Latest / Inside Politics / $100k flights, uncomfortable truth about PM's wedding, and the social media ban fight

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$100k flights, uncomfortable truth about PM's wedding, and the social media ban fight · Inside Politics

• 0:00
  S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
• 0:02
  S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. It's Friday, December
• 0:06
  S1: the 5th. This week the prime minister, Anthony Albanese, was
• 0:10
  S1: on his honeymoon, of course, after his low key wedding
• 0:12
  S1: at the Lodge last weekend. But Senate estimates rolled on
• 0:16
  S1: in Canberra and we did uncover some interesting secrets. Joining
• 0:19
  S1: me to discuss is our chief political correspondent, Paul Circle,
• 0:22
  S1: and our political correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos, both beaming in live
• 0:27
  S1: from Canberra.
• 0:28
  S2: Hi, Jack. Hello.
• 0:30
  S1: So on this podcast, regular listeners will have clocked that
• 0:34
  S1: we've recently focused a lot on the opposition. Last week
• 0:36
  S1: we interviewed Opposition Leader Sussan Ley, and we've talked a
• 0:39
  S1: lot about their internal implosion over net zero. So we
• 0:42
  S1: feel a little bit like we've undercooked the government or
• 0:45
  S1: sort of scrutiny on the government these last few weeks.
• 0:49
  S1: So I want to correct that. To that end, the
• 0:51
  S1: big story this week was the government's social media ban,
• 0:53
  S1: which will come into effect next week on December 10th,
• 0:56
  S1: I believe. And Communications Minister Anika Wells, who is was
• 0:59
  S1: young and were led to believe up and coming minister,
• 1:02
  S1: gave a speech to the National Press Club about that ban.
• 1:06
  S1: Natasha attended and it was sort of tasks supposed to
• 1:09
  S1: be sort of like a crowning achievement type speech, wasn't it?
• 1:11
  S1: Because this social media ban has got bipartisan support. It's
• 1:15
  S1: hugely popular amongst parents, maybe not so much amongst teens
• 1:18
  S1: and tweens, but the whole speech kind of got hijacked
• 1:21
  S1: by another issue. Can you tell us what happened?
• 1:23
  S3: Yeah. And in terms of the kind of scene setter,
• 1:26
  S3: you know, I think people criticize this government for a
• 1:28
  S3: lack of of ambition at times. The social media ban
• 1:32
  S3: is probably one of the big policies it would point
• 1:34
  S3: to as a sign of its appetite for bold reform.
• 1:37
  S3: So there's a lot resting on it. Anika Wells inherited
• 1:41
  S3: this big policy after the election, and so the speech
• 1:46
  S3: this week was a bit of a kind of, I guess,
• 1:50
  S3: laying the groundwork for that, but also tempering expectations, I think,
• 1:55
  S3: for what people should expect.
• 1:57
  S2: Hugely.
• 1:58
  S3: Next week. At the same time you have a story break.
• 2:02
  S3: The previous night around Senate estimates.
• 2:05
  S4: Taxpayers coughed up almost $100,000 for flights, so the communications
• 2:10
  S4: minister and her staff could spruik Australia's world first social
• 2:15
  S4: media ban in New York. The controversy comes.
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  S3: And according to this document, the flights for wells cost
• 2:21
  S3: about $34,000 return and for her staff member cost about
• 2:25
  S3: $38,000 return. So there was a big please explain over that.
• 2:29
  S1: Well, according to our story, it was nearly $100,000 on
• 2:32
  S1: flights for the three of them. So Minister Wells and
• 2:34
  S1: then two staffers basically, which is an extraordinary amount of money.
• 2:39
  S1: And I actually struggle to understand how any flight can
• 2:42
  S1: cost $30,000. But apparently they did.
• 2:45
  S2: They haven't really explained how.
• 2:46
  S1: No the only well, so this and as you say,
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  S1: this was to the UN General Assembly and they got
• 2:51
  S1: really good publicity out of it at the time because
• 2:53
  S1: it was this world leading thing. And I think the
• 2:55
  S1: president of the EU showed up to this event and
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  S1: it got really good coverage and I think not just
• 3:01
  S1: in Australia, but also a little bit globally because because
• 3:04
  S1: it's a world leading ban, as they keep saying. And
• 3:07
  S1: now we're finding out that the cost was just astronomical.
• 3:10
  S1: It always amazes me when this stuff comes up, because
• 3:13
  S1: so many politicians have fallen on their sword over it.
• 3:15
  S1: And it's a really easy reference point for voters because
• 3:17
  S1: they know, like, hang on, how can a how can
• 3:20
  S1: a flight cost $30,000 or Susan Lee got done for
• 3:23
  S1: this when, you know, in 2017, when she was found
• 3:25
  S1: to have taken a taxpayer funded flight to the Gold
• 3:27
  S1: Coast to buy an apartment privately.
• 3:29
  S3: And I think this one is like, you know, it
• 3:31
  S3: was strictly government business. They have an argument for why
• 3:34
  S3: it was important. So I think perhaps they, you know,
• 3:39
  S3: they knew how much the flight cost. They had a
• 3:42
  S3: night's preparation that this story was going to come out.
• 3:44
  S3: There could have perhaps been a slightly more robust defence
• 3:48
  S3: of that.
• 3:49
  S1: I was actually really intrigued to know how one single
• 3:52
  S1: flight could cost $30,000 or in excess of $30,000, $80,000. Having,
• 3:56
  S1: you know, I'm more of a kind of bogan missile
• 3:58
  S1: type flyer. Like I'm Jetstar or Bust.
• 4:02
  S2: I'm the same. Actually a Jetstar.
• 4:04
  S1: Yeah, actually, you know, shout out to Jetstar.
• 4:06
  S3: I think everyone was very intrigued when we the The
• 4:10
  S3: Office by like 8 a.m. was googling how much it
• 4:14
  S3: would cost to fly first class Qantas to New York
• 4:17
  S3: the next day, and that came up at 16 grand return.
• 4:22
  S3: So we're talking double that now.
• 4:24
  S2: And this was $38,000, but.
• 4:25
  S3: It was 38,000 return. I was talking to a government
• 4:28
  S3: staffer about it. And they were kind of saying, you know,
• 4:32
  S3: flights do fluctuate wildly, especially the business class prices for
• 4:38
  S3: these big global summits and events. Right. Because the airlines
• 4:41
  S3: are aware, like and especially I think it was maybe
• 4:43
  S3: New York Fashion Week around that time as well. And
• 4:46
  S3: it was the UN. And there were a couple of
• 4:48
  S3: things on.
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  S2: So and she had to delay a flight right till
• 4:51
  S2: the last moment because she was dealing with the Optus trip.
• 4:53
  S5: Look, it's a matter of public record that I delayed
• 4:55
  S5: my departure because of the Optus outages.
• 4:58
  S6: So the scale of the tragedy linked to Thursday's Optus
• 5:02
  S6: outage is becoming clearer tonight. In the last hour, the
• 5:06
  S6: death of a fourth person has been confirmed by the
• 5:09
  S6: West Australian premier. A 49 year old man.
• 5:12
  S2: But the Prime Minister was questioning whether she should go
• 5:15
  S2: and he gave.
• 5:16
  S3: The Prime Minister's plane. Then she couldn't end up going
• 5:18
  S3: on the Prime Minister's plane, so.
• 5:19
  S2: It wasn't very last.
• 5:20
  S3: Minute.
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  S1: Sorry. I just loved the idea of all the journalists going, what?
• 5:23
  S1: What is a business class flight even cost? And what
• 5:25
  S1: is a first class flight cost? And it's beyond our.
• 5:27
  S3: World, like everyone was also like first class flight tomorrow.
• 5:30
  S3: Only $16,000 worth it. I don't know, but what was interesting,
• 5:35
  S3: I think that in her, because it's more just like it,
• 5:39
  S3: I think the reason it became a story was that
• 5:42
  S3: it didn't make clear sense.
• 5:44
  S1: No.
• 5:45
  S3: When you when you kind of benchmark typical flight prices.
• 5:48
  S3: And so I think it was an interesting decision In
• 5:52
  S3: that given there was then so much speculation, for example,
• 5:56
  S3: like was it a first class flight? Because that that
• 5:58
  S3: tends to be kind of toward the higher end of
• 6:00
  S3: first class flights, those prices. Was it a charter flight
• 6:03
  S3: like there are all these questions. Um, but at the
• 6:06
  S3: press club, she was asked, you know, why did they
• 6:09
  S3: cost so much? Then she was asked again, you know,
• 6:12
  S3: can you just explain the costs? Were they were they
• 6:14
  S3: first class flights, for example? She said no, they weren't.
• 6:16
  S3: So then that leaves an assumption there. Business class flights,
• 6:19
  S3: in which case they're very expensive business class flights. She
• 6:21
  S3: was then thrown a bone, I think, by the host
• 6:23
  S3: of the press club who said, well, you know, was
• 6:25
  S3: it because it was such a last minute flight that
• 6:27
  S3: it just cost that much? And again, she didn't really say.
• 6:31
  S5: Uh, no, they weren't first class flights. We will disclose
• 6:35
  S5: further through the usual ipea processes that haven't rolled out yet.
• 6:39
  S5: The reason you have this information now is because it
• 6:41
  S5: was a question on notice that we've provided ahead of
• 6:43
  S5: the Senate estimates process, all absolutely usual. Um, and we'll
• 6:47
  S5: continue to comply with all the usual rules. I would
• 6:50
  S5: refer you back to the fact that this is about
• 6:53
  S5: one of the most important public policy challenges.
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  S2: I think that those numbers I'm probably making some leaps here,
• 7:00
  S2: but I feel like the average voter would understand a
• 7:03
  S2: minister on a really long haul flight, taking a business
• 7:06
  S2: or first class tickets within the guidelines. They're looking at
• 7:10
  S2: sensitive documents. They need to be fresh immediately when they land,
• 7:13
  S2: to go to their events and deal with dignitaries, and
• 7:15
  S2: then they're on a different time zone, and they pretty
• 7:17
  S2: much stay up all day on on when they're back
• 7:20
  S2: on their previous sleep cycle. But I think it was
• 7:22
  S2: the numbers that just leapt out and looked absurd, like
• 7:24
  S2: a $38,000 flight strikes you as ridiculous. And her her
• 7:29
  S2: reluctance to explain why it was so high, which might
• 7:32
  S2: have a decent explanation, just furthers the narrative. And there's
• 7:36
  S2: a lot of a lot of the commentary in the
• 7:38
  S2: last day has been along the lines of this looking
• 7:41
  S2: on the nose in a cost of living crisis. I mean,
• 7:43
  S2: we live in a period of very high distrust of government. Yes,
• 7:46
  S2: some people are doing it tough, but even people who
• 7:49
  S2: are not would look at this and just think, oh, really?
• 7:51
  S2: And I think the instinct of voters these days is
• 7:54
  S2: to immediately look for a reason why this casts the
• 7:58
  S2: political class as out of touch and corrupt. That's where
• 8:01
  S2: most voters minds go. Cost of living, crisis or otherwise.
• 8:05
  S2: And I think if the government was just front footed
• 8:07
  S2: on this and said why her trip was important, why
• 8:10
  S2: it cost so much, they'd probably do a better job
• 8:12
  S2: of winning the argument.
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  S1: Yeah. And Paul, so the story came out sort of
• 8:16
  S1: through the estimates process, didn't it? So when Anika Wells
• 8:20
  S1: talks about transparency and sort of makes a virtue of
• 8:22
  S1: the transparency was actually, I think, opposition questions on notice
• 8:26
  S1: that they sort of that they had to answer basically,
• 8:29
  S1: and then they slipped out very late or sort of
• 8:31
  S1: reasonably late on Tuesday night. Is that right?
• 8:34
  S2: I think it came out through a Senate question.
• 8:36
  S3: Yeah. But I think it is disclosed ultimately through finance.
• 8:42
  S2: But was it finances decision to put it out at
• 8:44
  S2: that time? Or is that when the.
• 8:45
  S3: I think they generally have to bring they have to, um,
• 8:48
  S3: publish answers to before the next estimates hearing.
• 8:51
  S2: Okay, so it needs to get published before finance rocks
• 8:54
  S2: up in Senate estimates. Yeah. So that's.
• 8:55
  S3: Generally.
• 8:56
  S1: Yeah. So I mean our story says that the government
• 8:58
  S1: replied to an opposition question on notice from Senate estimates
• 9:00
  S1: in October. So, you know, I guess it's a month
• 9:03
  S1: or two old this question. And they've slipped it out
• 9:05
  S1: on Tuesday, late on Tuesday, which is, you know, standard
• 9:08
  S1: operating procedure, I suppose, for most governments who who want
• 9:11
  S1: to downplay something. Let's talk about the actual social media ban. Paul,
• 9:16
  S1: do you think there's a risk here for the government?
• 9:18
  S1: It's such a it's such a popular policy amongst parents
• 9:21
  S1: like myself, who have such huge anxiety over what social
• 9:25
  S1: media is doing to their kids. Um, what do you
• 9:28
  S1: think the risks are? Why? Why do you think there
• 9:30
  S1: are risks in it?
• 9:32
  S2: Well, I think this this little blow up over the
• 9:34
  S2: expenses helps bring to light this interesting paradox on this
• 9:39
  S2: policy debate. In one sense, the government's taken a huge
• 9:43
  S2: step forward here. They're a world leader in this space.
• 9:46
  S2: Anika Wells was in the UN General Assembly. Speaking at
• 9:50
  S2: a conference alongside Ursula von der Leyen, the EU president.
• 9:53
  S2: As you say, there's global momentum, momentum around what Australia
• 9:57
  S2: is doing. We look like the outlier nation that's willing
• 10:01
  S2: to take on the tech giants and do a reform that,
• 10:03
  S2: as you say, Jack, parents love. So we're getting a
• 10:06
  S2: lot of kudos internationally. Anika Wells did an interview with
• 10:08
  S2: the BBC the other night.
• 10:10
  S7: For this interview. I met Anika Wells, the Australian communications minister,
• 10:14
  S7: at her electorate office in Brisbane. You're going to hear
• 10:18
  S7: about a new digital law that she's spearheading to protect
• 10:21
  S7: children's health and wellbeing.
• 10:25
  S2: But in Australia in particular in the press gallery reporting
• 10:28
  S2: on this reform, there is a tendency to needle in
• 10:31
  S2: on the flaws, the messiness of how it's been put together.
• 10:35
  S2: This sense that only a week out, we're still adding
• 10:38
  S2: social media platforms to the ban. You're seeing the bipartisanship
• 10:42
  S2: on the coalition side, and they were actually the party
• 10:45
  S2: that first proposed this start to break away, they're questioning
• 10:49
  S2: whether it will work. They're saying that parents are worried
• 10:52
  S2: about data retention on the on the part of the
• 10:54
  S2: tech giants. You're saying teal MPs like Monique Ryan, who
• 10:58
  S2: support the essence of the ban, say, I don't think
• 11:00
  S2: this is going to work. And so you've got, on
• 11:03
  S2: the one hand, the government saying this is a momentous reform.
• 11:06
  S2: And it is in some ways. But there's this other
• 11:08
  S2: part of the debate about how it will work. And
• 11:10
  S2: over summer, as kids get bored during the school holiday period,
• 11:13
  S2: if there is a growing view that kids are just
• 11:16
  S2: getting around this through VPNs or using different apps like
• 11:19
  S2: Yope or lemonade, I don't know what those words meant
• 11:21
  S2: in a in an app sense until a week ago.
• 11:24
  S2: Then you could see a a growing narrative that this reform,
• 11:28
  S2: while worthy, is not practical.
• 11:31
  S1: Yeah. Or just that the government's done a not a
• 11:33
  S1: very good job at implementing it. So then it becomes
• 11:35
  S1: I mean and I agree like we don't know how
• 11:37
  S1: it's going to work. It seems very audacious and brave actually.
• 11:41
  S1: And I think most people would agree that it's a
• 11:44
  S1: good thing to try whether or not they get points
• 11:46
  S1: for trying if and when it sort of falls apart.
• 11:49
  S1: And yeah, like tweens and teens around the nation are way,
• 11:54
  S1: way savvier than the adults who are trying to police
• 11:56
  S1: them in getting around this stuff. It could become sort
• 11:59
  S1: of a competency issue for the Albanese government that they're
• 12:02
  S1: not particularly good at getting stuff done, particularly complex policy
• 12:06
  S1: reform like this. I mean, it'll be really interesting one
• 12:09
  S1: to watch because as I say, I do think it's
• 12:11
  S1: enormously popular. And it was it's a real winner. And
• 12:14
  S1: you sort of, you know, you can't really go wrong
• 12:17
  S1: when you're standing up to big tech giants who are
• 12:19
  S1: so on the nose internationally at the moment in terms
• 12:22
  S1: of their behaviour. And also it's protecting children and people
• 12:25
  S1: always want to do that.
• 12:27
  S3: I think like at the end of the day, this
• 12:30
  S3: is about kind of long term behavioural change. Yep. Um,
• 12:34
  S3: sending a signal. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, you know,
• 12:37
  S3: even even if the kind of tech element is like
• 12:40
  S3: half or two thirds effective at getting kids off the apps,
• 12:44
  S3: kind of what the intent is, is that you change
• 12:47
  S3: the kind of social norms or behaviors or expectations of
• 12:50
  S3: that age group over time. And so they've got a
• 12:54
  S3: two year review, I think, like an expert review of
• 12:56
  S3: Australian academics and overseas academics monitoring it. And it'll probably
• 13:00
  S3: take at least that long before we can actually tell. Yeah.
• 13:03
  S2: And she's a she's kind of at pains to point
• 13:05
  S2: out over and over. She's almost the first thing she
• 13:07
  S2: says when asked on this topic is that kids might
• 13:10
  S2: find a way around it. And she's fine. She's finding
• 13:13
  S2: new points to emphasize about how kids can get around it.
• 13:16
  S2: Like she said the other day, that you can get
• 13:17
  S2: your 17 year old brother to log you into Instagram.
• 13:20
  S2: So it's one of the only policy proposals I've seen
• 13:23
  S2: put forward where the government is trying to emphasize the
• 13:27
  S2: downside risk to manage.
• 13:29
  S3: The really tricky part of this is, is for that
• 13:32
  S3: current 13 to 16 year old age group, you're turning
• 13:34
  S3: the tap off. So this is the real troublesome point.
• 13:38
  S3: Whereas kind of eventually the whole point is you're not
• 13:42
  S3: turning the tap on for 13 year olds for a
• 13:44
  S3: few years. So I think it's going to be hardest
• 13:46
  S3: for this group of kids. And that's also why it's
• 13:48
  S3: going to there's going to be a lot of evasion
• 13:49
  S3: or whatever.
• 13:50
  S2: They're like the existing smokers.
• 13:51
  S3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:52
  S2: The price of darts.
• 13:53
  S1: Yeah. It's not it's not the kind of policy you
• 13:54
  S1: can grandfather. So there'll be 13 year olds who are
• 13:57
  S1: or sort of 15 year olds will be turned off
• 13:59
  S1: this week and be able to go back on next
• 14:00
  S1: week when they turn 16. It's imperfect in that sense.
• 14:03
  S1: But I mean, I've got a tween and it's just
• 14:06
  S1: an easy way. It's actually quite a good way to
• 14:08
  S1: open up a conversation about all this stuff. You know,
• 14:10
  S1: they hear on the news and you can say, there's
• 14:12
  S1: a lot of talk now about why adults, you know,
• 14:16
  S1: why this stuff maybe isn't so good for children. Social
• 14:18
  S1: media can be harmful for them. It's all about protecting
• 14:21
  S1: your brain, that kind of stuff. So look, I do
• 14:23
  S1: think it's really popular, but it's going to be really,
• 14:25
  S1: really interesting to see how it's implemented. And if it's messy,
• 14:28
  S1: it might end up it might end up going to
• 14:30
  S1: the government's competence as we talked about before. It was
• 14:33
  S1: Senate estimates this week. But Paul, it wasn't supposed to
• 14:36
  S1: be Senate estimates. The Senate estimates week was sort of
• 14:39
  S1: forced upon them all by independent Senator David Pocock. How
• 14:42
  S1: did that happen?
• 14:44
  S2: Yeah. So this wasn't booked in this final week of
• 14:46
  S2: Senate estimates. So Senate estimates means that the senators are
• 14:48
  S2: here grilling bureaucrats. All the members of the House of Representatives,
• 14:51
  S2: 151 or however many it is, are back in the electorate.
• 14:55
  S2: It's only the 76 senators. David Pocock, the Act independent senator,
• 15:00
  S2: big on transparency, big on government accountability. He had been
• 15:03
  S2: pushing labor to release this report called the Briggs Report,
• 15:07
  S2: which they'd been sitting on for, I think, more than
• 15:09
  S2: a year commissioned during the Morrison know, commissioned by labor
• 15:12
  S2: two years.
• 15:13
  S1: Yeah.
• 15:13
  S2: Natasha says two years. Commissioned by commissioned by labor. After
• 15:18
  S2: a long running debate about the Morrison government stacking boards
• 15:21
  S2: and other organizations with political appointments labor had commissioned, the review,
• 15:26
  S2: had its recommendations on the ministerial desk, and spent a
• 15:29
  S2: long time agonizing over what to do because they also
• 15:32
  S2: make some political appointments. And David Pocock thought this was
• 15:35
  S2: a disgrace, and effectively teamed up with the coalition to
• 15:39
  S2: Penalize Penalise Labour for not releasing this report, and part
• 15:43
  S2: of that penalty was to add an additional week of
• 15:46
  S2: estimates on. So Penny Wong and Katy Gallagher, the Labour
• 15:50
  S2: leaders in the Senate, have been complaining privately to coalition
• 15:53
  S2: MPs this week, saying, you know, we didn't want to
• 15:55
  S2: be here. You don't want to be here either. Why
• 15:57
  S2: are you working with Pocock? We had the Prime Minister's
• 16:00
  S2: wedding on Saturday and all we had to do was
• 16:01
  S2: prepare for estimates. So there's lots of grumbling across Canberra.
• 16:05
  S2: The coalition people are flat as a tack. Don't really
• 16:08
  S2: want to be here. Labor ministers don't want to be
• 16:10
  S2: defending these questions. But here we all are.
• 16:12
  S3: I think, though, that also just like as a throw
• 16:14
  S3: forward to next year, this kind of emerging alliance on
• 16:17
  S3: certain things between coalition Greens and Pocock, it's kind of
• 16:20
  S3: like an unholy trinity of of independent centre right opposition
• 16:24
  S3: and left. And because they are finding points, they're finding
• 16:29
  S3: points to cross. And it really annoys the government.
• 16:32
  S1: It's the beauty of the bicameral system that, you know,
• 16:35
  S1: governments almost never control the Senate. So it's a real wildcard.
• 16:38
  S1: And it always, always annoys the hell out of them.
• 16:42
  S1: The fight that all of this was about was this
• 16:43
  S1: report a very sort of bold and dynamic title, I
• 16:47
  S1: thought called No Favorites. And as you say, it was
• 16:50
  S1: commissioned in 2023. It was basically about government board appointments. So,
• 16:54
  S1: you know, there's all of these government boards like I
• 16:56
  S1: was having a look at them. There's so many of
• 16:58
  S1: them like Airservices Australia Board, the Australia Post Board, Australian
• 17:02
  S1: Building Codes Board, you know, things in more high profile
• 17:04
  S1: things like the board of the ABC. And they all
• 17:06
  S1: need people highly qualified. One hopes meritocratic appointments to these boards.
• 17:11
  S1: But governments often have been known to disappoint their mates
• 17:15
  S1: or people who are former politicians or people who have
• 17:18
  S1: been good to, you know, good to the party in
• 17:20
  S1: whatever way. The Morrison government was notorious for it. And
• 17:23
  S1: particularly with the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, which is a very
• 17:26
  S1: important it's not actually a government board. It's a very important,
• 17:30
  S1: you know, legal institution basically that oversees, um, and scrutinises
• 17:35
  S1: government decisions. And they were absolute bandits for political appointments
• 17:40
  S1: to that to the eight. So much so that the
• 17:42
  S1: that the labor opposition actually made a big thing of
• 17:45
  S1: it and ended up abolishing that the 18 and replacing
• 17:49
  S1: it with the art. So that's sort of the background, right.
• 17:52
  S1: So they've made a big deal about this in opposition.
• 17:55
  S1: And then they've come into government, commissioned a report about it.
• 17:58
  S1: And then they've said on the report for a long time, Paul,
• 18:00
  S1: why would they do that? And what did the report
• 18:02
  S1: sort of find?
• 18:04
  S2: The report recommended stripping a lot of power from the
• 18:07
  S2: government to make political appointments, not allowing them to make
• 18:10
  S2: them within six months of an election, because that scene
• 18:13
  S2: is a period where you can make some contentious calls
• 18:15
  S2: just before you might lose power. And effectively, without going
• 18:19
  S2: into too much detail on the recommendations, they recommended a
• 18:23
  S2: total overhaul of how appointments work to make it much
• 18:26
  S2: harder for government to put in friends of a political
• 18:29
  S2: party or former MPs or former staff into bodies. Labor
• 18:33
  S2: wanted to do some of it, but not all because
• 18:35
  S2: they think there's a balance to be struck here. They
• 18:38
  S2: do want to appoint Kevin Rudd to be an ambassador.
• 18:40
  S2: They do want to appoint Kim Beazley to be the
• 18:42
  S2: war memorial director or chairman or whatever he is. But
• 18:46
  S2: they do think there's a problem that needs to be solved.
• 18:48
  S2: And this is a similar kind of dynamic. You see
• 18:52
  S2: play out with labor on a bunch of different transparency
• 18:54
  S2: issues now where they came into power wanting to reverse
• 18:58
  S2: course on the Morrison era, which was seen to be,
• 19:01
  S2: you know, a degradation of how good government operates, maybe
• 19:05
  S2: played up and exaggerated by labor. And then on Labor's
• 19:08
  S2: left flank now, particularly with David Pocock, who's becoming a
• 19:12
  S2: real figure of annoyance for labor, he can always outflank
• 19:16
  S2: them on the transparency side. And he's expert at using
• 19:19
  S2: social media and traditional media to portray labor as not
• 19:23
  S2: interested in integrity. And on this issue, labor needs to
• 19:26
  S2: find a middle path through where they can continue to
• 19:30
  S2: make politically expedient decisions, but also appear to be less
• 19:33
  S2: corrupt than previous governments. but they've got David Pocock making
• 19:37
  S2: them making them appear. Yeah. You know not quite pure enough.
• 19:40
  S1: Yeah. It's interesting sort of turning of the tables because
• 19:43
  S1: and I think it's called gray corruption. So it's not
• 19:46
  S1: like sort of, you know, cash piles of cash in
• 19:49
  S1: brown paper bag type corruption, but it is sort of,
• 19:52
  S1: as you say, the the rewarding of friends with appointments
• 19:56
  S1: that are often very, very well remunerated, like we're talking
• 20:00
  S1: sort of salaries in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
• 20:03
  S1: And it over time, as the, as the report sort
• 20:06
  S1: of makes clear, erodes public trust in institutions. It further
• 20:10
  S1: erodes public trust in politicians because, you know, voters get
• 20:13
  S1: the sense that politicians are only in it for themselves
• 20:15
  S1: and maybe to enrich or help their mates. So it
• 20:18
  S1: is it is an issue. And I think I personally
• 20:21
  S1: think it was a it was a major issue along
• 20:23
  S1: with sports rorts for painting this picture of the Morrison
• 20:25
  S1: government as being very self-interested and interested in in themselves
• 20:30
  S1: above and beyond the interests of the Australian people.
• 20:33
  S2: And Morrison with the eight like the Liberal Party like.
• 20:36
  S2: To be blunt, they started to take the piss with
• 20:38
  S2: the eight like they were. They were 85. I think
• 20:40
  S2: it's 85 MPs, staffers or former party associates. But and
• 20:44
  S2: that's labor.
• 20:45
  S1: That those jobs. I mean, you require, you know, solid
• 20:48
  S1: legal minds to do those jobs. It's actually a very
• 20:51
  S1: important arm of government. The the old art. So yeah,
• 20:54
  S1: that was that was actually quite egregious. But I remember
• 20:57
  S1: the yeah, the labor opposition, Tony Burke at the time,
• 21:00
  S1: they were so onto it, they were really upset about it.
• 21:02
  S1: They made a big deal of it. And to their credit,
• 21:04
  S1: they actually sort of, you know, got a little bit
• 21:06
  S1: of sort of public, um, they got a little bit
• 21:08
  S1: of publicity over it, even though it was a pretty
• 21:10
  S1: dry area of administrative sort of law. And now they're
• 21:14
  S1: being scrutinised and it's not so fun on the other side.
• 21:18
  S2: Yeah. And labor knows that say for example, the the
• 21:21
  S2: Australia Post board or any bunch of these kinds of
• 21:24
  S2: important agencies, labor knows that some of their former MPs
• 21:29
  S2: and party officials have the kind of executive authority and
• 21:33
  S2: political go getter mindset to to play important roles in
• 21:37
  S2: some of these bodies. So it's not it's not that
• 21:40
  S2: easy to find a bureaucrat with no link to a
• 21:42
  S2: political party to go and do these roles for people
• 21:46
  S2: who have been involved in politics or had had a
• 21:48
  S2: role for a period in a ministerial office, are often
• 21:50
  S2: the best suited person for a job. So Labor's trying
• 21:54
  S2: to strike that balance, and we probably don't help in
• 21:57
  S2: the media where we scrutinize every single one of these
• 22:00
  S2: decisions as if they are gray corruption, when sometimes these
• 22:03
  S2: other people for a job.
• 22:04
  S1: No, I mean, I would I would disagree on that
• 22:06
  S1: because I think what the report says is not don't
• 22:09
  S1: make political appointments because as like politicians, former politicians have skills.
• 22:14
  S1: They know how government works, they have personal relationships. You know,
• 22:17
  S1: they have a lot of knowledge and experience to bring
• 22:19
  S1: to the kinds of things, you know, the kinds of
• 22:21
  S1: things they need for a government board role. But I
• 22:24
  S1: think the report just says that's fine, but they need
• 22:26
  S1: to go through a process like they need to apply
• 22:28
  S1: for it like everybody else does, which is perhaps is
• 22:30
  S1: not always convenient if you're the government minister and you
• 22:33
  S1: just need someone to be appointed straight away, and it's
• 22:35
  S1: just easier to pop them in there. But, um, I
• 22:38
  S1: guess you've got to balance that against the public trust issue.
• 22:41
  S1: Very interesting stuff. We know also, Albanese has been on
• 22:45
  S1: his honeymoon this week. Any ideas where he's been on
• 22:47
  S1: his honeymoon?
• 22:47
  S2: Guys in Australia, as all we know. Not Hawaii.
• 22:51
  S1: Okay. And maybe, um, he played for his own flights.
• 22:54
  S1: I'm sure.
• 22:55
  S3: They were. They were papped at the airport with the punters.
• 23:00
  S2: In the Sydney International terminal. Domestic terminal?
• 23:03
  S3: Terminal, please. Yeah.
• 23:04
  S1: Okay. So what did they sit down? Did they sit
• 23:06
  S1: down in the general area and, like, read the paper
• 23:09
  S1: and like, have a coffee with the with the hoi
• 23:11
  S1: polloi or were they in the.
• 23:12
  S3: Corners holding both the bags.
• 23:14
  S1: Oh, gentlemen.
• 23:15
  S3: So no bag carrier.
• 23:17
  S1: Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Well, we wish them well, I think.
• 23:20
  S3: Just two normal people in a honeymoon over December.
• 23:22
  S2: Anika Wells could take some pointers on how to do
• 23:24
  S2: how to do air travel the right way.
• 23:26
  S1: Good luck to them. I think the Anthony Albanese and
• 23:30
  S1: Jodie Haydon back this weekend and I'm sure on the
• 23:33
  S1: Prime Minister will be on deck for work next week
• 23:36
  S1: I think. Guys, thanks so much. That was fun as
• 23:38
  S1: always and I'll see you next week.
• 23:40
  S2: Talk to you next week.
• 23:41
  S3: Bye!
• 23:49
  S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong with technical assistance
• 23:52
  S1: from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and
• 23:56
  S1: special thanks to Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. To listen
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  S1: by visiting the page or smh.com.au. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank
• 24:23
  S1: you for listening.