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From Mommy To Mom: raising kids > adults (with Michelle) · The Habit Lab

• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: We all have areas in our life we might feel stuck or overwhelmed.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: So join me, Jenna Zint, habit coach, teacher, and follower of Jesus, as we go after little bits of better by building offensively small habits that create big impact.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is the Habit Lab Podcast.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Habit Lab.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: We have a special guest with me, my good friend Michelle Rafferty.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, how do you say your last name?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Raftery.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Raftery.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Nope.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron always is like, you get the R and the D, you just gotta throw them in the end.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the right way.
• 1:43
  unknown: Yeah, babe, okay.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Michelle and I actually got to work together for a local ministry for a couple years.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think our friendship history started then.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: But you know when you sp like get to know someone's heart, even in a work environment, like, oh, you're quality.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: And the other, I think probably about a couple weeks ago, we went on a walk that caught up, and I was like, she was telling me these just natural catch-ups, but she had so many good little nuggets that I was like, we need to do a podcast.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I like pulled out my notes and I was like, okay, we could do a podcast this, and then when you shared that.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the fulfillment of that.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very excited.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Michelle.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you guys know because you listen to Jenna, but she's amazing, and so being able to like catch up and have you as a friend and also learning from you has been just such a gift.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm laughing too because your microphone's up and mine's falling slowly.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like a hunched child.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's fine, y'all.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Get that visual image in your head.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Michelle has older kids than me, and she was talking about all the things the Lord has been teaching her and her like her almost like paradigm shift from raising kids to raising adult children.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, this is genius.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's the thrust of the episode today.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: But to start, Michelle, how old are your kids?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my kids are 21, 18, and 16.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And how old were they when they first came into your life?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just kidding.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Did you think they were all zero?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, what?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: That makes no sense.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, go ahead and take it away.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: I loved, I love what you said.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it whole started with like your little phrase for yourself.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um, because so my oldest two are girls, and then the 16-year-old is a boy.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so realizing, okay, I have spent collectively, I don't even know, 40 years parenting, right, between all of them.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had to learn how to parent a girl and I had to learn how to parent boys, right?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're different and their needs are different.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then as they're growing, I'm realizing, oh, like now I have to learn how to parent women, and I'm learning how to parent a man.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's just different.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Their needs are different.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: The input required or asked for is very different.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you do that?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how do you, you know, when they're little and you're shaping, I'll take my son for an example.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're shaping the, you know, kind of the similar things as you are in a girl, like discipline, character, their love for the Lord, all of that kind of stuff.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: But as they grow into manhood, all of a sudden, yes, you're still mom, but you're a woman.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so how you interact with them is a reflection of how they interact in with other women.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of a sudden now, like I in our family, men open doors for women.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're a man and you want the responsibility of a man and be able to derive yourself and be able to make certain decisions, then you also get that part.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so mom doesn't touch door handles because your mommy, your mommy opened doors for you.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Your mommy carried things for you.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: But your mom, who is uh showing you hopefully how to treat your wife someday, actually requires something from you, actually pulls something out of you as a man of like, hey, mom, mom wants this from you.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's kind of an invitation, which has been beautiful because boys are wired the way God created them, they're wired to step into that.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so, even like I noticed probably a month or two ago, he started walking on the outside of the sidewalk when we walk.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like he walks close to the cars.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's what dad does, because that's what a man does, because he's like this physical boundary of protection.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: We were somewhere the other day, and um, because of where we live, there's a large homeless population, and we had to go kind of through like a sketchy area.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we get to the other side, and he was like, Hey, mom, are you okay?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you feel safe?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Of course, son.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and the mommy part of me, which I'm gonna say as like the little boy part of me, I want to be like, Yeah, I felt safe because I would have protected you, buddy.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, I don't need you to protect me, I protect myself.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like that kind of uh like that's what as a mother, everything inside of me, still, if there was danger, everything inside me would protect him, right?
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm a mom.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: But knowing that there is a man being born in there and coming forth, I was like, of course, son, I knew you were there.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I felt safe because I knew you were there.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And to watch him, like his eyes light up and his chest puff out, you know, I'm pretty sure he like was flexing by the time we were there, you know.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: But just the thing of like, I get to do that as a mom.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if I still parented him like I did when he was a little boy, then he's gonna, you know, I mean, how many grown little boys do we have running around?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a mom, I get this front row seat of like, hey, actually, this is I get, I mean, his father shows him how to be a man, but as a woman, I get to call that out of him and give him opportunities to practice where, you know, I mean, even his sisters being like, hey, actually, brother's gonna carry that for you.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I can do that myself.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I understand, but this moment's not actually about you, it's about him.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so obviously, they, you know, we have to do certain things for them as girls and girls transitioning to women, but just realizing my role is totally different now than it was making all the sandwiches and brushing the teeth and all that.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not the hovering mom anymore in any of my kids' lives.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: I so many good things.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the things I even just like how you simplified it to like you need different tools for mommy than you do for mom.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And noticing that shift because it's almost like if you don't make the swap of the approach, like the different method, then almost wondering, like, my question was in my head, like, oh, how many of us moms didn't make the swap and have contributed to the grown boy or the large boys that are now in marriages?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because like there's a piece that we're meant to call them out and change our tools that then would develop what's next in them versus like keeping the same tool set for their whole life.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, that's genius.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have any like thoughts, oversimplifications?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um what would be a mommy role and what would be a mom role?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I also want to say though, before you answer, actually articulating the difference that they're gonna experience your motherhood a little differently is huge.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I've have friends and some of my own expressions of like, oh, actually saying, you know, mom, blah, blah, blah, like mommy would have, but mom helps their brain shift for why there's the shift, like not just feeling the difference, but talking about it too and how it's appropriate.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I just love that.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: But what would you say?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Some categories, the stuff that falls under mommy versus mom.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like, okay, I'll I've focused on the boy part, but let me like bring in the girl part too.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So as they're getting older, you know, you go from um, I've heard the analogy of like you're on the field with them when they're really little, and then you get on the sideline when they're, you know, in their preteen to teens.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then now I'm for my son, I'm still on the sideline.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he can hear me yelling directions from the side, but he's in the game by himself.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's figuring that out.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: My daughters, I'm in the stands.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And my prayer is that I've done such a good job when I was on the field and on the sideline that they look up in the stands every once in a while and like wave at me or look for a sign.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I get to like hold up the biggest cheerleader sign and be like, you are killing it, like you're doing awesome, or like go left, go out for a pass, you know, whatever it is.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: But they they get to choose if they want to look up in the stands for me.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And realizing I can yell and try to coach from the stands, they're not hearing me, and I'm just really frustrated and I have lost my voice by the end, right?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's where we're at.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like with the girls, I'll even like my oldest will call and she'll talk about things that are going on at work or things.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she just recently got engaged and like things that they're navigating, and I'll just listen.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the end, she'll be like, Mom, I'm like, yeah, I'm here.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, but what do you think?
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Do you want me, do you want that, or did you just want to share?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, we know as adults, sometimes you just need to vent.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need like if you go to a friend and they just fix it for you, you're like, Thanks, I'm gonna put you on the list of like fixed friends.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: But if I just want to like process for a second, you know, and then realizing them, she'll say, No, no, no, I want your opinion.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be like, Okay, well, I would do this, but you know, you could also, I've also seen people do it this way and kind of give them options.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas when they were teenagers, I'd be like, Oh no, you live in our house.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is how we, as you know, the Raftery family, this is how we deal with these situations.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yep, you have to clean up your mess because you live in our house.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, oh, you had an argument with, you know, maybe you're an argument with a friend.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, hey, in our house, we clean that up.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like you go back and you own that part.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if she calls and says, Hey, I had this argument with a friend, I'll be like, Oh, I'm so sorry.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm quiet.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And she'll be like, I know I need to clean it up.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or she'll be like, I don't know if I want to clean it up.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, well, these are like, this is why when you were, and I will tell them the why.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very communicative with them of why.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I made a decision when they were young.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, actually, like when they were firstborn, I would think about who do I want to raise and live in a society with when they're 23.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would think about that.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so everything that I did was with that 23-year-old in mind.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm almost there.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've got two more years, and I'm gonna see if we it worked or not.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, it's funny because they all know it, because they'll be like, Yeah, you talk to us like we were groanies when we were little.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, well, probably a little bit, but I'm always explaining, like, hey, we chose this because of this.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: So even in adulthood, there's they have that in the back of like when I raised them, like they knew the why behind like we are a Christ-following family, and so a lot of it was biblically based of like, hey, the scripture says this, so that's why we're choosing this.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: If there wasn't a scripture directly to why am I have to take out the trash, you know, then we would talk about like stewardship or you know, being a part of a community, serving something larger than yourself, you know, those kind of dynamics.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, like as they get older, they have that.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's really important to note that um, you know, if someone's just, you know, their kids are in high school and they're like, oh, I got to transition to raising adults, great.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: If, but you have to focus on that foundation.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if like for some reason you're like, yeah, maybe I didn't do they have no foundation.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now treating them like an adult is probably gonna be clunky because you're just like basically sending feral children out into the world, right?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like that's how it is.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: But if you just like they're older, you can articulate, hey man, I totally didn't make you do chores when you were little because I didn't, I didn't want to.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was scarred from how it was done when I was a kid or whatever.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna work on responsibility and you're probably gonna notice that I'm gonna be mommy for a month or two because we're this is a new muscle we're all learning.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: But my anticipation is by the spring, you're responsible for this because you're grown enough to do this.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: I know you have it in you.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're just learning a new skill right now.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna kind of go back to the basics and then we're so that you know, I mean, even that chores, hey, you know, you your room needs to be cleaned up before you go out.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: As a mommy, I checked every day.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Every day I checked.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, did you clean your room?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: Did you make your bed?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Did you hey, you know, and and would remind now it might be Friday night and you know, they're about to leave for a football game because they want to go, and I'm like, oh, well, did you clean your room?
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the deer in the headlight look of like, oh no, I didn't do that.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, bummer, bummer.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's it.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's all I say, bummer.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And they just turn around and walk back to their room.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing how quickly it gets done whenever they have something, right?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the difference, like that's a real practical, like why?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's still the rule never changed, but the way I'm implementing, hey, you can't, because now I'm thinking, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not coming to your apartment when you're an adult checking every day if you cleaned or not.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I also don't want, you know, human services called because you're living in a cesspool because you never did anything, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, kind of teaching them like some ownership.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you do it along the way, you just got to walk right out to the football game on Friday.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: No harm, no foul.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody can, nobody even thought about it.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't aren't responsible throughout the week, man, that's a bummer because you missed the first quarter.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or, oh man, you didn't get to go at all.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, you like when they're older, you let the consequence speak.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I love, I love what you're saying, how you you did not go after just obedience.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: You actually tied it to the core value and the character trait you're forming.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, it doesn't mean that they have perfect attitudes, but like some parents won't explain the why or like feel defensive, like, do what I say, or etc.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: But you're casting vision for why this isn't just I don't know, robot obedience.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually like what's forming in them, which I I love.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then even hearing how you step back as they grow up, I'm like, oh, that's that is so genius.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then part I've had to find, which I'm not sure, I bet you've done some level you could speak to this, is that when I do step back, as like Audrey's 13 and different things, like, hey, I did that, but now I'm gonna, I expect it to be like when I scale back my oversight, Rocky for a bit, but I verbalize it to her and then expect her to catch up versus like I don't know, rockiness means I failed, or I need to go back in and reclaim that territory, or uh like just other things, like I didn't do a good job, not wasting time and shame, but like just deciding what we're gonna do.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I would have a question of what would you say that when you came up with some of these core values, you're like what you guys don't know about Michelle is she's actually a wonderful balance of what you'd imagine type A.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: So like living out of her core values, obviously having like vision and purpose and being driven and responsible, but then she's not so rigid that she's not flexible or fun, or she lets connection trump her structure.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'd say that's kind of maybe the lid I experience sometimes with more type A people, which Michelle's not like that.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you have this like really sweet spot of balance and purpose.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: How did you know when to let connect, you know, with why you're forming them?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: One, what'd you decide on what was important and what you were building?
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Did you and your husband have a list?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Did someone hand you a list?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: Did you add things as you went and you explained it?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, tell me about that process of deciding what your family creed or culture was.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I'm a little neurotic.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I was convinced when we got pregnant, I was probably ruining however many children's lives we were gonna have.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just was like, oh my gosh, I don't know that I'm gonna do this right.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: Checked out every book in our library that had to do with parenting.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And y'all, I'm talking like things I agreed with and ones that were so far off that I never agreed with, but I read them all because I was like, maybe there's truth in here.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just so concerned about doing it right and and and not messing up, uh, which is laughable for any mom because it took me all of like, I don't know, probably the first 30 minutes and I messed up, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I got frustrated because she wouldn't latch or whatever, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's just how parenting is.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a silly goal.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: But because of that, I did a lot of thought and planning of like, like I said, like who do I want them to be at 23?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want them, first of all, to be radically in love with Jesus.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: I want him to be their best friend.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't care if they're married, I don't care if I have grandkids.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what my goal is that they would be lovers of Jesus.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's number one.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Number two, I don't want them to be a drain on our society.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want when they walk into a room or they move into a town or they become a part of a church or an organization or whatever, it becomes better because they exist in that.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so they serve something bigger than themselves.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I want them to be obedient to God's voice.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: If he asks them to do something scary and crazy, I want them to, you know, so we would start to like, okay, this is what we want from them.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so when they were little, we did little things like, okay, I want you to be, um, I want you to be a giver.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: I want you to, you know, at 23, I want you volunteering for civic organizations.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: So on their second birthday, when they can walk around or their third birthday, we would start at their birthday party, you serve first.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: In our house, we serve first.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that means when the cake is cut, you actually serve each person that came to your party and you give them a piece of cake and you say, Thank you for coming.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for coming, as opposed to at least the American way of like, hey, it's your birthday, you get the first piece of cake.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all about you.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Look, all these people came, it's your day.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Even on your day, you look for a way to serve first.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that became a mantra in our home.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I would make little mantras, serve first.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, if it was time for dinner, and there was one kid that I knew was particularly hungry and just working on developing the character treat of serving, we'd be like, hey, it's your turn to serve everybody's meal.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so they would have to like bring the plates to everybody and then the last one be them.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because why?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was building a 23-year-old that gave back to their community.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't worried about the four-year-old that was hungry.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I knew they weren't really, I mean, we fed them, they weren't really hungry.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: They were gonna be fine.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the three minutes it took, it was almost like that three minutes was building a muscle that you're like, I have more value for the muscle, the strength that you're gonna have than the discomfort you feel in the moment.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and I'm okay with discomfort.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and that was another thing because I know that the Lord and his kindness is okay with my discomfort.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And he can see me flailing around, and I'm like, Don't you care?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, But I'm building something in you.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a mom, I knew I was a reflection.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was the first reflection they were gonna get of what it was like, hopefully, to know the Lord.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, what is he like?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you can trust him because you can trust mom, and mom loves you.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on this tangible presence.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: So now you can hopefully start to build trust in an intangible presence that's with you.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so we would do that.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are some other ones of your so I would say, um, what's obedience?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: I would be like, hey guys, it's time to clean up.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they'd sit there and I'd be like, Hey, what's obedience?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they'd look at me, the first time.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because the mantra was obedience is the first time, the second time is compliance.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And never in the Bible do I ask, do I see the Lord say, Comply with me?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Obey me.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I read that, but I don't read comply with me.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted when the Lord said, Hey, I want you to go here, hey, talk to them, hey, apply for this job, hey, give this to somebody.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted it to be like, Oh, I'm gonna obey.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: That means the first time.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to ask me again, Lord.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was like a huge thing for me.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: So in our family, like, and I know it probably sounds like they're like robots, like, oh, obey the first time, oh, we've got to do it.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I wanted that instilled in them, not and here was the caveat.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: You can ask a question while you're doing the obedience.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: So if I say it's time to take out the trash, my son will do this even now.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: He will stand up walking towards the trash.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, obedience the first time.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Mom asks the first time, and on the way to the trash, he'll say, Hey, mom, I was purging my room and I know I have some stuff, so I was not gonna take the trash out until this afternoon.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Would that be okay if I do it that way?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: While he's going, so he's already showing me his heart, his character is to obey the first time.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I do expect him to have a brain to continue the conversation.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because I also, when the Lord asks him to do something as a grown man with an ad with a family, and you know, he feels like the Lord's like, uproot everybody and move here.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: I want him to say, Yes, sir.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Now, as I'm putting my house on the market and we're doing all this, can we keep talking?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want him to keep having that conversation with the Lord because it's not a servant master relationship.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: There's a relationship there where he gets, you know, we're we're God's sons and daughters, and we get to chat about stuff.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So obedience being the first time, delayed obedience is disobedience.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: So immediately, like there were constant, you know, they're just little mantras that I even see them as adults.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm actually really excited.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: The two that are out of the house, both of them, one has only been out of the house for a couple of months.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: She's already found like two organizations in the state she lives in that she volunteers with on a weekly.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, because you realize like when I go somewhere, I part of my responsibility of reflecting the nature of Christ is that I make it better where I go.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I lend my strength to wherever I am.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so watching that, um, even if like some some of the kids like they may not have been.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus motivated.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: It may not have been like, oh, I've got a good relationship with the Lord, and so I'm doing this.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was just literally like, hey, this is part of being a human being on this earth is we don't live in a bubble.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: What we do affects other people.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so just really like, um, I mean, we would do it even with uh what do you call it?
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, chores when they would get allowance.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like they got paid for chores.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's controversial for some people, but the way that we did it is there were certain chores they got paid for, and there were certain things we called them their bills, and it was stood for like because I live.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I live, I have to do certain things, and those were your bills.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: You had to clean your room, you had to make your bed, you had to, like, there were certain things.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then there were chores that were above and beyond that that you got paid for.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, at the end of the week, if you had done all your chores, and so like, I mean, in our family, you got paid very little for chores.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, they're little, so maybe they're gonna get$2.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, yay.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, but bummer, you didn't pay your bill on Monday and Wednesday and Friday.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you didn't make your bed, you didn't clean your room.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you actually, out of that two dollars you earned, you have to pay your bill.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: You have to pay back because who cleaned your room?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, mom had to go in and clean your room.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to pay me 25 cents a day.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because, and they'll be like, What?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, So there's like an actual consequence in real time.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so for them to like have their little money, and it was it sounds so cruel, but I would give them their money and then I'd be like, Hey, do you remember on Friday when I, you know, and I you and I talked and I reminded you to clean your room and you decided not to?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I went in and I did that for you, and so you actually owe me 25 cents and to watch them with their little quarters in their hands and they're like handing their little quarter back to you, and they're like tears in their eyes, and they're like, But mom, and I'm like, but that's what in in when you're 23, when you're a groany, there are things you have to do just because you exist in this world.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Do you did you say that when you're 23?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So you're casting vision for what you're shaping with them.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's then to be fair, as we're like the bigger conversation of going from kids to adults, like they knew the shift was coming because you were there's um, I can't remember who said it, but someone says, like, begin, oh, I think it's Stephen Covey, begin with the end in mind.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like this idea of you can't know, you can't build something great if you don't know what you're building.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: So even with that, their awareness of feeling the shift in mom as as her involvement decreases and my responsibility increases.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: So when they're experiencing it real time, it's like you've set them up their whole life for this versus like what I almost find that sometimes when we don't purposely transition, it's like um a ripping the band aid off, and they're like 22 and mom's done, and like I shouldn't have to do this, you're an adult, but like they never scaled it back or almost like decreased their dependence on that, you know, like it's almost the us job of then then in bitterness be like, Well, I'm not mom's not doing it for you anymore, you're not a baby versus this thoughtful transition, right?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think that it's not fair.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, nobody we don't, you know, have a baby and then be like, why aren't you cleaning your room?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, no.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: We expect them to grow into that incrementally, right?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think sometimes when we launch kids, we're like, all right, we're done.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yay! Like we get where our jobs are done.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I what I'm realizing, and this is kind of the process I'm in of like, I'm never gonna be done.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I pray that I have the honor to never be done.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: I pray that I have the honor of, you know, when they're in their 40s and 50s calling and being like, hey, mom, I'm watching my kids.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: What was this like for you, mom?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I pray that I still have the opportunity to be mom and that, you know, that invitation from them.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: But we I do think that it's important for them to know, like, hey, if you, you know, it's natural for them to want their freedoms to increase, for their um, you know, ability to do different things increase.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Great, but we have to talk through what that looks like because as that increases in your life, there's other things that are gonna have to increase.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, you can drive now, awesome, great.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: But as that increases, your responsibility to communicate with me, where you are, what you're doing, that increases.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's mom doesn't track you down.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, heaven forbid, mom has to track you down.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not gonna be good for anybody.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, if you want the joy of being able to drive yourself around, now the responsibility of communicating has to increase.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I mean, all three of them, that was uh like, wait, what?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know where I am, but mom, you've kept this calendar.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you know that I had sports after school.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: You knew that I was going, like, we talked about that.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, actually, I do I know that you're right.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, we wouldn't just like, oh, suddenly now you can drive and now you have to communicate.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: I still knew we'd still have like we had weekly um check-ins on Sunday night at dinner.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: We'd have like everybody will kind of go around and say, Hey, this is what I've got going on this week, you know, so that the family kind of knew where we were headed.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'd be like, Yeah, but now that you're driving, it's your responsibility to be like, oh, you know, after school, hey mom, just a reminder, I'm going over to Sally's house today.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'll see you tonight at five.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, even though it may be on the family calendar and it may have already been discussed and maybe, no, no, no, no.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: But for you to get the joy of driving, now you have that responsibility.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so it starts to kind of like, oh, okay, now I'm actually responsible to communicate where I am.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm responsible.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: So when I move out and I'm with a roommate or I'm with a spouse, I don't just MIA because well it's on the calendar.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm giggling.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: I hope everybody else is giggling as you think of friends that you're like, oh yeah, parents did not teach them their spouses.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is so good.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, um, the natural question that I had that came up came up, which you haven't like said that it's not true, but what I imagine people listening, resistance would be like, what if your spouse and you think differently?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So internally, okay, I'll speak to our marriage.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in the South where the women, you know, men held the doors.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: You say, Yes, ma'am, yes, sir.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Aaron did not.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And he grew up in Phoenix.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: And when we got, when we were figuring out what we're gonna do, it was painful and really easy for me to get judgmental and be a Pharisee about how wrong his idea of family culture was.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, to just be honest, like judgmental about it.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And in my own life, the Lord's had me walk back some of those.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you do when there's not exactly agreement?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And like it doesn't.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've watched it impact marital connection when there's a disagreement about how to parent things.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you protect, or what'd you do?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: What would you do when you disagree about things, or how'd you protect it?
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because also, too, the the flip side is maybe maybe one is more important to you than it is, John.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you're forcing the person to enforce it, then it you feel like a parent to them now.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's almost like a director, manager, employee role, which is not fun for anybody.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you deal with those things?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: How did you avoid them if they popped up?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so I have been blessed with a husband who is very strong in what he thinks, and probably similar to everyone listening, totally the opposite of me in so many ways, which is beautiful because I get to learn from it and so infuriating because you know, I think I'm right.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, like anything opposite of that is not gonna work.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: But honestly, if like if you just looked at us naturally, I'm probably the better little kid mom or parent, and he's the better adult parent because he's just the way we were raised, like that's a good reflection.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: So us trying, instead of seeing us at odds with each other, I'm like, we actually could parent a whole human.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if we were both like me, we would kill the little kid era.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like in a good way, in a good way.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we would like be awesome at the little kid era and we would fumble the adult era.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: That would be a bummer.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if we were just like him, we would fumble the little kid connection foundation era and we would rock the adult era.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like we would be awesome.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: But if we could come together, oh my goodness, what if we had three humans that we got to raise from birth until our grave, and we got to actually lean on each other's strengths for that.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, like in the little kid world, um, there would be times, you know, maybe he would come home from work and I'm like, man, they really need their daddy.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like they really need not daddy sitting on the couch, like, thank you, I provided for you today, but like daddy wrestling.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of nagging, um, in well, right?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's super easy to be like, why aren't you playing with them?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Play with them, go jump on your dad, like get him to do, you know, whatever.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: But instead, like in a time when the kids aren't around, maybe you know, it's a Saturday afternoon, you know, morning and it's kind of a quiet morning, just to be like, hey, can I just let you know like this is really important?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen the kids yearn for this from you.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've seen it, like I can feel because uh in our relationship, I'm more of the like in tune with the emotion part, right?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd be like, I can feel this and I can sense it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: How do I help you do that?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't, I know a, it might not be natural.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you didn't see it modeled.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you're doing this for the first time, but I also don't want to like put expectations on you because you have been working all day and you have like you're you're trying to control you.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right, exactly.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And he'd be like, Well, maybe I can do it once, you know, once a week or twice a week.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it would be nice if on those days X, Y, and Z happen.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Cool, done.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would like set him up for success, or he'd be like, Oh, I didn't, I mean, even sometimes just talking about it, he'd be like, I didn't even know that.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, Oh, you didn't know that the your daughter just wanted you to lay in bed while she read to herself.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because he'd be like, Why am I sitting on this bed?
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like she reads to herself.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is weird.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Because like I'm just laughing.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard that conversation for like four other marriages, a hundred percent.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, I'm the because Aaron's better at laying with the reading.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, sweet, and I'm like, why am I here?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Alexa's doing this for you, like a hundred percent.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, but realize like, and just but what I love is you didn't come in attacking or telling him how he failed or how he missed it.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Even your question of assuming the best of him, assuming he has strengths to offer versus on the better parent.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think there's a a low thrum of superiority that could I'm just gonna be 100% of like guilty of whatever my strength is versus like the full picture, like you're saying, but then also coming in low and then like how could I help you?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And have it be one of the things I've noticed is have it be collaborative conversation versus a prescriptive hand you this is what you need to do.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, it just never goes well.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, any other shifts that you would say going back to the mom versus mommy that you would classify that you give your kids a heads up for, or actually practical.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: When do you think when does that start happening?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so full confession, I would probably still have all my kids at home if it was up to me.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's what I'm saying.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if I'm like the little kid mom, like I would be like, oh my gosh, you guys all live here, and mommy makes you snacks when you come home from full-time work.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, like that's how it would be.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, realizing like I actually had to kind of defer to my husband in that way of like, oh, when he would be like, your mother doesn't do that anymore.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he would actually say, like, um, especially our youngest, and it's a boy and it's the only boy, and you know, often they're boys.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: I need to hear this so bad.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: We're literally two girls and a boy, and Aaron's like, Your mom doesn't.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, Yes, she does.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't take your lead.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what I should have done, Michelle.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's so, oh my goodness.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you if anybody has an only boy and it's the youngest, it is like Prince Wesley.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and then if your daughters are like mine, they're like, Are you kidding me?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: I did, I did that by that age.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, no, you didn't.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: But because they're older and they're like seeing their little brother, they're like, he's so spoiled.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think he is.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, like kind of deferring to my husband in some of those moments who be like, you can you can make your own snack.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Your mom doesn't need to do that.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then later, again, like when it's just my husband and I being like, hey, there's actually a part of me as a mom that really loves making snack when he comes home.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like the fact of like, and again, I'm a forward thinker.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, hey, when he's an adult and he's picking his kids up from school, wouldn't it be really cool if he's like, let's stop by grandma and grandpa's because grandma always has snacks.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like I'm I kind of think with that in mind.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, I wanna, I wanna build a like expectation that when he comes home, mom is so excited to see him that he's always welcomed here.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: That home is always a fun place where you're celebrated to be at.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, hey, John, I know that my husband, I'm like, hey, I know what you're trying to do.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know what you're trying to shift in him from a boy to a man, but I feel like you're taking something from me, the mom, like a mom part of me.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he'll be like, I didn't, but you know, but you were in the middle of work because I work from home and he'll be like, he came into your office to ask you to make him a sandwich.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like he can make a sandwich.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I know, and I know you were protecting me in that moment, and you were trying to that's why I didn't say anything.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I never say anything in the moment.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: I just like the kids, you don't know protect me.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because it yeah, you know, I mean, I United Front.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: United front, and I'm like, and also it never goes, I mean, like it becomes a triggered hot mess in the moment where I'm like, oh, when we're both not in it, we'll talk about it retroactively so much better.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: 100% and be able to plan ahead.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's no emotions.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: So when we talk about it, he's like, Oh, I didn't think you liked making sandwiches.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like that's not like my favorite pastime, but I like because when I make him a sandwich, he'll sit in the kitchen with me and I get to ask him questions.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: It actually is just a vehicle, and you took a vehicle of connection away from me.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: So could you like totally correct him?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because maybe he shouldn't have come in and interrupted my work.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but maybe correcting in a way of like, hey, but did you ask mom if this was a good time for her to make you a sandwich instead of just demanding it?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I've watched, like now my son will like come in and be like, hey, mama, like it do you think I have to leave in 45 minutes for whatever?
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think you might have time for and then XYZ?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, so you learn the respect your dad was trying to instill in you, but now I get the choice of like, no, I don't have time, so I need you to do this on your own, which is great.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: An adult would do that.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: No mom guilt.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know, that's gone.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I also have the invitation of like, well, I can't make you this four-course meal you just asked for, but I can make you a girl cheese.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, cool, mom.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: All right, awesome.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm laughing because this is literally a page of us figuring out am I still making Wesley's lunches?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Am I not?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And but I one of the things that you said that is so true and good is like the idea of not solving it in the moment because you end up usually reacting and creating a different mess, and then assuming the best about about his motivation and yours, but then almost like giving him pieces that he's not aware of, not an accusation of his motives, but like I actually really like this, or even it being collaborative of like, if this is my goal, and then I hear your goal, like what do we do to combine those versus like one wins and one doesn't to like get us there?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, oh, it's so that's so good and brilliant.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other thing I was gonna ask is this concept around when boys become specifically, I think most of this, as you guys are listening, it doesn't apply just to boys, you know, like maybe we've been talking about your 16-year-old because he's at home a little bit more, but it's universally the daughters as well.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I would ask a specific question of what I hear sometimes from moms as their sons are becoming teens, is like that's a dad conversation.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's a and what I'm not saying disagree, I don't disagree with unique conversations that are different coming from dad.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I think when it becomes a marital pain point of I'm disappointed by husbands lacking in this area or slacking in this area, what do you do or say to not have bitterness from parenting stuff?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Shifts that should be, quote unquote, should be a dad spot almost like corrupt your marital thing?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, how do you what would you say some dad spots that are helpful?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't want you to listen, folks, with a list of what your husband's failing at.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: That would be unhelpful to listen to this helpful list with that framework.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: But um, what is helpful for the dads to step into?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then how do you, if they don't hit that, how do you not hold it as a standard of their flaws, you know?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so we did have the benefit of having daughters first, and so I kind of modeled what I wanted on the flip side.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, like when my oldest, um unfortunately, she was on the playground, she was way too young for this, and somebody had ripped out the word sex out of a dictionary and had shown her it on the playground, and she was like, What is this?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Oh, bummer.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I thought we had to, you know, a little bit longer.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we had to have the talk.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about it.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: And as soon as we were done talking, we'd gone out to a little restaurant and we're driving home.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, Does dad know about this?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Yeah, he's actually an expert.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, He is because you know, we we didn't just talk sex, we talked about the female body.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: He was like, She was like, He's an expert.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, You should totally talk to him about it.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: He loves to talk about poor guy.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: And because then I'm like texting him on the side, like, be prepared for all of the questions.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Oh.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: So literally he was getting ready for a work event, and she sat on the side of the bathtub asking him about periods and asking him about like all the things about sex, and he was just like, his eyes were huge as he's just shaving and just uh-huh.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, your mom was right.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but it was like a modeling in our family culture that either parent, even you know, boys and girls things.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have recently we had to navigate something, um, a situation that my son, it he didn't do something, but it was with friends, and he was having to navigate how to stand up for what was right in this situation.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, he walked in and I saw, I could see it on his face.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, buddy, what's wrong?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, I have to talk to dad.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay, well, dad's at work.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is there something mom can help you with?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm I don't know, mama.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is a dad thing.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I just remember in that moment, like, oh, you could have like stabbed me in the heart.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you mean?
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like, mommy fixes everything.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what like what could it be that mom couldn't fix?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: And realizing in that moment, like, as harsh as this probably sounds, like, okay, could is this moment about me or is this about him?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: And realizing, like, as a mom, there's so many things that I can make about myself.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, you're rejecting me.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, your dad's pushing me out.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're that, but this isn't about me.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: The goal isn't to make mom feel good about herself.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: The goal isn't at the end of time for like, wow, mom, you felt awesome every day of parenting.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's not my goal.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: My goal is to raise decent human beings.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: My goal is to raise family with connection.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: And family with connection doesn't mean all connection points run through me.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Connection means they're connected with each other, they're connected outside of me.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, he did talk with, you know, my husband and they talked through it.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then my husband, which was great because because this is kind of how we do things, we know they know nothing is hidden, like with dad and I.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you get to choose if you want to tell dad about this, or I'm gonna tell him about it.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: Cause either way, we're gonna know about it, you know.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so in this situation, they talked about it.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he gave them suggestions on how to handle it.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: My son handled it.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: The situation's done because a lot of times with guys, like in the process, girls, we'll talk about it throughout the process.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna give you an up to date play by play.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I know for men, often like there's a problem.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna go solve it.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now I can talk about it.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to talk about it in the middle of me trying to solve it.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like they're one or the other.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just gave my, I trusted my husband.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: I I'd been telling one of the things I did from when they were very little is just, I mean, the kids these days call it glazing, but I would just up talk my husband in front of them.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, your dad is the most awesome dad.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: If you guys ever have questions, hey man, he is so smart, he's so I mean, anytime I had, you know, one day to my son one day, you're gonna be so lucky, you'll be just like him.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh girls, if you're you know, one day you're gonna be so lucky to meet a man like your daddy, you're gonna be just so blessed.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like just I'm laughing how it almost sounded like a hiccup, but it was like how good of a marital advice that is outside of even parenting.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, noted, that will be a habit I steal and have not intentionally done before, but we'll start stealing.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: But thank you.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but if you talk them up, then when they go to them, now it's time for me to pay the piper.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've talked about how wise he is and how awesome of a dad he is.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: So now I have to trust that he's that wise and he's that great of a dad.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so we as you're sharing, I'm like just a light bulb moment of how the opposite can be true.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you talk about like, well, your dad made another mistake or your your dad's always late, how we actually would recede trust from like in a way that's like Like almost stealing from the dad parent kiddo relationship by our own experience.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, ooh, I have thought about that.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's and like so, and because my husband knows that the connection, because we've talked about it, is really important to me.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: Once in that situation where my son had to go clean, you know, had to confront his friend and like get, you know, other adults involved in this whole thing, he came to me later.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, mom, do you want to know what I had to talk to dad about?
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Oh, but I would love to know.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, and he gave me this synopsis and I said, Okay, he goes, but that's a summary.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay, he goes, because what happened was too inappropriate for a woman to hear.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Wow, thank you for protecting me.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Man, that was really like I appreciate even in that moment when you were struggling with what to do, thanks for protecting your mom.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's awesome.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: And again, reiterate, I'm so glad you have your dad.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: Man, like he like he really, because honestly, it was a big enough deal that whenever he contacted my husband, my husband just came home from work.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: All right, bud, let's do this.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's let's do it now.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so just to like reinforce, because I don't want what if they call me one day and I don't answer the phone and now I'm the only connection they have.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, dad's right there.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: You call him, he's the answer.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: And to let them, I think this is the biggest thing is let my relationship with my kids is drastically different than my husband's.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: What there's no scale, it's just different.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Different isn't better or worse, it's just different.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't make his relationship look like mine.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but they were sad and you didn't hug them.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: No, I fixed it, and now they're not sad.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, but they didn't get a physical affection, you know, or whatever.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, but that's why they have a mom and a dad.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: So dad fixes it.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, mom hugs you and everything's better, right?
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: And but just realizing like allowing him to parent how God designed him to parent.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, from the very beginning, I know that God gave us these three kids because in his wisdom, which I still think this is the craziest thing, he thought we were the best people to raise them.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wild, like what an honor.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are you kidding me?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know a million people that would be better that I would choose over myself to be my kid's mom, right?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm like, man, but God in his wisdom, he didn't just choose me to be his their mom, he chose my husband to be their dad.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's something that he has that if I could just get out of the way, just get out of the way and let him be.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like you were talking about like there are certain things.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: It was funny because you and I had talked the other day on our walk of like, wow, like the expectation of like ma'am, sir pulling out doors, you know, all pulling out chairs, doors, all the things.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: And what if, you know, if you don't.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I actually went home and I asked my husband, I said, what is it that I expected that you didn't have?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, can you think of anything who's yeah, emotional connection, emotional maturity?
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I had no like uh like EQ when it came to stuff with the kids.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Okay, but you do now.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I do because I watched you and you never like forced your I never forced it, but like as I this is gonna sound horrible and manipulated, but it wasn't because my heart is pure.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this one of those like heart moments, heart postures.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: I just modeled it.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't model it within the back of my head, be like, are you watching?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: Are you taking notes?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna be better because of me?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just modeled, hey, this is you know, even for my son, hey, your sisters, do you see this?
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, they're sad.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: This is how we respond when a human is sad.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is what, you know, and my husband to be able to watch that and be like, oh, that is how we're supposed to respond when a person's sad.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then to watch him kind of grow in that along the way.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, um, my it's funny because my husband has never been like a open my car door every single time.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I started having my son do it when he was little for his sisters.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: If I drove, he I'd be like, hey, open the door for your sisters.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and now when it's just my husband and my son and I, my son opens the door for me every single time.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: He'll be like, Mom, stop, stop.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then he'll like push his way in and open the door for me.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then I hear his dad be like, Good job, son, good job.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like this weird, like, I modeled it in a way without expecting.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't ask my husband, like, why aren't you teaching him this?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: I just we did that as a family.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: What you're saying.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Or even hoping you notice your lack.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think that can't be in there too.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh, that's so good.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're out of time.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: This was so good though, Michelle.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_00: What would you say?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, did you ever have moments where you're like at 13, as this increase?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_00: I guess as you were sharing, I was thinking about some natural what you said is like when freedom increases, so does responsibility.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or like, so the idea of like when they got the first phone would probably be an increase of responsibility for driving.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're called like, were there other markers that shifted you knew were gonna shift the dynamic of your expectation of them?
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, looking back, I'll just say this because this is what I wish someone would have told me when my kids were like 13, 14, um, to allow natural consequences to happen.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like um like my daughter failing, not failing, but getting D's in math.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: She was not putting the homework back in her book bed.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: So exactly.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we're like then like I don't know if it's because a church culture of like grace and let me let me figure out how to cover you.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, oh, like we're gonna be really gracious, but life is not gracious.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I was actually setting them up for failure.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_01: And instead, like in that, in that situation of like, hey, I you're forgetting the homework, like, hey, how do I help you?
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something that you need from me because you're not doing this?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is there something you need externally?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: Can we write a note?
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do we need to, you know, whatever it is?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm still their mom and I'm helping them, but on the back end, I'm not like I'm not coming in to save you.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not calling the teacher saying, Well, I have all of the homework and I and I saw it and I know it was done on that day.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, could she get partial credit?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: Could she like I can't actually step in there?
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: I wish someone would have told me that because I did try to buffer them from the world and it was out of love, but it didn't work.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or like maybe perceived injustice.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, it was there.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: She should get credit versus like perceived injustice, or really honestly, oh, this is horrible to admit.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: But like, oh no, I'm the mom with the kid with the D.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, well, if you were a better mom, she wouldn't forget her homework.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, those like internal dialogues you have that are so silly.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm getting in the way of raising awesome humans because it's in my own insecurity that I don't want to have the kid that forgets their homework.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna be the one to help you and be responsible.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: I just wish, you know.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Someone had said, like someone had said, like, hey, just what if you just grace is awesome, but it there's also just natural consequences that if you just allow it, it actually doesn't hurt so bad when life comes.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: If it's, I mean a D in elementary school.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like we can still look at it now, but in her world, it could be the impact of like, oh, this was a responsibility muscle that I grew that actually when I'm 30, I'm so happy I have this muscle, right?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas like moms, we kind of atrophy that muscle because we're coming in to rescue.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that would be my only like I wish someone would have told me, like, hey, rescuing, yeah, great, awesome, but you don't have to rescue on everything.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what love looks like.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_00: And even like the dis like you said, the discomfort being okay in the teacher versus like, oh, okay, that's so painful.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, would you like to say a quick prayer for those of us who are transitioning from children to teens and then teens to adults?
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, yeah.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Heavenly Father, I just um want to thank you first for the opportunity and the honor to be parents.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like you chose us and we don't take that lightly.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so we just first of all thank you for that.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: And we thank you that you love them more than we do.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of infathomable that that could be possible, but we know that you have a plan and a purpose for them.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so as we're transitioning from one stage to the other, even if it's just toddler to elementary school or elementary to junior high or whatever it is, God, we um we want to tune our ears to hear your voice.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, your word says that your sheep hear their voice and that we would listen to it, that we would listen to when that small voice that says, uh, let them go, let them do that.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't step in right now and listen to the voice that says, No, you need to, you need to step in with discipline or correction.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, Lord, that we would be so in tune with you and that it would be a peaceful journey, that we would value the connection that they have with you, and that we have with them above some weird outside standard that we try to put on ourselves.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so, God, thank you for loving them.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you that they will hear your voice and that you're guiding them and that we can trust them to you.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, just be with us in Jesus' name.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for coming, Michelle.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.