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The Tomb of Violence - Jika Jika · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Appoche Production Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm
0:16
Speaker 1: your host, Adam Shand. This is the second part of
0:19
Speaker 1: my look at the punishment divisions of the infamous Pantry Prison.
0:23
Speaker 1: In the first part, I talked to former inmate Ray
0:26
Speaker 1: Mooney about H Division, where a rigid discipline and frequent
0:30
Speaker 1: violence were used to break the spirit of men who
0:33
Speaker 1: refused to comply with the rules. The successor to H
0:37
Speaker 1: Division was Jaiker Jiker, which opened in nineteen eighty at
0:40
Speaker 1: a cost of seven million dollars. It was a jail
0:43
Speaker 1: within a jail designed to house Victoria's hardest and longest
0:47
Speaker 1: serving prisoners. Jaiker Jiker was based on the idea of
0:51
Speaker 1: six separate units at the end of radiating spines. The
0:55
Speaker 1: futuristic design featured electronic doors, closed circuit TV, and remote locking,
1:01
Speaker 1: which was meant to keep staff costs down while keeping
1:04
Speaker 1: security at a maximum. Prisoners exercised in bird cage like
1:09
Speaker 1: escape proof yards, and they could be watched by staff
1:12
Speaker 1: at all times.
1:13
Speaker 2: Jaker Jiker was.
1:14
Speaker 1: A sterile, soulless environment that took its toll on the inmates.
1:19
Speaker 1: In October nineteen eighty seven, five prisoners staged a protest
1:23
Speaker 1: by setting fire in their unit, which caused their own
1:26
Speaker 1: demise through asphixiation.
1:28
Speaker 2: The unit was closed down not long after.
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Speaker 1: Former bank Robert Doug Morgan had three stints in Jiker
1:34
Speaker 1: Jiker and I caught up with him recently to discuss
1:37
Speaker 1: the unit that he called the Tomb of Violence.
1:41
Speaker 2: Doug Morgan, Welcome back to Real Crime talking about real crime.
1:45
Speaker 3: Is that what we do?
1:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's the show Real Crime without a shack.
1:47
Speaker 2: You know what it is. You've been on there a
1:48
Speaker 2: couple of times after I know, I know. We are
1:51
Speaker 2: in the car park under Pentridge here pretty much.
1:54
Speaker 4: Actually Underwhear the old kitchen that I was a baker
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Speaker 4: in this kitchen directly above us. I was a carpenter
2:00
Speaker 4: by trade. And they said, do you want to work
2:01
Speaker 4: in the bakery as the pastry cook. I've never cooked
2:05
Speaker 4: in human life. They gave you're suitable.
2:08
Speaker 1: This is episode two of the Maximum Security the punishment
2:13
Speaker 1: divisions in pantries.
2:14
Speaker 2: We've dealt with H Division.
2:15
Speaker 1: You're in H Division as well because you're a naughty boy,
2:18
Speaker 1: but you're also in Jiker Jiker tell us the difference
2:22
Speaker 1: between H division and Jiker Joker.
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Speaker 4: Well, he division were set up in nineteen fifty eight,
2:28
Speaker 4: mainly for William O'Meally so they could punish prisoners. And
2:34
Speaker 4: I always like to bring things back to this. What
2:36
Speaker 4: people would realize is hate division. The moment you walk
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Speaker 4: into pen Tridge, you were threatened, if you don't behave,
2:43
Speaker 4: you'll go to hate division, and the rumors from the
2:45
Speaker 4: screws and the prisoners was you're going to get a flogging. Now,
2:50
Speaker 4: I try to tell people, it's like in the old
2:52
Speaker 4: days when your mum said you wait till your father
2:54
Speaker 4: gets home, and you'd go, I'll behave. So they controlled
2:58
Speaker 4: Penridge by h division as you're going to get a flogging,
3:03
Speaker 4: and that's what they used it for. And they did
3:05
Speaker 4: do that, and it slowly mellowed over the years, and
3:08
Speaker 4: the screws that were working there slowly were chosen more normal.
3:14
Speaker 3: Type attitude rather than the bashing attitude.
3:16
Speaker 4: So that's what Haiti vision was basically used to control
3:21
Speaker 4: the general population.
3:22
Speaker 2: Did you get a beating down in age division, I'm.
3:24
Speaker 3: Trying to think no.
3:26
Speaker 2: No.
3:26
Speaker 4: I actually had more problems down in Jiker, but that
3:28
Speaker 4: was usually my own fould anyway.
3:31
Speaker 1: And just to refresh people's memory on your background, you
3:34
Speaker 1: were part of the after Dark Bandit d you and
3:36
Speaker 1: your identical brother Peter.
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Speaker 4: Sure, and you just asked me, did I get a
3:40
Speaker 4: beating down there? I started going to Hate Vision in
3:45
Speaker 4: probably late seventy nine or eighty, and by that's time
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Speaker 4: it had mellowed. But I also look back over the
3:53
Speaker 4: years now my brother shot a police officer I found,
3:58
Speaker 4: and I do believe this, if you're getting out in
4:01
Speaker 4: ten twelve years and not doing life forever, and your
4:06
Speaker 4: family is willing to have a go with the police,
4:09
Speaker 4: that they're a little wary that you might be out
4:11
Speaker 4: in ten years. And even the night that I or
4:14
Speaker 4: the day I got shot at by a prison officer
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Speaker 4: in the tower and then surrounded by prison officers with
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Speaker 4: buttons and I refused to move and go to Hate Vision.
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Speaker 4: They said, I said, you're not taking me down there
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Speaker 4: to beat me, And they said if you, I'll pulled
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Speaker 4: a shoe and said, the first one that hits me
4:31
Speaker 4: with a button, I'm going to cut.
4:33
Speaker 3: So you'd think they would beat me.
4:34
Speaker 4: After that, they said, look, doggie, you come to Hate Vision,
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Speaker 4: we own beat you.
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Speaker 3: What I really believe now when.
4:40
Speaker 4: I look back, is that if they thought that there'd
4:44
Speaker 4: be retaliation by you. Later, maybe they were a bit
4:47
Speaker 4: more mellow with you. The prison officer that shot at
4:51
Speaker 4: me that afternoon came to my cell door in hate
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Speaker 4: vision that night, banged on the door and said, hey, Dougie,
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Speaker 4: I go, yeah, he goes, Am I all right?
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Speaker 3: I go, what do you mean? He goes, you know
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Speaker 3: what I mean? Am I all right? I go, Yes,
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Speaker 3: you're fine.
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Speaker 4: So I think sometimes having a brother that had shot
5:09
Speaker 4: a police officer might have worked in my favor.
5:11
Speaker 2: There you go, you were the better one, supposedly.
5:14
Speaker 4: Well, but I would have a go with a this.
5:16
Speaker 4: But you know, that's just the same as my attitude
5:19
Speaker 4: is the same. In a pub, you have a bit
5:21
Speaker 4: of a game, but then you have a beer.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough country, and you can't be fighting all
5:25
Speaker 1: the time otherwise your life's going to be hell. And
5:27
Speaker 1: then you'll spend all your time in the punishment divisions,
5:29
Speaker 1: which you did spend time.
5:30
Speaker 2: In H division. So let's go back to that comparison.
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Speaker 1: H Division was a medieval dungeon, yep old, bluestone, drafty, cold, unpleasant,
5:40
Speaker 1: It didn't work. There was lots of issues about violence
5:43
Speaker 1: down there. There was lots of bad publicity, so they
5:46
Speaker 1: opened Jiker Jucker.
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Speaker 2: You were in the prison at the time.
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Speaker 1: What was the talk about Jiker Jiker amongst inmates.
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Speaker 4: Well, nobody knew what it was going to be like,
5:54
Speaker 4: because the first time I went down there was eighty
5:58
Speaker 4: and it hadn't been opened that long, so nobody had
6:01
Speaker 4: really come back, so it was like a distant land.
6:05
Speaker 4: So when I got down there, I was put in
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Speaker 4: with the rabble, and I spent most of my days
6:11
Speaker 4: in Penridge, circulating and mixing with the boys that had reputations.
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Speaker 3: I got there and I thought, oh, this is not
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Speaker 3: that bad.
6:19
Speaker 4: I think the second or third day, I watched somebody
6:21
Speaker 4: get their throat cut in front of me, and I
6:23
Speaker 4: was playing cards and blood was coming across from the
6:25
Speaker 4: other side of the card table basically, which was a
6:29
Speaker 4: blanket on the ground out in the yard, and I
6:32
Speaker 4: was getting blood in my face off this open wound
6:35
Speaker 4: in her neck, thinking oh, it's pretty serious down here.
6:39
Speaker 4: But when I look back at it, I liked Jiker
6:43
Speaker 4: because I had new facilities. I had a bigger cell,
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Speaker 4: I could train all day or play tennis all day.
6:50
Speaker 4: Only a very short period of time did we actually
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Speaker 4: ever do any work which was putting pizza boxes together.
6:56
Speaker 1: Let's get back to the physical difference as though before
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Speaker 1: we get to that stuff, because it was an ultra
7:00
Speaker 1: modern facility, but it was based on a very old idea,
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Speaker 1: the Bentham pannop yep, where at all times staff have
7:08
Speaker 1: an eye on yes.
7:10
Speaker 2: What was the physical layout of well, jiker.
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Speaker 4: Was totally different when you actually get there and moved
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Speaker 4: into Jikeer and along the corridors, and that you were
7:18
Speaker 4: always with two or three screws to one prisoner, usually
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Speaker 4: handcuffed when you're being moved around. When you got to
7:25
Speaker 4: your cell area, you were basically went through a sliding
7:29
Speaker 4: door and the screws were in their section and they
7:32
Speaker 4: were behind bulletproof class and they could see into your section,
7:35
Speaker 4: but they weren't allowed to come into your section without
7:38
Speaker 4: at least three prison officers and we only had six prisoners.
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Speaker 4: Was very regimented on a different system. It was isolation
7:45
Speaker 4: and no contact physical with prison officers. They were behind
7:49
Speaker 4: bulletproof class watching you. If you were doing something, they
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Speaker 4: couldn't come in and stop you. They'd have to ring
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Speaker 4: for extra prison offices to come before they could open doors.
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Speaker 4: Every door was controlled by their control panel and was
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Speaker 4: a slow sliding door. So it was totally different and
8:07
Speaker 4: it was of the future. When I look back, it
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Speaker 4: was a bit like Star Wars. We had these long corridors,
8:12
Speaker 4: big spaces. But I enjoyed the fact that even my
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Speaker 4: friend Chopper Reid used to talk about in Hah division,
8:23
Speaker 4: you can control what's going on in a small prison,
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Speaker 4: a small area because you know who's there. In Jaiker,
8:30
Speaker 4: you're only in with five other prisoners and you might
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Speaker 4: only be mixing with them for a year or two years.
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Speaker 4: Unless somebody gets moved out. You could mix with another
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Speaker 4: five or six prisoners that were in an adjoining building.
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Speaker 4: So at the very most you could mix with twelve
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Speaker 4: eleven other people twelve years total. In the tennis court. Now,
8:51
Speaker 4: when you're in a main part of the jail with
8:53
Speaker 4: general population, you're surrounded by you could have one hundred
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Speaker 4: and fifty prisoners in a division. It's very hard to
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Speaker 4: watch body language of one hundred and fifty prisoners, and
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Speaker 4: some you don't even know. You don't know if they're
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Speaker 4: your enemy or if one of their friends is your enemy,
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Speaker 4: So you can get stabbed by somebody you've never met before.
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Speaker 4: When you live with five guys, you learn their body language,
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Speaker 4: you learn their moods, you learn all this and I
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Speaker 4: can look at somebody and read what's going on and
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Speaker 4: feel that body language.
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Speaker 1: We talked about the fact that the screws could see
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Speaker 1: you all the time. Yeah, but you could also see
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Speaker 1: the screws all the time, which is a different dynamic
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Speaker 1: to h and most prisons I've ever heard of it.
9:34
Speaker 4: Well in most the haitre vision and the rest of pentriage.
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Speaker 4: Once you're in your cell, you can't see anybody. You
9:40
Speaker 4: can hear footsteps and all that, and the gates being
9:43
Speaker 4: opened in Jaika most of the time you can see them.
9:47
Speaker 4: And even at nighttime you can see out your big
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Speaker 4: window and look at windows across there and other prisoners
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Speaker 4: waving to you. So you actually had a window the
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Speaker 4: size of a normal bedroom rather than a little window
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Speaker 4: nine foot up in the air that you can't get to.
10:02
Speaker 3: You had recycled air.
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Speaker 4: Your cell was three times the size of a selling
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Speaker 4: Haste division was clean. You only had one shower for
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Speaker 4: six guys, so everyone was clean. You could sit in
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Speaker 4: the dayroom all day and do nothing except for watching
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Speaker 4: TV or play table tennis. You had a washing machine,
10:18
Speaker 4: for your six guys. You had a fridge for the
10:20
Speaker 4: six guys, so the actual facilities were brilliant, and even
10:25
Speaker 4: for me, it changed my artwork because instead of being
10:28
Speaker 4: in a nine x six, basically were in the size
10:30
Speaker 4: of a bathroom and trying to live in there and
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Speaker 4: also paint my artwork. Could I could paint bigger paintings,
10:38
Speaker 4: and I could have better sunlight coming into the cell
10:41
Speaker 4: to paint it natural light. So there's all these differences,
10:45
Speaker 4: but the main difference is the fact that it didn't
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Speaker 4: work because most people couldn't handle mixing with only five
10:54
Speaker 4: other prisoners for year in, year out. The other problem
10:58
Speaker 4: it caused was they felt very protected because other prisoners
11:03
Speaker 4: weren't allowed into your as an empty cell. You had
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Speaker 4: to say, yes, will allow this prisoner to be in
11:10
Speaker 4: our group of six, which means you had control in
11:13
Speaker 4: a strange way. So they'd go through the files and
11:16
Speaker 4: make sure they didn't put enemies with enemies, and so
11:19
Speaker 4: it became very much you were king of your domain
11:22
Speaker 4: or the group of people, and it actually created problems
11:25
Speaker 4: years later where people in this unit would mouth off
11:28
Speaker 4: about people in another unit. And one of the biggest
11:31
Speaker 4: problems in jail is the egos and the mouthing off
11:34
Speaker 4: from person to person, and then later on you're being
11:38
Speaker 4: moved to go to court or something and you get
11:40
Speaker 4: put in at the van with somebody you've been mouthing
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Speaker 4: off of us.
11:43
Speaker 2: Square up time. Yeah.
11:45
Speaker 4: Now, I met a very interesting person in a van
11:47
Speaker 4: one day when I was going to court from Jiker, Norm.
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Speaker 2: Gallagher, the elect General secretary.
11:53
Speaker 4: Who was the man who decided that he wouldn't build
11:56
Speaker 4: Jiker and refused to build Jiker until they greased his.
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Speaker 3: Palm a little bit right.
12:01
Speaker 4: He ended up there and they made deals the same
12:03
Speaker 4: as they do now, where they pay the building companies
12:08
Speaker 4: huger amounts to agree to build things. And that's what
12:11
Speaker 4: happened with Jaka. Jiker wasn't going to be built till
12:14
Speaker 4: the union struck a deal with the government.
12:16
Speaker 1: Well funny because the government really touted Jako Jiker was
12:20
Speaker 1: the future of incarceration and it even got an award
12:23
Speaker 1: for Excellence and Concrete, which yes, which probably tells you
12:27
Speaker 1: what the environment was like. A lot of concrete, a
12:29
Speaker 1: lot of glass, a lot of electronic doors, a lot
12:32
Speaker 1: of cameras and all that sort of thing. But I
12:34
Speaker 1: think you've sort of much sold it like a marketing
12:36
Speaker 1: guru there how nice it was. But you also have
12:39
Speaker 1: called it a tomb of violence.
12:41
Speaker 4: Why because the worst crimes as far as approach getting cut,
12:46
Speaker 4: prisoners killing each other, the isolation working on your brain.
12:51
Speaker 4: For most prisoners, they couldn't handle it. But I see
12:54
Speaker 4: that a bit like them becoming the victims, where when
12:58
Speaker 4: you're a victim, things manifest in your brain. It's not real,
13:02
Speaker 4: but you start to hate the ice all that, so
13:06
Speaker 4: you manifest all this to make it worse where the
13:08
Speaker 4: reality was.
13:10
Speaker 3: You could stay there.
13:11
Speaker 4: For a long period of time, because it's not like
13:13
Speaker 4: what you're see in movies where they stick a bloke
13:15
Speaker 4: and a cell and he doesn't see anybody for five
13:18
Speaker 4: years because he's only allowed to go in a yard
13:19
Speaker 4: by himself. When you left the building and went outside,
13:22
Speaker 4: you had a whole tennis court. We used to sit
13:25
Speaker 4: outside and with other Let's say, mainly the people were
13:28
Speaker 4: down there, there was someone protection. Mainly they were in a
13:31
Speaker 4: lot of interstate prisoners who had escaped and brought back
13:34
Speaker 4: into custody and came to Jiker and they'd stay here
13:37
Speaker 4: for a while, then they'd be sent back to wherever
13:38
Speaker 4: they came from. So we would sit outside, sometimes in
13:42
Speaker 4: a group of four or five, and we'd play double
13:45
Speaker 4: tennis doubles tennis all day and just swap over. So
13:48
Speaker 4: we'd spend eight hours a day outside playing tennis. We
13:51
Speaker 4: weren't locked up till seven or eight o'clock at night,
13:54
Speaker 4: where the other divisions were locked up at three point thirty.
13:56
Speaker 3: And the fact we even had a washing machine.
13:58
Speaker 1: Goodness, you're back to your marketing brochure again about a
14:01
Speaker 1: good jiker. Joker was, but equally people have talked about
14:03
Speaker 1: it being psycho logically crushing. You talked about the seclusion,
14:07
Speaker 1: the isolation people felt.
14:09
Speaker 2: You obviously didn't feel.
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Speaker 1: That way about it, but others did to the point
14:13
Speaker 1: where driven a bit mad.
14:15
Speaker 4: Look, I don't know how to get to that, but
14:17
Speaker 4: I will get to it. In a strange way. I
14:20
Speaker 4: walk into a bank and I rob a bank teller.
14:23
Speaker 4: Some bank tellers will recover from that stress in an hour,
14:27
Speaker 4: and some will recover in twenty years and blame me.
14:29
Speaker 3: For the rest of their life. That's exactly like prisoners.
14:33
Speaker 4: Some will go down there and boys used to tell me,
14:35
Speaker 4: my hair's dropping out. I'm becoming bored because of the
14:39
Speaker 4: stress down here. I even think back on I don't
14:41
Speaker 4: even know the blakes I'm talking about. I go, nah,
14:44
Speaker 4: you're just imagining that. So it's all what you perceive
14:47
Speaker 4: the situation to be. Now, I will say that it failed.
14:52
Speaker 4: It failed because and the screws would tell you the
14:55
Speaker 4: same thing. It failed because if something seriously went wrong,
15:00
Speaker 4: they couldn't solve the problem. They couldn't get enough men
15:03
Speaker 4: in there quickly enough to stop the fire when the
15:05
Speaker 4: fire that was set as a protest. So what happened
15:10
Speaker 4: was the fact that jay have to have back up
15:12
Speaker 4: before they.
15:12
Speaker 3: Can even move was the problem.
15:16
Speaker 4: So the isolation was almost worse for them rather than
15:20
Speaker 4: for us.
15:20
Speaker 1: And even for prisoners. He might have been bashed or
15:23
Speaker 1: stabbed or set on fire. There was precious seconds or minutes.
15:27
Speaker 4: Well, I'll give you an example of that. When one
15:30
Speaker 4: guy had his throat cut in front of me. The
15:32
Speaker 4: six cells on one side and six on the other side,
15:35
Speaker 4: and the screws in the middle. We had separate doors
15:37
Speaker 4: to get out to the tennis court. We can't go
15:40
Speaker 4: up their set of steps into their section because we'd
15:42
Speaker 4: be on the wrong side. The guy trying to escape
15:45
Speaker 4: from the people stabbing him, ran up the wrong set
15:48
Speaker 4: of steps and he's banging on the bulletproof class saying
15:51
Speaker 4: let me in, let me in there stabbing me. The
15:54
Speaker 4: person who'd been stabbing him was standing three feet from
15:57
Speaker 4: him with his hand behind his back with his shoe,
16:00
Speaker 4: and the screw's going you're on the wrong side, go
16:02
Speaker 4: to the other door, and he can't get past the
16:04
Speaker 4: guy who's got the shieve to get to the other door.
16:07
Speaker 4: So that because they were following procedure. Now, if he
16:11
Speaker 4: hadn't realized that bloke's got his freat cut, he should
16:13
Speaker 4: have led him in.
16:15
Speaker 3: So it was a tomb. But the reality is I
16:20
Speaker 3: look at it and go well, to me, it was good.
16:23
Speaker 3: Other people was bad.
16:25
Speaker 4: But then again, I could be married to one woman
16:27
Speaker 4: it'd be good, and you could be married to it
16:29
Speaker 4: as bad. So life is about how you perceive it.
16:32
Speaker 1: Indeed, now while are you down there, because it was
16:36
Speaker 1: an heir to the punishment aspects of h division.
16:39
Speaker 4: How it worked was when you were picked up for
16:42
Speaker 4: something in jail, And what people got to understand is
16:45
Speaker 4: jail is not like on the outside. I punish a
16:48
Speaker 4: screw in jail, I don't go to court and get punished.
16:50
Speaker 4: If I punish a police officer in a situation outside,
16:54
Speaker 4: they arrest me and they take me to court. What
16:57
Speaker 4: jails are set up for as they do the punishment
16:59
Speaker 4: because the government's got total power. So you get arrested
17:03
Speaker 4: for something, you go to Haste Division investigation once Jiker
17:07
Speaker 4: had opened, that holds you there while they investigate a
17:09
Speaker 4: little bit, and they go, right, we're going to hold
17:12
Speaker 4: you for more than say two months, We're going to
17:14
Speaker 4: send you to Jaiker because we're going to fill the
17:16
Speaker 4: cell because we're going to lease new cells, so we're
17:18
Speaker 4: going to send you down there. So that was a cycle.
17:22
Speaker 4: So every time I got into trouble, I'd go to
17:24
Speaker 4: Hate Division. If the trouble was going to cause isolation
17:27
Speaker 4: for a while, they would send you to Jiker. If
17:30
Speaker 4: the punishment was only going to be a short period,
17:32
Speaker 4: that'd hold you in Hate Division, send you back to
17:34
Speaker 4: be Division. So it was basically the long term punishment division,
17:39
Speaker 4: which used to be Hate Division but now had become
17:42
Speaker 4: hatre Vision became a short term holding pen for investigation
17:47
Speaker 4: or perhaps even people on protection.
17:51
Speaker 1: And you'd been you tried to escape, yep, you had
17:54
Speaker 1: allegedly brought explosives.
17:57
Speaker 3: No, that was much later.
17:58
Speaker 2: That was much later.
17:59
Speaker 1: Yep, allegedly allegedly you've always denied it. Well, I think
18:02
Speaker 1: I could back it in that that happened.
18:03
Speaker 4: Being shot out obviously during escape. Obviously I was going
18:06
Speaker 4: to be held in the high security for long term
18:07
Speaker 4: period period of time. So yes, of course I went
18:10
Speaker 4: to Hayte Vision. They then classify you to be moved.
18:14
Speaker 4: You can't be moved to Jike without being classified. They
18:17
Speaker 4: sit on you and right, you're going to be held
18:19
Speaker 4: for a while. You're going to go to Jiker for
18:20
Speaker 4: a while. That was I think the second time I
18:23
Speaker 4: went down there, and I went, oh good, I'll just
18:25
Speaker 4: go to Jiker and play tennis all day and catch
18:27
Speaker 4: up with some mates that I'd met down there, et cetera,
18:29
Speaker 4: et cetera.
18:30
Speaker 3: So then, but I actually saw it definitely.
18:33
Speaker 4: To most people, I'd go to Hayte Vision, Jiker, back
18:37
Speaker 4: to B Division. So I used to do these cycles
18:39
Speaker 4: of the jail system, which broke up. It's like traveling
18:42
Speaker 4: down Victoria. So rather than spending your holidays all in
18:45
Speaker 4: one little town, I would just do my tour of
18:48
Speaker 4: the jail and get back to the start and then
18:50
Speaker 4: go round like monopoly board again.
18:53
Speaker 1: Right shrink it right down until very small.
18:56
Speaker 4: I'd get to experience like a movement because the first
18:59
Speaker 4: thing I realized when I was in jail was I
19:01
Speaker 4: was living on because I lived on a farm before
19:03
Speaker 4: I came to jail, that I'm living on a rather
19:05
Speaker 4: big farm. This is going to be boring for twelve
19:07
Speaker 4: years not being able to move out of the farm.
19:09
Speaker 4: So even the movement around the different divisions because of
19:12
Speaker 4: punishment actually broke up the years. And in each division
19:17
Speaker 4: there was different rules. And like I grew a beard
19:21
Speaker 4: and refused to shave, but when I was in Jaiker
19:23
Speaker 4: they allowed that, so therefore I didn't get punished for
19:26
Speaker 4: having the beard. When I'd come back to other divisions,
19:29
Speaker 4: I'd start losing remission and have to do extra jail
19:32
Speaker 4: because I'd refuse to shave.
19:33
Speaker 3: So even for me being having a beard.
19:36
Speaker 4: And it wasn't costing me technically, I lost six months
19:40
Speaker 4: or did extra six months jail in pantries because I
19:43
Speaker 4: had a beard, but I wasn't being punished in.
19:45
Speaker 2: You've got it today, as I haven't a lifetime.
19:48
Speaker 3: I haven't shoved it since nineteen eighty three.
19:50
Speaker 2: Right there you go.
19:51
Speaker 1: So there were some very bad guys down and some
19:53
Speaker 1: terrible things happened that must stay with you on some
19:56
Speaker 1: level as trauma. For instance, when Alex test Marcus killed
19:59
Speaker 1: Barry Quinn, what happened on that day.
20:02
Speaker 4: Well, look, nothing happens. You can't one person if you
20:06
Speaker 4: want to, like I spend enough time here to realize
20:09
Speaker 4: that if you do your thing and don't interfere with
20:12
Speaker 4: other people, and if their normal person, they'll allow you
20:16
Speaker 4: to do that.
20:16
Speaker 3: And you say you stay over there, I'll stay over here.
20:19
Speaker 4: I didn't come here to have an ego problem with
20:22
Speaker 4: you or to take your business away or whatever you
20:25
Speaker 4: think is your business. Barry was antagonizing Alex, so I
20:30
Speaker 4: don't blame Alex. If you antagonize people, they react, And
20:34
Speaker 4: it's as simple as that. He burned him to death,
20:38
Speaker 4: and there was a pretty grizzly death.
20:40
Speaker 1: The way he did it though was I think I
20:42
Speaker 1: had an impact on everybody.
20:43
Speaker 2: Well what actually happened.
20:44
Speaker 4: It didn't have an impact on me because I just think, well,
20:47
Speaker 4: you know, that was an individual style of murder. What
20:50
Speaker 4: he did was he smeared leather working glue on a
20:54
Speaker 4: big plastic bag and then pulled it over Barry from
20:56
Speaker 4: behind and flick matches at him.
20:59
Speaker 3: It was a grizzly death.
21:00
Speaker 4: And I've heard a lot of comments from the screws
21:02
Speaker 4: that helped him be moved out of the jail. Well,
21:06
Speaker 4: he certainly had no chance of living. But the way
21:09
Speaker 4: I look at it is all just part of it.
21:11
Speaker 4: It's like, see some people talk about the brutality of
21:15
Speaker 4: jail and even in Jiker. Yeah, I was very violent,
21:17
Speaker 4: and you know, I'd stop people killing each other in
21:20
Speaker 4: Jiker and said I don't do this.
21:22
Speaker 3: You'll never get out of this section if you do
21:24
Speaker 3: this and do that. So I was usually pretty common sense.
21:27
Speaker 4: But the reality is and this is why I look
21:29
Speaker 4: at it now when I look back the people complaining
21:32
Speaker 4: about Jike or even Hashia Vision, what were they doing
21:35
Speaker 4: to people on the outside, But when they get to
21:37
Speaker 4: jail they want to be left alone. But we were
21:40
Speaker 4: put in there because we were being brutal to people,
21:43
Speaker 4: or taking advantage of people, or robbing banks or whatever.
21:47
Speaker 4: So I just see that I don't really have a
21:49
Speaker 4: complain about it. That you can't do stuff to people
21:52
Speaker 4: on the outside then complain about how you get treated and.
21:56
Speaker 2: That's a massive rationalization.
21:58
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean there was an awful brutal murder,
22:00
Speaker 1: which I think you have to be.
22:01
Speaker 2: You have to develop a thicker skin.
22:03
Speaker 1: I think when you're in there, violent person, but you're
22:06
Speaker 1: experiencing this violence in this very sterile, unreal environment.
22:10
Speaker 4: Well it's just black and white. It's like, there's no
22:13
Speaker 4: use stressing about it. It happens.
22:15
Speaker 3: But the reality is that if you carry it or
22:19
Speaker 3: you're worry about it.
22:20
Speaker 4: I've always been a believer in your handle what happens
22:23
Speaker 4: to today, when it happens and you just do your best.
22:26
Speaker 2: Is that an attitude born of being in jail? Do
22:29
Speaker 2: you think that you can't control what's happening tomorrow? You
22:32
Speaker 2: got to think about today.
22:34
Speaker 3: I think the first thing I realized is a pretty
22:36
Speaker 3: violent place.
22:37
Speaker 4: And I've said many times my biggest fear was actually
22:40
Speaker 4: having to defend myself and perhaps even killing somebody to
22:44
Speaker 4: stay alive, and that hopefully it would be self defense
22:47
Speaker 4: and I wouldn't be back in jail for another ten
22:50
Speaker 4: or fifteen years. But so I just had this mindset
22:54
Speaker 4: every morning, be ready the moment the door opens, be
22:58
Speaker 4: ready for whatever is about to happen. Be at the
23:00
Speaker 4: screws or be a prisoners, and there were prisoners out
23:03
Speaker 4: would running on people the moment they're doing and while
23:05
Speaker 4: they're still in bed and stab them and do all
23:08
Speaker 4: sorts of things. Even friends over twenty dollars drug deals
23:10
Speaker 4: would stab each other. So my whole attitude. And then
23:13
Speaker 4: I started pumping iron and working out and saying, well,
23:16
Speaker 4: if you want to take me on, you're going to
23:19
Speaker 4: have to go pretty hard and as simple as that.
23:21
Speaker 4: And so I just had this real attitude of survival.
23:25
Speaker 4: But I even have it in my life every day.
23:28
Speaker 4: Right even when I got out of jail, I wouldn't
23:29
Speaker 4: go to a pub because you go to a pub.
23:32
Speaker 4: I've worked in the city building things in the city,
23:34
Speaker 4: and some of the boys would be hanging around a
23:36
Speaker 4: city at three and four in the morning. I go,
23:38
Speaker 4: that's how you get into trouble. So be active about
23:41
Speaker 4: looking after yourself.
23:43
Speaker 1: In that so called tomb of violence that you called joker. Joker, Yep,
23:47
Speaker 1: how relevant was that attitude?
23:50
Speaker 4: Absolutely? Because you don't like even we were in groups
23:53
Speaker 4: of six, say in a section, you'd have people that
23:56
Speaker 4: would end up just annoying you because they were nobodies.
24:00
Speaker 4: But started to think that they were tough people, and
24:04
Speaker 4: they become annoying.
24:05
Speaker 3: And I won't mention the name, but.
24:06
Speaker 4: A very heavy guy one day was going to kill
24:08
Speaker 4: somebody and it was just because this idiot was annoying
24:12
Speaker 4: him all the time, because you're trying. And I actually
24:15
Speaker 4: talked to this heavy go look it's not worth it.
24:19
Speaker 4: Three days later I wanted to do him because he
24:22
Speaker 4: was now annoying me. And it was like a domestic
24:25
Speaker 4: murderer would spend six seven years in pantries, and they
24:29
Speaker 4: started to believe they were criminals, not domestic murderers, and
24:33
Speaker 4: that they had some sort of pull in the in
24:36
Speaker 4: the world of violence, and they had been drunk and
24:39
Speaker 4: killed a girlfriend or something. All of a sudden, they're
24:40
Speaker 4: running around as if they were big violent heroes, and
24:43
Speaker 4: they were all trying to build themselves up this ego
24:46
Speaker 4: ladder and it's a horrific place, but you learn a
24:49
Speaker 4: lot from that, So you just have to be prepared.
24:53
Speaker 3: You always have to be prepared.
24:55
Speaker 1: So the psychological pressure came on people in Dayker Jayker,
25:01
Speaker 1: and people called it crushing. And as things went on,
25:05
Speaker 1: we saw prisoners becoming restive, leading up, of course to
25:10
Speaker 1: the famous fire in October nineteen eighty seven. Your experience
25:14
Speaker 1: was a bit different, but you saw others who were
25:16
Speaker 1: battling with the lack of human connection, this type of thing.
25:20
Speaker 3: And then yeah, absolutely, and I sort of understand it.
25:23
Speaker 4: But it's funny how you mentioned in the eighty seven
25:25
Speaker 4: fires Robbie Right and all the boys, and that wasn't
25:28
Speaker 4: what people think that was. I know a lot more
25:32
Speaker 4: about that because I was did time with Jimmy loved
25:34
Speaker 4: It and Robbie Right in my early days at Jiker,
25:37
Speaker 4: And that was a protest to try and get moved
25:39
Speaker 4: out of Jiker, to hate division because it might be
25:42
Speaker 4: easier to escape as symbols that there's a lot of
25:45
Speaker 4: things that go on that take many years to bring
25:47
Speaker 4: about their plan or the situations changed Classo Knox the
25:51
Speaker 4: back classification says where you can be housed in the jail.
25:54
Speaker 4: So that's not what people think. I was a bit
25:57
Speaker 4: dirty on Robbie because he got four other people killed with.
26:00
Speaker 2: Him, because Robbie was the ringleader of it.
26:02
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Robbie had look Robbie who was Robbie.
26:05
Speaker 2: By the way, Robbie.
26:06
Speaker 4: Wright and Paul Hay killed a prostitute in nineteen seventy eight,
26:11
Speaker 4: I think down in Sint Kilda.
26:13
Speaker 3: But they also shot the six year old child that
26:15
Speaker 3: was in the car as well, and Robbie wasn't liked.
26:18
Speaker 4: And Robbie said to me one day, he said, most
26:20
Speaker 4: prisoners don't like me, because Robbie was going to take
26:22
Speaker 4: hostages from our visit area.
26:24
Speaker 3: So he got moved to high security for that the
26:26
Speaker 3: visit there in the jail. Yes, so, And.
26:28
Speaker 4: He said to me one day, he said, Doggie, you
26:30
Speaker 4: realized a lot of people don't like me. I said, yeah,
26:32
Speaker 4: I know that. And he actually taught me something. He said,
26:36
Speaker 4: my mum loves me, and I love my mum. And
26:39
Speaker 4: I went, that's a fair call, because in a strange way,
26:43
Speaker 4: we're criminals, but we're not criminals twenty four hours a day,
26:46
Speaker 4: and we're not criminals to the people that we love.
26:49
Speaker 4: And we might be as gentle as a lamb to
26:51
Speaker 4: the people that we love, but violent.
26:54
Speaker 3: To everybody else.
26:55
Speaker 4: So I saw a lot of this where the brutality
26:58
Speaker 4: and everything was part of their lives. But there were
27:01
Speaker 4: so many talented people that I met in jail that
27:04
Speaker 4: were really nice bloke to me because they weren't trying
27:09
Speaker 4: to be violent towards me, or they weren't trying to
27:11
Speaker 4: rip me off.
27:12
Speaker 3: So I saw the human side of even the worst people.
27:17
Speaker 1: So Robbie's there, he's the ring leader. As you say,
27:20
Speaker 1: he wants to get moved out of Jager because it's
27:22
Speaker 1: easier to escape.
27:23
Speaker 2: Yep, I mean yeah. And there was Jimmy Lufton yep.
27:26
Speaker 1: Arthur Gallagher, that's right, Dave McCauley mcgauley mcgauley, and Ricky Morris.
27:32
Speaker 1: Ricky Morris and Jimmy Lufton obviously was well known. He
27:36
Speaker 1: was Choppers made who stabs him in the film and
27:38
Speaker 1: he tried to escape.
27:39
Speaker 3: From him in the film. But he didn't stab him
27:41
Speaker 3: in real life.
27:41
Speaker 1: He didn't say in real life exactly. No, actually did
27:43
Speaker 1: he did stab him?
27:44
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but not that time, not that time? Who did?
27:46
Speaker 2: Forget the film? Forget the film. That's a shocker.
27:49
Speaker 1: But so their followers to Robbie, right, yes, right, So
27:53
Speaker 1: what was his planet?
27:54
Speaker 4: Look, I don't know that. I hadn't seen him for
27:56
Speaker 4: about three years at that time. But there's always a plan,
28:00
Speaker 4: you know, if you can't get what you want, you
28:02
Speaker 4: come up with some way to try and manipulate system
28:05
Speaker 4: to do what you want the system to do. So
28:08
Speaker 4: by maybe getting Jaika closed out or even move them
28:12
Speaker 4: out for a while, might give him an opportunity. For
28:14
Speaker 4: all I know, his final thing might have been, they
28:17
Speaker 4: will take us to court and charge us for the arson,
28:21
Speaker 4: and we'll get somebody to try and hijack us from
28:23
Speaker 4: the court.
28:24
Speaker 3: There will always be a plant. Things are not done
28:27
Speaker 3: for nothing, right.
28:28
Speaker 1: So their plan as it was, was to take their
28:32
Speaker 1: mattresses another material yep, and pile it against the.
28:36
Speaker 3: Door and hold the door shut with them. I believe with.
28:39
Speaker 2: Tennis from their side, we'll do it again.
28:41
Speaker 1: So their plan was to put the mattresses against the
28:44
Speaker 1: door and put a tennis net around there to prevent
28:47
Speaker 1: the screws getting in.
28:49
Speaker 4: And where they died is quite bad really, because what
28:53
Speaker 4: they did they got it wrong.
28:55
Speaker 3: If you're in a fire in a major building.
28:58
Speaker 4: If you put a hose through next to the toilet
29:02
Speaker 4: where it goes into the wall through the rubber, that
29:04
Speaker 4: will not work. You're supposed to put the hose down
29:07
Speaker 4: the s bend of the toilet because on the other
29:10
Speaker 4: side of the s bind of the toilet is air.
29:12
Speaker 4: It might be not nice air, but there is air
29:15
Speaker 4: in the pipe because it's not full of human remains.
29:19
Speaker 4: It's actually a gap between where the next lot of
29:22
Speaker 4: water is. So they put the hoses they were breathing.
29:25
Speaker 4: They got garden hose and they put it down to
29:30
Speaker 4: underneath the building.
29:31
Speaker 3: And what they didn't realize was it was recycled air.
29:35
Speaker 4: So the fumes and the smoke was going underneath the
29:38
Speaker 4: jiker as well, and they were breathing that they had
29:41
Speaker 4: to put their hoses in the s bend. They would
29:43
Speaker 4: still be alive today because they were aphixiated, not burnt.
29:48
Speaker 1: Correct, and others were injured as well in this situation.
29:53
Speaker 4: I'm not really certain about that because I wasn't Injurc
29:55
Speaker 4: at the time. I just know a reason we'rebout, and
29:58
Speaker 4: I also know the mechanics of what was going on,
30:00
Speaker 4: and also their move was obviously the screws were actually
30:04
Speaker 4: in as much much trouble as they were because they're
30:06
Speaker 4: not allowed to move as well, and they couldn't get in.
30:09
Speaker 4: But look what happened. Boys like Robbie right and even myself.
30:14
Speaker 4: What we do We learn to manipulate the screws to
30:17
Speaker 4: do something we want them to do. Over a long
30:19
Speaker 4: period of time. Even when Robbie writes and they actually
30:22
Speaker 4: escape from jiker, they set up one guy doing leatherwork,
30:27
Speaker 4: so the smell of the leather work glue. They said,
30:29
Speaker 4: we keep one of the doors slightly open, and they
30:33
Speaker 4: crawled past the screws because the screws had windows starting
30:36
Speaker 4: at about twelve hundred, so they crawled past. So you
30:40
Speaker 4: spend maybe two or three months getting you screws used
30:44
Speaker 4: to your new mo where they do that every day,
30:47
Speaker 4: and then one day you hit them. So look, what
30:50
Speaker 4: people don't realize is that the jail is full of
30:53
Speaker 4: people who know how to plan, plot, and spend a
30:56
Speaker 4: lot of time working out how to get something to happen.
30:59
Speaker 3: And Robbie.
31:01
Speaker 4: I liked Robbie even though he was an evil character,
31:04
Speaker 4: and you know, we're all evil, but he knew how
31:07
Speaker 4: to gather people. People followed him for some reason. He
31:09
Speaker 4: had that sort of appealed to people, not on me
31:12
Speaker 4: I had, you know, I just saw straight through it
31:14
Speaker 4: straight away. But a lot of the guys that wanted
31:16
Speaker 4: to be somebody wanted to hang into a group, and
31:19
Speaker 4: he would get followers and get people stabbed all around.
31:22
Speaker 1: The jail, right, So that the issues that you spoke
31:24
Speaker 1: about in the early part of the interview regarding the
31:27
Speaker 1: fact that screws couldn't get to people was critical in
31:32
Speaker 1: the outcome of the Jaker Jacker fire.
31:34
Speaker 4: Absolutely because they tied there's bars on the doors up
31:38
Speaker 4: were it was glass and then also bars. Now if
31:42
Speaker 4: you are tying the tennis nets on the other side,
31:45
Speaker 4: how can they cut them so that would stop the
31:49
Speaker 4: sliding doors? All buildings, even in a jail's probably got
31:52
Speaker 4: a certain amount of resistance so nobody gets trapped in
31:54
Speaker 4: the door. Now, obviously the tying the doors stopped the
31:58
Speaker 4: resistance and all these sort of things. So it's like,
32:02
Speaker 4: but the sad thing is whatever their plan really was
32:05
Speaker 4: at the end brought about their demise, which I was
32:08
Speaker 4: very angry at that five guys went for some plan
32:13
Speaker 4: that was got to do with one real person.
32:16
Speaker 1: Didn't quite they didn't quite contingency plan properly.
32:20
Speaker 2: They got it wrong.
32:21
Speaker 3: They got it wrong.
32:22
Speaker 4: But then look, the same thing is, if you've got
32:24
Speaker 4: it's like anything you do in the world, if you've
32:26
Speaker 4: got a little bit of knowledge, sometimes that.
32:29
Speaker 3: Can be very dangerous. And they had a little bit
32:30
Speaker 3: of knowledge.
32:31
Speaker 4: They thought they were safe by being able to breathe,
32:34
Speaker 4: and they weren't able to and heaven knows, maybe they
32:39
Speaker 4: were hoping to be taken to hospital. None of us
32:42
Speaker 4: will ever know, because even though I know some of
32:44
Speaker 4: the stuff from my talk, so we had a lot
32:47
Speaker 4: of talks with Robbie and knows it were the years
32:49
Speaker 4: I was there, and so I knew roughly his ideologies
32:52
Speaker 4: of how to do things, but his final plan.
32:55
Speaker 3: I don't know what was the.
32:57
Speaker 1: Impact on the rest of the jail population. When did
33:00
Speaker 1: you first hear about the fire.
33:01
Speaker 4: I don't think there's any nobody really cares. Really, the
33:06
Speaker 4: only people that would care about that. Hmmm, I'm trying
33:09
Speaker 4: to think. No, I don't think anybody really cares if
33:11
Speaker 4: another prisoner dies or whatever. If there's involvement from the system, maybe,
33:16
Speaker 4: But they do that, they die, you know, Like most
33:19
Speaker 4: of the prisoners I knew from those days are all
33:21
Speaker 4: dead now.
33:21
Speaker 3: So should I be worried about them?
33:23
Speaker 4: They all get still into their drugs or do this
33:25
Speaker 4: or do that now it's a shortened lifestyle, and I
33:29
Speaker 4: don't think anybody was that worried. The only people that
33:32
Speaker 4: might have been worried is the ones that enjoyed being
33:33
Speaker 4: a hiker and now they'll probably move back to ACE Division.
33:37
Speaker 3: Right, because Ace Division was on its way out then, yeah,
33:39
Speaker 3: and that was about the end of my era.
33:41
Speaker 4: And then they started opening those new jails, so a
33:44
Speaker 4: lot of those guys there probably moved to different jails,
33:46
Speaker 4: like the Bluey Brazels and people like that. So that
33:49
Speaker 4: was the end of let's say that the way even
33:54
Speaker 4: because you would know the name Stan Taylor ended up
33:57
Speaker 4: in CA.
33:57
Speaker 3: Division, which was Jiker.
33:59
Speaker 4: So there was still some high security prisoners there, but
34:02
Speaker 4: most of it was opened up with different doors and
34:06
Speaker 4: a lot of it was to do more with protection,
34:09
Speaker 4: but there would have been some prisoners still there.
34:11
Speaker 3: They might have kept one or two units for ice security.
34:13
Speaker 1: So they took away all the automatic, whizbang futuristic stuff
34:17
Speaker 1: and went back.
34:18
Speaker 2: To a pretty much a normal situation.
34:20
Speaker 4: Even put double bunks in the cells, which on the
34:23
Speaker 4: Chopper movie. I think in the Chopper movie he's actually
34:26
Speaker 4: in a Jiker cell with a double bunk, which was
34:29
Speaker 4: not the way it was when it was high security.
34:31
Speaker 2: I think that was the last scene of the film,
34:32
Speaker 2: wasn't it.
34:33
Speaker 1: I think it was watching himself on television and the
34:35
Speaker 1: screws that they're with him.
34:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's about that.
34:38
Speaker 3: That's an interesting thing to have the screws in your cell,
34:40
Speaker 3: isn't it.
34:41
Speaker 2: It is.
34:42
Speaker 1: That's another story. So what do you think the legacy
34:45
Speaker 1: of Jaker Jiker was. Obviously we've seen now prisons like
34:48
Speaker 1: Barwin come along. They've got the ultra high tech Banksia, Mela,
34:53
Speaker 1: Luka Acacia.
34:55
Speaker 2: But even then, when Maddie.
34:57
Speaker 1: Johnson kills Carl Williams, the screws don't get there in time.
35:01
Speaker 2: Yep.
35:01
Speaker 1: All this technology doesn't necessarily keep people safe.
35:04
Speaker 3: No, but look in a strange way, that's not.
35:08
Speaker 4: Sometimes even in Jaiker and sometimes in hate divisions, sometimes
35:12
Speaker 4: anywhere and Pintry the old entries, the screws would know
35:16
Speaker 4: that people are at risk and they didn't care because they.
35:19
Speaker 3: Might not like that particular prisoner.
35:21
Speaker 4: And let's face it, the rumors are that the prisoners
35:24
Speaker 4: were allowed to be attacked by certain other prisoners in
35:27
Speaker 4: Age division because the rumor goes that when the Royal
35:31
Speaker 4: Commission stopped the violence and Hate division, they went, well,
35:34
Speaker 4: we can use prisoners to do the violence for us,
35:37
Speaker 4: which still happens in jails today. Jails are run by
35:41
Speaker 4: manipulation of the prisoners against prisoners. It was then we
35:45
Speaker 4: always will be like you can go right through the
35:47
Speaker 4: history of pantries. In the period that I was there,
35:50
Speaker 4: the twelve years violence, power was given to prisoners in
35:55
Speaker 4: every section of the jail by the governors. The first
35:59
Speaker 4: time I went to a division. Shortly after I went
36:02
Speaker 4: to jail, basically the most powerful prison in a division
36:06
Speaker 4: was Keith Riary, a well known child killer and sex offender.
36:12
Speaker 4: He was given the power of the drama group. And
36:14
Speaker 4: then before I left a division, just shortly before I
36:18
Speaker 4: left a division, there was a bomb goo because he
36:21
Speaker 4: got a division run by a bloke with all the
36:24
Speaker 4: power of the drama group. So he was given all
36:26
Speaker 4: this power by the governor because it made the governor
36:28
Speaker 4: look good, because it was the money from the drama
36:30
Speaker 4: group where people coming in to see the drama group
36:33
Speaker 4: perform at nighttime went to charities. Makes a prison look good.
36:37
Speaker 4: So he has power.
36:40
Speaker 2: You went to a.
36:40
Speaker 4: Division, if you didn't conform to what the so called
36:45
Speaker 4: hierarchy prisoners, you were in trouble and the bomb went
36:51
Speaker 4: off from because there was a few boys from v
36:53
Speaker 4: division and it come to a division.
36:55
Speaker 3: So but that is just an example of all jails
36:59
Speaker 3: are run via power to prisoners.
37:03
Speaker 1: Because the prisoners are the community there. There has to
37:06
Speaker 1: be some acquiescence at some level from the inmates.
37:09
Speaker 4: And sometimes it's good because sometimes if somebody gets raped,
37:13
Speaker 4: the prisoners will retaliate against the people that do that,
37:18
Speaker 4: So sometimes it works. But I've been told even the
37:21
Speaker 4: prisoners today are being still run by that system, especially
37:26
Speaker 4: in the private system.
37:27
Speaker 2: I think it's human nature.
37:29
Speaker 1: In conclusion, Dug Morgan, there was a desire with h
37:32
Speaker 1: Division and Jaker Joker to find a solution to recalciprant
37:39
Speaker 1: misbehaving prisoners. Do you think there is a better way?
37:44
Speaker 1: Were these that are all successful in your experience?
37:48
Speaker 2: Your opinion?
37:49
Speaker 3: No, you never look.
37:50
Speaker 4: I was going out to Ravenhall Prison before talking to
37:53
Speaker 4: one hundred prisoners of a time about getting jobs and
37:56
Speaker 4: changing their lifestyle with work exposure we're doing out there,
37:59
Speaker 4: and I was talking to the boys away from the
38:02
Speaker 4: other people and go, what's going on here?
38:04
Speaker 3: And it's still run and it's still the same.
38:09
Speaker 2: Look.
38:09
Speaker 3: If you take fifty prisoners are on protection and none
38:13
Speaker 3: of them are real violent. Out of fifty, there's.
38:16
Speaker 4: Some that will go to the top and stand over
38:18
Speaker 4: the others who were less aggressive. So if you take
38:23
Speaker 4: any amount of prisoners and put them in a place,
38:25
Speaker 4: you'll have violence because you'll always have people who want
38:28
Speaker 4: to be the top person. And I actually give people
38:31
Speaker 4: an example of that. I think it was New Orleans
38:35
Speaker 4: when there was floods or something like thirty years ago
38:37
Speaker 4: twenty years ago, and there was a situation where people
38:40
Speaker 4: were being housed in a big gymnasium or a sports stadium.
38:44
Speaker 4: Within a few days, gangs were forming and raping people
38:49
Speaker 4: because men humans do this. If there's no authority to
38:55
Speaker 4: look after the general population, the violent people will take over.
39:00
Speaker 4: And jails are exactly that. There will always people that
39:03
Speaker 4: will take over try to be the person that's manipulating
39:07
Speaker 4: or in charge or running the show, and so you'll
39:10
Speaker 4: always have trouble. You cannot stop that. You can design everything.
39:14
Speaker 4: You put five people together.
39:16
Speaker 3: And somebody will try and stand over the fourth person.
39:19
Speaker 1: I think what we've seen in recent years is the
39:21
Speaker 1: recognition that a tougher, more punitive doesn't work.
39:26
Speaker 2: In fact, the feeling that people's human nature. We're seeing
39:29
Speaker 2: moves like giving.
39:30
Speaker 1: Therapy animals to inmates, involving them in craft and industry,
39:35
Speaker 1: and things and actually not trying to break the humanity.
39:38
Speaker 1: Do you think that's the way forward in an enlightened incarceration.
39:42
Speaker 4: If you like, Sorry, I'm just thinking that there is
39:44
Speaker 4: no way We've had crime since day dot, I will
39:49
Speaker 4: have crime and violence till the day dot.
39:51
Speaker 3: In the future.
39:52
Speaker 4: What I'd like to think is we can stop the
39:56
Speaker 4: aggression towards people in their houses. Look, crime evolves, and
40:01
Speaker 4: I don't know where it's going next, but if you
40:03
Speaker 4: went back one hundred years a certain type of crime,
40:06
Speaker 4: then it became a crime, let's say in the forties
40:09
Speaker 4: fifty sixties, where people would break into factories and take
40:12
Speaker 4: the safe. And then we had alarm systems, so then
40:15
Speaker 4: we evolved to robberies and banks. And then even maybe
40:19
Speaker 4: ten twenty years ago, we were having people hit over
40:22
Speaker 4: the head at eighty ms. So what happens is crime evolves.
40:26
Speaker 4: Now we've got the machete boys, so maybe in five
40:29
Speaker 4: years or ten years time, they will be going and
40:31
Speaker 4: there'll be a different type of crime running around. That's
40:32
Speaker 4: annoying us because it just keeps evolving. Because it's opportunists
40:38
Speaker 4: that can't do this.
40:40
Speaker 3: Like myself. I was a bank robber. I didn't know
40:42
Speaker 3: how to open a safe.
40:44
Speaker 4: If I could open a safe, I would have preferred
40:46
Speaker 4: to go in at nighttime and open a safe.
40:48
Speaker 1: But what you're really saying is that forget about what
40:51
Speaker 1: happens in jails, forget about all the advances, forget about
40:54
Speaker 1: thinking Jaiker Jaker would be the answer.
40:56
Speaker 2: Or h division was the answer.
40:58
Speaker 1: It's human nature and you're always gonna have problems with
41:01
Speaker 1: people in jail.
41:02
Speaker 4: Well, I'll put it back on me the six million
41:05
Speaker 4: people in Victoria. Do you really think six million people
41:08
Speaker 4: love Doug Morgan because he went straight? Probably ninety nine
41:12
Speaker 4: point five percent still think I must comebay.
41:15
Speaker 3: And I'm good with that.
41:16
Speaker 4: I know that I've done my best to change my
41:18
Speaker 4: life and do all that. But the general population don't
41:21
Speaker 4: give us stuff. And there's a small window that we
41:25
Speaker 4: all keep focusing on, Oh, we've got to do this,
41:27
Speaker 4: We're going to do that. No, Look, all we've got
41:30
Speaker 4: to do is try and make ourselves safe at nighttime.
41:34
Speaker 4: And the reality is people can look after theirselves. And
41:37
Speaker 4: I'm a bigger at for telling my friends how you
41:41
Speaker 4: make your house safer so it won't be you. They'll
41:44
Speaker 4: go to the next car or the next BMW and
41:47
Speaker 4: even friends of mine. I've showed him where to put
41:49
Speaker 4: lighting at nighttime so that your house will not be
41:52
Speaker 4: the one that's hit.
41:53
Speaker 1: In conclusion, if you have to spend your whole sentence
41:57
Speaker 1: in h division or dagger dagget, which would it have been.
42:00
Speaker 4: I'd like to move around a bit. I'm a bit
42:02
Speaker 4: of a country, but I'd like to move around. But
42:05
Speaker 4: to me, was the only thing I missed when I
42:07
Speaker 4: was in Jiker was playing football. But I played tennis
42:10
Speaker 4: all day. I pumped or not iron I used my
42:13
Speaker 4: own body way to train. I could run laps all
42:16
Speaker 4: day and had a cleaner environment. I even liked the
42:18
Speaker 4: fact that at a washing machine. So we're all different.
42:22
Speaker 4: So to me, I would rather spend my time in Jiker.
42:25
Speaker 4: But the new jails or I haven't been inside the
42:28
Speaker 4: actual jail parts of them. I've been at Raven Hall,
42:30
Speaker 4: but only in the gymnasium when I was talking the prisoners.
42:33
Speaker 4: I'll probably pick Raven Hall aver Jaiker.
42:35
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, believe it. Thanks for your time, mate,
42:37
Speaker 1: appreciate it. That was Doug Morgan on his memories of
42:45
Speaker 1: Jaiker Jiker. While the unit failed, elements of its design
42:49
Speaker 1: have been incorporated into modern prisons, but as Doug says,
42:52
Speaker 1: the spirit of rebellion amongst inmates cannot be quelled by
42:56
Speaker 1: architecture alone. If you want to report a crime, please
42:59
Speaker 1: call Crime Stoppers on one age hundred, triple three, triple zero. Well,
43:03
Speaker 1: you can always email me at Adams and writer at
43:06
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. This has been Adam Shann for Real Crime.
43:09
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
43:17
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43:21
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