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Old School Game Warden Stories with Bill Ables · 6 Ranch Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 2: These are stories of outdoor adventure and expert advice from folks with calloused hands.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: I'm James Nash and this is the Six Ranch Podcast.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Because, you know, in Oregon it's a Fish and Wildlife Division, a Traffic Division, a Criminal Division, an.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Artisan Division.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, so you were Fish and Wildlife Correct my entire career.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: And when did that start my entire career and when did that?
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: start.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Well, that started in 1972, actually, or 73.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I graduated from Oregon State in 73.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: And out of 254 graduating fish and wildlife biologists, only three of them got permanent fish and wildlife or biologist jobs, and so I was searching and I went up to you were not one of the three, I was not one of the three.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Probably a long ways down the list.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: So did you want to work as a biologist?
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, by all means.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: That was my goal for many, many, many years.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: And where did that come from?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Because that's the path I started down in college as well, oh really.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: But as I started to get into it, and after my first year, I was looking at the curriculum for the years that were to come, and very few of my classes had anything to do with biology.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: True, especially wildlife biology.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: You know, there is a lot of math, there is organic chemistry organic chemistry too.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: There just didn't seem to be a bunch of stuff that was like studying critters in the field, which is what I thought I was getting into.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: I think you got to get past those first two years.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: That's when you get into what I felt was the meat of things.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: No, John Ely, I don't know if you knew those first two years.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's when you get into what I felt was the meat of things.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know, no, john Ely I don't know if you knew Craig Ely in La Grande.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: He was the ODFW regional soup Yep, good friends with my brother in Pendleton.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: We were raised in Pendleton.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: John Ely was the biologist, wildlife biologist over there and I always, I and I just had a.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: I loved the outdoors, loved to fish, hunt and all that fun stuff, and I always wanted to call John up and say, hey, john, can you take this young student, this dummy, with you on just a day's ride?
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: And I never did.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: And I look back at that, you know, looking at these kids nowadays, you know, and I always ask them the same question have you ever felt like you wanted to go for a ride or something you know?
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Anyway, I didn't do that, but I still had that passion to be a biologist and anyway.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: So then graduated from PHA at Pendleton High School and then we went to two years there at Blue Mountain in Pendleton, as a money thing for me and looking back on it had I went to a big college like Oregon State the first year, first year I've been washed out, this pendleton kid.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: So I would have been washed out.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Where did you go to high school pendleton?
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: okay yeah, both judy and I went to pendleton.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't have the study habits I mean, yeah, that sort of thing.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: But anyway, after two years in blue mountain, uh, I went down to oregon state and finished up down there in the Fish and Wildlife curriculum down there.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: But there was no jobs and so we had a fin and antler club and maybe you belonged to the fin and antler club when you were there and what we'd do?
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: We'd bring in different entities, organizations that hired young biologists.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Anyway, I can remember this one meeting I went to.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: It had ODFW, it had the BLM, it had the Forest Service, it had OSP and there was a gentleman, he was a captain of the Fish and Wildlife Division and he was really long-sighted, captain Walt Hershey.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: And what he was doing, he was going out to these colleges like Oregon State and recruiting fish and wildlife biologists, wanting them to be game wardens, and so anyway, they all gave their presentation.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: I went home that night with Judy and I said you know, there's a guy that says there's a job, possibly as a warden here in.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Oregon and so I went up to.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: I got a meeting with him and went up to Salem.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: He sat me down in his office just a really neat man and talked a little bit.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: He said you want to take a test.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I said, well, what for?
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: He said well, we got a cadet program.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: He said, well, our county, they have road closures up there.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: He says we send cadets up there in the fall and all you do is you go around and look in the snow and you look for vehicle tracks and you follow these vehicle tracks and you issue these people citations.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: You know, I thought hey, I.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: And he says you know, he says we got some openings for this summer, one at Diamond Lake up out of Roseburg, and he said, would you be interested in that?
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: And I said before I just walked in the door an hour earlier you know, and I said sure, because I didn't have a job.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was graduating from college and a wife to support and no place to go to earn money.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: And was Judy teaching at this time?
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: No, we graduated together in 73.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: And we'd just gotten married in 72.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: But anyway.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: So we bought us a little 17-foot travel trailer, took it to Diamond Lake and the people that owned the lodge at that time they loved the OSP people coming up there and be on site.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: So they gave us a free RV space, they paid for our propane and Judy, she was a waitress in the local cafe there at Diamond Lake and I got to work on the lake with the officers from Roseburg who came up there and they trained me how to run the boat and meet people and stuff like that.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: So this went all summer.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: I loved it up there.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: We had one of the best summers we've ever had and because in the evenings I'd take an evening off every now and then.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: If you know Diamond Lake, it's used to have and maybe it still does some beautiful rainbow trout and you'd take a fly rod down there on the northwest side and in five minutes you'd catch, you know, a couple 18-inch rainbows and that'd feed Judy and I for a week almost, you know.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: So we lived off fish.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: And anyway one of the officers, he said, bill, have you ever thought about being a permanent OSP.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I said yeah, I could do something like this.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: Anyway, larry said well, write a letter, you know, to headquarters.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: And I addressed it to Captain Hershey.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: And Lieutenant from Roseburg, duane Pankratz came up there one day this assignment went through September and he said I understand you want to be a state policeman full time.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: I said yes, sir, and I said you know, I prefer fish and game, but I'll work patrol because getting into fish and wildlife division was hard at that time it was sought after.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: And I'll work traffic, you know, any place in the state, but except, but, except portland.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: I said, sir, I will not work in the portland area period.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: You know I'm an eastern oregon boy.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: He said okay, well, you come back.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Uh, he says we got an opening at uh gold beach on the south coast and he says I said now is it fishing game?
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: He said yes, it is.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: And uh, I said now is it fish and game?
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: He said yes, it is, and I said I'll take it, you know.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: I said now, lieutenant, tell me where Gold Beach is at, you know.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Gold Beach kind of has a reputation for poachers and wildlife criminals today.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I've since learned that.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: What was it like then?
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Well, let me I'll finish my story.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I never did go there.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Anyway, lieutenant Pankratz, come back a week later, two weeks later, and he said, bill, you're an Eastern Oregon boy, you'd be bugging us to go back east all the time you're on the coast.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: I said, possibly.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: He said, but we got an opening in Ontario, I said.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: He said, would you like to go to Ontario?
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: I said, sir, that's as far east as you can send me, I'll take it.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: And I knew a little bit about Ontario, but not as much as I was to learn the next few years.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: So anyway, long story short, after my cadet assignment in September, recruit class was in October Went through the recruit class and I reported to Ontario in May, I think May of 73.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 73.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: No, yeah, september or May, but anyway.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: So that's how we ended up in Ontario.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: So it's a roundabout way to get to Eastern Oregon.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how long did you spend in Ontario?
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: We spent a little over three years.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Judy taught school at Vail, and not Vail, but Nyssa and I worked there.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: And, being the young guy, they gave me the South End, which was McDermott, jordan Valley.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: And you know I'm a timber guy and this desert really didn't appeal to me too much.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what If I was in Wallowa County now, I'd be in the desert down there.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It's that beautiful down there.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: It's pretty special, oh it's.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: People have no idea what's down there in that desert.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: And let's keep it that way, yes, and the Basco people down there, james, they are the neatest people you'd ever want to be around.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I found, you know, in three years I didn't even touch that country because you'd have to go down there for three or four days, spend nights, just to you know, learn it, and it's such a vast area just to cover it, you know.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: And those Basco people, if you caught them doing something wrong and you didn't cite them, they lost all respect for you.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Period Interesting, if you cited them, it was a good site.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: They would invite you in for dinner, they'd let you use their house.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'd never been around folks like that and made a lot of good friends.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Where do you think that sense of accountability, self-accountability, comes from?
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, it had to be the family, the Basco family unit, you know?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: No, I mean they didn't lie to you.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: I mean, even if they did some of the, they weren't bad by no means, but they were just forthright.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just the way they were.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so what were they up to?
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Were they shooting the occasional deer out of season?
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that, and sage they love sage grouse yeah, I mean which.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: I always wanted to shoot one in June too, but never did.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: But good people hardworking good people.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but good people, hardworking good people.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: So you were down there.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Let's see, that'd be before the Claude Dallas thing.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: I just yeah that was during the Claude Dallas thing actually, yeah, I knew both those officers that got shot.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: So what's your take on that?
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Well, knowing both Conley and Bill Bill Pogue, he and I worked a lot of night shifts down there because I'd go down to Jordan Valley and Bill was.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: He was out of Idaho, of course, and we would set up road checks and the locals down there in the Idaho area thought Bill Pogue, they didn't like him.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was very strict, but I'll tell you what.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Working with him, he was strict for a reason.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of respect for Bill, but he called a spade a spade.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I didn't work with Conley that much.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: I knew him.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: I took him up the Snake River on the jet boat a couple times.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: But he's a big man but he had a heart the size of a pig heart.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Just a neat guy.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Everyone I've ever talked to said that Conley Alms was just a sweetie.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Everybody liked him, period yeah.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: You know what happened down there.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: I know I'd like to do the gentleman that shot him.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: You know I have a hard time calling him a gentleman.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah Well, I'm curious about that because you know that there's a risk.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: You know that there's danger in what you're doing, but when a couple fellow wildlife officers get killed in line of duty in the area that you're working in, that brings it home in a certain way.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: It really enrages you.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like when the Twin Towers got airborne or ran into back in Pennsylvania.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: It just erupted something in me that you don't realize is there.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Until something like that happens, you just get instantly pissed.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: I mean you just yeah, and that's what that did to me.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: We took Fleur up in our airplanes looking for him and he was.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: He was quite an outdoorsman.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: You don't give him that much credit, yeah, but he was a coward.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, period yeah.
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: It's an interesting story and it continues to be interesting.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Right, and there was, there was celebration of Claude Dallas that I think just came from people being feeling feeling hurt by the government and that they didn't know where feeling hurt by the government and that they didn't know where where to place that hurt.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: So, you know, they, a lot of people looked at him as a, as a hero, where other people are looking at him as a villain and then the stories start getting twisted around and it it just it ran out of control it was black and white.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: There was nobody in between.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: On that one Really.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean either they were the hero you know felt he was a hero, others felt he was a villain.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Bottom line.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I did a whole episode on Claude Dallas here a while back and somebody sent me a picture of a tip jar from a bar in Nevada that was for people to to put money in for him, and he's living back in the Oahe now.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Oh he is.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: I heard he was in McGrath, alaska.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: He was in Alaska for a while, but yeah, he's cowboying back in the Oahe now.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that is some of the neatest country.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you've been down there, you've ever been to Anderson Crossing.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: I've not no.
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: It's that I own country where the three states come together.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Oh just gorgeous country.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I, I do love it down there.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I love the lava flows, um, it's just, it's incredible.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: The, the desert is really special.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: But the desert, kind of like the canyons here, it's an acquired taste.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: You don't necessarily understand and love it at first sight.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: It takes a little bit of time before you start to figure out how special it really is.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Hey, man, my coach.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: He worked in Ontario, malheur County, his entire career and I got there.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Jack had 22 years in and he taught me a lot about the desert and I always wanted Jack to write a book because he had a memory that was just par excellence.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And I can't remember my name from yesterday, but he never did.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Jack just passed away.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: But I remember Jack.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: We'd go by a ranch house one day, out by Bully Creek Reservoir, and Jack turned to me and said, oh, so-and-so moved back there.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: I looked and there was a mailbox, no name on it, no vehicle there, and I followed down the road about a half mile and said, jack, how in the hell do you know that so-and-so moved back there?
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: Well, his horse is in the corral.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: This guy had a memory.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: This guy had moved to Boise for five or eight years, came back to Malheur County, brought that same horse that Jack knew about.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and I mean the guy was phenomenal, but yeah, it's just one of those special places over there that people like Jack.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: I mean you know, when you're awarding people you hate your love, you're, you know, not a lot of in-between stuff, but Jack had a lot of respect over there and I said I'd ask him about different people, what do you think about this guy?
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: And Jack always told me he said Bill, he says I'm not going to share my opinion about him.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: I want you to form your own opinion about him.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: You know, in your tenure here and I really respected and appreciated Jack for doing that yeah, because how you see somebody and how I see somebody might be a little bit different Sure.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And the way you go into it will change that first and lasting impression.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Big time.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so where did you move after?
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Ontario.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: We spent about three and a half years in Ontario and I told Jack.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: I said, jack, I got to get back to Timber.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I said I'm a Timber guy.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I got to get back the timber.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: I said I'm a timber guy.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I got to get back there and Dean Harrison was up here.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: I knew Dean and I said I want to go to Alaska.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: My wife didn't obviously she went out.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: But, and I had several offers up in Alaska because they wanted wardens with pilot's license to come up there and I'd take it home to her.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: And well, when are you going to move up there?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: You can go.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: You got it, but long story short.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: So I said you know, honey, let's pick a spot in Oregon where we both like, and anyway, wallowa County, because Judy was a little bit familiar with it.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Her parents used to bring her up here as a kid and I was Boy Scouts, brought me up here, and that's as remote as we could find in Oregon.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: So I put my request for transfer in for Willow County.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Well, anyway, dean actually Dean was still working another officer up here he transferred out and they asked me if I wanted to come up here and it was May of 76.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: And I said, hey, when do you want me up there?
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: And we were ready to move the next day.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: So we moved up to Willow County in May of 76.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, been here ever since it ran me out, yeah, Now, Judy was my second-grade teacher and I think this podcast is the first time I've ever not called her Mrs Ables.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: It feels a little weird to me still so did she start teaching up here as soon as you moved up?
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she taught in Nyssa and then she moved up here and she taught gymnastics.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: Larry oh golly, I just lost his name the superintendent, chrisman Chrisman.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you, larry Chrisman.
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: Larry wanted, gymnastics teaches a kid a lot, you know, not just how to tumble and stuff, there's a lot to the learning process that gymnastics does.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: And Judy, she did a lot of kinesiology courses and things like that.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Anyway, larry got a hold of her and said hey, would you mind, would you teach gymnastics here in Enterprise for our kids?
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: And she did.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Anyway, then she went in.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: She was a high school physical ed teacher and so she, after teaching gymnastics there, she really fell in love with the elementary and she said I want to go back and get my elementary degree.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: So she hustled the LeGrand for a couple years and got her credentials to be an elementary teacher and then they hired her to be one of your teachers.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Yep, yeah.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: She's very, very nice.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: That's about what I remember.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: I don't remember a lot of second grade.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: She is actually.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a nice person, Nice person.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a nice person.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Nice person, yeah, and you're a nice person too.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: I wonder how you manage the difficulty of the confrontations that are just part of the job of being a game warden, like that's a confrontational job.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: How does that work, especially in a small community where you're going to see those people again at the grocery store and at the gas station and maybe at church?
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: It can be confrontational, james.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I won't say it has to be, and that's all how, as you mentioned earlier, it's all how you present yourself.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I'm just a real, you know dumb kid in Pendleton and I had a little experience with game wardens over there chasing me around and I had a lot of respect for them and they were.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: All my contacts over there were very good and scared the peawattens out of me a couple times, but they were still very good and I did some wrong things I truly did when I was growing up.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Not a bad thing, but just but just you know, stupid wildlife violation, uh, and anyway.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: So, and that's how I approached people when I was working.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Uh, I always, I guess one of my sayings to some of these people were if you want to act like an asshole, I'll treat you like an asshole if you want to act like a lady or gentleman, I'll treat you like a lady or gentleman.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: And they kind of turn their head at you and look at you like, oh, the onus is on me, yeah, choose your own adventure.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: But you know, I didn't have a lot of trouble with people.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: I guess I related to them, you know.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: But most people out there are absolutely super nice people.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: They truly are, and you can't go into a camp, you can't go into a group of hunters.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: You know thinking you're God Almighty, that's just not me number one.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: But if you do that it's an uphill battle.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Sure, it's an uphill battle, and everybody that you're talking to is armed.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I know that that didn't bother me, sure.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, even if they're not, you might as well assume that they are Period.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, if you don't, you're yeah.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: So I don't know what that mentality would actually change, but the reality is that they are.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: You know, that's kind of the nature of the job.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what were some of the popular crimes that you had to deal with here in Wallowa County specifically?
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: You know most what I found over the years.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Most fish and wildlife violations are opportunists.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: They don't go out there to violate, right.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: You know an opportunity presents themselves and they make the wrong choice and you know you have to deal with those folks.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I always felt warnings most of the time did you 10 times more good than a citation.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and thank Walt Hershey.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: He was a proponent of that.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: You know you always hear police officers like to write a lot of tickets and there's a numbers thing and I'll be honest with you, state police had that for a while where you had to produce so many numbers.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Well, walt Hershey wasn't of that mindset and again, he was way ahead of his time and he felt that a warning, you know, was just good, if not more powerful than a citation.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: That's interesting.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I bet there's some psychological studies behind that now.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: There has to be.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, I can almost guarantee it because I mean, you know, on the snake river I spent a lot of time down there in the jet boat and drift boats.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: But uh, what we will?
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: You know, people sometimes forget their fishing license, can't find it, and what we started doing is we had a little form, just basically, we just mimeographed it off handwritten form and say okay, would you mind mailing me your fishing license?
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: I'll give you 10 days, you know, and I'll give you a warning now.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: But here's my address, here's a little form, fill it out, send it to me.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: And you don't know how appreciative people, honest people, were of that.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: They're not getting a citation, they don't got to go to court, they don't have to deal with a court system, and I know we gained a lot of respect over something like that.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Numbers weren't important to me.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I like to catch the really bad guys, and so we kind of keyed in on the.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: We had an operation up in Wenaha where people were killing big bulls and then, you know, cutting their heads off and hanging them up in trees to come back the next spring and getting them, and we did some covert stuff with that and those were fun.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Tell me a story about that.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Well, it cost me a wrecked pickup and a wrecked horse trailer that the state wouldn't pay me for.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: But no, we had these people up in the Wenaha and we set it up where we'd be up there a full month and this was in December and we never caught them, never did make the case.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: But we put a lot of effort into it.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: But we'd take our horses and mules and we'd go over in the Wenaha and we'd set up a camp and we'd just glass, we'd just sit on our hindies and we'd just wait for folks to do what they're going to do.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: And that's where I learned how to drink Carolines in my coffee.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: You know, was during that operation.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: But coming out of there one day, I had my pickup and my fifth-wheel horse trailer, I had my mules, I had five animals in it and it just snowed.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: And, unbeknownst to me, there were some chip truck drivers going into a ranch's place and they were chipping trees and of course those chip trucks packed that snow down right, turned it into ice.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Well then, we had about three, four inches of fresh snow on top of that, so you couldn't see the ice.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: And we got to Trailhead and I didn't chain up, put everything in, we're heading home and I got to the top of this one hill and it was probably a 100 yard hill, maybe 150 at the most, and I had about 15 yards to go to make it and my tires started spinning and I started going backwards.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: And.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: I had a passenger and a guy in the back, in my behind, the in the backseat.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: This is some steep country.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: And you don't know how fast you can get going.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: You know, on sheer ice.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: And next thing, I know, and I had it under control about half the way down, but then just in a split second that horse trailer jackknife went on its side and about took my cab off.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: It didn't and of course I'm worried about the animals back there.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Now we all three get out and I know I'm going to go back there and just see five dead horses, mule, sure, and I looked in there.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Of course it's sideways.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: And I looked in there, of course it's sideways.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And I looked in there and they were moving, except my one, mare and uh, and I had a pistol, but I went in, I opened the door and I just started cutting lead ropes because they were kind of hanging from the upper side and they all got up, except my mare and I.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: I told steve, I said she, you know, because there's quite a bit of blood on her, and I kicked her in the belly.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Well, she kicked back at me you know, and anyway she was just yeah, we got them all out of there, you know.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: But and then trying to get the state to pay for my anyway, it was a long story, but Bill paid for everything.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Well, that's frustrating.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Bill paid for everything Well, that's frustrating, especially when there's an expectation that you're going to be using your own gear for a job.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's, you know, my lieutenant.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: He went to bat for me.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: But the big boys down there said no, so you never did catch those folks.
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: Never did Not those, Not those.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: But there was other folks that did the same thing that we were lucky enough to fight Right.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: But you know, there's a lot of people out there that I mean they'll do something wrong again in the opportunist category.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: But they don't like other people.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: When I retired in 01, it took probably three years until the calls at night stopped coming in.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I'd get calls from people all over the county saying, hey, I'm not going to tell you who I am.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Most of the times I knew them by their voice, you know.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: But they would say hey, so and so just killed a deer elk, whatever.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: All he took was a back strap.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: He said that pisses me off.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and uh, I enjoyed talking to those people.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know there's.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: There's the crimes that are that are written down in books, and then there's crimes that that are sort of against the social, the social tolerance, social acceptance.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what this was.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: And here in Wallowa County, if somebody was shooting for meat and it was out of season, that didn't feel like much of a crime to a lot of folks here.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: But no matter what, if they didn't use that meat, that was a crime and it was socially unacceptable.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Here still is, and that's something that I I very much appreciate about this community.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: I never even considered something like that, something like wanton waste could occur.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Um, until it happened with the local outfitter here, I was like, oh wow, like I just never even imagined such a thing.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I remember going down.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I loved to work in Naha Again, I kind of always.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: When I first came here Hat Point, lord Flat, that was my favorite area and I'd go to the Naha Cafe about 8, 30, 9 o'clock every morning to have coffee.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Well, my intent was just to get to know the people down there.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Well, down there, if you've been down there back then, there was a table for the ladies and there was a table for the gentlemen, and that was the time they'd done their chores and they'd come in to have morning coffee.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Well, I'd sit at the counter and I'd sat there.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Over the first probably six months they wouldn't hardly talk to me and pretty soon one of the and I knew most of the ranchers they said come on over, sit down with us.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: And so it took six months for them to warm up to me, or me to warm up to them, to get them to.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: But yeah, after that, and they wouldn't tell me nothing.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, no, they were like you were talking about.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Hey, if somebody needed it, by all means go out.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I'll go out and get one for you, you know, but don't waste it you know, and I got calls from some of those people.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: You know about just what we were talking about.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: But yeah, neat people.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Those are Naha people Mary Marks Mary and Kit Marks up the upper river, and maybe you knew them after Kit passed away.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: I'd pull in there and I'd check on Mary every now and then, well, grandma wrote that book about Mary Marks.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: There you go, yeah.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Neat lady.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they let me stay in their cabin at Freezeout Creek that burnt down one of the last fires.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a beautiful cabin.
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: I mean oh, my goodness, Jim Dorrance, there at Phyllis White, you know, with his daughter.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: He's on the cafe down there.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Jim, he cowboyed down that Nevada country and all over Buckaroo.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: In fact my uncle in Alahelco knows him, knew Jim.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: I got him together actually before Jim passed.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: But I come in there and Jim, he just he come back up there pretty stoved up and he'd just wash dishes for Phyllis.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: I got to know Jim.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: I mean we had some really neat conversations One day I said, jim, when's the last time you've been out to Doran's cow camp?
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: His cow camp, right?
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: He said oh, we moved out of there in 43.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: I said you haven't been back there since then.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: He says no.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: I said Jim, get your butt in my pickup.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: We're going to go for a ride.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Actually it was the next day and I took him up there and we drove clear out to Lord Flatfield, naha, and he was showing me trails here and this, there and this.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: You know I mean I learned more from that gentleman, you know, in that day's ride than I'll ever, you know learn in a person's career, and when that burnt down last two years ago I was in that enraged stage.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: That happened, you know.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Forest Service almost seems relieved when these homesteads burn down.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: You said it real good right there.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really sad because we use those things.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many nights I've spent in that Dorrance cow camp.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: One night I was in there during deer season, I don't know when, and a cowboy pulled in there after dark and he was going to buckaroo up there.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: He said, well, Bud Stangl's going to come in here and we're going to buckaroo up there.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: He said, well, bud stangle's going to come in here and we're going to fly for cows tomorrow.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, that'd be cool.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: He said I'm not going to get in that plane.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I don't fly, you know.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: And the and my brain started working.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe bud needs an extra set of eyes.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: So I get down there at daylight and bud lands and this cowboy's there and he said, hey, check this place, this place, this place and that place.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: You know we got so many missing.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I said Bud.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: I said, do you need an extra pair of eyes?
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hop in, you know.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: So I jumped in the Super Cub and for two and a half hours we fly around looking for cows and Bud oh, look at that bull.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: He banked that cowboy.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Look at that bear.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Oh, I got to look for cows too.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: You know that was Bud Stango.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: And after about an hour and 15 minutes old, bill's belly was getting a little talkative and I tapped Bud on the shoulder and I said, bud, you got a six sack.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Didn't even look at me, didn't do nothing, he just grabbed a six sack and handed it back to me.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Of course I do my thing, you know.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: And he still look at this.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no mercy.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Zero, absolutely zero.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: But he was a hell of a pilot, that guy.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: It's amazing.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: But yeah so.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Did you have anybody during your career that you were just constantly trying to get?
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Was there ever like a nemesis or a person that you were kind of playing cat and mouse with for a long time?
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: You know some of our biggest cases come out of the West Side People that utilize over here.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: One was a Bear Gall Bladder case.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that doesn't seem like it's much of a thing anymore, but it sure was for a while.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: It was a big thing Asians you know, coming over here and I can remember going down to the west side.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know how many teams we had.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: There was over 100 officers involved in that.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I had a team of seven guys that searched a house out near Eugene and it's funny we went into this house because this was one of the main operators and we didn't find any dried gallbladders.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: But I had an officer that was.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: He was basically drawing to the inch of the house because we'd find some evidence here and we'd say, okay, we took this from here and we were logging it.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: And at the end of everything he walks up and he said Bill, he said this closet says this far, but the inside dimensions are this far and there was about an 18-inch space that was unaccounted for.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Any long story short, a false wall and he had a grill operation up in his attic.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: Oh really.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: That's the kind of people you're dealing with.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: That's the kind of people you're dealing with.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean but yeah, the bear gallbladder thing that hit in North Carolina too for a while and they had to to sharpen up some some regulations around their bear stuff back there.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's so crazy to me that that there's all these different wildlife trafficking issues that end up being oh, this is used as an aphrodisiac in Asia, and it spans a huge number of species and materials, whether that's rhinoceros horn or bear gallbladder or ground-up velvet elk antler you can keep on going down the list.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: And it's like what's going on with these people over there?
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Can they just like relax and not snort animals?
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: It's crazy.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Well, it really drives a.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: It's a money issue over here for these people, yeah.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Our end of it.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I mean they're selling these gallbladders for a lot of money.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, we found bear carcasses here where they just see the incision.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: They went in there and pulled the gallbladder out and that was all they took.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Really, oh yeah, I won't say it wasn't uncommon, but I can.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: You know, right now I can think of three right off the top of my head.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Wow, right here in Wallowa County those people were coming right in.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: But you know, as far as local people here, james, no, there was no big operators here.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: I mean they all did the opportunity thing.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: It's most of.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those people come in from the outside.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Here I'm talking Bobcat spotlighters.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: I remember one call one night from a gentleman down below MNaha.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: This is February, and, Bill, he said I just had a spotlighting and a shot right below my house.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Well, February, how do you get out of Mnaha?
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one way.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: One way, I mean, I wouldn't say it's easy, but he had a fairly good description of the vehicle.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: So this is 10 o'clock at night.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Which this could be anything right.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: That could be somebody that's just checking for calves shoots a coyote.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Well, bud was a rancher, he knew that kind of stuff.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I mean this, was they shot something off the road?
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, raccoon, whatever you know.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: And so I saddle up, jump my pickup head down that way Now it's about 11 o'clock at night I pass the vehicle, I turn around and I stop these two gentlemen and we have a conversation.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: I say, hey, you mind if I search your vehicle?
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: And they had suitcases back there.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: They were from way out of the area and I'm getting.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm watching these guys, I know their arm, you know all this stuff doing my thing.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: And I see these lights come up from Anaha.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: They stop about 100 yards behind me, 80 yards, and then they leave the lights on us, you know.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: So I'm kind of now I'm not only concentrating on these two gentlemen, I'm concentrating on that rig behind me.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: And so I get done with them, find the little-legal things there didn't find the bobcat we were looking for and turn them loose.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: They were packing some paper.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: And then this car pulls up slowly to me.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Well, it was a gentleman that called and his neighbor.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: After he called me, he knew I'd be by myself.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: He called his neighbor.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: They jumped in the car, had two rifles sitting next to each one of them.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: They would have killed those sons of bitches in a heartbeat if they had done anything to me.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Sure, I know that, and my, you know?
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: Uh, that's cool.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is cool, you know.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: So what were those guys up to?
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: What did they shoot?
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, bobcats, they've been camped down there for half a dozen days.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, they were just coming out and they seen a raccoon along the road and, yeah, you know what was a bobcat worth in those days oh, a good cat was worth 300 bucks a lot of money, a lot of money.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I know, it was again money driven yeah, yeah and I like bobcats a lot, you you know, but that just tells you.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: You know, as an officer you can build this kind of rapport up with your local people or you can let it go the other way.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: You know, and those guys, I won't say they saved my life, but I'll guarantee you I would have been home one way or another that night.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: You know, because of them.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Sure, so yeah, that's cool.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I had a funny one down in Omaha here a couple years ago I guess more than a couple years ago now but one of our local wildlife officers who's still here and who's a friend of mine which is why I'm not going to tell you that his name's Jacob Foe, was down there turkey hunting with my buddy Jim and we'd shot a turkey first thing in the morning and packed up our decoys and we went up the canyon a little ways, found a pretty spot and took some pictures and we're coming back out and Jacob goes past us and then stops in the road and starts to back up.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: I had never met him at that time and I walked down there and I said hey, like you looking for us, he goes, I think so.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Are you turkey hunting?
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: I said yeah, and uh, he goes.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: How many turkeys you shoot?
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: And I said one.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: He said well, are you sure?
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Yep, pretty sure we got one.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: He said well, mind, if I look in the truck and I'm like yeah, go for it, knock yourself out.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Then open up the back door there and he sees this bag and he turns around and he's got this kind of funny look on his face like this gotcha, and he goes.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Well, somebody called and they saw you put that second turkey in a bag and I instantly knew exactly what was going on.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: I was so excited for what was about to happen next.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, all right.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: And he reached over there and grabbed it and it was our decoy.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: You know that we'd put in the bag.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, it was so good, it was so good, I loved it.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: And he's a great example of a super solid game warden.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Right, he laughed it off.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, have a good day, see you later.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: And I think that we're we continue to be blessed by really, really solid game troops here and you know our, our state police, they're, they're friends and they're allies.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And if you do wrong yeah, you know you, you did wrong You're going to have to pay for it.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: But there's times I've had times in Hell's Canyon where, you know, I one time I was broke down, uh like had a, had a part that to fix it, checked our licenses and went about his day, and I think that that's how that relationship should be.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but it's just not always the case everywhere.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Like you said, it doesn't have to be adversarial, it doesn't have to be confrontational, but it really depends about the attitudes of everybody involved.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: As you're getting into it.
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: I totally agree with that.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking of stories now that's popped up in my career.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: I had, if I may no, please do Hell's Canyon.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Hell's Canyon is my spot, as is Lord Flatton, and Dean Harrison told me.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: He said, bill, I understand you kind of like Lord Flatton, that Snake River captain.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: I said I do.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: I'm going to give you one piece of advice.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: I said, what's that, dean?
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: He says if there's a half inch of snow on the road, put all four chains on, period.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: Well, it didn't take me long to figure out why he told me that, but anyway, I made a lot of good friends out in those camps.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: I knew a lot of the camps that had really good pie makers in them and coffee makers and they let me imbibe in there, things like that.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: But anyway, I went out there one day and I was going out this one ridge and this camp that I knew from Ontario, they said hey, bill, I don't know a lot, but I just know that somebody wasted a five point bull down here.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: They shot it and just brought the head out and uh, that's all they knew.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: So out the ridge I went and anyway, long story short, uh, this young man from the coast had, went down in there.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Uh, went down in there and killed a five-point bull.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Didn't know how to get it, hadn't been taught how to get it, and just cut the head off.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Was going to go back and get his buddies and they were going to come down and salvage the meat.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: Well, he brought the head out and the meat spoiled.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, doesn't take very long.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: No, not that particular year especially.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: And so now they had a five point head.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Well, they went ahead and killed a spike bull, which at that time was a three point bull area.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Only they put the spike meat with the five point head.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: How'd that go anyway, there was another, anyway that.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: So when I checked that meat, I could see it wasn't a mature carcass, right.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: And so they says well, so when I checked that meat, I could see it wasn't a mature carcass, right.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: And so they says well, the camp down the way is the one that killed the spike.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: And so I go down there and I confront them and no, we didn't do it.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Well, who you know?
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Who put the tag on it?
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Well, I did.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Well, let's go take a look at your carcass.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: We said it's down there a mile and a half.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: You know your car, because we was down there a mile and a half, you know.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: I said, well, that's fine, let's walk down there.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: And so, as we were walking down there and this young man was probably 23, 24, well built, and, uh, we get about halfway down there and she's, you know, he turned around.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: He said I don't have to take you down there, do I?
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: I said no, you don't, but you're going to.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: And he knew I was serious, and so he did a 180 and off it, long story short, went down there, and sure enough, it was a spike bull that he had killed.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: And so, anyway, these and this young man that did kill the five point, we later we were good friends, and they were all good people actually, but they just made a stupid mistake, you know, and were trying to amend it, so to speak, but still it didn't keep that five-point bullet.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: And it was just out of ignorance, it wasn't intentional, by no means, it's just he hadn't been taught how to skin that bull out properly and we did our business with him.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: But later they never felt bad feelings about it?
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: Was there ever a time where you feel like you got it wrong, like you?
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: wrote it Two times.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Two times, yeah, but I wish I could take those citations back.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what happened?
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: I just had a bad day.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, period.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just a bad day.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: You know, I gave somebody a citation that deserved a warning.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know I gave somebody a citation that deserved a warning.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah Well, I mean, it's a human job, right?
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: You're a human being, like you know, sometimes you're not going to be feeling quite right.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I still regret those two times.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I could tell you second by second what happened.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: But I won't, but yeah, yeah.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: So what advice would you give to your younger self?
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: You know what I try to do with these younger officers as they come along.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Number one get your ass out of that pickup Walk.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: You know, go out and meet these hunters in the field.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I've always felt that a hunter a paying hunter that wants to buy the license it's paying your wages he has more respect for you if you get checked five miles back in than out of a pickup window to window, you know.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: So I tried whether I'm in the canyon, I had him walk up to the Tryon Ranch.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I had him walk up to different places just to go up there and uh, you know, contact these people off the off the beaten path and uh, I think I made a little headway there with some of them, but uh, Not enough.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I've, if I've ever seen green pants more than a hundred yards away from a truck.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've made my case.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: But it's a good point.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: You know, if, oh truly, if, if I was in the back country and and, uh, and somebody walked up and said, you know, hey, how's it going?
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Mind, if I check your license, like, as long as I didn't have a bull that was coming in right at that moment, you know I'd have a totally different relationship with that person.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, I've been known to pack quarters after guys.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: I walked in there and they were totally legal.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Well, one of my.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: I issued a citation and I said, well, let's get this thing out of here.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: He says what do you mean?
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: I said, well, I'm going to pack a quarter out, nice.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's good of you, yeah.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: So hey, I'm going.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: And you're an athletic guy, you know that's.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: It's almost, almost fair to throw some weight on there to slow you down.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: How was?
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: How was trucker hunting today, by the way?
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: The wind slowed us down.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: There was wind out there of consistently 25 miles an hour and it blew us out of there.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: We hunted for three and a half hours and finally Pat and I decided, no, we're not going to do this, no more.
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Did you kill a bird?
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: No, no, four shots, zero birds.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, you got a little shooting in though.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, all the dogs they can get a little fast in the wind.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: These two dogs are brother and sister and they're 21 months old now and last year she ate a hun and a chucker and I mean I still had high hopes for her but I had my work cut out.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: Uh, this year, that dog, the first time we went out, we're going along.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: She's lollygagging around out for a walk right with dad.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: And I got this bush and I brought her over there because I knew there been chuckers in there.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: I wanted to send some and she got a little excited.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: You know, half a mile further down the road, uh, she didn't point them but a bunch of chukras got up and I happened to hit one and that bird hit about 20 yards in front of her.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: As soon as they hit the ground, the like a switch went off.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: She ran down there, grabbed that bird, put it in her mouth, looked at me, smiled at me and just chugged back and gave it to me.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, the rest of the day.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: She was a bird dog.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: She knew what she was there for.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's why it's been this whole year chuck around.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: She is a phenomenal, she's a little britney dog and she's the best bird dog I've ever had isn't it awesome when your dog has that light bulb moment and you can just see him, and it seems like it's.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: It especially happens with female dogs, right, male dogs can have that light bulb moment, but then you've got to change the light bulb again.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Good point, but females.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: sometimes it'll just click for them and it's like, oh, I get it now, and then they have it forever.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, she is so much fun to hunt.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: I had my grandson and son out there, chuck and Rharant, this year and we had what we called an epic day out there hunting birds.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: We all got birds.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: I think between the three of us we got 11 birds, but my grandson got his first bird and this dog was working phenomenal.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: She made so many trees it would knock your socks off and, yeah, it would just pinch yourself time and time again.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when did you learn how to fly?
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: You know, I got my license in 75 when Judy and I were over in Ontario.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Judy knew I always wanted to fly.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: My dad flew for a short time and he did a lot of model airplanes, both control line and radio control, and had magazines laying all over the house.
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: So I was kind of bitten by it.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: You know, at a young age and Treasure Valley had a course come up for a term or two terms, I can't remember for 40 hours and by the end of the 40 hours you would solo and you would also take your written test and we didn't have a pot to piss in, no money and, judy, we didn't have no kids and she said why don't you take that class?
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I go say that again, you know.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: So long story short.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: I took that class and that's why I got my license over there in 75.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: So yeah, do you recall how much that class costs?
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Oh boy.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: I could look it up, james, but no, I don't, it wasn't.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was a lot to us then.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, but after that, you know, you still didn't have a lot of money and I didn't fly a lot.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: And then I moved to Alloua County in 76 and they have a flying club over here called the Chief Joseph Flyers it's the oldest still active club in Oregon and I joined that and one of the things you had to do to join that, or when they allowed you to join it, was to fly five hours with Bud Stangle.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: And so I talked to Bud and we met up and I learned more from that man in five hours than I had, up to that point, any instructor ever.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, he showed me things that I didn't realize an airplane could do.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: That's how I feel about Joe Spence today.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Period.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Yep, joe's just a.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: He's a shorter, bud Stangle.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just a, he's a shorter, bud stangle.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know so.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no, that's uh.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: And then and then bud would fly us a lot on on fish and wildlife stuff.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: You know, do a lot of work with bud and I can remember him landing on the vance draw road out there in chesney during elk season.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: We were looking for, uh, road closure violators.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: We landed on this road.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: That wasn't to me.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: It looked like about three feet wide and it was just a vast straw road which is probably what, 14, 15 foot wide, and this guy put this Super Cub down on this road.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: I thought this guy's good Period, I mean.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: And so anyway, that's kind of what kind of?
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Really got me bitten by the flying bug and I joined the club.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Anyway, you know, you go through being president, you go through being treasurer.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: I was in that club for 22 years and we had a 172 and a 182.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Well, finally, I could only afford the 172 at first, and then I think Shannon was born in 79.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: So you can't, you don't have a lot of extra money to spend on airplanes when you've got two kids, and but anyway, we got the.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: We had enough money to buy into the 182, which is a real, more stable platform than 172.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: And anyway did that for 22 years.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: And then retirement was coming up and I was still in the club in 01 and in 03 we decided to buy an airplane and I looked all over the United States, alaska, canada.
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: I wanted a 180, cessna 180 and I'd make a deal on this one and it'd fall through.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: I'd make a deal on that one and it'd fall through.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: I'd make a deal on that one, it'd fall through.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: And uh, I had a 180, uh, found over by tri-cities.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: And so I don't know if you remember uh, uh, oh, the mechanic here, oh shoot, he lives on hurricane creek, dave young dave young he went over to tri-cities with me, out to this rancher's place to do a pre-purchase inspection.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: So we drove over there in my rig and Dave, this was just a plain Jane 180, and Dave said, hey, it's a good airplane.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: I mean there's not a lot to it but it's fine.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: That's what I wanted.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: I wanted a high-time engine where I could redo the engine and then redo the interior and this rancher was a very nice gentleman and then redo the interior.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: And this rancher was a very nice gentleman and him and I got within $1,000 one another on this 1977 180.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: And I was too cheap to come up and he was too stubborn to come down and we separated friends and I didn't buy it.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: And to this day I look back at that and think you dumb shit.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: It had 700 hours on it, which is nothing for an airplane, but anyway I didn't buy it.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: On the airframe.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: On the airframe wow yes, what had happened?
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: this gentleman, uh, him and his son were both pilots and his son was also a skydiver.
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: And one day he his son jumped out and his parachute didn't deploy.
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: And obviously his son jumped out and his parachute didn't deploy, and obviously his son was, and he never flew the airplane again.
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: But anyway, on the way home Dave says you know, I got to go out to a place on Upper Prairie Creek and look at the airplane, mike flew it.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: I just remember Mike.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, floyd.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: And he has a 170 out there.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: He flew here, landed.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: He's never flown it since he's.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, and he has a 170 out there.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: He flew here, landed.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: He's never flown it since he's been here and he wants me to, wants Joe to go out and fly it back to Enterprise and do an annual on it and he's going to sell it.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about a 170.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: I'm not super familiar with that airplane A 170 is a lot less power, but it's basically a mini 180.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, Tail dragger same thing it's got a round tail versus the straight tail of the 180.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: So two days later I went up to Dave's shop and here's this red 170 sitting in his shop.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: So I looked at it and I got a hold of Mike and yeah, he says I'm just so busy, a young family.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: He said I just don't have time to fly.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: I got to hold the mic and uh, yeah, he says I'm just so busy, a young family.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: He said I just don't have time to fly, I gotta get rid of it, you know, just sitting in my barn wasting away.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: So anyway, we made a deal and uh, mike, uh, he sold it to me.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: He said, but, bill, he says, uh, I'd like to have first right of purchase if you decide to sell that airplane.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: I said, hey, deal, done, deal.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: You know you got it.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: And uh, he also had two little girls at that time.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: And uh, I said, you know, mike, I got a couple horses they're getting too old hunting snake river.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: But I like to give away, you know.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: But I, but the deal is I'm their brother and sister.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: I won't separate them, you know.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: And mike says, really, he said I got a daughter and he's a 4-h and I know the other daughter would take the other one.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: So I gave my horses to Mike and those two little girls loved those horses to death, until they passed away.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: In fact, we'd go out to the ranch out there and I can't remember the girl's name now, but they'd take us out and show us Toity and Tardy, you know, yeah, so.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: I got Mike mics here.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: It's Raya and what's the other one?
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, you know.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: But anyway so we traded airplanes for horses, basically with a little cash on top of it, nice, but that was in 2003.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: And this is a tail dragger I'd flown.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: I'd had probably 80 hours in tail draggers at that time, interspersed for a lot of years, because the state police had a 180 that the pilot would let me fly and land, and I got pretty good at that, but anyway.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: So I told Judy, so I haven't flown tail draggers, I want to get Joe Spence.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: Joe and I are going to fly, you know.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: So Joe jumped in the airplane with me and for 11 hours we flew and I'll going to fly, you know.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: So Joe jumped in the airplane with me and for 11 hours we flew, and I'll tell you what that tail dragger got about.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: The best of me.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was thinking maybe this old tail dragger isn't for this old fart.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: You know, just because of the rudder work, just because a tail dragger wants to swap ends on you and land.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: It's just the rudder work.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and anyway Joe talked me through it.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: After 11 hours he said fly it for a few more hours, you know.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: So I flew it till a number 17 hour.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: I was getting halfway as comfortable with it.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: I told Judy I want you to be the first passenger in our airplane, so she'd come down the airport.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: We went down there and we jumped.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: The airplane flew around the valley and I was landing at Enterprise and I always did three-point landings, then Come down, did a really nice landing, but a little gust of wind picked up my right wing and you got to know what to do at that situation.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: I had to think about it instead of just react and I scraped my right, my left wing tip and my left elevator on the gravel there and I don't cuss a lot.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: But Judy said the first words out of my mouth was that's a goddamn $5,000 bill.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: I mean that's.
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: And anyway, I taxied and she wasn't scared.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: I mean it didn't scare her at all.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: We taxied, put it in the hangar, got ahold of Dave, told him what I did.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: Anyway, we took the left wing off, took it up to a gentleman, bill Sapp, in Omak Washington, who had a jig for a Cessna wing.
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: He takes it apart, he calls me up and he said Bill, he says that wing is horrible.
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: He says not, because what you did?
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: He said somebody else has wrecked this airplane before and it spliced a bunch of the ribs inside and he said you know, a 10-year-old kid could have done a better job fixing that.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: He says I got to repair the whole wing.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: So anyway, the insurance company bought my left wing.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: He calls me back and he said I'm worried about your other wing.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: And so Dave and I tore the other wing off, took it up to bill, brought the new wing back and 60 in that original wing, 60% of the rivets were bad in that because of what those people?
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: How bad they had done.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Well, the other wing, 80% of the rivets in that other wing were.
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, he sent me pictures the wing, 80 of the rivets in that other wing were.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, he sent me pictures that would scare you to death.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: And so, yeah, the insurance company paid for my left wing bill, paid for the right wing, which shouldn't be five thousand dollars a wing to get it fixed.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: But it was a blessing in disguise.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: So now I got two new wings, I got a whole new wing on my airplane, uh, but you know that thing could have.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: If you had seen some of those ribs in there, it would scare you to death.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that thing could have if you had seen some of those ribs in there, it would have scared you to death.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: Well, sounds like it's a good thing that you it was a blessing in disguise period Drag the runway with your wingtip a little bit, I mean yeah, there's always an upside to every little story, you know, no matter how bad it is.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: And are you still flying that plane?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, I've got about 1600 hours on it.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: 1600 hours, yeah, it's, uh, it had no 300.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: If you're familiar with uh airplane, it's 145 horse continental.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Well, uh, and I'd go into some.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Really I love going to the back country all over idaho and flew it to alaska and uh, and judy, she goes with me a lot of times, she loves going down to the canyon and stuff, and with that engine that didn't have a lot of power, you had to watch the temperature.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Every 10 pounds in that airplane would make a difference on how it performed period.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: And so you got, I mean you watched everything and really for those 1,100 hours that I flew on, that engine made me a much better pilot.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: And because I'd watch, I mean I'd take a pee before I left, you know.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: And one day at breakfast judy and I were sitting around our wood cook stove and he says you ever thought about putting a bigger engine in that?
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: well, I've been thinking about that for years yeah, obviously I'm a man, I'm thinking about putting a bigger engine and everything and in three seconds I called the gentleman in Visalia, california, who makes a really good engine.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: I said, hey, anyway, yeah, we put a 180-horse, what we call a Lykon conversion, in it.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: Nice In that thing.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: And that changed.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: I tell people now the only similarities between my old airplane and the new airplane is the color.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: I can probably do what a 180 can do easily.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: It only burns three more gallons an hour, nice.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: Well, that's pretty cool, yeah, Okay, last piece of advice, last question Wildlife laws are tricky and I think that a lot of folks with the very best of intentions can still get it wrong Just because there's a lot of rules and regulations out there and I think that a lot of folks see this as a barrier to entry.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: People who are interested in getting into hunting, interested in getting into fishing, they don't understand the language, the regulations, so they're like you know, it's too difficult, I don't, I'm just not going to do it.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: I'll take up, you know, ping pong or something like that golf.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: So what advice do you have to people who don't necessarily have that mentor they don't have that family history for how to get into hunting and fishing and not getting themselves in trouble?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: You know, unfortunately you hit the nail on the head there, james Because of our family structure, anymore there's a lot of young people that would love the outdoors, right, don't have the guidance to get them into it because maybe the father or the mother or the grandpa doesn't hunt or fish.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: I'll relate back to that time.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to John in Pendleton, the biologist there.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: Talk to somebody, I don't care whether it be a retired me or just an experienced hunter you're talking about.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: Those regulations are more complex nowadays.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: Yes, there's no doubt in my mind, cause when people ask me questions, they know my back history on my career.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: I always preference the answer this is a 24 year old answer because I've been retired for 24 years.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: You know things have changed since then.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: And uh, you know, or I'm doing, I'm asking them to look it up, you know, because they there's probably not a lot of similarities.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: Uh, maybe there is, I don't know.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: But uh, yeah, you know, just ask people.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: Uh, you know, talk to people and I tell it to pilots.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: I had a pilot call me up last night, an older gentleman I say older, being in his fifties, just learning how to fly.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: He said Bill, my landings.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: I just can't get my landings down.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: You know he's taking Andy and he's taking him out and I said the best thing you can do is just start talking to other pilots.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: I happened to.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: I'm really involved in aviation nationwide.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: I'm a director for the Idaho Aviation Association.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: I tell people after I retired I work a hell of a lot harder now.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: I get paid a hell of a lot less, but I'm doing it for what Bill wants to do.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: You know we maintain all the airstrips in Hell's Canyon, all throughout Idaho.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: But anyway, I told this gentleman I said you know, just talk to pilots.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: We'll have a work party, let's say at Doug Barr down there, and we'll get.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: We've had as many as 46 airplanes come in to Doug Barr, 49 actually that day and you know these people work their hindies off.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: We come back, we feed them a big lunch I like to make sure all these people are very well fed and then you just start talking and I learn more at those work parties talking to other pilots than you'll ever do at a course.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean it's and you'll get people like Dick Williams.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: He's coming to our aviation.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: We got to have a winter aviation banquet up here in February 15th at the lodge.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: And if you know Dick Williams, he's a gentleman who's flown everything from Super Cubs to Lear Jets.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: He worked for the Harrah's Lodge that used to own the Middle Fork Lodge and anyway, dick's got more stories and he's written three books that I'm aware of.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: And but, yeah, just find somebody with some experience, whether they're a lady, a man, a kid.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: If you've got that interest, pursue it, because the answer's there, the answer's really there.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: And I told this one young man or this gentleman last night that's Clint Clint.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: He wants to know how I chuck your head, how many shots I missed, because he had a bad day yesterday over here.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: Clint, you're screwing up my podcast, but uh, but anyway, uh, yeah, uh, I mean the answers are out there.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: Talk to folks like you.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: I mean guys are looking up to and what you do with this podcast is is phenomenal, you know.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: Well, I, I, I think you've got a good point, like you've got to talk to people, but you also need to.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: You need to go ahead and read that regulation because you know it is hard, but you, you can look at it, you can read it, and then you can ask somebody.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: But you, you can look at it, you can read it, and then you can ask somebody Um, but there's lots of people who are willing to help you.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: Even if you're just going down to your state game and, uh, fish and game office, there's going to be somebody in that building.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: I don't care what state you're in, there's going to be somebody in that building that will take the time out of their day to explain that to you.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: And explain that to you, and they're tickled to do it.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean again, I'm talking 24 year old 24 year and if you've got questions, ask.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: you know I've had questions that we couldn't figure out with the state game troops.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: We couldn't figure out, um with our district attorney, um, so we had to send it all the way up to the Department of Justice for the state to try to figure out if something was legal or not.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: So if you've got questions, ask them right, because some of this stuff is kind of complicated.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: But if you can come up with a novel question like that, people are going to sink their teeth into trying to figure out what the answer is.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree with you.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: I can remember back in Oregon State, you know, the profs back then were teaching all their wildlife students that the predators I'm talking coyotes, cougars and cats they killed the sick and the weak.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: I mean that was totally what they were teaching us and people still believe that.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately they do.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I've worked with Vic a lot, I mean, but they were so far wrong on that, but that's what they were teaching their biologists.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: And now I got a good.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you know Mike Slagle did his mountain goat study up here back in the 70s, worked for Idaho Fish and Game for years.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: I was at a meeting with him over in Grainville, I think.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: I read one of his books.
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: Do you write a book called a beast, the color of winter, or something like that Sounds right, yeah.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: But Mike was saying, bill, you won't believe what I'm doing.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: I go, what's that?
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: He says I'm putting on classes for Idaho fish and game biologists teaching them how to fish and how people hunt fish and how people hunt.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: I go say that again.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: He said these biologists have been to college, they've never fished, they've never hunted and now they're biologists in Lehigh County or wherever, and so I'm going to them telling them what their constituents are doing out there.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: These kids are computer people and I'm not much for computer modeling.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you're not on the ground seeing what's out there, I mean computer modeling can do you justice, but don't rely solely on that.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: That.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: Just that just irritates me to no end.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I call it spreadsheet, biology that's and uh, you're nicer than I am.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I I've gotten criticized by a biologist for saying that, but no, I do think you got to get out in the field a heck of a lot more than what folks are and then also reference the old timers and dig into the history and like find every resource that you can Like.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: You're talking about going out to the Dorrance Corrals and the education that you got doing that.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: I don't see anybody taking the time to do stuff like that.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, mostly wildlife biologists discredit ranchers and loggers and cattlemen or sheep herders who've been out there their whole lives.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: They're like well, you don't have a degree in this.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: Oh yes, they do.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: You don't fit into my Excel spreadsheet.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, they do.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: I can remember going into Mac Berkmeyer's place out here on Cro-Crick and Tommy sticking his head around a chair.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: I think he was nine years old.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: You're looking at this guy in a badge, you know?
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: Like what are you doing in our house?
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: You know, and Mac was a real source for me out in that country you gotta do it so I don't get lost.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: And then we had other conversations Jack, mclaren, jack and Marge.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what they dealt with the hunting public as good as any landowner I've ever known.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: Marge would call me up in the fall.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Give me the combination of their locks.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: They want me up there.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: You know it's a lot of work for these landowners to, in the fall, give me the combination of their locks, they want me up there.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: You know, uh, no, they, they.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: It's a lot of work for these landowners to accommodate our hunting public.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: It's brutal, it's absolutely brutal.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: There you go, uh yeah, and and there's a lot of bad experiences that happen and then landowners say you know what, it's not worth my time, it's not worth my time to answer phone calls for four months out of the year and have my cattle get out through gates that get left open and see your trash.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: And you know, this guy left a fire burning.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: And then they say no, and then you know the rest of the public is furious that they can't hunt a place that they used to be able to.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: It's like can you blame them?
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: Can you?
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: You really blame that rancher for saying no?
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: now I remember Jack McLaren telling me Bill, I'm going to have to charge these people $25 a rifle to come up Lightning Creek Because it takes me.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: I got to drag a cat down there, blade my road out and I said, jack, I said these guys they wouldn't have a qualm paying 25, they'll pay more than that, but he was, he felt bad right, wanting to charge him to help maintain that road.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: yeah, you know and uh, yeah, yeah, I wish I could have done a podcast with jack.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: He was a.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: He was a tanker in africa when those guys had, uh, a life expectancy that was about eight minutes long.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: Oh geez.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah Well, his dad, joe McLaren.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever heard about Joe.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: I was down working Lightning Creek Again, marge had given us the combinations.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: The locks Went up there after dark.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: I was going to camp up at one of the old cabins above the ranch there and I had a fish and wildlife gentleman with me and I could see lights on at the Lightning Creek Ranch in there and so we pulled in there.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to let him know I was up there, you know.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: And Joe came to the room.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: He had a friend of his down there with him.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: He said where are you boys going to camp?
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: I said I'm going to camp up the old cabin up there, another mile or so above the ranch.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: And he said you guys, just the two of you.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: I said yeah.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: He says well, hey, have you eaten dinner?
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: I said well, not yet, we're going to cook it up there.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: He said get in here.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: We got leftovers and we went into that house, cabin or whatever you call it, and they fed us a heck of a spread.
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: And then we started drinking whiskey and he said you boys are staying in the bunkhouse, you know.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: And uh, we drank whiskey till two o'clock in the morning and I learned more from joe mclaren about, I mean, I learned more about the old trails and stuff in that country down there.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: I said joe, I says why is your combination issue 1926?
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: How do you come up with these numbers?
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: He's always says that's the year I brought my bride off from Buckhorn.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: I just bought this homestead down here.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: And he says my idea was I was going to come down here and, you know, work it and then buy a few more and sell it.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: And he kind of looks at me and he says do you think it's time to sell?
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: Yet you know, and I mean he was a neat man.
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed that.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I mean he was a neat man he's.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed that.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, pretty cool.
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: Well, bill, we ran a little bit over time here, but I appreciate your appreciate your time and, uh, I love the stories.
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: I love the stories and now that trucker season is over you're gonna have to find something else to do with your life.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: My weight's going to go back up, all right, well, you better give Clint a call and let him know how it went.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I won't tell on you if you exaggerate.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: I appreciate your time, james, and what you do really do.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone who has taken the time out of their busy lives to write a review for the show and share it with their friends.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: I'm extremely proud of how intelligent, engaged and adventurous this audience is.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: Original music for the Six Ranch Podcast is written and performed by Justin Hay.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: Art for the Sixth Ranch podcast was created by John Chatelain and digitized by Celia Harlander.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening and we'll see you again next week.