Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #756 Justin's Not-Boring Science Showdown

Transcript

#756 Justin's Not-Boring Science Showdown · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
0:09
Speaker 2: on answers.
0:10
Speaker 1: Now as a young man and even now as a
0:13
Speaker 1: dangerously close to fifty year old guy, my degree of
0:17
Speaker 1: interest in sensation seeking activities is massively higher than yours. Now,
0:23
Speaker 1: obviously we're talking about a sample size of one. But
0:26
Speaker 1: you don't want to do the crazy stuff that I
0:27
Speaker 1: want to do.
0:28
Speaker 3: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
0:32
Speaker 3: and dad. All right, so we're rolling. Are you ready?
0:34
Speaker 3: Let's do this?
0:35
Speaker 2: Do you really have to do? Doctor's Desk?
0:37
Speaker 3: I don't know why you don't like this.
0:39
Speaker 1: It is literally the best podcast episode that we do
0:42
Speaker 1: every month.
0:43
Speaker 2: You just need to say the name of the first
0:46
Speaker 2: journal article. Yeah, and you put me to sleep?
0:50
Speaker 1: Oh come on, don't be like okay, okay, so that
0:52
Speaker 1: we probably should do the intro. I'm doctor Justin Coulson,
0:55
Speaker 1: You're Coylie, Miss Corn.
0:57
Speaker 3: Yeah I am.
0:57
Speaker 1: And I'm just going to leave it here because that
0:59
Speaker 1: was very, very fun, and now everyone knows exactly how
1:02
Speaker 1: you feel about the podcast episode we're about to do today.
1:04
Speaker 1: This is literally the best podcast episode we do each month.
1:07
Speaker 1: And folks, this is what I have to deal with
1:09
Speaker 1: every single month. When we start to do this, we.
1:13
Speaker 2: Just need another doctor sitting in the chair.
1:15
Speaker 1: I'm going to read, as you've requested, the title of
1:18
Speaker 1: the two journal articles that we're going to be emphasizing
1:20
Speaker 1: in Today's Doctor's Desk podcast. If you're new to the podcast,
1:24
Speaker 1: Once a month I pull out a couple of articles
1:27
Speaker 1: that are relevant to research that I'm doing for a
1:29
Speaker 1: book or an article, or just parenting generally, stuff that
1:32
Speaker 1: I've come across that I think so interesting that I
1:34
Speaker 1: have to share it with you on the podcast and
1:35
Speaker 1: talk about it. And the first article that we're going
1:38
Speaker 1: to talk about today comes from Lawrence Steinberg, literally the
1:41
Speaker 1: world's leading authority on adolescence.
1:44
Speaker 3: Such a great article.
1:45
Speaker 1: The article is called sex Differences in the Developmental Trajectories
1:49
Speaker 1: of Impulse control and Sensation seeking from Early adolescents to
1:52
Speaker 1: early adulthood. It was published in the Journal of Youth
1:55
Speaker 1: and Adolescence.
1:56
Speaker 2: Is he trying to make up his word count?
1:58
Speaker 3: There's no word count? I think this is so.
2:01
Speaker 2: Do you remember when you were in high school and
2:03
Speaker 2: you had to write a five hundred word essay and
2:05
Speaker 2: you'd add a whole unnecessary words into your text you
2:09
Speaker 2: just to make up the word count.
2:13
Speaker 3: No, they make it so long. Well, I have listened
2:16
Speaker 3: to the title.
2:16
Speaker 1: The second one that we're going to do, antecedents of
2:18
Speaker 1: empathic capacity Emotion regulation styles as mediate is between controlling
2:23
Speaker 1: versus autonomy, supportive maternal.
2:24
Speaker 3: Practices, and empathy.
2:27
Speaker 2: This is.
2:31
Speaker 3: Who talks I miss academia. I really do. I love it.
2:37
Speaker 2: Do you ever hear anyone use those words in a
2:41
Speaker 2: normal day to day conversation?
2:43
Speaker 1: This is who you've married. Oh my god, So can
2:46
Speaker 1: we talk about them? Now that everyone knows where we're going. See,
2:49
Speaker 1: now that I've done that, people are probably switching the
2:51
Speaker 1: podcast off and just going, yeah, no, not for me today.
2:53
Speaker 1: These are really important studies. Okay if you have boys.
2:57
Speaker 1: If you have boys, the first study really matters a lot.
3:00
Speaker 1: And if you have children who you would like to
3:02
Speaker 1: have see more empathy in the second study is enormously important. Okay,
3:08
Speaker 1: there's so much Come on, I love you all right,
3:13
Speaker 1: here we go. So the first article from Steinberg, Shulman,
3:17
Speaker 1: also Harden and Chin, Journal of Youth and Adolescence. I'm
3:21
Speaker 1: just going to read a couple of lines out of
3:23
Speaker 1: the abstract and let's pull a couple of things out
3:24
Speaker 1: of it. This one is super important. So first of all,
3:27
Speaker 1: some context. We're looking at how males and females, and
3:31
Speaker 1: we're talking here about natal males, natal females, that is,
3:34
Speaker 1: born male, born female, how they develop their impulse control
3:40
Speaker 1: and their sensation seeking. So these are two separate ideas.
3:43
Speaker 1: Impulse control. I want to do that, but I'm able
3:46
Speaker 1: to control it. It's like inhibition regulation.
3:49
Speaker 2: So stereotypically, when you say those words, I think of boys.
3:53
Speaker 1: Yes, and rightly so, and the research would definitely bear
3:56
Speaker 1: that out. It's stereotypical, but it's true. Now distributions overlap
3:59
Speaker 1: a lot of girls that struggle with impulse control, but
4:02
Speaker 1: only the ones the majority of them don't compared to
4:06
Speaker 1: relative to boys the same age. In fact, there's some
4:09
Speaker 1: incredible data in this study that's going to blow your mind.
4:11
Speaker 1: I'll come to that in a second, blow your mind.
4:13
Speaker 1: So impulse control develops differently to sensation seeking. They had
4:17
Speaker 1: different trajectories. Let me ask you, even before I dive
4:21
Speaker 1: into the article, what would you anticipate would be the
4:23
Speaker 1: trajectory of impulse control for males females both either neither,
4:28
Speaker 1: whatever you like. How does impulse control develop.
4:32
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is what you're looking for,
4:34
Speaker 2: but I would suggest that girls develop impulse control a
4:39
Speaker 2: lot earlier than boys do.
4:40
Speaker 1: Definitely, And we're going to get to some incredible data
4:43
Speaker 1: shortly on that.
4:44
Speaker 2: And then, you know, we've had conversations in the past.
4:47
Speaker 2: You add alcohol to the equation and.
4:50
Speaker 1: Okay, so we're not going to get into that in
4:51
Speaker 1: today's podcast. That's adding a level of complexity that goes
4:55
Speaker 1: beyond what this research was about. But if so, you're
4:59
Speaker 1: identifying that in terms of the trajectory of impulse control development,
5:02
Speaker 1: girls develop earlier than boys. Would you say that it
5:05
Speaker 1: continues to just grow step by step by step. Does
5:08
Speaker 1: it go up and down and fluctuate or is it
5:11
Speaker 1: a fairly steady rise in impulse control as kids grow.
5:13
Speaker 2: I don't really know the answer to that. I think
5:16
Speaker 2: girls in general are actually more people pleases, which is
5:20
Speaker 2: why their impulse control actually lessens earlier on.
5:23
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, what about sensation seeking? Who seeks sensation
5:28
Speaker 1: more boys or girls?
5:29
Speaker 2: Boys?
5:30
Speaker 3: Yeah?
5:30
Speaker 1: Okay, so decades of research would support that. Once again,
5:33
Speaker 1: does sensation seeking just keep on going up as we
5:36
Speaker 1: get older? Is it incrementally up and down roller coaster ride.
5:40
Speaker 1: What would you anticipate.
5:41
Speaker 2: I think that as you mature, generally speaking, that sensation
5:47
Speaker 2: seeking would lessen over time. But I think it's a
5:49
Speaker 2: maturity thing.
5:50
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to talk about what the shows in
5:53
Speaker 1: just a second. Let me tell you about this study.
5:56
Speaker 1: So essentially, what Shulman, Steinberg and colleagues have said is
6:00
Speaker 1: that it's been proposed that we see high rates of
6:04
Speaker 1: risk taking in adolescence partly because of the neurobiological development's
6:09
Speaker 1: going on. It's a brain development issue, right, and as
6:12
Speaker 1: your brain develops more, you become less inclined to seek sensations.
6:17
Speaker 1: That's the overall general proposal.
6:19
Speaker 3: Now, there's some really.
6:20
Speaker 1: Clever research that highlights that there are some big holes,
6:22
Speaker 1: some big flaws with that argument, but that's what most
6:25
Speaker 1: people will fall back on as a stereotype.
6:28
Speaker 3: That's what we'll accept.
6:30
Speaker 1: And as a result of the lack of neurobiological development,
6:34
Speaker 1: kids are more likely to seek seek sensations and also
6:37
Speaker 1: have lower impulse control. Impulse control is still developing. Then, Okay,
6:41
Speaker 1: what these researchers we're trying to do is get access
6:45
Speaker 1: to really good data showing whether the pattern's the same
6:47
Speaker 1: for boys and girls, males and females, And so they
6:50
Speaker 1: got a really good sized number, eight and a half
6:53
Speaker 1: thousand people into this study, and what they essentially found
6:56
Speaker 1: was that sensation seeking rise and falls, It goes up
7:02
Speaker 1: and then it drops off. As you said, with maturity,
7:06
Speaker 1: impulse control continues to increase into the twenties. What they found, though,
7:11
Speaker 1: as you've also highlighted, is that males exhibit higher levels
7:16
Speaker 1: of sensation seeking and also lower levels of impulse controlled.
7:20
Speaker 2: Do they know why.
7:21
Speaker 1: Compared to females. We think that it's well, yes, there's
7:25
Speaker 1: a couple of reasons. Number one, females start puberty earlier.
7:30
Speaker 1: Females are more neurologically mature, Like we know that by
7:35
Speaker 1: the time they're about eighteen, girls are as much as
7:38
Speaker 1: two years.
7:39
Speaker 3: More neurologically advanced.
7:40
Speaker 1: There's also some socialization stuff going on, but I think
7:44
Speaker 1: it goes into a there's a whole lot more happening,
7:46
Speaker 1: things like testosterone. This is the hormone that genuinely dominates
7:53
Speaker 1: and divides males from females. It's such an important hormone.
7:57
Speaker 1: So there's hormones, there's brain development. This is a really
8:00
Speaker 1: highly vulnerable time, and it seems as though risk taking
8:05
Speaker 1: during adolescence is greater in magnitude and also lasts for
8:09
Speaker 1: a whole lot longer in boys than girls.
8:13
Speaker 2: So tell me what age is impulse control at its lowest.
8:17
Speaker 1: What's I think really fascinating about this research is when
8:21
Speaker 1: we look at both males and females together, impulse control
8:25
Speaker 1: drops from the age of ten through until around about
8:28
Speaker 1: the age of fourteen and fifteen, Okay, when we look
8:30
Speaker 1: at the entire population together, and then it increases slowly
8:35
Speaker 1: back up until the age of twenty five, where it's
8:37
Speaker 1: at its highest in this study. I would imagine it
8:39
Speaker 1: continues to increase even after the age of twenty five,
8:42
Speaker 1: but that wasn't researched. What's fascinating to me, though, is
8:46
Speaker 1: the difference between males and females on impulse control.
8:51
Speaker 2: Get this, Are you about to blow my mind?
8:54
Speaker 3: I'm about to blow your mind.
8:56
Speaker 1: I'm looking right now at the female male grid and
9:01
Speaker 1: comparing it to the male and what it shows, Kylie,
9:04
Speaker 1: is that a twenty five year old male exhibits the
9:08
Speaker 1: same level of impulse control as a ten year old female.
9:13
Speaker 1: I'm not kidding, I'm legit. Look at you. This is
9:17
Speaker 1: fair income.
9:18
Speaker 2: At EBS explains so much.
9:20
Speaker 1: Okay, So to put this into context, that twenty five
9:24
Speaker 1: year old male is showing a slightly higher level of
9:26
Speaker 1: impulse control than a fourteen or fifteen year old female
9:29
Speaker 1: because remember I said impulse control drops for both males
9:31
Speaker 1: and females from the age of ten down to about
9:35
Speaker 1: fourteen fifteen. But here's the fascinating thing. For females, their
9:39
Speaker 1: impulse control drops quite substantially from ten through to fourteen fifteen.
9:43
Speaker 1: For males, it drops like any bit because it's already
9:47
Speaker 1: so done low. It's like we've got this floor effect,
9:49
Speaker 1: like you can't get much lower boys, but from the
9:52
Speaker 1: age of ten. But it does drop just marginally from
9:54
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen, whereas girls, there's a really defined drop
9:58
Speaker 1: from ten through to fifteen. Then the girls escalate back
10:01
Speaker 1: up again really really fast. It's a short window. I'm
10:04
Speaker 1: going to say that the window where girls are the
10:05
Speaker 1: lowest is really from about the age of twelve to fifteen.
10:08
Speaker 1: That's their lowest window, and then all of a sudden
10:10
Speaker 1: they're good again. Whereas the boys, they're already super low
10:13
Speaker 1: at the age of ten. They drop a little more
10:15
Speaker 1: until they're about fourteen and fifteen, and then ever so
10:18
Speaker 1: slowly they climb back up until at the age of
10:20
Speaker 1: twenty five their impulse controllers where girls were at ten.
10:23
Speaker 3: Wow, did that plow mind?
10:26
Speaker 2: Does it keep getting better?
10:27
Speaker 1: Well, we don't know, but as I said before, my
10:30
Speaker 1: guess would be, because we don't have the data in
10:31
Speaker 1: this particular paper, my guess would be that impulse control
10:34
Speaker 1: continues to get better. But I mean, let's face it,
10:37
Speaker 1: you and I are in our forties now, and while
10:40
Speaker 1: we have pretty good impulse control, if the cake's in
10:43
Speaker 1: the fridge, you're going to eat it. And if the
10:46
Speaker 1: icing's on the cake, who's going to eat? And if
10:48
Speaker 1: the icing's on the cake, I'm going to lick it
10:49
Speaker 1: all off. And obviously impulse control changes depending on how
10:54
Speaker 1: tired we are and how hungry we are, and what
10:56
Speaker 1: our goals are and our values and so on. So
10:59
Speaker 1: I think that it does get better as we get older.
11:01
Speaker 1: But the critical thing here is that boys and impulse
11:03
Speaker 1: control just super super super low relative to females.
11:08
Speaker 2: So what about sensation seeking, Because you obviously suggested that
11:11
Speaker 2: they are on different trajectories.
11:13
Speaker 1: They are, and what we find with sensation seeking for
11:15
Speaker 1: both girls and boys, is that sensation seeking is at
11:18
Speaker 1: its lowest, that is, least lowest level of let me
11:22
Speaker 1: do crazy stuff once again around the age of ten
11:25
Speaker 1: or eleven, and we see a really steady climb in
11:27
Speaker 1: sensation seeking until a round about the age of fourteen,
11:32
Speaker 1: and that's where for girls at.
11:34
Speaker 3: Pretty much levels off.
11:36
Speaker 1: When I say levels off, it stays at that level
11:38
Speaker 1: from fourteen through until a round about the age of
11:41
Speaker 1: eighteen somewhere in there, and then it declines pretty rapidly
11:46
Speaker 1: until at the age of twenty five it's back where
11:48
Speaker 1: the sensation seeking was at the age of twelve for females.
11:52
Speaker 1: But when we look at it for boys, they're already
11:55
Speaker 1: much higher than the girls anyway, but they accelerate super
11:58
Speaker 1: fast from ten through to fourteen, but then they keep
12:00
Speaker 1: on accelerating. It eases off a little bit to sixteen seventeen,
12:04
Speaker 1: and then it spikes again around about eighteen nineteen, and
12:08
Speaker 1: then it pretty much stays there until they're twenty four
12:10
Speaker 1: and then it drops off a little bit. So, I mean,
12:15
Speaker 1: this is a controversial topic, and especially with the way
12:20
Speaker 1: the world is right now, and this idea that there's
12:23
Speaker 1: a blue brain and a pink brain. I'll hang on. No,
12:26
Speaker 1: there's not. It's delusions of gender. There are all of
12:29
Speaker 1: these things that are being spoken about and written about
12:31
Speaker 1: in terms of gender and sex differences. From a responsible
12:36
Speaker 1: science perspective, it's undeniable that boys and girls differ. Obviously,
12:42
Speaker 1: there is continuum, and there are some boys who are
12:45
Speaker 1: very very low on sensation seeking and super great with
12:47
Speaker 1: impulse control. But they are in the exception. Those distributions
12:51
Speaker 1: overlap only on the extremes they are different. There are
12:55
Speaker 1: real differences there. And I find this data from Steinber
13:00
Speaker 1: and Shulman so compelling when you look at the way
13:03
Speaker 1: they've done the study and look at what they've reported.
13:06
Speaker 1: It's just such a compelling thing. And I look at
13:09
Speaker 1: it and I think to myself as a young man,
13:12
Speaker 1: and even now as a dangerously close to fifty year
13:15
Speaker 1: old guy, my degree of interest in sensation seeking activities
13:21
Speaker 1: is massively higher than yours. Now, obviously we're talking about
13:25
Speaker 1: a sample size of one. But you don't want to
13:27
Speaker 1: do the crazy stuff that I want to do.
13:29
Speaker 3: Hey, I went river boarding, Yeah you did, you.
13:32
Speaker 2: Did, But that wasn't thrial seeking enough for you.
13:35
Speaker 1: I really wanted to do the bungee swing, and I
13:37
Speaker 1: love to serve big waves, and I love to ride
13:39
Speaker 1: my bike fast downhills, and you know what I mean,
13:41
Speaker 1: there's that sensation seeking element that I think is just
13:44
Speaker 1: so so profoundly different between males and females on average.
13:52
Speaker 2: Well, look, you blew my mind so much that we
13:54
Speaker 2: don't have time for this second.
13:55
Speaker 1: No, we have to do it, but we're going to
13:57
Speaker 1: do it really really quick. Ok, this is in three
13:59
Speaker 1: minutes or less.
14:00
Speaker 2: Oh wow, Well, after the title you send with me,
14:03
Speaker 2: I think you've used your three minutes up.
14:05
Speaker 3: All right. So this one was about empathy.
14:06
Speaker 1: Is by an Israeli research called Guy Roth, who is
14:09
Speaker 1: one of my favorite researchers in the entire whole wide world.
14:11
Speaker 1: And what they've basically done is they've got a whole
14:13
Speaker 1: bunch of kids, one hundred and forty seven college students.
14:15
Speaker 1: They've also brought them, brought them together with their close friends,
14:18
Speaker 1: and they've said, we want to get you to fill
14:19
Speaker 1: in this survey. So the college students have filled in
14:22
Speaker 1: a survey all about the way their mums behave with
14:25
Speaker 1: them and the way they regulate their emotions, both individually
14:28
Speaker 1: and together. And then they've asked the friends, what sort
14:35
Speaker 1: of empathy and sympathy do you get from our participant
14:40
Speaker 1: over here who's just filled in that survey? What are
14:42
Speaker 1: they like when you're having an emotional moment? And what
14:44
Speaker 1: they've basically found is this, when kids perceive their parents
14:49
Speaker 1: as being empathic, willing to take their perspective, and then
14:54
Speaker 1: I guess autonomy, supportive choice providing when they say, well,
14:58
Speaker 1: it looks like you're having a tough time. What do
14:59
Speaker 1: you think you need to do here? How can I
15:01
Speaker 1: support you? Those kids end up being reported by their
15:04
Speaker 1: friends to be vastly more empathic, wonderfully sympathetic, absolutely willing
15:09
Speaker 1: to engage with their friend and their difficulties, with lots
15:14
Speaker 1: of caring and lots of concern, like they really emotionally
15:18
Speaker 1: step into the space and they're there to support them.
15:20
Speaker 1: Whereas the kids who are raised in homes where the
15:23
Speaker 1: parents are emotionally I guess distant, They don't take their
15:26
Speaker 1: child's perspective. They just sell them to suck it up.
15:28
Speaker 1: You'll be right, Stop being a big souk. Come on,
15:30
Speaker 1: get on with it. This is you being ridiculous now
15:32
Speaker 1: calm down, stop it whatever, and often tell the kids
15:36
Speaker 1: what to do. What guy Roth and his associates in
15:39
Speaker 1: this study found is that those people were reported as
15:45
Speaker 1: being much more emotionally distressed when their friend was experiencing
15:48
Speaker 1: an emotional reaction, and so they were more aversively engaged emotionally.
15:54
Speaker 1: They were more self centered with their emotions. They'd be
15:57
Speaker 1: saying things like I can't believe you're doing this to me,
15:59
Speaker 1: or like it was just a lack of empathy.
16:01
Speaker 3: They didn't know how they were emotionally stunted. I guess
16:05
Speaker 3: is what I'm saying here.
16:07
Speaker 2: So would that be the same case for parents who
16:09
Speaker 2: are more just apathetic, Like it's not even a you know,
16:12
Speaker 2: suck it up, princess kind of thing, it's just a
16:14
Speaker 2: you know, I've got other things that are more important.
16:17
Speaker 3: It would be.
16:17
Speaker 1: And I think there's a couple of things going on here.
16:19
Speaker 1: Number one, there's modeling, right, So, when you've got a
16:21
Speaker 1: parent who takes your perspective and then says, well, I
16:24
Speaker 1: want to give you some choices here, what do you
16:25
Speaker 1: think you should do? How are we going to work
16:27
Speaker 1: this out? They're modeling empathy and they're modeling what it
16:32
Speaker 1: means to support another person's psychological needs. Whereas if you've
16:37
Speaker 1: got an apathetic parent, or even a parent who's pushing
16:40
Speaker 1: against the child and saying, come on, this is you're
16:42
Speaker 1: being ridiculous. Stop it now, you've cried long enough.
16:45
Speaker 3: Get on with it.
16:45
Speaker 1: When you've got that going on, what you're showing is
16:49
Speaker 1: obviously unhelpful modeling. But more than that, you're placing the
16:53
Speaker 1: relationship on a lower rung than your own personal comfort
16:57
Speaker 1: with emotions. You're elevating your need to be comfortable over
17:00
Speaker 1: your over the other person's emotional distress. You're also suggesting
17:04
Speaker 1: to them that they're not competent in managing their emotions.
17:08
Speaker 1: You're indicating that they're incapable and incompetent. And thirdly, you're
17:12
Speaker 1: taking away their sense of agency and control because you're
17:15
Speaker 1: telling them what to feel and how to feel it
17:18
Speaker 1: and getting mad at them for not feeling it the
17:20
Speaker 1: way you want them to feel it right now, right here.
17:22
Speaker 1: Sort of thing. So my new book, I'm going to
17:24
Speaker 1: put in a plug for the new book, The Pairing Revolution.
17:26
Speaker 1: It's out right now. That's kind of well, no, it's
17:30
Speaker 1: not kind of. That's precisely what Guy Roth and his
17:32
Speaker 1: associates have discovered here. If you can be a need
17:34
Speaker 1: supportive parent, which is what the pairing revolution is actually
17:37
Speaker 1: all about. You teach your kids how to be much
17:40
Speaker 1: more empathic, you teach them how to be good friends.
17:43
Speaker 1: You teach them that stuff because you're modeling it partly,
17:45
Speaker 1: but also because you're supporting their needs.
17:48
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not quite sure we made it in three mans.
17:50
Speaker 3: Now we did. We did, seriously like I did. Okay,
17:53
Speaker 3: really really close.
17:54
Speaker 1: So we will link. We need to wrap up. Well,
17:57
Speaker 1: do you have any questions about those studies? Would you
17:59
Speaker 1: like to ask the professor or anything about the science
18:01
Speaker 1: we've talked about today.
18:03
Speaker 2: No, I think we've talked about it enough.
18:04
Speaker 3: Thank you. This you've got intrigued. You actually got intrigued.
18:10
Speaker 3: You liked this podcast episode.
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Speaker 2: You blew my mind, honey, you blew my mind.
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Speaker 1: The Happy Family's Podcasts is produced by Justin Roland from
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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and he
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Speaker 1: reckons that this is a monthly staple that needs to stay.
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Speaker 3: You're the only one. You're the only one we will live.
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Speaker 1: We'll link to the studies that I've shared in the
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Speaker 1: show notes in case you'd like to look them up
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Speaker 1: and find more information about than They really are fascinating
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Speaker 1: and thank you so much.
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Speaker 2: Make sure you've got your PhD handy so you can
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Speaker 2: under standard.
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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for listening.
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Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with I'll Do Better Tomorrow on
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Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast