and it's just like a really painful.
28:28
Speaker 2: Experience, especially now that we're adulthood and like we could
28:32
Speaker 2: have children and we have like family friends who have
28:35
Speaker 2: children or are like we have nieces or nephews. I'm like,
28:37
Speaker 2: we still we were like, oh lord, yeah, that's less real,
28:41
Speaker 2: and I could imagine and then having COVID which actually
28:44
Speaker 2: was killing people without and there was really no understanding
28:47
Speaker 2: at the time at the beginning of this. Oh yeah,
28:52
Speaker 2: I'm panic just thinking about it. Parents. Yes, speed got speed.
29:00
Speaker 2: So yeah. As one woman from that social media post
29:03
Speaker 2: which inspired this episode actually talked about the financial impact
29:08
Speaker 2: that really was a burden for them. From that same
29:11
Speaker 2: research paper, they write COVID nineteen impacted women and their
29:14
Speaker 2: families financially through lost jobs and wages, increased prices on
29:18
Speaker 2: household items, and costly testing and treatment for illness, And
29:21
Speaker 2: they continue participants saw an increase in the need to
29:24
Speaker 2: focus on schooling and childcare in the home. COVID nineteen
29:28
Speaker 2: created competing roles for mothers, including caregiver, teacher of their children,
29:31
Speaker 2: and diligent virtual employee. With a lack of childcare and
29:35
Speaker 2: increased fear of COVID nineteen transmission, some women had to
29:38
Speaker 2: make a choice between parenting and working. Women are often
29:40
Speaker 2: fulfilling many roles, all while recovering from childbirth and bonding
29:45
Speaker 2: with their newborn. Now we had a huge I think
29:47
Speaker 2: we've had several Monday minis about this, specifically about mothers
29:53
Speaker 2: coming back to work and having to navigate the space
29:56
Speaker 2: of being now a teacher, a babysitter, a parent, a wife,
30:01
Speaker 2: like all of those things, and how that actually hurt
30:03
Speaker 2: them even though they were doing it all from home
30:07
Speaker 2: and they're supposed to have a partner, but the partner
30:09
Speaker 2: oftentimes were not helpful.
30:12
Speaker 1: Or not as much as they should have been at rest.
30:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the balance was real, real wonkish, and the
30:19
Speaker 2: amount of time they had to not only spend caretaking,
30:23
Speaker 2: but the amount of planning. And we talked about that
30:25
Speaker 2: as well throughout the day for new parents going through
30:28
Speaker 2: this learning curve without as many supportive networks that happened
30:32
Speaker 2: pre pandemic. So you have all of these things, including
30:35
Speaker 2: the fact that you had to plan in dinners and
30:36
Speaker 2: then plan bedtimes and plan bath times, and plan homework
30:40
Speaker 2: and plan outdoor activities, trying to social life, and then
30:45
Speaker 2: the whole like push to be non iPad parents. And
30:49
Speaker 2: I'm like, take that iPad and watch it. I'm just
30:54
Speaker 2: kidding you do you If you can do that, that's amazing,
30:56
Speaker 2: that's amazing.
30:58
Speaker 1: I feel like at the beginning of the pandemic too,
31:00
Speaker 1: we were all we were much more energetic at our efforts.
31:05
Speaker 1: And so I remember I had some friends, we had kids,
31:07
Speaker 1: and they were doing like the bubble hangouts. Yeah, but
31:12
Speaker 1: it just sounded like so much work. It's different than
31:14
Speaker 1: what you and I did. It was like a whole ordeal,
31:18
Speaker 1: and I was just saying, oh geez, And those bubble
31:21
Speaker 1: hangouts fell off pretty quick. But because you know, you
31:24
Speaker 1: wanted the children, not necessarily babies, but they wanted the
31:27
Speaker 1: kids to have this interaction, and it was just too
31:30
Speaker 1: much on top of everything else.
31:32
Speaker 2: Like in general. And you know, again for those who
31:35
Speaker 2: maybe this was the first child and they hadn't quite
31:38
Speaker 2: had the baby yet, but that pre planning and trying
31:40
Speaker 2: to get everything done in an unknown atmosphere. And again,
31:44
Speaker 2: researchers I've talked about this as well, and they mentioned
31:47
Speaker 2: the lack of education for new parents. So here's a
31:50
Speaker 2: quote from that same research saying participants complained about the
31:53
Speaker 2: lack of education on various subjects related to pregnancy, childbirth,
31:57
Speaker 2: and postpartum that were previously available prior to COVID nineteen,
32:01
Speaker 2: mothers wanted to engage with healthcare providers or more experienced
32:04
Speaker 2: mothers to learn about what to expect. Moving to virtual
32:07
Speaker 2: prenatal visits and cancelations of childbirth education and hospital tours
32:11
Speaker 2: caused many mothers to arrive at the hospital for birth
32:14
Speaker 2: uneducated and fearful at my anxiety. I need to know
32:20
Speaker 2: where to park, so half the time I will drive
32:22
Speaker 2: to that new location. So having a baby and not
32:25
Speaker 2: knowing anything about the facility, I mean, don't get me wrong,
32:29
Speaker 2: I know people have done that when like unexpected birds
32:31
Speaker 2: happen or you know, all these things. But to not
32:34
Speaker 2: even be able to like plan ahead or even have
32:37
Speaker 2: this conversation of what this looks like, because I'm sure
32:39
Speaker 2: the providers didn't know either, especially at the beginning of
32:42
Speaker 2: the pandemic. They didn't know how to navigate this and
32:44
Speaker 2: this whole Like we've become pros at the like video
32:49
Speaker 2: conferencing now, I say, as we still hate the platform
32:54
Speaker 2: we're using today, but but like then that was still new.
33:00
Speaker 2: That was still kind of like you only use that
33:02
Speaker 2: if you were out of the country and had to
33:04
Speaker 2: talk to someone in a different country.
33:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it's just like not a great feeling
33:12
Speaker 1: when you know childbirth is dangerous anyway right in this country.
33:17
Speaker 1: It's not a great feeling when you roll up and
33:19
Speaker 1: you're like, I don't know, well they even have space
33:21
Speaker 1: for me. Because that was a big talk during COVID too,
33:23
Speaker 1: was like could get there, and they might be like nope, night.
33:28
Speaker 2: And only one person. Oftentimes the partner couldn't come with
33:31
Speaker 2: if there was a partner or even like your mother
33:33
Speaker 2: or any supportive person you wanted there, Oh yeah, they continue.
33:37
Speaker 2: There are no ways for mothers, especially first time mothers,
33:40
Speaker 2: to adequately prepare for what they were going to experience. Furthermore,
33:44
Speaker 2: many mothers planned on participating in groups with other mothers
33:47
Speaker 2: offered at their church or neighborhood. However, with all events
33:51
Speaker 2: and groups canceled, mothers instead were left to figure out
33:53
Speaker 2: postpartum and parenting by themselves. If a woman chose to breastfeed,
33:57
Speaker 2: that she did not have the option of lactation, consultation,
34:01
Speaker 2: or another mother to visit and ask for advice. Many
34:04
Speaker 2: participants focused on the severe lack of postpartum education and
34:07
Speaker 2: support as a contributor to their negative feeling.
34:20
Speaker 1: And back to that study from the University of Michigan
34:23
Speaker 1: quote Schumann says he was surprised by the numbers. A
34:26
Speaker 1: third of women screened positive for depression and a fifth
34:29
Speaker 1: for major depression. One in five who screened positive for
34:32
Speaker 1: postpartum depression reported thoughts of harming themselves. He said the
34:37
Speaker 1: findings were especially concerning following a Michigan Medicine led study
34:40
Speaker 1: that found increased prevalence of suicidal thoughts and self harm
34:43
Speaker 1: among childbearing women. Treatment is pivotal to recovery, he said.
34:48
Speaker 1: Resources and education about postpartum depression must be better disseminated
34:52
Speaker 1: and implemented. These resources should be shared with the general
34:55
Speaker 1: public to reduce stigma, and shared with those who provide
34:58
Speaker 1: social and emotional support to postpartum patients, such as partners
35:02
Speaker 1: and family members.
35:04
Speaker 2: Right, so we jumped from obviously talking about the education
35:07
Speaker 2: to this. So a couple of things, like the breastfeeding
35:10
Speaker 2: has been a big point of contention and a lot
35:14
Speaker 2: of these conversations and research, there's a lot of controversy
35:18
Speaker 2: we have. I have no opinion. I have no opinion.
35:21
Speaker 2: I can say that I have not looked up any
35:24
Speaker 2: of that.
35:24
Speaker 1: I know.
35:25
Speaker 2: Either of these things are complicated. This is a complicated
35:27
Speaker 2: subject apparently because people get upset about people breastfraiting in
35:31
Speaker 2: public when I'm like, yeah, they got to feed their children.
35:36
Speaker 2: Calm down anyway. But all of that to say is
35:39
Speaker 2: there's a lot to be said in that lactation consultation
35:42
Speaker 2: I've seen. I've seen some shows Sorry Sally Parents, but
35:47
Speaker 2: they do talk about the seriousness and the feelings connected
35:51
Speaker 2: to breastfaiting, whether it's feeling like you're failure, feeling like
35:53
Speaker 2: it's too much, feeling it like it's painful, Like there's
35:56
Speaker 2: so much to that, and so there is a level
35:58
Speaker 2: of need in education for this. So when they without that,
36:02
Speaker 2: that causes a whole new crisis, especially in trying to
36:05
Speaker 2: feed your child. And then back to the whole fact
36:08
Speaker 2: of that, self harm and suicidal ideation is not talked
36:12
Speaker 2: about in the pregnancy world. I don't think we talk
36:14
Speaker 2: about that enough, obviously, because that's not even a thought
36:18
Speaker 2: that pops into my head when I think about pregnant people.
36:21
Speaker 2: My first I said, you're good, you're healthy, you want this,
36:24
Speaker 2: You're good, all right, great, like all of those conversations,
36:28
Speaker 2: but like outside of so many other people who just
36:31
Speaker 2: have perhaps anxiety and depression, but like that level and
36:35
Speaker 2: depth of fear because of whatever hormonal changes, whatever environmental changes.
36:44
Speaker 2: There's so much to this, and it's not talked about enough,
36:47
Speaker 2: point blank, and then having an isolation we know we
36:50
Speaker 2: know what isolation depression does.
36:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you got all those hormonal changes. And just like,
36:59
Speaker 1: I think we've discussed this so many times, but we'd
37:02
Speaker 1: love to societally paint motherhood is like this beautiful thing.
37:06
Speaker 1: You must be so happy. This is the greatest thing.
37:09
Speaker 1: So I think it makes sense that we haven't looked
37:12
Speaker 1: into suicidal ideation when it comes to pregnant people, or
37:17
Speaker 1: even depression when it accounts to pregnant people.
37:21
Speaker 2: I mean, we have to give it names like baby blues.
37:23
Speaker 1: Right, You're like, it's just a baby blues.
37:25
Speaker 2: I really want to throw things from I hear that
37:27
Speaker 2: for some reason. So here are some of the themes
37:31
Speaker 2: that emerge from that study. Five themes emerged heightened emotional distress,
37:35
Speaker 2: adverse breastfeeding experiences, unanticipated hospital policy changes, shifting birthing plans,
37:41
Speaker 2: expectation versus reality or mourning, the experience of what should
37:45
Speaker 2: have been and expected benefits of the pandemic. They also
37:50
Speaker 2: talk about social distancing and infection control measures contributed to
37:53
Speaker 2: increased guilt, isolation, and depression, and postpartum parents and many
37:57
Speaker 2: were denied pre pandemic coping mechanism and experience. A lack
38:01
Speaker 2: of support, and this is what the US human had relayed,
38:04
Speaker 2: which again like we're about to tap into this because
38:08
Speaker 2: that whole level of guilt that we've talked about this
38:11
Speaker 2: as individuals, when we fill depressed but then feel guilty
38:14
Speaker 2: for filling the press when everybody you know, like that
38:16
Speaker 2: build on. Imagine that. Imagine that as a pregnant person,
38:20
Speaker 2: Like there's so many levels to this as well as
38:23
Speaker 2: pregnant people, pandemic hospital visits, anxiety like birthing, breastfeeding, like planning.
38:31
Speaker 2: If you were Type A or OCD, this is the
38:34
Speaker 2: nightmare I would imagine.
38:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do remember we did a Monday mini
38:42
Speaker 1: early on in the pandemic where we were talking about
38:45
Speaker 1: the kind of baby bump that happens, yes, and it
38:49
Speaker 1: was called COVID babies, and a couple of people wrote
38:51
Speaker 1: in like called in was like, you know, this was
38:54
Speaker 1: actually a really horrible experience for me, and I kind
38:57
Speaker 1: of don't like that it's being termed as like.
39:00
Speaker 2: Oh, it was COVID baby, not baby boomer.
39:04
Speaker 1: No, it's a very stressful thing that happened, and I'm
39:08
Speaker 1: really sad on my plans fell Apart from.
39:11
Speaker 2: You, we don't want to talk about this, but this
39:15
Speaker 2: was not in the plans, right, Or it was in
39:18
Speaker 2: the plans but not the timing. So many things. Yeah,
39:20
Speaker 2: and one of the biggest themes within these factors of
39:24
Speaker 2: many other pregnant people was that they felt like they
39:26
Speaker 2: were doing it wrong and blaming themselves. So here's a
39:30
Speaker 2: quote they say, moms say they felt like no matter
39:33
Speaker 2: what they did, it was wrong. And this is from
39:35
Speaker 2: the human Some women shifted birthing plans, for instance, switching
39:39
Speaker 2: from in hospital to out of hospital births or elective
39:42
Speaker 2: inductions to avoid a trip to the hospital. Restrictive vegetations
39:46
Speaker 2: was described by one mom whose duela was prohibited from
39:49
Speaker 2: attending her birth as heartbreaking and yeah, dulas are important,
39:54
Speaker 2: so if they have that as a part of plan,
39:56
Speaker 2: I'm sure that was devastating. Dalton, who's pre obvious research
40:00
Speaker 2: have explored the relationship between depression, anxiety, and cincariaty deliveries
40:04
Speaker 2: among pregnant women, said when expectations around labor and delivery
40:08
Speaker 2: don't match the day itself, it can lead to intense disappointment.
40:12
Speaker 2: People have very deep feelings and excitement around having a baby,
40:16
Speaker 2: she said. They often have a vision about what that
40:18
Speaker 2: day should look like when things go differently, there may
40:21
Speaker 2: be feelings of loss because the event wasn't what they
40:25
Speaker 2: always dreamed of. Add on the biological reasons women experience
40:28
Speaker 2: depression after pregnancy and all of the disruptions to the
40:31
Speaker 2: labor and delivery experience over the last two years, and
40:33
Speaker 2: you can understand how COVID could exacerbate mental health issues
40:36
Speaker 2: in this population. So there's again all that level, like
40:41
Speaker 2: the planning, the anxiety coming through it, having a birth plan,
40:44
Speaker 2: having that shattered, not having a birth blank because you
40:46
Speaker 2: can't have a birth plan, you can't have the extra
40:48
Speaker 2: support like a doula, which a lot of people have
40:51
Speaker 2: recommended and have said that has been amazing for them
40:53
Speaker 2: because they've become advocates when oftentimes the doctors, not all
40:58
Speaker 2: doctors obviously Schumann would be a good one, when doctors
41:02
Speaker 2: ignore their patients in their own bodies or their their requests.
41:08
Speaker 2: So all of that could be very devastating. Again, not
41:12
Speaker 2: having your mom there, if you've dreamed of having your mom,
41:14
Speaker 2: there could be a heartbreaking moment not being able to
41:16
Speaker 2: have their husband there and hold your hands, which I
41:19
Speaker 2: think they did like lighten up those roles towards the
41:22
Speaker 2: middle or end when the vaccines happened, right, I think so, yeah, yeah,
41:27
Speaker 2: I think that if I remember correctly, so it did
41:29
Speaker 2: change up because it was so harsh and again not
41:32
Speaker 2: having an advocate, especially when it comes to what we'll
41:36
Speaker 2: have to do as SCESAIA and we're gonna have to
41:37
Speaker 2: do emergency surgery. There's all of these complications because yes,
41:41
Speaker 2: giving birth is dangerous, and if you're medicated or if
41:46
Speaker 2: you're under stressed, you might not be able to make
41:48
Speaker 2: a call. Like, there's so many things to this that
41:51
Speaker 2: I could not imagine. Ya, my heart is racing just
41:55
Speaker 2: thinking about it. Again, I'm one of those I'm like, yeah,
41:59
Speaker 2: that's why. That's one of one of the reasons I
42:02
Speaker 2: did not want children. So with all of that, where
42:06
Speaker 2: does that leave us? Yes, society has allowed for more
42:08
Speaker 2: pregnant people to actually talk about the realities of postpartum
42:12
Speaker 2: depression and mental health. And I feel like during again,
42:16
Speaker 2: we got a lot of great research in the last
42:18
Speaker 2: four years five years, But is that the same thing
42:22
Speaker 2: as actually getting treatment or care. Well, back to that
42:27
Speaker 2: Times article we started out with, No, I don't think so.
42:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's a quote. This normalization has been a net
42:36
Speaker 1: game for society. We as a culture needed to destigmatize
42:39
Speaker 1: talking about the postpartum struggle to improve maternal wellbeing. But
42:43
Speaker 1: as two psychologists specializing in women's health, we've recently come
42:46
Speaker 1: to a surprising realization maybe all this normalization has a
42:50
Speaker 1: dark side. In our culture's noble attempt to encourage talking
42:54
Speaker 1: about postpartum pain and illness, we have inadvertently normalized the
42:58
Speaker 1: experience of postparts pain and illness.
43:03
Speaker 2: It's one of those things that I think gradually going
43:05
Speaker 2: into Yeah, that's what women go through.
43:09
Speaker 1: That's just how it is.
43:11
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, you can handle it. They were built for this, right,
43:16
Speaker 2: so they go on to explain. Today we find ourselves
43:19
Speaker 2: in a societal and medical climate that views postpartum health
43:22
Speaker 2: as an inescapable part of early motherhood. But this resignation
43:27
Speaker 2: runs counter to a wealth of research indicating otherwise. Many
43:31
Speaker 2: postpartum health issues such as mood disorders, urinary incontinence, and
43:36
Speaker 2: metabolic dysfunction, can be effectively treated or in some cases,
43:40
Speaker 2: entirely prevented. By overnormalizing the discussion of postpartum struggle, we
43:45
Speaker 2: have limited the much needed broader discussion around early and
43:48
Speaker 2: preventative care yeah. I keep thinking about the amount of
43:52
Speaker 2: people who talk about being ripped and cut and then
43:56
Speaker 2: having the uh what is it the husband stitch, which
44:01
Speaker 2: y'all do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I
44:05
Speaker 2: punch somebody without consent most of the time, by the way.
44:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, it's also just like it's a huge
44:15
Speaker 1: medical procedure. Your body's direcked.
44:19
Speaker 2: Leave me be why why But like the conversation about
44:23
Speaker 2: the incontinence, like the amount of things like is there
44:26
Speaker 2: are they just going like, Eh, that's just normal child birth, sorry,
44:31
Speaker 2: instead of actually helping, like the mound of people who
44:33
Speaker 2: break their butt bone yep. And don't get me wrong,
44:39
Speaker 2: we understand it's stressful all these things, and if you
44:42
Speaker 2: don't want to do all those other medical possibilities, that's fine.
44:46
Speaker 2: But should we actually look to see if we could
44:49
Speaker 2: ease the procedure at all? No? Nah, this is Eve's
44:55
Speaker 2: send to us. That's what she handed down the central crisis.
45:01
Speaker 2: But going on back to the Times article, doctor avar
45:04
Speaker 2: Ram who wrote a book Hormone Intelligence, and she writes
45:07
Speaker 2: common and normal are different. Just because so many women
45:10
Speaker 2: experience something doesn't mean it's inherent to our biology. Being
45:14
Speaker 2: a woman is not a diagnosis. Amen. Women's health issues
45:19
Speaker 2: are often treated as inherent part of being female, rather
45:23
Speaker 2: than conditions warranting serious attention, research and systemic overhaul. Like
45:29
Speaker 2: that's I think that's you know again the bigger conversation
45:33
Speaker 2: when it comes to women's health at all, point blank.
45:37
Speaker 2: And also why it's important that we have actual research
45:43
Speaker 2: with all types inclusion.
45:47
Speaker 3: What a novel idea?
46:00
Speaker 2: Again, the writers for time, they do acknowledge normalizing is good,
46:05
Speaker 2: is a good step in finding a solution or treatment,
46:08
Speaker 2: but this should only be a beginning step, so they
46:11
Speaker 2: continue normalization serves as an important purpose to destigmatize and educate,
46:15
Speaker 2: to extract truth from the shadows and cast it in
46:17
Speaker 2: the light. In the US, the postpartum struggles needed an
46:21
Speaker 2: era of normalization. But we should view this as a
46:24
Speaker 2: stepping stone rather than a destination. Again, I think that
46:28
Speaker 2: makes perfect sense, Like, yes, we need to be able
46:32
Speaker 2: to talk about this, women need to talk about this now.
46:34
Speaker 2: We need to see this as a collective problem, not
46:39
Speaker 2: just a conversation.
46:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a stepping stone. Al and Freihart have
46:46
Speaker 1: some suggestions, they write quote to meaningfully fix the current
46:50
Speaker 1: state of postpartum care. Multiple systems need to be redesigned,
46:53
Speaker 1: from government policies to standard medical protocols. For most of us,
46:57
Speaker 1: though the thought of overhauling these systems can figure impossible
47:00
Speaker 1: and disempowering, but there is something We do have power
47:04
Speaker 1: over our narratives. It is essential that we shift from
47:08
Speaker 1: a narrative that over normalizes the postpartum struggle to one
47:12
Speaker 1: of preventative care, one that refuses to accept it as normal.
47:16
Speaker 1: We need to leave behind the notion of that's just
47:18
Speaker 1: how things are and replace it with it shouldn't have
47:21
Speaker 1: to be this way.
47:23
Speaker 2: And actually they do get some good examples, and I
47:25
Speaker 2: did note earlier because I've seen more tiktoks in which
47:29
Speaker 2: South Korea has one, which I think they write eight
47:32
Speaker 2: out of ten mothers will stay at care centers after
47:35
Speaker 2: giving birth, and they have everything fresh mills, childcare, classes, pilates,
47:40
Speaker 2: massage facials, all those things. They even provide in home
47:43
Speaker 2: cleaning and laundry services. Makes sense. Of course, again they're
47:48
Speaker 2: not doing it right either, necessarily about women in general,
47:52
Speaker 2: because the birth rate is really far down. But that
47:55
Speaker 2: type of postpartum care is amazing. New Zealand they write
48:01
Speaker 2: after giving birth moms can stay at a local birthing
48:04
Speaker 2: center free of charge, where they will receive one on
48:06
Speaker 2: one care for them and their babies. Which these sound amazing.
48:11
Speaker 2: This should be a thing, yeah, instead of funding wars.
48:16
Speaker 2: But anyway, and apparently pediatricians have stepped up to fill
48:20
Speaker 2: that space in helping to treat the parents. So this
48:23
Speaker 2: is from that Guardian article written by Doherty. She writes,
48:27
Speaker 2: if women aren't seeing their healthcare providers about emotional complications
48:30
Speaker 2: during the perinatal period, they do typically take their babies
48:34
Speaker 2: to the pediatricians, and these visits provide a critical opportunity
48:38
Speaker 2: to expand care from the baby to the parents and
48:40
Speaker 2: offer mental health screening to parents regardless of gender. Some
48:44
Speaker 2: pediatricians have therefore become substitutes for family health care on
48:48
Speaker 2: the frontline and detecting postpartum depression. Logan's Children's practice in Callyspill, Montana,
48:54
Speaker 2: sorry began to incorporate postpartum depression and screening during well
48:58
Speaker 2: infant checkups in twenty twenty, and in twenty nineteen, the
49:01
Speaker 2: AAP reported that roughly half of its providers offered maternal
49:06
Speaker 2: depressions screening. Again, COVID HIT change a lot of things
49:11
Speaker 2: and it prompted the AAP to recommend that pediatricians conduct
49:15
Speaker 2: validated screening at each other well infant visits at one, two, four,
49:18
Speaker 2: and six months to help improve diagnosis and referrals for treatment.
49:22
Speaker 2: So they increased it. I love that.
49:25
Speaker 1: And it seems to have been effective. She continues quote.
49:29
Speaker 1: Doctor John Cole, pediatrician at Logan Children's, has noticed many
49:33
Speaker 1: positive results for postpartum depression since it instituted the screening
49:37
Speaker 1: tool four years ago. The reaction from parents has been
49:40
Speaker 1: fairly favorable. He noted, I think the parents feel comfortable
49:44
Speaker 1: talking with us. He said, we just have a lot
49:46
Speaker 1: more touch points with mothers and fathers than they would
49:49
Speaker 1: otherwise have with their ob providers. Since the pandemic, his
49:55
Speaker 1: office has seen an uptick in cases, but what surprised
49:58
Speaker 1: him is the number of women in families who were
50:01
Speaker 1: already seeking treatment and support for it. It's promising that
50:05
Speaker 1: many of these women have already spoken with their midwife
50:07
Speaker 1: or OBI about this and are on treatments. He said.
50:11
Speaker 1: The practice provides additional screening and recommendations for follow up treatment,
50:15
Speaker 1: and he says both men and women, especially new parents,
50:17
Speaker 1: should have a primary doctor to ensure that they are
50:19
Speaker 1: receiving regular healthcare checkups.
50:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's amazing. And I think that's again where
50:24
Speaker 2: we note and have that conversation about the all oftentimes
50:28
Speaker 2: that pregnant people are recognizing they need help, they're just
50:31
Speaker 2: not getting it. They're just not able to find it,
50:33
Speaker 2: they're not able to access it. There's also a bigger
50:37
Speaker 2: conversation about how the marginalized communities are offered even less
50:41
Speaker 2: services and offered even less help. Again, when we talked
50:45
Speaker 2: about the fact that a lot of the parents having
50:47
Speaker 2: a stay at home job, we have many people who
50:50
Speaker 2: we couldn't have stay at home jobs. They were essential workers,
50:53
Speaker 2: which felt very interesting in that conversation in itself. And
50:58
Speaker 2: so we're not even able to stay at home. So
51:00
Speaker 2: there's so many things to that level that we are
51:03
Speaker 2: we have not gotten into and I haven't seen the research.
51:06
Speaker 2: Maybe I need to be more specific with that research,
51:09
Speaker 2: because it is that conversation to about the lack of
51:12
Speaker 2: opportunities for certain groups of people when it comes to
51:16
Speaker 2: access in general, and we've talked about it millions of
51:18
Speaker 2: times and everything, but pregnancy and children are a big,
51:22
Speaker 2: huge red flag when it comes to the divisiveness and
51:25
Speaker 2: who gets what types of treatment in this area. I
51:29
Speaker 2: will say also in twenty twenty three, the FDA did
51:33
Speaker 2: approve the first oral treatment for postpartum depression, and this
51:38
Speaker 2: is from the FDA dot gov. The US Food and
51:40
Speaker 2: Drug Administration approved zarzuv or zorod alone, which is the
51:46
Speaker 2: first oral medication indicated to treat postpartum depression and adults.
51:50
Speaker 2: They talk about some of the risks, but in general
51:52
Speaker 2: they see this as being effective. They go on to
51:56
Speaker 2: say that this treatment in adults was demonstrated in two
52:00
Speaker 2: randomized double debt blah blah blah blahs. EVO controlled many studies,
52:04
Speaker 2: in many studies, y'all, and the trial participants were women
52:07
Speaker 2: with PPD who met all the rec requirements and patients
52:12
Speaker 2: received all these things and it did well for a
52:15
Speaker 2: majority of the patients. Again, this is also one of
52:18
Speaker 2: those things where different people have different needs. Certain people
52:22
Speaker 2: have allergies and such, so there was side effects that
52:26
Speaker 2: you have to look out for. But again twenty twenty three,
52:28
Speaker 2: that is a big step that they actually found a
52:30
Speaker 2: treatment or looked for a treatment in itself. Now we'll
52:34
Speaker 2: say in twenty nineteen, the first actual medication which is
52:38
Speaker 2: brixent alone was approved, and this is an injection for IVS,
52:43
Speaker 2: so obviously I think it's probably pretty soon after childbirth
52:49
Speaker 2: the way that it's administered, I'm assuming. But those are
52:52
Speaker 2: two great things. Again, it was twenty nineteen when that
52:55
Speaker 2: first one was approved, so wow, and again twenty twenty
53:02
Speaker 2: four when the oral pill was created, so great. But wow.
53:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's long been an issue where not
53:15
Speaker 1: only do we not not run have scientific stadies on women,
53:20
Speaker 1: pregnancy is a big one, and I'm going to assume
53:24
Speaker 1: even post pregnancy there's just not been a lot at.
53:28
Speaker 2: All well as we've seen in this administration after birthday
53:33
Speaker 2: don't care. Yes, again, these are good steps. This medications
53:38
Speaker 2: are good steps, but we have to talk about the
53:40
Speaker 2: fact that this is just a part of the treatment
53:43
Speaker 2: that is needed and not necessarily the whole treatment. And
53:46
Speaker 2: this level of conversation about preventative treatments is big again
53:51
Speaker 2: about it being inclusive of the entire family. I think
53:55
Speaker 2: that's also something that we don't talk enough about. But
53:57
Speaker 2: the pandemic and obviously all of that affected what we
54:02
Speaker 2: have seen and how how treatments have been given. We're
54:06
Speaker 2: back here now and obviously have been a little more
54:09
Speaker 2: relaxed since then. We shouldn't be Honestly, I don't know
54:13
Speaker 2: if we need to be completely shut down, but we
54:14
Speaker 2: should be cautious in masking and doing all those things.
54:16
Speaker 2: But you know, that's a whole different episode. There's the
54:20
Speaker 2: depth of conversation that needs to be had now that
54:22
Speaker 2: we've normalized that. We need to stop making it seem
54:25
Speaker 2: that this is okay and that's all that is needed
54:27
Speaker 2: is just a conversation. We need to open it up
54:29
Speaker 2: to treatments and counseling and education, like they need to
54:34
Speaker 2: direct that money that they're sending to that dough just
54:37
Speaker 2: been saving by cutting these programs specifically, I guess, but
54:43
Speaker 2: there you go. I know that's that's again. This is
54:45
Speaker 2: very like brief like conversation, an hour less than an
54:50
Speaker 2: hour conversation in this topic. And there's so much more
54:53
Speaker 2: that need to be said. Obviously, we are not professionals.
54:56
Speaker 2: We did not do this depth of research and surveys
54:59
Speaker 2: and questions, but we think it's important that we have
55:01
Speaker 2: these conversations, even if we're not the ones that are
55:04
Speaker 2: getting pregnant. This affects all of us, This affects all
55:07
Speaker 2: the people in our community and we need to be
55:09
Speaker 2: talking about why research like this is so important.
55:13
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and as always, listeners, if you have any thoughts
55:18
Speaker 1: about this, please let us know. You can email us
55:22
Speaker 1: at Hello at Stephannever Told You dot com. You can
55:24
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55:30
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55:33
Speaker 1: as always to our super producer Gris, Senior Executiveroducer Maya
55:36
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