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Amerithrax · Conspiracy! The Show

0:09
Speaker 1: Destroy wait true in trance A check.
0:17
Speaker 2: Pas ad Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy The Show. I'm
0:29
Speaker 2: Adam Todd Brown.
0:30
Speaker 1: Who are you, Connor mcspaden.
0:32
Speaker 2: We are your goddamn hosts. That's week.
0:34
Speaker 1: That's right, Connor. How's it going? It's going good man.
0:37
Speaker 1: I had to hurt you scared this week, but I
0:39
Speaker 1: beat the case. Me and the me and the old
0:42
Speaker 1: lady live to live to rob another bank, you know
0:45
Speaker 1: out here in these uh and we've and you know,
0:48
Speaker 1: I've lived a very long and sexually irresponsible life. So
0:51
Speaker 1: to know that Tony Sobrano can drive back to the
0:53
Speaker 1: suburbs and his Chevy Suburban and live to grill another
0:57
Speaker 1: day is very It's very it feels very good to
0:59
Speaker 1: contine and you getting away with it.
1:01
Speaker 2: He dodged a bullet man, congrats.
1:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm riding high on that news. That's when
1:06
Speaker 1: when you think you got herpes for three days and
1:08
Speaker 1: then you don't have herpes, you got a good two
1:10
Speaker 1: weeks to just positive energy in front of you. You know,
1:13
Speaker 1: it kind of reframes things.
1:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, I knew a girl in high school for who
1:17
Speaker 2: for about four hours thought she had aids. Oh my god,
1:22
Speaker 2: and then the doctor called her back after four hours
1:24
Speaker 2: and was like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no no,
1:27
Speaker 2: we mixed up your results.
1:28
Speaker 1: Sorry it was Brittany with two t's. Yeah, are bad.
1:32
Speaker 2: Imagine those four hours.
1:35
Speaker 1: Well, there's a there's a Canadian TV show called Kenny
1:38
Speaker 1: Versus Spenny, one of the greatest pieces in the media
1:41
Speaker 1: ever made. These two guys compete in these ridiculous challenge
1:44
Speaker 1: who can lose the most weight, who can drink the
1:46
Speaker 1: most beer? And they all we they sabotage each other
1:49
Speaker 1: like twelve year old edge lord boys. Great, and there's
1:53
Speaker 1: a great episode where for the entire show, Kenny Convincedspenny
1:57
Speaker 1: that he has aids. He gets this really nice fake
1:59
Speaker 1: letter written up, he colludes with all these like doctors
2:03
Speaker 1: he knows, and the contest is who is funniest, And
2:07
Speaker 1: his whole thing is just like, isn't it funny that
2:08
Speaker 1: I made this guy go do a comedy routine? But
2:11
Speaker 1: in the build up to that, I convinced him that
2:13
Speaker 1: his life is over and he wins. The guy has
2:17
Speaker 1: a complete emotional breakdown. It's unbelievable stuff.
2:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds great. The only other time I've heard
2:24
Speaker 2: of someone faking to the people around them that they
2:27
Speaker 2: have aids was a guy on a true crime show
2:31
Speaker 2: who was absolutely murdering people.
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Speaker 1: Also, that's it. Well, that's a good sympathy move. And
2:35
Speaker 1: now that I think about it, Kenny versus Spend, he
2:37
Speaker 1: really is kind of a one on one spy versus
2:39
Speaker 1: spy mk ultra with the level of gas lighting and
2:43
Speaker 1: subversion that goes on, Like the way like when you
2:46
Speaker 1: see this man manipulate and mold this other, weaker, less
2:49
Speaker 1: aggressive man like silly putty in his hands, you'll see
2:53
Speaker 1: how a little LSD and a couple of hot girls
2:55
Speaker 1: can really give you the spider network that you need
2:59
Speaker 1: to manipulate media landscape and the culture at hand within
3:02
Speaker 1: your country. So it's a it's a it's a it's
3:06
Speaker 1: in a way a sophomoric template for the deep state.
3:11
Speaker 2: I think that's the perfect description for Kenny versus Spenny.
3:15
Speaker 1: I agree.
3:16
Speaker 2: It kind of ties into what we're talking about this week.
3:20
Speaker 2: We're talking about some media deception. I would argue, this
3:24
Speaker 2: is a weird thing.
3:25
Speaker 1: I had never kind of like Richard Jewell meets Martin Scarelli,
3:31
Speaker 1: you know.
3:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had never really looked into our topic. This week,
3:36
Speaker 2: which is the two thousand and one anthrax attacks. For
3:40
Speaker 2: some reason, in the lore of the year two thousand
3:43
Speaker 2: and one, this has been overshadowed. I don't know why
3:47
Speaker 2: did something else happen in two thousand.
3:49
Speaker 1: One it was I remember it in the way more
3:51
Speaker 1: distinctly than the nine to eleven attacks, you know, because
3:54
Speaker 1: I was mostly at this time upset about the fact
3:57
Speaker 1: that they were interrupting you gioh broadcast with meaningless news,
4:01
Speaker 1: and I couldn't follow his journey through Battle Kingdom towards Pegasus,
4:07
Speaker 1: the evil overlord of this Jeffrey Epstein island where children
4:10
Speaker 1: would compete in card games in order to win prizes
4:14
Speaker 1: and kill each other's very It's really a truly probably
4:17
Speaker 1: where the guy got the fucking idea from you, if
4:20
Speaker 1: we could break that down some point on the show.
4:23
Speaker 1: But I remember as like the second and third week
4:25
Speaker 1: of all this shit unfolded, it was the anthrax and
4:27
Speaker 1: that was like kind of sky. I was like, oh shit,
4:29
Speaker 1: they're just like because I could, like you know, I
4:31
Speaker 1: was had a good imagination. I was the only child.
4:33
Speaker 1: I was like, you could fucking proliferate this stuff. Everybody's
4:36
Speaker 1: they could kill everyone in America, they could do a
4:38
Speaker 1: whole fucking you know, plague coup, and I was like,
4:42
Speaker 1: damn dude, you know that freaked me out, kept me
4:44
Speaker 1: up at night. So Anthraxinoy was because I'm like, I
4:46
Speaker 1: don't live any near any big buildings. I'm in fucking Chino,
4:49
Speaker 1: Like where you're gonna bomb the fucking Citizens Business Bank.
4:52
Speaker 1: Suck my dick.
4:53
Speaker 2: Yeah. This kind of made what happened on nine to
4:56
Speaker 2: eleven seem like it was going to be an ongoing thing.
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Speaker 1: It felt like, oh shit, that was Act one of
5:02
Speaker 1: the new shadow war being wages in America. It totally
5:05
Speaker 1: got everybody in the what do we need to do
5:07
Speaker 1: to stay safe mindset, which, as we found out in
5:12
Speaker 1: ensuing years, was a very valuable mind state for the
5:16
Speaker 1: public to have in regards to everything that the people
5:18
Speaker 1: in power are trying to do.
5:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it I remember this happening and everyone talking
5:26
Speaker 2: about having sipro, which was some kind of antibiotic, and
5:31
Speaker 2: I remember as soon as this happened, everyone was adamant
5:34
Speaker 2: that they needed prescription drugs to fight against anthrax.
5:38
Speaker 1: And even then it was kind of the first wave
5:40
Speaker 1: of like hand sanitizer shortage in a way.
5:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it if people don't remember this happened.
5:46
Speaker 1: That was the Alex Jones like freeze dried you know,
5:49
Speaker 1: food of the time, because like that is like such
5:52
Speaker 1: a funny like closet industry is like the people that go,
5:55
Speaker 1: how do we take advantage of any mass paranoia in
5:58
Speaker 1: our culture to sell like fucking safety guaranteeing doomsday devices
6:03
Speaker 1: to you know, age yourself in this upcoming apocalypse? And
6:07
Speaker 1: they almost never get used. They almost never really, no
6:11
Speaker 1: one's ever like fucking thank god we had that zipro
6:13
Speaker 1: on hands that really can't Like no, you probably take
6:16
Speaker 1: it when you get a YaST infection because you think
6:17
Speaker 1: it might you know, it's like some shit like that
6:19
Speaker 1: that you just throw out in ten years.
6:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, same with hydroxychloric one.
6:22
Speaker 1: Now totally fucking perfect analog.
6:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. And if people don't remember, this happened the week
6:28
Speaker 2: of September eighteenth, which not to be a math nerd
6:32
Speaker 2: about it, but that's exactly one week after nine to eleven.
6:35
Speaker 1: It is, that is seven days.
6:37
Speaker 2: And this case is also known.
6:40
Speaker 1: As a marathrax, which I think it'd be funny if
6:43
Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden was in this cave, Like do you
6:44
Speaker 1: think they're gonna I mean, I know it's soon, but
6:46
Speaker 1: do you think they're gonna do anything for the week
6:48
Speaker 1: of Versery. I mean, I just feel like this is
6:51
Speaker 1: going so well. We totally kicked off this war that
6:54
Speaker 1: they wanted. You know, they Seia loves us. Keep the
6:58
Speaker 1: momentum going, Flowers. I mean, they know where to reach us.
7:01
Speaker 1: They've got the red phone.
7:03
Speaker 2: The fuck Americathrax is a cool, fucking name.
7:06
Speaker 1: That is a fucking sick name. That's a good Lincoln
7:08
Speaker 1: Park bootleg that never came out, you know.
7:11
Speaker 2: And these attacks consisted of letters containing anthrax spores that
7:17
Speaker 2: were mailed to several news media offices and politicians. They
7:21
Speaker 2: went in. They came in two waves, the first World
7:24
Speaker 2: postmarked from Trenton, New Jersey, five in total, sent to
7:27
Speaker 2: ABC News, CBS News, NBC News, the New York Post,
7:32
Speaker 2: and The National Inquirer. First of those four outlets are
7:36
Speaker 2: all located in New York City. The Inquirer letter was
7:39
Speaker 2: sent to American Media Incorporated, the Inquirer's publisher in Boca Raton, Florida.
7:44
Speaker 2: Fun Fact Cracked magazine was also published by American Media
7:50
Speaker 2: Incorporated at the time, and as a result, their offices
7:53
Speaker 2: were shut down by the two thousand and one anthrax attacks.
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Speaker 1: And you guys could have been like the og Charlie
7:59
Speaker 1: hebdo if that had had gone down, you know, the
8:01
Speaker 1: cartoonist praying for the Cracked team.
8:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was back when Cracked still thought magazines were
8:07
Speaker 2: going to be a viable business option and.
8:10
Speaker 1: Few years it was going to be CDs or iPods.
8:13
Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, you know, we were all
8:15
Speaker 1: just riding high on j low hits and you know, yeah,
8:18
Speaker 1: I remember around in our new affordable and reliable Toyota camrays.
8:22
Speaker 1: We couldn't have a care in the world.
8:23
Speaker 2: I remember when the first Amazon Kindle came out and
8:28
Speaker 2: Cracked wrote this article about how fucking ridiculous the idea
8:34
Speaker 2: of having something to haul books around is when books
8:37
Speaker 2: already exist and you can just carry books, and it's like, man,
8:40
Speaker 2: no one wants to carry fucking books. That's why you
8:43
Speaker 2: graduate from school so you don't have to carry books anymore.
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Speaker 1: The worst years of your life are the ones where
8:48
Speaker 1: you're carrying books, you know.
8:50
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this first wave of the letters is sent
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Speaker 2: out on October fifth. Robert Stevens, who worked for another tabloid,
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Speaker 2: owned by AMI.
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Speaker 1: You know, I honestly, I really can't get over the
9:00
Speaker 1: fact that Crack did not have its characteristic foresight and
9:04
Speaker 1: nostra damus like ability to predict the culture because they've
9:08
Speaker 1: always been on the real cutting edge of of of
9:11
Speaker 1: honesty and media and in courageous takes. Yeah, this is
9:17
Speaker 1: These are the people behind nine different articles titled histories
9:20
Speaker 1: eleven Craziest Generals. Yeah. I would have thought that they
9:23
Speaker 1: would have had a keener eye for history in the
9:26
Speaker 1: arc of human spirit. Anyway, I'm sorry, I just I was.
9:29
Speaker 1: I was a little taken aback, and.
9:30
Speaker 2: That's why they're shut down now shuddered. That's not true.
9:34
Speaker 2: They still exist, just barely.
9:36
Speaker 1: Uh. There were two more letters that were still like
9:38
Speaker 1: eBaum's world, They're hanging on.
9:42
Speaker 2: Uh. On October fifth, Robert Stevens, who worked for another
9:45
Speaker 2: tabloid owned by AMI, died of what was eventually found
9:49
Speaker 2: to be anthrax infection. Two more letters, both marked with
9:52
Speaker 2: the same Trenton, New Jersey postmark, were sent to Democratic
9:56
Speaker 2: Senators Tom Dashel of South Dakota, who was the Senate
9:59
Speaker 2: majority leader at the time, and Patrick Lahy of Vermont,
10:02
Speaker 2: who was the head of the Senate Judiciary Committee. The
10:06
Speaker 2: Dasher letter was opened by an aid on October fifteenth,
10:09
Speaker 2: and the government mail service was subsequently shut down. The
10:12
Speaker 2: Lahy letter was discovered unopened in an impounded mail bag
10:16
Speaker 2: a day later. The attacks eventually killed five people and
10:19
Speaker 2: infected another seventeen. Several copycat letters were sent also, but
10:24
Speaker 2: none were found to contain anthrax other than those we
10:27
Speaker 2: just mentioned.
10:28
Speaker 1: So, I mean, this thing's got a little bit of
10:29
Speaker 1: a body count now in America. This was the first
10:33
Speaker 1: time I feel like we'd really had a taste of
10:36
Speaker 1: kind of Gabby Gifford's type shit and low level political terrorism,
10:41
Speaker 1: like that guy that was shot in the baseball field
10:43
Speaker 1: not too long ago by the I don't know. I
10:45
Speaker 1: guess they're trying to make him out to be some
10:47
Speaker 1: kind of crazy Bernie guy. I don't really remember what
10:49
Speaker 1: happened with that too, But we didn't have that wasn't
10:53
Speaker 1: something that you saw as like a thing happening every
10:55
Speaker 1: few years and our culture that was pretty shocking, and
10:58
Speaker 1: this was another really kind of like, oh my god,
11:00
Speaker 1: we never thought we could be attacked in American soil.
11:02
Speaker 1: It's been since Pearl Harbor. Oh my god, we never
11:04
Speaker 1: thought that our political leaders would be you know, subject
11:07
Speaker 1: to like fucking you know, third world type like letter
11:11
Speaker 1: bomb coups and assassination, and we thought that we totally
11:14
Speaker 1: had a handle on this. So it was a it
11:16
Speaker 1: was another kind of cracking of the seal of fear precedence.
11:22
Speaker 2: You know.
11:22
Speaker 1: It was just things that we were suddenly worried about
11:25
Speaker 1: that we had not been worried about for a long time.
11:27
Speaker 1: We'd had a pretty safe and you know, seemingly quiet
11:32
Speaker 1: domestic life here in America. In our politics, I mean,
11:35
Speaker 1: we didn't We don't even have like fun arguments like
11:37
Speaker 1: they have in England. Like you see clips where like
11:39
Speaker 1: they stand up and they go the Prime Minister bra
11:43
Speaker 1: Jeremy Corbin and he goes, yeah, right.
11:47
Speaker 2: Part workers.
11:50
Speaker 1: Right right, No, you know, like the fucking it's tight,
11:53
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's lit. We don't even have like
11:56
Speaker 1: anything that dramatic. It seems so hum drum. It's designed
11:59
Speaker 1: to be kind of forgotten about and for the the
12:01
Speaker 1: bougie upper class, and you know then it's just kind
12:04
Speaker 1: of like the sports page for rich people, so that
12:07
Speaker 1: like all this shit happening all and unfolding like that
12:09
Speaker 1: they're being five people dead, some you know, in relatively
12:12
Speaker 1: significant positions in media. It almost felt like, okay, well,
12:15
Speaker 1: what are the fucking free press next? Like turned up
12:17
Speaker 1: the temperature from like, I mean nine to eleven, took
12:20
Speaker 1: us all to it like at least a fucking immediate
12:24
Speaker 1: and never dropping below seven. This was like, all right,
12:27
Speaker 1: well now we're at like an eight and a half nine.
12:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it The only thing I can think of
12:33
Speaker 2: that is sort of reminiscent of this was the unibomber attacks, because.
12:38
Speaker 1: Those were that's a very good point. Yeah, those were.
12:41
Speaker 2: Politically motivated, but they were domestic terrorism, and the concern
12:46
Speaker 2: here was that this was radical Islam on the problem.
12:51
Speaker 1: It was, well, there was there was two sets of
12:54
Speaker 1: notes created, right, two different kind of boilerplate emails that
12:58
Speaker 1: they fired off, and they they were all they're written
13:01
Speaker 1: cryptically and the interesting Adam's got the copy. I'm shure
13:04
Speaker 1: it'll come up in a second. But that was it
13:06
Speaker 1: was clear like you know, whoever was behind this was
13:09
Speaker 1: was doing it in the name of a lobby that
13:11
Speaker 1: you know, a white guy in a fucking cheaps Ford
13:14
Speaker 1: code or you know who you know, whoever actually did
13:17
Speaker 1: this ship. So yeah, I mean that that's that was
13:20
Speaker 1: that was they wanted to take it in that direction,
13:22
Speaker 1: take it in the Iraq direction. Yeah, you know, yeah,
13:26
Speaker 1: which is very conspicuous, like pulling back and looking at
13:28
Speaker 1: the big picture to to like implicate Iraq in this
13:31
Speaker 1: and then really is funny Trump to have testing results
13:35
Speaker 1: that you know, claim the presence of an Iraq specific
13:38
Speaker 1: sub chemical and this makeup and it was all there's
13:42
Speaker 1: the smoking gun is very odd. Yeah, it's like they
13:45
Speaker 1: do you know, any call anything called like whatever they
13:48
Speaker 1: put to be seen in this gesture is strange.
13:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all very suspicious. And the the first letter
13:56
Speaker 2: these are this is what the letters that were sent
13:58
Speaker 2: to the New York Post and and be said nine
14:01
Speaker 2: to eleven oh one, this is next. Take penicillin now,
14:05
Speaker 2: death to America, death to Israel. Allah is great man.
14:09
Speaker 2: I hope my neighbors in the other offices heard me
14:12
Speaker 2: saying very clearly can't wait to get swatted in the
14:15
Speaker 2: middle of the podcast.
14:17
Speaker 1: I like the guys, like the guys in the in
14:20
Speaker 1: the in the terrorist cave, sitting around like trying to
14:22
Speaker 1: write this as a group, like sitting in front of
14:25
Speaker 1: like Google Translate on ALTA Vista, you know, and then
14:28
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine on their dial up connection just like,
14:31
Speaker 1: Allah is great. That's good. We can't lose that. That's definitely.
14:35
Speaker 1: We're all in agreeents, that's the closer. We want to
14:37
Speaker 1: get Death to Israel in there. I don't know, this
14:42
Speaker 1: pretty bad. Maybe we should say, okay, don't take penicillin?
14:46
Speaker 1: Is it take or not? We don't have time. We
14:48
Speaker 1: just got to get this out the door. We're gonna
14:50
Speaker 1: just start the printing over.
14:51
Speaker 2: You know, in the spelling of penicillin way off.
14:54
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, misspelled right, Oh yeah, they spelled p E
14:58
Speaker 1: N A C I L I N I Like the
15:00
Speaker 1: biochemist who's made this stuff doesn't real he's just like
15:03
Speaker 1: a you know, it's my assistant, all does that shit?
15:06
Speaker 2: And the letters addressed to dash Olin lay he said
15:09
Speaker 2: nine to eleven, oh one, you cannot stop us. We
15:12
Speaker 2: have this anthrax. You die now, are you afraid? Death
15:16
Speaker 2: to America, Death to Israel, Allah is great.
15:19
Speaker 1: That's a copy from an episode of That's just South
15:22
Speaker 1: Park copy. I think that they use it.
15:24
Speaker 2: Sounds like it.
15:25
Speaker 1: Yeah.
15:26
Speaker 2: All of the letters were copies that were made with
15:28
Speaker 2: a copy machine, and the originals were never found ooo,
15:34
Speaker 2: which that's smart.
15:35
Speaker 1: That's a smart move, No for sure. Yeah yeah, I
15:37
Speaker 1: mean you don't want Batman getting in there and looking
15:40
Speaker 1: at well, this kind of graph it only comes from
15:43
Speaker 1: the south side of Gotham. You know, you got to
15:45
Speaker 1: cover your tracks. So that's that's pretty much it. Where
15:48
Speaker 1: like all that kind of like you know, evidence sort
15:51
Speaker 1: of dead ends, like from the actual scent materials you have,
15:54
Speaker 1: the h you have where they're postmarked from, you know,
15:57
Speaker 1: obviously probably meant to be deliberately misleading and okay, and
16:00
Speaker 1: then they find a few people with what a few
16:03
Speaker 1: sort of like strands and strands that kind of point
16:06
Speaker 1: them in these directions, and you know, this is something
16:09
Speaker 1: that seem pretty plausible, and they pretty they get to
16:11
Speaker 1: work pretty quickly and starting a narrative. They seem to
16:14
Speaker 1: you know, use their new Patriot Act hours and all
16:16
Speaker 1: that shit, and they seem to just get it, you know,
16:20
Speaker 1: settled in their own minds relatively quickly. After this comes out,
16:23
Speaker 1: as people always try to do, after some big America
16:26
Speaker 1: shaking tragedy happens, you try to go, Okay, well it
16:28
Speaker 1: was this guy, but you got shot by that other guy,
16:30
Speaker 1: and that's all folks.
16:31
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, And in this case, the first suspect
16:36
Speaker 2: they identify is Iraq. The right after this happened that well,
16:42
Speaker 2: not right after, but the last week of October two
16:44
Speaker 2: thousand and one, ABC News ran an article with this headline,
16:48
Speaker 2: troubling anthrax additive found and according to their reporting, this
16:53
Speaker 2: is this.
16:54
Speaker 1: Anthrax additive in your kitchen could be killing you.
16:57
Speaker 2: This is a quote from their article. A second test
17:00
Speaker 2: of the anthrax lace letter sent to Senator to Senate
17:04
Speaker 2: Majority leader Tom Dashel points to the presence of a
17:07
Speaker 2: troubling chemical additive for well placed and separate sources told
17:12
Speaker 2: ABC News that initial tests detected benton nite and at
17:16
Speaker 2: the time, the only country that was known to use
17:19
Speaker 2: benton nite to produce chemical weapons was Iraq. And this
17:23
Speaker 2: is another quote from the article. It means to me
17:26
Speaker 2: that Iraq becomes the prime suspect as the source of
17:29
Speaker 2: the anthrax used in these letters. That is former UN
17:33
Speaker 2: weapons inspector Timothy Traven. And ABC News is the one
17:37
Speaker 2: that really picked up this claim and ran with it
17:40
Speaker 2: for weeks and weeks and weeks.
17:42
Speaker 1: And if you're so hungry for anything, people just wanted
17:45
Speaker 1: to know who did this to us in general after
17:49
Speaker 1: nine to eleven, and that any kind of scoop or
17:53
Speaker 1: take or leak was prolifically really proliferated very quickly, just
17:58
Speaker 1: because it's kind the beginning of twenty four hour news
18:00
Speaker 1: and everybody needed to talk about So it was a
18:03
Speaker 1: really good time for ideas like these to just like
18:07
Speaker 1: take off, and if somebody had a narrative they wanted
18:10
Speaker 1: to push, you could probably get it out there and
18:12
Speaker 1: thriving pretty well in a really worried, you know, public conscious.
18:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was the point in history where Americans tied
18:20
Speaker 2: anthrax and chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein in their head. Yeah,
18:26
Speaker 2: and that ends up becoming pretty consequential because it's part
18:30
Speaker 2: of our reasoning for invading Iraq in two thousand and three,
18:34
Speaker 2: along with our claims that they were buying yellow cake uranium,
18:38
Speaker 2: which they weren't.
18:39
Speaker 1: They had those big like aluminum tubes that they were
18:41
Speaker 1: saying were for something they weren't for. You know, they
18:44
Speaker 1: had like five or six sort of Timmy hit me
18:48
Speaker 1: stories and then you know, just made the case.
18:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in the next State of the Union after this,
18:54
Speaker 2: George W. Bush accused Saddam Hussein in Iraq of developing
18:59
Speaker 2: weaponized anthra during his famous Axis of Evil speech. So
19:03
Speaker 2: this moment, this ab this series of ABC News reports
19:07
Speaker 2: where they quote four well placed government sources that said
19:12
Speaker 2: basically Iraq was involved in this. That's where we end
19:15
Speaker 2: up tying Iraq to all of this. But the thing
19:17
Speaker 2: is it was false. It wasn't that. It's not even
19:21
Speaker 2: that they tested it and found bentonite and then follow
19:24
Speaker 2: up tests prove that was incorrect. There were just never
19:27
Speaker 2: any tests at all that showed any traces of betonite.
19:32
Speaker 1: But it was a totally fabric fabricated thing that came
19:34
Speaker 1: out through four people within news organizations, which you know,
19:38
Speaker 1: Lord knows, the CIA wouldn't have anybody working there. Uh no,
19:42
Speaker 1: definitely not not the kind of person you'd like to
19:45
Speaker 1: be able to, you know, leak false information and uh
19:48
Speaker 1: and control u a media from the shadows not and
19:51
Speaker 1: nothing you'd need in the CIA. But uh, yeah, no,
19:55
Speaker 1: it's very conspiguous. It's very odd that it would come
19:58
Speaker 1: from four different people. Obviously, shows signs of collusion and
20:02
Speaker 1: uh and some sort of more you know, secret intent
20:06
Speaker 1: behind the whole leak. So I don't know, it's a
20:09
Speaker 1: it's all very strange more questions, right.
20:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it raises the question if someone is out
20:16
Speaker 2: there actively lying about the origins of this chemical weapon,
20:22
Speaker 2: that raises the question, well, were they involved in these attacks?
20:26
Speaker 2: Like did they facilitate these attacks just to push that ritis.
20:30
Speaker 1: So we can kind of working to cover for somebody.
20:32
Speaker 1: Is this sort of a thing, like hey, let's do
20:34
Speaker 1: some damage control and get everybody going on this, right.
20:37
Speaker 2: But it ends up that that report ends up being discredited.
20:41
Speaker 2: ABC News didn't even fully retract that report until two
20:45
Speaker 2: thousand and seven.
20:46
Speaker 1: I believe, Oh wow, Okay, it took them a while.
20:50
Speaker 2: All during that time, the FBI had already decided there
20:54
Speaker 2: was most likely a domestic source behind it, and by
20:58
Speaker 2: June two thousand and three, the gull Verna meant took
21:00
Speaker 2: a really interesting step that they had never done before.
21:04
Speaker 2: And what they did is they named an official person
21:07
Speaker 2: of interest before he had ever been charged, before anything
21:11
Speaker 2: legal hit happened, he was just out running free. The
21:14
Speaker 2: FBI names this guy Steven hat Phil and.
21:17
Speaker 1: I believe he was named publicly as a person of interest,
21:20
Speaker 1: which is like that to me seems so fucked up
21:23
Speaker 1: in a world with a legal system and you know,
21:26
Speaker 1: rights to privacy and things like this, and you know
21:29
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff that was ignored pretty consistently
21:35
Speaker 1: throughout the post nine to eleven era by the Bush administration.
21:39
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like really strange to me to go like,
21:42
Speaker 1: well then, like I don't know, Like, aren't you worried
21:44
Speaker 1: the guy's got a fucking Swiss passport and a buddy
21:47
Speaker 1: done in Boca Raton, like you want to let him know.
21:50
Speaker 1: It's just Theah, the whole thing is odd to me.
21:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a former virology researcher at the US
21:56
Speaker 2: Army Military Research Institute for Infectious Diseases at Fort Dietrich,
22:01
Speaker 2: and he'd actually been under constant surveillance for more than
22:05
Speaker 2: a year before that, because I mentioned earlier there were
22:09
Speaker 2: some hoax letters that were sent out. One of those
22:11
Speaker 2: went to a Microsoft office in Nevada, and it had
22:14
Speaker 2: a Malaysian postmark, and Steven Hatfield's girlfriend had moved to
22:19
Speaker 2: the US from Malaysia, which interesting, but it's also circumstantial evidence.
22:25
Speaker 1: It's not I mean, I can't imagine a virologist needed
22:28
Speaker 1: to get into some kind of ninety day fiance situation
22:31
Speaker 1: to get laid. I mean no, I've always known virologists
22:34
Speaker 1: to be a really robust and kind of talkative sort
22:37
Speaker 1: of social group. I find them to have their own
22:39
Speaker 1: sort of boisterous charm and humor, and you know, they're
22:42
Speaker 1: always singing arousing virology songs when they get together at
22:47
Speaker 1: parties and bars and places like this. So it's hard
22:51
Speaker 1: for me to put that one together that he needs
22:52
Speaker 1: to get some pussy from Malaysia sort of trucked in.
22:55
Speaker 2: I just maybe she got more game than that. Maybe
22:58
Speaker 2: she was just also very interested in virology.
23:01
Speaker 1: That's you know, I know the Malaysians are passionate about
23:04
Speaker 1: uh intecrine systems, and I don't I'm running out of
23:09
Speaker 1: things I know to continue with this character. Uh yeah, no,
23:12
Speaker 1: I mean they it seems to me like they kind
23:14
Speaker 1: of went through. Okay, who's got feasible access to anthrax?
23:19
Speaker 1: Let's find somebody, Let's just see if anything fits. Let's
23:22
Speaker 1: jump at every shadow. Let's spend billions and jillions of
23:25
Speaker 1: dollars of people's money just fucking spinning our wheels in
23:28
Speaker 1: this and looking at all the possible suspects domestically, which sure, yeah,
23:32
Speaker 1: you know, hey, that's I suppose that's what I want
23:34
Speaker 1: a government to do. But they find this guy, they
23:36
Speaker 1: find a couple tidbits on him, and then they name
23:40
Speaker 1: him publicly as a person of interest and just go,
23:42
Speaker 1: all right, well, yeah, I enjoy being a private citizen
23:44
Speaker 1: now when everybody's super nationalistic and fucking afraid and yeah,
23:49
Speaker 1: pumped up and like, you know, you know, ratting out
23:51
Speaker 1: their neighbor and afraid of Muslims and fucking protesting mosques
23:55
Speaker 1: and like all right, yeah, just fucking add that to
23:57
Speaker 1: the fucking pile of shit for the wolves.
23:59
Speaker 2: And it's it's not like there wasn't a bunch of weird,
24:02
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence on top of the Malaysia thing.
24:05
Speaker 1: It looks for you know, it looks a little fucked up.
24:07
Speaker 2: Yeah. They also were suspicious because another hoax letter that
24:11
Speaker 2: was sent to Tom Dashel's office a few weeks after
24:14
Speaker 2: that real one was found to have been sent from London,
24:17
Speaker 2: and Stephen Hatfhil was in London around the time that
24:20
Speaker 2: letter was postmarked interesting, and the FBI also interviewed a
24:25
Speaker 2: writer named Timothy Meyer who had interviewed Stephen hat Phil
24:28
Speaker 2: for an article about how a person can make biological
24:31
Speaker 2: agents at home. Oh so Okay, he's definitely someone that
24:37
Speaker 2: would be on the radar. But he's also a classic
24:41
Speaker 2: example of something that we used to absolutely love doing
24:45
Speaker 2: in this country, and I feel like we've shied away
24:47
Speaker 2: from it a little bit, but that is trying people
24:50
Speaker 2: in the media before they're ever charged with a crime.
24:53
Speaker 2: Like Scott Peterson, I think is a great example of that.
24:57
Speaker 2: He's still in prison, but his death sentence was just overturned.
25:01
Speaker 2: If you really look into the Scott Peterson case, there's
25:04
Speaker 2: not any actual evidence against him. They were just like,
25:08
Speaker 2: why'd you buy a boat? And he went to prison basically.
25:10
Speaker 1: Ye.
25:11
Speaker 2: Richard Jewell is another good example where sure they the
25:15
Speaker 2: FBI suspected him, So what they did is they just
25:19
Speaker 2: fed a bunch of their suspicions to the media and
25:22
Speaker 2: then the media publishesm and now everyone thinks Richard Jewell
25:26
Speaker 2: is the Olympic bomber, and then eventually it comes out, no,
25:29
Speaker 2: he wasn't.
25:30
Speaker 1: That was in a way they're using kind of like
25:32
Speaker 1: an investigational bully pulpit and just taking advantage of their
25:37
Speaker 1: sort of on a institutional immunity and the justice system
25:41
Speaker 1: and an American you know, crime and punishment that they
25:44
Speaker 1: can just seed their kind of narrative out to the
25:47
Speaker 1: world and then go and then you know, when we
25:50
Speaker 1: get to trial together, we'll come mop up the scraps.
25:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that seems like kind of what they
25:57
Speaker 2: were planning to do. They were just everything they would
26:00
Speaker 2: find about Steven Hatfill during all this, they would feed
26:03
Speaker 2: it to the media, and the media would report it.
26:05
Speaker 2: And this guy was just like, all right, I'm not
26:08
Speaker 2: charged with anything. I didn't do this, but now everyone
26:11
Speaker 2: thinks I did it. Yeah, this is a quote from him.
26:15
Speaker 2: It's like death by a thousand cuts. There's a sheer
26:18
Speaker 2: feeling of hopelessness. You can't fight back. You have to
26:22
Speaker 2: just sit there and take it day after day. The
26:25
Speaker 2: constant drip drip drip of innuendo a punching bag for
26:30
Speaker 2: the government and the press. And the thing was, I
26:33
Speaker 2: couldn't understand why it was happening to me. I was
26:35
Speaker 2: one of the good guys.
26:37
Speaker 1: These are always the most fascinating stories in the conspiracy world.
26:41
Speaker 1: Is one the well intended sort of like cogna machine
26:47
Speaker 1: type government guys that really aren't involved in anything malicious
26:50
Speaker 1: and probably think like certain aspects of my work is bullshit.
26:53
Speaker 1: Some of it's mildly important. Overall, I'm glad, I'm whatever.
26:56
Speaker 1: It's a gig, you know, I'm trying. They're just a unambitition.
27:00
Speaker 1: It's just and generally warm and you know, civic minded
27:03
Speaker 1: people that do exist, and you know, you know, sometimes
27:06
Speaker 1: get into positions of power, but you know, most relatively rarely,
27:10
Speaker 1: and even then it's pretty corrupted and molested by all
27:13
Speaker 1: the forces at play you have to ever come to
27:15
Speaker 1: get there. But when these guys get their lives fucking
27:19
Speaker 1: kicked in and their fucking houses raided and their whole
27:22
Speaker 1: fucking world destroyed just because of some kind of Salem
27:25
Speaker 1: witch trial, like you know, public outcry, it's really fucking fascinating.
27:31
Speaker 1: And it reminds me a lot of the John ronson
27:33
Speaker 1: books of you been publicly shamed on the internet, just
27:35
Speaker 1: like what it's like like living as a pariah in
27:38
Speaker 1: these moments. And then, you know, how do you really
27:41
Speaker 1: clear your name? You don't want to be making a
27:42
Speaker 1: bunch of public statements as a private individual. That just
27:45
Speaker 1: turns you into like that Martin Scurelli is the whole
27:47
Speaker 1: thing up, you know, like the guys who just shut
27:49
Speaker 1: the fuck up and go to trial just generally just
27:51
Speaker 1: do better. So yeah, it's just kind of stuck there,
27:53
Speaker 1: you know, sitting in this house, probably not working, probably
27:55
Speaker 1: like you know, borrowing money from his brother in law
27:58
Speaker 1: and shit, just going well fuck me.
28:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, it, by all accounts, nearly drove him insane. Yeah,
28:06
Speaker 2: And at one point a few years later, a reporter fast.
28:09
Speaker 1: Lating on the government level, we've all had a bad
28:11
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend or two. But I mean to get CNN
28:15
Speaker 1: involved in calling you names because you won't give the
28:17
Speaker 1: iPod back. I mean it's dark, Yeah, it really is.
28:21
Speaker 2: And at one point years later, a reporter for The
28:23
Speaker 2: Atlantic asked Stephen Hatfill how close he came to suicide
28:27
Speaker 2: during this ended up being a six year ordeal with
28:30
Speaker 2: the FBI, and his response was, that was never an option.
28:34
Speaker 2: If I would have killed myself, I would have been
28:37
Speaker 2: automatically judged by the press and the FBI to be guilty.
28:40
Speaker 1: And I think, so bad motherfucker. Yeah that's some that's
28:43
Speaker 1: some fucking brave heart Tupac shit. You know, you might
28:46
Speaker 1: defeat the flesh, but you'll never ever kill me. You know,
28:49
Speaker 1: I feel like that would I feel like if I
28:51
Speaker 1: was ever in such a situation, my pettiness would also
28:53
Speaker 1: keep me alive. I think I would just go no, no,
28:56
Speaker 1: I will, I will be vindicated. I want there to
28:58
Speaker 1: be fat guys on the internet arguing on my behalf
29:01
Speaker 1: someday on podcasts with you know, reasonable to medium sized listenership.
29:07
Speaker 1: I want. That's the legacy I want. So yeah, I
29:10
Speaker 1: found that quote fun.
29:12
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, if something like this happened to me,
29:14
Speaker 2: I would have to stick it out because I still
29:16
Speaker 2: have a podcast network I have to run.
29:19
Speaker 1: I feel like you live for this shit. I feel
29:20
Speaker 1: like it would I feel like it would be like
29:22
Speaker 1: a kind of it'd be this sort of like I
29:24
Speaker 1: don't know, Rocky moment where you'd see all you know,
29:27
Speaker 1: you'd see Apollo Creed and all your all your past
29:30
Speaker 1: cohorts and collaborators coming to your defense, you know, to
29:33
Speaker 1: fight the evil empire. I think it would be a
29:36
Speaker 1: terrific grassroots campaign for your your freedom.
29:40
Speaker 2: Either that or that all align with the government. Who knows.
29:43
Speaker 1: That's the thing. I mean, we've always played this like
29:45
Speaker 1: snakes and just waited to see way to back a winner.
29:48
Speaker 1: So I suppose we can't expect complete loyalty.
29:52
Speaker 2: So at one point the FBI eventually came to realize
29:57
Speaker 2: what Stephen Hatfield had been saying this entire time was true,
30:01
Speaker 2: which was that he never had access to anthrax even
30:05
Speaker 2: when he was working at Fort Dietrich all those years.
30:09
Speaker 2: So he ends up filing a lawsuit against the FBI
30:12
Speaker 2: and the Justice Department, claiming they invaded his privacy and
30:16
Speaker 2: ruined his career. And he fucking won five point eight
30:20
Speaker 2: two million dollars.
30:22
Speaker 1: Not bad.
30:22
Speaker 2: They had to pay him half of that up front
30:25
Speaker 2: and then one hundred and fifty thousand dollars annuity.
30:28
Speaker 1: For him he took like the lottery deal.
30:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's probably calling that fucking if you have
30:34
Speaker 2: structured payments but you need cash. Now called JG. Wentworth.
30:39
Speaker 1: He got a JG. Wentworth in the in the mix.
30:43
Speaker 2: Imagine if you robbed a JG. Wentworth bus with all
30:46
Speaker 2: those people with annuities on it.
30:48
Speaker 1: Man, Oh yeah, and you funnel him out to like
30:51
Speaker 1: a like a holding complex and just set up a
30:54
Speaker 1: bunch of dummy addresses for their checks or something. You know,
30:57
Speaker 1: that way when they take old people down to Florida
30:59
Speaker 1: and get them all loaded up with vike it in
31:01
Speaker 1: and they take him to a casino and then steal
31:02
Speaker 1: all their pills.
31:04
Speaker 2: It's a good scam if you can run it. Yeah,
31:06
Speaker 2: So they eventually exonerate Stephen Hatfill, even though there was
31:11
Speaker 2: a lot of weird circumstantial evidence. It was just circumstantial evidence.
31:15
Speaker 2: The settlement with him was announced in June two thousand
31:19
Speaker 2: and eight, and less than two months later there was
31:21
Speaker 2: another settlement or another announcement. A man named Bruce Ivans,
31:26
Speaker 2: a top government scientist who had worked at Fort Dietrich
31:28
Speaker 2: for eighteen years, had committed suicide after being informed that
31:33
Speaker 2: the FBI was planning to charge him with carrying out
31:36
Speaker 2: the two thousand and one anthrax attacks Row, and up
31:41
Speaker 2: to this point his name had not been disclosed at
31:44
Speaker 2: all publicly.
31:45
Speaker 1: No, he hadn't gotten the Hatfield treatment, right, And.
31:49
Speaker 2: He was a microbiologist who actually helped the FBI analyze
31:54
Speaker 2: the material recovered from one of the anthrax letters. And
31:57
Speaker 2: he died after ingesting a massive of prescription tail and
32:01
Speaker 2: all mixed with codeine, which meant the charges leveled against
32:06
Speaker 2: him by the FBI would never go to court and
32:09
Speaker 2: we would never know if they were actually true or not.
32:12
Speaker 2: Very convenient.
32:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's like one of these like, did this
32:15
Speaker 1: guy did somebody walk in with a gun and say, hey,
32:19
Speaker 1: write a note neath these pills, you know? Or did
32:22
Speaker 1: he actually do the shit and you know, just not
32:25
Speaker 1: want to fucking face the consequences. What's interesting to me
32:28
Speaker 1: is a guy who worked around chemical poisons and knows
32:31
Speaker 1: a lot about how they react to the body killed
32:33
Speaker 1: himself with just garden variety, thailand all and codeine, which
32:37
Speaker 1: I know from having friends who have survived suicide attempts.
32:40
Speaker 1: Using these kinds of pills is extremely fucking painful. It's
32:44
Speaker 1: a horrible, horrible way to die. Uh So I kind
32:49
Speaker 1: of go, I think of a guy like this, and
32:51
Speaker 1: I go, this guy does the exit bag. If he's
32:52
Speaker 1: actually killed himself, he fills up a big balloon full
32:55
Speaker 1: of helium and lays down and goes to sleep. He
32:57
Speaker 1: he gets some kind of like painless, you know, tink
33:00
Speaker 1: sure that he can synthesize in a garage lab, like
33:03
Speaker 1: unless it was a real I just got to work
33:04
Speaker 1: up the courage and do this tonight, not to analyze
33:06
Speaker 1: the poor guy's fucking suicide or whatever, But it just
33:09
Speaker 1: that felt conspicuous to me. That makes me go, I
33:12
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like this guy would kill himself smarter.
33:15
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, if you immediately trust this story that
33:18
Speaker 2: he committed suicide, you trust the government way too much.
33:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean they basically tried to pin it
33:25
Speaker 1: on one guy and then they realized, oh fuck, we
33:28
Speaker 1: ruined his life and now he owned five million dollars okay,
33:31
Speaker 1: are bad and spent how much god knows how much
33:34
Speaker 1: money investigating and persecuting the guy in the first fucking place. Uh,
33:37
Speaker 1: And then you get another guy and he looks good,
33:39
Speaker 1: and you go, we can't really do this in the media. Again,
33:42
Speaker 1: this is gonna there's a bad taste in people. What
33:44
Speaker 1: if we just make it look like, oh, this guilty motherfucker,
33:47
Speaker 1: you couldn't face you attacked America, you couldn't even look
33:50
Speaker 1: Lady Justice in the ass. And uh, you know, seems
33:54
Speaker 1: like the people have mostly gone oh yeah, okay.
33:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems kind of like what they wanted Stephen
33:59
Speaker 2: Hafil to do, Like, yeah, he's right. If he had
34:01
Speaker 2: killed himself, people would have just been like, oh, I
34:03
Speaker 2: guess that was the guy makes perfect sense, yep. And
34:06
Speaker 2: it I have this theory that conspiracy theory fans and
34:11
Speaker 2: true crime fans are like the Republicans and Democrats when
34:16
Speaker 2: it comes to audiences. They have very strict sets of
34:21
Speaker 2: beliefs that conflict with each other.
34:23
Speaker 1: And one of them, this is a very good take, okay,
34:27
Speaker 1: one of them.
34:28
Speaker 2: Is the idea of coincidences, where if you're a true
34:32
Speaker 2: crime fan and you're watching I don't know, like you
34:37
Speaker 2: hear all the time in true crime shows, these detectives
34:40
Speaker 2: or true crime writers will be like, I don't believe
34:43
Speaker 2: in coincidences. There's no such thing as a coincidence. But
34:46
Speaker 2: then you tell those same true crime fans something like
34:51
Speaker 2: this where it involves the government as opposed to scary
34:54
Speaker 2: serial killers, and they'll go, oh, that's just a coincidence,
34:58
Speaker 2: Like until the government tells me they murdered the guy.
35:01
Speaker 2: I don't believe they did it, And it's like that
35:04
Speaker 2: you how like, you can't have it both.
35:06
Speaker 1: You will suspend. You'll suspend the disbelief for like a
35:10
Speaker 1: cool story, but you won't do it for something where
35:15
Speaker 1: there are larger, more sinister, and more the organizations at
35:21
Speaker 1: play that have a much more you know, solid outlook
35:24
Speaker 1: than just the chaos and revenge of a serial killer.
35:27
Speaker 1: People that have larger political forces are trying to affect
35:31
Speaker 1: in the world. So it's just there's a lot more
35:34
Speaker 1: grounds and basis to buy into, you know, corruption, conspiracy,
35:39
Speaker 1: cover up, the false implications, you know, things like this.
35:43
Speaker 1: Like it just makes a lot more sense to engage
35:45
Speaker 1: with those hypotheticals in this space when you're dealing with
35:48
Speaker 1: this kind of subject matter than you know, than it
35:50
Speaker 1: does in any kind of garden variety murder.
35:53
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite intersections of conspiracy theory
35:57
Speaker 2: and true crime is this the that a serial killer
36:01
Speaker 2: named Edward Wayne Edwards killed Jimmy Hoffa. Interesting because Edward
36:06
Speaker 2: Wayne Edwards, he definitely committed a lot of murders. His
36:10
Speaker 2: kids think he was the Zodiac Killer. They also think
36:13
Speaker 2: he was the Atlanta child murderer. And what he was
36:16
Speaker 2: was a killer of opportunity. If he felt like he
36:19
Speaker 2: could frame someone for a murder, he would commit that
36:22
Speaker 2: murder and try to frame that person for it. And
36:25
Speaker 2: he was in Jimmy Hoffa's inner circle at the time
36:29
Speaker 2: Jimmy Hoffa was murdered. Wow, And there was this big
36:33
Speaker 2: argument between Jimmy Hoffa and this other, this mobster, and
36:38
Speaker 2: they think that's the guy who eventually killed Jimmy Hoffa,
36:40
Speaker 2: although they've never proved it, but because that argument happened
36:44
Speaker 2: a few days beforehand, they're like, oh, well, that's obviously
36:47
Speaker 2: what got him killed.
36:49
Speaker 1: I was he fled to believe by recent reports in
36:52
Speaker 1: the media that it was actually Robert de Niro that
36:54
Speaker 1: killed Jimmy Hoffa. Uh So I'd have to do my
36:57
Speaker 1: own research on that, but that's certainly interesting. Yeah, that's cool.
37:01
Speaker 1: Though I don't read much serial killer stuff. It just
37:05
Speaker 1: never really quite did it for me. I find it
37:08
Speaker 1: more upsetting than interesting. But yeah, it's some of the
37:10
Speaker 1: Zodiac stuff and the guy I've heard a little bit about.
37:12
Speaker 1: The kids think he did it, and it's all very interesting. Yeah,
37:15
Speaker 1: the fact that he's also in Jimmy like, how much
37:18
Speaker 1: fucking drama and insanity is enough in your life? And
37:21
Speaker 1: you're like, look, I've been quietly killing people, you know,
37:24
Speaker 1: without the knowledge of my close family for about fifteen years.
37:27
Speaker 1: I'd like to also be a deal with mob assassination, paranoia,
37:32
Speaker 1: and you know, associated with one of the most controversial
37:34
Speaker 1: men in modern life.
37:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jimmy Hoffa gave this guy a job immediately after
37:39
Speaker 2: he got out of prison, and one of the lines
37:43
Speaker 2: of thinking are. One of the possible theories is that
37:46
Speaker 2: Edward Wayne Edwards saw that argument between Jimmy Hoffa and
37:49
Speaker 2: that other mobster and was like, Oh, if I killed
37:51
Speaker 2: Jimmy Hoffa right now, they're gonna think that guy did it,
37:54
Speaker 2: and yeah, I'll just get away with it. It's an
37:56
Speaker 2: interesting theory because he was there at the time, Like, if.
38:00
Speaker 1: That's his profile, I mean, if that's what he does,
38:02
Speaker 1: if his thing is just like if I can get
38:04
Speaker 1: away with it, I'll do it. You know. It's like,
38:06
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's guys who have a cheat on your
38:08
Speaker 1: wife policy that's very similar, you know, Like, yeah, that's
38:12
Speaker 1: just kind of like one of those like primal mind
38:14
Speaker 1: states that people can like sort of compartmentalize and just
38:19
Speaker 1: live in life. Yeah.
38:21
Speaker 2: Yeah. And So back to Bruce Ivans. After he committed
38:25
Speaker 2: suicide and all these stories came out about the FBI
38:29
Speaker 2: planning to charge him, people started looking at the FBI's
38:32
Speaker 2: case against him, and it turned out that, once again,
38:36
Speaker 2: it was all very circumstantial. He had access to the
38:40
Speaker 2: strain of anthrax in question, and he worked long nights
38:44
Speaker 2: at the lab right before the attacks happened. That's it.
38:47
Speaker 2: That's that's what they had on him. Other than that
38:50
Speaker 2: he was just kind of a weirdo, which Stephen Hatfhil was.
38:54
Speaker 2: Also Stephen Hatfhil was. They described him almost as like
38:58
Speaker 2: an athlete, like a like a big, menacing jock, but
39:01
Speaker 2: he was also a scientist and a very outspoken scientist,
39:05
Speaker 2: and not a lot of people liked.
39:06
Speaker 1: Him interesting a macho scientist. Yeah, I mean the again,
39:11
Speaker 1: people who have the more obscure and education required and
39:16
Speaker 1: kind of elites or interesting your job like, people get
39:20
Speaker 1: those jobs so that they can indulge their insane personality,
39:24
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like I've been doing that
39:26
Speaker 1: my entire life. I've been pursuing a career that allows
39:28
Speaker 1: me to live like a ridiculous asshole. So I mean,
39:31
Speaker 1: I I the eccentric character portrait doesn't really move the
39:36
Speaker 1: needle much for me. But I mean, you know, it's
39:38
Speaker 1: it's obviously a compelling set of circumstantial evidence to at
39:41
Speaker 1: least look into the guy that fucking he was around
39:43
Speaker 1: the shit he had the shit at the time. You know,
39:45
Speaker 1: It's like this shit anthrax is super fucking rare. It's
39:48
Speaker 1: hard to make. It's like, you know, if you're going
39:51
Speaker 1: after a terrorist cell that put it together, it's pretty
39:53
Speaker 1: hard to find it. And Okham's razor. I mean, what
39:56
Speaker 1: if it's just some one of our guys that was
39:58
Speaker 1: trying to make some kind of big point. I mean,
39:59
Speaker 1: there's people with fringe beliefs about the government, in the
40:02
Speaker 1: government related to the government. Shit that's ancillary to the government,
40:05
Speaker 1: and every once in a while, you know, it's not
40:07
Speaker 1: the craziest thing. Someone decides to be a cowboy and
40:09
Speaker 1: go make their point with a couple fucking loaded letters.
40:12
Speaker 1: So it's all interesting. Shit. The suicide is really fucking weird.
40:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, the suicide is weird. And what's interesting about him
40:20
Speaker 2: as opposed to Stephen Hatphil is the FBI announced this
40:24
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, so there was none of
40:26
Speaker 2: that nine to eleven hysteria swirling around by this point.
40:30
Speaker 1: It was like war fatigue by this point, right, So.
40:34
Speaker 2: When they announced this case, instead of the media just
40:38
Speaker 2: jumping on board with their story right away, several media outlets,
40:41
Speaker 2: including The Washington Posts, The New York Times, and The
40:44
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal all called for an independent investigation into
40:49
Speaker 2: the FBI's claims, and Senator Patrick Lahey stated at a
40:53
Speaker 2: Senate hearing in September two thousand and eight that he
40:56
Speaker 2: didn't believe the FBI's case against Evans or that Evans
41:00
Speaker 2: acted alone. GOP Senator Arlen Spector at the same hearing
41:05
Speaker 2: told the FBI they could never have obtained a conviction
41:08
Speaker 2: against Evans in court based on their case.
41:12
Speaker 1: Goddamn strong words, you know, And is there anything is
41:16
Speaker 1: there any reason to kind of inspect the agenda of
41:18
Speaker 1: these senators. I mean that stuff and what I read
41:22
Speaker 1: looked pretty like, I don't know, like just civics just
41:25
Speaker 1: I don't know whatever trying to. I mean, Patrick sort
41:28
Speaker 1: of add some sort of like a justicy thing to
41:31
Speaker 1: your resume in between you know, writing kickbacks for you know,
41:35
Speaker 1: blah blah blah.
41:36
Speaker 2: I mean Patrick Lahey was one of the senators the
41:39
Speaker 2: letters were addressed to. So that's pretty I mean, yeah,
41:42
Speaker 2: an if anyone was gonna really want the actual perpetrator caught,
41:47
Speaker 2: it would be that guy.
41:48
Speaker 1: No for sure. Yeah yeah, So I mean that looks
41:51
Speaker 1: pretty pretty black and white there. And it's again, it's
41:54
Speaker 1: crazy to me that these people all work for the
41:56
Speaker 1: same kind of group, but they are so fucking they
42:00
Speaker 1: spend so much time and money, just fucking fighting each
42:03
Speaker 1: other's best interests, you know what I mean, Like, yeah,
42:06
Speaker 1: how is this an efficient system at all? Where there's
42:09
Speaker 1: just two highly funded groups of powerful assholes that you
42:13
Speaker 1: can barely decide on that get to just make these
42:17
Speaker 1: insane fucking you know, maneuvers against one each against one
42:20
Speaker 1: another at your expense. It's so fucking crazy to me.
42:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why the government operates unchecked, because there's always
42:27
Speaker 2: one half of the country that's going to support everything
42:29
Speaker 2: they do, no matter what side is in office. That
42:32
Speaker 2: is the case. One half of the country will always
42:35
Speaker 2: be like, yep, that's right. So we're fucked. We can
42:38
Speaker 2: never get anything done.
42:39
Speaker 1: Nope.
42:39
Speaker 2: And the FBI, in response to all of this questioning
42:45
Speaker 2: of their charges against Bruce Ivans, they decided what they
42:49
Speaker 2: were going to do was have the National Academy of
42:51
Speaker 2: Sciences convene a panel to review their genetic findings about
42:55
Speaker 2: the origins of the anthrax used in the attack, because
42:59
Speaker 2: they had, according to them, traced the same anthrax spores
43:04
Speaker 2: used in the attack to a test tube that was
43:07
Speaker 2: in Bruce Ivan's office, and they felt that this was
43:11
Speaker 2: their strongest evidence against him, so they asked the National
43:15
Speaker 2: Academy of Sciences to convene a panel, assuming that the
43:18
Speaker 2: National Academy of Science is going to is going to
43:20
Speaker 2: come back and go, yeah, the FBI nailed it, this
43:24
Speaker 2: is your guy, and they did not.
43:26
Speaker 1: It's wow dead.
43:27
Speaker 2: Their report concluded that the FBI overstated the strength of
43:32
Speaker 2: genetic analysis, linking the mailed anthrax to a supply cap
43:36
Speaker 2: By Bruce Ivans.
43:38
Speaker 1: I mean, well, that shit is all I mean, it's
43:39
Speaker 1: all got to be pretty chemically similar. I do like
43:41
Speaker 1: the idea that there's a group of people that can
43:43
Speaker 1: get together and be like ancestry dot com for a
43:45
Speaker 1: specific sample of a horrible brain eating virus.
43:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I like, I just think it's funny that
43:52
Speaker 2: the FBI enlisted their help and then they get this
43:55
Speaker 2: report back and.
43:56
Speaker 1: It's like fuck and they totally got wamp womped. Yeah.
43:59
Speaker 1: I mean that's the thing that you can like, Oh,
44:00
Speaker 1: it chose a thirty eight percent similarity, and then you
44:02
Speaker 1: could just take that and go shows the significant fucking
44:06
Speaker 1: genetic similarity. And it's like one of these things that
44:08
Speaker 1: sounds smart until you look at the nitty gritty of it,
44:12
Speaker 1: and it's probably more nuanced, you know, And it's like
44:14
Speaker 1: I feel like if you again, like what they're doing
44:16
Speaker 1: here is trying to build a narrative and other fucking
44:18
Speaker 1: create another culprit, and they just they threw out another
44:21
Speaker 1: fucking piece of sort of aluminum tube, yellowk uranium, you know,
44:27
Speaker 1: type bullshit, shaky evidence, and then you know they got smoked.
44:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, And to this day they still claim Bruce Ivans
44:36
Speaker 2: is the perpetrator and it's never really been investigated beyond that.
44:40
Speaker 2: And to me, the beyond who did this, the biggest
44:45
Speaker 2: unanswered question is who were those four well placed sources
44:50
Speaker 2: that sold ABC News that IRAQ was involved, Because.
44:53
Speaker 1: Like, if you talk about somebody that like I don't
44:55
Speaker 1: know would perhaps I don't want to say it deserves
44:58
Speaker 1: to get docksed or anything like that, but if you're
45:00
Speaker 1: going to out somebody publicly and sort of call somebody
45:03
Speaker 1: to accountability for their actions in this case, it's like
45:07
Speaker 1: the people that were behind the raw Raw Invade IRAQ narrative,
45:12
Speaker 1: when the answers have all unfolded to be much more
45:15
Speaker 1: complicated and interesting, it's like, that's very suspicious. Happened real
45:20
Speaker 1: fucking quick. It was discredited pretty thoroughly. Like that seems
45:24
Speaker 1: to be where you'd where you'd want to look in this,
45:28
Speaker 1: you know shit, to really kind of get to the
45:29
Speaker 1: bottom of it.
45:30
Speaker 2: To me, yeah, because it happened at a time when
45:33
Speaker 2: we know the American government, the George W. Bush administration specifically,
45:39
Speaker 2: was just itching for a reason to invade Iraq, and
45:43
Speaker 2: so nine to eleven happens, and like most of the
45:47
Speaker 2: hijackers are Saudi's, so of course we blame that on
45:50
Speaker 2: Iraq first. And then this happens, and someone, some well
45:55
Speaker 2: placed source with knowledge of government testing of ANIS reaches
46:01
Speaker 2: out to ABC News and is like, Iraq did it,
46:04
Speaker 2: so we should probably just go to Iraq and start
46:06
Speaker 2: a war, right.
46:07
Speaker 1: I hope Dick Cheney has like some kind of deathbed
46:09
Speaker 1: confessional where he's just like I would just stay up
46:13
Speaker 1: like fucking railing lines and leaking false information to the media,
46:18
Speaker 1: and it just it was fucking I used to ride
46:20
Speaker 1: the lightning every night, like he had an addiction to it.
46:23
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, it's you never totally makes sense.
46:26
Speaker 1: There could be someone on that guy's team, and that
46:27
Speaker 1: guy he was, you know, from everything I've read about
46:32
Speaker 1: that administration a little bit more, you know, jingoistic and
46:35
Speaker 1: fucking gung ho about invading people and shit. So yeah,
46:38
Speaker 1: I mean there's a great quote from someone that worked
46:40
Speaker 1: in the White House at that time that was would
46:41
Speaker 1: walk around and he'd say, yeah, good morning, Dick, you
46:44
Speaker 1: blow wipe any small countries off the map this morning?
46:46
Speaker 1: And he go, you know, that's the thing about this
46:48
Speaker 1: job that I really enjoy. You know, he's just a
46:51
Speaker 1: cold motherface. So I mean, there's no shortage of like
46:53
Speaker 1: opportunistic and calculating individuals in that group that might do
46:57
Speaker 1: some shit like that. But you know, even then, if
46:59
Speaker 1: it's not for CIA guys, FBI guys in the fucking
47:02
Speaker 1: news media that all got together and did this, like
47:05
Speaker 1: who planted the seed? Where's their fucking info from? Like,
47:07
Speaker 1: you know, somebody knows an answers, somebody has some fucking
47:10
Speaker 1: insight here that they're you know, keeping themselves. And I
47:12
Speaker 1: get journalistic integrity, but I don't know, it seems like
47:15
Speaker 1: this is an actual issue of you know, domestic terror
47:18
Speaker 1: with our own you know, elements were own public life,
47:21
Speaker 1: perhaps you know, warrants for their search.
47:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I understand journalists don't want to burn their sources,
47:29
Speaker 2: but in this case, these sources were involved in an
47:34
Speaker 2: active disinformation campaign.
47:36
Speaker 1: I know you like your dealer, but there's fentanyl in
47:38
Speaker 1: this shit, bro, Yeah, we need answers.
47:40
Speaker 2: They led us into war, and it begs the obvious
47:44
Speaker 2: question if there were government sources who were trying to
47:47
Speaker 2: make this out to be a thing perpetrated by Iraq?
47:51
Speaker 2: Were their government sources behind these attacks? Like it came
47:55
Speaker 2: we know, the anthrax came from Fort Dietrich, which is
47:59
Speaker 2: a government lab. So this was sent by someone in
48:03
Speaker 2: the government. Yeah, and think about the targets. They sent
48:07
Speaker 2: it to the two Democratic senators who would be most
48:11
Speaker 2: likely to oppose an invasion of Iraq, and a bunch
48:15
Speaker 2: of what you would call liberal media outlets and then
48:19
Speaker 2: the Enquirer.
48:20
Speaker 1: But that's like that's the you know, we can kill them,
48:24
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, who's going to complain? You shoed Harvey Levin?
48:28
Speaker 1: Do you think how? You know what I mean? Like?
48:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, And at this time, there weren't all those like Internet,
48:34
Speaker 2: I mean, the Internet was a thing, but like Internet
48:36
Speaker 2: news sites weren't what they are now. So if you
48:40
Speaker 2: could get all of those outlets and those two senators
48:43
Speaker 2: on your side in suspecting that Iraq was mailing anthrax
48:47
Speaker 2: all around the country. That would make getting a war
48:50
Speaker 2: with Iraq signed off on so much easier.
48:53
Speaker 1: I just watched The Sopranos, and this is total mob shit, Like,
48:56
Speaker 1: let me just go over and crack a tail light
48:58
Speaker 1: with a baseball bat and then get him a blender
49:00
Speaker 1: and just say like, hey, shut the fuck up, you.
49:02
Speaker 2: Know, like yeah, yeah, so who knows. I mean, we'll
49:05
Speaker 2: link to a bunch of articles about this on on
49:09
Speaker 2: pops dot com. Glenn Greenwald is a name I'm sure
49:12
Speaker 2: a lot of people recognize, did a lot of reporting on.
49:16
Speaker 1: He was the banker at the Big Bank and Harry
49:19
Speaker 1: Potter I believe exactly. Yeah, and he protected the gold Galleons.
49:24
Speaker 2: He did a whole lot of reporting on this. It's
49:27
Speaker 2: all really interesting, but it I mean, that's kind of
49:30
Speaker 2: where it stands. It's just one of those early two
49:33
Speaker 2: thousands scandals that is kind of forgotten to history.
49:37
Speaker 1: And I don't know, it's like, you know, most conspiracies,
49:39
Speaker 1: they get a it's kind of it's the classic life
49:42
Speaker 1: cycle of like long and confusing public battle about mainstream
49:47
Speaker 1: narrative and the veracity of the facts presented at the
49:50
Speaker 1: time by the people investigating the case at the time,
49:53
Speaker 1: and then just a series of ever untangling and evolving,
49:56
Speaker 1: compelling loose ends that ultimately just produce more unsatisfying questions.
50:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a frustrating one.
50:02
Speaker 1: Because it's like, yeah, there's five people were dead. I mean,
50:05
Speaker 1: this was a huge sort of like push on the
50:08
Speaker 1: scales of public mind and a national attitude about many
50:14
Speaker 1: of the big decisions that would be coming up in politics,
50:18
Speaker 1: you know, at that point in American history. And it's just, uh, yeah,
50:21
Speaker 1: the whole thing just fucking reeks top to bottom, and
50:23
Speaker 1: it seems like, yeah, so on of the government did it,
50:25
Speaker 1: they all covered it up. I can't imagine, you know,
50:28
Speaker 1: that many people actually know who did this or what
50:32
Speaker 1: the fuck happened. And I bet they're pretty fucking I
50:34
Speaker 1: bet they've got a pretty strict sort of no girls
50:37
Speaker 1: allowed kind of policy about everybody, you know, involved in
50:41
Speaker 1: this shit. And it's there was probably gonna die with
50:43
Speaker 1: like seven old white guys, and you know, there'll be
50:46
Speaker 1: another generation of fat guys answering six more open ended
50:50
Speaker 1: questions in twenty years. Yeah, this is all said and done.
50:53
Speaker 2: It's the kind of scandal where if there was government
50:57
Speaker 2: involvement in this. No one on any side in the
51:01
Speaker 2: government is ever gonna want that to come out, because
51:03
Speaker 2: that is like, that is the ultimate crime, Like that's
51:07
Speaker 2: a false flag attack against your own citizens. And we know, yeah,
51:12
Speaker 2: we've at least thought of doing that in the past, but.
51:15
Speaker 1: It has been on many a drawing board basically erased
51:18
Speaker 1: and burned and thrown in a dumpster, you know.
51:20
Speaker 2: But to have it come out that it actually happened
51:23
Speaker 2: like that would just undermine faith in the government altogether
51:28
Speaker 2: on a very massive scale. Yeah, So I don't know
51:30
Speaker 2: if there's any hope of this ever truly being solved.
51:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like all this shit, If it ever
51:38
Speaker 1: is solved, it's through some kind of accident, some sort
51:41
Speaker 1: of like fucking clerical error, and you know, just sort
51:45
Speaker 1: of something that falls through the cracks and the cover
51:47
Speaker 1: up and then some sort of you know, like I said,
51:48
Speaker 1: civic minded, you know, good hearted person that has a
51:51
Speaker 1: government job just goes, oh, well I found something interesting.
51:54
Speaker 1: You know that it's just probably probably going to be
51:57
Speaker 1: in the black file, you know, just one of those
51:58
Speaker 1: things where it's like, well, look, we can just keep
52:01
Speaker 1: creating creepy, fucked up mysteries for everyone that investigates this
52:04
Speaker 1: just indefinitely because we can't. This is gonna it undermines
52:08
Speaker 1: the fabric of our whole you know facade here. Yeah.
52:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, If anyone out there wants to file a Freedom
52:15
Speaker 2: of Information Act request, there is nothing on vault dot
52:20
Speaker 2: FBI dot gov about Steven hat Phil, about Bruce Ivans
52:25
Speaker 2: or anthrax in general. So uh, file it and send
52:29
Speaker 2: me the results. I'm still too terrified to file Freedom
52:31
Speaker 2: of Information Act requests because yeah.
52:34
Speaker 1: It's not something that's something i'd want to burner identity for.
52:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to hit up the government and be like, hey,
52:39
Speaker 2: I think you're up to something. Can you send me proof?
52:42
Speaker 1: Here's my mom at like, there's a flower truck outside.
52:44
Speaker 1: Have you been doing something with my social sequit you no?
52:48
Speaker 2: No, my internet hasn't worked for months now.
52:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's going on?
52:54
Speaker 2: So who knows? I mean, I think the government did this.
52:58
Speaker 2: I think we were trying trying to drum up more
53:01
Speaker 2: support for invading Iraq and this was part of it.
53:06
Speaker 1: And it is a yeah, it is the most obvious
53:08
Speaker 1: explanation to me, you know, And that doesn't.
53:11
Speaker 2: Mean we were trying to kill anyone we're just trying
53:13
Speaker 2: to skip people.
53:14
Speaker 1: Look, they said take penicillin. You know. That was nice.
53:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. That's advice you can use in that situation.
53:21
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know if penicillin will help.
53:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe not.
53:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, who knows, but uh yeah, I think the government
53:27
Speaker 2: did this.
53:27
Speaker 1: And myth busted.
53:31
Speaker 2: I think that's our episode. Do we do? You have
53:33
Speaker 2: any final thoughts on amrathrax.
53:36
Speaker 1: I don't know. I always wait for this kind of
53:38
Speaker 1: shit to come back, Like I feel like there's got
53:40
Speaker 1: to be a cheaper version of this that somebody could
53:42
Speaker 1: cook up, some sort of like four chan anarchist cookbook
53:45
Speaker 1: shit that could make its way around on you know,
53:47
Speaker 1: the internet here and there. Like this is the sort
53:50
Speaker 1: of thing that I'm always like obviously thrilled, but sort
53:53
Speaker 1: of surprised it doesn't happen more, you know, the unibomber stuff,
53:57
Speaker 1: the decent Like it seems like a way to sort
53:59
Speaker 1: of have your cake and eat it too in terms
54:00
Speaker 1: of like most like acts of public terrorism and revenge.
54:04
Speaker 1: It's like if you're gonna go drive your car into
54:06
Speaker 1: a bunch of people at a proud voice saying or
54:08
Speaker 1: whatever your deal is, Like it's just not you're not
54:10
Speaker 1: gonna get away with it. But shit like this, it
54:12
Speaker 1: seems like, well, I can think I'm the smartest guy
54:15
Speaker 1: in the world and pretend I'm running fucking global politics
54:17
Speaker 1: from my my backyard workshop, and I can, you know,
54:20
Speaker 1: see all this shit happen and still live my life
54:23
Speaker 1: and have this exciting, you know, double life as a
54:25
Speaker 1: as you know, a Stalinist bank robber funding the socialist
54:29
Speaker 1: revolution or whatever your deal is. So I don't know,
54:32
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I expect a lot, you know. I feel
54:35
Speaker 1: like this is gonna be one of those things where like,
54:36
Speaker 1: oh my god, that's just like Anthrax, Like, you know,
54:38
Speaker 1: we had all this kind of nostalgia to our worst
54:41
Speaker 1: versions of COVID with SARS and everything else and all that,
54:44
Speaker 1: you know, every mirrors and all this shit that happens
54:46
Speaker 1: every few years. Like this is a big tragedy that
54:49
Speaker 1: I think is gonna, unfortunately, have like a fucking Green
54:53
Speaker 1: Day Douchie type thing one day that really makes it,
54:56
Speaker 1: blows it up and gets it. We'll be there'll there'll
54:58
Speaker 1: be more letters, testing strips and shit you have to
55:01
Speaker 1: buy on fucking cable infomercials right after And yeah, I'm
55:07
Speaker 1: I'm waiting for it. It's it's very scary unnerving stuff.
55:10
Speaker 2: Use code on pops a check out to say fifteen
55:13
Speaker 2: percent off your letter testing strips.
55:15
Speaker 1: You're your infrared X ray letter. You can get it
55:19
Speaker 1: with the tack visor on me TV while you're watching
55:21
Speaker 1: Matt Locke. It's a good product.
55:23
Speaker 2: Get some tactical glasses. Get yourself some letter testing strips.
55:26
Speaker 1: You need to filter sunlight away from your face. At
55:29
Speaker 1: the level of the Navy Seals with the greatest warriors
55:32
Speaker 1: of our country.
55:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, your commute is just like being a Navy seal.
55:37
Speaker 1: You want to have an arm that's just like a
55:39
Speaker 1: loaf of bread with the trisap on top. And your
55:42
Speaker 1: t shirts are too small, but they're just right, just
55:45
Speaker 1: right for you and your tactics.
55:48
Speaker 2: So I think that's our episode. Do we have anything
55:52
Speaker 2: to plug before we get out of here?
55:54
Speaker 1: You can follow my social media. I'm at Connor mcspating
55:57
Speaker 1: on everything that's Connor mixspating. Add to the N two n's,
56:02
Speaker 1: two o's in the first name. Uh yeah, you know
56:05
Speaker 1: it's Twitter and Instagram. Keep up with your boy. Uh
56:07
Speaker 1: you can fucking jokes for kids this month. So I'll
56:09
Speaker 1: be writing family friendly Halloween jokes every day on the
56:12
Speaker 1: internet and you can enjoy those read them to your children.
56:15
Speaker 2: That's always fun. Follow this show on Twitter at Conspira
56:19
Speaker 2: pops and uh. Subscribe to get bonus episodes at patreon
56:24
Speaker 2: dot com, slash on pops or on Popsnetwork, dot Supercast,
56:28
Speaker 2: dot tech Jerks and Uh. We're also going to have
56:31
Speaker 2: an on Conspiracy the Show t shirt available in our
56:35
Speaker 2: Tea public store soon.
56:37
Speaker 1: I gotta get one of those.
56:38
Speaker 2: It looks like a redacted document.
56:41
Speaker 1: That's fun.
56:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, so be on the lookout for that. We'll definitely
56:44
Speaker 2: let you know when it's available. And I think that's it.
56:47
Speaker 2: Let's get the fuck out of here. Connor say goodbye.
56:51
Speaker 1: Is there any Betted still here?
56:54
Speaker 2: Goodbye, everybody.
56:55
Speaker 1: We love you. A Latin latter a bad Namba a
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Speaker 1: Marten data the lab Ababa datable data Data