Latest / Founder Unfiltered - What Founders Think But Never Say / Take the Blame, Give the Credit: The Leadership Mindset That Scales with Asim Khaliq

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Take the Blame, Give the Credit: The Leadership Mindset That Scales with Asim Khaliq · Founder Unfiltered - What Founders Think But Never Say

0:00
Welcome to another episode of Founder Unfiltered.
0:03
My name is Bradley Jacobs. I'm your host, the founder and
0:07
CEO of Mylance. Today I'm joined by Aseem
0:10
Khaliq. Aseem leads ecommerce brands and
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professionals to build scalable businesses through strategy,
0:16
execution systems and brand positioning.
0:19
He has over 27 years of experience, seven companies
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built, and over $800 million in revenue generated, bringing
0:27
proven frameworks to startups and scaling brands.
0:30
We're going to go deep Aseem. I'm really excited to have you
0:33
on the show today. Thanks for having me.
0:35
Excited for you to be here. So I want to jump right in into
0:39
some of the things you were sharing with me earlier on
0:42
before we started recording was the problem is the founder and
0:47
I, I'm on board with this, but but tell me what you mean by
0:50
that. So most of the time the founders
0:53
are the visionary and they think that the vision they need to
0:58
carry through the execution, which is fine.
1:01
At the early stage of their businesses, when they start the
1:04
business, they are everything from marketing genius to
1:09
execution, you know, pro. But as the business grow, it's
1:14
very difficult for founder to detach themselves from those
1:18
decisions because the the culture they build within within
1:21
the within their company or the startup is everything comes to
1:26
them and they approve and disapprove.
1:30
They need to be part of every meeting.
1:32
This means they know they they're going to have the final
1:34
say. But as the companies grows, most
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of the time the the founders does not have the skill set to
1:43
make those decisions. Or even if they have the skill
1:46
set, they cannot just become the bottleneck for their own vision.
1:51
So this means what founders need to do is they need to detach
1:56
themselves from those decision, from their emotional attachment
2:02
to the vision and the business. And it is, it is a very
2:06
difficult transition from A to B.
2:10
It, it's not going to happen, you know, in one day.
2:12
But they need to get prepared for this thing that one day, you
2:17
know, their brainchild is going to be big enough that they're
2:22
going to talk and run, you know, by themselves.
2:26
Do not intervene too much. I imagine this is particularly
2:30
challenging because the Super early days of building a
2:33
company, the founder is going off on their intuition a lot
2:37
using data where they can. But it, it is a little bit like
2:41
as a founder, you make every single decision early on and
2:44
then there becomes a point where that changes as you're talking
2:48
about. And I'm guessing that's why this
2:51
transition is so challenging. Yeah.
2:53
And then the other misconception come from probably more books
2:58
and and academics that dedication is the way to go.
3:03
And in my opinion, that becomes another bottleneck.
3:07
What happened? They start hiring different
3:09
people and other people start executing their tasks, their
3:13
responsibilities, but in between those, those transition as well.
3:20
What they do not create is the decision design system, meaning,
3:26
although people are working on their task, but then they come
3:30
into the founder again to make the decision.
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And over the period of time, repeatedly, repeatedly, this
3:37
becomes a company's culture. The founders become so insecure
3:41
that maybe X or Y is going to make a wrong decision.
3:45
I need to make that decision. And what happened this, this
3:50
decision, abundance of decision at the founder desk, it's not
3:55
only the bottleneck, it becomes a biggest obstacle for their
3:59
growth. And most of the time the failure
4:02
becomes, you know, very significant.
4:05
So what I said to them is, you know, delegation is good, but
4:10
let people make the decisions as well.
4:13
They're going to make some, you know, wrong decisions.
4:16
That's fine. You need to have some tolerance
4:18
of the for the failure. But then they're going to learn,
4:21
you know, what is, what is wrong and what is right.
4:24
And then this is how you're going to execute, you know, your
4:27
vision more professionally. So let me ask you right, if you,
4:32
every founder starts their company because they have either
4:35
problem they want to solve a customer they care about some
4:38
combination. And then as they go along, it's
4:42
possible that the solution that you build actually might be best
4:47
for a slightly different customer or the the, you know,
4:49
the solution looks different than you wanted it to.
4:53
So excuse me, like what do you recommend in that situation?
4:57
That is 1 of what one of the attribute you need to have as a
5:01
founder, that you shouldn't be driven by your intuition and the
5:06
emotional attachment to the problem.
5:09
So let the problem flow through the customer's mind and utility,
5:15
whatever you know you're solving and customers are going to shape
5:19
it. So you need to have a continuous
5:22
feedback loop where you are getting, you know, most of of
5:27
the feedback instead of, you know, you're pushing your, your
5:31
problem and the solution to the customer that this is the right
5:34
solution. Not the customer going to come
5:36
to you and they're going to say active.
5:38
This is not, you know, this is the right solution because I am
5:42
the one you should be focusing on instead of you, you know, so
5:47
it's a continuous validation process through the feedback
5:50
loop. The moment you're going to
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disconnect this feedback, you're going to push people and you're
5:56
going to become obsolete, you know, at one point.
5:59
I mean, it's such an interesting question, right?
6:01
Because you're going to be working on your business for
6:03
many, many, many years, right? These aren't quick things,
6:07
right? Minimum 5710 years probably,
6:09
assuming you have success, you know, over time and you do want
6:13
to be passionate about what you're working on.
6:16
Like how do you think about that?
6:18
How do you think about that? You need to have the humility to
6:22
accept that you don't know everything, so you know the best
6:27
people who are the best learner. You need to have that acceptance
6:32
that I don't know everything and someone else has the knowledge
6:38
and I need to have those receptors who receive all this
6:43
information and make it a straight decision.
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And that's all you know. And this is very emotional
6:50
because the more you learn, you think you know more.
6:54
In my opinion, the more you learn actually gives you the
6:57
humility that you don't know much.
7:00
So that is the thing, you know, if you're a founder, you are a
7:03
leader. You need to act like a leader
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that you know, I don't know everyone, everything.
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And let's get, you know, the, the, the, the point is, you
7:13
know, I need to be more listening than talking.
7:17
So what I'm hearing you say is listening as a founder and being
7:21
unattached to what I think the right answer is, is an
7:25
incredibly important skill. What else are the top from what
7:29
you've seen in all the businesses you've started and
7:31
every founder you've worked with?
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What are the other top 3-4 skills that are going to be the
7:35
most important for a successful business?
7:38
So first of all, you need to build a culture, but as I said
7:41
before, you need to have a failure tolerance culture for
7:45
yourself and for your team as well, number one.
7:49
Number two, you need to always have this attribute that where
7:54
you are taking all the blames for the failures and giving all
7:58
the credits to the people. And this is how people get
8:00
motivation, you know, motivated about, about about their
8:04
responsibilities. And one of the most important
8:07
thing is, as I said, you need to have the humility to listen to
8:13
other people. The moment you're going to
8:15
listen to other people, everyone is going to have an ownership
8:20
stake in your vision. And people are going to say, you
8:23
know, I'm also thinking this is my business and I need to
8:27
execute because the culture is always, you know, you need to
8:31
build a culture which is the reflection of your brand.
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You cannot do other way around. You cannot just build a brand
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because you think you're a genius and you know how to do
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branding. I know the culture is going to
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reflect on the on the on the market.
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So these are the kind of things you know you need to do.
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There are many other things you know you need to do as a leader,
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but these are the things, the culture is the first thing you
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need to have. You know, you know, taking
9:00
blames and stuff. One more thing I would add, you
9:03
know, never, you need to build resilience as well.
9:06
And and like you're going to see, you know, so many failures,
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You're going to see execution failures, strategy failures,
9:12
team failures. And if you get, you know, too
9:17
much emotional about those things, everything is going to
9:20
collapse in company because as a founder, you need to understand
9:25
the problem you're going to solve is the only problem which
9:31
you can solve and no one else can solve in the company.
9:34
That's why they're talking to you.
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And people do not understand that this part.
9:38
So let's suppose when I was running the company, they're not
9:41
going to talk about, you know, if we have two returns extra
9:46
mistake, they're going to talk to me if one of our corporate
9:51
client is signing off and they are really pissed off.
9:54
And you, I need to, you know, manage those clients the most
9:58
difficult course, you know, problems I need to solve and I
10:02
need to be very prepared about these things.
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And I don't worry about it. You know, I'm going to take care
10:08
of it, although I don't know how to take care of it literally,
10:11
you know, because but I cannot just make the perception what we
10:16
cannot solve this problem. The moment I'm going to say that
10:19
thing, the people are going to say, how come he's a leader?
10:21
You know, one of the one of the things I heard you say is we get
10:24
to tolerate failure, right? And that's not just within our
10:29
own failures. It's also within the team and
10:31
other people trying things that don't work and having that be a
10:36
quote UN quote failure, right? I feel like that's easy to say.
10:40
And then in practice that is so incredibly challenging.
10:43
I mean we are just taught that like quote UN quote failure bad
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thing. It depends.
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You know what how you define failure.
10:49
So that's suppose if you define failure which is very costly and
10:53
you invest every penny in from your account into a strategy and
10:58
then you test it and you say oh we are failed.
11:00
No, for the failure there is 3 principles which is fail often,
11:05
fail cheap and fail. Did it fail fast?
11:10
Is that the other one? Yeah, the third one, you know,
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so let's suppose if I have a bigger strategy and I want to
11:17
run this campaign, I just want to run the campaign $500 on, on
11:21
Meta to validate invalidate my hypothesis or my creatives or my
11:26
message. So the maximum failure is $500
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instead of you know, $50,000 campaign for VFCM.
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And that is the failure. You know, there is a difference
11:36
between, you know, a blunder and a failure, You know, so you
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don't need to have in a 50,000 failure, depending on the
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company size, but I would, I don't mind, you know, if I, if
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I'm spending a couple of $100 to validate my hypothesis, my
11:50
creative, my campaign, my messaging and optimizing those
11:54
things, these are failures, you know, so you need to have a
11:58
process where I going to fail three times in a day or two
12:02
times in a day instead of, you know, one time in a month.
12:06
So that's, that's the mindset, you know, of the failure.
12:09
It's not like you're failing the whole company, you know?
12:12
And maybe that the reframe there, right, is it's not a
12:15
failure at all, right? If you test $500 and you find
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ads that don't work right, it's a learning, it's an experience,
12:23
It's a, you know, iteration. And you take that forward and
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there's not even the word failure associated with.
12:29
Yeah. So, yeah, those kind of, you
12:31
know, validation and validation and, you know, iteration and
12:35
feedback, you know, actually they use these kind of words as
12:39
well. But at the end, people think,
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you know, emotionally that they fail, right?
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So you need to have this thing that that's OK.
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If you're going to fail in this hypothesis, in this test, that's
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OK. We're going to learn something.
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We're going to execute. It is always a process.
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And I would love to fail very early in the process to have
12:57
more hypothesis instead of, you know, that I'm not failing that
13:02
failure. Build resilience as well.
13:05
Yeah, You. One of the things you said that
13:07
stuck out to me was I get to take, you know, credit for all
13:10
the losses pretty much, and all the failures, but none of the
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credit for the things that are working and that will help my
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team feel like an owner of the business, which is so important.
13:21
Why does it work that way? Because The thing is, you need
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to understand you're not running a competition.
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It's not like you are getting all the trophies for yourself
13:30
and you're you're pumping yourself every day that you
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know, I'm, I'm the genius here. You know, I see this was my
13:36
decision and it worked. No, you know, so you're running
13:41
a company and and that's OK. You know, you're going to give
13:45
credit to other people and if something fail, you're going to
13:48
say, you know, probably I overlook, you know that thing
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and that's OK. We're going to move forward with
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this thing and this is how people are going to see that.
13:58
Actually, I'm owning the, you know, those things as well and
14:02
my efforts are appreciated here. You know, that's the biggest
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thing in any team. You know, it's not about winning
14:10
and losing, it's the process and, and the effort, you know,
14:14
when people are going to make and eventually you're going to,
14:17
you're going to succeed because think about, you know, a game
14:20
theory as well. Like, you know, if, if you are
14:23
just winning all the time, what's going to happen?
14:26
You know, you're going to lose big time one time and you're not
14:30
going to have the resilience and, and, and you know, the
14:32
emotional detachment on those things and you're going to fail.
14:35
Like psychologically, you're never going to come back, you
14:38
know, again. So I, I think this is, this is,
14:41
this is the interaction you're going to have.
14:43
It does not mean that we are promoting that you need to make
14:46
bad decisions. No, we are not promoting this.
14:50
What we are doing is creating a process where, you know, we are
14:53
evaluating our, our judgement, our hypothesis, our, our
14:57
processes all the time to find, you know, demise.
15:01
You mentioned resilience and it's such AI love the word in so
15:04
many ways because of how important it is as a founder and
15:07
just building the resilience when things are challenging,
15:11
people leave, customers get bad feed, but whatever it is, right?
15:14
It's resilience. It's so important.
15:16
How do you build resilience when you're starting out or just
15:20
haven't faced the adversity yet? I'll give you my personal
15:24
patron. So each time, and this is
15:27
actually resilience that the failure or those blunders were,
15:32
you know, in my journey was the best thing happened to me.
15:35
I have this, this, this characteristics where if
15:39
something going to happen and let's suppose you lost client,
15:43
you know, your server is down for a few hours and you lost so
15:47
much money. Your, your, your campaign is
15:49
failed. So I'm a human.
15:52
I'm not expecting myself that I'm not going to get, you know,
15:55
emotional outburst, you know, not on the team, but I'm going
15:59
to probably go away from the computer screen and having, you
16:02
know, some, some, some some emotional thing.
16:05
But after probably 15 to 20 minutes, half an hour Max, I
16:09
going to come back. I going to say, you know what,
16:12
if we fail X, we need to gain X + Y.
16:17
You know, we're going to do it again.
16:19
And this is something build a Better Business always for
16:23
myself. So one time, you know, we have,
16:25
we have lost in a whole campaign.
16:27
I said it doesn't matter. So I stopped the screen screen.
16:31
I just, you know, went outside, walked for 10-15 minutes, came
16:35
back and I said, you know what, I need to see the why we failed
16:39
and that's building or something.
16:41
And actually that that was the thing that I was building
16:44
several business within the business.
16:46
Because each time, you know, those was the trigger, like all
16:50
those blenders were the trigger to analyse more deeply and
16:54
execute more professionally to build something else.
16:57
But this is what you know, you need to do as as a, as a
17:01
founder, you cannot just say, you know, Oh no, I'm not going
17:04
to have emotion. You're going to have emotions.
17:06
You know, if you want to cry, you can cry as well.
17:09
Doesn't matter, you know, but 30 minutes Max.
17:15
Wow, I love that you're working with tons of different companies
17:19
right now and I'd love to hear you're the, I feel like the
17:22
landscape is changing rapidly, especially obviously with AI
17:27
just but the market as a whole. And I'm curious, what are you
17:30
seeing work? What are you seeing not work
17:32
like? What's changing in the
17:34
marketplace and what's top of mind as you work with all these
17:36
different companies? I think there is too much noise
17:39
right now because AI is also changing so much, you know, like
17:45
you will have work on platform and then that that from is is
17:48
launching another feature in next, you know, two months and
17:53
then you know, many other solutions are coming.
17:56
So I think there is too much noise.
17:58
I think you need to take a strategic look on AI, like how
18:02
you can build your company on AI instead of, you know, focusing
18:07
on AI as a technology. If you're running an e-commerce
18:10
business, you are in in the different business.
18:12
You need to use AI to make your business more effective,
18:18
productive, efficient. This is all it is.
18:21
You know, it's like a Coca-Cola. You know the Coca-Cola is not
18:25
there in the refrigeration business GE built, you know the
18:28
refrigerator and Coca-Cola utilize it.
18:31
And this is what you need to think about it.
18:33
You know how you can utilize, you know, AI to build a
18:39
different workflows, different automations, how to hireright
18:43
people, how to hire, you know, good consultant tools, platforms
18:49
and how you can define a next level or next generation of your
18:54
company or whatever your next iteration of of everything.
18:58
But eventually it's going to change And, and in my opinion,
19:01
I'm talking to my, but in my opinion, this is the best time
19:05
for e-commerce businesses to start and grow.
19:10
I stopped by only commerce business in 2017.
19:14
Now I'm thinking again to starting with another e-commerce
19:17
business. This is the best time because I
19:20
can automate them everything and without hiding the 5000 people,
19:26
I can do you know, maybe 7010 people and I can build the same
19:30
business. If we make it practical, I mean,
19:33
what are the biggest automations or impacts specifically for AI
19:39
that you've seen that are real game changers that didn't exist
19:43
345 years ago? Yeah, so data is 1 because AI
19:48
can read your reports and give you more in depth analysis
19:53
instead of you know someone else presenting to you.
19:58
We are doing great. It doesn't work that way.
20:02
You can create complex sets of now data analytics report as
20:07
well because AI can give you more strategic view on on
20:11
customer life cycle. This is the first thing.
20:16
So once you have write, write data, then you need to think,
20:20
you know about the execution within every team, like
20:23
marketing team performance, marketing team operations,
20:26
customer service, project management, product itself.
20:31
And this is where you know you're going to start.
20:33
And you don't need to start too big.
20:35
You just need to start, you know, few automation and that's
20:38
all you know, and Start learning and start stacking things up and
20:41
up and up. In six months, 8 months, you
20:44
know you are going to be an AI driven company.
20:47
People need training as well. So give them, you know,
20:49
resources and training and some space within the time that if
20:53
they are working 8 hours, let them work five hours.
20:56
Learn something, give them, you know, something to learn, some
20:59
budget, you know, you need to have for the failures as well.
21:02
As I said, you know, you cannot just say I'm buying this tool
21:06
and make sure you are using this tool.
21:07
Maybe this tool is not your, you're going to say after one
21:10
month, no, it's not working. You need to find something else.
21:13
So you need to have, you know, these these kind of things as
21:15
well. There's a new AI tool every 5
21:18
minutes right now, right? And there does this and it does
21:21
that and it's better than this and it's faster and it works in
21:24
the whatever. I mean, there's you name it.
21:26
How do you think about using AI to truly drive my business
21:30
forward, automate things, save me time, help grow revenue, and
21:35
try out all these different tools because it feels like a
21:39
full time job to even keep up with what's going on?
21:42
Actually, you don't need to. You just need to define, you
21:45
know, what my operations, you know, obstacles are and where I
21:50
can utilize AI. So you need to take one thing at
21:53
a time. You cannot because the, the
21:56
people in the business on the, on the platform side, on the AI
22:00
side and the people who are running, you know, this
22:03
business, they need to handshake at one point.
22:06
And realistically, you cannot just supply 100 tools, you know,
22:09
tomorrow. You just need to take a couple
22:11
of tools. Like I'm, I'm, I'm very much
22:14
into automation, but I have like 3-4 subscription only.
22:19
I'm not crazy, you know, paying for the subscription because I
22:22
can if I cannot utilize the tool, what's the point of having
22:25
20 tools like going to app solo and bind, you know, every damn
22:29
AI tool for cheap for lifetime access.
22:32
No. Why?
22:34
You know. What are those top tools that
22:36
you're using right now? The top AI ones.
22:38
I'm I'm too much into clot before I was using chat GDP, but
22:43
I use both to validate and invalidate both.
22:46
So think about, you know, I have two strategic head.
22:49
So someone said this is a great idea.
22:51
I said, OK, what do you think about this great idea?
22:53
I said, no, these are some flaws.
22:54
And I said, OK, this is, this is the feedback I got from another
22:58
strategic head. So they are fighting, you know,
23:01
so I, OK, let them fight. You know, this is one thing I,
23:04
I, I have fun with, you know, with AI, I'm using those tools.
23:08
I'm using some tools for creatives as well, but with
23:15
caution because AI creative people can pick in a very
23:19
quickly. I mean, people that you need to
23:22
have the creative directions and creative, you know, brand design
23:26
or something and then use the AI instead of asking AI to use in
23:29
all these fake hypothetical fantasy images and people going
23:34
to start hating those images. Then I'm using, you know, some
23:37
product management small stuff as well, some voice over these
23:41
kind of things for the clients. But mostly, you know, these are
23:45
these are the things that I'm using.
23:46
How do you think about creating businesses that are sustainable
23:52
proof or they're not going to be wiped off the face of the planet
23:56
by AI, cloud, open AI, Google? I mean, these companies are
24:00
building so fast and they're building so much.
24:03
How do you create a business that is going to stand the test
24:06
of time given how fast things are innovating?
24:09
I'm going to have my own bias because I am in e-commerce
24:11
mostly D2C and B2C. They're not.
24:15
They're not going to fail. Any consumer product not going
24:19
to fail. So instead of thinking about AI,
24:21
think about human. Humans are the consumer.
24:25
So you know, if humans are consuming your product, you
24:28
don't need to worry about AI. You know they're going to use
24:30
your product anyways. But yes, for many tools and many
24:35
solutions, many platform, what human are are using, probably
24:39
they're going to abandon, you know, it's always in the horses
24:42
versus car. And that's how it is.
24:44
You know, if you're selling horses, think about, you know,
24:47
that use the technology to sell the cars.
24:49
The idea is saying you're commuting from, you know, A to
24:53
B. So before we were using, you
24:55
know, 100 years ago, we are using horses, we started using
24:58
cars. And then how we start, you know,
25:02
all this automation and technology and everything.
25:05
But at the end, you are the business of devices.
25:09
You know, you're going to be fine.
25:11
So you need to always think about the vision instead of you
25:14
know your, your execution thing. You know what you're offering.
25:17
Or music is a very good example, from vinyl to new cassette to CD
25:23
to downloadables to Spotify music.
25:28
If you are in music industry, you're fine.
25:31
But if you're in wild industry, no, you're in museum now.
25:35
Right, right. Last topic I want to hit on
25:38
before we wrap up is we talked about passion and being a
25:43
driving force in as an entrepreneur.
25:46
I know you have lots of thoughts on this so really just want to
25:50
start by opening the floor. And what are your thoughts on on
25:53
passion in as an entrepreneur? Yeah, as an entrepreneur, you
25:56
need to have a passion to start with.
25:58
But remember all the businesses are very boring and it has to be
26:03
boring if you're in the excitement more all the time,
26:08
you're not going to work on on on the task you have.
26:12
So, for example, you know, if you see, you know, if let's
26:15
suppose if you love food and you're opening a restaurant
26:18
business, yes, you, you have passion about food and all the
26:23
people serving. But the whole process of running
26:26
a restaurant business is very damn boring.
26:29
From buying, you know, stuff and cooking and serving and you
26:33
know, getting bad feedback and even you're saying thank you,
26:37
Sir, it's a very boring process. So passion could be a driving
26:41
force. If you be very realistic about
26:44
that, starting a business would be a very boring endeavor.
26:49
And most of the time the boring businesses are the great
26:51
businesses because people do not think about those business.
26:54
Everyone thinks about fashion, everything's about travel and
26:58
these kind of business. But think about, you know, if
27:00
someone is making saving fan, you know, what is the passion
27:06
about making sailing fan? You know, all the motors and,
27:10
and these kind of things, but they're making good money, you
27:13
know, So you need to have a balance between you need, you
27:16
need to passionate about, you know, what you deliver, but the
27:20
process of having business is, is boring.
27:23
And you need to accept the reality that, you know, I'm
27:26
going to get bored. I need to have this mindset that
27:29
I'm going to have long hours. I'm going to have bad days and
27:32
good days, but at the end if my customers are saying, Brett, you
27:37
are a great guy, that's all matter.
27:40
You know, that's the passion part.
27:44
How do I get comfortable as an entrepreneur with Yeah, it's
27:48
going to be boring to run my business.
27:50
This is what it is, you know, so start a business and you're
27:54
going to see, you know, how, how quickly and your agent you know,
28:00
so it's supporting. So that's the thing.
28:04
But but you need to enjoy everyday working.
28:08
If you are enjoying everyday working, that's all matters.
28:12
And but it is it is going to be boring.
28:15
Hiring process is a very boring process.
28:17
People management is a very boring process.
28:20
Getting bad feedback is a very boring, you know, process all
28:26
these things, you know, if your best employees are leaving you
28:29
or maybe you know, you need to try to negotiate and people are
28:33
not understanding your point of view.
28:36
It's not easy, but these are the realities you know.
28:41
I've seen thank you so much for your time and expertise.
28:44
If people want to find you, work with you, maybe even, you know,
28:48
an opportunity to share what you're working on a little bit
28:51
more, the floor is yours. So my website I have agency
28:55
website which is E com expedition and my personal
28:59
website is asking colleague.com, myfirstandlastname.com.
29:04
And yeah, I'm right now I'm working more on on the system
29:09
instead of Band-Aid fixing, you know, on the business side.
29:13
So I'm trying to build a system where either people can
29:16
implement themselves or I can have ready minimum consulting
29:21
hours with them. Because at this point I think,
29:24
you know, I need to have more impact.
29:27
So that's why I'm building system, you know, that's all.
29:32
Awesome. All right, we'll include those
29:33
links in the show notes as well, so people can find them really
29:36
easily as seen. Thanks so much for your time,
29:38
energy, expertise, really interesting conversation.
29:40
And yeah, appreciate you. Thank you.