Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Your Sustainable Investment Comfort Zone - Rebecca Kowalski

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Your Sustainable Investment Comfort Zone - Rebecca Kowalski · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry, so check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, Financial Planner Life community.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's me, Charlie, and today's episode is a special one.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: We're joined by Rebecca Kowalski, a powerhouse in sustainable finance.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: She's an individual with over 25 years in the industry, and we touch upon her career through power planning to being a one-woman band, where she's got a business which helps advisors implement more sustainability into their business.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: We touch upon the barriers faced, the real life impact the climate crisis has had, and advice for those looking to get into sustainable finance.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: Hope you enjoy this one.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's really quite special.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Good afternoon, Financial Planer Life listeners.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's me, Charlie Scott, back again to Gracie O'Rears.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a hot minute since I last jumped on.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: And when I say hot, I mean extremely hot.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: We had, you know, some record-breaking days that have passed recently, which I'm sure brings the conversation of the climate to the forefront of your mind as it does with mine.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: I read today that I think eight in ten people are now very concerned about the climate due to the recent heat waves.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: So today we've got a very topical conversation with Rebecca Kowalski.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, Rebecca.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: How are you doing?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm good, thank you.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I uh very excited to bring your conversation to the listeners of the Financial Planner Life today.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think you've got a very unique sort of story arc in terms of your career and how you've got to where you are now, and you know, some really interesting areas of just the life of yourself in financial planning, um, which align with the climate very strongly.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess it's you know, let's dive in a little bit to who Rebecca Kowalski is.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: Tell the podcast about yourself, share your story with the listeners.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, um, so I've worked in financial services for probably somewhere between 25 and 32 years.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm keeping it for eagle a long time a long time.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've kind of fell into financial services.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a planned career, as I think is the case for many people.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I did a degree in modern languages and I moved to Scotland just after I graduated with some other son who had a job here.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, then our first child came along rather uh sooner than expected, and I was just looking for any job that would pay a child mind, really, so that I could get out to work because I'd moved to a country where I didn't know anybody and have a lot of money.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that was that was how I ended up in the Scottish financial services industry.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, progressed from there, started off um just doing administration and a bank and passed my exams as quickly as I could and had grand designs to jump straight into um advising as quickly as I could and did manage to get a job for a large firm which had an excellent graduate trainee scheme for advisors.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, I just managed to get in before I was too old for the graduate trainee scheme, which was great.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then um, as I alluded to earlier, things haven't always gone quite according to the program for me.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: So just after I got that job and was doing really well actually on the training scheme as an advisor, I uh baby number two and then baby number three came along as well.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like in really rapid succession, like horrendously, unexpectedly.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um not horrendously, like you know, but just you know, from a career perspective, it wasn't the ideal planning.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so at that point I just somehow felt like something was telling me that it wasn't time for me to really progress in my career.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I now had three children under five.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so yeah, I'd kind of took a few months off and then decided I was gonna have to come back part-time for a while.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that was when I then progressed into paraplanning, which at that time not very many people even in financial services.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: Was paraplanning the name back then?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it was actually a friend of mine who I'd worked with um had left the advisor firm that we were both at and gone into uh being a kind of consultant for our insurance company.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think she was covering all these different accounts, and she'd heard from one of her accounts this this notion of a power planner, and she said, Somebody's told me they're looking for a power planner, that might suit you.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think I even knew what it was.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I turned up and yeah, yeah, it was fine.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: It worked perfectly for me at the time.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think that that particular company, the person who was kind of quite forward thinking and and you know, had heard of a power planner and so had recruited me, was that forward thinking that nine months after they decided they didn't want to be a financial advisor at all anymore and wound up the business.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: So then I was like, okay, has anybody else heard of power planning?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because I've I've got my children installed in a nursery in this area now and all the rest of it.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: But luckily, I think even though the actual name powerplanning was like still causing people to scratch their heads, the the notion of what you could add to the business, you know, it was attractive to people, I think, you know.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's mainly small firms that I was working for, or kind of small to medium size as a power planner.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just people who are not only advising but also directing and running the business, just you know, they really wanted a trustworthy pair of hands that they knew they could come in and kind of trust with getting right in there with the clients and thinking of the solutions and just being like a right-hand person, really, for me.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's how power planning always was.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a kind of copy and paste and order quotes kind of role, you know, it was always kind of getting right in and working very closely alongside the advisor and sharing, sharing that role.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then I did that for probably the best part of 18 years and different companies got all my exams, became chartered, won some awards along the way in paraplanning.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I just got to a stage where I'd kind of done it for so long and I felt like I'd got to the absolute top of it.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was managing other paraplanners as well, which just kind of added to the stress of it really, because you know, you're overseeing more things.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I just kind of I was just got to that point where I didn't know how to grow or kind of you know keep my interest up.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: I just felt I could do the job kind of asleep, really, or kind of with my hands tied behind my back, and it just wasn't exciting me.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um so at that point I switched into compliance just because it meant new things to learn and new challenges.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and also I was kind of working then, it was quite yeah, quite liked that actually, not only compliance, but becoming the TNC supervisor for the advisors.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um slightly controversial statement, but having been in power planning for so long and had my exams for so long, I've always quietly liked to think that um I could, you know, I knew as much and could do as much as the advisors could, you know.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was a bit refreshing to be their supervisor at that point.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was I was always a very nice supervisor, I don't think I was a scary one, you know, I was very understanding and encouraging and everything, but but it was it was yeah, it was a new set of skills and I enjoyed that.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So so that was the kind of that stage of my career.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then um 2018-19, I started getting interested in sustainable investing as a kind of sideline, just one little aspect of the many things that you need to know when you work in financial services.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't actually remember how that kind of evolved exactly from you know the the subject that you would occasionally read an article about if it pinged into your inbox to something that you literally can't get enough of and are kind of gobbling up every piece of information that you possibly can and trying to kind of push it forward.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was just a gradual process, and I think I think it evolved because my employers at the time were quite encouraging of that.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the more I talked to them about it, the more they were like, okay, we get that this is a kind of sounds like a really interesting new area of financial services, that it could be really attractive to the clients, that it could allow the firm to differentiate itself.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: So then managed to kind of find a fund manager that we could work with who was really aligned with our views and very kind of forward thinking.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then we kind of bounced off each other, really, and then ended up building this portfolio, which the company really got behind, and it all got really, really exciting.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So my daughter is also uh really, really uh it's her main driver as well, kind of climate activism and and you know, environmental uh crisis.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: That that's her well, she works in that field, you know.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: If you don't mind me asking, yeah, she's 26, 26, same age as me.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Same age as the cops, she likes to say, you know.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: 26 years of Jennifer, 26 years of cops as well, you know.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: She's hoping that she makes a bit more difference than the than the cops have done so.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: No, I um I think it's an interesting age to be in this world, 26, because we've grown up, you know, 10 years ago was when we would, you know, you everyone's in school at that age where you have to pick something to do.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure there's people listening who might be at that point of picking which avenue to go down.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: And when you get taught about the environment, when you're 16 and you're there like, wow, why did why is no one else really passionately like enraged about this?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: And since I've then obviously grown 10 years since I was 16, and you've got people like Greta Thunberg, you've got so many more youths, the strikes like you know, youth strikes for climate.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's a big, big conversation.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like you know, I've studied environmental science, so I've your daughter's a girl after my own heart.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: But I think you know, but we'll definitely dive into that story um sort of later on in the podcast because I think it's definitely I think it's really how I might have come across you actually on on LinkedIn was when you connect with people in the sort of sustainable finance space and you can see what they're sharing, there was a photo which you'd shared, and I think it was outside the courtrooms.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, that was a photo.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, very stressed.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it was, it was a really, I was like, wow, this is someone who, you know, anyone who's listening who speaks to me during my day job as a recruiter knows that I operate within Scotland, um, and that's my area.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: So when I saw someone who works in financial planning's child is a climate activist, and they've been arrested and they're in Scotland, and I thought this is this is something really rare in the in the industry that I've never seen, you know.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: I think in the industry, as far as I'm aware, the conversation has definitely changed, it's definitely heated up, as so has the planet, um, into really bringing attention into these issues.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's really why, you know, this space on the financial plan of life, and thank you so much for coming on and really diving into it, because people who are changing the industry and challenging things that have just always been done a certain way.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: Why is it done that way?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: Why can't it be done this way, which is slightly better?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: And challenging that status quo is how the positive change and the positive force can evolve from this.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I think that's really important.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I try and do that kind of at an acceptable rate within, you know, within my business.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't I don't think I can kind of just, you know, jump on a podcast or jump onto social media and say, you know, you've got to stop doing this now.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: You must know there's a certain kind of tone and a certain kind of pace that that that's you know that people can can deal with.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: But I just think, you know, I've worked in the industry a long time, I've gained a lot of experience, qualifications, you know, contacts and things like that.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: So if I can just use that to kind of still look like a normal financial services person, but just kind of tweak it and push it and adapt it a little bit and just on that, and I I think I don't know if it is because I have three children who are in their kind of 20s, but I just kind of enjoy young people's company and their way of thinking.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there is a risk for people who are in their 50s like me that they get very kind of comfortable and relaxed, and they just think, well, we we're fine now, we'll just see our days, you know, until retirement or or whatever, you know.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and for me, I'm I'm just not like that.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of like, what else can I fix before, you know?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've still got time, what else can I do today?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: kind of thing.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really nice to see young people doing well in the industry.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: I always, you know, I really have enjoyed mentoring some young people in in my career.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if if their voice, if their views and their different ways of doing things can be given a proper voice and really listen to, and you know, they get the opportunity to, you know, just not kind of tear everything down overnight, but inject some of their own thinking into it, and that that's a really healthy thing for the industry.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: So absolutely, absolutely.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: And and so from your journey of you know, power planning through into compliance, T's and C's manager, you started to gain more momentum in pursuing sustainable finance and looking at the force for goods that finance can really hold, and that's brought you to where you are now.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so just dive into where you are now in terms of your business.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, because I guess I've I've kind of I told you what I've been doing, but not really quite how I ended up where I am now.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I did I set up my business about a year ago and it kind of came from a kind of spontaneous emotional place, really.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: I am quite an emotional person, I guess I have to admit.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I've been working for my former employer for seven years and everything was going great, you know, great company, great bunch of people.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as I say, I've been getting more and more involved in helping them develop their sustainable investment proposition, and particularly during lockdown, because obviously everything went a little bit strange during lockdown, nobody quite knew how the working day was going to be and things like that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, right at the start, when everybody thought that maybe, you know, business as usual would just completely not function, um, we were all given projects to keep us busy while we were working from home.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and one of my colleagues and I launched a podcast.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: We were interviewing people about everything to do with sustainability, like people in the industry and people just kind of in science, academics, people with sustainable businesses, things like that.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then we started working on the notion to launch a brand new independent sustainable investment proposition that would sit alongside the company and thinking about all the ideas of what the service would look like, what the branding would be like.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really exciting stuff.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously during lockdown, you couldn't really do anything else, you couldn't go on holiday, you couldn't go out, you know.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that really became our work, our hobby, everything.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: There was an awful lot of you know, Zoom conversations going on about that at all hours.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and then the the business got taken over.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of well, like not unexpectedly, it kind of, you know, the the takeover was planned, but there was a change of direction at that point.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So the sustainable proposition was was, you know, kind of put on the back burner, really, kind of dampened down quite a lot.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, after all the kind of time that had been invested in it for all hours, you know, weekends and everything over lockdown, I just wasn't ready to kind of to rein it in, really, you know, and to kind of remove focus and energy from it.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: So at that point, I just thought, right, okay, how do I take what I've learned and you know, the kind of development and the skills and the interest that I have in this area now and put that to good use, you know, I can't just switch it off, it's not possible.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, how can I find a way of staying in financial services, making use of my experience, but you know, shining that light onto sustainable investing as much as I possibly can and and and being worthwhile.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think the main thing you want to do really is you want to use everything that you've learned and actually apply it so that it achieves something, you know, whether it's not so much whether it's for my own benefit, but just that somebody appreciates it and it and it kind of makes a difference, you know, whether it's clients who end up getting access to a portfolio that they wouldn't have before, or a business that feels confident to actually embrace doing that kind of investment and they didn't feel they had the skills or the knowledge before, just you know, anything to feel that you've actually done your bit and achieved something, you know.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: So and in terms of the business at the moment, um overstory is the name.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so I I wanted to ask what was the reasoning for that name?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because I love obviously ecologically speaking, you do have those layers of a forest.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: You've got the understory, you've got all the different canopy layers, and then the overstory is the outermost layer, if I'm correct, isn't it, of a forest.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love I love that you know what it means.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: That really makes me happy.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, somebody once told me, was it I spoke to somebody about the name once and they were like, oh, I love that name, I love that name, but they didn't know exact that it meant, you know, the kind of canopy of the forest.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: They just thought it was great because it had the word story in it, and it's about telling a story from a marketing point of view, kind of thing.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Well, yeah, fair enough.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, there is another meaning to it as well.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, there is a bit of a story to the name of a story, actually.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um when when we were thinking of a a brand for my former employer, sustainable investment proposition, we had a list of about 20 different names.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And what, you know, I've sent out surveys to all my friends to which one of these names do you like?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if anybody else wants a name for a sustainable investment, we've got another 19, you know.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um what we did find is that we couldn't find one single name that consistently everybody liked, you know, we'd kind of got it down to kind of, oh, so women of a certain age tend to like this one, and you know, but we couldn't find one that was like the Eureka moment.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't suppose that exists really, you know.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I just suppose there's any brand name that everybody instantly goes, oh well, that's just what I would have chosen.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's fantastic.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So so we got to the point where choosing a name was the most problematic thing, you know.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: It was like you were lying in bed at night trying to think of this name that just captured everything that you were dreaming about and and envisaging.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it's actually my husband who who came up with it in the end out of sheer desperation.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: He came home from work one night and like, what are you looking grumpy about?
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I still can't think of a name in my business.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And he picked up this book that was like on the desk next and said, Well, name it after this book.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the book Overstory in the minute that because he'd read that and and I said, right, okay, well, let me read the book first, let me check if it's uh appropriate for me to name my business after it.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and it is the most appropriate book to name a an environmentally focused business on, you know.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's a it's a fantastic book.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about trees, it's all about people who have relationships with trees, it's like a series of short stories of all these different people who somehow a particular tree is really relevant in their life, and then later on in the book they all kind of come together because they all join this kind of environmental action group and try and kind of save the trees that are being cut down and that.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's but it's it's a brilliant book, it's full of really great quotes and it really makes you think.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it's about people who are really prepared to kind of change their lives and put nature first.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I I haven't done anything as radical as anybody in that book has, but I think I've done a little bit of something along those lines, you know, yeah, um, by setting up the business, by um, you know, kind of reducing my my hours, you know, taking a cut in salary and you know, cutting like commuting, all that kind of thing.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've definitely kind of reduced my own carbon footprint and also kind of created some positive impact as well, you know.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's um impact of a business is something which, you know, the financial planner life is is home at the at Recruit UK, which is where I work.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: And we've recently had to go through the process of B Corp.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we've hit submit on our application, so really fingers crossed, it will probably come through in the next six months.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: But to actually look at your business and the impact you can have, obviously, you know, in the industry you get ESG thrown around a lot.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, look at your environment, your social, your governance, but it kind of goes beyond that, you know, you it having the G at the end, um, it should some, I think I've heard people say it should be at the beginning, looking at the governance because that relates to the social and that then falls into the environmental and really looking at the impact of your business.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, there was a few companies going through the process with us as a company, and it was individuals like yourself, where it's you know, a one-man band, one woman band who really has to try and grow this up organically.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then you get businesses who, you know, I know Coots Bank is B Corp.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: Think I can't even imagine the process they had to go through, looking at everything and reassessing the impact of that.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: So props to props to Coots for putting that fine tooth comb through the business.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so with overstory, then in a nutshell, try and just to the listeners what it is that you provide as a service.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well it is it is quite varied up till now.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just coming up to a year as I said earlier and I am, you know, one of my projects when I cross that that first year's point is I'm going to kind of reflect and review and maybe try and kind of focus it a bit more because I've been doing so many different things that it is quite it's quite difficult to kind of scale it and to kind of you know to be consistent and I'm learning one thing one week and another thing the next week.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: But but basically the things I've been doing so far is I guess there's a little bit of kind of hands-on kind of client consultancy work.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's I guess the main part of it really then there's been a lot of kind of advocacy and education work.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean you know I write a lot of articles and I'm on social media a lot just trying to kind of keep the message out there and get people thinking about the issues.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then also I'm just kind of trying to improve how sustainable investment is done in financial services a whole really I suppose I mean obviously I'm only one person there's a limit to what you can do but the more conversations I've been having the connections I've been making the kind of opportunities are opening up now to get involved in some really interesting projects so kind of you know writing educational materials for advisors and training and things like that.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: So going forward there'll probably be more of that.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: The clients that I've been working with um they've all been very different.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they've all come to me you know saying I need some help with my sustainable investing how do I get started on it and you know their their problems or their their kind of hurdles that they want to remove have been very different for every single one of them.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know so it's been everything from helping them to pick what type of funds they might want to use and how they explain them to clients to just tell me how to have a conversation about this stuff.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know where to start I don't know what I know you know what I can get away with knowing and not knowing and you know um one or two of my larger clients it's kind of I guess I'm going on the journey with them and it kind of like it's a monthly retainer type arrangement so I'm helping them start from scratch and then build up a sustainable proposition over an amount of time which is where it gets kind of tricky really because there's there's a a wide variety of aspects to look at you know and to I think to do it really well you have to be a bit like a B coke process and consider it through all aspects of your business you know how how do you relate this to your clients how do you get your staff on board and excited about it how do you make sure you've got the right resources and training you know it's a it's not something you can just pick a portfolio off a shelf and go there I've done that now that's my sustainable proposition that you you know it ticks a box that's what that does but it doesn't really make it come to life you know so yeah no a hundred percent I think with the environmental things as well is ticking ticking of a box in in some ways is a great way to look at it but also it's not as simple as that tick just ticking box it's something where it's critical it needs the conversation there's so much to talk about and once you really dive into it and I'm sure particularly within the world of investments and you actually start looking at all the different portfolios that you can build together it becomes a very convoluted complex topic.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you you must almost guide people through the noise because there is so much noise on socials like particularly LinkedIn there's a lot of I guess people ticking that box for their own marketing you know to put out some article about this and an article about that but to really help educate individuals because you've been in the industry you know you've been within financial planning you've lived you've walked in the shoes of people who have you know put together the suitability reports so to be able to then share the knowledge that you've pursued yourself and tie that up with how it's relative to them is a really useful resource.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess you know climate can sometimes be a contentious topic.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: I've definitely butted heads with my own dads and my stepdad about I'm pretty sure my stepdad bless his heart said oh by the time it gets to being a problem I won't be here and I'm like okay what about what about the next generation?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: And have you come up against any barriers like that within your conversations not necessarily with clients but just generally in terms of trying to put the message out there that you've come across much much friction I well I think I think I have the same kind of conversations with myself the same worries about this that anybody who is concerned about climate change and the environment has, you know, to all of us who care about this worry about it and think about how we're going to get everybody else engaged.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if it comes with a certain kind of age that I'm kind of you know as you get older I think you you get a little bit more understanding and a bit more patient with people you know whereas like when you're younger you're kind of like you know I see it with my daughter you want change and you want change now the people who who don't get it you know they're kind of like the the enemy and you know it's just that natural thing with teenagers fighting against their parents and stuff like that.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And as you get older you get a little bit more kind of okay let's think about this.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: How can we approach it?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's try and walk in their shoes you know um because it's not just in in my work but just kind of conversations I have with people all around me I sometimes think you know why are they all kind of so interested in what they watched on telly last night and you know nobody's that interested in in this you know and it but then you just have to understand I think that until you kind of get into this space that you're in until you've got that realization you are in a kind of different world it's like two kind of worlds walking alongside each other and then as soon as you kind of open up the lid and you start getting concerned about the crisis and the more you find out about it the more concerned you get but you just it I I don't think anybody has the answer yet because if we had the answer we wouldn't have the problem of how to get everybody on board with with taking action.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very much of the opinion kind of remembering where I was like 20 years ago when my kids were small that when you're a parent you've got young children, yes, you should be really really worried because you want you know your children's future to be secure but at the same time you're just running around trying to make sure that their shoes fit and they've eaten their vegetables and they've done their homework and they make it to brown is on time and you know I I wasn't really you're focusing on thinking about world issues when I was at that stage of my life you know so I kind of feel like those of us that have some capacity to put more time and thought into it have to step up and do that, you know, and just wait wait for our moment you know so so I I I know that if I kind of went on and on at the average person about climate change as much as I could, they'd probably not want to hang out with me anymore.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know yeah you have to choose your moment and you have to kind of um you know every now and then kind of treat it put a bit of banter into the conversation or something and then you know every now and then you might get a chance to kind of just chip in the conversation with something that's a bit more meaningful you know but um yeah it's it's quite a difficult one.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I I I don't kind of I don't approach my professional work with the view that I can convert everybody into a climate activist who wants to kind of help solve world hunger and things like that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I'm kind of realistic about the human condition and um you know we we are all a little bit you know obsessed with ourselves and you know what we're doing today and tomorrow and don't think about the bigger picture.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really maybe have time to do that all the time.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: I see my role is trying to encourage everybody no matter what makes them want to do something sustainable.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know what that no matter what their motivation is and how hard and fast they want to go, if you can make them go a bit harder and a bit faster and you know whether they're doing it from really kind of moral reasons or if they're doing it because they think it's a another source of kind of income for their business I I still want them to do it.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: I still want to be part of that for me yeah that that's that's kind of the approach that I've chosen to take you know I mean in two years I might change my mind and go and join the the people protesting on the motorway who knows but right that that's where I think I can add the most value no absolutely I I love that approach as well it's a a huge credit to your emotional intelligence on it and really being able to see the individuals before you and understand that different perspectives you know one thing I remember studying um through my degree with environmental science is it's a multidisciplinary issue climate crisis.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's not just for the biologists and the geologists and you know the psychologists and the sociologists it's also for the politics and the economy and finance and it's absolutely everything can be involved within that.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: And whilst you know you said there when you have the ability to use your time for this matter, you know, there could be somebody listening who might think I just don't have the time for that because like you said you could be raising a family you could be starting a business from scratch and everyone has a different perspective that they're coming from which doesn't necessarily have the climate crisis at the front of their front of their mind because they could be thinking of how am I putting food on the table tonight?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: How am I you know going to pay for the rent next month particularly in the world we live in at the moment with the you know climate crisis and a cost of living crisis I think it's very easy to get caught up in the noise and I think having an individual like yourself where you recognize it is in a way privilege and I think I recognize my own privilege in being able to sit here and talk about this with you is that we are in a position to be able to you know champion and raise awareness.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: And you never know something that we discussed today could spark an idea it could inspire somebody who's maybe sat looking to get into you know financial planning and things I'm gonna go down the sustainable route or somebody could be sat there going, oh I really want to reassess what our sustainable proposition is because there is a time on this you know there is a time on the climate crisis and it's so easy to get anxious about it.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: But I really think it's about empowering people and showing them that you know anything is possible.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know at some point COVID felt like it was a nightmare that we were never going to escape and it was very all-encompassing.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: We created you know all sorts of measures and implements and the society is pretty much back to a new version of what it was before and I do genuinely believe you know they've got an enzyme that they've created that eats plastic you know that there's people there are scientists working behind this and I think within finance that cog is turning now and I think for you as well is through your career of financial planning how has the conversation changed you know 20 years ago were people was it even on people's lips you know were people actually discussing oh you know the planet's got really warm and the ice caps might melt no I mean from from memory I think the first the you got the occasional client who was ethical you know so you'd have religious clients who wanted to exclude things and you know it was kind of clear from everything about their lifestyles that they would want to kind of match their investments to that but they were yeah very very few and far between and and the options available to them were were very very limited you know so the industry has developed so much I mean it's still developing but even you know I would say only in the last two years really that you can really properly across all aspects of your portfolio properly diversify it and have different strategies and different asset classes that are thinking about sustainability as a factor you know that that's that gives us great opportunity because you know one of the things that ever since with my former employer we introduced the sustainable option was that we wanted to make sure that the clients who chose that would not in any way disadvantaged over clients who didn't you know so they they didn't have to accept more risk or pay higher costs or move to a different product you know that that that they had that choice and that it was a level playing field apart from the fact that they wanted to choose um to kind of aim towards a different kind of future with their portfolio I suppose you know because I mean everything that we invest in is is long term and is is for the future but it's just kind of imagining what that future's going to be like basically you know which yeah which vision of a future do you want to invest in you know so so yeah um but I I I still think that as much as you know there are all these surveys coming out saying you know 70% of clients want to invest sustainably you know the numbers differ but the I still think that the majority of clients don't yet have the confidence to come into a room and see a financial advisor and say I want this you know they're still waiting to be told what they can have and and I think that's you know that's where the advisors who really want to take this seriously can kind of scale up in that area.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be that hard you know you just have to be honest with your clients tell them that you that this is a new area for you that it's changing all the time that none of us can be experts in all aspects of it but just kind of have an engaged conversation find out what they know you know because increasingly I think a lot of clients are going to be coming across sustainability in other walks of their life.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you know they might be able to educate you on one aspect of it you know they might be experts on I don't know renewable energy or fast fashion or something like that and they can teach you more than you know on that aspect of the portfolio but your your role is still to tell them how that fits into their overall investment framework and their risk and their financial planning and things like that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it it can create a more equal conversation between advisors and clients which I think is a great thing.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think um one of the things that sustainable investing kind of sheds a light on really is the whole dynamic between advisors and clients and and financial services really as a whole you know like the terrible habits we have of speaking in a language that clients don't understand you know and the more that we can try and address that across the board as part of the sustainable investment exercise the better um which you know it fits in very well with the the consumer duty paper that the FCA's brought out I think you know if you if you read that you can really apply some of the the kind of expectations that that's placing on advisors that the kind of doing sustainable sustainable investing well will really fulfill consumer duty expectations you know so so I think it you know hopefully it's a sign.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know the SCA actually seems really on board with climate change which is which is quite refreshing you know people see the FCA as an organization that makes things more difficult you know sometimes it it's necessary that it does that but I do actually think it is really trying to enable sustainable investment you know so maybe taking a little bit longer but that's just the nature of a complex situation I suppose I mean absolutely every business in the world you know particularly in in the UK every single business is going to have to look at what they're doing.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: No one's going to be able to escape it.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: Even here as a recruitment company we don't have a supply chain we don't have massive ongoing behind the scene processes.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: We talk to people we talk to our clients and that's it but still within that we have to address what we're doing and I think there's a few you know financial planning firms there are a few you know I see some popping up and being B Corp.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot more into the impact investing there's a lot more attention into what your pensions can do.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the awareness from a client perspective is definitely being raised because the conversation is everywhere particularly even in the news with the heat waves at the moment people probably didn't think the effects of climate change were going to land on our shores as soon as they did but the fires that happened down in Kent a few weeks ago really you know awful like awful neat thing to see on the news I was away in Barcelona and I was like wow you know the UK's burning which is kind of crazy to imagine that it would happen now.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's almost like watching the day after tomorrow you know it's it's on our doorstep and it's here and acting as you know we should have been talking about this a lot sooner.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: But I guess as well you know working in this side of the industry and looking at sustainability it can get a bit dark sometimes I find because you are talking about it's you know it's not the end of the world but you you're pushing for this change to happen.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: And do you ever find that it you know in terms of a mental health perspective of your job how how does it impact on your mental health do you find because climate anxiety is a thing you know it is it I know absolutely yeah I mean I see it very firsthand in in my daughter you know the route that she's chosen to take with her life is is not an easy choice.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't think she I don't know if if at some point she might be able to make the choice to kind of take some of that pressure off of herself and not feel personally obliged to try and kind of fix the world's problems.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: But um for me I think because I've kind of I've aligned this interest of mine and this kind of mission if you want to call it that of mine to my work yeah and I see it as a professional opportunity and a professional challenge and really exciting like it's made financial services much more exciting for me than it ever has been before is pretty positive for me.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the only thing that stresses me really is is trying to keep on top of it all because I'm a bit of a perfectionist.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: I like to think I want to kind of be a total expert in this but there's just not enough hours in the day really and because it's just me by myself I think oh God if I had an assistant and I could get them to go and do that bit, you know, but um so that's kind of what stresses me out but but yeah it does it does get dark.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you know my daughter has struggled with it you know I think it can be quite isolating you know she she now she does have friends that very close group of friends they're all very supportive each other who who she's met through her environmental activities but before that you know she'd she'd had to leave jobs because she didn't feel that she was kind of you know in line with the rest of the people in the office she had a relationship breakup because her partner thought she was taking it too seriously so it's it is tough.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: It does isolate you from from people if you if you take it seriously enough and she she has genuinely felt for a long time that this is you know that that dark place that you refer to she she does literally you know that dark place does keep her awake at night you know I mean I I used to joke about it with her because she'd be reading some of these kind of climate books you know the science that's telling you about all the worst case scenarios what's going to happen uh we were coming back from a a night out on a on a Glasgow bus one night she she got one of the climate change books and started reading you know the 50 worst worst deaths as a result of climate change or something like that.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like Jennifer it's 11 o'clock on a on a Glasgow bus on a on a Friday night people don't really want to give it a break read the room read the bus yeah but but yeah she um she does take it quite hard.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah I do know that climate anxiety is is a reality but I guess I'm still in that place where I'm like okay we've got a problem what can we do to fix it you know I'm not kind of in that place where I'm like either I want to just run away from it and give up or I I you know I'm despairing that nothing can be done you know no definitely and would you say as well with your daughter was she a big inspiration into stepping into the side of the industry do you feel you know as the financial planner life we try to think of every area of someone's life within financial planning and that includes family that includes who we are when we're not you know standing forward in the professional space we are and I think you know to have a parent who would shift their career into being in the sustainable avenue is it must be a comfort to her for sure and it must be quite inspiring on both levels to be like wow look at my mum go and also be like you know look at my daughter go.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I sometimes wonder I sometimes wonder if she thinks you know can this isn't this isn't my subject mum back off but it's like uh she she's been a really mad Taylor Swift fan all her life and when she first started loving Taylor Swift I used to get really annoyed at the amount of money I had to spend on concert tickets and merchandise but then eventually I kind of caught on to and started going to the concerts with her and I'm like she's just gonna think that I just eventually got a copy everything that she does but but no I think it was a combination really I mean there was there's two things there's one that I just love a project you know in financial services all my life I've loved to get my teeth into the really big project so you know over the years you know it's been like the how to give good defined benefit transfer advice you know you can't get much more complicated than that that was one thing that I got really engrossed in and then before that there was maybe when you know they changed all the pensions legislation or they changed you know they brought in a whole new load of compliance rules and I like a kind of project to really plow into all that stuff and figure out how to roll it out and things like that.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: So so I like it for that reason because there is just Much to know about it and so much to teach other people about and things.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I've always been financial services for my kids, whether it's to pay their nursery fees, whether it's to give them money to spend, you know, that's always the reason why I've worked in financial services.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, now that they're older and they don't, you know, I'm sure they'd probably take all my money if I let them, but you know, they've got their own jobs now.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: They don't, they're not as financially dependent on me.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: What how else can I help them?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and when my daughter turns around to me and says, you know, and I always thought she'd be a fantastic mum because she's that kind of a girl, Mum.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I want to have kids now because I don't think it would be a fit place to bring them into.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking of, you know, maybe being a granny one day and realizing, oh well, actually, maybe that's not a choice I have now.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you've got to think about what else you can do, you know.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: No, definitely.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I think, you know, there's a lot of people within the industry where we speak, you know, you speak to people about their lives and you talk about future planning and you think about grandkids and the way life will go.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it just goes to show that already individuals are not going to take that sort of typical route because of climate, because of their concerns with the climate.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that just brings more power into being able to help where we can, being able to campaign and speak loud and take up space and inspire and share the science and really lift up the message.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_03: Because if we can just help this alleviate this a little bit more, you never know what's going to happen, where we could be in 10 years' time.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: One question I did definitely want to ask is there are so many people that listen on this podcast, and it really ranges from individuals who, you know, might have a power planner who has been in the industry for 20 years and was like, oh yes, I know the woes of being a power planning manager, like you said.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_03: But we also have people who listen who might not even, they might be just doing their first RO exam for their level four diploma.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: And what would you give as advice for somebody who was looking to get into the industry but wants to, or maybe wants to step into the sustainable side of the industry?
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, at the moment, probably the fund management side has more avenues.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that may change because advisors will start integrating sustainability more into their businesses, and particularly, you know, as FCA regulation comes out along those lines.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: At the moment, there's probably more options in the in the fund management side because obviously the fund managers are, you know, even the ones who aren't necessarily putting a sustainable badge, you know, everybody's doing an ESG to some extent behind behind the scenes.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it just depends on whether that attracts you, um, you know, that more kind of analytical research type work, or if you know, you do prefer more kind of being among people, client-facing that kind of thing.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think there will be a great need for client-facing skills in the sustainability space.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, personally, I quite like the idea of, you know, if you've got a young person in the office who's kind of motivated about climate change or any kind of sustainable issues, social issues, and they're training, you know, aiming to be an advisor at some point, get them into the meeting to do the conversation about the sustainable piece.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the advisor can supervise it and still, you know, still top it and tail it to make sure it's compliant and everything.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: But there's nothing, the the but the the single best ingredient for doing sustainability well is enthusiasm, you know.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um when I at my previous employers they'd opposedly drag me into meetings, even though it wasn't a an official client-facing role, just to chat about our sustainable investment portfolios, and I'd I'd kind of go over 15 minutes and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're great.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you know, the the client and the advisor would go, oh my goodness, that was, you know, I've never heard anybody talk about anything so enthusiastically before.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and it it, you know, people are not immune to that, you know, they they pick up on it, you know.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so that's that's one thing.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, if whatever route you get into, like my experience over the years for any way of advancing yourself and kind of getting yourself noticed or taken seriously is to pick a subject that you're really enthusiastic about, whether that be sustainability or something else, and just go out of your way to make yourself the expert in the office on it, because people will soon notice that, and then just kind of start talking about it and you know, answering the questions or giving the the tips that nobody else can give, and and you know, it it gets your notice, whether it means you get a promotion or a pay rise or just the part on the back, but it's definitely the the best way, I think, to kind of differentiate yourself, you know, obviously you've got past exams as well, but but you know, just yeah, enthusiasm and and that kind of dedication to a subject so that you become the real expert on it is definitely the way to go, I would say.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for that.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: I I agree.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_03: It's pull up a chair to the table for yourself, create that space for yourself.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think what you said there, enthusiasm and becoming an expert, it brings so much more sort of tangible value to what you're giving.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and yeah, no, definitely, definitely good advice there.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think to anyone listening as well, if you've got any questions about sustainability, or you can find both, you know, Rebecca and myself on LinkedIn.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, do reach out, particularly if you found something in this episode really helpful.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, that will round up our episode for today, Rebecca.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm I'm so grateful for you coming on here, sharing your message, sharing your mission, giving nuggets of wisdom to the listeners today.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I just I think it's always great when people just speak into the space of sustainability and and challenge that status quo and you know push push for change because this is something which can't wait.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: It can't wait.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um, thank you for speaking to today.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'll speak to you all soon, Financial Planner Life.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much, and bye.