Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Why Learning Stops When Curiosity Is Lost | Katja Mehlhorn | EAW 45

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Why Learning Stops When Curiosity Is Lost | Katja Mehlhorn | EAW 45 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
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author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
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Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
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thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
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I have a request.
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If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
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It really helps us get this work done.
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As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
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And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
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equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
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If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
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com.
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So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
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This is gonna be a fun one.
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I've got Kacha Melhorn here who's German, but lives in the Netherlands
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and she lives in the, or near the town of Crogan Groan as we all Grogan.
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And she runs Horse Kids Crogan.
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But she's also a, an academic, a jolly, clever brainiac doctor, doctory
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type person, and she's a psychologist at the University of Crogan.
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Dealing with ai, but not with the development of ai, but with teaching
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students how to actually research and not rely on ai, which is interesting that we
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have to pay attention to that in the, in the days she's not doing that, of course,
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she's on the farm and she's working with.
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The equine assisted field in various ways with various populations out
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there in rather beautiful countryside in the Northern Netherlands.
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So she's really got a very broad focus and I'm very excited to talk to her.
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I've known catcher for a while and I've watched her develop her program
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and I've always been kind of silently in awe going, whoa, how'd you do that?
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Whoa, how'd you do that?
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So now we finally get a chance to ask the lady.
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So Kacha, thank you for coming on the show.
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Can you tell us who you are and why you got into this equine assisted thing
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when you could so easily just had a cushy number at the university and
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just ridden horses in your spare time?
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Katja Mehlhorn: Well, first of all, thank you for having me.
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I'm really honored When Eliana asked, I thought like, wow, you
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have this amazing list of speakers, and then what do I have to add?
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But that's,
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Rupert Isaacson: well, you're an amazing speaker, but yeah.
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Okay.
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Katja Mehlhorn: So asking me about horses, that's a long story.
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You know, I always loved horses and yeah.
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When you have to decide what kind of job to do, everyone said like,
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yeah, we don't work in horses.
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Become like something real.
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So after looking into being a vet or biologist, I ended up with psychology
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because I'm really interested in behavior.
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Mm-hmm.
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Animal or human, whatever.
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So that seemed to be kind of a good fit.
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And then I kind of got drawn into a PhD and I started that.
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But yeah, research is cool.
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Psychology is cool, but the horses always just had the stronger pool on me.
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Rupert Isaacson: Horses a cool, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Katja Mehlhorn: So while I was doing a postdoc actually in Pittsburgh, in the
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us I started volunteering at a center that did writing for the handicapped.
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So a path center.
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And I thought, wow, that, that's it.
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That's what I need to do.
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That's so amazing.
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So yeah, why?
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Why?
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Yeah, why it you just, I mean, you are happy yourself if you're with
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the horses, at least if you're a crazy horse person like we are.
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Mm-hmm.
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You also see the effect on those kids.
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They had kids there who were in a wheelchair, they seem barely conscious,
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kind of the head hanging down and they were being rolled in and you thought like,
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po okay, we are gonna put you on a horse.
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And then they smiled and the parents said like, wow, that's their smile of the week.
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And it just gives you goosebumps.
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See the, the effects that it has or, yeah, very.
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Excited autistic kids, calming down on the horse, kids saying their first words.
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It's just, yeah, yeah,
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Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
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Katja Mehlhorn: Magic is the, the best word I can think of.
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Right.
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Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's interesting.
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I'm always interested in this though because, you know, I, I'm so terrible.
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I'm so, I'm so selfish.
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Of course I didn't get involved in this until there was a gun to my
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head, you know, with my own son.
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And then luckily, fortunately for me, you know, find, and him finding a, a
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way into his world through the horse.
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But I'm always rather intrigued by people who come to it from the outside and say,
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yeah, I want to do this vocationally.
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Because it's not an easy thing to do at all.
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Also now what you do at Horse Kids, GaN is not like the standard path thing, right?
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So you started with that.
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So tell us how it differs.
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And why does it differ?
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What, how, why have you developed in, what have you developed and why
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have you developed in that direction?
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Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so when I did the volunteered there at the Path
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Center, I became certified as a CER path certified writing instructor.
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Mm-hmm.
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And, but they really have to focus much more on the physical handicaps.
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Yeah.
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And being a psychologist, I was obviously more interested in the, the mental part.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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Katja Mehlhorn: And then also when I started having my own center, like
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if you have people with wheelchairs and things like that, you need a
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lot of infrastructure while the, the mental stuff you can do much easier
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on a, on a small scale by yourself or with a couple of volunteers.
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Mm-hmm.
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So that's the practical side.
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What I.
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Also really like is to be creative and funny and, and really zoom
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in on the individual kids' needs.
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Hmm.
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And in the standard kind of part setting, you have a group that kind
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of more or less just the same activity and yeah, it always felt like it, it
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was magic in the one hand, but it also felt like you could do more than, than
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what at least what they did there.
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Mm-hmm.
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If you have the resources, because of course if you do it individually,
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it, it takes more resources than if you help kids in a group.
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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And as you say, you know, the, the standard therapeutic model that evolved
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in the USA UK and actually Germany too, where you are from, really came
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about after World War II where people basically missing limbs who'd been blown
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up were coming back home often to family riding establishments because their.
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Father perhaps had been in the cavalry and had started a
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riding school when they retired.
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That was a standard thing to do.
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So you had these people who were already motivated to ride and perhaps already
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knew how to ride, coming back from the war and then wanting to adapt, you know,
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figure out some sort of adaptation.
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I guess in our world, when we are dealing, particularly with autism
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as well, is one isn't always dealing with people who have the ability
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to follow top down instruction.
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Mm-hmm.
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And also who may or may not be motivated to ride at all.
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That's, that's one of the things I often find really interesting about our work is
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that we're letting the horse facilitate a change in the brain, which could be
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riding, it could be something else, or it could not be the horse at all, and we need
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to know how to do that without the horse.
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So I, I find that very exciting.
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But as you say, it takes.
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A certain resource rich environment because it does require, if not
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one-to-one, at least very small groups.
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Mm-hmm.
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And if you've got groups, you need a lot of, a lot of, you know,
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instructors or facilitators or whatever we want to call ourselves.
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Let's just talk a bit now about your, you've got a rather special program there.
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Can you give us a snapshot of what you do?
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Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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So we have the amazing luck to live on this beautiful old Dutch farm with a small
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herd of seven horses, four of which I use.
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I, I hate the word use.
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I don't use horses by with, in the therapy setting.
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And I have kids here, mainly individual who come for sessions
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of one and a half hours.
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And then we work with them on, on their goals.
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And of course you have to have like properly written down, at least in
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the Netherlands, it's paid for by the municipality, so you need the
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goals on the list and everything.
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Nice.
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But of course then the kid comes in and maybe something totally
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different is going on on that day.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Katja Mehlhorn: So it often feels like you kind of set a safe space where they
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can come in, they calm down, you do some jokes and some movement and some
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action, and then you kind of just yeah, facilitate that that things can happen.
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And that can be very like social emotional goals, but it can also be math or yeah.
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Whatever is at that moment important for that.
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So,
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Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
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You will go to the academic stuff as well if people Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So talk to us about someone coming in w with difficulties with maths h how, give
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us some ideas about how you approach this.
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Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
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So I, I have this autistic boy that's been coming for a couple of years.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Katja Mehlhorn: And we've worked on all kind of things, but recently math is a
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thing because they have to, well do math in school and he decided he's bad at it.
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So nothing with numbers was like even allowed, but he loves Formula One.
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So as part of his lessons always we do racing.
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So then he decides which race car, the horses, and then we race around and
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then the horse becomes another race car.
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So at some point we added, oh, does this race car also have a number?
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So just kind of throwing in numbers for fun without doing anything
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for it or with it at some point we actually like, took the time.
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It took, what do you call it, with stopwatch?
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Rupert Isaacson: Oh yes.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Timed it.
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Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
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We, we timed it and then we wrote on a whiteboard, the, the times.
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And then he even actually also wanted to write a time, and then he write a to wrote
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a total bogus time, but it doesn't matter.
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He, he wrote a time and he got really excited by, Hey, that that's
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numbers and that has something so, so slowly kind of, we, we dropped the
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numbers in a way that are not scary.
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You don't have to do anything with them, which just kind of introduced in Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: Just start a relationship with them where the numbers are safe.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Katja Mehlhorn: We do, did a lot of step counting.
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Mm-hmm.
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Also like the horse trots 10 steps and then we kind of a rule-based game.
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The next person can decide how many steps and then we have to take turns
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and he has to like, keep track of whose turn it is to, to say a number and then.
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Rupert Isaacson: I am just thinking about a, we, we, we have a version of
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the, the time it takes to do something where we'll walk the distance first.
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Mm-hmm.
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So let's say, we'll walk it out in meters ourselves, just in steps, but we'll do
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it, you know, in a silly walk styley, or we'll do it as ostriches or as ducks
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or just anything to make it funny.
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Yeah.
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Or in a way that as you say, now we're all Formula One drivers or something.
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And then we can calculate of course, the distance over time.
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It gets speed.
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And it's really interesting, we've had so many kids who.
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Have this difficult problem with math.
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I was one of those kids, of course who then fall into doing these types of
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experiments with numbers really easily, because as far as they're concerned,
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this is no longer a math lesson.
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This is just mm-hmm.
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Trying to find out how fast am I, you know, let alone how fast are you.
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And I'm always astonished that when people are in school numbers
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are not presented in this way.
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So many of us are made to feel unsafe around numbers because it, it, it often
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goes with sarcasm and scorn and you know, it, when I was a boy, we even got beaten.
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So, you know, you knew that a trip to the whiteboard to get it wrong in
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front of the whole class could also result in physical violence, you know?
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So, you know, naturally we became number averse.
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But there's so much shame around numbers.
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Tell me, yeah.
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Okay.
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You make people feel safe with this.
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You yourself are a numbers girl because you know, you, you've come up through the
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science route and I know you, you know, so I know that you, you have a facility
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for numbers and something that can be difficult, I find for people who do have
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a talent for numbers, is empathizing and putting themselves in the shoes of
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people who struggle with this because it comes somewhat naturally to you.
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What was your process in getting over that so that you could actually
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empathize with someone that sees numbers very differently to the way you do?
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Katja Mehlhorn: I, I, that's weird to say.
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Do you have a talent?
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But I think I, I have a talent in that sense that I'm pretty good at or at
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kind of getting at where someone is at.
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Mm-hmm.
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I'm pretty good at imagining how this, if you can't do things, there's enough
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things I've, I've struggled with.
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So I, I, I don't remember that I went through that phase actually.
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So that's
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Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
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Yeah.
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Did you, what, what did you struggle with?
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Because I think, I think it needs as a super brain, so I'm like, what,
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what, what could catch a probab possibly struggle with academically?
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Katja Mehlhorn: Well, ac academically, well, well actually like higher
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math, definitely I did struggle with.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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Katja Mehlhorn: But I, I struggle a lot with like physical things like horse
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riding, dancing, those, those things.
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I always feel like, oh, some people can do it so easy and
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it takes me so much effort to
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Rupert Isaacson: what, what do you find that's really interesting to me.
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What do you find is your biggest physical challenge?
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'cause again, knowing you, I know you as a bit of an athlete, I mean,
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you are, you're always running around, you're in great shape.
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We've worked together with horses.
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I haven't observed you having any particular difficulty.
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What do you, what do you see as your difficulty?
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Do you feel, and do you feel that's actually more something mental?
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Or is that actually something question?
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Katja Mehlhorn: I think, I think rhythm, like.
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S in high school dancing class was, was hell because I just couldn't let myself
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be let, but I also couldn't lead myself.
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So,
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But also to like, have tension in the right part of the body
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and relaxation in the right part, which you need for writing.
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Then like, oh no, your back moves at the wrong point.
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And I just can't, like, how do people do it?
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I can't figure out that.
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Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you then, okay, so do you struggle with this
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concept of tension and relaxation?
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Relaxation and tension?
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Like, you know, being relaxed enough that you can move fluidly, but
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having enough tension that you don't
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Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I seem to relax in the wrong body parts and
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keep tension in the wrong body.
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I don't know.
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Rupert Isaacson: Do, and then do you, do you encounter, 'cause you, you, your, your
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program is both ridden and on the ground.
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Mm-hmm.
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Right?
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So how do you help people when you see them?
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Encountering the same problems in the ridden as you might have,
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what's your go-to for helping them?
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Katja Mehlhorn: That that's actually inter interesting.
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'cause I had a discussion with a couple of my more advanced students
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and they said, oh, but you are so great at explaining those things.
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And I thought like, wait, really?
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But then I thought, yeah, I really had to go through all the steps myself
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to figure out exactly which muscle and in what way does it have to move.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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Katja Mehlhorn: Compared to a very talented rider who just says, sit
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straight and move with the horse.
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And I'm like I don't know how to do that.
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Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
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So if you, when you have to break it, can you give us an example of
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how you break this down for someone?
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I think a lot of people listening and watching will go, yeah,
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actually I have that problem too.
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And I would imagine that a number of people that you think Katia are
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very good writers, probably struggle with this more than they let on.
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So yeah, tell us how you break it down.
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Katja Mehlhorn: Well, exercise I really like is the, I don't know, what do they
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call those Russian dolls that are on the
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Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
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Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
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Kind of a balancing
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Rupert Isaacson: oh.
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For us, the Russian dolls are the ones that you open
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and, and it's like, yeah, no,
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Katja Mehlhorn: they're, they're the other ones that have like a heavy s
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Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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You can't push them over.
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They have a Yeah, okay.
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A weight on the bottom.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Katja Mehlhorn: So, so put someone on the horse and say, okay, lean
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forward a bit till you feel that you would drop on your nose.
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If I magic away the horse.
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And that's like, great for kids and like, oh, you can do magic.
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So always add some fun and not make it too serious.
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Okay.
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Now lean backward a bit till you feel you would land on your ass.
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If I match you away the horse and then kind of slowly swing
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and, and, and find the middle.
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'cause then you know you are in, in balance compared to
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just sit straight or sit in.
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Did
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Rupert Isaacson: you do that with the horse first, not moving?
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Katja Mehlhorn: Yes, definitely.
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And sometimes even on the ground first.
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Okay.
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Rupert Isaacson: So let's say you start on the ground, then
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you'd go to a non-moving horse.
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How do you help them once the horse starts moving?
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Because that, that brings in other variables, right?
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Like side to side, et cetera.
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Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So we, we also do it side to side, indeed, and then first at the walk,
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and I lead the horse around and sometimes that don't close their eyes.
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That really helps to feel also
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Rupert Isaacson: then when it comes to, okay, so I could
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see exploring the boundaries.
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Yeah.
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What's the middle point?
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Closing your eyes for feel.
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This is very good.
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Also starting not on the horse.
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I'm a great believer, as you know, in starting everything
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we're gonna do with a pony.
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Not with a pony.
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Yeah.
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So that we can have a muscle memory to bring to the pony.
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Only took me 500 years to work that one out.
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But Okay.
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Then once they're up there and you want to then develop them, how have
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you, let's start with you yourself.
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How did you develop yourself?
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Beyond that point, and then how do you show them how to do that?
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Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
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The what's always really useful too, I think is practicing in like
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sitting throughout or standing.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
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Katja Mehlhorn: Or for example, not just to, how do you call it?
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Up down?
18:12
No, you don't call it like
18:13
Rupert Isaacson: hosting or rising.
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Yeah,
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Katja Mehlhorn: yeah, yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: Hosting for the Americans, rising for the Brits.
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Yes.
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Katja Mehlhorn: So, but then do it in another rhythm.
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So rise for two, sit for one, or rise for four, sit for four, rise for eight.
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Sit for eight.
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You can directly make a game of that again with with the
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kids who are number challenged.
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Rupert Isaacson: That was gonna be my, my question.
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If you combine numbers with balance like that, what's the result for the brain?
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Katja Mehlhorn: Well, hopefully you get learning because, because that,
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Rupert Isaacson: that sounds to me like vestibular system activation,
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right?
18:45
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
18:45
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
18:46
And again, for those listeners who dunno what the vestibular
18:51
system is, don't worry.
18:52
It's those three little bones in your inner ear, which act like a
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sort of spirit level to, to make sure you don't lose your balance.
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Apparently when that gets activated it puts our bodies on high alert
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because we obviously don't wanna fall.
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So it seems to be connected with long-term learning.
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And it is very interesting to me.
19:13
The two languages that I, I speak French, I, as you know, my German is by
19:18
no means perfect, but it's functional.
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And both of those I learned on the back of a horse.
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Rather than in a classroom.
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And I would posit that it, it was because of the vestibular system activation.
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That vocabulary tends to stay in my head if it's given to me.
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In that, and we have this really good teacher called Cade Lang, who
19:37
does movement method in Colorado, who does a lot of his math while making
19:41
kids just balance along a curb of a street or a curb of the parking lot.
19:45
And he says this also, you know, gets these things going.
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When you, when you, when these kids then after playing these numbers games, go
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back to school, do you get any feedback from them, the parents or the teachers?
19:58
C
19:58
Katja Mehlhorn: certainly.
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So the, I think the, the goal that I have is not to actually teach them the numbers,
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because I can't do that in one and a half hours a week or even every two weeks.
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But to kind of get them, I'm scared of the numbers.
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Yeah.
20:12
So they there to do it in school again.
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Actually that boy, at some point, the mom texted me very excitedly.
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He's doing sums by himself.
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He's just writing down sums and doing them.
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And now he's actually totally into multiplication table.
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So every time he comes, now we have to teach the horse
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a new multiplication table.
20:29
We are getting very smart horses this way.
20:31
Okay.
20:32
Yeah.
20:32
Rupert Isaacson: Your horses must be, yeah.
20:34
Are they, are they they're probably gonna graduate from your program and go
20:36
get jobs at the university themselves?
20:38
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, they're literate for sure.
20:39
Yeah.
20:42
Rupert Isaacson: The, these kinds of kids that you're talking about here
20:45
with anxiety, learning difficulties, social emotional, these of course
20:50
are kids that can, for the most part, follow top down instruction.
20:53
Talk to us about how you approach somebody with more classic autism, particularly
20:58
in the younger years where top down instruction is really not a possibility.
21:03
What's your way in there?
21:04
How do you, how do you go?
21:06
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, I.
21:07
Mainly I have kids that are a little higher on the, on the functioning level.
21:12
I don't have any nonverbal, at least haven't had in a while.
21:16
But, but even then, like the boy I'm talking about now, he's, you, you
21:19
cannot have a normal conversation.
21:21
Normal whatever's normal, but like we are having now, you,
21:24
you couldn't have with him.
21:25
Mm-hmm.
21:26
So it's, it's a lot true, true game and to, like me and the volunteers talking
21:32
about something with him, hearing it and then trying to involve him and if he
21:37
doesn't wanna be involved, just hoping that he will soak it up in some way.
21:42
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
21:42
Would you, would you say lead him through the game on the horse,
21:45
perhaps without asking him up first to understand True with a capital U?
21:51
Katja Mehlhorn: Definitely.
21:51
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
21:52
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
21:52
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
21:52
One of the things which you know, I know some people listening might say,
21:56
well, you know, how, how can that help?
21:58
But of course what we're talking about here is neuroplasticity, right?
22:01
That.
22:02
Remem remembering that all movement, particularly if the body has
22:06
to solve problems like balance while the movement is going on.
22:10
And that of course is gonna happen on a horse.
22:12
This causes the brain to produce that protein, BDNF, which creates neurons.
22:19
So yes, you're going to see progress because you're just creating more neurons.
22:25
And I wish this were understood better at schools.
22:29
When we are doing say, movement method in schools, one of the hardest things to
22:34
get people to get their heads around is not separating movement from learning.
22:40
Yeah.
22:40
Not saying, if you do this boring thing you don't want to do, I will reward you.
22:45
Then you're
22:45
Katja Mehlhorn: play.
22:45
Yeah.
22:46
Yeah.
22:46
Rupert Isaacson: Just go and play.
22:47
Have the conversation and integrate that thing into the play.
22:52
And that's why sport is so good.
22:53
And.
22:55
The neuroplasticity will begin to happen and that person will have a very
23:00
different brain in six weeks to the brain that came through the door simply
23:05
because of that neuroplasticity process.
23:07
And this, I feel, isn't taught enough in the equine assisted world, really,
23:13
that what is our goal here, you know?
23:17
And for me the goal, I guess as an autism day is always neuroplasticity.
23:20
Mm-hmm.
23:21
But it has to be surely also for mental, emotional stuff.
23:24
Right.
23:24
Because you don't wanna be in a static state.
23:27
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
23:28
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
23:28
You want to develop on you, you understand this neuroplasticity thing Well,
23:34
can you give us a bunch of examples?
23:39
I think it'd be really useful for people to have practical examples of a
23:44
number of things that you would do at Horse Kids Corning, and specifically
23:47
kind of aimed at this neuroplasticity.
23:52
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I mean, I think it, it comes in, in all the time.
23:55
I, one of the important things, I, I think that's, you can't underestimate
23:59
importance is safety, that you feel safe because the, the brain can't learn
24:03
if it doesn't feel safe, because then it's just in the wrong kind of state
24:08
and, and, and movement, which is fun.
24:11
It, it activates the brain, but it also again helps to, to feel safe
24:16
unless you run away or fight, I guess.
24:18
So, yeah.
24:20
So I think it's, it's a bit part of, of everything, but I was just like
24:25
triggered by something you said, like you let them go through the game
24:30
without asking them to understand it.
24:32
And I think that's really
24:34
Rupert Isaacson: absolute.
24:34
Yeah, yeah.
24:34
Yeah.
24:35
Katja Mehlhorn: That's really important that you don't put pressure on there
24:38
or ask their attention because then again, there's this danger of someone's
24:42
asking something from me and then, then the learning is not happening.
24:46
E
24:46
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
24:47
I find this even with myself, like, if you want me to understand
24:51
something new, you have to give me a bit of time to just get used to it.
24:56
Get used to the fact that it's happening around me.
24:58
So if I take that to someone with, you know, massive anxiety, or I take that to
25:03
somebody with autism and the anxiety that goes with autism and feeling confused in
25:08
the world, then this thing of you asking for feedback, asking for eye contact,
25:13
asking for attention, constantly wanting them to say or do something, ends up being
25:21
interpreted by the brain as a threat.
25:23
Mm-hmm.
25:23
And
25:24
as we know, that makes the brain tell the body to produce cortisol,
25:28
which actually kills brain cells.
25:30
But it's so natural, of course, in a human to want to get that feedback.
25:35
How do you.
25:38
Discipline yourself.
25:39
It, it took me a while to discipline myself.
25:43
How do you discipline yourself to not ask for that feedback?
25:47
To wait for that feedback to come?
25:50
Katja Mehlhorn: Usually you get punished because I, I mean, I still do it all
25:53
the time, but then you see the ice place over and you're like, oh, damn.
25:57
Yeah, that was, I shouldn't have asked.
25:59
But then you make a joke of it, or,
26:01
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
26:03
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
26:04
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's an interesting skill though.
26:06
How long do you think it's taken you to acquire that skill of having
26:10
that light approach where you are not asking for feedback so much?
26:16
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
26:17
I don't, I'm, I'm still learning.
26:19
I don't know.
26:19
Mm-hmm.
26:21
I am, I've been, I got licensed as path instructor in 2012, so, mm-hmm.
26:28
And yeah, hopefully we are getting better every day.
26:30
I don't think you are ever done with learning that, and then you
26:33
have another kid and you might need to do it more or less.
26:37
I think the the thing you really need to do is listen to the kid
26:41
and as you always say, follow the kid and, and, and see what happens.
26:45
I mean, you just try something and sometimes works.
26:48
How do we listen to a kid?
26:49
But sometimes it doesn't.
26:50
Yeah.
26:51
Rupert Isaacson: How do we, how do we listen to a kid who's either
26:53
not talking nonverbal or not wanting to express themselves?
26:59
Talk to us about that kind of listening.
27:01
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
27:02
Well, it's great we have the horses because they, they listen for us.
27:05
So often you can see in directions of the horse if there is tension in
27:08
a kit if you can't see it yourself.
27:11
Mm-hmm.
27:11
So there's all kind of signals, horses.
27:15
Kind of give, they're called calming signals.
27:18
There's a Dutch person, you know,
27:21
Rupert Isaacson: no talk, talk, talk to me about this person.
27:23
Katja Mehlhorn: She has she did actually great research mm-hmm.
27:26
On hours and hours of videos where she watched horses and determined signals that
27:34
more horses do that show that they are either, so that they're basically changing
27:39
between sympa and parasympathetic state.
27:41
So between stress and relaxation and those are the signals that we also
27:46
know, for example, in the Masterson method, they also know a lot of those.
27:50
So the blink of the eye or chewing or licking, lowering your head.
27:58
The also more, more stress signals like the eyes getting very big or
28:03
horses kind of fumbling on their body to kind of get attention out.
28:09
But yeah, tho those signals, if you, if you, the more you to learn to, to, to, to
28:13
read your horses, the more you kind of see from the horse's reaction also on what's
28:18
happening with the, with the client.
28:20
Rupert Isaacson: Give us the name of this lady, Rachel Rael.
28:23
Rashelle.
28:24
Katja Mehlhorn: Rema.
28:25
Rupert Isaacson: Ima, how do I spell that?
28:26
R
28:28
Katja Mehlhorn: double A-I-S-M-A-I think.
28:33
Rupert Isaacson: R-A-A-I-S-M-A.
28:35
I'm gonna go look up.
28:36
Look her up, Rachel.
28:38
Well, yeah.
28:38
'cause this is an interesting thing with the equine assisted
28:41
world, is that it, it, you know, it's such a diverse world, right?
28:47
From the path approach where these sort of leading kids around through
28:50
activities to horse boy, where we're
28:54
Katja Mehlhorn: looking
28:55
Rupert Isaacson: for neuroplasticity with a child in front of us in the saddle and
28:58
oxytocin to, you know, the e gala or other types of, you know, on the ground models.
29:05
They're all.
29:06
Very much based on needing the horse to guide us.
29:11
Mm-hmm.
29:12
Or we kind of can't do the thing.
29:14
And so I'm often quite surprised when one sees, for example, grumpy horses
29:19
in a program or horses that are quite obviously not doing well physically that
29:28
this isn't addressed more so that kind of, because I think what you're talking
29:34
about, whether it's looking at this Rachel Rema ladies work or say Masterson's
29:40
work, which is also really good.
29:43
That's more about learning how to interpret and help our horse.
29:49
Of course, by the time we are working with a vulnerable human with a horse.
29:55
We can't really do that well unless the horse is at a state of wellbeing mm-hmm.
30:01
That, you know, it can then transfer that wellbeing.
30:03
Right.
30:03
You know, to that person.
30:05
So
30:10
when we are looking for those signals from a horse in a session, we are
30:14
hoping that the baseline of the horse is, is now one of wellbeing.
30:20
Yeah.
30:20
Which, so you've got your herd of seven.
30:24
Talk us through this.
30:26
How do you ensure your horse's wellbeing?
30:29
I'm, I'm really, I'm every, 'cause I, everyone's got their own
30:32
approaches for this and it's, it's.
30:34
It should be obviously the main conversation.
30:37
Yes.
30:38
Because these are our biggest colleagues, right?
30:40
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.
30:40
And and I think that, yeah, you can't underestimate how important that is
30:43
because I mean, yes, I have to fight for the kids who come to me, but they have
30:47
also other people who fight for them.
30:49
My horses, I'm the, I'm the only advocate they have, so I
30:51
have to make sure and Right.
30:52
And
30:52
Rupert Isaacson: the horses can't do it unless you are advocating for them.
30:55
So, yeah.
30:56
So what's your, what's, talk us through your sort of general horse wellness.
30:59
Yeah,
30:59
Katja Mehlhorn: so, so they, they live in a herd outside, but we also have the
31:03
luck to have an indoor arena, at least an old shed that's an indoor arena.
31:07
And they, that's their walk in shelter as well.
31:11
Okay.
31:12
Unless we actually use it for writing, but then we can even split
31:14
it in a way that they still have part of it for, for themselves.
31:18
Yeah.
31:19
They, they go out in the, in the field on the grass, but it's
31:22
Dutch very rich McDonald's grass.
31:25
So unfortunately we can't do the 24 hours a day.
31:27
Yeah.
31:28
We have a big hay feeder, which is automated.
31:32
Okay.
31:32
So they get regular times feeding without long breaks, but they also
31:38
don't eat too much because Yeah.
31:40
What's in there is the McDonald's grass hay.
31:41
Of course.
31:42
Yeah.
31:43
So, so that's kind of to make the, I think the three FI feed France and forage.
31:49
That's kind of the, that's what we have in any place.
31:51
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
31:52
I always feel one has to add another F in there, which is fitness.
31:55
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
31:56
Rupert Isaacson: And I don't often see this addressed enough.
31:59
I was lucky 'cause I grew up in that.
32:02
Eventing fox hunting world in the UK where fitness is kind of drummed into
32:06
you, and soundness meaning long, slow trail rides, basically to make sure the
32:11
horse's tendons are fit and all of that.
32:12
But I didn't realize also the emotional importance of that in horses until I
32:17
started going to places that didn't do it.
32:20
First in the sport world, in the jumping world in in America where I
32:24
encountered some of my first really unhappy horses and I was like, Ooh.
32:28
They don't, they don't, they just don't do this fitness work.
32:32
And I know with myself, if I don't walk I go funny in the head.
32:37
So, but it's very difficult in a, in a program when one has, you know, clients
32:43
coming in all the time, how does one find this time for the fitness work?
32:46
Or how does one integrate perhaps better the fitness work into the sessions?
32:51
Talk to us about that.
32:52
'cause I know you, you actually do keep your horses pretty fit.
32:54
How, how do you, how do you manage them?
32:57
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
32:58
Yeah.
32:58
So part of it is of course, that they can, they can actually move on the track
33:02
system they live on, we, we measured and that they move about like 10 to 14
33:06
kilometers a day just by themselves.
33:09
But, but yeah, of course that, that's not enough and especially the
33:11
fat ponies who like to move less.
33:14
So indeed, I try to sneakily in the lessons and in the sessions,
33:21
als always include something that we are working on with the horse.
33:25
So maybe walking poles I don't know if we work on can, then the
33:30
kids are gonna counter that week.
33:32
And we also do a lot of on, on mental fitness.
33:35
So we do a lot of clicker training trick training, agility things.
33:40
So we have mm-hmm.
33:42
It's called teeter totter.
33:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
33:43
Like a, a seesaw, a balance cto.
33:45
Yeah.
33:45
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
33:46
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
33:46
Katja Mehlhorn: And, and on a block they, they can go on.
33:49
And and recently I've started to, to do the stuff that you are
33:55
teaching us with the classical triage more than than I used to.
33:59
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
34:00
Katja Mehlhorn: And for
34:01
Rupert Isaacson: the, for the, for any listeners who, who hold up a crucifix
34:04
at the dreaded D word dressage, of course, for many people being synonymous
34:09
with the devil we're not so much talking about ridden dressage here.
34:13
We're talking about in-hand work.
34:14
And long reigning work doesn't mean you can't do the ridden work, but
34:19
without that in hand component and the long raining component, the
34:22
written work is, can be detrimental.
34:25
Whereas the, I was just in, I was just, before this podcast, I was
34:29
just in the round pen with one of my older horses and we're just going
34:32
through the in hand patterns gently, and it's such a yoga, you know?
34:36
And I'm like, oh yeah.
34:37
Upward dog is pattern one, shoulder in and downward dog is counter shoulders in.
34:41
And you know, when one thinks about it in those terms, of
34:44
course it makes perfect sense.
34:45
And if one approaches it in that way, it, it makes sense for a horse.
34:49
But if one approaches it in a kind of performance based way, well
34:53
then the stresses are obvious.
34:55
The, so as you've been exploring this classical stuff, can you talk to us
35:01
about how you do it and what the, what effects have you seen with your horses?
35:07
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so it, I, I must admit it was kind of a difficult
35:12
path for me because I'm like the long reins in the forest rider.
35:17
Like, just have fun with the horses.
35:19
Yeah.
35:19
And filter soft stuff.
35:20
It's too difficult.
35:21
I can't do it anyway with my challenge body.
35:23
That was kind of my idea.
35:26
But it has really helped.
35:27
So especially by starting.
35:30
Next to the horse, it really helps that the horse can figures out the movements
35:35
without you challenged human on there.
35:38
Mm.
35:38
And that really has helped to improve the riding.
35:42
So actually just last week I was at a, a course that I've been on
35:47
and off for a couple of years.
35:49
Mm.
35:49
And we worked on the Cantor and they were like, wow, that, that goes well.
35:53
Like, what did you do to work on the Cantor?
35:55
Like since last time, like, actually I didn't at all.
35:59
It's just all this enhanced stuff I've been doing and
36:01
magically the cantor got better.
36:03
So what
36:05
Rupert Isaacson: do you see emotionally and mentally in
36:07
the horses with Ian hand work?
36:10
Katja Mehlhorn: I, because I, I know that you have, you always say that
36:15
there's horses that don't like, wanna work with you and then through the
36:18
internet work they get softer and easier.
36:21
I think I'm pretty lucky in that my horses already wanted to work.
36:25
So in that sense, I don't see too much.
36:28
Although the one I'm working most with in hand work right
36:32
now is my paint quarter horse.
36:34
Mm-hmm.
36:34
Who's kind of stuck in his ways.
36:36
Like, he's like, okay, I can do those tricks and that's what I'm doing.
36:39
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
36:40
Katja Mehlhorn: So
36:41
Rupert Isaacson: description?
36:42
Yes.
36:42
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
36:42
You ask something new, he's like, ah, what now?
36:46
Shut down.
36:47
Ideally.
36:48
So he's getting more like.
36:50
Oh yeah, you're doing the counting things and and okay, I'm on.
36:54
So yeah, it has, it has helped.
36:57
Rupert Isaacson: It'll be interesting to see how that horse develops
36:59
because, you know, as you know, in, we were in Texas for a long time
37:02
and we had a lot of quarter horses.
37:03
And quarter horses are great in one way in which is that, as you said, if you show
37:08
them a job and they get really familiar with that job, then they'll own that job.
37:12
And it really almost doesn't matter who you put on them.
37:14
Mm-hmm.
37:15
Unless it's like a really hot barrel racing horse or something.
37:18
But yeah, there's something in the genetic that when you change the job
37:23
description, which of course one has to, from time to time, you can often
37:27
get this kind of weird overreaction, almost like, hysterical, what?
37:32
I can't believe you're asking me to move an extra two millimeters, you know?
37:36
And I'm like, dude, you know, it's only two millimeters.
37:39
And then of course when they get used to that.
37:42
Then they're like, well, I've always been doing that, you know?
37:44
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah,
37:44
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
37:45
And like, well then why would you make such a fuss the other day?
37:47
Well, I didn't do that.
37:48
For me, the in hand work was a real game changer that way that
37:51
we saw these massive changes.
37:54
And as you know, you're lucky, as you say, 'cause you've got a pretty
37:57
long term integrated herd there.
37:59
We do now ourselves as well.
38:02
But in the old days, we had a lot of donation horses coming through and
38:06
also donation horses that we had to then rehab and put in other programs,
38:11
and we found, yeah, I think it goes back to this BDNF neuroplasticity
38:17
protein in the brain thing.
38:19
I can't prove this, but it seems that, because as you know, in these patterns
38:23
that you do with the in hand work, you go and you go, you get the horse across,
38:28
its midline all the time with its legs.
38:32
And we do know from humans, like in martial arts and yoga, if, and
38:35
dance, if we cross our midlines a lot, we get more neuroplasticity.
38:40
It really does seem to change the personality of the horse and make it
38:44
just way more of a flexible thinker.
38:47
And I think we've seen this now so many times that even though I
38:52
can't prove this scientifically, just from observation, we see it.
38:57
But what we've also seen, and this is kind of what I want to talk about
39:01
maybe next, is that when we get people to do this with the horses, we get
39:07
a similar flexibility in the brain.
39:11
Mm-hmm.
39:11
I mean, I think you just put yourself there as an example.
39:13
You know, when I first met you, you were a little bit rigid about.
39:18
What you considered acceptable and what you considered not acceptable
39:21
to do with horses and so on.
39:22
And over the course of time that I've known you, you've
39:25
become more and more flexible.
39:27
And so have, are you now pairing up your staff, your clients with this kind
39:36
of in hand work and with the horses?
39:38
And if so, what are you observing with them?
39:42
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so, so I think that's a great question.
39:45
And it's something like I, I'm doing that now, but, but even before that,
39:51
I tried as much as possible to have the clients help with the horses.
39:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
39:56
Katja Mehlhorn: I mean, that helps me.
39:57
That's great.
39:58
But also it's so great for their self-confidence.
40:02
Oh, I can help you.
40:02
You, you got a new horse and you asked me to help with it, and I'm the one,
40:06
the first one who can trot on him.
40:08
I mean, if it, it's true or not, whatever, but to, to give them
40:12
the feeling like, wow, I'm not just here for myself, but also to.
40:17
To contribute something for example, or, or aside from the self-confidence
40:23
thing, something just that they are able to do something for the horse
40:27
can be so impactful for people.
40:30
I have a very, someone very bad childhood drama.
40:35
Mm-hmm.
40:35
And I let her do the masters in like the simple masters in technique.
40:39
It's the bladder meridian.
40:41
You just slowly move your hand over a line on the body and you look at the
40:45
signals of the horse, and then you see things like a blink, you weight, and
40:49
then at some point the horse, you get to big chewing, yawning, amazing action.
40:54
And she was just moved to tears like, wow, am I doing this to the horse?
40:58
Can I actually make the horse feel better?
41:01
Because she didn't think she could be useful for anyone.
41:06
So that, that can be so impactful.
41:09
And that's the same with help having them Yeah.
41:13
Help to train the horse, of course, in, in those patterns and helping them
41:17
train the horse, get, get stronger.
41:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
41:20
I think there's a particular crossover there with trauma, as you say.
41:23
You know, we, there's a, a number of programs that we work with, with
41:27
veterans and we found that getting them to do the in-hand work that's
41:32
the TEKE program seems to have this direct correlation of, particularly
41:36
when it's a new horse that needs rehab.
41:38
'cause as you know, people, people who donate horses are
41:41
not donating their best horse.
41:42
So usually they're donating it for a reason.
41:45
It's got some problem or problems there and needs rehab.
41:49
And if, if the, if the underlying script is this horse was broken in service could
41:56
you please help me bring this horse back so that it can now serve that autistic
42:02
child over there, there seems to be.
42:06
Such a value in that, that we didn't see initially, we couldn't
42:11
have anticipated initially.
42:13
'cause as you know, when we started doing it, we did it out of desperation
42:17
because we were running out of time to condition our own horses.
42:20
And then I had this kind of duh moment where I was like, but hold on, Rupert,
42:25
the, the clients are the horse trainers.
42:27
Surely.
42:28
Yeah.
42:28
You know?
42:29
And indeed that turned out to be, to be the case.
42:32
Okay.
42:32
So
42:33
Katja Mehlhorn: can I, can I jump in on that?
42:35
Please, please.
42:35
Because I please, I'm just thinking of, of amazing place I've visited and
42:40
I also helped to do some research on
42:42
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
42:43
Katja Mehlhorn: And where they, they are a horse rescue and they also at some
42:47
point just started having kids come in and now, now they're also child rescue.
42:51
Mm-hmm.
42:52
So they work with, at Rescue Youth and they just do amazing things and
42:56
one of the ingredients is that they pair the child with a rescue horse.
43:00
And then the child's kind of task is to, to rehab that horse.
43:05
That makes so much sense.
43:06
Tell me what,
43:06
Rupert Isaacson: what's the name of this place?
43:08
Katja Mehlhorn: It's Brook Hill Farm.
43:09
Rupert Isaacson: Brook Hill?
43:10
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
43:11
In Virginia.
43:13
I think Joan Ann Miller is the director.
43:15
Virginia.
43:16
Yeah.
43:16
You should talk to her.
43:17
She's, I
43:18
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.
43:18
I'm gonna talk to, yeah.
43:20
What's the name of the person?
43:22
Katja Mehlhorn: Joanne Miller.
43:23
Rupert Isaacson: Joanne.
43:24
One word or Okay.
43:25
Joanne Miller.
43:27
I'll, I'll look her up.
43:28
And that's Horse Rescue.
43:32
Horse and Kid Rescue.
43:33
Yeah.
43:33
Yeah.
43:34
I can feel another podcast coming on.
43:36
There we go.
43:36
Thank you very much.
43:37
I will be in contact with her.
43:39
Katja Mehlhorn: They have done, why,
43:40
Rupert Isaacson: why did you go there and do research?
43:42
What took you there?
43:43
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh, well, I, I met her at, I went to the Path
43:46
Conference years and years ago.
43:47
Mm-hmm.
43:47
And I met her there and we stayed in contact.
43:50
And then when we, we lived in the us we, before moving back to Europe, we
43:54
did a six week tour of the whole states.
43:57
And then we, we stayed with her a couple of days and we talked about, okay,
44:01
how can you, because you're doing such amazing stuff, how can you actually show
44:04
that in a way that others take serious?
44:09
And then we started setting up this research paper, which I think
44:12
got published finally last year.
44:14
Took us like 10 years or so.
44:17
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
44:20
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44:24
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44:28
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44:35
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44:43
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45:36
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45:39
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45:44
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45:48
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45:51
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45:59
absolutely gives you this.
46:01
What were the findings and where did you publish it?
46:04
Katja Mehlhorn: At the HEI Journal.
46:05
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
46:06
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
46:06
Rupert Isaacson: And so we could find it there?
46:08
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.
46:09
Yeah.
46:10
Rupert Isaacson: Published by you, catcher Melbourne.
46:11
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
46:12
I'm one of the author, yeah.
46:13
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
46:13
So what were the findings?
46:15
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so, well, the, the findings was that all kids who
46:21
started the program actually completed high school, which was very unlikely
46:26
for that population because they all started because they were at
46:29
risk of dropping out of high school.
46:30
So
46:30
Rupert Isaacson: what was, how long were they usually in the program for?
46:34
Katja Mehlhorn: De depended on how far it was to high school graduation.
46:38
So some started like two years before, and I don't remember the exact numbers.
46:45
Right.
46:45
Rupert Isaacson: But we are not talking like a period of weeks here we're talking.
46:47
No,
46:47
Katja Mehlhorn: no, no.
46:48
It's just really long term.
46:49
That's also, so in the paper we discuss a couple of factors that could play a
46:53
role and the pair pairing with the, with the rescue horse was one, but also that
46:57
it's really a long-term relationship.
47:01
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
47:01
Katja Mehlhorn: There.
47:01
Rupert Isaacson: But as you know, I mean a lot of that's, it seems to be
47:04
a lot of the success behind animal, all animal assisted therapies is
47:09
that people will tend to finish the
47:12
mm-hmm.
47:12
Yeah.
47:12
Course
47:13
of therapy because they now have a relationship with the animal.
47:16
Yes.
47:16
Rather than a relationship with a boring old therapist who sits
47:20
there in a chair making them feel terrible about themselves.
47:22
Yeah.
47:22
Yeah.
47:23
Okay, so.
47:24
They, they would tend to go on and finish high school.
47:27
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
47:28
Rupert Isaacson: What were, no,
47:29
Katja Mehlhorn: not 10 to all of them finished high school.
47:30
All of them?
47:31
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
47:31
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
47:31
All of them.
47:32
Yeah.
47:32
Rupert Isaacson: What was the control group?
47:34
How many people were there?
47:35
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
47:35
So it wasn't actually good researching in that sense.
47:39
So we just looked at, at what they did.
47:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
47:42
Katja Mehlhorn: Because it's not how many
47:42
Rupert Isaacson: people in the group?
47:44
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh, oh, what was, oh, the size of the group.
47:46
I think they were a hundred or something like that.
47:48
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
47:48
Okay.
47:48
Well, that's, yeah.
47:49
That's sizable.
47:50
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
47:51
Yeah.
47:52
Rupert Isaacson: Were there other factors like criminal behaviors or
47:55
violent behaviors or anything like that?
47:58
Social emotional stuff?
47:59
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
47:59
We, we don't, didn't have numbers on that, but from like what the, what they
48:04
reported definitely that, that got better.
48:07
Because yeah, they.
48:10
They did not get kicked out of school and they, they could finish school.
48:14
A lot of them also came from pretty bad backgrounds.
48:18
Yes.
48:19
And, and despite that, they, they persevered and I think
48:22
almost all of them went on to like, post high school education.
48:26
Yeah.
48:27
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know how
48:28
Katja Mehlhorn: full stuff
48:29
Rupert Isaacson: Joanne Miller gets this funded?
48:30
Because, you know, unlike, unlike in the Netherlands where you've actually
48:34
got government funding for this, and I know this from having worked so
48:37
many years in the USAIDs tends to be philanthropy, you know, has, this is
48:42
quite a big program by the sounds of
48:43
Katja Mehlhorn: it.
48:43
Yeah.
48:43
I I think by now they actually got that far that they got paid,
48:47
get paid by the school system.
48:49
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
48:49
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
48:50
So that took of course, years of of donating and, and
48:54
fundraising and everything.
48:55
And also because they're horse rescue, they get some funding through that.
48:59
But yeah, by now the, the.
49:01
As my last at least last time I talked to her, the school district
49:05
actually paid because That's great.
49:07
Okay.
49:07
These kids, if they go there, they will finish school.
49:10
So,
49:10
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
49:11
Well, Brook Hill Farm, I'm gonna gonna look them up.
49:14
One of the things which as you know, we, with our methods Horse Boy Method
49:20
Movement method, we actually ascribe the most importance to is the environment.
49:26
Mm-hmm.
49:26
We've definitely found that bringing a horse in, if the physical environment
49:34
is full of bad sensory triggers for the human, and if the emotional environment is
49:40
not good as well if people are bossy, if people are, you know, walking around with
49:45
that body language that a lot of horsey people have that I have to watch in myself
49:49
too, where I'm always kind of in a bit of a hurry with the body slanted forward
49:53
and, you know, barking orders at people.
49:55
You've got a particularly whimsical environment, I feel.
49:59
Can you talk us through your emotional whimsical
50:02
Yeah,
50:02
yeah.
50:03
Whim.
50:03
That, it's one of my favorite words 'cause it's one of my favorite things.
50:06
Whims.
50:07
How do
50:07
Katja Mehlhorn: you find whimsical?
50:08
Rupert Isaacson: Whimsical is a mixture of beautiful with slightly
50:19
some elements of the fantastical.
50:23
And some elements of playful, joyful where you are doing something
50:34
for the pure pleasure of it.
50:36
Nice.
50:37
Rather than just for the usefulness of it.
50:40
Yeah.
50:41
When, yeah.
50:42
And usually there's some sort of natural, implication in there.
50:48
But yeah, talk us through your environment.
50:50
'cause I, I felt when I was there, there was a lot to learn actually
50:53
from just how your place is set up.
50:55
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.
50:56
I think nature, that's, that's totally essential.
50:59
And we live in the north of the Netherlands in the countryside, so
51:04
you would think nature is a thing.
51:05
But no, because the countryside here is basically just very flat,
51:12
high, high energy grass for the cows that have to produce, I don't
51:17
know how many liters of milk.
51:19
And so yeah, you have to put some work here to actually get more than
51:23
just flat grass with zero flowers.
51:25
So we have so we have some hills, we have trees.
51:29
We are lucky that this place actually had still all trees.
51:33
So part of where the horses are, that that's also just trees.
51:37
Yeah, we, we have, we have flowers in, in the field.
51:40
So what we do with the horses with the kids a lot, we ride in the field
51:44
with all the hills and we go on a safari, and then we spot hyenas and
51:48
tigers and which are of course just the sheep and the cows of the neighbors.
51:52
But it's good for your imagination to do some pretend play on the safari.
52:00
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about the flowers.
52:01
How do you use flowers?
52:02
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, so we, we have just herbs and yeah.
52:06
How do we use them?
52:07
I mean, you look at them sometimes.
52:09
Sometimes we we go and collect edible plants for the
52:12
horses or even for the kids.
52:14
Although I, I've got a bit more, more careful because I had this kid who
52:17
really liked what are they called?
52:19
The little, they called daisies.
52:21
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
52:21
The, the white ones of the yellow center.
52:23
Yeah.
52:23
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
52:24
Yeah.
52:24
And apparently he threw up when they got home and his mom thought it was because
52:28
of the daisies, which I kind of doubt, but
52:30
Rupert Isaacson: unlikely because they're known as one of the most edible flowers.
52:34
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
52:34
And I mean, he didn't add eat kilos of them, but, so I'm always
52:37
a little like, okay, we, we try, but we don't eat too much.
52:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
52:42
Doesn't sound like it was the daisies.
52:43
Yeah.
52:44
Yeah.
52:44
Because Daisy's a di dithers and Dithers is, and
52:47
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I, I think it just shows how scared
52:49
people are of nature right now.
52:50
Yes.
52:50
Like, oh my God, you get my, you let my kid eat stuff from you or garden
52:54
that, ooh, that must be why he got sick.
52:57
So, yeah.
52:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
52:58
Unlikely.
52:59
And I mean, kids get sick anyway.
53:01
Doesn't mean we shouldn't be careful, but Yeah.
53:03
Knowing one's, knowing one's environment, we do as, you know, tons of foraging.
53:06
Mm-hmm.
53:07
Because that's, that's actually how Horse Boy started was.
53:10
Mm-hmm.
53:11
I went without horses.
53:13
I, before there was horse boy, you know, I had gone for.
53:16
Mentorship to Dr.
53:17
Temple Grandin who said, follow your child.
53:20
Mm-hmm.
53:21
So I followed him into the woods and he just started eating stuff.
53:25
And now, you know, you know, I have this background with hunting and gathering
53:29
tribes, so I'm a reasonable forger.
53:32
But I didn't know that particular environment in central Texas,
53:35
but it wasn't difficult to quickly learn like the 10 most,
53:39
mm-hmm.
53:39
Common,
53:39
you know, edible plants.
53:40
But it, there were actually a lot of poisonous plants in Texas that
53:43
one had, and I couldn't explain to him the difference between edibility
53:48
at that point and, toxicity.
53:50
So I would say, let's go look for daddy leaves.
53:53
These are daddy leaves.
53:54
These ones, these are not daddy leaves, you know, and I'd mind like
53:57
falling over and throwing up and dying.
54:00
And he found that very funny, but to this day, he can feed himself off the forest.
54:03
It's really interesting and I always feel that that's such a
54:06
good skill to teach people because it's, it's actually security.
54:09
A couple of times in my life I've, you know, in my younger life I ended
54:13
up completely broke and could to some degree feed myself off the countryside,
54:18
you know, while living in a tent.
54:19
It's, but
54:20
Katja Mehlhorn: it, it seems to be kind of an inherent human thing.
54:25
Like we have, you probably saw our huge raspberry thing.
54:29
Yes.
54:29
So the kids just like, sometimes they never pick their own fruit and
54:34
they're also fascinated by, wow, wow, we can just like pick this and eat it.
54:38
And, and it's nice and
54:40
Rupert Isaacson: well because that's what it means to fundamentally be Yeah.
54:43
A human organism.
54:43
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
54:44
Rupert Isaacson: We, we, we are not.
54:46
Supposed to go to stores and buy food in plastic packages.
54:50
We are supposed to feed ourselves from the habitat that our monkey
54:55
species is supposed to live in.
54:57
Yeah.
54:58
I, I, I, I so agree that even the movements I feel of reaching to pick
55:06
that, those types of fine motor, you know, people spend ages trying
55:09
to teach a child fine motor skills.
55:11
Mm-hmm.
55:12
Yeah.
55:12
In a way that's not terribly motivating in a, you know, lab full of plastic stuff.
55:18
When you can, as you say, go to your raspberry patch and you've
55:20
got that gorgeous raspberry patch there and other berries and the
55:26
natural instincts are gonna kick in.
55:28
Mm-hmm.
55:28
And the fine motor skills will follow.
55:30
It's always astonishing to me that people don't explore these things more as, you
55:35
know, the standard therapeutic tools.
55:37
Also, you know, just the distance of walking.
55:40
Because I know that when the kids come to you, they're not always on the pony.
55:43
They can run around, they can explore.
55:45
So this is gonna create endorphins mm-hmm.
55:47
Which is going to calm the brain, which is going to make the brain,
55:49
you know, open for learning.
55:50
I know too that you've got an interesting bird reserve in part of your
55:55
mm-hmm.
55:56
Yeah.
55:56
Talk to us about that.
55:57
I found that really interesting when I, I came to you.
56:00
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
56:00
So the, the Netherlands is u used to be this big yeah.
56:04
What are they called in English?
56:05
Like birds of the field or something?
56:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
56:09
And, and, and sort of a bird migratory Yes.
56:12
Way thing.
56:12
Yeah.
56:12
Katja Mehlhorn: But, but because of the, the fields looking now, like
56:16
I just described earlier with like high performance grass and zero
56:20
flowers, which means zero insects.
56:23
Mm-hmm.
56:23
Those birds are declining like crazy.
56:26
Mm-hmm.
56:26
And so they have set up systems that you can get actually government funding if
56:32
you have an area that's bird friendly.
56:36
And the most bird friendly is also water on the land.
56:38
So we have a part where our land is just underwater.
56:42
Mm-hmm.
56:43
And then, yeah, it's amazing.
56:44
It's just, I think that area is like three hectare, whatever that is in acres.
56:50
I never know that's, it's,
56:51
Rupert Isaacson: that's big.
56:52
That's about 15 acres.
56:53
Yeah.
56:53
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.
56:54
Yeah.
56:54
But, but I mean, that's nothing like compared to all the fields around
56:58
us, which are just like that, that green golf course kind of stuff.
57:04
And still the birds find it and we have this Yeah.
57:07
Swarms of birds coming there and, and breeding there.
57:11
Rupert Isaacson: Do you take the kids, you know, out to look at that?
57:13
Do you, do you.
57:15
Educate them about the different bird species and how the ecosystem
57:19
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
57:20
Yeah.
57:20
So if we go for, for rides either on our safaris from the hills, you have
57:23
a really, really great few on, on the bird area, but we also have this
57:27
bike path going along our property.
57:29
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
57:30
Katja Mehlhorn: And normally those birds are really hard to, to to see
57:34
because they're kind of shy of people, but because they're used to being next
57:37
to the bike path at our place, you can just like be on the bike path and like
57:41
on the fence, post two meters from you.
57:43
There's this bird, rare bird sitting.
57:47
And can you
57:47
Rupert Isaacson: give us, I'm a, I'm a bit of a bird nerd.
57:50
Can you, I'm sure some of the people are, can you give us an example
57:53
of what some of the species are?
57:55
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, but not in English.
57:57
Rupert Isaacson: Let's, let's try and then we'll see if we can
57:59
Katja Mehlhorn: The theto is the most
58:02
Rupert Isaacson: uhto Can you do a quick Google translate on that one?
58:04
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I'll look, I think
58:10
that's the Dutch National bird or something.
58:11
Oh God.
58:12
We.
58:13
Rupert Isaacson: Godwits.
58:14
Oh
58:15
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.
58:16
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
58:16
So if you dunno what a godwit is, lads.
58:18
It's a really beautiful bird shorebird with a long beak.
58:22
And it's a black and white bird with quite long legs.
58:25
Very, very beautiful.
58:27
I know what a godwit is.
58:28
What else have you got?
58:30
Katja Mehlhorn: Thank G which is he?
58:32
Lapwing.
58:33
Rupert Isaacson: Lapwings, that thing.
58:34
Yeah.
58:35
When I was a boy in the East Midlands in England we used
58:39
to have clouds of lapwings.
58:43
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm.
58:43
Rupert Isaacson: Which is really,
58:44
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.
58:44
They're my favorite.
58:44
They're so pretty with a little white grounds.
58:47
Rupert Isaacson: And they have a, they're like a plover with a little curly Q
58:50
cresty thing on the back of the head.
58:53
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
58:53
Rupert Isaacson: Very elegant.
58:55
And yeah, there was a point where I remember all the lap
58:57
wings just kind of disappeared.
58:59
Mm-hmm.
59:00
And now they're like on the endangered, listen, but my boyhood, I remembered.
59:02
Yeah.
59:03
Clouds of thousands of them.
59:04
Yeah.
59:05
And it's so interesting how this kind of thing happens in our lifetimes.
59:08
Yeah.
59:08
Katja Mehlhorn: Shocking.
59:09
Also,
59:09
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
59:13
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
59:18
bit about the old master system.
59:20
of dressage training.
59:22
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
59:30
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
59:37
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
59:43
well being of the horse and the rider.
59:46
Intrigued?
59:47
Like to know more?
59:49
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
59:53
Check out the free introduction course.
59:56
Take it from there.
59:57
do you, what sort of education do you give to the kids around these birds?
1:00:03
Because that's a real metaphor for obviously the care for the planet,
1:00:08
you know, how's that integrated?
1:00:11
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I, I, I think that's a great idea.
1:00:13
I should do that more.
1:00:14
So usually they're like, oh yeah, birds, and then they wanna move
1:00:18
back to something interesting so that most kids don't seem to bear.
1:00:23
Sometimes some are interested, but most don't really seem to care about the birds.
1:00:27
But I should do that.
1:00:29
And I mean, of, obviously you can also do geography and whatever,
1:00:33
like looking up where they come from and where they going, they
1:00:35
Rupert Isaacson: travel and, yeah.
1:00:36
Yeah.
1:00:36
I mean, I, I guess a lot, so much of it depends on one's own level of enthusiasm.
1:00:40
I, I tend to get the kids.
1:00:42
Quite enthused about birds and wildlife.
1:00:45
'cause I get so enthused.
1:00:46
So when people see me jumping up and down, then okay, well that's
1:00:49
something to jump up and down about.
1:00:51
But I remember when we were working, you know, in Germany a
1:00:53
lot, we would have these incredible flights of cranes coming over
1:00:58
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.
1:00:58
Rupert Isaacson: Fall in the spring, but really like thousands of them.
1:01:02
And you'd hear them and then you'd look for them and then
1:01:05
you'd see these crazy formations.
1:01:08
But sometimes they'd also come over really low.
1:01:11
And all of the kids got really excited.
1:01:17
And as, yeah, as you say, then that became a way into talking about all
1:01:20
the little brown birds that were around and starting to observe in more detail.
1:01:25
And I was really often impressed by how often if you just gave a
1:01:29
child permission to be interested
1:01:32
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.
1:01:33
Rupert Isaacson: In something.
1:01:34
Because I think, I think a lot of kids.
1:01:38
Dismiss the natural world because their parental culture does like,
1:01:43
yeah.
1:01:44
Bugs are
1:01:44
disgusting.
1:01:45
Dirt is disgusting.
1:01:47
That's awful.
1:01:47
Dah dah, dah, dah.
1:01:48
And I've, I've noticed, I dunno if you've noticed this, but frequently
1:01:52
when kids come in to our program, they come with that language.
1:01:57
And then when they see you pick up a beetle or let a spider run over your
1:02:02
hand or, and talk about how cool it is, and we really get down and look at it.
1:02:06
Mm-hmm.
1:02:06
And then the next thing I know, they're pointing out the things to me.
1:02:10
Yeah.
1:02:10
And the next thing you know, they're delighted by it and exploring.
1:02:14
And it's like they've rediscovered their habitat.
1:02:17
Mm-hmm.
1:02:18
Do, have you been seen similar types of export?
1:02:22
Yes,
1:02:22
Katja Mehlhorn: certainly.
1:02:23
Like for, for example, we, we have apple trees and then they pick up the
1:02:26
apple and they throw it like it's hot.
1:02:29
Like, wow, what's happening?
1:02:29
Oh, there was like a little spot of dirt or, or, or an end on there.
1:02:34
And like, oh, but look, we just clean it off and, and you can still eat it.
1:02:39
And then sometimes there's like no way they're even go, going
1:02:42
to go near that apple again.
1:02:44
But sometimes you're like, oh, actually it's nice.
1:02:46
Or we feed it to doors and then at least the horse can enjoy it.
1:02:50
So yeah, you, you can certainly lower their threshold for
1:02:55
what they find disgusting.
1:02:57
I don't know if that's something you found, but I find a lot of
1:03:00
the autistic kids who come here also have a sensory thing with
1:03:03
touching things that might be dirty.
1:03:06
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:03:06
Katja Mehlhorn: Just touching the horse or touching a brush
1:03:10
can be, can be a challenge.
1:03:12
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
1:03:12
We, we found a really interesting way with that one, which was
1:03:17
having first kids wear gloves
1:03:19
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.
1:03:20
Rupert Isaacson: To touch things so that they felt safe and then we
1:03:24
next to them would be touching the same thing without the glove and.
1:03:30
Including it in the conversation, but without any pressure on
1:03:35
the kid to remove the glove.
1:03:38
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:03:38
But
1:03:39
Rupert Isaacson: what I've found is that in general, after a few weeks of that,
1:03:45
the kid starts doing it without the glove.
1:03:47
Mm-hmm.
1:03:47
And there was one really extreme example, as you say.
1:03:49
We had this really dirt phobic kid, and one of the things which we
1:03:53
did a lot in this particular place was mushroom foraging in the fall.
1:03:58
And it's great 'cause you take the kids out.
1:04:00
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:04:01
Rupert Isaacson: And in Germany it's, it's really a thing as you know.
1:04:03
And we'd have the kid on top as a spotter and we'd have a group of us around.
1:04:08
Yeah.
1:04:08
We'd have to spot mushrooms and then we'd run off to see if they
1:04:11
were one that we could pick or not.
1:04:13
Mm-hmm.
1:04:13
And if it wasn't one that we could pick, we'd also talk about why.
1:04:17
But in general, we could fill up a bag.
1:04:20
And we wouldn't ask them to eat that mushroom.
1:04:23
We would do them for ourselves, but we'd be very grateful to the
1:04:25
child, you know, for helping us.
1:04:27
But of course, in the process, they end up noticing all sorts of other things.
1:04:30
But the, this one kid then kept saying, how can you pick these mushrooms?
1:04:37
They're full of bugs.
1:04:39
'cause they, you would observe.
1:04:40
We'd pick it and there'd be like, stuff crawling on it.
1:04:42
Yeah.
1:04:43
Katja Mehlhorn: Like,
1:04:43
Rupert Isaacson: And then I said, well, you know, I used to be afraid, like you
1:04:48
even though I didn't and you know, I found that if I, but if I did it with
1:04:53
gloves, I, it wasn't a problem by then.
1:04:56
Of course, the kid that we were some weeks in was interested and at a certain
1:05:00
point he wanted to get off the horse with gloves on and pick the mushroom.
1:05:03
And then of course, he had a reaction when a, a bug crawled across the glove.
1:05:09
But I think I, it was, I noticed it was after about 10 weeks, he was
1:05:14
picking these mushrooms without.
1:05:16
The glove and, and I had forgotten.
1:05:18
And then I remembered, and then two weeks after that he was helping me plant trees.
1:05:23
Awesome.
1:05:23
And getting his hands like in the dirt and removing all the things of dirt with
1:05:28
his And, and you realize, oh, right, there's kind of a learning curve here.
1:05:33
Mm-hmm.
1:05:33
I guess is that neuroplasticity piece, right.
1:05:36
That the brain actually changes, but it's gonna change more
1:05:40
rapidly and more effectively with the aid of the natural habitat.
1:05:44
Mm-hmm.
1:05:45
Organism is supposed to be in.
1:05:47
Right.
1:05:48
Whereas if one is always working in say, an arena that's such a
1:05:51
sterile environment how can we
1:05:55
Katja Mehlhorn: actually, I've done the same thing with poo now.
1:05:59
A kid that was just like, oh, this is so disgusting.
1:06:01
And I had him, I went poo picking and I had him spot the poo for me.
1:06:06
So yeah, even in the arena, you, you have to be creative with what you had you
1:06:09
Rupert Isaacson: do.
1:06:10
And then he, you ended up showering in the poo and
1:06:12
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:06:13
No
1:06:13
Rupert Isaacson: canoeing and swimming in the
1:06:15
Katja Mehlhorn: poo.
1:06:16
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well Poo of course is really interesting
1:06:18
because it's a barometer of health.
1:06:20
Mm-hmm.
1:06:21
So I always point out the poo mm-hmm.
1:06:23
And say like, look at that poo.
1:06:24
Do you think that that's from a healthy animal or a non-healthy animal?
1:06:27
And if it's, and what I find is quite interesting is, is the kids
1:06:31
actually instinctively often know.
1:06:33
Katja Mehlhorn: I think
1:06:33
Rupert Isaacson: we all do.
1:06:34
Like if it's runny or something,
1:06:36
Katja Mehlhorn: or
1:06:36
Rupert Isaacson: if it's good firm British stools, such as we built
1:06:39
the empire with what you know, it is really interesting how simply drawing
1:06:44
attention to something like this.
1:06:45
Mm-hmm.
1:06:46
You know, and then of course from there you can get into gut health.
1:06:49
And from gut health you can get into brain health.
1:06:51
And then you can get into diet.
1:06:53
'cause as you know, a lot of these kids maybe don't have such great diets.
1:06:56
It, it's always seems to me that everything is a portal to something else.
1:07:00
Mm-hmm.
1:07:01
Yeah.
1:07:01
Yeah.
1:07:01
You've also got a lot of water around you.
1:07:03
Mm-hmm.
1:07:04
You're in the Netherlands and I know that you've got this beautiful,
1:07:06
you know, canal that runs by your old farmhouse through the fields.
1:07:10
Have you been able to use that at all?
1:07:15
Katja Mehlhorn: No, actually not.
1:07:17
So I remember when you were there, you're like, oh, you
1:07:19
should put like boats and stuff.
1:07:21
But here it's just so normal.
1:07:23
Like, yeah, of course there's water that no one even seems to care about the water.
1:07:29
But that's still on my bucket list to have to do something
1:07:32
more active with the water.
1:07:33
I mean, what we do with the, with the horses, we like if there's bottles or
1:07:38
stuff we, we go through or with some kids, sometimes also we have kids with some.
1:07:44
Motor issues that find it hard to walk, for example.
1:07:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:07:47
Mm-hmm.
1:07:48
And then
1:07:48
Katja Mehlhorn: just walking through the mud together and
1:07:50
first you hold their hands.
1:07:51
And I actually had a girl that was so afraid of walking through the
1:07:54
mud a couple of years and while ago she walked with the pony.
1:07:58
She got the pony out of the mud and was like, look at you.
1:08:00
You're doing this all by yourself.
1:08:02
Do you remember that?
1:08:03
You couldn't do it?
1:08:03
And she was like, really?
1:08:05
No.
1:08:05
I, I always could do this.
1:08:07
So
1:08:08
Rupert Isaacson: that's so interesting, isn't it?
1:08:09
The, the amnesia that
1:08:11
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:08:12
Rupert Isaacson: Kicks in once the skillset and the
1:08:15
brain has made that change.
1:08:17
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:08:17
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:08:18
That's my challenge for you then, is to use the water.
1:08:20
Yeah.
1:08:20
'cause when I look at those things, and I've actually done a little bit
1:08:22
of exploration here and there in the Netherlands on the waterways.
1:08:26
Mm-hmm.
1:08:26
And it's, it's such a radically different perspective.
1:08:30
Mm-hmm.
1:08:30
It is.
1:08:30
It's the
1:08:31
landscape from the point of view of the water.
1:08:33
And as you know, there's a lot of hidden wildlife
1:08:35
mm-hmm.
1:08:35
That you
1:08:36
only see if you're on the water.
1:08:38
Yeah.
1:08:38
Yeah.
1:08:39
That some of the water birds, some of the water mammals, that sort of thing,
1:08:42
they, they hide in those reed beds.
1:08:46
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
1:08:46
Rupert Isaacson: So when I come back, I, I think we should
1:08:48
Katja Mehlhorn: You wanna go in the water?
1:08:49
I
1:08:49
Rupert Isaacson: wanna go in the water.
1:08:50
Yeah.
1:08:51
And I was thinking there's two ways to do it.
1:08:53
Like, you could do like a wide flat bottomed barge thing where
1:08:56
there's room to move around.
1:08:58
Or one could do like canoes or double kayaks, or maybe,
1:09:03
depending on the cognitive level
1:09:05
Yeah.
1:09:05
Of, of the child.
1:09:07
But I, I, I could see it being rather delightful, whimsical.
1:09:10
There's that word to sort of.
1:09:12
Go to that dock by your house and then maybe canoe up to a point to
1:09:16
then mow the boat to then catch the horse that's in that mm-hmm.
1:09:20
Field and bring it back.
1:09:21
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:09:21
Switch at the windmill.
1:09:22
Yeah.
1:09:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:09:24
Oh yeah.
1:09:24
And you've also, you've got, that's right, you've got that windmill.
1:09:26
Yeah.
1:09:26
So talk to us about that.
1:09:29
It, it, it's, it's a real old historical proper job, you know?
1:09:34
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:09:35
Pumping the water kind of mill.
1:09:36
Very stories
1:09:37
Rupert Isaacson: type thing.
1:09:37
Yeah.
1:09:38
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:09:38
Rupert Isaacson: Is it still working?
1:09:39
And again, do you incorporate that a little bit into what you do
1:09:44
sort of with the environment and
1:09:47
Katja Mehlhorn: It's it's like not really used to pump the
1:09:51
water anymore because there is a.
1:09:54
Is that what
1:09:54
Rupert Isaacson: it was for?
1:09:55
It was a water pumping, yes, yes, yes.
1:09:56
Not a, not necessarily a grain?
1:09:58
Katja Mehlhorn: No, not at all.
1:09:59
No, just for the water.
1:10:00
Okay.
1:10:00
Rupert Isaacson: That I didn't know.
1:10:01
Okay.
1:10:01
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, because, so we have the canal, and then the land
1:10:04
often is lower than the canal, so they pump it like up levels in the
1:10:10
Netherlands, because if they stop pumping, the country will be flooded
1:10:12
and I don't know, very scarily quickly.
1:10:16
Okay.
1:10:16
So now that's all I don't know, diesel or something, but the wind,
1:10:20
the old windmills, some of them still exist for heritage thing.
1:10:24
And sometimes if it's really bad, they also still use them just on top of so it
1:10:29
turns at least once a week also, because they need to do that to keep it in shape.
1:10:33
Otherwise the the woodworms are going to eat it.
1:10:37
Rupert Isaacson: Do the kids find this interesting.
1:10:39
Do you, do you bring this into, because this is, this is a real thing about.
1:10:44
Sense of place right where they live, who they are mm-hmm.
1:10:47
In the Netherlands.
1:10:48
So do, do you incorporate those conversations about the
1:10:52
windmill into your explorations with on horseback on the land?
1:10:55
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, sometimes.
1:10:57
But, but again, windmill for them is such a normal thing that it's
1:11:00
like, yeah, the el windmill, we also have one next to our house will.
1:11:05
So, but some kids who can get more than, than with others.
1:11:10
But I, like me as a German, I'm always amazed still at
1:11:13
those typical Dutch features.
1:11:15
And then they look at me like, yeah, what's so exciting about windmill?
1:11:18
So,
1:11:19
Rupert Isaacson: well, of course these things are as exciting as
1:11:20
one makes them, like if one true makes an exciting story around them.
1:11:24
Yeah.
1:11:25
And when, again, back to the place we were at in Germany, we often served so
1:11:30
much kids from the local international school many of whom by the age of, I
1:11:36
don't know, eight, you know, they had.
1:11:39
Moved, say three or four times.
1:11:42
They might have come from the, their dad might have gotten some
1:11:47
corporate job, you know, in China.
1:11:49
And then they had gone from there to Ireland and then now
1:11:55
here they were, or, or America.
1:11:57
And now here they were in Germany.
1:11:59
And we often realized that they really didn't kind of
1:12:00
know where they were, you know?
1:12:02
Yeah.
1:12:03
They were in some sort of bubble of expat land.
1:12:07
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
1:12:08
Rupert Isaacson: Which was their TV shows, their school,
1:12:13
sometimes their expat friends.
1:12:15
And I realized, oh, you don't know really what Germany is.
1:12:23
Okay.
1:12:24
Yeah.
1:12:25
So let's find out what Germany is then.
1:12:26
Mm-hmm.
1:12:27
So we'd, I'd, I'd make sure that we had.
1:12:30
German food to eat.
1:12:31
And we would sprinkle German into the sessions and we would talk about why
1:12:37
the landscape looks like it does, and who were the Germans and where did
1:12:42
they come from, because they'd actually come in after the, that particular area
1:12:45
was Celtic before the Germans came in.
1:12:48
And why did the Germans came?
1:12:49
'cause the Romans had been there and then the Germans
1:12:50
came and chased the Romans out.
1:12:52
'cause they wanted this, who had chased the Celts out and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
1:12:55
And we found, and then of course you get into fairytales because that area
1:13:00
that we were in Hesen, that's where the brothers grim, did all their fairytales.
1:13:04
So we found that you could give people a real sense of place.
1:13:10
And then of course, that translated to people actually from the area
1:13:16
themselves who had been born there.
1:13:18
But again, as you know, so many kids these days, the, the, the, the, the experience
1:13:24
of the world is through a screen.
1:13:26
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:13:26
Rupert Isaacson: So.
1:13:28
They just, 'cause they're born in the Netherlands and there's a canal and an
1:13:32
and a windmill doesn't mean that they ever really see the canal of the That's true.
1:13:36
You know what I mean?
1:13:37
Yeah, yeah.
1:13:37
So I think your, your excitement about a canal and a windmill mm-hmm.
1:13:41
Would be quite infectious.
1:13:42
No.
1:13:42
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
1:13:43
Yeah.
1:13:44
Yeah.
1:13:44
So I guess I'm easier excited about animals.
1:13:47
So we do that actually quite a lot when we go riding outside,
1:13:50
there's like sheep and cows.
1:13:52
Mm-hmm.
1:13:53
So, so we interact with them.
1:13:55
Some kids are pretty good impersonators.
1:13:57
It's always a challenge who get the sheep to respond if you
1:14:00
call out to them in, in sheep.
1:14:03
So yeah.
1:14:04
That's probably also what you are Yeah.
1:14:07
Excited about and be able to communicate.
1:14:10
You're excited.
1:14:10
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:14:11
Exactly.
1:14:12
But I always have to challenge myself to get excited about things, which
1:14:14
I'm maybe not so excited about.
1:14:16
You must have this one, you know?
1:14:18
Oh,
1:14:19
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah.
1:14:19
And, and many
1:14:19
Rupert Isaacson: of the kids are like into Minecraft.
1:14:21
It's like, I'm not into Minecraft, you know?
1:14:24
It's like I will never be into Minecraft, but I have to pretend to be, you know?
1:14:29
Yeah.
1:14:30
And I have to find aspects of Minecraft to get excited about so that I can
1:14:35
have conversations about Minecraft.
1:14:36
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:14:37
' Rupert Isaacson: cause that's where the kid is at.
1:14:38
Right?
1:14:38
How, how do you deal with that?
1:14:40
Like Marvel characters, computer games, all of that stuff.
1:14:44
How do you use that?
1:14:48
Those interests of the kids.
1:14:50
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:14:50
So, so when I get a new kid, they have intake and I ask about their interests.
1:14:55
Mm-hmm.
1:14:56
And then sometimes interests that the parents say are not even the interested
1:14:59
that come back in the sessions.
1:15:01
But, but often, often they do.
1:15:03
And then, yeah, kind of depending on the cognitive level, ask the kids about it.
1:15:08
Like how, oh, I how was Formula One yesterday?
1:15:12
Or like, we played a Formula One car, or I had a boy who was inch
1:15:19
or boy, he was in his twenties, super interested in mapping wars.
1:15:24
I didn't know that was a thing.
1:15:25
Okay, so he, so you, there is a whole YouTube channels where they map wars so
1:15:30
you can, every day you see how the map changes depending on the development
1:15:35
Rupert Isaacson: of wars that are going on right now.
1:15:37
Or historic.
1:15:38
Oh,
1:15:38
Katja Mehlhorn: everything.
1:15:39
Everything.
1:15:39
So he had done a second World War day by day in the Middle
1:15:43
East or something like that.
1:15:45
Crazy.
1:15:46
Several year project, and then that's the way to, to get them talking because
1:15:51
he actually rather wrote in silence.
1:15:53
But yeah, when, once you started asking about that, he couldn't like,
1:15:57
help himself and got very excited.
1:15:59
Rupert Isaacson: And what did you want?
1:16:00
Like, for me, actually, honestly, the nerd in me is immediately
1:16:04
really excited by that.
1:16:05
Right.
1:16:06
I, I would find that totally interesting.
1:16:08
Yes.
1:16:08
But what, how did you, if that's not your area of excitement, how did you find
1:16:13
your way into that excitement so that you could, you know, help bring him out?
1:16:19
How did you, how did you, if not fake, you know, cultivate, let's say
1:16:23
enough excitement yourself around it.
1:16:25
I'm a
1:16:25
Katja Mehlhorn: curious person, so that's, that's good.
1:16:26
As a starting point.
1:16:27
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:16:28
Katja Mehlhorn: And as, as you say, if someone else is enthusiast about it,
1:16:30
it's kind of easy to, to get drawn into.
1:16:34
Yeah.
1:16:35
But yeah, you can of course also do research like before the next session,
1:16:38
I made sure to watch some of the, of the videos and learn a little bit
1:16:41
about it so that I had some questions prepared in case I needed them.
1:16:45
Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay.
1:16:46
Let's talk about that because you make that sound like, oh, of course.
1:16:50
I just, you know, watched some videos and I, I would posit that your average
1:16:55
equine assisted practitioner actually does not go and research the mm-hmm.
1:17:04
Interests of the person that they're going to serve.
1:17:08
And this is actually one of the,
1:17:12
it's not a pet peeve, it's just a limitation that I observe
1:17:15
frequently in the mindsets of equestrian minded people is that we
1:17:20
ourselves we're so horse focused.
1:17:23
We find the horse so fascinating with flabbergasted no space, not brain
1:17:27
Katja Mehlhorn: for anything else.
1:17:27
Yeah.
1:17:28
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:17:28
Other people find them boring.
1:17:29
But then we don't often transfer that to other things.
1:17:34
And when I'm doing say, horse boy trainings with young people who are
1:17:39
maybe going into the equine assisted field, and I'll say, what's the story?
1:17:44
What's the mythology?
1:17:46
What's, what's that tree over there of this place that we
1:17:50
are doing the training in?
1:17:51
And frequently I'll get a feedback saying, well, I'm not really interested in that.
1:17:53
And then I'll say, okay, well get interested.
1:17:58
'cause if you can't keep up a running commentary of interesting stories around
1:18:04
the place that you're in, how are you going to involve somebody in the place?
1:18:12
Mm-hmm.
1:18:13
And also, if you are asking a person to make a change, like become verbal.
1:18:19
Or accept numbers or reduce your anxiety.
1:18:23
I mean, that's a huge thing.
1:18:26
What are you the practitioner doing to challenge yourself
1:18:31
to make changes all the time?
1:18:33
What language are you learning?
1:18:35
Yeah.
1:18:35
What you know, or are you coming from this point of view of saying,
1:18:39
I don't need to change, I'm, you know, I'm the practitioner.
1:18:44
You know, you are the client, you need to change, and then,
1:18:46
then you've got no tools to Yeah.
1:18:48
And in
1:18:48
Katja Mehlhorn: therapy world as the concept of the wounded
1:18:51
healer, I'm sure, you know
1:18:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:18:52
Go on about that.
1:18:53
Katja Mehlhorn: But, but that's kind of the same idea, right?
1:18:55
So if you have gone through some thing yourself, some trauma
1:18:59
or you, you have wounds, yeah.
1:19:01
Then it is easier to, to relate, I guess to someone else who does that.
1:19:08
And if you healed, you can.
1:19:10
Yeah.
1:19:10
It's easier to relate to someone else having to heal and all that shit.
1:19:14
They will have to go through to, to get there.
1:19:17
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you as a matter of course, research the interests
1:19:21
of your, of the kids that come?
1:19:23
Yeah.
1:19:23
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, definitely.
1:19:25
Rupert Isaacson: Do you
1:19:25
find that you have a certain amount of people who help you on your team?
1:19:30
Mm-hmm.
1:19:31
Do they do that too, or do they do it 'cause you tell 'em to do it?
1:19:34
Or do they do it naturally?
1:19:35
Yeah.
1:19:37
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:19:37
But, but they're learning, so that's also a thing to, to develop.
1:19:41
And some people are more natural at this than others.
1:19:47
Mm-hmm.
1:19:47
But do you find
1:19:47
Rupert Isaacson: it something that you need to actually emphasize when you're
1:19:51
training people into your program?
1:19:53
Yes.
1:19:53
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:19:54
So, so often, like if you have new people, there's like,
1:19:56
you do, you have tips for me?
1:19:57
Like, we doing the session.
1:19:59
Well, what should I do?
1:20:01
Mm-hmm.
1:20:01
And I think my, my first tip is always like at the start, just hang
1:20:04
back and then try to relate to the client, like what they're doing.
1:20:09
So yeah.
1:20:10
Example, autistic boy is coming in and sees this new
1:20:14
person and is nervous about it.
1:20:16
So he goes and picks flowers, looks at the flowers, then yeah, just, just go
1:20:21
and also pick flowers and maybe you get slower, slowly closer to him and point out
1:20:26
this particularly nice flower you found.
1:20:28
And before you know it, you, you have kind of a way in with the cat
1:20:32
kid rather than standing there and waiting for them to come shake your
1:20:36
hand, which is not gonna happen.
1:20:38
Rupert Isaacson: Or plunking them on a horse
1:20:40
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:20:41
Rupert Isaacson: At the start of the session and, yeah.
1:20:43
Yeah.
1:20:43
Yeah.
1:20:43
And I like that you, you, you said your sessions are generally
1:20:46
about an hour and a half.
1:20:47
I I find that the concept of the hour long session, unless you already have Yes.
1:20:52
It's
1:20:52
short.
1:20:53
Yeah.
1:20:53
Yeah.
1:20:53
I mean, if you have a lot of good relationship already with that
1:20:56
person, you can do something in an hour, but often yeah, it takes
1:21:00
people quite a long time just to reintegrate into the new environment.
1:21:05
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
1:21:06
Rupert Isaacson: Even if they come quite regularly.
1:21:08
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:21:08
I find like half an hour to just arrive.
1:21:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:21:12
Katja Mehlhorn: And of course you might do stuff already, but after
1:21:15
half an hour or so, usually I'm like, okay, now, now you really are
1:21:18
here and, and we can start doing
1:21:21
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
1:21:22
Katja Mehlhorn: Real work.
1:21:24
Rupert Isaacson: Back, back to your own helpers when you're training them.
1:21:28
This curiosity piece of, of the research.
1:21:30
I I, I just want to stay on that for a couple more minutes because I do think
1:21:35
it's under, it's not looked at enough.
1:21:38
Will you, do you actually explicitly tell people, look, this
1:21:42
kid's interested in this thing.
1:21:44
Go on YouTube, go on Wikipedia and find out some things about this thing so that
1:21:50
you can talk to this kid about this thing.
1:21:53
Do you kind of guide them that?
1:21:54
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, sometimes depending on the kid, because I also have quite
1:21:58
some kids who really come because they're interested in the horses.
1:22:00
So then it's easy of course for the helpers.
1:22:03
Yeah.
1:22:04
But yeah, sometimes, and especially the boys, usually in my experience,
1:22:09
the girls who come mainly come here because of the horses.
1:22:13
Yeah.
1:22:13
And then the boys come because their parents are hopelessly overloaded
1:22:17
and try everything and nothing works.
1:22:19
And then they thought, let's try this horse thing.
1:22:21
And the horse is not the first thing that the boy cares about, but they, yeah.
1:22:27
If, if they stay, they usually also end up liking the horse part.
1:22:31
Rupert Isaacson: It's hard not to, even if the horse
1:22:32
Katja Mehlhorn: has to be a Formula One car.
1:22:33
Yeah,
1:22:34
Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
1:22:35
Have you seen some boys actually sort of transform, transform a little bit
1:22:40
into horseman through your program?
1:22:44
Katja Mehlhorn: Hmm, good question.
1:22:48
I haven't had boys that stayed that long term.
1:22:52
Like I have girls that I've been working with like for 10 years now.
1:22:56
Yeah.
1:22:57
Don't have, so the boys on average stop earlier.
1:23:01
Rupert Isaacson: I have a theory about why that is, but I
1:23:02
won't see if you agree with it.
1:23:04
I think that the way this isn't just in the equine assisted world, I think
1:23:09
this is in riding in general it's presented in the wrong way to boys.
1:23:14
It's usually presented in a way, in a very feminine based way.
1:23:20
And what I mean by that is the feminine mind when it comes to riding seems
1:23:27
to accept quite well from the get go, a certain very structured approach
1:23:32
and a certain attention to detail.
1:23:35
So the idea of sort of lessons.
1:23:37
Can be accepted quite early.
1:23:41
And I feel that with boys, I have to do a different approach because I've
1:23:46
had a lot of boys stay in my program, but what I do is I give them, just like
1:23:50
you're talking about with the Formula one experiences on horseback, which are fun
1:23:55
mm-hmm.
1:23:56
But require no knowledge of, or even control of the horse, but
1:24:05
we are doing something, we're gonna hit that thing or hit that
1:24:08
person from the horse or whatever.
1:24:09
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:24:10
I, that, that totally fits my experience.
1:24:12
Yeah.
1:24:12
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:24:13
And then yeah, boys,
1:24:14
Katja Mehlhorn: I have to put more effort into entertaining them.
1:24:16
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:24:17
Exactly.
1:24:18
But then if one does, then to get them to stick with the horses I find there's
1:24:25
got to be a big adrenaline component.
1:24:27
Mm-hmm.
1:24:28
Mm-hmm.
1:24:28
In general, I'm not, I mean, obviously there's boys who.
1:24:30
Don't fit that.
1:24:32
But so where I was lucky, you know, I grew up in this hunting, jumping, cross
1:24:37
country, amateur racing culture in the east of England, which it's really high
1:24:45
adrenaline, so a lot of boys stay with it.
1:24:48
And you look at cowboying which is also kind of really interesting,
1:24:53
multifaceted boys tend to stay in that down here in Spain.
1:24:58
I'd say the majority of the local boys in this area ride.
1:25:01
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
1:25:02
Rupert Isaacson: Because it's doma, Vara, they're working the cows.
1:25:06
They go hunting.
1:25:06
Yeah.
1:25:07
It's, it's, it's not just riding in a ring.
1:25:12
You know, and learning how to do a shoulder in, but then what I find
1:25:15
is that when they've had their adrenaline fix enough, then they kind
1:25:21
of want to learn how to do it better.
1:25:23
And then that's when you can say to them sort of somewhere around mid adolescence,
1:25:28
well, all that stuff that are boring stuff those girls have been doing
1:25:32
since they were seven years old, that actually is going to improve your game.
1:25:36
Yeah.
1:25:36
And at that point, they're like, oh, okay.
1:25:39
But it's really difficult within the sort of modern riding thing.
1:25:43
And then if you add to that, the peer pressure that boys go under
1:25:47
when they're at school to not ride.
1:25:49
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:25:49
' Rupert Isaacson: cause it's a girl thing.
1:25:51
Katja Mehlhorn: It's so,
1:25:52
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:25:52
It's
1:25:52
Katja Mehlhorn: something that we, we are on this bike path, right?
1:25:55
So our outdoor arena is right at this bike path that lots
1:25:59
of locals take to school and.
1:26:02
Almost every day, there is teenage boys who have to shout something to the
1:26:07
horses, like, horse riding is not sport.
1:26:09
Something about horses being eaten.
1:26:12
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, really?
1:26:13
Katja Mehlhorn: There must be such a fascination from the horses that they
1:26:16
feel drawn to do this every time.
1:26:18
Even we don't react.
1:26:19
I mean, they don't get anything out of it as far as I see, but they just,
1:26:24
yeah, there's always boys who have to do that much more than girls.
1:26:27
That
1:26:27
Rupert Isaacson: means that deep down, they actually want it.
1:26:29
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:26:29
That's my theory.
1:26:30
But obviously they would probably disagree if I say that.
1:26:33
Rupert Isaacson: No doubt.
1:26:34
But I, I just remember myself at school, like, all the negative peer
1:26:38
pressure I got because I was riding.
1:26:40
Mm-hmm.
1:26:41
Oh, you're a girl, you're gay, you're this, you're that.
1:26:44
And I had to withstand all of that including physical
1:26:47
fights sometimes around it.
1:26:49
And then I would find myself in a largely female world, which
1:26:55
in late childhood, early a.
1:27:00
This is not
1:27:01
much fun and deal with the exclusivity of, you know, c clique-ish adolescent girls.
1:27:09
Also giving me a lot of negative feedback for being the only boy.
1:27:11
Mm-hmm.
1:27:12
And I had to withstand both of those things in order to just
1:27:16
do the thing that I loved.
1:27:17
And if I hadn't been really motivated, like I was, I don't
1:27:21
think I would've stuck with it.
1:27:22
The, the peer pressure would've been too much.
1:27:24
And also the negative pressure from the girls wanting, not wanting to see boys.
1:27:29
Katja Mehlhorn: Is it also something about role models?
1:27:31
Rupert Isaacson: I think so.
1:27:33
So again, this is something I think can be really good with somebody like you is one
1:27:39
things I'm very grateful to grow, having grown up male is that I had all these
1:27:44
really strong female role models growing up because I did grow up around horses.
1:27:48
Therefore, there were all these strong female leaders because that's.
1:27:54
As we know, the horsey ladies have that leadership thing.
1:27:58
That meant that later in life when I was coming to the professional world, having
1:28:05
women bosses, having women colleagues, it was never a thing for me at all.
1:28:09
I was just like, well, of course, because I've just been surrounded by, I, I will
1:28:12
take absolutely orders from a woman because she knows what she's doing.
1:28:16
You Yeah, yeah, of course you're going to do that.
1:28:18
Whereas I saw other men struggle with that.
1:28:21
And at the same time, I was lucky I had some good male role models Yeah.
1:28:24
In that world who could,
1:28:28
you know, give me a bit of backup and reassurance when I was feeling bad from
1:28:34
either the rejection of the, of the girl clique or the rejection of the boy clique.
1:28:40
But we don't make it interesting for boys.
1:28:42
You know, the, so one of the things I find works really well
1:28:45
is doing the medieval games.
1:28:47
Have them work, the lance, have them work the sword, have a quintain,
1:28:50
you can j stat, that sort of thing, have something you can whack.
1:28:54
These types of things.
1:28:56
Then they can go back to their male friends and say, I hit people
1:29:00
on horseback with this thing.
1:29:02
Yeah.
1:29:02
Then suddenly it's cool.
1:29:04
But I do think that there is a deep seated, actually
1:29:06
longing for horses within boys.
1:29:08
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
1:29:09
I, I saw a book, it was a Facebook, so I would have to double check, but the,
1:29:14
a book about horse genetics that just came out and I don't remember the name.
1:29:18
Okay.
1:29:18
Like thousand years of something.
1:29:21
And they argued according to the Facebook post, so careful that there
1:29:27
was some genetic selection also in horses and human co evolvement.
1:29:36
I'm, I'm not sure exactly what.
1:29:38
How they stated it.
1:29:39
But basically, so they said there is a genetic component like that.
1:29:42
There are some people who just are really drawn to horses.
1:29:46
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just doing, I'm looking it up right now.
1:29:48
Gen genetic component for what?
1:29:51
Horse people?
1:29:53
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:29:54
That some people are just
1:29:55
Rupert Isaacson: look
1:29:56
Katja Mehlhorn: more into horses, but da should have written it down.
1:30:01
Rupert Isaacson: It's all there in the genes.
1:30:03
Horses, traits, inheritability, people in horses have, ooh,
1:30:11
hold on.
1:30:13
Well maybe I should put book.
1:30:14
You said it was a book?
1:30:15
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, it was a book by the genetics of horses in general.
1:30:19
So apparently there was some
1:30:20
Rupert Isaacson: genetics of horses,
1:30:21
Katja Mehlhorn: some mutation that
1:30:23
Rupert Isaacson: yes
1:30:24
Katja Mehlhorn: to the domestication or was related
1:30:26
to the domestication of horses.
1:30:29
Rupert Isaacson: I've got this thing.
1:30:30
I'm Googling of course.
1:30:33
The horse.com.
1:30:34
What a great name for a website.
1:30:35
Why didn't I think of that?
1:30:36
It's all in the genes, horse traits and her heritability.
1:30:39
Let's just have a quick look at this.
1:30:41
Ba ba scientists are continuing to uncover which genes are responsible
1:30:46
for certain traits in horses.
1:30:49
Okay?
1:30:50
Why are you drawn to a horse, a flashy coat color, a puppy dog personality,
1:30:55
smooth as molasses gates where your dream horse didn't come by these trades
1:30:58
by a happenstance, blah, blah, blah.
1:31:04
But this is more about what makes different horses
1:31:08
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:31:09
Rupert Isaacson: In their genetic I'm just intrigued by that because mm-hmm.
1:31:12
I think your point about the boys shouting insults as they go by means
1:31:19
that they're noticing the horse and they feel that they have to
1:31:22
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:31:23
Rupert Isaacson: React and respond in the same way that, you know, boys.
1:31:27
Might do that to girls, you know, and shout something, which means that they're
1:31:33
attracted to the girls because otherwise they wouldn't feel some desire to
1:31:38
Katja Mehlhorn: exactly say something,
1:31:39
Rupert Isaacson: even if it's not a helpful thing.
1:31:42
But I sort of agree with you that we've, we've got we've got
1:31:51
a heritage of what, 4,000 years minimum of domestication.
1:31:58
But before that we hunted horses a lot.
1:32:01
So we must have had a real draw.
1:32:05
Like if you go to the cave paintings, those 30,000 year old cave paintings
1:32:11
in southern France, like Chauvet and Lasko, or in northern Spain, Alta Alta
1:32:16
Mirror and those other ones, there's a real preponderance of horses painted.
1:32:22
On the wall and these people were hunting them, but they also seemed to have used
1:32:26
them very much in kind of magic and ritual because they seem to tra there's a lot
1:32:29
of transference of horse to human and that sort of thing in that shamanic way.
1:32:34
So if horses were like something that we really relied upon for hunting,
1:32:39
perhaps because they were large, perhaps because they could feed a
1:32:45
lot of, okay, wild cows, bison, yes.
1:32:47
But maybe bison are more dangerous to hunt.
1:32:49
I don't know.
1:32:50
I don't know.
1:32:51
But clearly we've been drawn to them an awful long time, long
1:32:53
before we started riding them.
1:32:55
Mm-hmm.
1:32:55
And so that, there must have been people who then became like the
1:32:58
horse hunters or the horse shaman.
1:33:02
And then you add then the riding cultures coming in.
1:33:06
Thousands of people, millions of people sweeping across the steps
1:33:10
into, from the yamaya to the, you know, the early bronze age to getting
1:33:15
up to the huns and the goths and.
1:33:18
You know, you, you look a bit goth to me.
1:33:20
You know?
1:33:20
You're there come, you're from that area in eastern, eastern Germany.
1:33:23
I've for sure got some of that goth blood in me.
1:33:26
How could we not?
1:33:28
And course the Netherlands, as you know, up until very recently, was a
1:33:31
very widespread equestrian culture just in terms of agriculture as well.
1:33:36
Mm-hmm.
1:33:37
Those kids who are cycling by surely carry a genetic.
1:33:42
Yeah.
1:33:43
I wonder, it makes me wonder what one could do to harness that.
1:33:55
Like, even if it's just a, even if it's just a conversation between you and the
1:33:58
client who's working with the horse as you're that, as that boy goes by, do you,
1:34:04
do you talk to your clients and say, why do you think that boy feels the need to.
1:34:10
React and respond to the horse.
1:34:11
Do you think he's secretly longing for the horse?
1:34:13
Like do you have that kind of conversation?
1:34:14
Yeah, think
1:34:14
Katja Mehlhorn: we certainly do.
1:34:15
Yeah.
1:34:15
Yeah.
1:34:16
So that, that indeed that, that, that was a conclusion that also
1:34:19
came out of those discussions.
1:34:20
Like, yeah, they probably secretly, they wanna actually be in here with us
1:34:27
Rupert Isaacson: and because that's, that's, that's such a portal to looking
1:34:30
at human behavior and ambiguity and ambivalence and how people say one
1:34:36
thing and mean another and Yeah.
1:34:38
Do, do, do those conversations then go from that point?
1:34:42
Katja Mehlhorn: Ah, so many of them I am Sometimes, yeah.
1:34:46
Yeah.
1:34:46
Sometimes it goes directly to the annoying big brother or, so there
1:34:51
is that which opens other, like, things that you can talk about,
1:35:00
Rupert Isaacson: genetic component for horse people.
1:35:01
Test results.
1:35:02
I'm, now, I'm getting a bit,
1:35:04
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I'll, I'll look up the book.
1:35:05
I'll send you the name once I find it.
1:35:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:35:10
Katja Mehlhorn: Because I always think like, as long as I can think
1:35:12
I love horses, even though I'm totally not from a horse family,
1:35:15
like, what, what is this thing?
1:35:18
And I live on my farm with my own horses and I go on vacation and
1:35:21
the first thing I do is look where are there horses that I can look?
1:35:24
I mean, how crazy is that?
1:35:28
So what, what makes that urge so big?
1:35:31
Yeah.
1:35:32
Rupert Isaacson: Your husband is not a horse person particularly, right?
1:35:34
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:35:34
Weird, right?
1:35:35
Rupert Isaacson: What does, but he's a brain person.
1:35:37
I know that we, we are gonna have him hopefully on the
1:35:40
live free, ride free podcast.
1:35:42
What does he make of your horse success?
1:35:45
Brain.
1:35:46
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.
1:35:47
Very interesting.
1:35:48
So I think he was the first one who really took it serious.
1:35:51
I remember one of our first dates, we were sitting in a cafe and I was kind
1:35:55
of rambling off about the horse I was working with at the moment, and he
1:35:59
just looked at me fascinated and he.
1:36:01
Wow, your eyes are sparkling.
1:36:03
You are shining when you talk about this horse.
1:36:06
Wow.
1:36:06
You really love horses.
1:36:07
And I thought like, wow.
1:36:09
No, like everyone always just like, was like, yeah, she's talking
1:36:12
about her horses again, blah.
1:36:14
And he just took it serious.
1:36:16
So that, that was really cool.
1:36:19
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:36:20
No note to all blokes out there on dates for Coursey girls react positively.
1:36:27
Yeah.
1:36:28
Does he, what does he make of it now?
1:36:29
That because, you know, he's had to make big lifestyle changes
1:36:32
and move out to the country.
1:36:33
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, yeah.
1:36:33
He lives on a farm for this.
1:36:35
Yeah.
1:36:36
I, I always secretly was kind of hoping that the, the virus would like.
1:36:41
Kick in on him, which hasn't, which I totally can't understand.
1:36:45
I mean, he, he, he's fine now with caring for them and getting, moving
1:36:49
them, and secretly he apparently also talks to them when I'm not there.
1:36:53
I heard, I
1:36:54
Rupert Isaacson: bet he does,
1:36:55
Katja Mehlhorn: but he just doesn't have to drive to really do something with them.
1:37:00
But he is, I think he's happy that, that I have that as, as a passion.
1:37:05
And does he runner?
1:37:06
So for him, running is his big passion.
1:37:08
So it's good if you both have your own thing, because otherwise I
1:37:11
think you get in this situation that the one gets jealous of the hobby.
1:37:16
Well, but yes.
1:37:17
Rupert Isaacson: Own
1:37:17
Katja Mehlhorn: hobby in my case of the Yeah.
1:37:20
Rupert Isaacson: I don't think we can say it's a hobby.
1:37:21
I think we can say it's a culture.
1:37:22
Yeah.
1:37:22
Yeah.
1:37:23
But yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting and I bet you your horses actually do
1:37:26
their own diplomatic charm offensive on him when you're not looking.
1:37:30
Because it's interesting.
1:37:32
He must find it also to some degree, peaceful and fulfilling
1:37:36
Katja Mehlhorn: mm-hmm.
1:37:36
Rupert Isaacson: To live this life on this farm.
1:37:39
And find his own place within it.
1:37:41
Yeah.
1:37:41
Yeah.
1:37:43
That in itself is probably worth picking apart at some later date in terms of
1:37:47
its therapeutic aspects, in terms of, you know, the pressures he might be
1:37:50
under at work and that sort of thing.
1:37:53
Maybe I'll, I'll talk to him about this and we do the podcast.
1:37:57
All right.
1:37:57
Finally, he's a good segue actually into your other world.
1:38:01
So you are still teaching at the university.
1:38:04
Mm-hmm.
1:38:04
And you teach ai or at least you teach about ai.
1:38:07
But as you said to me before we hit record on this, you help actually
1:38:13
students who are studying AI learn to actually old school styley, dinosaur
1:38:18
styley actually research so that they don't end up falling into the obvious,
1:38:24
you know, traps and rabbit holes.
1:38:26
That AI can do.
1:38:28
And we know that AI makes things up.
1:38:30
And my dad did a really funny experiment.
1:38:32
My dad's Zimbabwean.
1:38:34
Mm-hmm.
1:38:34
And the main tribe in Zimbabwe is the Shauna.
1:38:38
And so he challenged AI to chat GPT to give him an essay on the influence of
1:38:45
Chaa, the 14th century English writer Cho Jeffrey Chaa, who wrote the Canterbury
1:38:51
Tales on Ana medieval literature.
1:38:55
And it gave him this whole thing.
1:38:57
Well, there wasn't any macuna literature influenced by Chauser, that's for sure.
1:39:03
And it didn't matter.
1:39:04
Chat, GPT produced him a whole thesis.
1:39:07
Yep.
1:39:08
So how do you find that your horse practice in your equine
1:39:13
assisted practice and this academic helping people to still uncover.
1:39:20
As close to the truth as they can, you know, in research
1:39:24
there's an interplay there.
1:39:24
Talk to us about that.
1:39:26
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, that's funny.
1:39:27
Like often people hear that I'm doing those two things and they're
1:39:31
like, oh, that's so different.
1:39:32
They're like, yeah, but it's not really that different because in,
1:39:35
in both cases, I teach people and I kind of have to figure out what they
1:39:40
know and what they are interested in and, and take them from there.
1:39:43
And of course, the content you're teaching is largely different.
1:39:47
But the, the, the process of kind of tuning in on, on the
1:39:51
learner and then helping them grow is actually really similar.
1:39:58
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:40:00
I would also posit surely that when you are working with horses
1:40:06
professionally, you have to continually develop yourself, right?
1:40:10
Mm-hmm.
1:40:10
Like you said earlier okay.
1:40:13
At an earlier point in your life, you'd have rejected my whole dressy thing.
1:40:18
But then you get to a certain point where you realize, well, I'm actually
1:40:21
a bit limited with my horses, how I, I must now look for other things.
1:40:25
Mm-hmm.
1:40:26
Maybe rupert's dressy thing is actually worth looking at alongside,
1:40:29
you know, 20 other things.
1:40:30
I must keep expanding my practice.
1:40:33
I must keep expanding my did you notice a, an interplay yourself between
1:40:38
cultivating that kind of curiosity and research, having to help people do that?
1:40:45
Mm-hmm.
1:40:45
And
1:40:45
keeping your own equine assisted practice growing and not stagnating
1:40:51
rather than just saying, okay, I'll do my horse thing over here and I
1:40:54
do it like this, and that's how I do it, and I just die on that hill.
1:40:58
But over here I'm like the big curiosity person.
1:41:01
You know what I mean?
1:41:02
Yeah.
1:41:02
Katja Mehlhorn: So, so again, I, I am just a very curious person.
1:41:05
Yeah.
1:41:06
And, and that, that works for, with the clients, but that also works
1:41:09
for like with, with the horses.
1:41:11
Sometimes I find a bit annoying of myself.
1:41:13
Like whenever I learn something, my first thought is like, okay,
1:41:16
what else can you do with, with it?
1:41:17
Or, so, so I'm very bad at sticking to a system and just doing that.
1:41:21
I always wanna know more and secretly think I can do better, so
1:41:27
that, that, that helped definitely.
1:41:30
And, and I guess that is also what you need in science to, to be curious and
1:41:34
see, okay, what, what else is there?
1:41:35
Because yeah, we know a lot, but there's a lot more that we don't know.
1:41:39
So yeah.
1:41:40
How can we get there?
1:41:42
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, do you have any of your academic students come out to
1:41:45
the farm and work with the horses at all?
1:41:48
And if so, yeah.
1:41:50
How and why?
1:41:54
Katja Mehlhorn: That's been a while at the start.
1:41:56
Yeah.
1:41:58
Then it was more like, like colleagues, I guess when you're
1:42:02
younger, people are more into.
1:42:04
Experimenting with hobbies or so.
1:42:07
So
1:42:08
Rupert Isaacson: what were you, what was motivating the colleagues to come out and
1:42:12
check out your equine assisted practice?
1:42:14
They were coming as clients or they were coming just to kind of hang
1:42:17
with a horse and, and see what's this horse thing that captured us?
1:42:20
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:42:20
Yeah.
1:42:20
Both, both.
1:42:21
I would, I would say, yeah, but also just like to, to, to get lessons, for example.
1:42:27
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:42:27
Yeah.
1:42:28
Katja Mehlhorn: And now I'm actually teaching the kids of my colleagues more.
1:42:33
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:42:33
Well, there you go.
1:42:34
The, I'm just thinking in terms of the, the students, do you know,
1:42:37
have you met Amanda Menini, Dr.
1:42:39
Amanda Menini?
1:42:40
No.
1:42:40
She lives in Colorado.
1:42:41
She's obviously Italian.
1:42:43
And I work with her periodically.
1:42:47
She has a, she teaches at Colorado College in Colorado Springs, and
1:42:51
she has an equine assisted practice that's really there to help.
1:42:56
Address anxiety in the students.
1:42:59
Mm.
1:42:59
And she started this it's called Eagle but it's spelled a different acronym,
1:43:03
but I'll try to include it in the show notes or I'll get her on the show.
1:43:07
She has found it's been quite an invaluable thing.
1:43:11
Mm.
1:43:11
And she gets people to come out to the farm and helps with anxiety there, but
1:43:17
she also brings horses onto campus.
1:43:18
Hmm.
1:43:19
I'm just wondering if that's a sort of a, I'm, I'm planting that seed in you.
1:43:24
Yes.
1:43:24
Katja Mehlhorn: Interesting.
1:43:25
Because I, right now I would kind of almost see a bit of a conflict of
1:43:29
interest to kind of use my university connections to get clients for my farm.
1:43:34
Not that I need clients, but
1:43:35
Rupert Isaacson: well, you could do it pro bono.
1:43:36
You could do it.
1:43:37
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, you could do that
1:43:39
Rupert Isaacson: pro bono service.
1:43:39
Yeah.
1:43:40
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:43:41
Yeah.
1:43:41
But I actually, I, I'm gonna stop working for the university because the
1:43:44
farm is just outgrowing me otherwise.
1:43:47
Okay.
1:43:47
And I guess then then, then it's not a conflict of interest anymore to,
1:43:51
Rupert Isaacson: well, that, 'cause that just seems to me a,
1:43:53
a such a logical thing to do.
1:43:55
Yeah.
1:43:55
Because, you know, I think that new intake of students post COVID
1:43:59
mm-hmm.
1:44:00
Who
1:44:01
were like high school or middle school as well, COVID was going on.
1:44:06
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:44:06
Rupert Isaacson: Who were the most, the most impacted by COVID
1:44:09
seemed to have brought a fragility.
1:44:12
Mm-hmm.
1:44:13
You know?
1:44:13
Totally.
1:44:13
Yeah.
1:44:14
And I, I, I can't imagine that your farm.
1:44:18
Would not help with that.
1:44:20
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
1:44:21
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:44:21
Yeah.
1:44:21
Katja Mehlhorn: We, we are seeing, so I'm responsible for the, the first year
1:44:25
students at our program, university program, and we see a lot of, of mental
1:44:31
challenges and, and mental health issues.
1:44:34
Yeah.
1:44:34
That re reason has increased over the years.
1:44:38
Also challenges in kind of work ethic kind of, yeah.
1:44:43
Why should I go to lectures if I can study it at home with my own video?
1:44:47
Which of course then you don't do, because Yeah.
1:44:49
Yeah.
1:44:50
That's how we are as humans.
1:44:52
So yeah.
1:44:54
First year students need way more help with things outside of the
1:44:58
actual content of the program we are finding than, than they used to.
1:45:02
Yeah.
1:45:04
Rupert Isaacson: Be curious to see how you Yeah.
1:45:06
How you develop that.
1:45:07
Mm-hmm.
1:45:08
Have a feeling that you will yeah.
1:45:12
Always.
1:45:13
Curious in what Catcher Melhorn is up to.
1:45:15
So,
1:45:15
Katja Mehlhorn: yeah, me too.
1:45:16
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:45:19
Alright.
1:45:19
Well this has been a really great conversation.
1:45:22
I've really enjoyed, I think the, the, the, this, the theme that seems to run
1:45:29
through this for me is curiosity and the importance of staying curious on a really
1:45:35
active and, and deliberate level like ai.
1:45:40
Just, just the fact that you said, I think if, if there's one real good
1:45:45
takeaway from this conversation for someone in this feels is yeah, get
1:45:51
on YouTube and Wikipedia and go and research the interests of your client,
1:45:57
especially if you find that actually a bit boring because that's kind of our
1:46:04
job and you'd think that that would be.
1:46:08
Obvious, but it, it is actually a bit counterintuitive.
1:46:11
I, I, I love the fact that you brought this to our attention before we wrap up.
1:46:18
The first thing is how do people find you?
1:46:20
I'm sure people will be seeking mentorship from you.
1:46:24
And can they do that?
1:46:25
And then the second thing is just what's next?
1:46:27
Where do you want the program to go?
1:46:30
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:46:30
So people can find me on my website, which is just my name, Katya melhorn.nl.
1:46:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:46:37
Dot nl.
1:46:37
Yeah.
1:46:38
Katya with A-J-K-A-T-J-A.
1:46:40
And Melhorn.
1:46:41
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:46:41
Rupert Isaacson: MELH.
1:46:43
Katja Mehlhorn: M-E-H-L-H-L-M-E-H-H-O-R-N?
1:46:47
Yes.
1:46:48
M-E-H-M-E-H-L-M-E-H-L-H-O-N.
1:46:54
Rupert Isaacson: H-O-R-N-M-E-H-L-H-O-R-N?
1:46:58
Yes.
1:46:58
Okay.
1:46:58
QH as in there.
1:46:59
All right.
1:47:00
Yeah.
1:47:01
So NL.
1:47:03
Yes.
1:47:03
Okay.
1:47:04
Catch ton nl.
1:47:06
If people want to come check your program out email, you ask you questions,
1:47:10
get training from you, get mentorship from you, can they contact you there?
1:47:14
Katja Mehlhorn: Certainly.
1:47:14
Yeah.
1:47:14
Yeah.
1:47:15
Rupert Isaacson: I, I would recommend it.
1:47:17
Listeners, catcher runs a really, really, really good program.
1:47:20
You, you want to pick her?
1:47:23
Right?
1:47:23
And then just before we go, dream a little where, where do you want to
1:47:26
go with this and where do you want to see, where do you want to see
1:47:29
the, the equine assisted world go?
1:47:32
Katja Mehlhorn: Oh yeah.
1:47:33
Two, two good questions.
1:47:34
So the, the first one I am, that's really on my mind right now, like, where
1:47:38
do I wanna go with this, given that I'm gonna quit my well paying fixed
1:47:42
university job, which is kind of scary.
1:47:45
Must
1:47:45
Rupert Isaacson: be mad.
1:47:46
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah, I know.
1:47:47
It took me 10 years to bring up the courage, so I'm very, it feels really
1:47:51
relieving now that I took this.
1:47:53
Okay.
1:47:53
So, so I, it, I what I really would like to work here with a team of more people
1:47:59
because now I just work with volunteers and I just get so much energy from
1:48:03
working with others and also with clients.
1:48:06
You see that one client clicks better with the other person.
1:48:09
Person and you can really like working together.
1:48:13
Yeah.
1:48:13
You just get more out out of it, I think for the client and for yourself.
1:48:18
Some direction we've been thinking is to work with people
1:48:22
who can't go to high school.
1:48:24
Or to, to schools.
1:48:25
So there's a lot in the Netherlands, I don't know how that's in other countries.
1:48:29
Rupert Isaacson: School refuses.
1:48:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:48:30
Katja Mehlhorn: School refuses or, or at risk of mm-hmm.
1:48:33
Or they only go an hour per day.
1:48:35
And Yeah.
1:48:37
Ideally you wanna improve the schools that you don't need places
1:48:41
like this where they can come to.
1:48:42
So we are working on that with Henri and an parallel thing.
1:48:48
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:48:48
So listeners, that's Henrik Berkoff who was on Live free, ride Free, but
1:48:53
Kacha and Henrik, Henrik and Giddy Run an amazing horse boy and other general
1:48:59
therapeutic farm in central Germany.
1:49:02
And they with Katya have got a cross border interesting project going on.
1:49:07
And
1:49:07
Katja Mehlhorn: not just with the other Dutch shareholders.
1:49:09
By practitioners.
1:49:10
Yeah.
1:49:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:49:11
So we, we, we will be reporting on that.
1:49:14
Katja Mehlhorn: I'm curious how, how that, and
1:49:15
Rupert Isaacson: that's about actually improving the schools.
1:49:17
Katja Mehlhorn: Yes.
1:49:18
Yes.
1:49:18
Rupert Isaacson: In what way?
1:49:19
Like how.
1:49:21
Katja Mehlhorn: Well, making them so that we don't have all
1:49:24
those kids have to drop out.
1:49:26
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
1:49:27
But I mean, what, what's, what's sort of in the plan that
1:49:30
you've got to help that happen?
1:49:32
What are you drafting up?
1:49:33
Katja Mehlhorn: So the, the idea is to get the, the movement
1:49:35
method principles more in there.
1:49:37
So as we already said earlier, movement nature, following more the
1:49:42
interest of the child so that they can actually see the purpose of numbers.
1:49:46
Other than that the teacher tries to torture them and, and there's a
1:49:51
lot of those kind of things already going on in schools at some level.
1:49:55
I have the feeling, but it seems to stay kind of, yeah, this teacher
1:49:59
at this school is trying that, and then there's this program over here.
1:50:04
But yeah, it would be great to have it much more on a larger scale
1:50:09
Rupert Isaacson: movement.
1:50:11
Yeah.
1:50:11
Well, I'd be very grateful to you if you can not, if you can, as you knowing you
1:50:16
and Henrik, you're gonna get it going.
1:50:17
Yeah.
1:50:18
I'll be extremely grateful.
1:50:20
And, and then we'll have you back on the show, I think, to
1:50:22
talk about how that's going.
1:50:23
The equine assisted world in general.
1:50:26
Where would you like to see it go?
1:50:27
Yeah.
1:50:27
How would you like to see it develop?
1:50:29
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:50:29
There is so much right now also about equine welfare in the Netherlands.
1:50:35
There's this big discussion like our horses, or do we, should
1:50:38
we even still ride horses?
1:50:40
There's like some politicians who think we shouldn't.
1:50:42
Mm-hmm.
1:50:42
And I think that would be such a shame because I mean, we already touched
1:50:46
on this couple of times in this conversation that there's just this, yeah.
1:50:51
This spark, this magic, this, this something between humans and horses
1:50:55
that, that, that we can use for our welfare and our sanity in this crazy
1:51:03
digital, busy, stressful world.
1:51:07
That.
1:51:08
That.
1:51:09
So hopefully we, we move towards more equine welfare and also
1:51:15
towards more human welfare.
1:51:17
By, by, by pairing them up.
1:51:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:51:19
It seems to me that this idea of public license and, you know,
1:51:27
should we be doing it although it's good that we should always examine,
1:51:31
you know, what we do, At the same time, there's something in it that
1:51:33
saddens me because it seems to me about just yet another removal from nature.
1:51:40
Katja Mehlhorn: Mm-hmm.
1:51:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:51:41
You know, arm horses are nature.
1:51:44
Our interaction with them is nature.
1:51:47
Okay.
1:51:47
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:51:47
And the, the, it would be such a shame because I mean the, the people
1:51:51
that give it a bad image that.
1:51:54
That treat the horses as, as the sports tools for the money and
1:51:58
that maybe reject the or Yeah.
1:52:01
Don't take welfare as important as, as it could be.
1:52:04
They then damage it for everyone.
1:52:06
I mean, there's all those people who are trying to really do it in a
1:52:10
way that is nice for the horse and
1:52:12
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
1:52:13
Katja Mehlhorn: The horse can do it.
1:52:14
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
1:52:14
I agree.
1:52:15
It's I think it's a necessary conversation, but I hope that it
1:52:19
doesn't swing to an extreme that ends up
1:52:22
mm-hmm.
1:52:23
Harming both horses and humans.
1:52:26
Because horses are a domestic species and, you know, the next thing we'll
1:52:30
say, well, should we own dogs?
1:52:31
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:52:32
Rupert Isaacson: And, you know, and then
1:52:33
Katja Mehlhorn: it, how about that?
1:52:35
Rupert Isaacson: And if, if, if the answer to that is also No and all of that, then.
1:52:39
What interactions with nature are we allowed to have,
1:52:42
particularly for urban populations.
1:52:44
Katja Mehlhorn: And I mean, just going back to the example with
1:52:46
the apples, if you don't know what a natural apple looks like, you
1:52:49
won't like care about the apples.
1:52:51
So if you never interact with an animal, you won't care for them or protect them.
1:52:56
So yeah, you, you have to, I wonder if, I wonder
1:53:00
Rupert Isaacson: if, you know, you, you, you, you were talking about this lady in
1:53:03
Virginia Brook Hill Farm, and I actually work in a very similar place in Chicago
1:53:08
quite often called Triple H Ranch.
1:53:10
Really good places where they do exactly the same thing.
1:53:12
They, they take rescue horses and my God, are some of these horses
1:53:17
in a bad way when they come in?
1:53:19
Like, I hadn't seen horses that emaciated since, like living in, I
1:53:24
used to live in India for a while and I saw, you know, horses that were
1:53:27
living on the street and that sort of thing, you know, terrible conditions.
1:53:30
You think in America it's.
1:53:32
Quite difficult to get a horse in that condition.
1:53:34
'cause there's like grass growing everywhere.
1:53:35
You know, you've actually gotta try quite hard.
1:53:37
Yeah.
1:53:38
If you don't like the horse, you can always just open the gate and let it
1:53:40
out and it'll find grazing somewhere.
1:53:42
Someone will pick it up.
1:53:43
Right.
1:53:44
In the same way that people dump dogs, people do dump horses that way.
1:53:46
So to, to get a horse to that level of starvation is like how but nonetheless,
1:53:52
I saw horses coming in like that and then her saw her rehab them and her
1:53:56
client base being the rehabers as exactly as you said, maybe we need to
1:54:03
somehow have more of an emphasis on this in our equine assisted programs.
1:54:07
And I am hoping to, we're doing a lot of outreach at the moment to the sport world.
1:54:12
Ireland is a really good mover and shaker in this horse sport island.
1:54:17
Mm-hmm.
1:54:17
Which governs everything from racing to.
1:54:20
Show jumping to equine assisted realized quite recently that the,
1:54:25
it's really the only sector of the horse industry that's growing.
1:54:27
Hmm.
1:54:29
Equine.
1:54:30
Yeah.
1:54:30
And we are the only ones who actually can really make a
1:54:35
point of rehabbing and rescue.
1:54:38
And we of course take over the wastage from the sport world, but
1:54:43
the sport world doesn't have to operate in a way that wastes horses.
1:54:46
That's just something that's evolved.
1:54:48
Yeah.
1:54:48
Because of a poor economic model.
1:54:51
You know, could we, the equine assisted practitioners be the ones leading
1:54:57
the way to better practices at the beginning of the sport process so that
1:55:03
horses get injured less, you know, have more training in them to look
1:55:09
after their balance and their bodies.
1:55:12
Emotionally, and then also when they move on from the sport career to then move
1:55:17
more seamlessly into the next career.
1:55:20
I do believe that's possible, and I do believe that we are the ones with
1:55:22
the technology for that, you know?
1:55:25
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:55:25
Rupert Isaacson: So maybe we should be seeing a bit of that at your farm
1:55:29
to see who from the racing industry, who from the dressage industry, who
1:55:34
from the jumping industry can we pair up with and partner up with.
1:55:38
Mm-hmm.
1:55:38
Whether it's aftercare
1:55:40
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:55:40
Or
1:55:40
Rupert Isaacson: pre-care.
1:55:41
Yeah.
1:55:42
Katja Mehlhorn: I, I think a good point.
1:55:44
You're, you are touching.
1:55:44
There also is visibility like
1:55:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:55:48
Katja Mehlhorn: What I said, like, now people, at least in the Netherlands, they
1:55:50
see like the examples of the dressage horses with the blue tongue and the,
1:55:54
and the, and the blood on their mouth.
1:55:56
While all this, I mean, all of us who work in equine assisted, we know
1:56:02
that cool stuff that's happening.
1:56:04
So I think that needs to be more visible.
1:56:06
Yeah.
1:56:07
Who is better than the people who already love horses and do sport
1:56:11
with them to, to get it visible to
1:56:14
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
1:56:14
Katja Mehlhorn: And, and, and get involved.
1:56:15
I
1:56:16
Rupert Isaacson: agree.
1:56:16
I also feel that most sport horses honestly would love to have a
1:56:21
double career, a parallel career doing the equine assisted stuff.
1:56:25
'cause that's what my horses do.
1:56:26
Like as you know, my horses, they're dressage horses, they're
1:56:28
jumping horses, they trail horses.
1:56:31
They do it all, but they also do the therapy work.
1:56:33
Mm-hmm.
1:56:33
They're just like humans.
1:56:34
They love to have variety in their work.
1:56:35
Yeah.
1:56:35
And they like to do more than one thing.
1:56:39
It would be very interesting to see, could we, could we find some
1:56:42
Dutch high level rider who's willing to bring their multimillion dollar
1:56:48
horse into the therapy thing?
1:56:51
Yeah.
1:56:51
As a bit of a flagship.
1:56:52
You know what I mean?
1:56:53
That might be an interesting project.
1:56:54
Things like that.
1:56:55
Yeah.
1:56:55
Like can we identify that individual?
1:56:57
Katja Mehlhorn: Yeah.
1:56:59
Rupert Isaacson: I think I just set myself a challenge there.
1:57:00
Katja Mehlhorn: Nice.
1:57:01
Yeah.
1:57:01
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:57:02
Alright, well I guess that's what we are gonna do next year.
1:57:04
All right, fine.
1:57:04
Katja Mehlhorn: Cool.
1:57:07
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.
1:57:07
Well thank you so much Katya, for all of this.
1:57:11
Thank you.
1:57:12
And for the work you do.
1:57:13
And I guess we'll see you soon over on Live Free Ride free
1:57:16
to talk about AI in the brain.
1:57:18
Katja Mehlhorn: All right.
1:57:21
Rupert Isaacson: All right then.
1:57:22
Until next time,
1:57:23
Katja Mehlhorn: thank you so much.
1:57:24
Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.
1:57:25
Thank you.
1:57:26
Katja Mehlhorn: Bye-bye.
1:57:26
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