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Ref's Need Love Too · UNCOACHED

• Welcome to Uncoached, a podcast for volunteer coaches and parents figuring out youth sports as we go. Each episode we keep things simple, five questions to talk about practical insights that you can actually use with your athletes. I'm very excited about my guest today. His name is David Gerson, otherwise known on social media as the voice of referees and his channels Refs Need Love Too. Thanks for being here, David. As a soccer coach myself, every time you post something, some knowledge out there, I pay a lot of attention. I love what you're doing. You're being that voice for officials who, let's be honest, they take a lot of heat at any level of organized sport, and I was just wanting to get you on to help echo some of the good positive vibes that you're putting out there f- on, on the side of the official, on, on the side of the referee. So if you'd do me a, a big favor and just tell me a little bit about your background and what led you to create Refs Need Love Too. Yeah, happy to Brad, and I'm thrilled to be here. First and foremost, I would just say we are all in this together, right? So you... There is no ref, there is no game, but if there is no coach, you know, or players, or the parents willing to get their kids to the game, there's no game. And so we have to come together to create a positive, supportive environment For the kids together. It's-- the referees are not an externality. The coaches are not a complete externality. You know, the parents, we're all in on one team when it comes to our kids, and engaging them in a fun team-based sport, whatever the sport may be. If it's baseball, if it's American football, if it's soccer, hockey, whatever, there are so many wonderful benefits that come from that, and we need to work together to create the right environment for those kids to develop and grow. That's the first thing. Secondly, my approach to this, you know, I have a l- a little bit of an advantage over many young social media creators out there. I spent about twenty-seven years as a corporate sales trainer, marketer, product developer for big corporate entities, and my last big corporate job was an eleven billion dollar company with over fifty thousand employees, and I'm running brand, and I'm running PR and social media and marketing. So I have a bit of a different approach. Y-yes, my channel started as a complete joke and just a bit of a creative outlet for me. Honestly, I was, you know, approaching fifty years old and really starting to you know, just find myself to be creatively stifled and needed an outlet. And social media provided that for me, but it's quickly, I mean, you say overnight success, four years in the making. But it went from just me, you know, kinda joking around, having fun in my basement to all of a sudden creating a platform and community, you know, that's known throughout the world. Yesterday I posted a video and I guess I could share this here, but literally, you know, one of the most decorated referees in the world who's officiated at three World Cups and four Olympics, you know, texted me and was like, "Great job Oh, video. You're spot on." I love that So I've got, you know, pro refs all around the world, parents, players, coaches, you know, who are now looking to me to do a couple things. Number one, you know, they enjoy see the human side of a referee, which they really haven't been able to see before historically. They've always been you know, separated from everyone. Don't speak to the Right profile, never explain any decisions. And so they love that they can have a human perspective of what it's like being a referee. But then they also want a layman, you know, as much as I am a layman, I've got eleven years of officiating experience now as a soccer ref. But, you know, helping people understand the call, not only what happened, like literally here's what happened, but here are the considerations that a referee has to go through when making those decisions. And I do this for, you know, like yesterday with a World Cup game, but I also do this for U8 Right. Right Yes those clips in my profile because I want peop- 'cause that's what most people deal with, you know? They're, you know, they're yelling about handball in a U10, recreational Yeah like that, and I try and help them understand. It's yeah, it's not a handball offense. Let's talk about Right what the referee is, you know, thinking about here, and here's the guidance we've been given. So it's yeah, it's been a wild ride. I'm having a lot of fun and you know, I can't wait to see where else it takes No, that's fantastic, and I hope, I hope you just keep growing, because I think your voice is needed. I mean, I, a- as a coach, right, I, on the sidelines I hear offsides, you know, complaints all the time. That's gotta be one of the bigger ones. You know, I won't put you on the spot, but that's gotta be one of the bigger ones, along with the handball situations. But you providing that education I think is super needed, so it's, it's fantastic that you're filling this gap area that a- I think a lot of us have and need. And you s- you spend a lot of time educating people about referees, like you were talking about, right? Behind the scenes and you're putting a little personality to, to the referee. What's some of the biggest mis- or, or maybe the biggest misconception parents and coaches have about how officials are making decisions during a game? Wow. Let me go back to the beginning of that question about the h- human side of being a referee, that these people are all, you know, human beings Of course. Yes with, and children and brothers and sisters and cousins and uncles and aunts. A- and especially when you talk about recreational soccer or recreational sports or whatever the sport is that they're playing, these are people in your community, making millions of dollars. They're not making hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, every They're not making hundreds of dollars. You know what I mean? mean, seriously, after you buy all the equipment and all the certifications and all the things that you need to do, it's y- you're barely making any money to compensate you for your time, you know, the food you gotta eat when you're there, the gas you gotta get there, or the uniform, all that kind of stuff. You know, they are just doing the best they possibly can with very little training at the local level. At the professional level, yes, these people are compensated, but let me tell you, this is an outrageously difficult life. You don't get to be on television officiating matches if you have not already toiled for 15 years, okay, for next to no money. there's only about five or six out of the who work in pro or professional referee associ- organization here in the United States who do like our professional matches. Only five or six of them actually do that as a full-time Wow Almost all of them have to supplement their income through some other means possible. It's very difficult to make a buy, especially if you're an assistant referee. You're not always like a the referee in the middle of the pitch. You've got to do many other jobs to get there. And so I just want that to be a thing. It's like these people, you know, they have entered into a life that there is no love, yeah. You know, when they Yeah a match, you know, generally speaking, 50% of the people are apathetic to them, and the other 50% hate them because they Mmhmm whether the referee did a good job, not whether they made good calls, but again, their team loses. Who do we blame the referee. So these people have chosen this very difficult life in service and sacrifice to the game you know, that they love. It is just very difficult. So I try, I really do try to help show that human side that these are, again, people who care, often love the game, you know, as much if not more than anyone else to choose to do Right you They're that passionate about it. And again, if you care about the game in your local community, aside from being a coach, which I think is fantastic, you know, the next best thing, if not equal, is being a referee because let me tell you, a poorly reffed game is a bad experience for everyone. It's bad for the coach, bad for the players, bad for the kids, absolutely. A well-reffed game is a wonderful experience for everyone, and if you care about the future of whatever your sport is, you know, become a referee because, again, a well-reffed game, you're gonna have people who will fall in love with that game, enjoy the experience, and they'll wanna come back and stick with it for a long time. Tell me this. So in, in a lot of our... So outside of club teams that I coach, I also do rec, and in those rec sometimes this is dealing with, like, Catholic schools and things like that, and there's a lot of training that goes on for young refs, right? We've got seventh graders out there, eighth grade kids that are out there reffing sometimes, and I'm talking the games that they're reffing are younger kids, right? Six-year-olds, seven-year-olds, but they're starting to train them a little bit at a young age to, to become a ref. What's, you know, what's some advice? Like, it sounds like it's a grind out there, but, like, what do you love about reffing that you would convey to these young kids that want to ref? First I gotta question the premise of the question, like, they're getting a lot of training? Like, I'd be shocked. Like, getting a lot of training is a rare thing for referees. I mean I would just say aside from some type of community recreational program, like for junior referees where they might be mentoring them, which is wonderful, generally in the United States of America, and I'll just speak to soccer, which is my expertise when you get certified as a referee, you take an online course that anyone can pass with minimal knowledge. You're sitting watching TV one day, and you're just clicking through, and you guess the answers, you'll be fine. And then some states, some, not all, do a three-hour in-person referee course, which by the way, in three hours all you can do is pretty much tell them, you know, "Here's the uniform you need to wear, here's how to do a field inspection, you know, here's how you hold the flag, and this is what the flag's supposed to look Right You don't get into foul recognition. You don't talk about what a handball decision is. You don't talk about deliberate play and offside. You don't, you don't talk about any of those things, and then you're certified, and then you're That's tough. Yeah There's, there's almost... n- there's zero, zero, zero investment from, Georgia Soccer or, you know, my state or US Soccer on any additional training. Anything that happens beyond that is usually club-based, and it's few and far between. So I just wanna say that right Yeah. There is almost no That's crazy c- compare and contrast that with a team of players. Like at U10, you may have a team who is practicing two or three days a week with a coach. If it's an elite academy, it might be four days a week, plus games on the weekends. So they've got training from, you know, a coach. They're getting practice. The referee, nothing- They've done this online thing on a computer. They've had this very cursory, you know, course that they go to, and then they're thrown to the wolves. there's a big disparity into, training and development that happens for players, and even for coaches I would say, and for referees. So that's the first thing I would say. So the channel that I do and the role that I serve for SoCal Soccer League is just all about education, is trying to fill that gap. But I need parents and I need coaches to understand that your referee, their practice is that U8 game, that U10 game, that U12 game, okay? That is where they learn. And they learn, you know, by seeing different situations play out. It's one thing to see it on TV, but it's another thing when you're the person on the pitch with the whistle and you're in one space on the field and you've gotta make a call. is hard. I mean, I started r- as a soccer referee when I was 40, and still, you know, it's "Is that a foul?" You know, "Is that a deliberate pass back?" You know, "Is that offside?" You know, Yeah it takes a long time. And so we need parents and coaches to, you know, be patient and give these referees time in a positive support environment to see lots of different scenarios and plays so they can start to have the confidence and be able to learn to recognize, you know, different things. What I, a- and that confidence is difficult or patience is difficult, but it's necessary because the lack of training they receive and I think just to build on what you're saying, and what I hear you saying is, you know, let's be lenient in our judgment of these refs in these younger divisions. This isn't you know, a pro soccer game we're watching. This is a U8 game, U9 game. If we wanna have quality reffing when the kids are older and it is more competitive and more intense, right, let's be lenient at these younger levels and let these refs and these young refs learn so that they can build their skill set and provide us a great game when it actually kind of does matter. You know what I mean? You are, y- I, that is so well said, man. I, so I just wanna remind everyone out there that youth sports, okay, is the most important, least important thing. The least important Yeah. okay? Like it is completely meaningless, and don't give me any crap about my kid plays blah blah blah blah league," whatnot. Dude, your kid's nine years Right It does not matter. It does not matter whether they win or lose the game. And I will also say 99 times out of 100, okay, and this is... Like I wish I had some like proper science on this, but for... i've watched thousands of games, man, okay? I've officiated thousands of games. 99 times out of 100 it is the players in the field who determine the outcome of the match, not a Yeah Like you can have a call that might affect an outcome of the game, but I promise you I- if anyone's being intellectually honest and objective, when they watch back the film and they count the 100 missed passes, you know, when they Yeah. the 25 missed Yep when they count the goalkeeper literally letting the ball just go through their legs into the goal, whatnot, and then they wanna complain about one potential, penalty that could've been called by a referee or something like that, it's just please, man. Great focus on, you know, the kids and their development. And that includes the development of those young referees, you know, who do need training and do need feedback, but they don't need it for some biased, coach or biased parent who has, you know, no knowledge of how to be a proper mentor, comes off as someone as a deranged lunatic and scares people away. one reason why we lose referees, and we, and you know, we have a outrageous, 80% turnover rate of our referees, which is a self-fulfilling prophecy of having poor refereeing 'cause you have such high turnover. But the number one reason is abuse from parents, and the number two reason is abuse from coaches, Yeah. I, yeah. It's, it's terrible. I, I, you know, I think everybody that's probably listening or viewing, you know, youth sports has seen this constantly this, this abuse. And, and I mean no offense when I say this, but I literally tell my players, "Let's not even pay attention to the refs." Like, they're, they're just, they're basically part of the field of play, right? Like, let's ignore them. If, if they, if a call doesn't go our way, ignore it and keep playing because that's all part of the game. Other than, you know, a polite thank you for, for the game at the end of the, of the match, right? It's, it's let's ignore them for now and, and just play our game 'cause it's up to us to win or lose this thing Absolutely, and it doesn't help anyone. No about a call is extremely damaging. If you're a player, you know, it's bad. You wanna develop players who are resilient and can immediately get focused on the next Yeah know, if they lose focus and they complain, or they whine, or they're pouting about a call, well, that's not a good thing. I mean, they're letting their team Yeah If you're a coach, okay, and you're complaining about a call, guess what? 99.99% of the time a referee is not going to change a call. Okay? And your yelling at a referee is not going to encourage them to make more calls for you. If anything, you might have a referee who's like, "Dude hope they lose this game." I mean, let's be honest. We're dealing with humans here, okay? Yeah. No one's gonna want to make calls for you, if you're giving them shit. Excuse my language. But I would say as a coach, if you're complaining about calls you're a leader. 100%. a Yes. those And you have to demonstrate the behaviors that you want the kids to have. I mean, I think Emma Hayes, our US women's national team coach just you saw this last Tuesday night, Brazil versus United States, in her comments post-match. It's like, she's like, "I can't control the ref. I can't control the other coaches. What I can control is my behavior. What I can control, you know, is the example I set for my players and the behaviors that I want my players to demonstrate." You know? And that's, and that's what a leader Yeah if you are a parent or you are a coach and you are yelling at the ref, two things. Number one you should expect that the players are gonna do the same thing, 'cause they're gonna emulate your behavior, and now they're gonna have a victim mindset, that the outcome of the game is not based on their behavior, the players, and their ability to execute, and their ability to defend, and their ability to, you know, work hard and all those types of things. They're now gonna think that they're losing or they lost because of a decision, which we all know intellectually, all know if we're being honest with ourselves, is not true. No, it's not. And, and I love your point because the coach definitely sets the tone for the atmosphere on the bench and with the parents. You're spot on. Like, if a coach is, you know, hammering a ref or complaining, then the players feel like they can do it, and then that, you know, that fires up the sideline too. And so it's like i- if, if I could have any, any coach take away something from this, it's monitor your own sideline and your emotions on what's happening, and if you see a parent getting out of line, maybe don't yell at them at that point, but a conversation after the game that that type of behavior is unacceptable, because it's gonna hurt you in the long run Here's what you do. So you set the bar at the beginning of the season. You say, "Hey, Here's what I'm gonna do. Practices, I'm gonna try and teach the kids how I want them to play. You know, whether it's the formation, you know, whether it's certain patterns of play that we wanna do, whether it's certain behaviors that I want them to do on the field. I wanna teach them how to talk to each other, how to think before they r- receive the ball, what they're gonna do with the ball. That's what I'm gonna do in practice. When it comes to games, I'm gonna be quiet while they're playing, 'cause I don't wanna confuse them, and I'm gonna ask you guys not to confuse them either. I don't want you to yell, you know, shoot, pass, clear, whatever, 'cause you're joysticking them, and you're cheating them of learning. Okay? And you're gonna confuse them, because they're hearing you say something when they might see something else they wanna do on the field. Second thing, I will give them instruction at a stoppage of play, but I only want me as the coach to give instruction. If you wanna sign up to be a coach next year, and you wanna coach, then please coach, but I only can have them listening to one person for instruction. thing, if I hear you joysticking your child on the field, yelling at the referee about decisions, or gosh forbid, yelling something disparaging to a child on our team or another Oh, yeah. your kid sits immediately. Great You don't have to yell across the field and tell them to be quiet. You just, next stoppage of play, you sub out little Johnny or little Jill, and they just come sit. Yeah. that's That's it, yeah that, and that is it. And I'm telling you, it doesn't matter who the kid is, if they're the best kid on the team, whatever. You just have them sit. You know, whatever it's for, you know, a half of the game or, you know, for 10 minutes, whatever, the kid comes out and sits, and that's it." And then you just, you know, again, as a reminder, post, you know, practice, you just said, "Hey, a reminder to all parents. Here's the, you know, the, how we're gonna do. You know, what I wanna hear from you as a parent, I wanna hear encouragement. I wanna hear you know, clapping for good plays. If you see, you know, the other team's goalie make a great save, say, 'Great Absolutely you see a 'Great pass. Great idea. Love that.' If you see the kids working hard, 'Love the effort. Great job.' If there's a call that doesn't go your way, say, 'Don't worry about it. Keep your head up. That's right. That's right what we want parents to do at youth sports. I want the parents to be spectators and supporters. I want the coach to be able to coach at the appropriate time, and I want the refs to be able to ref. Okay? And if we can do all of those things, you know, and again, refs gotta, you know, participate too and do the best job they possibly can, but if we can create an environment where all three of those, you know, Yeah. components That's-- functioning Yeah it will be a great experience for the kids on the Yeah, that's, that's what success looks like, I think, for a good youth sport outing. Pro- I mean, any sp- any sport outing. So let's r- let's run an exper- experiment here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you, so I mentioned that we kind of teach to kind of ignore the ref a little bit, and I very, very rarely will challenge or talk to a ref even during a game because it's just happening, and that's, that's what it is. But let's say there's been a couple times where I haven't understood a call, disagreed with a little bit. Here's my approach I'm gonna go through, and I'd like you to tell me if that's a good approach, or maybe you have some tips to how to challenge a, a referee, let's say challenge or, or, like, just talk to about a play. So there's been a couple times where, you know, I've thought there was a flagrant foul or something, something happened, and I just asked the ref, "Hey, what did... what are you seeing there?" So that I know in the future that this is the, this is not the right play, right? So one of my players got completely trucked over in a game, right? And I was like, you know, "What's going on?" He was crying. He was down. So I'm, I'm walking on the field very calm. These, these players happen, right? These boys get super physical. It's, it's soccer, you know. It's, What age group are we dealing so this is U11. U11, right? A lot of emotions on the field, kids crying, you know, they ran into each other. And I just asked the ref, "Hey, you know, what, what are you seeing here so that I can teach these players that this is right or this is wrong?" So basically, my question to you is, is that the right way to approach a ref? Yep. do you have any tips on how to possibly successfully talk to a ref or challenge a call in a game? So the... I wanna, again, the premise, challenge a call, okay? You're never going to get a referee to change a No, never Ever. It's just not, it's not gonna happen. Don't even think about that, especially when we're talking about physical challenges. Like, they're not all of a sudden going to say, "Oh, you're, you know, you're right. I do think it's a Yep It's nah, it's just not gonna happen. I've seen things on procedure, you know, it's hey, you know, I... Like, someone's like, "I think, you know you're awarding an indirect free kick. Should be a direct," or something like that. They're like oh, you're right," you know, 'cause of whatever. Like, procedural things I th- I see things that people might make a change, but no one's gonna change their offside No gonna change a foul call or something like that. So we're not challenging a call. What I would encourage you to do is with the student's heart, and again, people love to help teach. And so, you know, I would say, you know, "Ref, you know, can you help me understand what you saw there?" You Yeah. And, and all. And just like, you know, "H- can you help me understand what you saw, you know, on the... Y- there's no foul, I- okay, I understand, but help me understand why you felt that way." Yeah, and I, yeah to try and see, you know, what they saw there. Because again, so where you are on the field, Brad, is gonna be a completely different angle Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep you could be literally on complete other sides of a play, the referee may say I saw the player, you know, come in, you know, from, you know, the front. You know, they hit the ball, and there was like incidental contact after," whatever. They may have a completely different perspective. And I think that's legit. It may completely look like a foul to you, it may not look like a foul to them, but just try and understand. I've also had, you know, coaches too, you know, who will be upset with me when I call a foul, and they're like, "It's shoulder! He used his shoulder. It's shoulder to shoulder." I'm like, "No, dude, it was shoulder to the back." Yeah. know? It's like, Call a foul?" I was like I saw him put his shoulder through the back." Or, you know, maybe it was shoulder to shoulder, okay? And for me, they used too much force. You know, it's like they still have to have some care for their opponent, so I felt like it, you know, it was too much force. And that might be something too. Like, a referee may say is "Hey, I felt like it was shoulder to shoulder." It was like, know, it's "Okay, I appreciate that. It seemed like there was a lot of force in the challenge." and I and yeah I wouldn't tell someone, "You made the wrong call," because someone's... They're gonna immediately put up a Yep right? You know, now you're having an argument. You just say, "Okay, I appreciate that. Feel like there was a lot of force in the challenge," in a nice calm tone of voice. And then they might think about that and "Yeah, maybe that's right. Maybe I should call a foul on that next time it happens." But if you go in as a student seeking to understand as opposed to trying to challenge and change a call it's gonna work out much better for you. There you go. That's perfect. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal your student's heart comment. I like that 'cause you go in with educational purposes, not for trying to get a call reversed type of goals, right? So again, you know, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear, student is ready, the teacher will appear. And, you know, that's a challenge. Like coaches, they think they have to fight against a referee, you know, to get a call, saying no." If you set up a situation where you're combative, then there's no room to have conversation. There's no room to have dialogue. No one feels comfortable having a conversation. Like, I'm never ever going to talk to a coach who is just trying to yell information at No tr- or, or to challenge me. It's nah, there's only one ref on the field. That's not happening. Like I can't... There can't be 10 refs out here. There's just one, so if you have a legitimate question, I'm happy to give you an answer. And I would, I always say that in my pregame to teams as well. It's "Hey, you know, again, if you have a legitimate question out there, please feel free to ask. Use the same calm tone of voice I'm using with you right now. You know, I got all day for you. What I would say though is I can't stop in the middle of play and explain something, but at the next stoppage of play, like a substitution right or we have a dead ball, if you've got a question, happy to answer." So again, just try and go in with a student's heart, and then you'll find that the referee is gonna be much more open and feel comfortable providing some insight on what they saw and what they called or didn't call. Yeah, such, such good perspective. We touched on this a second ago, but let's talk about not necessarily a, a coach, right, who's challenging a, a, a ref, and I've got experience with this too. There's a couple players on my soccer team kids who automatically throw their hands up if something doesn't go their way, or they chirp a little bit at the ref. And I told you my, my th- my mantra on our team is let's ignore the ref for the most part, right, and just assume that they're part of the field of play. So I cannot stand when I get players that are chirping at the ref, 'cause like you've just gone through, there is nothing positive that comes out of somebody yelling at a ref or complaining to a ref. Right. And so, you know, from your perspective what are some things that coaches can do differently to help get that player under control, you know, when they're maybe losing it? I don't wanna say losing it, but when they're a little bit more vocal on the field, what do you think coaches could do to help that out? Yeah, I mean I, gosh, it's so interesting. I mean, I think can benefit. Like, one of the great things about sport, whether you're a ref or you're a coach or you're a player or whatnot, is practicing mindfulness and being present in the moment. Like, giving them habits of things that they can do to be able to get themselves ready for the next play. So when they are feeling, you know, upset and emotional, you know, can they take a deep breath and take a few steps and ground themself back into where they need to be? You know, be focused on the next play, and even have words to themselves. Like, there might be a phrase that you know, you give them to practice to themselves in their head while they're taking that deep breath, such as, like, "Focus on the next play. Focus on the next play. Focus on the next five minutes," whatever it is. "Be the best you can be for the next five minutes." You know, a- and I think that's really important. I mean, I know as a referee, you know, I've had moments in time where, you know, I felt I made, maybe made a couple bad decisions in a row. Like, I got a couple throw-in decisions wrong, or, you know, I pointed the wrong way on a foul, and then you're just trying to cleanse and just trying to take a deep breath and be like, "Okay." Come back. Okay, let's get focused on the next play. Let's be great on the next play. Let's be great, you know, for the next five minutes, whatever it is. I'm just gonna focus on the n- the next five minutes. And you just wanna h- whatever you can do is to try and get them to be present. You can't change other people. You can't change how other people are gonna react, or other people, what calls they're gonna make. All you can do is be the best that you can be. All you can do is take control of you can't let someone else... I, you know, one thing I always tell my kids, "Don't let someone else set your emotions." No one's in control of how you That's right. in control of how you Yep Okay? You decide, am I gonna be happy today? You know, am I gonna be positive today? Am I gonna have a good attitude? Or am I gonna have a bad attitude? Okay? That is strength. And I would just, again, I don't wanna, I don't wanna frame it in a negative and say, you know, "When you pout that's weakness." And you don't wanna do that because then it gets in their head. But I would just encourage them. Strength is taking responsibility for your actions. Strength is, you know, being strong in the face of adversity. Strength, yeah you know, being resilient when things don't go your way. And start framing it up as that's what I wanna see. You know? That's what we all wanna see, and that's what we wanna see out of our teammates. And I would also say to your teammates, "Guys, if you see one of your teammates who is having a bad moment, and losing their composure and get upset, pick them up." Okay? That's what a great teammate is. That's a strong teammate. So would just start setting these conditions, you know, for what we wanna see, but also making sure that they understand that they are in control. Okay? Referee's not in control of how you feel. You're in control of how you feel. And starting to set that as the right mindset for Yeah, no, that's great. And I, we, we talk about, you know, hey, you can- you're allowed to be frustrated, right? If you, if you don't like the call, I- we understand. We're all human, but let's turn that frustration into focusing on the play. Go get the ball back, right? Go get a shot. Ma- That's make a good, make a good, pass, you know? Like you're saying, right? Pick, pick up your teammates. You know, just get back in the play right away and go after it, and let's turn it in, you know, that negative thing into a positive thing. So I'm, I'm right there with you think that's the big thing too. It's like again it's not about... and truly everyone thinks this is so trite saying this, winning or losing. It's not. It really doesn't matter. Honestly speaking, if I was speaking to a parent out there and they're wondering which team, you know, should my kid join, you don't wanna join the team that's 10 and 0, okay? If that, if your kid is not like the superstar best kid whatnot, or even if your kid is the superstar best kid, you'd like to be on a team that's five and five, six and four, four and six, okay? 'Cause you need your child to learn how to lose, and you need your child to be in a competitive environment, everyone's always chasing the best team, and they win, and they do this. Yep that's not necessarily great for development, especially as a kid. You know, what I wanna be seeing, you know, out of my kids, are they growing and developing every game? You know, again, it's not about, you know, they can be down five-nil, but if they do a great job of, you know, working on their first touch, one touch passing, one-twos. They put together six different, one-two passing combinations in the game, that's wonderful. If they, you know, deliver four or five early crosses into the penalty area. If they, you know, again, do a wonderful job on, you know, getting shots on goal, even if they didn't score, but they've put, you know, 15 shots on the keeper whatnot, that's fantastic. And we should be focused on those types of things because that is, you know, really what's gonna determine are they successful in the sport long term. If we're only judging things on wins and losses in a game, you know, yeah don't be surprised if your kid doesn't wanna play anymore after U12, Well, yeah, and it's, it's confidence building too because you want those small wins that they can focus on, right? If, if, if scoring a goal or winning a game is the only measure that they have to build themselves up, they're gonna fail, right? Like, as adults, we know that, right? Every day, there's no way that you know, how many jobs have you applied for and lost out on, right? There's just things in life that come up that help build your confidence as you go, and you gotta focus on those small things, right? L- just like you said, the pass, the shot, Yeah. being a good teammate. What- whatever those things are, those are wins, and we need to recognize those too Yeah. And by the way, soccer is a absolutely cruel game where the best team could have 20 shots on goal and Yeah. Right then the team who, you know, obviously isn't playing well, but all of a sudden they get a lucky penalty kick or they get a long free kick that just somehow goes over the keeper's, you know, hands or something like that, and they win one-nothing. Like, again, if you're just judging on wins and losses, you're gonna have a really, you know unhealthy relationship with the absolutely game is about so much more. You know, it is about teamwork, and it's resilience, and it's, like, strategy and, awareness and agility and adaptability, and it's physical, but it's also about, quickness. It's and technique. There's so many things that can be done and can enjoy. And I think those are the things, if we can just get them focused on, you know, be in the moment, you know, focus on that next pass and a good first touch, focus on being in the right position, focus on, communication, you know, with your team. Focus on that work rate, and really closing someone down and causing a turnover. Like, all of those type of things. You can get them focused on, you know, those micro wins, like you just said, get the ball back, you know. That's, like, a simple thing. It's "Hey, let's get that ball back. How quickly can we get that ball back?" You know and celebrate that. And encourage the parents to be looking for those things too, those little small wins, whatnot. You'll be setting up a really positive environment. And again, you've got someone who's going to fall in love with the game and wanna participate in the game for the rest of their life. If we hyper-fixate on wins and losses or referee decisions, all that's gonna create is an environment of toxicity, right we're gonna lose kids who do not wanna participate in team sports, which is honestly like you're just cheating people out of some of the most important lessons that they can get, not just as a player, but as a human being in Right, and, and some of their most fun moments that they should lo- they should look back on these things very fondly, right? That, that's, that should be the ultimate goal. So, thousand so David, imagine you could instill one new rule for sidelines of, of youth sports tomorrow. What's, what's one rule you would instill on the sideline? And that, let's say, let's say, hey, it could be a rule for the players in the, in the bench sideline or the parent sideline, right? Mm-hmm. I mean there's a couple things. So, so again, we haven't discussed this, but I am the director of referee program and development for the largest soccer league in the United States in SoCal Southern California. And so we do get to put policies and procedures in place out there. So we do have a a sideline setup where the actual parents sit on the same side as the field as the coach, so the coach can hear what the parents are saying, and also you can see which parents are causing issues, which team's parents, and the referees are able to work without anyone sitting behind them. So they're on one side of the sideline, the parents on the other side of the sideline. It helps a great deal. I also I don't like, There's so many issues where you've got parents of different teams sitting together and someone says something and some... And then there's like a fight. It's the most toxic juvenile crap ever. I'd love to get, you know, different field setups. That's one thing. You know, the second thing and it's just... I, it's not a rule, but I just want parents to, not be directing anyone else on the field. I don't want them... And I mentioned this earlier. They shouldn't be trying to coach, they shouldn't be trying to joystick, and they shouldn't be tying to critique the referee. I just wish they would just focus on being parents. And again, I really encourage people, you know, at the beginning of the year and throughout the year reminding the parents, "Here are the phrases I wanna hear from you. I wanna hear, you know, clapping, I wanna hear cheering, I wanna hear celebrating, you know, great soccer plays no matter who does them on the field. Even if it's for an opponent, I want you to keep a positive, supportive environment. That is important. I want you to pick the kids up when they're down. I want you to encourage them. I want you to celebrate the things that we are focused on improving here. And if you can do that, we are gonna have a great experience." And then when your kid comes off the field, kid comes off the field, all I wanna hear you say to them is, "I loved watching you play." I get really emotional 'cause my kids are all grown Yeah But I loved watching you Yeah Great effort out there today. You did... It was... Ugh loved that, great pass that you had. Oh, that shot that you had was unbelievable, whatever that was. Man, that tackle you had over here, that was so great." That's all I wanna hear. I just wanna hear praise of one or two things that your child did well and how much you enjoyed watching them play. That is it. Yeah. Nothing's worse when they off, they come off and you start critiquing them right away. Like, you, you hear, you hear, some parents and it's like, man, way to, way to beat that kid down. It's just crazy dude. I mean, 'cause l- post-game, coach is probably gonna say something about what they liked and didn't Yeah. don't need the parent to do that Then secondly, dude, you're not the coach, Right. Yeah And also the kid, especially at 11 years old, they know what they did Of course. Of course, yeah. what... They don't need you to remind them of That's right, yeah literally just create a positive environment, you know, in that ride home Yeah that the kid develop- falls in love with the game and sticks with it. I mean, there just, again, there's so many wonderful that your kid can learn even from a loss. I think my kids have grown so much more through adversity than they have through wins. And again, you know I'm fortunate that, you know, my kid played in a number of state championships and won high school state championships, but they also lost, right? Yeah and they've also gone through times when they were benched, you know, and they didn't get to play, and they didn't get picked, and they didn't make a team, stuff like that. But I'm telling you, those are the moments that shape successful and resilient adults. And again, it's just embrace it. You know, take the good with the Yeah know, if your kid is, you know, down and upset and they've had a loss, you know, don't get upset because they've lost whatnot. Recognize that they are learning a lesson, and they're dealing with those emotions, and that is good. All you need to do as a parent is support them, you know, pick them up, you know, take them out, you know, for dinner or go get ice cream or whatever, you know. And just, you know, and tomorrow or the next day say, "Hey, you wanna go kick it around? You wanna go play?" You know, whatever it is. Just be supportive. Just be, you know, a positive role model and emulate the behaviors that, you know, you, they, you wanna see in them as Yeah, and you wanna hope that those losses and those things that aren't going their way are those moto- motivational roadblocks that help push them, right? Help push them into the, the person that they're meant to be and, and keep pushing them forward and to, to improve every time that they can Dude, man, it's not whether bad things are gonna happen to you in Right Yes. to them. Yeah That is it. I mean and that's the thing. I mean, my kids, you know, I mean, my daughter's like, her motto is, "Everything happens for a reason." That's her thing. You know, it's just everything happens for a reason. Yep, it is what it is. Let's go That's great know my eldest son, I mean, he'd been through a lot of adversity. He had some very serious injuries, and he was a goalkeeper. And you ask anyone, like, in this town who played with my son to go around, you know, it's And he played on, he was in the US Development Academy, like when that was a thing for you know, before MLS NEXT. He was a great goalkeeper, but he was 5'8" as a Okay. Yeah And so there was always some 6'3", 6'4" I will see you in challenging him for a position. You know, he always had to work harder. Yeah You know, he was always the first kid at practice. He was always the last one to leave. He never missed anything. He was there for the games, always picking up his teammates. He was doing every possible thing he could do to make his team better, and he was beloved by his team, beloved by his That's awesome because he was a great teammate. You know, even if you can't be the best player out there, you know, and not everyone is. Not everyone's got, you know, the physical attributes or whatever, or the coordination, whatever it is, but just be the best freaking teammate you can be, you know? And man, those you will be suc- and be resilient and be positive and you know, be in the moment, stay present, and you will be successful in life and what I hear you saying, these are the fringe things beyond the skill, right? You could be the most skilled player in the world, but if you don't have these other things, these char- characteristics, these character traits, then, you know, you're, you're missing half the game, I would say Dave, listen we know so many kids who are... you know, have all of the physical gifts, you know, all like, 6'7", massive wingspan whatever their sport was, and just so many unbelievable physical talents and all this potential. And, you know, they're not in college now, or they've dropped out of college, or they didn't even go to college, or they've just completely become, you know, just a mess because they don't have the right mental attributes. They didn't have the right values instilled in them. And just one thing I'll also say too is, like, you know, the kid who is the best player at 10 or 11 or 12 is not going to be the best player at 15 and 16, and it's not going to be the best player at 18, 19, or 20, okay? That's really important that people need to know. Don't get fixated on, you know, where your kid is, or are they on the top team, or are they on the best team, or are they starting or not? Focus on making sure that you're laying a foundation for success, again, you know, mentally, emotionally, so that, you know... it... and make sure that they're loving the game. You know, give them the environment they can fall in love with the game because they might all of a sudden hit a growth spurt. They might all of a sudden, like, just Yeah. Something clicks, right? Yeah You never... yeah. It's really big. I... the last thing I would just say on that kind of stuff too, which is just so important. So again, I'm a soccer referee. And soccer is, you know, quickly becoming, you know, most popular sport for youth in America to play. And there has been a historical fixation on getting kids college scholarships. Oh, yeah can forget about that. There is no college scholarship left anymore for the overwhelming majority of American soccer players, so just stop focusing on it. Now, if you go to any D1 school in this country if they have a starting lineup of 11 players, nine of them are from overseas. They're 22, 23 years old. They've gone through professional academies. They've tried to get onto a professional team. You know, maybe they were on, you know, playing in the second or third division in Sweden or Spain or Portugal or Brazil, and now they're coming over to America and having a wonderful time. There's no space anymore for your kid. There's only 9.5 full scholarships on a soccer team for Division Yeah. Right okay? Roster's 24 now. It used to be 30. There's 9.5 scholarships. All of those scholarships are going to kids who have been playing internationally, you know, for the most Mmhmm or they are the top- of MLS NEXT, maybe ECNL. There is there's chances, yeah, you can play D2, D3, NII- I will tell you the overwhelming majority of kids that we know who played MLS NEXT and went to these schools to play soccer, they've transferred. They've left. You know, they've just... They, you know, it's, i- it's they didn't go to play, you know, for whatever the school was Right Right. They wind up getting burnt out, you know, they weren't getting play time, and they just eventually were like, "Okay, now I'm gonna go to school to actually go to school." you know, just know that. It, the college scholarship thing is a, is a, is a false reality. It's fool's gold. You know, focus on creating a good human being. Yeah. No, that's fantastic. that is Yeah it. If it happens, you know, wonderful that they go to college and get some money. That's unreal. If they play professionally, that's unreal. But first and foremost, a good human being. Yeah, which is the which is the, stuff outside of the skill, right, that you're talking about here. It's, it's the things, the, it's the characteristics, the, the hard work, the good team, the good teamwork, right? The dedication. I mean, it's, it's ... Yes. know, just all of those Yeah, for sure. Well, we, we did our five questions, and I, I'd like to slip in one bonus one if it's okay with you. it so I would like to know, in your opinion, what's one thing, or maybe you've seen this, or something you recommend a coach do that instantly can earn respect of the referee or the crew that's reffing a game? Oh, man. I think the pre-match is so important. Like you... A- and this is a big thing for me, you know, as a referee, but I think it's a really important thing that coaches can do as well. Before the match begins, you know, go introduce yourself, a- and be very conscious very conscious that everyone in that crew is getting the same level of respect as well. We have... One of the big complaints that I hear from young female referees is that coaches, even though there's a, there's an older man who might be on the crew or a teenage boy as opposed to a girl, all of a sudden the coaches always go up assuming that the boy or the man is the When it might actually be the young woman. So please greet everyone, shake hands, get names. If the first interaction you have with a referee is something you're upset about, makes it really hard to communicate. So I would just do that, you know, before the match even begins. It's really important. And then again, you know, if something does happen with a parent in the match, don't wait for the referee to have to address that parent. Refs really they wanna get the game in, they wanna move Yeah You know, if you're hearing a parent losing control, address the parent. You know, just yell across the field like, "Hey, parents, enough. No more," whatever it is. That's all you usually need to do, and no one likes getting called out. Like, you don't have to call them up by name, but just like, "Parents, stop. Please stop." That would be wonderful. We'd really appreciate it. A lot of referees, especially teenage referees, they don't feel comfortable. They've never in their life had to tell a parent, you know, to For sure. Yeah an adult to behave themselves. There's a power imbalance there. So just, you know, please take action on that to try and help create a positive, supportive environment for everyone on the pitch because again, you know, a parent yelling at a referee affects Yeah It affects all of the other parents 'cause emotions are contagious. Your kids are now gonna start thinking that the referee is against them, and they're not getting a call, and they're not gonna be in the right mentality, whatnot. You know, the other parents on the other team might start chirping too, and then all of a sudden you've got a referee feeling attacked. They're like, "I don't need to deal with this." You know? go find a job, you know, doing something else. Gosh, I don't... I can flip burgers and make the same amount of money. I don't need to be coming, dealing For sure. Yeah So just help us create a positive, supportive environment, and it starts right at check-in. That's awesome. Well, David, that's all the questions I have for you today. I think, you know, I'd love to tap into your brain more, but I, I know I need to let you go. You've got some World Cup stuff coming up here. I'm excited for you. I'm excited for all your content. I will personally be continuing to look at everything and learn from you, and I hope everybody else listening does as well. Help me out. Where can, where can people find more of your materials and, and get engaged with you a little bit more? So I am @refsneedlovetoo everywhere. So again, refsneedlovetoo, T-O-O, on TikTok, on Instagram, on Facebook, on YouTube. Yeah, you name it, I'm out there. You could also find me at refsneedlovetoo.com if you wanna find my podcast and my blog. That's there. The podcast you can download anywhere podcasts are found at Refs Need Love Too. So you can find it there. And I would just, you know, encourage people, reach out if you got a question. I respond to every single message that I get. That's one thing that I've been doing since I started this channel almost five years ago, is if someone sends me a DM on Instagram or an email at refsneedlovetoo@gmail.com, I promise you, send me a play, I'll review it and I'll give you my honest, objective feedback on it. You may not agree with me, and that's totally cool too, you know, but I'll give you my honest feedback. So I just I wish everyone the best, and if there's something I can do to help, just let me know That's awesome, David. Thank you so much for being here. And if this episode helped you, share it with another coach or parent who's trying to figure things out, too. You can find Uncoached and this episode wherever you listen to podcasts. You can watch the episode on YouTube, and make sure to follow The Coaching Dad on Instagram, TikTok, or Facebook. We'll see you next time on Uncoached