Latest / It's Open with Ilana Glazer / Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson

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Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson · It's Open with Ilana Glazer

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to It's Open with Alana Glazer.
0:01
SPEAKER_01: Hi, thank you for joining me and us today.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, I had such a great conversation with Dr.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson that I'm very excited to share with you.
0:09
SPEAKER_01: She is the author of What If We Get It Right?
0:13
SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: And she's talking about the earth, baby.
0:16
SPEAKER_01: She is a marine biologist and the leading uh voice in culture on climate solutions.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't help but ask her, Dr.
0:24
SPEAKER_01: Johnson, are we fucked?
0:26
SPEAKER_01: And the answer may surprise you.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Come on in.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: It's open.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: Ayana, thank you for joining me today.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm an absolute pleasure.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, we've been friends for a while now, maybe five or six years from the neighborhood in Brooklyn uh where you've you grew up.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: But you have since moved to Maine.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: I feel great about that.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: Holy moly.
0:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm actually trying to write um an essay about that for a magazine.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Just like because part of the reason is climate change.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, where do you want to be?
1:07
SPEAKER_00: Where feel safe?
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Where do you want to build community?
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, where do you want to put down roots?
1:10
SPEAKER_00: Like knowing everything that I know.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: And like for people who do have the freedom of choice, which is not very many, sadly, like what are some good places to be?
1:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do we even think about that when the past is like no longer the perfect proxy for the future?
1:26
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I just went straight in on it.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: When the past, let me just like catch up.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: In the past is no longer the perfect proxy for the future, which I suppose within our entire lifetimes has been a lie, a lie narrative, right?
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, everything's changing so quickly, right?
1:41
SPEAKER_00: Like when I grew up in Brooklyn, we had snow days in a different way, right?
1:46
SPEAKER_00: We had to wear turtlenecks under our Halloween costumes and coats over them.
1:51
SPEAKER_00: We're always arguing with our moms about like how many layers we had to wear because we're ruining our costume.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: And now it's like 70 degrees on Halloween, right?
1:58
SPEAKER_00: It's just a totally different climate.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: Literally, we're in this different phase of life on Earth, hotter than it's ever been in human history.
2:09
SPEAKER_00: And all this extreme weather.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: And so the question is like, well, we can't just assume that everything's gonna be the same and we can just like putter along.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Something's gotta give, right?
2:20
SPEAKER_00: We have to shift, we have to adapt our lives to the world as it now is.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like most people are a little slow jumping on that.
2:33
SPEAKER_01: I um I think of I think of you as someone who has done life-saving, planet-saving work for so many years.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: I had perhaps like fantasized about this move as like she's doing it for herself, taking back the earth for herself.
2:50
SPEAKER_00: Also, yes.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, cool.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: I just need to have green out of every window.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: And you know, Maine's got the ocean and the mountains and the forests and all these practical humans with real world skills.
3:04
SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, I think this is a good place to be.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: How's it how's it feel?
3:10
SPEAKER_01: You lived in New York City your whole life, right?
3:12
SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
3:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, through high school and then left and lived around the Caribbean in California and DC and Boston and um came back and then we met, and I was like, well, I've met the last person I needed to meet in New York.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: I let me just bounce.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, and my mom and I moved in together and she brought her her chickens.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: So we've got a little um kind of homestead thing going on.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: What's the community like where you live in Maine?
3:40
SPEAKER_00: It's so funny because the the primary thing I think about is that the whole state is a community.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: Like there are twice as many people in the borough of Brooklyn as there are in the entire state of Maine.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: So the whole state is kind of like one town in a way, right?
3:57
SPEAKER_01: Um does it feel that way if you drive from one spot to a whole other spot?
4:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's a lot of diversity across the state in ecosystems, in um industries that are present, right?
4:10
SPEAKER_00: But it's um everyone's like one degree of separation or two at the max.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: So there's an intimacy there that's really sweet and also an accountability.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Like you gotta like not be a jerk.
4:23
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: Because everyone will know.
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: And Maine is um, I think this is true, maybe the first state that's been like really pumping the brakes on data centers until we have a plan for where all this electricity is gonna come from.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, Maine has high electric bills already.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, people are really concerned.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: And that's actually been one of the most exciting new sort of social activist things to watch because it came out of nowhere, and it could so easily have been like we all just sleepwalk into this AI era, and people were like, actually, we're not super down with these huge data centers in our communities using all our electricity, polluting the air as they like fire up gas turbines and using all of our drinking water while taking away our jobs.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: Pause on this.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
5:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so a bunch of states are doing that now.
5:20
SPEAKER_00: But Maine's, yeah, charging ahead on all sorts of um creative legislation.
5:26
SPEAKER_00: Just passed a bill for plug-in solar so people can like plug in solar panels at their house enough to go through like crazy permitting stuff.
5:33
SPEAKER_00: Just really practical approach, I think, to like what makes sense in terms of policy.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: The practical minutia is what gets me so excited.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: That is what I'm loving about Mayor Zoran Ramdani's uh track record so far.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: The minutia, the four-foot shoveled sidewalks, the pothole filling.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: The pothole filling.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: It's been a bummer for a lot of us that he hasn't really talked about climate that much.
6:03
SPEAKER_00: Like pushing for public transit, obviously, great climate solution.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: We love bikes, we love buses, subways, all of that.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: Like that's great.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: But he hasn't really he's talked about it all through the lens of affordability and not so much about like also this is good for the earth, which is good for the humans, and the most vulnerable ones are the ones who get screwed the most by climate change.
6:28
SPEAKER_00: So and he and his track record is one of like very strong advocacy for climate, but in this political moment, he has just chosen not to emphasize that or talk about it.
6:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's part of this like trend of green hushing that we're seeing.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: It used to be like greenwashing, like companies pretending to do all this good stuff that they weren't was like nonsense.
6:49
SPEAKER_00: And now it's like people aren't even talking about it at all, um, which is a problem because the majority of Americans are like super concerned and got it, would like to see politicians do more.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: But there's always a question of like how do you win versus how do you govern?
7:06
SPEAKER_00: Fundamentally, just get it done, right?
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Like do the work.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: Um the the question is like how do we build momentum from place to place?
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Also, it is an affordability issue because solar is cheaper than oil and gas in most scenarios now.
7:23
SPEAKER_00: Like the economics of it make sense.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: Like we need more solar and energy and storage, battery storage to go with it, right?
7:29
SPEAKER_00: Like that's the future.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: And wind and geothermal, right?
7:33
SPEAKER_00: There's all these other options, but like that's the economics pan out for that, right?
7:39
SPEAKER_00: It's like Texas and Iowa have the highest rates of wind, um, and Texas has like the highest solar, like along with California.
7:48
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: It's not because they're like a bunch of hippies, it's because it's making them money and it makes financial sense.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: So you there's this false assumption that like to do the pro-Earth thing is to sacrifice profitability or affordability, but it's just not true.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: Like it's just straight up not true, especially in the crisis we're in now, the war in Iran, where prices are going through the roof, and everyone who has an EV is like, great.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Right?
8:21
SPEAKER_01: I I just want to like really understand.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: You're saying what I'm hearing first is that the messaging like makes what we're doing in New York City scalable.
8:29
SPEAKER_01: But also you're just like, um, represent.
8:31
SPEAKER_01: Is that is that really the vibe?
8:32
SPEAKER_01: Like, hello, I'm not hearing anything about this.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, there's also this big question mark about whether New York City right now is gonna go back on its promise as a sorry, as a state, New York is gonna go back on its promise to um decarbonize, right?
8:47
SPEAKER_00: To shift to renewable energy.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: And like, I haven't heard Mayor Mamdani say anything about like, no, we need to stick to this.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: Got it.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: And I get that he's like building an alliance with the governor, and like I'm sure there's a lot of strategy going on around it.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but like we gotta keep plowing ahead on our climate goals instead of just letting them fall by the wayside without even a public conversation happening about that.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: There is actually urgency.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: And we have, I mean, I think to take a step back, I feel like the one thing I want people to understand about climate change is we have the solutions we need.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Like we know how to transition to clean energy.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: We know how to do public transit and you know, electrify our transit.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: We know to do green buildings, we know how to improve our agriculture, we know to protect and restore ecosystems.
9:37
SPEAKER_00: It's not like we need to wait for magic or fusion or whatever, right?
9:43
SPEAKER_00: We could just do it.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: And it truly is this challenge of political will, just not being there, um, and having like an entire political party in this country that's like climate denial as a core policy and drill baby drill in their literal GOP platform.
10:02
SPEAKER_00: And the other piece of it is your fault.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: It's your people, it's the culture part.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, we just don't have enough people talking about the challenge, but also specifically the solutions and helping people see that making those solutions happen in the world like leads to a better world for all of us.
10:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, who doesn't want cleaner air and cleaner water and like green jobs and all the good stuff that comes with addressing this head on?
10:32
SPEAKER_00: And I just I so in this like midterm election moment, I'm like, vote for people who get it on climate, please.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Like pick a campaign and help win it, right?
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Up and down the ballot.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: Like school board, who's who's approving?
10:49
SPEAKER_00: Like, do kids get to learn about climate in school?
10:52
SPEAKER_00: And your city council deciding whether to invest in municipal composting and bike lanes and all that stuff.
10:59
SPEAKER_00: It all is super important.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: All these people with cultural influence are not talking about it.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, they're not talking about climate.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: They're just not.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, a few people here and there, but like it's not in movies.
11:12
SPEAKER_00: We have the apocalyptic versions of the future.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: We don't have that's right.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: That's right, as is my greatest wish, the rom-com with the hot shirtless solar installer, right?
11:22
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like you could miss it.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: It's as if it's not happening because it's not reflected in like the cultural products that are reaching the most people.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: Yes, because also TV and film has so taken such a sharp right turn into uh fascist propaganda in so many cases.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: I was just watching Landman.
11:45
SPEAKER_00: Have you seen this by the same people who did Yellowstone?
11:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like about the oil and gas industry and sort of like how amazing they are, how much they've done for our country.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: I thought you were saying the opposite.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: And there's like this scene with this environmentalist who's like a total dork who uh like has nothing to say as he's like, well, oil is the way and like all this stuff.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: And it's just that is scary.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: It's really scary because all the representations of environmentalists we have in Fieldman TV, they're usually like annoying nerds.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: Like you don't want to invite to a party.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, can someone please be a cool environmentalist on the television?
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Please.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: Is it up to you and you alone?
12:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm hosting dance parties in aquariums around the country as my book tour, right?
12:34
SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, read the book when you get around to it.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: But like for now, I want you to meet other people in your community who care.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Right.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe meet your new climate bestie on the dance floor.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
12:45
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15:52
SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about your book.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: What if we get it right?
15:56
SPEAKER_01: Visions of Climate Futures.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: This is your second book, but the first you've penned all your own.
16:01
SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so all we can save when we met that came out because I like randomly DM'd you on Instagram and was like, hey, could you read some essays for this audiobook?
16:11
SPEAKER_01: That was such a good experience.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: I loved it so much.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: And the book is so good and it aches with beauty and hope.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, what is what if we get it right about?
16:24
SPEAKER_00: It is that simple question of like, what kind of future do we want to live in and how do we get there?
16:32
SPEAKER_00: And I came up with this question, and then I was so intimidated by the enormity of the question, I was like, ah! And then I avoided writing the book for like two years.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
16:42
SPEAKER_00: And then realized the answer was phone a friend.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, I know all these amazing people across agriculture and environmental law and finance and technology and policy and community organizing.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: And I should just ask them what they think.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: And so the book, the heart of it, is 20 interviews with all these experts that are like abridged transcribed.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: And so it's very conversational.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: So it's a thick one, but it's a quick read because it's thick but quick.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: Chat.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: We like chatty.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Rolling Stone calls it the most helpful book on the planet right now for dreamers, doers, and anyone concerned with Earth's rising temperatures.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: That should be most people, I would say.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: That is probably most people.
17:28
SPEAKER_01: So Dr.
17:30
SPEAKER_01: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Yes, ma'am.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: We fucked.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: This is a question I get a lot.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: And the answer is like, it depends what we do.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Right?
17:41
SPEAKER_00: Because we have the climate solutions we need, essentially.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: Are we gonna do them or not?
17:46
SPEAKER_00: And how quickly are we gonna implement them?
17:48
SPEAKER_00: And how justly are we gonna implement them?
17:50
SPEAKER_00: That's gonna decide what kind of world we get.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: What is the most exciting solution?
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Talking about like digging into minutiae and loving it as a fucking nerd.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: What's one solution you love?
18:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, could we protect and restore wetlands?
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Talk about it.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: They absorb three to five times more carbon per acre than a tropical forest.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: They're protecting our shorelines.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: They are habitat for so many other species.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, and they can actually like grow in some cases to keep up with rising sea levels.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: How do you do it?
18:22
SPEAKER_00: They just you just protect them and like you can restore them, like replant.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: So, but there's like 15% of the original wetlands that are still intact in the New York area.
18:32
SPEAKER_00: And that bit that was left prevented over$600 million in damage.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: So, like it really matters that we do that, that we protect and restore those ecosystems.
18:43
SPEAKER_00: And yes, I love solar panels and electric cars and like networked geothermal.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not anti-technology.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: Those solutions are incredibly valuable.
18:54
SPEAKER_00: And we need to build more transmission lines and like battery storage and all of it, right?
18:59
SPEAKER_00: But nature is a huge part of the solution, and we often forget that in our food system as well.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: Like reducing food waste is a huge climate solution, eating a plant-based diet, these are like in the top 10, like if if we shift culture, society.
19:18
SPEAKER_01: I just want to kind of like capture and hold one second, like some things you've already said, which is that we have the solutions that we need.
19:26
SPEAKER_01: It's just a matter of a timeline and fighting like bad people, essentially, who are in positions of power.
19:32
SPEAKER_01: But also, like I'm hearing jobs and profitability.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: I just really want people to understand that we basically have the climate solutions we need and that they are affordable, right?
19:44
SPEAKER_00: Like we solar is cheaper than oil, right?
19:47
SPEAKER_00: Like we could just have solar panels capturing photons, powering our lives, storing that in batteries overnight, right?
19:54
SPEAKER_00: Um we have all these, there's more jobs in renewable energy than in coal for sure, right?
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: There is this opportunity to shift to an economy based on renewable energy.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: And the transition is happening.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Like most of the new electricity that's been brought onto the grid in the last few years is renewable in terms of like newly added sources of electricity.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: So that's the direction we're going in.
20:19
SPEAKER_00: It's just a question of like how much is the fossil fuel lobby and all the politicians in their pocket gonna slow us down.
20:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's like a question of speed and who's gonna benefit from it, right?
20:32
SPEAKER_01: President Joseph R.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Biden was on paper the most progressive climate president in our history.
20:39
SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
20:40
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the inflation reduction act that he championed was the largest investment in clean energy, in climate solutions, not just in American history, but in world history.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Like hundreds of billions of dollars going into clean energy, all of these tax credits for people to install heat pumps and um like reduce draftiness of their homes to insulate their attics, get more efficient windows, et cetera.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: And the Republican Congress came in um with Trump and just like canceled all of that early, right?
21:18
SPEAKER_00: We had started the American Climate Corps.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: Like putting young people to work on climate solutions across the country.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: Starting at$90,000 a year.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: I is that true?
21:31
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: Shout out to Maggie Thomas for making that happen.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Love you, Maggie.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, doing that work of restoring wetlands, of managing wildfire risk, of helping people put solar panels on community centers, right?
21:42
SPEAKER_00: Like the kinds of stuff that our taxpayer dollars should be supporting, that kind of a program, right?
21:49
SPEAKER_00: And you're training the next generation of leaders with like practical problem solving, like building our future world opportunities.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: And so to see See all of that get rolled back in the last year has been infuriating and heartbreaking because, like, we had all this momentum, right?
22:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's been a major, major setback.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: And of course, losing thousands of um PhD scientists across the federal government who had all the knowledge of detailed information and like decades of research to help inform our policy making, right?
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Literally sick here.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: I'm literally like getting sick, hearing about it.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm like nauseous and having like whatever esophageal burning reflex.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: It's so, it's so when I was updating this book for the paperback edition, I had to add all these footnotes that were like the most depressing set of edits you could possibly have to make.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, this program doesn't exist anymore, this funding doesn't exist anymore, like the Supreme Court just decided this shitty thing.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Jesus Christ.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: These statistics are updated in the wrong direction.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: But it still remains true that we have the solutions we need.
23:03
SPEAKER_00: And that so much can get done at a local level.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: And I am such, I am annoyingly persistently optimistic, but I have to say, if we had that blueprint there and these scientists exist, they weren't eliminated from uh existence.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: As soon as we get the power back, we can re-implement these things.
23:25
SPEAKER_01: I know it's like so dumb and like Pollyanna to say, but I'm like dumb.
23:27
SPEAKER_00: So I just like reinterviewed um Abby Dillon.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: Abby runs Earth Justice that like sues the federal government for violating its own environmental laws, basically.
23:38
SPEAKER_00: Um like the Clean Air Act.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: No, we actually have a right to clean air, you guys, you gotta enforce this, etc.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: And so they, in addition to suing this administration, are doing what's called Project Phoenix, which is, you know, the mythical bird rising from the ashes.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: If they're gonna burn it all down, what are we going to rebuild?
24:00
SPEAKER_00: And so this is absolutely a time for that kind of imagining, right?
24:06
SPEAKER_00: If we are being forced into a bit of a blank slate, like let's be creative about the kinds of policies, laws, regulations, um, societal structures that would help us get to where we need to go.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of organizations are in this, you know, um, doing their the split between like the defensive work of like hold the line as much as we can and like planning for the next window of opportunity to open or to you know force it open.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Because there are some things people agree on, like across the political spectrum, people want clean water and they don't want a lot of data centers in their communities, right?
24:49
SPEAKER_00: And they want the green jobs, um, no matter who they vote for, they want those good jobs in their communities.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's a lot of opportunities still to move things forward, and we got to just like find that possibility.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: When you say across the political spectrum, I think um politicians, and then I'm like, no, you mean the people.
25:10
SPEAKER_01: No, the people want voters want mostly the same thing, I think.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: No, it wouldn't go quite that far.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's like a serious drill baby drill contingent of voters.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: The Republican Party.
25:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Of Republicans, almost like an own the libs backlash kind of thing.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: It's just a violent thing.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: Making fun of people for caring about the future of life on Earth, I guess.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: And there's like, it's very gendered too.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Men like polling shows are just like far less concerned about climate.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: There's a whole like petromasculinity, like big car, least fuel efficient car, trucks you're never gonna actually put anything in the bed of.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: I learned this from uh from Liz Plank's book called For the Love of Men.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: There's a study on just men are less likely to want to carry a reusable bag for their groceries because it's like, and I'm just like, how are we gonna get anything done if it's like emasculating to carry the canvas back?
26:12
SPEAKER_01: This thing of petromasculinity.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: So for them, it's like the more destructive they are using fossil fuels that we know are bad for the earth, the more masculine they feel.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like the how big a steak can you eat is like in the same kind of zone of thinking, right?
26:30
SPEAKER_00: That like that's the manly thing.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: But all of this is culture, right?
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Right?
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Like what who are the people telling us what's cool and what's aspirational, right?
26:41
SPEAKER_00: We've got a world of influencers who are leading us in exactly the wrong direction, right?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Toward um consumerism and just like high impact lifestyles, huge houses, huge wardrobes, so many cars, so much stuff, right?
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Right, um no regard for like the impact of that and the impact of inspiring other people to aspire to that.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: I think um, you know, we're watching the patriarchy melt.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: We're watching it unravel.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And I do think we're birthing a new world, no matter how gruesome it is.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's what um the author and thought leader Bell Hooks called the white supremacist, imperialist, misogynist, racist, capitalist patriarchy.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: She would name all the things to show how many systems are really this one system.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: And there's, I think, or at least in my world, I'm feeling women rise up and femmes rise up to see that like what is is not working.
27:58
SPEAKER_01: And women do have the solutions.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Women are the ones, as you're saying, uh, per Liz Planck's book, who care the most about cares protecting the earth.
28:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Yale Center for Climate Communication, George Mason have been doing polling for years, and like women just are more concerned about the future of this planet, um, how livable it is, which is bizarre because we all live here.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like we need everyone.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: So it's not like dudes out of the way, women got this.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: It's like, come on, everyone come in, like, find where you fit in.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: And like, we need a million more electricians in this country to make the clean energy transition, which is a great paying job and definitely masculine coded.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: So, like, come on.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like welcome, let's do this.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: How have you seen the role of women in climate science change over the course of your career?
28:53
SPEAKER_00: In climate science, um, there's so many incredible women, climate scientists.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: You know, like when I started commenting, it's like, you're the girl on the lineup, you're the girl in the improv group.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Were you the girl in the room when you were studying climate science, or was it I was studying, so my PhD is in marine biology, obviously the ocean, a very big part of our climate system.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: A third of the solutions are found in the ocean.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Um and that has had this generational shift where a lot of the professors are men, but a lot of the students and early career people are women.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: There's been sort of like an a gender inflection, like most science PhD worlds, very masculine.
29:36
SPEAKER_00: And now it's much, many, many more women up and down.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in that one.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: What would you say to a young woman, or I'm sure you do talk to young women all the time in the space, but like what do you say to young women when you are in a role to sort of advise or guide young women in climate justice and climate science?
29:56
SPEAKER_00: Young women have been leading this era of the climate movement, right?
30:00
SPEAKER_00: People are familiar with Greta Thunberg, but there are so many.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the majority of the people involved in youth climate work, it's girls, right?
30:10
SPEAKER_00: Like they are literally leading the way forward and shaking grown-ups and saying, like, you better get on board with this.
30:18
SPEAKER_00: This is our future, and you're setting it on fire.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: And that moral clarity that young people are bringing to this work is so critical, like holding older generations accountable and saying, you can't just look to us to solve this problem you created.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Like, we we actually need you to engage deeply and be a part of the solutions with us.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: Like all generations have a role to play in making this transition.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think that's the first thing that young women, girls need to know is like, you guys have already been leading on this.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: So keep it up, obsessed, bring your friends.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: How do you turn it off?
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Literally, what do you do in your day-to-day to be like, okay, I'm a human being in one body right now.
30:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm just a person on the planet.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: How do you how do you rest?
31:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm not super great at that, but I'm working on it.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: I I would say I just go outside.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's so simple.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Just remembering that you are one human, part of one species.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: There are millions of species we're sharing this planet with.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Like, how can we be a better neighbor to all the other life on this planet?
31:28
SPEAKER_00: It sounds a little bit woo-woo, or but it's that it just feels like I want to be in an ecosystem.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: I want to be part of the web of life, right?
31:40
SPEAKER_00: And not ruin the web, right?
31:43
SPEAKER_00: I don't want our generation to be responsible for tearing that apart.
31:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: And so there's a lot of like um mending and reweaving and reconnecting that I think is happening and we need more of.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: And it can be so beautiful.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: Also for people to sign up to go to your dance parties.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: Oh, come dance with me.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: Is it getitrite.earth?
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's slash tour.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: Cool.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, who doesn't want to dance next to the kelp tank with the otters at the Monterey Bay Aquarium?
32:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: God, obviously.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: That's so fun.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: This would be so fun.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, Dr.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, author of What If We Get It Right.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining me today.
32:25
SPEAKER_01: And um, let's keep going together.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Let's get let's get it done.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Thank you to my guest today, Dr.
32:32
SPEAKER_01: Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: Ayanna wrote What If We Get It Right, and her website is getitright.earth.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: This has been a uh a solely human-made production.
32:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, this is also a Starfix production.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: And I want to thank my creative producers, David Rookland, Annika Carlson, Glenn Smahar, Kelsey Kiley, and Madeline Kim.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: I want to thank the people who made this episode look and sound so good today, Nicole Maupin, Louise Nostrella, and Kevin Deming.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: I want to thank our editor, Tova Liebowitz, who just cuts these episodes so good.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: I want to thank Ramo Ventura, who uh provided the beautiful graphics and opening musical sting, as well as Don Hur, who has created this beautiful outro music for the show.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: If you enjoy its open pod, like and subscribe because these are the little actions that make the difference in building the community.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for joining us today, and see you next time.