Latest / Finding God at Work / 18: Responding to Questions: Hell

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18: Responding to Questions: Hell · Finding God at Work

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi, I'm Chris.
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This is Finding God at Work.
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Our current series is Gentle Witnesses, sharing the
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good news at work in a way that
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actually makes sense.
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We've gotten to the point in our five
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thresholds of faith following this model from Don
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Everts and Doug Schaupp from InterVarsity Christian Fellowship
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of seeking.
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When people are seeking after God, this is
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often a relatively short-term experience where people
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are taking a few weeks, a few months
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to figure out what they really believe when
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they've gotten to a crisis point where they
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want to get to a point of resolution,
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choose to follow Jesus or not, and they're
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exploring things, they're trying to get answers.
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So we've looked at that from a few
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different angles.
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One angle I want to look at it
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from today is intellectual questions.
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And so we've touched on this a little
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bit in a previous episode.
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I suggested, hey, if you don't have a
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super strong intellectual bent and the person, maybe
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a coworker really does, and they're asking a
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lot of questions you don't know how to
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answer, like find a nerdy Christian friend and
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let the nerds talk to each other.
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So I think that could be helpful.
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But I think it can also be helpful
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for all of us to be equipped, at
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least in some of the basics, of how
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do we think about sort of those key
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questions that people often ask that can be
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tripping points on their way towards faith.
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So sometimes this is called apologetics.
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Sometimes it can be called like faith and
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reason.
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I tend not to use the word apologetics
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because some people who use that word seem
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to think that it's all about winning.
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Right.
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And as we've said before, the point of
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sharing the good news is not winning.
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It's not like we're in a contest.
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It's not like we're trying to put one
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over on people or have some sort of
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power move where we prove that we're right
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and they're wrong.
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Being gentle witnesses is about meeting people where
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they're at.
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So, again, that's why we're talking about these
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intellectual questions at the seeking stage when somebody
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actually wants answers, when they're actually wrestling with
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questions.
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That's the point at which we can help
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them find answers that are helpful.
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We're not trying to prove something to a
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skeptic who has no desire to be proven
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wrong, like that is just it's just the
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wrong way to think about all this stuff.
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And I think that the teaching of Jesus
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actually can guide us in this regard.
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So let's go to Matthew.
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Maybe one of Jesus is kind of strange
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saying we talked about parables earlier and how
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Jesus uses these images and these metaphors and
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build a house that people can live inside
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of as they consider what the kingdom of
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God is like.
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And his disciples ask him, this is Matthew
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chapter 13, verse 10.
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Why do you speak to the people in
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parables?
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Jesus replied, because the knowledge of the secrets
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of the kingdom of heaven has been given
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to you, but not to them.
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Whoever has will be given more and they
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will have an abundance.
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Whoever does not have even what they have
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will be taken from them.
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OK, well, that's a that's like a non
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egalitarian statement, right?
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We're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, why do
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the rich get richer and the poor get
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poorer?
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Why do the haves get even more and
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the have nots get even less?
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Like, what is Jesus talking about?
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Like, why would God do it that way?
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But as we think about the teaching of
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Jesus as a whole, Jesus is always aiming
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for the heart.
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He's always trying to get at what is
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somebody's real heart condition?
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Are they open to God or are they
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closed to God?
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Are they allowing God to make the tree
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good, as he says in one passage, or
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are they a bad tree that's going to
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bear bad fruit?
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And this goes hand in hand with his
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approach for what kind of answers he's willing
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to give people when they ask him questions.
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And a later passage in Matthew actually illustrates
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this.
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So Jesus squares off with the chief priests
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and the elders when he's in Jerusalem in
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his final week leading up to his crucifixion.
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So this is Matthew chapter 21, starting in
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verse 23.
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Jesus entered the temple courts and while he
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was teaching the chief priests and the elders
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of the people came to him.
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By what authority are you doing these things?
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They asked.
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And who gave you this authority?
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OK, let's pause there.
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They're asking a question.
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It's a very straightforward question.
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By what authority is Jesus doing these things?
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Now, there is a correct answer to this
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question.
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What's the correct answer?
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Jesus is doing these things by the authority
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of his father, right?
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The father sent the son.
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Jesus is acting in the father's name.
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He's acting in the power of God.
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And so there's not like a super difficult
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to understand complex answer here.
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It's just like it's it's divine authority.
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That's the authority that Jesus is using.
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And Jesus could have just said that.
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But what does Jesus do?
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Jesus doesn't just give them a straightforward answer.
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He gives them a question.
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Jesus replied, I will also ask you one
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question.
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If you answer me, I will tell you
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by what authority I am doing these things.
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John's baptism.
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Where did it come from?
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Was it from heaven or of human origin?
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They discussed it among themselves and said, if
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we say from heaven, he will ask, then
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why didn't you believe him?
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But if we say of human origin, we
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are afraid of the people, for they all
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hold that John was a prophet.
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So they answered Jesus, we don't know.
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Then he said, neither will I tell you
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by what authority I am doing these things.
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OK, now this is kind of one of
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those like Jesus gotcha moments in the gospels,
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right?
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He's squaring off the religious authorities and there's
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kind of a contest and Jesus wins.
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But again, what what is Jesus about?
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Jesus doesn't really care about winning.
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That's not the point.
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What is Jesus doing?
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He's pointing to their heart.
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He's saying, why are you asking this question?
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Are you asking this question because you really
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want to believe?
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I don't think so.
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I don't think you're asking this question because
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you really want to believe.
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So let me ask you a question.
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John the Baptist, what about him?
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And then that question reveals their hearts, that
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they're not actually dealing in good faith, they're
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not actually seeking God and trying to understand
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whatever God is doing.
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They're playing a political game where they're trying
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to get the best of Jesus.
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And so Jesus reveals that, that their question
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is not even asked in good faith.
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And he is like, look, if you're not
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even asking this question in good faith, why
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should I answer it?
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OK, so similarly, we can follow Jesus' lead
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here.
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We do not need to win arguments with
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people who are not seeking.
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But if somebody is seeking, if somebody is
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asking a question in good faith, that's the
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time when an answer can be really helpful.
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Whoever has will be given more and they
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will have an abundance.
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That's our prayer for our friends, for our
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co-workers, for others we're talking with, is
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that those who are beginning to seek will
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have more and that they will have an
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abundance that they will enter into the kingdom
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of God.
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So how can we help when people do
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have these questions?
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I want to look at how we frame
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the idea of questions and intellectual objections to
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faith in the first place.
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So this might be like a strange analogy,
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but go with me here.
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What if somebody said to you, did you
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know that Abraham Lincoln was president of the
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United States?
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Like if it was like a five year
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old, then you might be like, yeah, great,
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I'm glad you learned that fact.
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But it was like an adult human being.
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You'd be like, yes, I did know that.
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Did you not know that?
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Right?
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It's like, this is old news at this
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point, like, yes, Abraham Lincoln was president.
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OK, great.
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Now, if somebody said something more interesting, like,
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did you know that Abraham Lincoln sometimes consulted
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like occult practices and was involved in seances?
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People might be like, I have no idea.
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And you're like, yeah, so there's some weird
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stuff in Lincoln's history.
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OK, now suddenly it's interesting.
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It's like the less well-known stuff.
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When we think about people's questions about Christianity,
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sometimes it feels like we have this like
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Jesus for president attitude, right?
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Like, I just got to get this person
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to believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
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So all of their questions and all of
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their objections are just like problems to solve.
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And if we can just solve every problem,
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then they'll be left with the punch line
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like Jesus is president.
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Jesus is the Messiah.
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Yes.
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OK, good.
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And I just think, OK, that's that's the
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wrong way of framing it, right?
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Like, we don't want the conclusion to be
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like, yay, Jesus, Jesus is Messiah, although obviously
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we do believe that we want people to
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enter into the kingdom of God where Jesus
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is a Messiah, right?
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We want people to get to know the
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texture of Jesus's teaching and the fullness of
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his life and become his disciples.
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And so that's kind of like the, you
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know, the more obscure thing, like, hey, here's
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all these little nitty gritty things about Abraham
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Lincoln that you didn't know.
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It's not just that he's president, but that
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he, you know, had a complex spiritual life
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and various things like that with Jesus.
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It's like, OK, yes, Jesus is Messiah, but
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also he has all of these rich teachings
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that help us understand what it means to
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enter into life in the kingdom of God,
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what it means to repent of our sins
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and receive forgiveness, what it means to become
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his disciples and follow him in every category
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and an instance of life.
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OK, so the questions that people are asking
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about faith are themselves opportunities to go deeper
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in showing people how beautiful Jesus is.
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These are not problems that we just want
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to go away, that we somehow want to
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run away from or get other people to
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run away from or somehow tie up in
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a meat bow so that they go away.
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Every question that somebody brings to the table
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about faith is an opportunity for the beauty
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of Jesus to become even more detailed and
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more clear in their mind's eye.
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Whoever has will be given more.
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For the length of this episode, I just
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want to use one objection that people bring
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and show how the beauty of Jesus becomes
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clearer as we press into the subjection or
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this question.
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And that's the question of hell.
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This is a really uncomfortable question, even using
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the word hell in any serious way can
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often put people on edge like, oh, you
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believe in hell?
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Like, what are you, some medieval religious fanatic?
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It's an uncomfortable conversation to press into hell.
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And so when somebody gets to the seeking
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stage where they're really trying to take Jesus
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seriously, really considering what it might mean to
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follow him, this might be a question that
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they ask where they go, now, wait a
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minute, wait a minute.
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Am I signing up to have to believe
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in hell?
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Like, what what's that about?
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And so we could be scared about this
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and get anxious about this and think, like,
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how the heck am I going to explain
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that, like, hell really is just and God
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really is good to somebody else?
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And again, that's kind of this like problematizing
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view, like this is somehow a barrier, this
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is somehow something that we just need to
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get rid of.
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But what if we thought about it instead
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of Jesus himself can be clearer, be more
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visible as we think about this teaching?
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Because Jesus himself is actually the primary source
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of our doctrine of hell, right?
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There's statements about God's wrath in the Hebrew
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scriptures and later in the epistles and in
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the book of Revelation.
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But Jesus himself is the one who often
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speaks about the judgment of God.
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And it's really interesting the way that he
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does that.
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When Jesus teaches about what we might call
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hell, he's almost always giving a teaching about
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people's hearts.
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And this is a very different starting place
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for the conversation than what's in most people's
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imagination, right?
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Whatever people are drawing on when they hear
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the word hell, sometimes it's Hollywood depictions of
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religious medieval settings, sometimes it's stuff they heard
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in their church when they were a kid,
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sometimes it's stuff from, you know, willy-nilly
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things that float around in the cultural ether.
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But most people, when they hear the word
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hell, the first thing they're not thinking is,
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wow, yeah, that teaching that helps us clarify
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the nature of the human heart, right?
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Like, that's not that's not what people are
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doing.
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They're thinking like, wow, like there's this like
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weird tortured chamber environment that somehow connected to
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the justice of God.
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And like, what's that about?
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Okay, so when Jesus addresses these things, though,
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he's connecting it to the heart.
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He's connecting it to the trajectory of someone's
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life in terms of the kind of human
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being that they're becoming.
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There's an organic connection between what's going on
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now in people's hearts and what goes on
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for eternity.
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So one of his famous metaphors is the
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idea of building a house.
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This is from Luke chapter six.
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Why do you call me Lord Lord and
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do not do what I say?
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As for everyone who comes to me and
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hears my words and puts them into practice,
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I will show you what they're like.
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They're like a man building a house who
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dug down deep and laid the foundation on
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a rock.
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When the flood came, the torrent struck that
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house but could not shake it because it
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was well built.
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But the one who hears my words and
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does not put them into practice is like
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a man who built a house on the
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ground without a foundation.
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The moment the torrent struck that house, it
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collapsed and its destruction was complete.
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OK, now maybe you've never thought about that
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as a statement about divine judgment.
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But that phrase, it's a destruction was complete.
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That's a like eternal judgment kind of phrase.
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Jesus is saying it's possible for a human
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being to have a trajectory of life that
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ends in complete destruction.
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Now he uses other metaphors for that in
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other passages.
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He talks about the outer darkness.
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He talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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But the point is that it's connected to
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what's going on for somebody right now.
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When Jesus talks this way about the trajectory
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of a human life, he's drawing on the
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Hebrew wisdom literature.
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So, for example, the book of Proverbs talks
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frequently about the fool or about the wicked
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or about the unjust.
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Proverbs 22, verse eight, whoever sows injustice will
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reap calamity and the rod of his fury
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will fail.
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This metaphor of sowing and reaping, we still
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have this in kind of our popular culture.
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People may talk about karma, even without necessarily
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meaning like a Hindu specific idea, just like
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what goes around comes around, you reap what
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you sow, etc.
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Within the biblical vision, this is something that
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God does.
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God is the one who brings people back
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the harvest of what they have sown in
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their lives.
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And this is not an arbitrary process.
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It's not like somebody does something random that
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ticks God off and so he smites them,
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right?
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That's not the vision of the biblical God.
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Rather, it's like God brings the just ultimate
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resolution that reflects how somebody's life has been
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lived.
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And I was trying to think of an
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example that we might be familiar with that
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could help us understand this idea that somebody's
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pattern of life can lead to destruction in
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such a significant way that a kind of
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divine destruction becomes a just response to it.
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And I know that it's kind of stereotypical
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when you're talking about evil to go to
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like dictators and terrible human rights abuses.
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But the reason we go there is because
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it's so stark, right?
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You see one person with so much power
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and how even one person's character can have
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such a destructive effect for so many other
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people's lives.
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So a lot of examples we could go
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from here.
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I thought of the wonderful 2006 film Last
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King of Scotland with an incredible performance from
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Forest Whitaker about the Ugandan dictator Idi Amin,
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who ruled in the 1970s.
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So Idi Amin, like many dictators, was charismatic.
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He was able to command people's loyalty.
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He came up through the military, was able
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to command the loyalty of most of the
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Ugandan military, which is how he established a
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coup, which then brought him to power and
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he was the president.
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But then once he was president, his policy
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was to take existing ethnic tensions in Uganda
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and inflame them further in order to centralize
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power for himself.
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So sometimes this was through banishing people.
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So he decided to have a kind of
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anti-Asian and anti-European approach to the
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business community.
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So people of Asian descent, some of whom
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had lived in Uganda for generations, they were
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displaced.
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They were banished from the country, even though
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this had an immediate adverse economic effect on
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the country because they were contributing.
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They had jobs.
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They were leading businesses.
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They were part of the community.
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But again, this kind of xenophobic attitude causing
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these people to be rejected.
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Immediate negative effect, even for the Ugandans, for
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who sake he was purportedly doing this.
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And then many, many things that were much
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more dramatic in terms of human rights abuses.
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So targeting specific ethnic groups for murder, many
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people from different tribal and ethnic groups were
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simply disappeared.
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So, for example, the military and many civilians
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from the Akoli and Lango ethnic groups were
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dramatically affected.
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The most conservative estimate supposes that about 80
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,000 people were killed under the immune regime.
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Perhaps as many as half a million.
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It's hard to know because it was so
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chaotic.
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There was so much that was happening.
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This is also reflected in Idi Amin's personal
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life.
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So he was a polygamist.
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He didn't know how to honor women.
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He didn't have a relationship of equality with
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women in his life.
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He would marry one after the other.
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And then he divorced three of them all
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at once.
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And also seems like he was responsible for
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at least one of their deaths.
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And so in his personal life, in his
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political life, it was all about accruing power
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for himself.
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And it was profoundly destructive for everyone around
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him.
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Anybody personally connected to him, anybody affected by
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his political policies.
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And what Jesus is saying is when somebody
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has a life that's like this, there can
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be a kind of long term, eventually permanent
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resolution of that.
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Where somebody whose life has sown injustice, they
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will reap calamity or somebody who has built
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their house on a poor foundation, the storm
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is going to come.
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And this is actually good news because think
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about somebody who's like this, somebody who constantly
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feeds their own ego at the expense of
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other people who doesn't learn from their mistakes,
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who doesn't repent of their sins, who doesn't
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seem capable of feeling moral conviction or contrition,
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who doesn't think they need forgiveness, right?
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And they just keep doing whatever they want
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to do.
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And that keeps wreaking havoc all around them.
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Now think about the idea of heaven.
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How do you make a community of people
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in eternity, if somebody like that can still
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get there?
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Right?
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Like if you're like, oh no, like that
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person's just going to waltz right through the
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pearly gates and be part of the heaven
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club just along with everybody else.
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How is how is there going to be
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meaningful community and friendship and life there?
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Because that person's going to keep doing what
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they've always done.
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Right?
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Another proverb, chapter 26, verse 11, as a
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dog returns to its vomit.
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So a fool returns in his wickedness to
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his own sin and like dying is not
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going to be enough to fix that for
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certain people.
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Right?
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If there is a life after death, they're
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going to continue returning to that vomit again
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and again and again.
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And so the wisdom and the judgment of
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God is like, look, we're going to make
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it so that people reap what they sow.
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We're going to make it so that people
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are held accountable.
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If they're not held accountable in this life,
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they will be held accountable by God in
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the next.
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And there will be a limit just like
18:46
that.
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The first proverb that I read said the
18:48
the rod of his fury will fail.
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Right?
18:51
That's a that's a rod of injustice.
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It's a symbol of power, right?
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Political power, economic power.
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And there's another passage in Isaiah where God
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says he'll break the rod of the oppressor.
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And that's ultimately what God's judgment is is
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he's breaking the rod of the oppressor.
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He's saying this person will no longer have
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permission or ability to harm other people.
19:10
It's all going to fall back on their
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own head.
19:12
They're going to be stuck.
19:13
We're going to isolate the cancer and cut
19:15
it off so that community can thrive.
19:19
Now I just said we, but it's actually
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he because who is not wise enough and
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gentle enough and good enough and compassionate enough
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to make the call about any human being?
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Well, it's us.
19:35
We, we shouldn't have to make that call.
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And that's good news too, that it's Jesus,
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right?
19:40
He's the one who can see how somebody's
19:43
house is built.
19:44
He's the one that brings the harvest back
19:46
according to what people have sown.
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He's the one that knows, ah, is this
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cancer something that can be isolated within this
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person?
19:54
And as they turn away from evil, we
19:57
can, we can do a life saving surgery
19:59
for them and they can be welcomed into
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the community.
20:03
Or is this a cancer that has metastasized
20:05
because there's no openness to repentance or to
20:08
life.
20:09
And the only way to protect others is
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to, to have there be an outer darkness
20:13
where this person ends up.
20:16
It's really sobering to think about that judgment.
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But I feel like Jesus is the one
20:20
who's qualified to make it.
20:24
And so you see how the question of
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how, as awkward as that question is, as
20:28
counter-cultural as it is to even talk
20:29
about, rather than being a problem that we
20:32
have to somehow get rid of, it can
20:34
actually become an opportunity, a doorway, a window
20:38
into seeing the texture of the beauty of
20:41
Jesus, even more clearly, that Jesus is the
20:44
kind of Messiah who will hold the evil
20:46
and the unjust accountable.
20:48
And he's the compassionate kind of Messiah that
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will make a way open to anyone who's
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willing to repent and learn and grow.
20:54
He will teach us how to build our
20:56
house on the rock, if we're willing to
20:58
learn.
21:00
And just like that's true for the question
21:02
of hell, that's true for basically every major
21:04
objection to Christianity that I'm familiar with, whether
21:07
it's the problem of evil and suffering, probably
21:09
the major objection that people can bring, whether
21:12
it's the question of plurality and don't all
21:14
pass lead to God.
21:15
And why is Christianity so exclusive?
21:17
Well, there's questions about the history of the
21:18
church and the hypocrisy.
21:20
If we don't treat these questions as problems,
21:22
but instead welcome them, if they're being asked
21:24
in good faith and then explore with people
21:27
how Jesus' own teachings address these questions, it
21:31
actually leads to falling more deeply in love
21:33
with Jesus as often as not.
21:35
Now we don't know what's going to happen.
21:36
We may give this what we think is
21:38
a compelling explanation about how, and somebody may
21:40
be totally unpersuaded.
21:41
We can't control that, but what we can
21:43
do is come alongside them and help them
21:46
see Jesus in relation to the questions that
21:49
they're asking.
21:50
And we can leave the rest in his
21:51
hands.
21:55
Jesus, we want to see you and we
21:57
want our friends to see you in the
21:59
fullness of your beauty.
22:00
Show us how to talk about difficult things,
22:02
compellingly, winsomely in a way that brings us
22:06
back to you and help us to not
22:09
be anxious and leave everything that happens in
22:12
and through those conversations in your hands.
22:15
Do your work in us as we do
22:16
our work with you.
22:22
Thanks for listening.
22:24
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22:25
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22:28
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22:31
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