Latest / Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast / Willson Contreras suspended, what's next for Andre Pallante?

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Willson Contreras suspended, what's next for Andre Pallante? · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

0:03
Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, August twenty seventh. The Cardinals and the Pirates
0:06
Speaker 1: are halfway through their four game series at Bus Stadium.
0:09
Speaker 1: They have both split one win, one loss so far.
0:13
Speaker 1: I'm Katie. It's Bernie Michless. Welcome back to Cardinals territory.
0:16
Speaker 2: Bernie. How are you.
0:17
Speaker 1: It's been a strange, eventful, chaotic week so far and
0:20
Speaker 1: it's only Wednesday.
0:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Cardinals. Sometimes the play on the field can
0:24
Speaker 3: be dull, but you know, sometimes things get a little nuts.
0:28
Speaker 3: So we've gotten a little bit of both this week.
0:31
Speaker 3: But I know the Concherish thing, Wilson Concairast thing, has
0:35
Speaker 3: been the newsiest event that happened this week.
0:39
Speaker 1: Certainly Newsy for those of you who missed it. I'm
0:42
Speaker 1: not sure how. Wilson Cantererras was suspended six games with
0:45
Speaker 1: an underclosed fine Major League Baseball announced Tuesday for his
0:49
Speaker 1: actions in a heated altercation with homeplate umpire Derek Thomas
0:54
Speaker 1: in Monday's seven to six walk off win for the Cardinals.
0:58
Speaker 1: To recap it, Wilson Contreras took strike three, called strike three,
1:03
Speaker 1: and the bottom of the seventh said said something as
1:06
Speaker 1: he was walking away. Derek Thomas thought he heard one
1:08
Speaker 1: thing contrarass that he said. The other chaos ensued, mayhem everywhere.
1:14
Speaker 1: Ollie Marble, Daniel Discasso have to hold Contreras back. Contreras
1:18
Speaker 1: loses it on Derek Thomas makes contact with him, whether
1:21
Speaker 1: that's intentional or not. As he's been ushered back to
1:25
Speaker 1: the dugout, he throws his bat back towards the field
1:27
Speaker 1: of play, actually ends up hitting coach Bran Brown in
1:31
Speaker 1: the arm, and then of course we all saw the
1:32
Speaker 1: bucket of high choose being launched from the dugout. It
1:35
Speaker 1: was an ugly scene. And this all stems from the
1:38
Speaker 1: ejection in which Contreras said, I wasn't arguing that it
1:41
Speaker 1: was a strike three.
1:42
Speaker 2: It was a good pitch. It was strike three. He
1:44
Speaker 2: just said.
1:44
Speaker 1: All I said was call it both ways, because you're
1:46
Speaker 1: not calling it for both teams right now. Derek Thomas
1:48
Speaker 1: thought he heard something completely different, talked to crew chief
1:51
Speaker 1: Jordan Baker after that and basically said both Contreras and
1:56
Speaker 1: Ollie Marble were ejected for vulgar language towards an umpire
1:59
Speaker 1: at the mansion, which, again the MLB announced Tuesday, absolutely
2:03
Speaker 1: has everything to do with Contreras making contact with the
2:06
Speaker 1: umpire and then throwing the bat.
2:07
Speaker 2: You just can't do that.
2:09
Speaker 1: So he will appeal that suspension of the Cardinals will
2:11
Speaker 1: be permitted to play him during that appeal process.
2:15
Speaker 2: But I didn't love it.
2:16
Speaker 1: I didn't think it was a great scene for Contreras
2:18
Speaker 1: or the Cardinals on Monday Night.
2:20
Speaker 3: No same here, Listen. I really like Wilson Contreras a lot.
2:24
Speaker 3: I also understand why the one of the reasons why
2:27
Speaker 3: the Cardinals signed him. I talked to Ali Marvel about
2:31
Speaker 3: this the other day. You know, they obviously wanted his bat.
2:33
Speaker 3: In fact, since he's been a Cardinal, Katie, this is
2:38
Speaker 3: his third season. As you know, he he basically is
2:42
Speaker 3: a top ten hitter among right handed hitters in the
2:45
Speaker 3: major leagues that have enough at bats to qualify. I mean,
2:49
Speaker 3: he's a top ten right handed hitter in the entire
2:51
Speaker 3: entire majors. They wanted his bat, like the Oli Marmel explained.
2:55
Speaker 3: You know, we also, he said, we thought that our club,
2:58
Speaker 3: after twenty twenty two, you know, some hour pools leaving Molina, leaving,
3:05
Speaker 3: you know, retiring, that they needed some edge in their clubhouse.
3:10
Speaker 3: They wanted some intensity. They wanted someone that basically has
3:17
Speaker 3: the Wilson contrast personality. That's one of the things that
3:19
Speaker 3: appealed to them, and Ali Marma loves the guy. But
3:24
Speaker 3: I go back to that because I remember why they
3:27
Speaker 3: signed him. I mean, they didn't sign him to because
3:29
Speaker 3: he was a great defensive catcher. He's a hard nosed guy,
3:33
Speaker 3: and he is a terrific hitter. But he's also volatile
3:39
Speaker 3: in his emotions boil over sometimes and there's always a
3:45
Speaker 3: risk of something like this happening. But it was his
3:48
Speaker 3: ninth dejection in his career. There's only two active Major
3:50
Speaker 3: leaguers who have more, Bryce Harper and Manny Machado. And
3:55
Speaker 3: so when you sign cherists, this is what you get.
3:59
Speaker 3: I love his intense city, I love his hard edge.
4:02
Speaker 3: I love that, to use the James Brown song title,
4:05
Speaker 3: I I I love the fact that Papa don't take
4:07
Speaker 3: no mess. But he went too far the other night
4:13
Speaker 3: he went He just went too far. I mean that
4:15
Speaker 3: that was just bad, bad form. And the worst part
4:19
Speaker 3: of it was, uh, you know, flinging the bat and
4:22
Speaker 3: striking brand Brown. I mean he was very lucky nobody
4:24
Speaker 3: got hurt. Look, look, we've seen we we've all seen play.
4:28
Speaker 3: You know, players who are angry, cursed umpires, rush umpires,
4:33
Speaker 3: make body contact with umpires. We that's happened a million times.
4:37
Speaker 3: That in itself is no big deal. It's a little unpleasant,
4:40
Speaker 3: but it's no big deal. But when you're when you're
4:43
Speaker 3: flinging a bat and you're doing it irresponsibly and recklessly
4:47
Speaker 3: and it's tricks one of your teammates, a coach, that's
4:50
Speaker 3: where I have to say, as a contraras fan, that's
4:53
Speaker 3: where I have to say, Okay, throw the penalty flag.
4:56
Speaker 3: I'm using football now, throw the unsportsmanlike condo flag because
5:00
Speaker 3: that was a bit too much.
5:02
Speaker 1: I agree, And it obviously wasn't intentional when he threw
5:05
Speaker 1: the he shouldn't have done it. Okay, I'll preface with that.
5:08
Speaker 1: But he inadvertently hits Brent Brown, he said, he apologized.
5:11
Speaker 1: I get it shouldn't have happened, and that's why I
5:14
Speaker 1: think the suspension is so lengthy non ped suspensions, this
5:18
Speaker 1: is the second longest suspension for a player this season.
5:20
Speaker 1: The first Cardinals player to be suspended this season. The
5:23
Speaker 1: only longer non ped suspension was Victor Robust, who got
5:26
Speaker 1: ten games for deliberately throwing a bat at a picture
5:29
Speaker 1: in a minor league game and.
5:30
Speaker 2: Then charging the mound.
5:32
Speaker 1: So I understood why this suspension was the length that
5:35
Speaker 1: it was. I will say the way that it was
5:36
Speaker 1: handled post game. I'll go back to what you said
5:39
Speaker 1: about Ali Marmal, because I think you're right. Wilson Contreras
5:42
Speaker 1: is a very passionate, fiery competitor. He brings a competitive
5:45
Speaker 1: edge to this Cardinals club that was missing, and I
5:48
Speaker 1: think he is again very passionate about Cardinals fans this organization.
5:53
Speaker 1: Sometimes that does boil over to a point where it shouldn't.
5:56
Speaker 2: Like on Monday.
5:58
Speaker 1: But to see him come in the clubhouse and the
6:00
Speaker 1: first thing that he did was shout Ali's name and
6:03
Speaker 1: go find him. He wanted to talk to his manager
6:05
Speaker 1: and sit in the clubhouse and calm down before he
6:07
Speaker 1: talked to us. That shows a lot of trust. It
6:10
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do, because when Contreras's was ready,
6:12
Speaker 1: he went to his locker, he sat down, and he
6:14
Speaker 1: waited for us to come up to him, and he
6:16
Speaker 1: answered every question honestly, calmly. Reflect on things that he said,
6:20
Speaker 1: reflect on things that he did and shouldn't have done,
6:23
Speaker 1: and it could have been a lot uglier in that case,
6:26
Speaker 1: because when players are running hot and your emotions are high,
6:28
Speaker 1: you just got suspended, you know you're gonna be up
6:30
Speaker 1: in the news. It's natural to just kind of short
6:32
Speaker 1: circuit a little bit. But the fact that he sought
6:34
Speaker 1: out his manager took some time to calm down and
6:36
Speaker 1: then was a pro at least in that moment asking
6:38
Speaker 1: the questions. And then of course on Tuesday, Derek Thomas
6:41
Speaker 1: is the first base umpire because of course he is conturist,
6:43
Speaker 1: goes up to shakes his hand and says, you know.
6:45
Speaker 2: Hey, it's a new day.
6:46
Speaker 1: Like I think we can put it behind us, the
6:50
Speaker 1: actual actions on Monday, but the suspension for six games,
6:53
Speaker 1: that's going to be a big blow for a team
6:55
Speaker 1: that needs controrists, that needs him offensively. I'm not sure
6:59
Speaker 1: when he when that appeal appeal process will go through
7:02
Speaker 1: or not if the Cardinals are lucky September first, because
7:05
Speaker 1: rosters expand that day so they don't have to technically
7:07
Speaker 1: play a man short. But yeah, all around, I did
7:11
Speaker 1: not love what happened Monday. I thought it was handled
7:13
Speaker 1: very well post game by Allie Marlon and Wilson Contraras
7:15
Speaker 1: in terms of what they said to us and the
7:17
Speaker 1: communication there. But I'm with MLB here. I think six
7:20
Speaker 1: games solely for throwing the bat, whether he meant it
7:24
Speaker 1: or not, it did make contact with the coach.
7:25
Speaker 2: That's scary. That can't happen. So I think this is
7:28
Speaker 2: a fair sussension.
7:29
Speaker 3: I'll say this too, you know, because someone up. In fact,
7:33
Speaker 3: I'm surprised doing cardinal terry. To excuse me, I'll learn
7:37
Speaker 3: how to speak. That'll help doing cardinal territory with you.
7:40
Speaker 3: I'm surprised I haven't said anything like a really nasty word,
7:45
Speaker 3: because when I'm just sort of talking and having fun
7:47
Speaker 3: and you know, yucking it up, I let the words fly.
7:50
Speaker 3: You know, it's a bad habit of mine, one of many.
7:52
Speaker 3: But I have to say, you know, based on the
7:53
Speaker 3: Pittsburgh audio they were able to pick up at their
7:56
Speaker 3: game broadcasts the stuff that he out towards Derek Thomas.
8:02
Speaker 3: Once again, it's it's bad language, it's awful language. But
8:08
Speaker 3: this is nothing new. This this happens all the time.
8:12
Speaker 3: I mean, players let those words fly all the time.
8:17
Speaker 3: And I'm not blaming Derek Thomas at all for doing
8:20
Speaker 3: what he felt he had to do because a lot
8:22
Speaker 3: of times it's it's not the word, it's the way
8:25
Speaker 3: you say the word, or it's the way you use
8:27
Speaker 3: the term. So yeah, I mean, but Contreras, as you know,
8:33
Speaker 3: is like sticking to his story. He didn't feel like
8:35
Speaker 3: he said anything inappropriate or out of bounds. So I
8:40
Speaker 3: don't know. I do know this. And this is another
8:42
Speaker 3: thing Ali Marble was talking about. Let's both let's both
8:44
Speaker 3: of us go back to twenty twenty three. His teammates,
8:48
Speaker 3: A couple of a few of his teammates did him dirty.
8:51
Speaker 3: I mean, he wasn't a Cardinal very long, and he
8:55
Speaker 3: was in spring training working hard with the pictures, other
8:59
Speaker 3: pictures left to go to the World Baseball Classic, and
9:04
Speaker 3: you know, the rotation, as you know, got off to
9:05
Speaker 3: a terrible start that year. And all of a sudden,
9:08
Speaker 3: they're throwing Contraras under the bus and then and then
9:12
Speaker 3: putting it in reverse and running over him again. I thought,
9:15
Speaker 3: I thought they did him dirty. And and and the
9:19
Speaker 3: one the thing that I'll always admire him, even with
9:22
Speaker 3: him making this mistake, I'll always admire him. And frankly,
9:25
Speaker 3: I don't understand why there's a segment of Cardinals fans
9:28
Speaker 3: who they don't seem like they like him at all.
9:33
Speaker 3: I mean, I've seen it, like when you write about
9:35
Speaker 3: him stuff under the in the comment sector. I don't
9:37
Speaker 3: get it. But anyway, he handled that with amazing grace
9:42
Speaker 3: that after they did him wrong, he was humble, He
9:45
Speaker 3: was quiet, He was you know, cooperative. He just talking about, oh,
9:48
Speaker 3: I can't wait to work with these guys. I'm here,
9:52
Speaker 3: you know. And the thing about you know, Olly said,
9:54
Speaker 3: and this is true, i Olly's never lied to me
9:57
Speaker 3: about anything, but he said the thing about Wilson. You
10:00
Speaker 3: see the stuff on the field, you see him burning
10:02
Speaker 3: with passion, but in the clubhouse he's like the most humble,
10:06
Speaker 3: quiet guy. You know. He doesn't bother anybody. Anybody can
10:12
Speaker 3: approach him. He loves to talk to his teammates. So
10:15
Speaker 3: I just chalk it up as a bad episode, and
10:19
Speaker 3: my respect for Wilson Cantreras didn't change at all, because
10:23
Speaker 3: if that's the worst thing he ever does in his career,
10:26
Speaker 3: you'd rather not see it happen. But it's just not
10:29
Speaker 3: a big deal, except for, as you pointed out, he's
10:33
Speaker 3: not going to be able to swing the bat for
10:34
Speaker 3: six games or play first base for six games. So
10:38
Speaker 3: and I thought that you know, maybe you know who knows,
10:40
Speaker 3: maybe he did this privately. Maybe he'll he'll convey to
10:43
Speaker 3: his teammates that he apologizes for his actions that left
10:48
Speaker 3: them shorthanded for this amount of games he's going to miss.
10:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're spot on there, Bernie.
10:53
Speaker 1: Look, I think Contreras has been a good Cardinal in
10:56
Speaker 1: his tenure. He's had to deal with a lot of
10:58
Speaker 1: things that were not fair, especially in twenty three. As
11:00
Speaker 1: you correctly pointed out, he's warned the criticism, he has
11:04
Speaker 1: warned being thrown under the bus by his teammates.
11:06
Speaker 2: He had a bad day.
11:07
Speaker 1: That's all right, we uh I think again, his his
11:10
Speaker 1: standing within the Cardinals organization remains unchanged.
11:12
Speaker 3: It was an.
11:13
Speaker 1: Unpleasant night, but we move forward, and you know, maybe
11:16
Speaker 1: that appeal a couple of games dropped.
11:18
Speaker 2: Maybe it doesn't.
11:18
Speaker 1: But uh, I think if there's one thing we can
11:21
Speaker 1: take away from that whole episode Monday, Ollie Marmon and
11:25
Speaker 1: Daniel Descalzo drop the arm routines. Those guys are strong
11:28
Speaker 1: holding Wilson.
11:29
Speaker 2: Contrera's back like that.
11:30
Speaker 1: I was, I was like, you know what, we're not
11:32
Speaker 1: talking about this enough. That might have been the most
11:33
Speaker 1: athletic thing the Cardinals have done this series so far.
11:36
Speaker 1: Is the strength of those two coaches.
11:38
Speaker 3: You know, I wouldn't want to mess with the scalzough
11:40
Speaker 3: when I was covering him is when he was a player,
11:44
Speaker 3: There's there's you talk about intensity, there he just kind
11:49
Speaker 3: of there. It's quiet and he doesn't use his voice
11:52
Speaker 3: very much, at least he didn't as a player. But
11:55
Speaker 3: you would just see you would see certain expressions on
11:58
Speaker 3: his face. You'd be you'd be like, WHOA what wow, Okay, yeah,
12:02
Speaker 3: I'll go over here. Now. You know, he's it's hard
12:05
Speaker 3: to explain. It's he's got an imposing presence about him.
12:08
Speaker 3: And it's one of the reasons Tony LaRussa loved him
12:12
Speaker 3: so much because Tony thought he was like a kick
12:15
Speaker 3: ass type of competitor. You know, you know, he's not
12:18
Speaker 3: going to put up with anything. So I love seeing
12:21
Speaker 3: that the other night, and I think Oli's actually underrated
12:23
Speaker 3: in that record. I think Ali's actually pretty tough guy.
12:26
Speaker 3: And I take my.
12:27
Speaker 1: Strength to hold back angry Wilson Conturius. I'll say this
12:31
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12:44
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12:47
Speaker 2: That will be right back with you.
12:48
Speaker 1: We have some arepolante things to discuss, so let's all
12:51
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Speaker 3: That was I aggressive, That was impressive.
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Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, it's great. Great job as
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Speaker 3: one who knows one who knows great job. Anyway, thank
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Speaker 3: you so much, Edie.
14:23
Speaker 1: I won't tell you how many times that took. How
14:25
Speaker 1: many takes one and that's what matters, all right. Speaking
14:30
Speaker 1: of usable, I'm not sure if that is the word
14:34
Speaker 1: I would use to describe Andre Polante at the moment.
14:36
Speaker 1: It was another tough scene for Polante, who has just
14:39
Speaker 1: really had a poor second half. I mean, uh, it
14:43
Speaker 1: was five to nothing in the first inning yesterday before
14:45
Speaker 1: the Cardinals could record an out. Uh, let's go ahead
14:48
Speaker 1: and look up Andre Polante's stats, uh spun the second half,
14:52
Speaker 1: because I think they are pretty enlightening in terms of
14:54
Speaker 1: what the Cardinals are looking at. And Bernie, you and
14:57
Speaker 1: I know, because we've talked about this before pretty much
15:00
Speaker 1: all season long, there is not a lot of depth
15:03
Speaker 1: in this Cardinals organization from a starting pitching perspective, so
15:06
Speaker 1: that is also going to be a factor as we
15:08
Speaker 1: look at Andre Polante's usage. So in the second half,
15:11
Speaker 1: Plante is one in seven with a seven to nine
15:14
Speaker 1: to one ERA over eight games. He's logged just thirty
15:17
Speaker 1: eight and two thirds innings, is given up fifty two hits,
15:20
Speaker 1: thirty four earned runs and has struck out with just
15:24
Speaker 1: thirty one batters. It really has not been good and
15:28
Speaker 1: I thought yesterday was probably the worst start yet of
15:30
Speaker 1: the second half for him because this game fell over
15:34
Speaker 1: basically when it started. And we've talked a lot about
15:37
Speaker 1: the things that Andre Polante is trying to do. Whether
15:40
Speaker 1: it's create more spin. Last year was finding an out
15:42
Speaker 1: pitch to the righties. This year, it's trying to incorporate
15:45
Speaker 1: the curve ballumes the pitch mix so he's less predictable.
15:48
Speaker 1: He's been able to utilize some soft contact and maybe
15:52
Speaker 1: that inflated the box score a little bit in the
15:54
Speaker 1: first half, but there really hasn't been a lot of
15:55
Speaker 1: soft contact in the second half. These hits are getting
15:58
Speaker 1: hit like they're true hits. There are no flukes here.
16:02
Speaker 1: And it was interesting talking to Ali Marmal after the
16:04
Speaker 1: game Wednesday Wednesday, after the game Tuesday, because he essentially
16:08
Speaker 1: said that it is a tough situation, but they need
16:10
Speaker 1: to figure out what's best for Polante going forward, and
16:13
Speaker 1: to be honest, Bernie, I'm not sure what's best for
16:16
Speaker 1: Polante if it's to keep him in the rotation and
16:18
Speaker 1: because if he's going to be successful These are the
16:21
Speaker 1: types of hitters he needs to retire. These are the
16:23
Speaker 1: types of hitters he needs to figure out how to
16:24
Speaker 1: pitch against. He needs to learn how to pitch at
16:26
Speaker 1: the major leagues. But is it going to be at
16:28
Speaker 1: the detriment of his mental state? What would him going
16:31
Speaker 1: down to Triple A to finish the season and just
16:34
Speaker 1: work on his arsenal, work on the mechanics.
16:35
Speaker 2: Would that be better for him?
16:37
Speaker 1: I can argue both sides, and that's without even bringing
16:40
Speaker 1: up the point that the Cardinals don't really have a
16:42
Speaker 1: viable starter in Triple AH to sum in for Polante,
16:46
Speaker 1: it's kind of a mess.
16:48
Speaker 3: Well, they can all bring Eric Fetti back, I guess
16:51
Speaker 3: I okay.
16:52
Speaker 1: There was a moment from the post game where Jeff
16:55
Speaker 1: Jones and the Belvy News Democrat asked Ali a question
16:58
Speaker 1: about what we just talked about in a non challenging way,
17:01
Speaker 1: just genuine he likes to do this, genuinely, ask like
17:03
Speaker 1: what would you do? And there was a thought like,
17:06
Speaker 1: I bet he's a free agent, and I just wondered
17:08
Speaker 1: if that was if that was set at the press conference,
17:10
Speaker 1: what would have been the reaction.
17:12
Speaker 3: Listen, I Polonte is a grinder, and you know he's putting,
17:16
Speaker 3: he's put he's putting his heart in every pitch. Yeah,
17:19
Speaker 3: I respect that this is nothing personal, but you know,
17:21
Speaker 3: this is a performance based industry. You know, he's a pro.
17:26
Speaker 3: You know, you're either good enough or you're not. And
17:28
Speaker 3: he's not good enough. And I don't know what needs
17:30
Speaker 3: to happen for him to get there. Although you know,
17:33
Speaker 3: last year he made twenty starts and his ERA was
17:35
Speaker 3: under four, and I thought he did a really good job.
17:38
Speaker 3: But I'm sure hitters adjusted to him, and he didn't
17:41
Speaker 3: have great command in spring training as Villo was down,
17:45
Speaker 3: so he seemed to be he sort of got off
17:47
Speaker 3: to a bad start even for the season. But I
17:51
Speaker 3: don't think this sounds really harsh. I don't mean it
17:53
Speaker 3: to be harsh. I'm just being straight up about it.
17:57
Speaker 3: If he's in the Cardinals rotation next year, the Cardinals
18:01
Speaker 3: are gonna you might as well just go ahead and
18:03
Speaker 3: say they're probably gonna lose, you know, the ninety games
18:06
Speaker 3: or something. I mean, they just need to upgrade this rotation,
18:10
Speaker 3: and frankly, he's one of the pieces that has to
18:12
Speaker 3: be moved out of the way to upgrade it. But
18:14
Speaker 3: I also I also think that if given a choice,
18:18
Speaker 3: I would say, send him down and maybe he can
18:21
Speaker 3: uncover something and maybe Matt Pierpont can look look at
18:24
Speaker 3: him and recommend some things. I don't know, but it's
18:29
Speaker 3: the dude has to be, you know, virtually flawless for
18:33
Speaker 3: his style of pitching to work. Well, you know, there's
18:36
Speaker 3: just not enough swing and miss, not enough strikeout punch,
18:39
Speaker 3: and he is a captive to batted ball luck. But
18:43
Speaker 3: on the other hand, you know, I don't want to
18:45
Speaker 3: just every time he has a bad start just say, oh,
18:47
Speaker 3: he's unlucky. He's style of pitcher that he is. And
18:51
Speaker 3: if he can't alter that style, if he's physically incapable
18:54
Speaker 3: of doing it, I don't know what kind of future
18:56
Speaker 3: he has. And you know, the car rdals this year,
19:01
Speaker 3: including Fetti, you know, they had three starting pitchers in
19:05
Speaker 3: their rotation with twenty or more starts whose eras were
19:08
Speaker 3: over five. And you know, Michaels and Polante still here.
19:12
Speaker 3: And that applies. And I'm just doing some research this morning,
19:15
Speaker 3: and I'll just leave it at this because I'm going
19:17
Speaker 3: to write a column after we're done. You got to
19:19
Speaker 3: go back a very long way to find the Cardinal's rotation,
19:24
Speaker 3: it's got three full time starters with the era's over five.
19:28
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a historically bad rotation and that's got
19:32
Speaker 3: to change. Where he fits I don't know. But if
19:35
Speaker 3: he's back and he doesn't pitch any better than this,
19:37
Speaker 3: then the Cardinals are screwed again. They're just not going
19:41
Speaker 3: to have enough pitching.
19:42
Speaker 1: Are we prepared to have the conversation that Andre Polante
19:46
Speaker 1: might have to be an option for the Cardinals rotation
19:48
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six, because I think that is a
19:52
Speaker 1: very possible scenario when you look at where this organization
19:56
Speaker 1: stands with their pitching.
19:57
Speaker 2: I mean, Michael's is going to be free agent. Who knows.
19:58
Speaker 1: If Sunny Gray is coming, then you have virtually nobody
20:02
Speaker 1: coming up in Triple A and maybe Quinn Matthews if
20:04
Speaker 1: he's ready. But let's take one sidebar Heim Bloom historically,
20:09
Speaker 1: when even this is coming back, even with the Rays,
20:12
Speaker 1: has stressed the need to almost like keep pictures in
20:16
Speaker 1: the minor leagues longer than they need to to really
20:18
Speaker 1: ensure that they are fully ready to develop. And one
20:20
Speaker 1: of the biggest criticisms of this Cardinal's organization over the
20:23
Speaker 1: last couple of years has been their need to rush
20:25
Speaker 1: pitching prospects up and not focus on their development for
20:28
Speaker 1: the sake of need to win games. So I don't
20:31
Speaker 1: think heim Bloom, based on that and what he has
20:34
Speaker 1: done in the history of the two other organizations that
20:36
Speaker 1: he's worked in, will be rushing pictures up. So if
20:39
Speaker 1: Quinn Matthews isn't ready or take your pick in Triple A,
20:42
Speaker 1: we can't slot them in Liam Doyle whoever, as like
20:45
Speaker 1: surefire picks because the Cardinals don't plan on being competitive
20:48
Speaker 1: next year and they are not going to rush these
20:51
Speaker 1: very critical arms up for the sake of need. So
20:53
Speaker 1: we are looking at a reality next year where, based
20:56
Speaker 1: on how the off season goes, this organization might need
20:58
Speaker 1: Andre Polante to be a And that's where I feel,
21:02
Speaker 1: even though I know every fifth day it does not
21:04
Speaker 1: look good. And you cannot as a major league team
21:07
Speaker 1: be trailing five to nothing in the first inning before
21:09
Speaker 1: recording and out. You cannot be consistently down six to
21:12
Speaker 1: seven runs by the third inning each time this one
21:14
Speaker 1: starter takes them mount I get that, and this is
21:17
Speaker 1: no knock on Polante, who is grinding his ass off
21:20
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what to do okay. But with
21:22
Speaker 1: that in mind, with keeping that the Cardinals might need
21:26
Speaker 1: Polante in the rotation next year because they don't have
21:28
Speaker 1: very many options, the best thing to do is keep
21:31
Speaker 1: him in the rotation this year. Look, the Cardinals are
21:32
Speaker 1: almost twenty games out of the division. They're not winning,
21:34
Speaker 1: they're not playing for the postseason. As hard as it is,
21:38
Speaker 1: until it starts like mentally affecting him to the point
21:41
Speaker 1: where maybe we saw it with Brian Fernandez in April.
21:44
Speaker 1: You throw him out there every five days because they
21:46
Speaker 1: have to figure out this season even when it looks
21:50
Speaker 1: really bad. I mean yesterday was just it was really bad.
21:53
Speaker 1: And I don't think anyone is going to disagree with that.
21:56
Speaker 1: Here's what Only Marmals said postgame, and I thought it
21:58
Speaker 1: was pretty enlightening as to how the organization is looking
22:00
Speaker 1: at it all. He said, to keep it simple. The
22:03
Speaker 1: league has made an adjustment. So when you look at
22:04
Speaker 1: what's going to give Polante success in order to get
22:07
Speaker 1: back to where we want him, he's going to have
22:08
Speaker 1: to spin it a lot more, and that means he's
22:10
Speaker 1: going to have to be consistent with his spin. Then
22:12
Speaker 1: he goes over and talks about the adjustments that need
22:14
Speaker 1: to be made, and he said Polante has to be
22:16
Speaker 1: mentally tough enough to endure some of the crap that
22:18
Speaker 1: goes of learning on the fly. Tuesday night, that's a
22:21
Speaker 1: pretty good example of what you're learning on the fly,
22:24
Speaker 1: Allie said, it's not easy. I agree, it hasn't looked good.
22:26
Speaker 1: I'm not going to sit here and tell you that
22:27
Speaker 1: it hasn't. And we have to figure out what's next.
22:29
Speaker 1: And then he went on to go and talk about
22:30
Speaker 1: what is best for Polante in the future to finish
22:33
Speaker 1: the season, the variables coming up in Triple A or
22:36
Speaker 1: lack thereof, though he didn't say it, I did these
22:39
Speaker 1: all go into play here. I know fans are tired
22:41
Speaker 1: of hearing about it. I think Cardinals fans do understand
22:43
Speaker 1: or hopefully at this point considering how long we've talked
22:45
Speaker 1: about it, that the depth is a continuous problem. But
22:48
Speaker 1: if I'm sitting here and I'm the same Louis Cardinals,
22:51
Speaker 1: I'm running Polante out there for another start and trying
22:53
Speaker 1: to give him one more shot to figure this out.
22:55
Speaker 1: Talking to Polante yesterday rightfully really frustrated, seem pretty down
22:59
Speaker 1: on himself. If that continues to be the case and
23:01
Speaker 1: this is hurting him mentally more than it is helping
23:03
Speaker 1: him physically, then we have a different conversation. But if
23:06
Speaker 1: I'm saying Louis, I'm giving him one more shot against
23:09
Speaker 1: the Reds to try to figure this out, and then
23:11
Speaker 1: when rosters expand in September, may be a different conversation.
23:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, I don't know who they would bring up.
23:17
Speaker 3: You pointed that out. I know they have a couple
23:19
Speaker 3: of you know, they signed a couple of rotation fillers
23:25
Speaker 3: just to pitch in Memphis this year. Would they want
23:27
Speaker 3: to bring one of those guys up? Do they need
23:29
Speaker 3: to be added to the forty man roster. I don't
23:31
Speaker 3: have the answers to those questions, but basically they would
23:34
Speaker 3: be placeholders. Right, So I'm gonna touch on something you
23:39
Speaker 3: said because I agree with you, or at least I'm
23:41
Speaker 3: leaning really hard this way. Listen, it's so late in
23:44
Speaker 3: the season. You know, the Cardinals have the worst record
23:46
Speaker 3: and tied for the worst record in the National League
23:48
Speaker 3: since June thirtieth, tied for twenty ninth. Overall, They're not
23:51
Speaker 3: going anywhere. It's a lost cause. I respect the players
23:55
Speaker 3: in the managing the coaches. They want to win. I
23:57
Speaker 3: get it, but just let them pitch. You're shorthanded, and
24:01
Speaker 3: that's the organization's fault for not having enough pitching depth.
24:04
Speaker 3: You're shorthanded. Let him pitch. I think he would want
24:07
Speaker 3: to stay in the major league rotation and try to
24:10
Speaker 3: fight through it, try to work through it. I mean
24:12
Speaker 3: that that actually would be a gesture of respect shown
24:15
Speaker 3: to him. Let him pitch. What difference does it make
24:17
Speaker 3: at this point? I will say this, and I put
24:20
Speaker 3: this on X a little while ago. It's kind of
24:22
Speaker 3: it's kind of weird. If you look at Fetti, Michael
24:25
Speaker 3: Listen Polonte this year games they started the Cardinals twenty
24:28
Speaker 3: six and forty five. That's a three sixty six winning percentage.
24:32
Speaker 3: In all other games they're thirty nine and twenty three.
24:35
Speaker 3: That's a six twenty nine winning percentage. I mean, I'm
24:38
Speaker 3: not saying it's all their fault, but it just shows you. Look,
24:41
Speaker 3: I think even good teams can have one bad starting pitcher, right,
24:46
Speaker 3: but three you're you're in a lot of trouble. You're
24:49
Speaker 3: a lot you're you're you are in deep you know what? Right?
24:52
Speaker 3: So here here they are right yep.
24:56
Speaker 1: And it's it's tough, Bernie, it's tough there.
24:58
Speaker 2: I think fans.
24:59
Speaker 1: Frustration with the and I get it, I think it's justified.
25:02
Speaker 1: Is if you continue trotting Plante out there every fifth day,
25:06
Speaker 1: then it's just like, okay, well we're not going to
25:08
Speaker 1: like just do the same thing over and over again.
25:10
Speaker 1: That's literally the definition of insanity. This is bigger than this, though,
25:14
Speaker 1: Like what the Cardinals are trying to do for their
25:16
Speaker 1: entire organization is bigger than winning a handful of games
25:19
Speaker 1: in the second half based on what starting pitcher is
25:21
Speaker 1: on the mouth. I'm with you, You're only as good
25:23
Speaker 1: as a major league team as you're starting pitching. The
25:25
Speaker 1: Cardinal starting pitching has Fate taking a dramatic fall off
25:28
Speaker 1: a clip, and the record has followed suit. But for
25:31
Speaker 1: the fans that are here saying, well, they're gonna throw
25:34
Speaker 1: Polante up, we're tired of this. There has to be
25:36
Speaker 1: a better option.
25:37
Speaker 3: And I get it, I do I get it, I
25:39
Speaker 3: get it.
25:40
Speaker 1: But this is not about Polante's taking the start every
25:44
Speaker 1: five days. This is about the long term sustainability of
25:46
Speaker 1: the organization. And this is what teams that are rebuilding do.
25:50
Speaker 1: And it's not fun for anybody, and for this fan base,
25:53
Speaker 1: we haven't had to see a rebuild and like what
25:55
Speaker 1: fifty years, so it's frustrating. Of course it's going to
25:59
Speaker 1: look different, and it's maddening if you're a fan.
26:01
Speaker 2: We won't even get into attendance this episode, but.
26:03
Speaker 1: That ballpark is empty, and rightfully so, because fans aren't
26:07
Speaker 1: happy about the product they're seeing. You're going to continue
26:09
Speaker 1: seeing the product that you don't like right now in
26:12
Speaker 1: the hopes that it will be better in the future.
26:14
Speaker 1: I think Polante is the perfect microcous an example for that,
26:17
Speaker 1: and I.
26:18
Speaker 3: Think people have to adjust their expectations because they're not
26:22
Speaker 3: going to go out and be aggressive about signing free agents.
26:25
Speaker 3: And in fact, I think one of the heine Bloom's
26:26
Speaker 3: qualities is he can recognize value signings. You Robster Folio,
26:31
Speaker 3: all those guys are really smart. They can spot a
26:34
Speaker 3: trait in someone or a pitch that someone needs to throw,
26:39
Speaker 3: and if you give them a better arsenal, you can
26:42
Speaker 3: turn them around. They are big time into that kind
26:45
Speaker 3: of stuff. So they're going to have to go out
26:47
Speaker 3: because you're so right if they don't want to rush
26:49
Speaker 3: any of their young starters up here. And I actually
26:52
Speaker 3: think it would be smart not to do that. You know,
26:55
Speaker 3: they're going to have to go out and sign a
26:57
Speaker 3: couple of free agents, and I'm talking about the bargain
27:01
Speaker 3: the bargain aisle of the store, and hope that they
27:05
Speaker 3: can do something with the guy to turn them around.
27:07
Speaker 3: But they're gonna have to They're really gonna have to
27:09
Speaker 3: do that. They're gonna have to make a couple of
27:10
Speaker 3: depth signings and we'll see what happens. But no, they're
27:15
Speaker 3: this is not gonna be easy. But I also think
27:17
Speaker 3: it's gonna it's actually the right time for a rebuild
27:20
Speaker 3: to do it right, because you won't be taking these
27:23
Speaker 3: half measure steps, these these ridiculous signings where it doesn't
27:27
Speaker 3: make you any better but you're wasting money on them.
27:30
Speaker 3: If you're gonna rebuild, do it right and you'll come
27:32
Speaker 3: out much better for it. So the fans are down
27:35
Speaker 3: on the Cardinals are staying away. That's their right, that's
27:37
Speaker 3: their privilege. If you're not happy, then you you know,
27:41
Speaker 3: you spend your money and invest your time the way
27:43
Speaker 3: you want. But this is also a good time to
27:45
Speaker 3: do a rebuild because your fans are mad at you anyway,
27:49
Speaker 3: And and once they see some progress on the rebuild
27:52
Speaker 3: front and there and I think progress will happen. In fact,
27:55
Speaker 3: the Cardon's farm system is shooting up in the ratings
27:58
Speaker 3: all of a sudden because a lot of these of
28:00
Speaker 3: these independent evaluators have so much respect for the work
28:03
Speaker 3: Bloom and Sorfolio have done already. So you we're already
28:07
Speaker 3: seeing some progress. The fans will come back when you
28:10
Speaker 3: give them a reason to come back. And I don't
28:12
Speaker 3: think that they They're gonna hate the rebuild at first.
28:15
Speaker 3: They're gonna hate it. I get it. But when you
28:18
Speaker 3: see some of these guys graduate and you see, well
28:21
Speaker 3: wait a minute, they did have they do have a plan,
28:23
Speaker 3: and we are seeing some of the results. Cardinals fans
28:26
Speaker 3: have always come back. They went through attendance laws before.
28:29
Speaker 3: This is nothing new. It happened in the seventies, it
28:32
Speaker 3: happened in the early nineties. They always come back. But
28:36
Speaker 3: the Cardinals have to entice them back. But you got
28:38
Speaker 3: to accept the fact they're rebuilding, and they need to
28:41
Speaker 3: because to not rebuild would be a betrayal actually of
28:47
Speaker 3: everything good the Cardinals have stayed for. Where you're just
28:49
Speaker 3: gonna allow something to stay mired and mediocrity. That would
28:54
Speaker 3: be a terrible thing to do. Give me rebuild every
28:58
Speaker 3: single day of the week.
28:58
Speaker 1: If I have to make a choice, and it doesn't
29:00
Speaker 1: have to be like we talked about, Bernie. It doesn't
29:02
Speaker 1: have to be a complete teardown, nor should it be.
29:04
Speaker 1: It's not going to be, but it is going to
29:06
Speaker 1: be a multi year look at how to make this
29:08
Speaker 1: organization not just contending again, but a pioneering organization again.
29:13
Speaker 1: And when you listen to him, Bloomspeaker, I know he
29:15
Speaker 1: hasn't really done much this year. The Cardinals have always
29:18
Speaker 1: been a one voice organization and preferred to be that way,
29:21
Speaker 1: So as long as Moe is here, I think that
29:23
Speaker 1: will continue being the case.
29:25
Speaker 2: But when you have a chance to talk to him, I.
29:26
Speaker 1: Think fans will quickly pick up on the appreciation he
29:29
Speaker 1: has for baseball history and he knows that the Saint
29:31
Speaker 1: Louis Cardinals. This stucks out to me, even now, ten
29:34
Speaker 1: months after he said it. He said at his end
29:37
Speaker 1: of your press conference, the Saint Louis Cardinals are at
29:39
Speaker 1: their best when they're leading organizations and leading the industry.
29:43
Speaker 1: I think that's the end goal of this rebuild. It's
29:45
Speaker 1: not just to bring winning baseball back to Saint Louis.
29:47
Speaker 1: Of course that's party number one, but Priority one A
29:49
Speaker 1: is to ensure that the Cardinals are once again pioneers
29:53
Speaker 1: in player development, pioneers in drafting.
29:55
Speaker 2: I mean they changed the game. They change the industry.
29:58
Speaker 1: Multiple times, whether fans want to believe it or not,
30:00
Speaker 1: under John Mozilla's tenure. That's to me a Sanluis Cardinals baseball.
30:04
Speaker 1: It's not just World Series titles and posts and verse
30:06
Speaker 1: and competitive ball.
30:07
Speaker 2: It's changing the industry for the better.
30:09
Speaker 1: And I hope that's what this Rebuilt brings this organization.
30:12
Speaker 1: Quick message from Built Rewards and will wrap up this episode.
30:15
Speaker 2: Be right back, Kratz.
30:18
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30:20
Speaker 4: you're not getting anything for it, then you probably haven't
30:22
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30:27
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30:29
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31:18
Speaker 1: All right, as we get ready for Wednesday's matchup, Sonny
31:21
Speaker 1: Gray on the mound just got a message from the
31:23
Speaker 1: Cardinals communications team that John King was placed on the
31:25
Speaker 1: injury list retroactive to August twenty sixth yesterday with a
31:29
Speaker 1: mid backstrain. So Andre Gnnillo has been recalled from Memphis,
31:32
Speaker 1: which means the Cardinals are back to having one count
31:35
Speaker 1: it one a lefty reliever yay, and Jojo Romero has
31:40
Speaker 1: not been a very easy second half for King his
31:42
Speaker 1: second ile stint of the season. Cardinals lineup is ol
31:45
Speaker 1: contrarast is in it, so that appeal process is still
31:48
Speaker 1: going through. If we're looking for a silver lining, sunny
31:51
Speaker 1: Gray on the mound today and Cardinals usually tend to
31:53
Speaker 1: win those games, so hopefully they can do that.
31:56
Speaker 3: Bernie, Fine, well, and it's not hot outside.
32:00
Speaker 1: It's nice and cool forny, So go ahead and book that.
32:02
Speaker 1: Uh seven, start.
32:05
Speaker 3: Right right, go to draftings. See what that what that
32:07
Speaker 3: line of the day is for Sonny Gray for for
32:10
Speaker 3: the the pick six fantasy. I think I think there's
32:13
Speaker 3: a winner there. So cool weather.
32:16
Speaker 1: Marbles are because, uh, yesterday was pretty grim.
32:19
Speaker 3: You know.
32:19
Speaker 2: They don't even have to win games.
32:21
Speaker 1: I mean, from my perspective, though, I would like to
32:24
Speaker 1: watch a competitive.
32:24
Speaker 2: Game unt at least a sixth in or so. That's
32:26
Speaker 2: really didn't happen yesterday.
32:28
Speaker 3: You know. And I know we got you got to go,
32:29
Speaker 3: especially you have work to do too, but I get
32:31
Speaker 3: to stay home and do it. You got to get
32:33
Speaker 3: to the ballpark, But no, I got to say and listen,
32:35
Speaker 3: I love to watch baseball so much, like I'm really
32:38
Speaker 3: enjoying watching Alec Burlos and I'm really enjoyed watching Nolan Gorman.
32:42
Speaker 3: I'm I'm really enjoying watching Mason win play defense. I mean,
32:46
Speaker 3: there's still some stuff that grabs your attention and makes
32:49
Speaker 3: you smile a little bit, right, so you know, you know,
32:53
Speaker 3: and so I I, yeah, it's been it's been a
32:55
Speaker 3: disappointing season, but I'm just not like in this mode
32:59
Speaker 3: of mind frame where it's just like I hate everything.
33:02
Speaker 3: You know, it's if you love baseball, there's even stuff
33:05
Speaker 3: on this team that you would like a lot.
33:07
Speaker 1: And that's what we tried to point out in our
33:09
Speaker 1: positive episode on Sunday. And then the Cardinals had a
33:11
Speaker 1: four and a half hour rain delay and lost seven
33:14
Speaker 1: to two. So first of yeah, thanks, thanks you guys, Yeah,
33:17
Speaker 1: thanks for doing that, have your back, and then you
33:19
Speaker 1: played arguably your worst game of the season.
33:20
Speaker 2: So it's fine.
33:21
Speaker 1: Hey, we're gonna try to salvage the series game tonight,
33:26
Speaker 1: game Thursday, and then three games against the Reds in
33:29
Speaker 1: Cincinnati less than thirty game for me and on the
33:31
Speaker 1: regular season doc at Bernie that is crazy. But speaking
33:34
Speaker 1: of which, I need to get to game number whatever
33:36
Speaker 1: this is. Uh, So we'll wrap this episode up. We'll
33:39
Speaker 1: come back with you later in the week for more
33:40
Speaker 1: Cardinals updates.
33:41
Speaker 2: For Bernie Michelis.
33:42
Speaker 1: I'm Katie who thanks as always for watching Cardinal Territory.
33:45
Speaker 2: We'll talk very soon
34:00
Speaker 3: Out