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905. Bible Study: Job 15-17 (Arguing and Pride- what does it accomplish?) · Faith by annm2705

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Chapter 15 from the book of Job. First let's pray, dear Lord,
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please open our minds, our hearts to what you have to say
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and let us absorb these words written in Job.
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We ask this in Jesus name, Amen. Now Illefez, this is the first
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friend of Job's who was speaking and wasn't all that supportive.
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He starts speaking again. In fact, just to Fast forward,
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we're in chapter 15 and until chapter 38, there is a non-stop
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back and forth between people. And so it's kind of like as I'm
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reading this, I'm thinking, you know, there's a certain point
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where you should just stop arguing about things.
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And, and it just keeps on going on and on and on until chapter
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38 when God speaks up. So we'll get through this kind
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of back and forth. But it, it kind of is one of
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those situations where you think about if you have a disagreement
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with somebody, sometimes it's just better to just stop and
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don't keep, you know, it gets in the circuitous conversation
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where neither party changes their opinion, but they just
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keep saying the same things over and over and over again.
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It's kind of what I feel like here.
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So let's go through it and see how far we get Iliphaz.
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Then Iliphaz the Teemanite replied.
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Would a wise person answer with empty notions, or fill their
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belly with the hot E wind? Would they argue with useless
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words, with speeches that have no value?
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But you even undermine piety and hinder devotion to God.
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Your sin prompts your mouth. You adopt the tongue of the
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crafty. Your own mouth condemns you, not
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mine. Your own lips testify against
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you. That's pretty bold for a
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supposed friend to say is just very accusational.
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Then he goes on to say, are you the first man ever born?
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Then he starts in with sarcasm. So we first we get accusation,
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then we get sarcasm, and then he becomes condescending.
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Were you brought forth before the hills?
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Do you listen in on God's counsel?
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That's kind of interesting because, you know, here it is.
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It's like I was thinking when I read this, do you listen in on
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God's counsel like he's being sarcastic.
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Illa Fez is to Job just saying, you know, what do you know?
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Are you one of the the great ones in God's counsel?
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But what's interesting is that in God's counsel was when it was
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decided what was going to happen to Job, and Iliphaz had no idea
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of it and Job didn't either. But still, neither of them are
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in God's counsel. And it's kind of almost like,
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you know, reaping and sowing, like he's accusing Job of
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thinking he's in the counsel. Well, is he also thinking of
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himself like he's in God's counsel, like he knows
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everything? So it just, it just shows us how
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like arguing is really not productive a lot of times,
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especially when people don't have all the information.
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So here it goes. Do you have a monopoly on
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wisdom? Now, where is sarcasm going to
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go? Is that going to be helpful in
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this relationship here? What do you know that we do not
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know? So he's arguing.
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What insights do you have that we do not have?
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They're both trying to justify themselves.
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The Gray haired and the aged are on our side, men even older than
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your Father. Are God's consolations not
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enough for you? Words spoken gently to you?
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Why has your heart carried you away?
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And why do your eyes flash so that you bent your Rage Against
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God and pour out such words from your mouth?
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Now this is interesting, these next statements in verses 14
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through 16. What are mortals?
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That they could be pure, or those born of woman that they
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could be righteous? If God places no trust in his
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holy ones, if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes, how
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much less mortals who are bile and corrupt, who drink up evil
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like water? I think Iliphaz is actually
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recalling his dream, that little spirit that visited him, that
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kind of spoke to him, but he couldn't see the form and he was
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like in terror, but that implanted something in his mind
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and now he's using it again. That was one of the first when
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Iliphaz first talked, he spoke about this spirit that came to
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him. And we know from chapters one
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and two that God allowed Satan to do something.
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So again, when it says that, you know, anger is the don't give
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the devil a foothold and that anger is the foothold of the
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devil. So think about this.
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This is like the devil. We know for sure from chapters
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one and two that the devil was given authority to come against
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Job and we know that the friends came to comfort him.
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But then the first friend had a had a dream and then because of
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his dream he starts accusing Job.
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So he gets into accusations, sarcasm, condescending, arguing.
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So this is the foothold of the devil, but they don't even know
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it. And then instead of being
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supportive of their friend, they are just talking about things
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they don't even understand. So verse 17, listen to me and I
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will explain to you. Let me tell you what I have
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seen, what the wise have declared.
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Hide nothing received from their ancestors.
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Hiding nothing that had been received from their ancestors.
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To home alone the land was given when no foreigners moved among
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them. All his days the wicked man
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suffers torment. And the ruthless man through all
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the years store, through all the years stored up for him.
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Terrifying sounds fill his ears. When all seems well, marauders
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attack him. He just despairs of escaping the
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realm of darkness. He is marked for the sword.
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He wanders about for food like a vulture.
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He knows the day of darkness is at hand.
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Distress and anguish fill him with terror.
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Trouble overwhelms him like a king poised to attack because he
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shakes his first at God. So right here he's saying, you
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know you can't get angry at God, but I don't know so, and bonds
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himself against the Almighty, defiantly charging against him
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with a thick, strong shield, though his face is covered with
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fat and his waist bulges with flesh.
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He will. He will inhabit ruined towns and
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houses where no one lives, houses crumbling to rubble.
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He will no longer be rich, and his wealth will not endure, nor
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will his possessions spread over the land.
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He will not escape the darkness. A flame will wither his shoots,
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and the breath of God's mouth will carry him away.
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Let him not deceive himself by trusting in what is worthless,
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for he will not get anything in return.
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He will get nothing in return. Before his time he will wither,
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and his branches will not flourish.
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He will be like a vine stripped of its unripe grapes, like an
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olive tree shedding it's blossoms.
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For the company of the godless will be barren, and fire will
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consume the tents of those who love bribes.
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They conceive trouble and give birth to evil.
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Their womb fashions deceit. Now here we see this book is so
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hard because some of what they're saying is true, it's
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just they don't know the context of what is happening to Job.
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So here's what the Study Bible says, questions and answers.
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How did Iliphas think Job was hindering devotion to God?
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He thought Job was weakening people's piety because he
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persistently refused to acknowledge his sins.
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Iliphas thought Job was a terrible example.
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The truly pious would confess their sins and seek God's mercy,
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not ask for a hearing before God Almighty.
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So is it wrong to be angry with God?
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No. The problem comes when
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legitimate feelings of anger are not handled correctly and lead
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to inappropriate bitterness and rebellion, which sometimes
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accompany anger. The Bible realistically portrays
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the frustration and anger of God's people when things went
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wrong or when they could not understand why certain things
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happened. This was the reason for Job's
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anger. He left or he felt not only that
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he was being treated unjustly by God, but that he could get no
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explanation from him. Jonah's anger over Nineveh's
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repentance and the death of the shade giving vine was
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inappropriate. Twice the Lord asked him, Is it
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right for you to be angry? The prophet Jeremiah grew angry
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with God because of his persecution and the lack of
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response to his preaching. But he went too far when he
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accused God of lying. Immediately God told him to
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repent and stop uttering foolish words.
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That is where Job ended up. Though his suffering caused many
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questions and anguish, he went too far when he insisted that he
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had a right to an explanation. In the end, God spoke to Job and
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set him straight. God had the right to question
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Job, not the other way around. Job realized he had been
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arrogant and that his anger was unjustified.
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When confronted by the awesomeness of God, Job
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repented. Severe and sudden calamity is no
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more a sign of God's disfavor than sustained prosperity
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indicating God's approval and blessing.
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But in the next life, God will balance the scales and make
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right all that has been perverted by sin here on earth.
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God is not guilty of neglect, but He may allow suffering to
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accomplish His greater purposes, which are often beyond human
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comprehension. Who was given the land?
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The fathers of the wise men, meaning the patriarchs,
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beginning with Abraham. What kind of torment do the
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wicked suffer? I'll if as was Speaking of
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psychological torment, guilt for sin, insecurity, lack of peace,
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and fear of death and judgment. He painted a dark picture of
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inner life of the wicked. Ultimately, the wicked will be
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judged by God at the end of the age, and that's found in
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Revelation 20. Verses 11 through 15 were Job's
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troubles like those that come to the wicked.
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Iliffa's intent was to shake Job up.
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He painted a terrifying picture of judgement on the wicked.
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It was supposed to motivate Job to confess his sins.
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Job's friends had already tried and convicted him, and now they
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pronounce judgement. Their theory was filled with
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many half truths. The wicked would be punished.
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True enough, but that didn't mean that Job was being punished
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or that he was wicked. In actual fact, Job was
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blameless and upright. Was being fat associated with
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wealth? Yes, fatness in ancient Israel
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and in many poor nations today was a sign of wealth.
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It identified one who had more than enough food, did not have
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to work hard, and could live a life of leisure.
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Most people in the Middle East lived on the edge of starvation,
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eking out what they could in a harsh climate and from poor
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soil. Fatness then, was a symbol of
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prosperity and blessing. And that's the end of chapter
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15. So I will go on to read chapter
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16 job replies. I have heard many things like
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these. You are miserable comforters,
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all of you. Will your long winded speeches
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never end? What ails you that you keep on
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arguing? I I also could speak like you if
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I were in my place. I could make fine speeches
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against you and shake my head at you, but my mouth would
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encourage you. Comfort from my lips would bring
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you relief. Yet if I speak, my pain is not
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relieved, and if I refrain, it does not go away.
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Surely, God, you have worn me out.
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You have devastated my entire household.
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You have shriveled me up and and it has become a witness.
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My gauntness rises up and testifies against me.
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God assails me, and tears me in his anger, and gnashes his teeth
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at me. My opponent fasten fastens on me
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his piercing eyes. People open their mouths to jeer
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at me. They strike me on my cheek, and
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scorn and unite together against me.
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God has turned me over to the ungodly and thrown me into the
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clutches of the wicked. All was well with me, but He
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shattered me. He seized me by the neck and
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crushed me. He has made me his target.
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His Archers surround me without pity.
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He pierces my kidneys and spills my gall on the ground.
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Again and again He bursts upon me.
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He rushes at me like a warrior. I have sewed sackcloth over my
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skin and buried my brow in the dust.
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My face is red with weeping. Dark shadows wring my eyes, yet
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my hands have been free of violence and my prayer is pure
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earth. Do not cover my blood.
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May my cry never be laid to rest.
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Even now my witness is in heaven.
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My advocate is on high. My intercessor is my friend.
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As my eyes pour out tears to God on behalf of a man, he pleads
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with God as one pleads for a friend.
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Only a few years will pass before I take the path of no
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return. It continues, so I'm going to
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keep reading into 17. My spirit is broken.
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My days are cut short. The grave awaits me.
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Surely mockers surround me. My eyes must dwell on their
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hostility. All of that that I just read
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kind of reminds me of what Jesus eventually experienced on the
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cross when he was suffering the wrath of God on our behalf.
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But those verses in Job, they really do sound like similar to
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what Jesus experienced verses 11 on down in chapter 16.
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We're in 17 now, so Job says, give me, O God, the pledge you
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demand. Who else will put up security
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for me? You close their minds to
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understanding, therefore you will not let them triumph.
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If anyone denounces their friends for reward, the eyes of
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their children will fail. God has made me a byword to
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everyone. A man in whose face people spit.
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Now that even happened to Jesus. My eyes have grown dim with
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grief. My whole frame is but a shadow.
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The upright are appalled at this.
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The innocent are aroused against the ungodly.
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Nevertheless the righteous will hold to their ways, and those
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with clean hands will grow stronger.
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But come on, all of you, try again.
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I will not find a wise man among you.
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My days have passed, my plans are shattered, yet the desires
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of my heart turn night into day in the face of darkness.
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Light is near. If the only home I hope for is
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the grave, if I spread out my bed in the realm of darkness, if
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I say to corruption you are my father, and to the worm my
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mother or my sister, then where then is my hope?
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Who can see any hope for me? Will it go down to the gates of
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death? Will we descend together into
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dust? And that's the end of Job's
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speech in chapter 17. So I will read chapters 16 and
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17, the questions and answers, and then I'll just wrap this
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podcast up. So what was the purpose of
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endless pain? Or what is the purpose of
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endless pain? The purposes of pain are hidden
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in God's wisdom. The great heroes of the Bible
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all seem to have suffered. Sometimes pain brought people
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like Jacob when he wrestled with God to yield their pride.
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So it does seem like whenever there's pain present, there is a
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lesson to be learned, and God wants us to learn something from
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it. So the important part was to
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kind of what Job was doing seeking from God, except that he
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just demanded an answer. But I think if we were seeking
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God, he would respond, and he would.
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He does eventually let Job know, but I don't know.
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Anyway, it does seem like God always has a purpose when
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there's suffering involved and we may not understand it, but
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maybe that's what God wants us to do is seek him to find out
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why. Why is this happening?
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It could be like Job. It could be a righteous person
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that is suffering because of being tested, or it could be a
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consequence of something like here.
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It's talking about Jacob. He to yield his pride.
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He had too much pride, and so he wrestled with God.
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Jeremiah's unending pain and incurable wound drove him back
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to God's call. So that's interesting.
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Pain showed the apostle Paul that his sufficiency was in
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Christ. Perhaps pain's greatest lesson
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is obedience learned through suffering.
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I guess if we're stubborn then we have to learn by pain.
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Was God angry? Job thought so.
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Often we feel this way when God seems to be treating us
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unfairly. In reality, God was not angry
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with Job. God was testing him.
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Such subtle distinctions are hard to sort out while facing
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severe suffering. However, in the process of
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refining our faith, God often chooses to keep his purposes
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hidden. I guess that's true.
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If God didn't reveal it, then we wouldn't necessarily still
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suffer, and maybe we need that suffering in order to accomplish
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God's will or purpose for the suffering that He allowed to
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happen. Who were these people?
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Job's persecutors were not named, but since Job knew God
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was in control of his destiny, he believed God had turned him
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over to them. From a human standpoint, Job's
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persecuted seemed to be God's instruments, and that is usually
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the case. I mean, God uses other people,
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He uses kingdoms. He sometimes uses ungodly
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kingdoms against his own when his own need to be disciplined.
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So what did Pierce kidneys and spilled gall symbolize?
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This is a poetic description of the intensity of Job's pain.
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His suffering was comparable to having his organs cut apart.
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What makes prayer pure? Pure motives.
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Job said his prayers were sincere.
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He was honestly seeking answers from God with without ulterior
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motives. He was not lying to God.
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His heart was clean. Who pled Job's case before God?
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Job may have met himself since he appealed to God on his own
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behalf. The though his prayer or through
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his prayer he brought his case before God.
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Another view is that Job longed for and expressed confidence
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that he would have a heavenly mediator to stand between him
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and God, which we know is Jesus. But he didn't then.
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So why did Job want a pledge from God?
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Job wanted assurance that he would ultimately be vindicated.
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As he saw his life ebbing away, he became desperate for some
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word of affirmation from God. What was a byword, an object of
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notoriety, a nickname or term of verbal abuse.
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Apparently Job's reputation, because of his severe suffering,
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preceded him. He was an object of scorn and
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ridicule. What appalled people so much?
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The conflict between Job's apparent innocence and his
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horrifying suffering. The suffering of righteous
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people can cause others to wonder what might befall them.
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In this case, their bewilderment was partly due to physical
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horror of Job's suffering and partly due to their confusion
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about how they thought life was supposed to work.
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Job's suffering violated their theology that good people were
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supposed to be blessed while wicked people were supposed to
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be punished. How had Job's friends brought
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light? Job may have been using sarcasm
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here. Yes, I'm sure he was.
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It was just like his friends to speak of cheer in the middle of
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tragedy. Or Job may have been Speaking of
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the futility of his friends who were trying admirably to to
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cheer him up. It really didn't seem like they
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were cheering him up. I don't know what hope is there
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for the discouraged or depressed.
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Our hope is in the reality that we are not alone.
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God is present with us even in the depths of our despair.
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We also need to be reminded that we also need to be reminded that
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stretches of depression or discouragement are not
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permanent, but only for a season.
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However long the season may seem, our ultimate hope rests in
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God, who will one day wipe away every tear.
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Why were Job's friends so intent on getting him to come to his
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senses? Rather than sympathizing and
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commiserating with him, they saw Job as their opponent in a
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gigantic theological debate. Determined to win, they pounded
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away at his faults. The issue at stake was their
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pride. And God hates pride.
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That's one of the seven things that God hates.
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How was Job tearing himself to pieces?
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Bildad was using sarcasm, throwing Job's words back in his
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faith face. Job had accused God of tearing
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him to pieces, but Bildad was trying to set the record
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straight. He claimed that Job was tearing
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himself to pieces by refusing to admit the many charges against
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him. And that's where we will wrap
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up. And I don't really have much
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more to say except you can see how unproductive this arguing
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back and forth is. But we have several more
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chapters. I think we have like 20 more
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chapters to go through like this.
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So hang in there. If you're not subscribed, please
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subscribe. If you thought this was
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beneficial, share it with somebody else and come back next
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time for Chapter 18. Thank you.