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No Shortcuts: How Psychedelics and Stillness Shape the Healing Journey · Recovering Out Loud

• 0:00
  Hello everybody, and welcome to Recovering Out Loud, the podcast
• 0:04
  where we talk about addiction and mental health recovery.
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  Today's guest is Scott Graham, a licensed clinician who's been
• 0:11
  working in the addiction and mental health, including
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  corrections, since 1988. In addition to being a
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  psychotherapist and life coach, Scott is the author of 28 books.
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  His work spans topics like marijuana legalization, grief,
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  psychedelics, behavioral change, and recovery, all approached
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  with a practical, no BS style. He's also spent over 260 days in
• 0:33
  silent meditation, bringing a unique depth to his perspective.
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  Today we'll explore the messy, meaningful realities of healing
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  without the sugarcoat. Scott tells us his story and how
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  we got into the addiction mental health field.
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  We talk about marijuana legalization and practical
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  realities. We discussed grief and healing
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  and life after loss, psychedelics and behavioral
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  change. We talk about meditation and the
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  Buddhist life design and deep presence.
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  I had a blast today with Scott and I hope you get something out
• 1:03
  of it too. Enjoy the show.
• 1:21
  Scott Graham, how are you doing today?
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  I'm doing great. It's really raining here, but I
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  am still doing really great. Yeah, I don't know if the rains
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  ever going to stop, but I'm doing great.
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  Yeah, you're calling in from Baston.
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  I was about to say Baston. I'm saying it like you Boston,
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  MA, and I appreciate you coming on and taking the time.
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  It's amazing how the Internet works.
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  You know, these days, I truly believe the universe, God,
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  whatever you want to call it, puts, puts people in my path and
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  I can choose whether or not to accept those messages or decline
• 1:54
  them. Right.
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  And you came into my path and I'm, I'm grateful for that
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  because I'm very interested to learn what, what you have to
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  talk about with regards to addiction, but also mental
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  health is a broad spectrum. So why don't you get started and
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  tell us a little bit about yourself, your story, and how
• 2:10
  you got into this this field. So I'm, I mean, I'm actually in
• 2:15
  a lot of different fields and I've been working initially as a
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  therapist, substance abuse counselor since 1987.
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  And work started working in a collaborative program between
• 2:28
  Outward Bound, which is kind of like early hoods in the woods
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  type stuff and Beach Hill Hospital, which, which ran a
• 2:36
  substance use program looking for people who have wilderness
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  skills and substance abuse stuff.
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  And from there, I worked in an outpatient program for 400 and
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  some people with the Vermont Department of Corrections and
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  then launched my own coaching practice and then started
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  writing books in 2015. And it's been like a roller
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  coaster of books. I'm now working on my 29th book.
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  I just published my 28th book. And they are on every single
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  possible topic you can possibly imagine.
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  I'm not kidding, really. Really.
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  And so there's a lot of different things we can talk
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  about. And if you're even bored about
• 3:18
  or not wanting to talk about addictions, one of my most
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  recent books is Sup with Your Pup.
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  Those are my two dogs. I taught my dogs how to paddle
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  board, but no information on how to do paddle boarding on the
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  Internet. And so I ended up writing a book
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  about that. And so I'm just, it's on.
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  I read everything. That's amazing.
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  I love paddle boarding. It's one of my favorite things.
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  My wife and I go paddle boarding on Lake Ontario here and it's
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  right, it's true. There's no instruction manual on
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  how to paddle board for anybody like it.
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  It's, it's a, it's a pretty steep learning curve at the
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  beginning, right? You get up and you fall a few
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  times and everyone's watching and laughing at you.
• 3:56
  But it's, it's fun. It's a lot of fun.
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  I love the idea of being out in the ocean with nature.
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  There's something very special and calming about that.
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  Yeah, huge, Huge. And there's not.
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  And there's very few things to keep you separated from your
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  foolhardy decisions when you're out there.
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  You have to be prepared. So I've learned, interestingly
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  enough, you'll be this I I learned how to paddle board at
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  the same time I taught my dogs how to paddle board with no
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  information on anything. And they're, we're pros now.
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  We're paddle boarding pros. Yeah, I love it.
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  That's amazing. So what?
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  What inspired you to enter the field of addiction or mental
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  health back in 88, you said. Yeah, it was actually Anthony.
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  I was working as a bartender and I've gotten a degree in
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  psychology and I was looking for someone came up to me, see if
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  you you got your these degrees, you get to do something with it.
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  And that got me involved in working in a, in a alternative
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  school program and youth. And there was a lot of substance
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  abuse there that we talked about.
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  But the big gap was that I had done a lot of hiking.
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  I hiked the Appalachian Trail. I was a big outdoors person and
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  I had all these wilderness skills and this program, which
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  was substance abuse in the woods for 21 days year round, year
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  round. So we were out for 21 days in
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  the middle of the winter. And you only had to know what
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  you were doing. And so they had trouble finding
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  people that had both skill sets. They could find people that had
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  a good wilderness skill set and knew nothing about substance
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  abuse and counseling. And then they had it could find
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  people that were really good with substance abuse and
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  counseling. But there is no way.
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  So it's saying that the place that I and I started, I started
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  working with inner city kids in an alternative school program.
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  That's how I first started working in substance use.
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  And then this opportunity came about for an Outward Bound
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  program that was looking for therapists.
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  And their dilemma was that they had wilderness instructors who
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  had no counseling skills, no substance abuse skills, and at
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  the same time, they could find substance abuse counselors that
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  had no wilderness skills. And I was, as at the start of my
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  profession in substance abuse counseling, had hiked the
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  Appalachian Trail, had done a lot of wilderness canoeing.
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  I had both skills in the pieces that they really needed.
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  So they reached out to me and boom, that's how I got started.
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  Wow, at the wilderness program. Can you describe that a little
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  bit? Because I, I know a little bit
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  about it just from when I was in rehab, there was some guys that
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  had had gone to it. What?
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  What is the wilderness program? So this this program is not like
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  the hoods in the woods stuff that you would see like OK.
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  Where they? That's what I'm thinking.
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  Of try the kid out and force them to eat maggots and squirrel
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  meat and you know, it wasn't like that.
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  It was a traditional Outward Bound program that was broken up
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  into training, main final expedition, had a rock climbing
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  element, had a solo element, had a race at the end or one that
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  you did at the end, just like all Outward Bound courses.
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  But it included a substance abuse substance treatment,
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  substance counseling focus, mental health counseling focus.
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  And we would go out for 21 days at a time.
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  And it had a family component, so families could kind of get
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  what was going on with their kids.
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  And we would go camping for seven days and then come back in
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  and resupply. And then in the summertime, we'd
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  go canoeing in the middle of the thing.
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  And then there will be a final expedition.
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  And the, the general strategy about we're bound is 2 things,
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  to put somebody in a outside their comfort zone so that they
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  have to grow and expand and to build their competencies.
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  So that by the end of the course, on the courses that went
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  really well, those last kind of four days of the course, the
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  students were kind of on their own.
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  We were with them, we were trailing along behind them.
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  They could reach out. But the goal was that they had
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  built enough skill set that they could cook together as a group,
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  work together as a group, make their decisions as a group, and
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  get from point A to point B. All right, so really giving them
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  life, usable life skills, right for for after.
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  Yeah, and, and more than just, you know, the commuting piece or
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  the OR the camping piece, really understanding, you know,
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  planning, living in the moment, taking things a day at a time,
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  communicating with other folks, trusting what they're doing is,
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  I mean, all these pieces are really critical skills that they
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  got. So definitely not this drag them
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  off, you know, beat them down type crush them was not like
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  that at all. Very empowering.
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  Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's the one I'm I was
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  referring to because those are the ones that I heard of for,
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  you know, troubled kids, let's let's call it troubled youth.
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  Was there a moment you would say, Scott, where that really
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  shaped your approach early on, like a moment or or a case, a
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  case that you worked with? You know, what really shaped my
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  approach in my own life was that I was a student on an outer
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  bound course in 1984. It was a 10 day course in the
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  Florida Everglades. It wasn't geared for youth at
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  risk. It was an adult course there.
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  I was in college at that time and you know, in my early 20s.
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  And the philosophy of Outward Bound, which is really summed up
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  in their their motto, which is to strive to serve and not to
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  yield, really has shaped my entire and it's really shaped my
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  entire life, even to this day. Awesome.
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  I want to get into the marijuana legalization because that was
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  big here in Canada. When that happened, for a lot of
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  reasons, dispensaries started popping up all over the place
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  and you know, we started knowing a little bit more about what we
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  were putting in our bodies in terms of.
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  You know. THC and and love it.
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  Determining marijuana. Yeah, love it.
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  What from your clinical perspective, what what do you
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  think the most misunderstood aspects of the legalization of
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  marijuana is today? Well, there's, there's, there's,
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  there's a couple of pieces. It's gone too fast.
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  It has gone too fast. And so we now have have this
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  proliferation of marijuana stores, which without any
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  consistency among marijuana products.
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  And one of the biggest issues I think you, you just haven't said
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  on it. You said what do we call these
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  places around Canada? They are called marijuana.
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  Dispensaries. Dispensaries, there's all of
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  this medical terminology that goes along with it and it's not
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  by accident. It is not it's it's strategic.
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  So you we talk about doses, we talk about dispensaries, it's
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  this medicalization and that's going to be a problem.
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  I'm not saying that that it's people are working toward that
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  problem, but the consequence of that is that someday I told what
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  happens, it hasn't happened already.
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  You're going to have somebody say I need to be stoned all the
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  time because I have it's my medicine.
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  I need to take my medicine and that's going to be help me get
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  stoned all the day stoned. I that's, that's what I have to
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  do to get through work. If somebody was anxious about
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  their job and just put this into perspective, someone was anxious
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  about their job and said, you know what, I need to micro dose
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  tequila all day long would be like, what?
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  What what would you just say? Yeah, yeah, I take, I take, I
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  take a half a shot at 9:00 and then I took a shot at 10, get a
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  shot at 11. And I'm not intoxicated because
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  I'm below the legal limit. But it just takes the eye drop.
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  I'm micro dosing tequila. We'd be like, get out of here.
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  Yeah, that's a real possibility that that can happen and
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  someone's gonna say you are violating my rights 'cause this
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  is, this is a medical condition and I need to be stoned all the
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  time. That's just one of the
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  consequences of this haphazard slapping it all together.
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  Yeah, I would. It's almost, you know, as you
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  were talking there, I was thinking like, it's helping me,
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  right. And that's that's the excuse you
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  hear a lot in in addiction recovery circles is like, it's
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  helping me. It's my medicine.
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  You know, it takes away the edge off, if you will, right.
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  A lot of people come in saying that.
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  So yeah, that's it's funny to think of it like that for sure.
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  People say the same thing about alcohol.
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  It's helping me, right? It helps me be more relaxed.
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  I'm trying to meet people. I can talk to people better.
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  It's, you know, people don't start taking heroin because it's
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  hurting them. They stake it because it's
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  helping them. For some reason or another,
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  they're getting something positive from that.
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  It's only after a while that they're like, oh, shit, this is
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  not this. This is not the the the the
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  fable promised land that heroin was said to be.
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  Yeah, Yeah, it's, it's true. Like I wouldn't have got into
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  drugs and alcohol if it didn't do something for me at first,
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  right? And then it, it becomes just
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  problems, right? It's fun, fun with problems and
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  then just straight problems after that.
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  You know, I can't hold up my job.
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  I can't, you know, keep my relationships intact.
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  I can't, you know, have any goals or aspirations because all
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  I care about is the next high, right?
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  Right. Right.
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  So that's, that's just one outgrowth.
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  The other outgrowth that's kind of related to this is that there
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  is, and this is this, this directly addresses substance
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  abuse treatment. We have no idea what the hell
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  people are taking when they put this in their body.
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  And so I'm all I'm suggesting is that what we need is a standard.
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  There are more, there is more information on the back of a box
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  of Oreo cookies than there are and that's appalling.
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  And that's really appalling. It should be appalling that then
• 14:28
  there are in in these marijuana products.
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  We need a consistent like we can look at a box of Oreos and say
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  this is how much fat is in it. And we can look at box and we
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  know what the serving size is and we can look at a box of
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  potato chips and say this is how much fat and this is what the
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  serving size, burritos, serving size all the way across
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  everything. You cannot do that with
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  marijuana products. So it's a crapshoot and go low
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  and go slow or whatever the hell they're saying these days is
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  just a baloney. It's just that's baloney.
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  Can you imagine if they did that?
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  Well, you know, this is what we're teaching you since you've
• 15:07
  had three DW, is go low and go slow.
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  Go slow and go low. The people be like, what?
• 15:15
  You know, Oh yeah, you've got an issue with cocaine.
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  This is what this is what you need to remember.
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  Go low and go slower. Go slow and go lower.
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  Whatever the hell it is. People be like, what?
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  When you take the marijuana out of the equation and replace it
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  with any other substance, it's like, that's crazy.
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  We know. Do they have, do they have
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  proof? In Canada?
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  When you buy your liquor, do they talk about it in proof?
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  We don't normally, you know, when I would say when people
• 15:41
  make it themselves, they talk about it in proof like moonshine
• 15:44
  over here or, or in the Italian culture is called grappa or
• 15:49
  they, they talk about it in proof.
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  But mostly it's the percentage of alcohol that we talk about.
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  So that's, that's clearly you get, you get a thing that's 40%
• 15:57
  alcohol or you know, it's 80 proof, right?
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  That's 40%. It's proof in the United States
• 16:02
  that's that translates to 40% alcohol, right?
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  And that's different than something that's 200.
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  It's 100% alcohol. And so you can tell what you're
• 16:12
  getting. You can pick up a beer and it's
• 16:14
  got a percentage of the alcohol in it, you know.
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  And you know that if you get a beer, you drink the same beer
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  that's, you know, 6% and one's 3%, that's going to impact you
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  differently, much deeper because it's got twice the amount.
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  There's not that with marijuana at all.
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  At all. I think too, and this leads into
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  my next question, but the legalization of marijuana has, I
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  mean, at least when it comes to alcohol, a lot of the, and I
• 16:41
  know myself a lot of the time it was like, you know, I had this
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  justification in my head, Well, it's legal, I'm not doing
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  anything wrong, right? And so now that's kind of
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  translating into the marijuana thing where it's like, well,
• 16:51
  it's legal, so I'm not doing anything wrong.
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  It's not that bad. At least I'm not doing heroin.
• 16:55
  Meanwhile, marijuana does take down lives, right?
• 16:57
  It, it's all how you use it. So how is the legalization
• 17:00
  impacted your clients on their in their recovery?
• 17:04
  It's, it's been one of the pieces that I do here in America
• 17:07
  now my main, one of my main substance abuse gigs is working
• 17:11
  for the, working as an SAP substance abuse professional for
• 17:15
  the Department of Transportation.
• 17:17
  Somebody comes up negative, I mean positive on a drug test.
• 17:21
  They have to see a substance abuse professional.
• 17:23
  They can't drive anymore. And I get people all the time
• 17:26
  that are like, well, it's legal. I, I don't understand.
• 17:29
  I'm like, all right, it's a, and this is, this is the problem
• 17:32
  because they can't, because there's not a piece to
• 17:35
  measurement measure. They can only measure whether
• 17:40
  it's in your blood or not, whether it's, you know what?
• 17:43
  So they do what they do a urine test and they're like, it's in
• 17:46
  your system. They can't look, they can't give
• 17:48
  you a breathalyzer like they can with alcohol and say you're
• 17:51
  intoxicated. So somebody could smoke
• 17:54
  marijuana 20 days ago? That's what I was going to say.
• 17:58
  It has a long half life too, yeah.
• 18:00
  Get behind the wheel of a truck, get in an accident, get drug
• 18:06
  tested because of the accident. And then they're like, oh, well,
• 18:09
  you were positive for marijuana as if they were stoned while
• 18:12
  they were driving, right? Right.
• 18:14
  Well, it's because we don't know our ass from our elbow with this
• 18:17
  stuff. And the stuff got all passed too
• 18:19
  early, right? If it was, if it was still an
• 18:22
  illegal drug, we wouldn't have this.
• 18:24
  But if people can do this, people have it at parties,
• 18:27
  people eat, could eat an Oreo, a chocolate chip cookie that's
• 18:32
  laced with marijuana and you're not going to do it.
• 18:34
  And that's happened. So people are like, I don't know
• 18:36
  how I got this in my system. Well, you got it in their system
• 18:39
  somehow, and people are. It's just floating around and
• 18:44
  you can't have it in your system.
• 18:45
  Even though it's legal in Vermont, or even though it's
• 18:47
  legal in Massachusetts, or even though it's legal in wherever
• 18:50
  the hell it is, it's not federally legal.
• 18:53
  And even if it was, they still wouldn't be.
• 18:55
  You still couldn't take it 'cause they have no way of
• 18:57
  telling you whether you were driving stoned or not.
• 19:00
  Yeah, I, you know what? I never thought of that.
• 19:02
  It's a great point, right? And a lot of people probably get
• 19:04
  into trouble for that when they they maybe weren't stoned during
• 19:07
  the ACT, right? It is so inconsistent that
• 19:11
  somebody can take AI always get these mixed out because there
• 19:15
  was a, there was a Italian restaurant when I went to school
• 19:17
  called CDBS or CDDS. But people can take like CBD or
• 19:22
  hemp oil, right? Put that as a massage piece or
• 19:25
  take that to help them sleep at night with that and it's got no
• 19:28
  psychoactive effect that is going to make that person
• 19:32
  positive for marijuana. And then they're like, I didn't
• 19:36
  even do marijuana, I was doing this.
• 19:37
  Well, it's too bad you're stuck because the technology hasn't
• 19:42
  kept up and the Department of Transportation doesn't care.
• 19:46
  They can't. They can't care if the
• 19:48
  Department of Transportation allows any wiggle room.
• 19:51
  And it's probably the same in Canada.
• 19:52
  If there's any wiggle room, then somebody could like weasel that
• 19:58
  and the last thing they want is somebody driving the school bus
• 20:01
  into a building. Yeah.
• 20:03
  Right, they have. There's no exception.
• 20:05
  It's black and white, no Gray area.
• 20:07
  Yeah, yeah. What in your opinion, what do
• 20:11
  you think? If there is one, what what is
• 20:13
  the solution or a possible solution?
• 20:17
  We need to, I'm not saying not legalize marijuana.
• 20:20
  We need to have a consistent measurement piece across.
• 20:23
  I mean, we could. We've got the science to send
• 20:27
  people to the moon. Jeez Louise.
• 20:31
  We should be able to figure out a consistent piece every single
• 20:35
  legislator should require. They don't.
• 20:37
  They don't have to. As a legislator, they don't have
• 20:40
  to even say what it needs. They they all may have to say is
• 20:45
  there needs to be consistent labeling on marijuana across all
• 20:50
  products across all of Canada so that every single person knows
• 20:55
  what it's taking and how much THC in is the is in there and
• 21:01
  how long it's going to last. They just have to write that in
• 21:04
  and people are going to have to figure that out.
• 21:07
  They should stop using medical terms for marijuana.
• 21:13
  We should not be going to the marijuana dispensary.
• 21:15
  We go to the grocery store, we go to the liquor store, go to
• 21:18
  the hardware store, go to the marijuana dispensary.
• 21:22
  Like they should be like, no, it's no medical terms for
• 21:26
  marijuana in your, in your publications, your marketing,
• 21:29
  you're this, it's the marijuana store.
• 21:33
  Yeah, easy to. Yeah.
• 21:34
  Yeah, sometimes it's too simple, right?
• 21:37
  It's too simple. We overcomplicate things.
• 21:40
  What, what guidance would you give somebody that's struggling
• 21:42
  with marijuana, maybe all drugs, but what what guidance would
• 21:46
  you, what would you say to someone struggling with this?
• 21:49
  It's if you're struggling with marijuana, you are these days,
• 21:53
  it's a tough place to be because you have the marijuana industry
• 21:57
  saying it's not a problem. You have people that don't even
• 22:00
  know what, what, what constitutes a problem, right?
• 22:06
  If, if, if you went up this true story.
• 22:09
  I'm getting a hip replacement on July 7th.
• 22:11
  I've already had two knee replacements I had to go for
• 22:13
  like your pre intake, whatever the hell it is.
• 22:16
  They asked me all kinds of questions.
• 22:18
  You know how much they wanted to know how many, you know how much
• 22:22
  junk food I was eating and what my exercise was, blah, blah,
• 22:25
  blah, blah, blah. Question about alcohol.
• 22:28
  How much alcohol do you take? And, and I gave them an answer
• 22:32
  to that and, and I, you know, said, ask them after I gave them
• 22:37
  that answer. Is that good or bad?
• 22:38
  Right. I said, yeah, maybe I'll have a
• 22:40
  beer a week. And so I was just making these
• 22:43
  up. I know I was lying and I was
• 22:46
  just making out because I wanted to see what they, it's just a
• 22:49
  stupid intake. And so he said, oh, no, that's,
• 22:53
  that's, that's fine. We want to be concerned about.
• 22:56
  And he went off something, you know, you're drinking every day
• 22:59
  or you're doing this not even, you know, in substance abuse,
• 23:04
  what we used to talk call, you know, relief drinking.
• 23:08
  There's a point in your addiction cycle where let's
• 23:13
  think about this. This is just wild.
• 23:16
  I'm thinking about this. And you just ask, there's a
• 23:18
  point in your addiction cycle where you move into relief
• 23:22
  drinking or so it's just talking about alcohol.
• 23:26
  You're drinking beer on a regular basis and it's fun.
• 23:30
  And suddenly it's switches where it's you're not just drinking
• 23:33
  for fun, you're drinking to get relief from your day.
• 23:37
  So alcohol becomes a coping skill.
• 23:40
  Well, jeez Louise, marijuana is marketed as a coping skill.
• 23:45
  There's your microdose. Now, we've already skipped that
• 23:48
  piece. Anyway, I said to the doctor,
• 23:50
  she said, well, how are you managing pain?
• 23:52
  And I said, well, because she didn't ask about marijuana, even
• 23:56
  though it's legal. It's crazy.
• 23:58
  I said to this person, I gave him this obnoxious number.
• 24:01
  I said, I'm doing, I'm doing a milligram every hour from when I
• 24:05
  wake up. And then at 5:00, I do 2
• 24:07
  milligrams. At 7:00, I do another 2
• 24:09
  milligrams. When I'm getting ready to go to
• 24:11
  bed at night, I do, I'm speeding this up, 9 milligram.
• 24:14
  At 9:00, I do 5 milligrams. At 10:00 I do 5 milligrams.
• 24:17
  And then I go to bed. She's writing this down here in
• 24:20
  the headlights, right? And I said to him, I said to the
• 24:26
  intake person, I'm like, is that good or bad?
• 24:29
  They just looked at me like this.
• 24:33
  I'm like, I, I got to know, is that too much?
• 24:37
  Can I do more clueless? Clueless.
• 24:42
  Can you just think about that? There's this substance that
• 24:45
  people are putting in their body and the medical profession is
• 24:49
  clueless as to whether this much is good, that much is good.
• 24:54
  This way is the clueless, and it's legal.
• 24:59
  I'm not saying make it illegal. I'm not saying that at all.
• 25:03
  I'm saying we shouldn't be clueless.
• 25:06
  Yeah, yeah. Well, especially too.
• 25:09
  And this leads me into the next point I wanted to talk about
• 25:11
  with this upcoming psychedelic trend, right?
• 25:14
  This psychedelic, yeah, treatment process that they're
• 25:18
  doing right? Like it's very possible that
• 25:20
  this could also to become legal one day.
• 25:23
  We don't know mushrooms, you know, I'm I'm blanking on the
• 25:27
  the proper name of them now. Suicide.
• 25:30
  Thank you, suicide. That's.
• 25:31
  One here Yeah yeah yeah yeah. 4 bucks on psychedelic.
• 25:36
  So what's your take on, you know, current interest in
• 25:39
  psychedelics for mental health and addiction?
• 25:42
  I would say, you know, that psychedelics are following the
• 25:47
  same trajectory like marijuana. It's being promoted as you hear
• 25:54
  people say, you know, I have to take my medicine, medicine like
• 26:00
  that. It's even they're not saying
• 26:01
  dosage, They're saying, you know, this is my medicine, my
• 26:05
  sacred medicine they have to take.
• 26:08
  And the, the there's some focus around micro dosing, but if the
• 26:13
  real focus is doing these for the average person as it's
• 26:19
  unfolding is doing these psychedelic experiences.
• 26:25
  So I've never done psychedelics before.
• 26:28
  I'm looking for a thing that's going to pick a topic.
• 26:31
  Help me be a better manager, help me be a better husband,
• 26:35
  help me deal with anxiety, help me deal with depression, help me
• 26:38
  grow my bald hair back, help me, you know, it goes on and on and
• 26:42
  on and on and on and on. And So what you do is you do
• 26:47
  this psychedelic experience, which is to take this, you know,
• 26:54
  in a 2 hour block and then apply it to your life.
• 27:00
  We now here's the here's the stick.
• 27:02
  Now I've written two books on this.
• 27:03
  Got to show these Hold on, No? Problem.
• 27:05
  What happens when you write a lot of books?
• 27:07
  Right, So we've got the Psychedelic Preparation Workbook
• 27:12
  now. Interestingly, I've written 28
• 27:13
  books. This is the number one
• 27:15
  bestseller right now. People are selling like
• 27:18
  hotcakes. Yeah, it says a lot.
• 27:20
  It says a lot about society, yeah.
• 27:23
  Nobody's nobody's buying the Buddhist book on how to be
• 27:25
  better, live a better life. That's an alignment with
• 27:29
  Buddhist ethical principle. We want shortcuts.
• 27:32
  They want, yeah, that's exactly, that's the world we live in.
• 27:36
  We want shortcuts. And then this is the other book,
• 27:39
  which is the Psychedelic Integration Workbook.
• 27:44
  This is so one's a before and one's an after.
• 27:47
  And I wrote them and have done this stuff because if the
• 27:52
  psychedelic wave hits, I want to be ready to paddle board on top
• 27:57
  of it. I'm just sitting on the paddle
• 27:59
  board in the ocean now, waiting, ready to go, all geared up with
• 28:03
  the two docks. But and the truth of this, I'm
• 28:10
  going to minimize this. So we talked about Outward Bound
• 28:13
  earlier. That was my experience.
• 28:16
  And so Outward Bound would do these one day programs, three
• 28:21
  day programs, an outgrowth of Outward Bound called Project
• 28:25
  Adventure, doing ropes courses, would do these experiences, push
• 28:31
  people outside of their comfort zone, challenge them in ways and
• 28:35
  what they would do before they did these intense weekend or
• 28:40
  even one day experiences, they would do all this preparation
• 28:43
  work. What kind of person do you want
• 28:45
  to be? What's going to be important to
• 28:47
  you? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
• 28:48
  blah, blah. They do this and there'd be this
• 28:51
  almost therapeutic element around the experience.
• 28:54
  Oh my God, I said I didn't want to be.
• 28:57
  I wanted, I need to listen to people more.
• 28:59
  And I just spent half the day not listening to people.
• 29:02
  Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding.
• 29:04
  Then they would do integration afterwards and say, all right,
• 29:09
  so now that you know this about yourself, how are you going to
• 29:11
  change your life? Let's come up with a plan.
• 29:14
  Now that you've had this big insight from this peak
• 29:17
  experience that this is the thing you've prepared.
• 29:20
  You've had this because let's talk about how you can change
• 29:23
  your life. Take action.
• 29:24
  That's it's the same damn thing as psychedelics.
• 29:28
  And then psychedelic people are going to be like, no, no, no,
• 29:30
  no, no, no. It really, it's the exact,
• 29:32
  there's this this experience that you have that gets wrapped
• 29:36
  up with some pre work and some post work and how is your life
• 29:41
  going to be different? That is the model for
• 29:47
  psychedelics as it's going out there.
• 29:50
  It's the same thing we did in Outward Bound.
• 29:51
  It's just wrapped in a different wrapping paper.
• 29:55
  Yeah, an easier, softer way, if you will, right.
• 29:57
  Yeah. For some people anyway.
• 29:59
  Some I've heard, some people have some very.
• 30:01
  I've never done psychedelics. My experience with them, and
• 30:04
  this is just my experience, right?
• 30:06
  I'm not an expert in the field, but I was very close to doing an
• 30:09
  ayahuasca retreat. I signed up, I paid the money.
• 30:13
  You know, some shaman is it, I believe they're called.
• 30:17
  Yeah, she she was going to take, she takes a group of people up
• 30:19
  north. I was recommended by a friend
• 30:21
  who had something had changed about him.
• 30:23
  I'd seen some some sort of serenity in this guy and I was
• 30:27
  very interested. I I wanted to find God.
• 30:28
  I wanted to find spirituality. And I was talking to my
• 30:31
  therapist one day. She's an addict as well herself.
• 30:34
  And she said to me something that that changed my perspective
• 30:37
  of it. She said, do you know anybody
• 30:40
  that has done 11 psychedelic trip, one psychedelic experience
• 30:44
  1. And I thought about it for a
• 30:45
  while. And in my circle, my experience,
• 30:47
  no, it's I, I've never met somebody that's done one.
• 30:50
  And she said to me, well, what's the chances?
• 30:53
  What are the chances that you're just going to stop at one?
• 30:55
  What, how do you know this isn't going to become your addiction?
• 30:58
  And that's why I say from my perspective, I know today that
• 31:02
  that it's not for me. There's other ways to, to find a
• 31:04
  spiritual experience to find God for me, but it's a slippery
• 31:08
  slope, this psychedelic thing for me, although I'm very
• 31:10
  intrigued in it, I'm, I've, I believe it helps a lot of
• 31:13
  people. And the, the, the data and the
• 31:15
  studies that are coming out are very promising.
• 31:17
  I'm excited to see where it goes.
• 31:18
  But for this addict and alcoholic, I don't touch it
• 31:21
  today because I don't know what's going to happen if I do,
• 31:24
  right? So let me let me ask you this.
• 31:25
  This is an important piece. So think about this before you
• 31:28
  answer this. Why are you intrigued?
• 31:31
  What is the what is the intrigue about?
• 31:36
  What is? Because you use that word
• 31:37
  specifically, you're intrigued. What's and, and, and it's
• 31:41
  important. Your answer is important because
• 31:43
  I think it's going to relate to a lot of the listeners out
• 31:45
  there. Why are you intrigued?
• 31:47
  Yeah, it's a great question. It is a, it's a fabulous
• 31:50
  question. I think originally having I, I
• 31:54
  remember there was a point in my life where psychedelics kept
• 31:58
  coming up in social media and it was showing itself to me.
• 32:02
  I had another therapist that was talking about her psychedelic
• 32:06
  experience. And so it started opening these
• 32:09
  doors to my mind where these people were talking about it
• 32:12
  with such vigor and such enthusiasm and how it really
• 32:15
  helped them. It was very hard.
• 32:17
  And they talked about, you know, meeting the devil and meeting
• 32:19
  God and all these things. I think for me, ultimately, I
• 32:24
  wake up every morning and my, my goal, maybe not every morning,
• 32:27
  but my ultimate goal is to find this, this God, this higher
• 32:31
  power. I, I think I've found it, you
• 32:33
  know, through, through recovery work, through 12 step work and
• 32:36
  other stuff like that. But I think for me, I, I want
• 32:40
  that shortcut, if I'm being honest, I want the shortcut to
• 32:42
  spirituality, to God, to a spiritual experience.
• 32:45
  And I want this, this experience that I don't have to work for.
• 32:49
  Essentially, yeah. No, you hit it.
• 32:52
  I, I, I knew you were going to say that in our just brief time
• 32:55
  of knowing each other and knowing about your history and
• 32:57
  your experience, you would get it.
• 32:58
  So there's two piece, 2 pieces to that.
• 33:00
  The intrigue is almost surrounded in addictive
• 33:04
  thinking. There's this magical thing on
• 33:07
  the other side. Once I have this, once I've
• 33:11
  gotten to that point, I'm awesome.
• 33:15
  I've got it all. It's awesome.
• 33:17
  Bullshit. It's the same thing.
• 33:19
  You see somebody, somebody gets in recovery and then then
• 33:21
  they're buying trucks and cars and planes and boats and
• 33:24
  everything. Because once I get to that or,
• 33:28
  you know, they, they, they get clean and sober and then they're
• 33:31
  struggling in their relationships because they're
• 33:33
  bouncing person to person, they're grasping all these
• 33:36
  things. And the second piece that you
• 33:38
  talked about is this shortcut mentality.
• 33:41
  It is the, it is the, you know, Nutrisystem version of losing
• 33:46
  weight, right? Like, I'm come on, it's, it's
• 33:51
  weight loss is easy. It's not, it's not, it's, it's
• 33:54
  not, it's difficult to do. It's challenging.
• 33:57
  It's but the solution is easy. It's simple.
• 34:00
  Yeah, plus it's simple, but you know, we get these cans of shit,
• 34:06
  boxes of that. Pills.
• 34:08
  Make this pill that I, I have, I now have to take, you know, I'm
• 34:15
  Pensic or I don't even know what it is, but something.
• 34:17
  Like GLP one? Yeah.
• 34:20
  Yeah, it's this will solve my problem.
• 34:23
  No, no, no, no, no. You know what's going to solve
• 34:25
  your problem? There's only one thing.
• 34:28
  There is only one person who's going to solve your problem.
• 34:32
  This guy. It's you.
• 34:33
  It's you. You.
• 34:34
  You cannot. Even if you go, even if you go
• 34:39
  to work some sort of recovery program, go to any of the pick,
• 34:43
  pick a recovery program. You just can't stroll in the
• 34:45
  door and be a lock. You have to do the work.
• 34:51
  Surprise, yeah. As they say, you can't get sober
• 34:54
  through osmosis. As one of my mentors used to
• 34:56
  say, I can't go to the gym. I can't go to the gym and just
• 34:59
  get muscles by by being at the gym and sitting in the sauna all
• 35:03
  day. I love it.
• 35:04
  It's a great point. I think that's a baby.
• 35:06
  That wants to get happiness through osmosis, right?
• 35:12
  I've done a shit ton of meditation.
• 35:15
  That's hard work to do that meditation.
• 35:17
  It is. And we are inundated with apps,
• 35:21
  programs, little Mimi things. I just where you can like
• 35:27
  meditate like a Buddhist monk with 60 seconds of your life.
• 35:31
  I know the secret. I know the secret.
• 35:37
  Yeah. Yeah, right, right.
• 35:38
  Or. Yeah, take these five steps,
• 35:40
  right? 55 steps to be a good meditator
• 35:43
  or a happy person or a better wife or husband.
• 35:46
  Right, Right. Right, Right.
• 35:46
  It's the same thing with psychedelics.
• 35:48
  It's the same. They're pitching that beast.
• 35:51
  And once psychedelics is gone, I don't know, it's gonna be, you
• 35:54
  know, medicinal animals. It's who knows what it's gonna
• 35:57
  be. It's just a long list of
• 35:58
  bullshit. Yeah.
• 36:02
  Yeah, I love it. The work comes from within,
• 36:03
  right? And I, I have to learn to love
• 36:05
  myself, to know myself. I have to know myself first.
• 36:07
  I have to find out who I am, what I'm about, what drives me,
• 36:10
  what makes me do things. And then I have to love that
• 36:12
  self, right. You, you talked about meditation
• 36:15
  and I, I it's an interesting subject for me too.
• 36:18
  Let's pivot into meditation and Buddhism and how that helps you
• 36:21
  you you spent 260 days in silent meditation is.
• 36:26
  That yeah, not all at once. Not all at once.
• 36:28
  I'd be like to be loose I. Didn't eat for 260 days?
• 36:31
  Yeah. I've, I've, you know, 10 days,
• 36:37
  12 days, 11-14 days at a time. Wow.
• 36:40
  And then added them, added them all up.
• 36:43
  And what was that like meditation and recovery?
• 36:46
  Meditation and sobriety are like this form of meditation and
• 36:51
  sobriety are kind of interformed.
• 36:55
  And I'll give you the shortcut piece of this, the shortcut
• 36:58
  piece. Follow.
• 37:00
  Me the the the reason that one of the things that you discover
• 37:09
  in the met people first of all forget they think that
• 37:13
  meditation is supposed to make them farting rainbows and being
• 37:18
  on a clock. That is not the purpose of
• 37:20
  meditation. Absolutely not.
• 37:22
  Never has been ever ever ever. If you are hearing that from
• 37:26
  someone, they are filling you a line of BS Meditation is like
• 37:30
  you talked about going to the gym.
• 37:32
  Meditation is like going to a gym.
• 37:34
  Meditation is like working a recovery program.
• 37:37
  Meditation is like monitoring your food and eating well.
• 37:42
  Meditate you, you monitor your food and eat well, not because
• 37:45
  you're looking for something in that piece.
• 37:47
  You go to the gym not because you love, you know, sweating and
• 37:51
  pumping weights and being uncomfortable.
• 37:53
  You go to the gym because you don't want to have a heart
• 37:55
  attack. You want to be able to go play
• 37:57
  the stairs better. You want to be able to be your
• 37:59
  life better. You, you, all these things are
• 38:01
  geared towards this outcome. That's this our way steps.
• 38:05
  Yes, you work a recovery program, not because you say
• 38:09
  God, since I was a little boy and people said what do you want
• 38:12
  to do when you grow up? I said I'd like to work a
• 38:14
  recovery program and talk to people and and talk about I want
• 38:20
  to talk about all my issues. You work a recovery program
• 38:25
  because it helps you become the person you want to be.
• 38:28
  There's, it's some recovery program that can, there's,
• 38:31
  there's in Page where they talk about promises.
• 38:34
  This is why we're doing it. This is what we're going to get.
• 38:36
  That's why you work the recovery program.
• 38:38
  Same thing with meditation. And what happens?
• 38:41
  That's the truth. If someone's telling you it's
• 38:44
  going to make you fart rainbows, they're whining to you.
• 38:48
  So then what do you do? What happens after you work
• 38:51
  this? What you start to realize is
• 38:54
  that we have these sensations on our body.
• 38:59
  So you start off with like breathing and then you focus on
• 39:01
  sensations and it's that's it. It's very simple.
• 39:04
  You're focusing on your sensations going all the way
• 39:06
  down. But then what happens is while
• 39:08
  you're doing this piece, your relationship with your mind
• 39:13
  comes to play. And what you discover is that
• 39:17
  we're in this on just basic sensations.
• 39:20
  There's pleasant sensations and shitty sensations, good
• 39:24
  sensations and bad sensations. We respond with grasping for the
• 39:29
  good sensations. We want them.
• 39:31
  We, we, we chase them. We can't stand the bad
• 39:37
  sensations. We can't wait for the pain.
• 39:38
  And we build all this drama in our head, huge amounts of drama,
• 39:42
  huge amounts of pieces around those, these sensations.
• 39:47
  And one of the things that you discover is that this is a huge
• 39:52
  insights for people in recovery is that you're not addicted to
• 39:59
  alcohol, you're not addicted to marijuana, you're not addicted
• 40:03
  to cocaine, you're not addicted to heroin.
• 40:05
  You're addicted to the sensations, the pleasant
• 40:10
  sensations that. And so it doesn't matter what
• 40:15
  The thing is, there's a pleasant sensation that comes when you
• 40:19
  buy a car. There's a pleasant sensation
• 40:23
  that comes when you're you're, you're chasing after something,
• 40:27
  right? You're, you're, you're.
• 40:29
  And when and you get that car and then it comes home and it's
• 40:32
  like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I need a now I need a, a
• 40:36
  speedboat right now. That's what you're chasing or,
• 40:40
  or relationships or sex, right? There's a pleasant sensation
• 40:44
  you're surfing around you Internet, porn, whatever.
• 40:47
  And then boom, it's over and and and you're chasing the next
• 40:52
  piece, right? You start off with, you know,
• 40:55
  Internet porn, just watching two people have sex.
• 40:58
  And the next thing you know, you're like watching like, God,
• 41:01
  I didn't even know this was possible yet.
• 41:03
  You just become desensitized to that stuff down here.
• 41:07
  And then it's addiction. You just need more.
• 41:11
  You need. Yeah, chasing that dopamine,
• 41:13
  right? It's dopamine.
• 41:14
  All day the sensation and that was such an insight for me.
• 41:21
  The other piece that happens is that all of these problems and
• 41:25
  this happens in real time. This is not some bullshit.
• 41:29
  Somebody telling you this is not some book you're reading.
• 41:32
  Your experience yourself is that there are pieces on the on a 10
• 41:38
  day course and that you experience balance around that.
• 41:45
  You're not chasing the present, you're not chasing that.
• 41:49
  And you and the balance comes when you are completely in the
• 41:55
  present moment, right? Where do we hear that from?
• 41:59
  One day at a time. Stay in the present moment.
• 42:01
  Live in today, not tomorrow, not this, not yesterday.
• 42:04
  Stay in today. That's where you're going to
• 42:06
  find happiness. But in the actual micro
• 42:09
  application of physical sensations on the body, you find
• 42:16
  that you're coolest, your chillest, your most awesomeness
• 42:20
  comes when you're not chasing them.
• 42:22
  And that happens when you're totally in accepting what it as
• 42:26
  it is as it is, not as you would like it to be, right?
• 42:33
  I love that. And there's a Buddhist this.
• 42:35
  Is my favorite Buddhist race. I talked about it in my books.
• 42:39
  It is Yitabu TA and that is that translates to as it is as it is
• 42:51
  with the people get sober. What do they hear?
• 42:53
  Accept things as they are right? Not not like you want it to be.
• 42:58
  You're not the king of the world.
• 43:00
  Right, right, right. Yeah.
• 43:02
  I'm not the Yeah, I love that. I'm not the sheriff of the
• 43:04
  universe, right. Just because somebody's not a
• 43:06
  living according to my plan. It's OK.
• 43:09
  I don't need to judge things. I don't need to judge thoughts.
• 43:12
  I can just accept them, kind of laugh at them sometimes because
• 43:15
  there are some crazy ones that go through my mind To me today,
• 43:18
  it's like I'm doing that thing again, you know?
• 43:20
  Oh, well, Like what? What is this about?
• 43:23
  Right. And just accepting it and moving
• 43:24
  on. I love that.
• 43:25
  I love that you, you know, you write, Scott, you read a lot
• 43:28
  about grief and healing from grief and life after loss.
• 43:32
  What's your experience with that?
• 43:34
  So you're gonna find this book. Where is this book?
• 43:37
  Here's the other book. I just wrote this book so.
• 43:40
  Come as you are. Come as You are.
• 43:42
  I've written four books on grief and this is the fourth one and
• 43:46
  they're all Come as You Are. Couldn't decide on the title.
• 43:49
  The first one I wrote during COVID was called Come as You
• 43:52
  are, meditation and grief. And then three years later I
• 43:55
  wrote another one. I couldn't think of what to call
• 43:57
  it. So I called it Come as you are
• 43:58
  three years later. And, and now I just wrote this
• 44:02
  one called Come as you are five years later.
• 44:04
  Kind of different snapshots at different places.
• 44:07
  And I have to tell you that I, and I've confessed this on other
• 44:13
  places before. I have, as a therapist, I have
• 44:16
  screwed a lot of people up by telling them falsities about
• 44:22
  grief, telling them that you know grief is a problem that you
• 44:28
  have to solve. Telling them things like you'll
• 44:32
  get better, What the fuck, you'll get better.
• 44:36
  Says that grief's a problem, right?
• 44:39
  Oh, you just have more work to do.
• 44:41
  Says that grief's something that God has to be fixed.
• 44:45
  I told people in and, and this has been, this model has been
• 44:51
  hijacked and applied to everything, including
• 44:54
  addictions. I remember teaching people in
• 44:56
  this addiction, you know, alcohol is your friend and you
• 44:59
  have to go through a griefing process with your alcohol and
• 45:03
  you have. So right now you're working
• 45:04
  through the stages of grief, anger, denial, bargaining,
• 45:08
  depression. Some you'll get through
• 45:10
  acceptance and you have to work through those stages because
• 45:12
  that's, that's what's going to help you clean, stay clean and
• 45:15
  sober. All bullshit.
• 45:17
  All bullshit. In fact, the person who came up
• 45:20
  with this, this model that has been hijacked, even including
• 45:23
  about grief, she wrote on death and dying.
• 45:28
  Elizabeth Kubler Ross wrote this book and her focus was people
• 45:35
  who had terminal illnesses, people who are dying of cancer
• 45:40
  or some other horrible thing. They're in Hospice, right?
• 45:44
  And the process these people went through dealing with their
• 45:50
  own lack of immortality, their own fallibility, their own
• 45:54
  problems and how they get to the point of kind of being at peace
• 45:58
  knowing that they're going to die.
• 46:00
  That's what this was written about.
• 46:02
  She actually was interviewed in an article many, many years
• 46:06
  later. And they asked her about, you
• 46:08
  know, what do you think about your model that's used in all
• 46:10
  these briefs? She said it was, It's horrible.
• 46:13
  She is the one that came up mom, She said it's horrible.
• 46:15
  But this is not what the intention was.
• 46:17
  This is not how that grief process works.
• 46:20
  If you're grieving, I'm going to, I want you to know this one
• 46:23
  really important fact. If you're grieving, you should
• 46:25
  be proud of that fact, absolutely proud of the pain
• 46:31
  that you're carrying, because that means that you exposed
• 46:35
  yourself and courageously, you exposed yourself honestly and
• 46:46
  you lived. You lived your life in such a
• 46:50
  way that you loved so deeply that you now have this pain that
• 46:57
  you're carrying around with you. You should be excited that you
• 47:02
  live that way, not trying to get that.
• 47:05
  I don't want anybody to take away my grief because that's the
• 47:10
  flip side of the coin. You cannot have light without
• 47:15
  darkness. You can have spring and summer
• 47:19
  without fall and winter. It just doesn't work that
• 47:22
  nothing works that way. You have to have that peace and
• 47:28
  to push that away and for someone to say, get over it or
• 47:33
  you're still grieving is totally disrespectful to the life that
• 47:39
  somebody chose to have with another person or the OR the, or
• 47:45
  the heart that they had for their kid who was shot in school
• 47:49
  or killed in an accident, Right? That's huge to be like, oh, you
• 47:56
  just have to work through it. You haven't done it yet.
• 47:59
  It's just bullshit. Oh, I love that.
• 48:03
  Yeah. And thanks for sharing that.
• 48:06
  I know that that, you know, it's everybody has grief, but yeah,
• 48:11
  for some of us it it hits a little bit harder.
• 48:13
  So I appreciate your vulnerability there and, and
• 48:15
  sharing that. What what does it look like on
• 48:18
  the other side though? Like what is it?
• 48:20
  What is it? Grief is still here.
• 48:23
  If there is another side. There is no other side.
• 48:26
  There's an integration. You just heard it.
• 48:29
  You just heard it in my voice. Yeah.
• 48:32
  It's there. So then here's the piece and
• 48:36
  this is this is this is the important piece to be aware of
• 48:39
  and I want people to hear this clearly.
• 48:42
  The problem is not grief, it's the fueling of the grief.
• 48:50
  The just like the problem is not anger, it's the fueling of the
• 48:57
  anger with resentments and other shit, right?
• 49:01
  The problem is not self pity. Poor me.
• 49:07
  It's the point where you get to pour me, pour me another drink.
• 49:11
  That doesn't happen overnight, right?
• 49:13
  And that, that, that there's a fueling that happens there,
• 49:17
  right? The the problems is the problem
• 49:21
  is in the fueling that that you've, you've here's a here's a
• 49:26
  great example of kind of and we know, we know, we don't freak
• 49:29
  out when people do this. Think of a funny movie you saw
• 49:33
  and you watch that funny movie again.
• 49:35
  Or you tell somebody about that funny movie and it's hysterical
• 49:38
  and you laugh, right? I've seen The Big Lebowski like.
• 49:45
  Great film, I love that. Movie yeah, every time at the
• 49:49
  very end I know it's going to happen and just the look on on
• 49:55
  on his face when when his buddy's ashes flying all over
• 49:59
  him right you're laughing now right, right.
• 50:02
  That's. A great.
• 50:04
  It's if he looks in a fucking Walter all the time.
• 50:07
  Why? I mean, just that it's
• 50:09
  hysterical. People don't look and say, are
• 50:13
  you still laughing about that? You need therapy to get over
• 50:16
  that. You're still laughing about that
• 50:18
  piece that you saw in that fucking movie.
• 50:20
  Come on. You have a problem.
• 50:22
  It's a problem. You've got to work through that,
• 50:24
  right? No, it's not.
• 50:26
  You're being human, right? It's a funny thing.
• 50:29
  You're laughing about it. It's not a problem.
• 50:31
  You're being a human. You've loved deeply.
• 50:34
  Now you're talking about it. It's in the it's in the front of
• 50:37
  your mind and you're feeling grief.
• 50:40
  Celebrate that fact. Don't medicate that fact.
• 50:44
  That's the same bullshit that the osmosis car salesman,
• 50:48
  psychedelic people and and timeshare people want you to do.
• 50:56
  Buy this timeshare and you'll have the best thing.
• 50:59
  If you've ever gone to a timeshare presentation, they
• 51:01
  pull out these albums of like, yeah, everybody's happy.
• 51:05
  No one's fighting over the fact. Yeah, yeah, everybody's happy.
• 51:09
  But look at all the deals because of what you're going to
• 51:10
  get when you buy the timeshare and and that just fuels that
• 51:15
  piece. It's crazy.
• 51:18
  Yeah, I love it. Oh, man.
• 51:21
  Yeah. You know what, Scott?
• 51:22
  I I appreciate you, man. I I learned a lot today.
• 51:25
  I hopefully my listeners, and I'm sure they will, we'll get
• 51:29
  something out of it. Where can we find you, Scott?
• 51:32
  Where can people find you? Social media books.
• 51:34
  How do we buy your books? So the easiest way to find me is
• 51:37
  to just Google. Like at the bottom of my books
• 51:40
  it says G Scott Graham. If you Google G Scott Graham
• 51:43
  author, Google will give you or G Scott Graham books.
• 51:48
  You'll get a ton of links that are available everywhere, in
• 51:51
  print, on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble, on Nook, on Apple, on
• 51:56
  Google Play. They're everywhere, Amazing.
• 52:00
  And a number of them are free. A number of them are free.
• 52:02
  Wow. Awesome, amazing.
• 52:05
  Well, I had a great time. Thank you so much for coming on
• 52:08
  and and making time for me and my listeners.
• 52:10
  I appreciate you and keep doing the the good work.
• 52:12
  We do. We're going to have to come
• 52:14
  back. We didn't even talk about the
• 52:15
  Buddhist book here. You have to come and talk about
• 52:17
  Buddhist cycle. Book.
• 52:18
  We'll do another one. Yeah.
• 52:19
  And then I wrote a book on the bucket list.
• 52:21
  I'm using a bucket list because people are grasping things,
• 52:25
  right. You use the bucket list to
• 52:27
  reverse engineer your life so that you're living a life that's
• 52:32
  in lineman with your bucket list.
• 52:33
  It's for people who say, I don't know what the hell I want to do
• 52:35
  with my life. Well, you have a bucket list.
• 52:38
  Let's come up with the bucket list and then work backwards and
• 52:40
  design your life. And then you don't need the
• 52:42
  bucket list, because you're totally living a life that's
• 52:44
  perfect. Love that, love that.
• 52:47
  Perfect for you, right? Perfect for you.
• 52:50
  Exactly. Perfect for you, yeah.
• 52:52
  Yeah, amazing. Well, thanks, Scott.
• 52:54
  I appreciate you. Thanks.