Latest / Path to Hope Podcast / The HR Leader Who Had to Ask for Help
Transcript
- Daniel Cohen Full: Self-awareness is a powerful thing. And so I wasn't self-aware, but once I became self-aware, I I could look back at my career at that moment and it was just like this skyrocketing from year after year after year. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the second episode of the Path to Hope podcast. Today we're talking about careers leadership and the courage it takes. To ask for help, even when you're the person everyone else comes to. I'm really glad you're here walking the path with me. And without further delay, I want to introduce you to my next guest, Dan Cohen. Welcome. Thank you. Dan and I go back a few years. We've known each other through our professional careers. Dan is an HR leader with decades of experience. he's very well traveled. And he has spent a career supporting other people within organizations. So Dan, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for being the second guest in the Fa Path to Hope podcast. Thank you for the invite. So let's get started with how did you find your journey into HR Human Resources? Well, it it was a interesting journey. I actually started out as a management trainee. and from there I moved in as a in the training organization, as a trainee specialist. stayed in that for about 10 years, developing training programs and I was getting close to HR and I kinda liked what I saw the HR people doing. And and eventually I I left the training organization, had an opportunity to join as a human resources manager. And from there I just kept building my skills, had several promotions, and you know, 30 years later I I've had a long career in HR. Yeah, that sounds phenomenal, really. And I think you also traveled in your career. Can you talk about that little bit? Yes, I've one of my roles was a global role. I've had several roles, some some at site, some regional, and some global. In this particular role that was global, I got a chance to travel to Europe, many countries in Europe, South America, Asia. I mean, I I think I did about 250,000 miles of of air travel in one year. And so the part I really enjoyed about that was seeing different countries. And I saw some consistency around how people really felt about where. they lived in and how proud they are of their culture, their food. And and most common thing I'm I noticed is that most everybody wanted the same thing for the next generation. They wanted their generation, their kids to be prosperous. And no matter what, whether I was in South America, whether I was in Asia, in Europe, And the common denominator is everybody just wants to be happy. And people generally treat you with respect. as long as you enter their country respectful in a respectful way. That's that's so beautiful. I it's it's really what you just talk about is the human condition. We all seek happiness, we all seek betterment for our next generation. And to that point, as you've Noticed all these different cultures and people and leadership from different countries. What are the different ways that you've seen that they handle stress? Yeah, that's a very good question. I've seen different regions and let's just say the the Asia as as a region. And one of the biggest mistakes I made early on in my career as a leader, I had 40 different countries that I was responsible for. And I had 16 country leaders. NHR reporting to me. And I approached each region the same way, not understanding the many differences within the various countries. and and I had to adapt my communication style and my expectations and and some people just wouldn't naturally talk to you, where others were on the other end of the spectrum. So you can't just go in looking every looking at everything a as as one unit. And in South America, I'd learned that was a very broad learning for me as well. A very strong relationship based before people really would talk to you as much in general. And so understanding the differences was is important. And leaders from the various regions, depending on whether it's a country or region that's more hierarchical and people would go up the the ladder a certain way, or if it was more of an open communication where people felt free to express themselves. And you had to really understand the differences and the different countries and the region to understand how to even approach someone if they needed help. Absolutely. and so in your career, what was that turning point turning point that shaped you? As a leader that you are today? Well, the turning point for me, I had a men I have a mentor. He's he's actually retired and he's still, I still consider him my mentor. I was halfway through my career. And and at that point, I, you know, I'm an introvert, but I'm I'm driven. And but I was very self-centered. My programs had to be better than everybody else. I was very, very self-centered. And I communicated one style, very, you know, even though I was an introvert, but I was very direct. And I had a temper. Yeah, yeah. This is before I got really into HR. Go go figure an HR person with a temper. And so I remember Joe, he I mean, he told me that I want you to go get counseling. that's great. And so, you know, and I'm like, okay. And I said, okay, but I didn't go. So about a month later he calls me into his office and he says, You didn't go. And I said, I said, no sure I didn't. He says, You don't, I get the report that comes to me of how many hours you need to go. And so when I went, I did go. And what I found just by going through the various sessions and the questions that that I had to answer and really take a good look inside, I started understanding where that anger, where that was coming from. And and that was a turning point. I came out of that looking at myself totally different, understanding and and I had another leader that s said this many times and and I'd never forget it and I always live by it. Self-awareness is a powerful thing. And so I wasn't self-aware, but once I became self-aware, I I could look back at my career at that moment and it was just like just skyrocketed from year after year after year and and to the point now I'm in an executive suite position. So that's amazing. And and so initially, what was your hesitation to go to counseling? I think it was just pride and fear, for for the most part because, you know, in When I grew up, people were like, you don't admit you have a problem. And you don't ask for help. And so I was like, you know, annoyed that my mentor at the time I said, You need to go get help. And but when I finally went and and went through the the counseling sessions, you know, it was really eye opening to to see as things were being filled back, what was that what was at the core of those feelings? So what you what you really did is you went through the process, which is painful to really connect with yourself. Yes. Like to it at the deepest level. And so when you you said, you know, that your career then skyrocketed as you had so much self-awareness, you carried that with you. and so What did you notice in employees who are struggling before they say everything? Because now that you were so self-aware of yourself, how how did you notice that? I I always lean in to the the premise that always assume good intent. I don't think people come to work just to do bad and just to make people upset or or get into any kind of trouble. And so when I see patterns, that's not like themselves. And I I wonder, okay, what's going on that cause this individual to manifest in a certain way? Because it it could be many different things. It could be a family situation, a situation with a child, could be something they're going through, could be stress, from taking care of their an elderly parent or relative. There are a lot of things. It could be a lot of different things. And so really having a relationship that you've built before asking, do you want to talk about anything? Is there anything that I could do? Anything that I could help you with? so you have to look for those moments to to to step in and just check in with people. And I and I wonder as you were going through your career with different countries and cultures, how did you find a can sort of a commonality in for example, your hesitation was fear and and people just don't ask for help from from your, when you were growing up. Did you find that consistently across cultures? yes. Wouldn't would hesitate to ask Yes, yes, because some some people, depending on the region and the country, that if they see you as the leader, you know, they're like, no, you're you're untouchable. You're just someone way up there that I shouldn't even talk to you about. Like this, or I shouldn't even approach you. And so that's why I think it's very important for leaders, no matter what level they are in the organization, is to break those barriers down from the very beginning. And you do that by establishing trust. And trust to me really comes down to the propensity to take a risk. And so people won't trust you if they feel like they they won't. risk having the conversation with you, then there's no trust there. But if you establish a relationship over time and people, you people, you you add a drop where you pour out your bucket. You can add some more drops or you can pour it out your bucket. And the more you fill up those the buckets, you've heard of that analogy before. If you can fill your bucket up, then people are gonna be more they're gonna say, I can trust Dan because I know he's not gonna lead me with Yeah, you're filling up the The trust bank. Yeah, you're filling up the trust bank. Yeah. But you can lose it just by not being consistent and then you're starting over if you're allowed to start over again with that individual. That's true. And so with with that experience that you've had in different cultures and and and companies like around the world, what is one thing that companies get wrong about mental health support? And then on the other side, what's the one thing that they get right? That you've seen. I think one thing they get wrong, first, every company I was fortunate. Every company I worked for had a program. Some call it employee assistance programs, some level of program and and support, some dog. And so it's you know, you have to look at it. What's in it for the employee, the what we call the employee value proposition. It's not just pay, it's not your benefits, it's it's the whole, the whole gamut and companies that get it right really have a solid employee assistance program but they communicate that and it's just not on their website but they well if there's a tragic tragedy that happens at the workplace or some family EAP services, they have counselors come on site. I mean literally come on site, meet with employees, make it available. also financial counsels don't all of the companies that do it right do it that way. The ones that don't do it right don't don't even talk about it or even have it at the forefront. And so wellness programs are very important and the companies that do it well focus on on on the physical and the mental component of of wellness. Yeah, that's so insightful. just being part of top Fortune five hundred companies that I've worked for, I've noticed that. The ones that really most most of them is just there on the website. And when I've needed professional help, I've had to go seek it, you know. But I I was at that point where I really thought I needed it. So I went out looking for it. so yeah, those those companies that just show up when that crisis is happening. That is amazing. so let let's pivot into, you talked a little bit about your background, your, where you were not comfortable asking for help. Let's let's talk about a little bit about your story, your background and then your story as a father. I'd yeah, that would be wonderful. Well my father was in the military and so I grew up in the South. we lived in Germany for a while. Then lived out west. So I was one of those those the children that moved a lot growing growing up. And then when he retired, I call South Carolina home. That's where most of my relatives are from. So I at an early age, I was always the new kid and meeting different people from different backgrounds. And it was, I think it was my preparation for understanding. People are different, but people are also the same, no matter where where they where they come from. And so that I think being exposed to a lot of different states and countries growing up helped shape me as a a young adult. So I wasn't fearful for leaving and and saddling out of state to go work for a different c company in a different state. So I was very comfortable with that, with that type of change. but you know, one of the th I say the downside to that is I really didn't establish I I'd say a lot of long term friendships at the state at when I was at the various various states. So some people say I've known the friends since elementary school. I can't say that I have good friends, but but not that long. Right. Yeah enough. Yeah, I know for sure. And I've I've not a military, but I've got a similar traveling background. And honestly the only way that I was able to reconnect with some of my childhood friends was through once Facebook happened. yes, yes, me too. That Facebook before when I got into it. But yes. and that was nice. But before that, yeah, there was just no way because we would be moving around and so well, thank you for sharing that. So when you in your family's journey, it it shaped, how you think about help seeking. So would you tell us a little bit about your son and how, Yeah, my son, he he's from a personality perspective, he's he's the exact opposite of me. He's one of, the extrovert, thrill seeking, very outgoing, never met a stranger, that type where I'm on the other end of the spectrum as an introvert, reserved. But gr watching him grow up, I I noticed some patterns that I wish I probably would have stepped in a lot sooner. This is before my understanding of of the impact down the road. You know, he he was like most kids, he was mischievous. But then I've started seeing patterns where he wasn't listening to his his, parents and and just doing things like coming home late as a midd a as a teenager. As a teenager one, two o'clock in the morning type stuff. Okay. Or just sneaking out of the house and, you know, being escorted back home. by police because he's out w roaming around with his friends because they wanted to just roam. And so he I he was a follower, but he kept getting in trouble. And but it was never any repercussions, whether it was school, there wasn't really no repercussions for those behaviors and and it just kept getting worse. Now by the time he became a young adult and went out on his own, I saw him struggle even harder because of just lack of control and discipline. And as an adult, there are repercussions for for the things you get into. Yeah. So you started noticing these patterns of I guess rebellious yes listening and and so from what you know now, like how do you how do you look at those signs now and what do you understand about them now that you didn't then? I think what I understand now is having the d conversations directly as you see the behaviors happen. And and a lot of it was stemming social media was really kicking in by the time he was growing growing up and and he would, most kids, listen to different types of music. but then I saw him trying to minute. some of the behaviors that he was seeing and listening to and he fancied himself a little gangster. Because Yeah, the whole thing, the saggy pants, the whole thing. And I'm like, now his his mother and I, we were divorced for several years, but we stayed close to him. And his stepfather was an executive as well. very senior executive. And so He he had three, parental figures that he could look up to, but he would he chose to go a different route. And when I saw him really manifesting a lifestyle that he wasn't no gangster, but posing with weapons like like as if he like and before he knew it, he was got himself in a little trouble, got shot. goodness. So yeah. And and so I was watching him go down that path and we never really got in front of him until he just kept getting getting in getting in trouble. And I I would like, if you feel comfortable, to say, you know, when you said there were no repercussions, repercussions, right? So what what would you like you to me it's like Had you done something, what what was that thing that you think now that I you should have done or you should have, you know what I mean? Like what what crosses your mind now? I probably should have stepped in as more. Uh-huh. You know, because you know, I spent most of my time with my son on the summers. And and so I would what when things got really bad, I was called and then I would calm him down, we talk. but I I think what I really missed was I should have had him go to counseling. This is before I even understood by counseling. But that's And and I didn't didn't know that was the fact what he needed. That's exactly what he needed. And, you know, he's in a situation now that he's got to work through. But one of the things that has come out of it is that the doctors prescribed medication for. Or it's con so it was like, he really had a condition. Right. Right. that is that's exactly the crux of what I've gone through, you know, as a family member who had you know, my my sister who's who suffered and it's not knowing the signs. No. Right. And then finding out a diagnosis so much later. whereas with my kids, because I was so much know knowledgeable and aware, I was able to take the the the actions and and that's really what early awareness is about. So when you gosh, I can't what was it like, right, carrying this at home and you see him in the summers and you know, but then you're also showing up for people at work. I mean that must have been yeah, it's you've really you have to really make sure you take care of yourself. it and so and and make sure that what's happening in your personal life you still have to do your corporate life that's right and but but everybody's human so you've got to really make sure you stay close to yourself thinking how am I feeling how am I doing and and now you know I understand the importance of What exercise, doing the things that you that really make you happy. You make sure figure cup, having a good, well balanced wheels, exercised. I mean, there's this whole you know, the whole three legged stool of having a balanced life, whether spiritual, physical and mental. yeah. I'm I would totally agree with you. That's something that kept me going, along with counseling that I took, but also Finding a spiritual path that that really connected me with myself more than anything else. Yes. So where you see yourself today and your son, what does hope look like for you now? I think hope looks like as he's coming through his journey, just making sure that I'm gonna be there for him when he's ready, to really, you know. experience life together as it should be. That's right. That's beautiful. And and I know that'll happen very, very soon. so your journey as a father, I'm sure, has changed the way that you lead and support employees. Can you tell a little bit about that? Yes, patience. I mean I I I'm a I I've kind of learned that I'm not that patient, but I've learned To be patient. And and it's interesting that you have to really step back and just ask questions. Why are things happening the way they're happening? There's a reason. And then instead of just jumping straight in to any kind of conclusion. So what it's taught me is to be a better listener. Yes. and not talk as much and really really get to know people. Yeah, no, definitely. And I feel, yeah, patience, number one. What would you tell a parent today who has a corporate life and who is, you know, has children or siblings or loved ones that they can sense as struggling, but you know, where where would they Where would you advise that they start? I would start with, if you can't start with your leader, definitely start with your HR department or representative and and understand what resources the company has for for counseling and for support. 'Cause more than likely there's gonna be some some support there and it's gonna probably be at no cost because you're paying for it through your benefits as well. So make sure that you understand those resources and and and you use it. Also, I always before before you even join a company, really research that company to see what type of work like balance that they really, really, really believe in. Because you wanna work for an organization that that really lives about what they say, you know, people are important, but are they? And so you find that out in times of need, when when you have to take time off or when you have to, you know, to be away on a on a leave, family medical leave or anything. the company's supports you and you know it's not gonna be damaging to your career. Career, yeah. That's exactly what it my next thought was, knowing that they won't damage your career. That's one of the things I I did not research those things, but I guess I was lucky that they did have those programs. As when my s son was struggling or my daughter was struggling, I was able to take you know, the resources, the time off. But a lot of people don't know that. No. No, they don't know that. Yeah. And that's where, you know, I think If if there's one thing that you would advise the audience who's listening, what would you say? to really and one of the things you said was, of course, you know, find out your if your company has these benefits. What would you want them to take away with income? I would want them to always be curious about what's out there within your organization for support. there's probably more than you than you know. There's also mo most companies have the business resource networks too. So you can have minded groups coming together. That's a resource that people could tap into. And so once you understand what's out there, I think you have the the opportunity to make the decisions that could be most beneficial for you and your family. Yeah, for sure. What's one sentence of advice that you'd give to your younger self? I actually wrote this to myself. When I was twenty-three, sitting in at my office, and I will remind my s my older self. So I'm gonna go the opposite section. And and I wrote this and and it and this is it. It's dissatisfaction is the base for progress. Once you become satisfied, you become obsolete. That's right. And so what that means to me is you you gotta be a continuous learner, you gotta be continuously improving yourself. because once you become satisfied, you become obsolete. Yeah. And so when you think about how fast the world changes and how fast technology changes, what I've witnessed over the years is I've seen employees lean into the change and I've seen some that fight it. And those that lean into it are the ones that tend to be more successful down the road. Yeah. And so right now, with AI, this big massive change that's happening within organizations. You you see that pivotal moment where some people are leaning into it. Yep. And some people are being fearful of it because of averse to change. A lot of verse to change. This is gonna take my job. It's gonna be but but it's one of those moments where, you know, you can't be satisfied with how things were in the past. You've got to Press yourself forward and continuously press yourself forward. So don't be satisfied. Don't be satisfied. Don't be satisfied. I love it. And I think taking it back to even you as a parent or a caregiver, continuously wanting to learn and understand and staying curious is such an important part of connecting with your with your loved one. I remember you telling me there was, as you follow my post as something that spoke to you and you wanted to continue to read through what I was what I was saying. Well can you share with the audience what that was? Yes. Of the years and and just how consistent and and how you take a stand in what you believe in. That it was very inspiring to me. And so I wrote that note to you because because it was it was it was touching. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. You a lot of different avenues and it's like I see I see all three. You got the mind, body, and soul. you you you complete that circle. Thank you, Dan. I appreciate it. And that's the thing, right? Is how do you how do you get to that early awareness? before a crisis hits, right? And you've experienced that in your own life. And so I think that's probably what was like, Yeah, early awareness is so important. Yes, early awareness is important. I always say, because if if you if you don't catch it early, and I always look at there are three levels of escalation. What I call a it's a blip and then it becomes a clash. Yep. Then it becomes a crisis. And so if you don't catch you that when it's a blip, something that just happens to spark and it's like, okay, I gotta really be aware of what's going on and and understand it. Because if you ignore it, all of a sudden things are gonna start kind of clashing and start and then it becomes a little bit bigger. And then then you may say, I can't really deal with it now. And then all of a sudden when it gets to that third stage, it's kinda out of control and just then it becomes a crisis. And so you wanna avoid thing is getting to that point. And so how you do that is under is like that early early detection. Early detection, staying curious, staying curious. Trying to understand it. And one thing that I advocate for for people like us who are not, you know, clinical, we're not professional psychologists or, you know, psychiatrists or therapists. what I try to tell help people understand is Those behaviors that you see and you're like as a caregiver, you're like, something is those behaviors are actually symptoms. so when you have a child who has fever and continuously has fever, then you're like, you're gonna do something about it. So it's the same thing, where you there's a mental health struggle going on here because I'm seeing some behaviors that, like you said, were a pattern that you notice later. So on that point, how can the listeners connect with you? Well, they can connect with me on LinkedIn. That that's probably the easiest way to find me. Okay. And you know, if they want to just reach out and connect and have a chat, I'm hoping to do that as well. All right, wonderful. Thank you so much, Dan. And thank you for all of you listening. And I hope you at least have some insights on early detection and why it's important and in your career as well, how to ask for help and how to get help when you are in a situation where your family and your loved ones need help. With that, thank you for being part of Path to Hope and we'll see you next time.