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What we learned from a Michigan maritime policy panel · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:12
  Jeff Cranson: This week a special Michigan Maritime Policy Panel convened to talk about maritime strategy and possibilities in Michigan.
• 0:25
  Jeff Cranson: It's not always at the top of people's list when they think about transportation.
• 0:29
  Jeff Cranson: Obviously, everybody thinks about roads.
• 0:32
  Jeff Cranson: Some people care about other important modes of transportation, including transit and rail.
• 0:39
  Jeff Cranson: But Michigan's waterways, being a Great Lakes state, surrounded by four of the five, is also always front of mind for people who deal in the delivery of freight.
• 0:50
  Jeff Cranson: So I wanted to hear what came out of that panel and what the strategy is going forward and just what's going on with maritime policy in Michigan.
• 0:59
  Jeff Cranson: Elisha Wulff is the MDOT planner who coordinates these activities and oversees the maritime office and strategy.
• 1:09
  Jeff Cranson: So first I spoke with her about her perceptions and challenges and what she does in her work and what came out of that panel discussion.
• 1:18
  Jeff Cranson: And after that, I spoke with John Peracchio, who is a State Transportation Commission member and a veteran guest of the podcast.
• 1:26
  Jeff Cranson: He moderated the panel discussion and he has uh a real interest in this topic too.
• 1:32
  Jeff Cranson: And he had some interesting things to say.
• 1:35
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversations.
• 1:37
  Jeff Cranson: So again, as mentioned in the introduction, I'm with Elisha Wulff, who oversees uh, among other things related to freight coordination at MDOT, um, what we're doing with Maritime.
• 1:49
  Jeff Cranson: Um, I should say what we're doing and what we hope to be doing.
• 1:52
  Jeff Cranson: Elisha, thanks for being here.
• 1:54
  Jeff Cranson: First time on the podcast.
• 1:55
  Jeff Cranson: I appreciate it.
• 1:56
  Elisha Wulff: Thanks for having me, Jeff.
• 1:57
  Elisha Wulff: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:59
  Jeff Cranson: So talk first a little bit about your career trajectory, um, what you did to get to where you are now.
• 2:07
  Elisha Wulff: Sure, sure.
• 2:08
  Elisha Wulff: So I can't say I ever thought I would be doing freight transportation when I went to urban and regional planning at Michigan State University.
• 2:16
  Elisha Wulff: Um, started with MDOT around uh 10 and a half years ago as an entry-level transportation planner and quickly learned that uh one of my colleagues that I had the privilege of shadowing for four years was looking to retire and they really needed somebody to absorb some of that freight and maritime knowledge that he had developed over a 30-year career.
• 2:40
  Elisha Wulff: So I sort of landed into Freight and Maritime and uh fortunately I absolutely love it.
• 2:46
  Elisha Wulff: I find it to be very interesting and engaging and a very different area, a unique focus area that MDOT gets to work on.
• 2:54
  Elisha Wulff: So that's how I how I got here.
• 2:56
  Elisha Wulff: And I I feel pretty fortunate that I get to interact with the stakeholder groups that I do.
• 3:02
  Jeff Cranson: So talk about that a little bit.
• 3:03
  Jeff Cranson: What is it that you wouldn't have known before that you learned and have has you know kind of stoked your passions?
• 3:12
  Elisha Wulff: Absolutely.
• 3:12
  Elisha Wulff: Yeah, I think when I talk to people who work in maritime, especially, they are folks who grew up watching freighters, you know, visiting the Sioux locks and watching uh vessels go through the locks.
• 3:26
  Elisha Wulff: And uh that's not something I had the opportunity to do as a young person or even as a young adult.
• 3:32
  Elisha Wulff: Um, it was very new to me what the freight industry did.
• 3:36
  Elisha Wulff: And um, you know, I think the general public, much like me, knows that they can go to the grocery store and pick up their goods and they're just simply there.
• 3:46
  Elisha Wulff: And we don't understand how they got there and uh what that progress looks like getting something from you know where it's produced to where we uh purchase and and use these goods.
• 3:57
  Elisha Wulff: So I never understood that that connection.
• 4:00
  Elisha Wulff: And I now very much get to understand and interact with a lot of the different uh groups that are involved in movement of freight.
• 4:09
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, there's definitely a community of of uh, I guess I'd call them freighter files, or maybe there's a another term for what they are.
• 4:17
  Jeff Cranson: But if you spend any time, it you know, if if you've lived in a landlocked environment and spent any time in a harbor town, um, I've seen it in Holland and Grand Haven and Manistee.
• 4:28
  Jeff Cranson: Um I worked for a few years in Sandusky, Ohio, and it was definitely a phenomenon there.
• 4:33
  Jeff Cranson: That uh every evening uh a lot of people will come down to the docks to watch these freighters come in.
• 4:38
  Jeff Cranson: So it's really interesting.
• 4:40
  Jeff Cranson: Indeed, yes.
• 4:42
  Jeff Cranson: So talk a little bit about what we're doing with this this maritime office.
• 4:46
  Jeff Cranson: Um we can get into uh one of the biggest challenges, which is trying to find a sustainable funding source.
• 4:52
  Jeff Cranson: But um, before we talk about that, you know, what are your hopes and dreams for this?
• 4:58
  Elisha Wulff: That's a great question, Jeff.
• 4:59
  Elisha Wulff: I have a lot of a lot of hopes and dreams uh for for maritime, especially.
• 5:04
  Elisha Wulff: And and really maritime is one does.
• 5:07
  Elisha Wulff: As one does for sure.
• 5:09
  Elisha Wulff: I would I think Maritime is really having a moment right now, really in in Michigan and and nationally.
• 5:16
  Elisha Wulff: And it's something that's really exciting for for us to see.
• 5:20
  Elisha Wulff: We're seeing you know, renewed interest uh in domestic supply chains, resiliency, making better use of the infrastructure we have.
• 5:30
  Elisha Wulff: And um it's really, really cool to be one small part of where the industry is going.
• 5:36
  Elisha Wulff: But I'm part of a larger interagency uh group that came together to develop the Michigan Maritime Strategy, which the state of Michigan put out last week.
• 5:48
  Elisha Wulff: And that came out of having ongoing meetings between the various state agencies and understanding that we were all working on different things as it related to maritime.
• 6:00
  Elisha Wulff: And wouldn't it be great we thought to come together and really have a strategic vision and outline of where we want to be in Michigan with regard to maritime in the next 10 years?
• 6:12
  Elisha Wulff: So that is how it came about.
• 6:14
  Elisha Wulff: And now last week we put out the maritime strategy, and we are going to now move into implementation of that strategy and be able to work together with the industry in Michigan to implement some of the goals and objectives we have in the place.
• 6:31
  Jeff Cranson: So before we get into, and I want to talk a little bit more about the strategy itself, but um, when you feel like freight is having a moment, maritime transport of freight specifically, uh, why do you think that is?
• 6:43
  Jeff Cranson: Is that because of um things going on in the trucking industry or is it a whole bunch of things?
• 6:50
  Elisha Wulff: Yeah, I think it's it's a a number of things.
• 6:52
  Elisha Wulff: I think freight and maritime is is something that occurs behind the scenes a lot of the time.
• 6:58
  Elisha Wulff: And I think the awareness is starting to increase.
• 7:02
  Elisha Wulff: And the more that uh we are hearing industry talk um in public and at various you know associations and stakeholder events, we're starting to gain a better understanding of what the industry is doing, why it is is mattered.
• 7:19
  Elisha Wulff: And um one of the remarks I heard from a panelist, we'll talk a little bit about the Michigan Maritime Policy Panel that we held yesterday.
• 7:28
  Elisha Wulff: But one of the remarks I heard uh from a panelist was that maritime comes and goes in the night.
• 7:35
  Elisha Wulff: It drops off bulk commodities and you know, iron ore, limestone sand.
• 7:41
  Elisha Wulff: Uh, and a lot of the public doesn't even know they were there.
• 7:44
  Elisha Wulff: It happened while they slept.
• 7:46
  Elisha Wulff: And it's it's something that I believe now we're starting to really get our get a better handle on.
• 7:54
  Elisha Wulff: You know, this is a backbone of Michigan's economy, and this is why it matters, and this is how uh goods are moved, and this is why you're able to have the things that you have in your home and your and your work and and be able to purchase those items.
• 8:12
  Jeff Cranson: It's kind of cool to think about the thread of history here, right?
• 8:16
  Jeff Cranson: That long before the invention of the internal combustible engine and all the transportation technology that we have now, um, hundreds of years ago, waterways were how we transported people and things.
• 8:29
  Elisha Wulff: So that's exactly right.
• 8:31
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so when you say it's kind of having a moment, uh it's a bit of a comeback story, I guess.
• 8:37
  Elisha Wulff: Absolutely.
• 8:38
  Elisha Wulff: Yeah, and a lot of these vessels are 40 to 70 years old.
• 8:41
  Elisha Wulff: This is not, you know, new technology.
• 8:43
  Elisha Wulff: This has been here for a long time.
• 8:46
  Elisha Wulff: And it's uh, you know, like many other pieces of our infrastructure when we're talking transportation, this is aging infrastructure that's uh needs continued investment to continue to serve our economy.
• 8:58
  Jeff Cranson: Okay, and that kind of brings us to the strategy, right?
• 9:00
  Jeff Cranson: A big part of that strategy is how to get that uh I I used the term sustainable earlier, and I don't know that there's a better word for what you're talking about, but that continued investment.
• 9:10
  Jeff Cranson: So talk a little bit about that.
• 9:12
  Elisha Wulff: Yeah, so we see among the various Great Lakes states the different types of investment and um those states having the ability to invest in different ways and ownership of these facilities varying among among the states.
• 9:28
  Elisha Wulff: And in Michigan, um, much of this infrastructure is owned by the private sector.
• 9:33
  Elisha Wulff: We have two public uh port authorities in Michigan.
• 9:36
  Elisha Wulff: The rest of our 33 cargo ports are privately owned and operated.
• 9:40
  Elisha Wulff: In some states, this is similar, and other states, like ports of Indiana, the majority of them are publicly owned.
• 9:46
  Elisha Wulff: So you see different states and agencies are able to invest in in different ways depending on what that structure looks like, but we haven't in our history uh had a dedicated grant program or revenue source to fund maritime transportation.
• 10:06
  Elisha Wulff: So we were able to put out a one-time $5 million grant program in fiscal year 2024 to uh five Michigan ports.
• 10:16
  Elisha Wulff: And that's something we hope to you'd be able to continue, but without a, as you said, reliable revenue source, uh, it is difficult to identify how future programs like that could be funded.
• 10:32
  Elisha Wulff: And um it's a need that we feel uh strongly about, um, and the ports certainly feel there's uh a dire need to invest in some of this aging infrastructure of their docks or seawalls, um, the vessels themselves in many cases.
• 10:49
  Elisha Wulff: So it's an ongoing uh conversation, but uh you know, without that, there's some federal sources uh grant programs, but there's no dedicated, you know, formula funding for maritime.
• 11:03
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, funding is a challenge in all modes of transportation.
• 11:07
  Jeff Cranson: That's just the fact.
• 11:08
  Jeff Cranson: It's especially true in Michigan, but it's true everywhere.
• 11:11
  Jeff Cranson: But when you talk about, I I know one thing that always gets people going is that sense of competition.
• 11:15
  Jeff Cranson: And when you talk about what other states are doing, um, none of the other so-called Great Lakes states actually have frontage on four of the five, as Michigan does.
• 11:24
  Jeff Cranson: So um are some other our neighbors uh doing better on this front than we are?
• 11:31
  Elisha Wulff: I think some programs have had um a lot longer standing um programs that they've identified where those funds should, you know, come from.
• 11:41
  Elisha Wulff: Some are legislatively appropriated, some are carved out within their uh transportation budgets.
• 11:47
  Elisha Wulff: Um, but I think it depends on the sophistication of the program.
• 11:50
  Elisha Wulff: Again, it depends on the makeup of jurisdiction of those of those ports and uh marine terminals.
• 11:56
  Elisha Wulff: And in some cases, you know, we we do have some catching up to do, but we feel we're really well positioned given, like you said, geographically the Great Lakes uh system, and and we have a lot of capacity and we have the ability to I think fill some of those needs in a unique way that other Midwest states uh are not able to.
• 12:20
  Jeff Cranson: So one thing that would be appealing to people, everybody complains about trucks, right?
• 12:25
  Jeff Cranson: And uh and we know in terms of uh not just the congestion and what what having more trucks on the road does from an environment, environmental aspect, there's also just a safety issue of the interaction between smaller vehicles and trucks.
• 12:40
  Jeff Cranson: Um, with a more robust maritime program, would that take some trucks off the road?
• 12:45
  Elisha Wulff: Absolutely, yes.
• 12:46
  Elisha Wulff: They've got some tremendous uh figures that uh the American Great Lakes Port Association of just how many based on how many tonnage of goods that you're moving, um, we would see a significant reduction of truck congestion if we were able to divert some of these movements to the water.
• 13:04
  Elisha Wulff: And that's one of the things that we're trying to better get a handle on just how much could we divert and what commodities make the most sense?
• 13:13
  Elisha Wulff: And where is there a business case to make those switches happen?
• 13:18
  Elisha Wulff: We're looking into some research projects through MDOT's uh research program for fiscal year 27 to 29 to take a look at just that is where would it make sense to divert some of the traffic to the water?
• 13:32
  Elisha Wulff: Um, where, as I said, you know, it's not competing with other users, you know, no blocked rail crossings, no uh trucks on the roads.
• 13:43
  Elisha Wulff: So really a clean and seamless way of transporting goods.
• 13:49
  Jeff Cranson: Let's talk a little bit about the panel this week.
• 13:51
  Jeff Cranson: What did you find?
• 13:53
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, you knew the topics going in probably better than anybody in the room, but what surprised you or what did you find particularly interesting in the discussion?
• 14:01
  Elisha Wulff: You know, in my 10 years of working in freight or maritime, that was really the first venue that I've seen all of those individual sectors in one room together having this larger conversation and sharing why this matters to Michigan and why now after all these years are we are we having this conversation?
• 14:24
  Elisha Wulff: And it was really just tremendous to hear some of the progress we're making uh at the ports and in some of the ways that we're developing workforce.
• 14:37
  Elisha Wulff: And I think it was really just truly heartwarming that we are all coming together, and there's real, you know, bipartisan support for maritime and the ways that it supports our transportation system and our economy.
• 14:56
  Elisha Wulff: And we know that maritime is one of our greatest strengths and one of our uh state's competitive advantages to having that asset and being surrounded uh by the Great Lakes and 3,200 miles of shoreline, uh 33 active cargo ports.
• 15:18
  Elisha Wulff: So uh to me, it was just uh a great opportunity to sit back and soak in how far we've come after uh many years of uh hearing these messages myself from the ports, but giving them the opportunity to share that with the legislature and um other state agencies and members of the public.
• 15:37
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that was a very good uh cross-section uh in the room in terms of representation.
• 15:42
  Jeff Cranson: Did you feel like for the lawmakers and other policymakers that were there who were probably the most important audience, that there were some light bulb moments, perhaps?
• 15:50
  Elisha Wulff: I do.
• 15:51
  Elisha Wulff: I do.
• 15:52
  Elisha Wulff: And I think they're starting to recognize that if they themselves had very little understanding of what the maritime system looked like being in the positions that they are, then boy, the public has that often the same level of understanding.
• 16:08
  Elisha Wulff: So we're all start, you know, starting from a similar place and uh baseline of, you know, if we can start getting the message out and educating and increasing awareness, they think you know, a little bit could go a long ways within their jurisdictions.
• 16:25
  Elisha Wulff: And it's just really exciting to see how they think that there's a great alignment between all of the state agencies and the goals we have as greater state of Michigan.
• 16:36
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, that's really well said.
• 16:38
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you, Alicia, for taking time to share this.
• 16:42
  Jeff Cranson: Uh, is there anything else that you want to add?
• 16:45
  Elisha Wulff: No, no.
• 16:45
  Elisha Wulff: Thanks for um the opportunity, Jeff, and for helping get the maritime message out.
• 16:52
  Elisha Wulff: And I'm happy to return and talk anytime about maritime in Michigan.
• 16:57
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, well, I appreciate that, and I appreciate how much you love your work.
• 17:01
  Jeff Cranson: I'll be back in a minute to talk to John Peracchio, who is a State Transportation Commission member and also moderated the panel that Alicia has been talking about, and we'll get his perspectives and thoughts.
• 17:13
  Jeff Cranson: So thanks again, Alicia.
• 17:14
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you, Jeff.
• 17:16
  Jeff Cranson: Please stay tuned.
• 17:17
  Jeff Cranson: We'll be back with more talking Michigan transportation right after this.
• 17:24
  MDOT Message: Oh, look at those beautiful wildflowers along the road.
• 17:27
  MDOT Message: Aren't they pretty?
• 17:28
  MDOT Message: Check out that classic car.
• 17:29
  MDOT Message: You don't see many of those anymore.
• 17:31
  MDOT Message: Wow, look at that cable median barrier.
• 17:34
  MDOT Message: What?
• 17:34
  MDOT Message: You mean that wire guardrail in the middle of the road?
• 17:37
  MDOT Message: Exactly.
• 17:37
  MDOT Message: Aren't they gorgeous?
• 17:39
  MDOT Message: Um, not exactly.
• 17:41
  MDOT Message: They were put there to prevent crossover head-on crashes, which are some of the most deadly type of freeway crashes.
• 17:47
  MDOT Message: And they're really effective, reducing those types of incidents by 90%.
• 17:52
  MDOT Message: That's a lot of lives that have been saved.
• 17:55
  MDOT Message: Huh.
• 17:56
  MDOT Message: I guess I never really looked at them like that.
• 17:58
  MDOT Message: I prefer the wildflowers.
• 18:00
  MDOT Message: But I'm seeing those median cable barriers in a whole new light.
• 18:06
  Jeff Cranson: So once again, as promised, John Peracchio, who is now a regular on the podcast, he's just about to qualify for a five-time jacket, I think.
• 18:16
  Jeff Cranson: John, uh recently ensconced as a state transportation commissioner, has tremendous interest in all things transportation.
• 18:23
  Jeff Cranson: I I think.
• 18:24
  Jeff Cranson: Um, is it unfair to call you a transportation geek?
• 18:27
  John Peracchio: I don't like geek, but uh, you know, maven maybe is all right.
• 18:32
  John Peracchio: Yeah, I'll be a Maven for you, Jeff.
• 18:34
  Jeff Cranson: Okay.
• 18:34
  Jeff Cranson: Not a mogul, but a Maven.
• 18:36
  Jeff Cranson: Maven.
• 18:37
  Jeff Cranson: John is a transportation maven, and he is here to talk about the maritime strategy and what the state is doing in that realm, and about a panel that he moderated this week.
• 18:48
  Jeff Cranson: So I I talked to Alicia Wolf earlier, John, and uh my biggest takeaway from her about the timing of this and why we've kind of reached some critical mass, she said maritime is having a minute.
• 19:01
  Jeff Cranson: So um I sounds like you agree with that.
• 19:04
  Jeff Cranson: Why is that, do you think?
• 19:06
  John Peracchio: Uh well, I think first of all, uh fundamentally it's because the state of Michigan in January, uh, much to my uh pleasant surprise, issued a maritime strategy.
• 19:17
  John Peracchio: I mean, here we are, two peninsulas surrounded on three sides by water, uh, but we really don't consider the Great Lakes to be a transportation resource, at least until now.
• 19:29
  John Peracchio: And I will say the strategy goes well beyond transportation to talk about the opportunities for uh economic development associated with things like uh shipbuilding, uh ship operations, uh, and very significantly uh what we can do to improve our ports and other um uh facilities that are uh pertinent to water.
• 19:55
  Jeff Cranson: Would you uh say this has been building for some time?
• 19:58
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, I talked to Alicia a little bit about how um, you know, for all the technology for you know from the internal combustible engine and development of other kinds of transportation over the past hundred years or so, uh, we were moving people and goods by water hundreds of years ago.
• 20:16
  Jeff Cranson: Um so is this like one of those things that goes around and comes around again and a realization that you know water is a is a great means of of moving goods?
• 20:27
  John Peracchio: Well, I I think you're absolutely correct.
• 20:29
  John Peracchio: And um, I think we can we can look at um the auto industry in particular, which is very, very important to our state's economy, and see that um a lot of um uh completed vehicles and components for vehicles are currently transported by water.
• 20:49
  John Peracchio: It's just happening on the east and west coast.
• 20:52
  John Peracchio: It's not necessarily happening through the St.
• 20:55
  John Peracchio: Lawrence Seaway.
• 20:56
  John Peracchio: So a lot of uh, for example, automotive components come from Europe and elsewhere, and they start in the maritime provinces of Canada, go through Quebec, Ontario, Michigan, okay, and then uh both completed vehicles as well as other components go from uh Michigan back through the to uh through Canada, but then through Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, the ports of uh New York, New Jersey, and Baltimore are very, very important.
• 21:26
  John Peracchio: And increasingly the port of Savannah in Georgia, which is supplying the auto industry uh that exists in southeastern United States.
• 21:35
  John Peracchio: And so when you start to think about the art of the possible, when you're moving a lot of stuff, a lot of it is heavy, and you can um achieve great efficiency by moving all of that via um ships and on the water.
• 21:52
  Jeff Cranson: You know, it's really interesting that you say that because I learned just last week that uh a cable stay bridge in Savannah.
• 21:59
  Jeff Cranson: Is actually going to be raised by 25 feet so that it can accommodate the larger freighters and the containers that stack up on those.
• 22:08
  Jeff Cranson: I don't know if you knew about that or not, but it's a $170 million project to actually, you know, loosen the cables and raise this bridge by 25 feet.
• 22:18
  John Peracchio: So I honestly I didn't know about it, but it makes perfect sense, right?
• 22:22
  John Peracchio: Because it enables um you know more uh containers on ships that are designed to handle um these things stacked up, you know, certain distances.
• 22:31
  John Peracchio: And so you have to have clearance.
• 22:33
  John Peracchio: I I mean, I think, you know, the the truth is in in our area, particularly the port of Monroe, I mean, there's nothing in the way of bringing um you know major container ships into that port.
• 22:47
  Jeff Cranson: So when you talk about the role of Canada in this, both coming and going, is that mostly the port of Halifax?
• 22:53
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, Halifax.
• 22:54
  John Peracchio: The stuff comes in there, gets on trucks, right?
• 22:57
  John Peracchio: The containers go on trucks.
• 22:59
  John Peracchio: Yeah.
• 23:00
  John Peracchio: Okay.
• 23:01
  John Peracchio: You can put a lot of containers on a container ship.
• 23:04
  John Peracchio: And instead of those trucks uh being on roadways, they can the containers can be shipped uh via waterway.
• 23:11
  Jeff Cranson: So how do we talk about this in a I I want to get to funding in a minute, but um without sounding like we're pitting, you know, one industry against another in terms of maritime and trucking.
• 23:23
  John Peracchio: Uh so um uh there's a concept which I actually I just learned about during, well, it was before the panel, somebody gave me this um this really interesting slide on what's called uh short C shipping.
• 23:38
  John Peracchio: You can't say that real quickly multiple times, but if you just uh do it slowly, short C shipping of containers, what it means is it actually uh uses uh the trucking mode more efficiently by combining it's an intermodal concept where you combine moving uh containers short distances on water to points where they can um uh connect with uh trucks that take it to the ultimate, take those containers to the ultimate destination.
• 24:10
  John Peracchio: So it isn't displacing uh trucking, it's just using the trucks more efficiently over shorter distances and using ships over shorter distances.
• 24:21
  John Peracchio: So it's rethinking their role.
• 24:23
  John Peracchio: It's common elsewhere, right?
• 24:26
  John Peracchio: It's just we don't think of it that way.
• 24:28
  John Peracchio: And that's you know part of the um you know historical importance in this year of our uh nation semi-quincentennial, that Michigan has now at least an outline of what we can do to leverage our tremendous water resources.
• 24:46
  Jeff Cranson: I talked to Alicia a little bit about this, and I want to get your perspective too, because you talked about you know being surrounded by water on three sides.
• 24:52
  Jeff Cranson: And when we talk about the Great Lakes states, uh ours is the only one that touches as frontage on four of those five Great Lakes.
• 25:01
  Jeff Cranson: But where do we rank against those states in uh funding maritime and having a you know a long-term strategy?
• 25:10
  John Peracchio: Well, now we have a strategy, so that's good.
• 25:13
  John Peracchio: Um funding, we're less good.
• 25:17
  John Peracchio: Um other states are doing more, and um and that's the challenge for us is to find a stable funding mechanism that isn't a one-off, that can you know cross fiscal years, and doesn't um uh deplete funding for other critical transportation needs.
• 25:43
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, so do you think that that that will work?
• 25:46
  Jeff Cranson: That uh kind of you talked about rethinking the efficiency of the movement and the shorter trips.
• 25:53
  Jeff Cranson: Um you think that's something that will become a concept more people are talking about and understand?
• 26:00
  Jeff Cranson: Well, I certainly hope that's the whole idea, right?
• 26:02
  John Peracchio: Yeah, exactly.
• 26:03
  John Peracchio: I certainly hope so.
• 26:04
  John Peracchio: And I and I think you know, part of the efficiency can go towards supporting our uh water infrastructure, our port infrastructure.
• 26:14
  John Peracchio: Okay.
• 26:14
  John Peracchio: In other words, what I'm saying is if the private sector can save money by using um uh the waterways as a transportation resource, I think it's fair that part of that efficiency can be captured as um let's call it a user fee to be able to support the development of ports and um uh shore infrastructure.
• 26:39
  Jeff Cranson: You've heard me use this uh analogy before, but I think it bears repeating here because so much of this strategy discussion involves a sustainable funding method.
• 26:50
  Jeff Cranson: Um if if I went to Boyne Mountain, I just use that as an example because I'm a skier and said, I want to pay a 1994 price for a lift ticket because that's the last time the federal gas tax was raised.
• 27:03
  Jeff Cranson: And they said, Well, sorry, we can't do that.
• 27:05
  Jeff Cranson: You know, we have a business here.
• 27:07
  Jeff Cranson: Um, but so many people think the solution to funding is just finding something in what you already get instead of um expanding the pool, right?
• 27:17
  Jeff Cranson: And so now this discussion about maritime is well, we'll take some money from here and put it here instead of we just need more money overall for all the modes.
• 27:26
  Jeff Cranson: Um, did you did you sense any breakthroughs in terms of that yesterday with the policymakers who were in the room?
• 27:34
  John Peracchio: Uh I did not.
• 27:35
  John Peracchio: Uh, I think um it seemed to me that we're still in a zero-sum game of having to take from other uh transportation needs in terms of um uh providing funding for maritime.
• 27:50
  John Peracchio: I don't think that's a good answer.
• 27:52
  John Peracchio: Um, I will say this.
• 27:54
  John Peracchio: I uh I commend the governor and the legislature for providing um money to do a road usage charge uh study and pilot, something we've talked about on your podcast.
• 28:06
  John Peracchio: And that speaks to the need to find alternative funding mechanisms for transportation.
• 28:12
  John Peracchio: Now, in that in this particular case, uh the Budget Act specifies that uh you know we're looking at roads and bridges, but the concept could go beyond that to support other uh modes of transportation in the state, such as uh transit.
• 28:29
  John Peracchio: Uh but going back to my earlier comment, I think you know, user fees are certainly something we need to take a look at if we're able to capture cost efficiencies by building up our port um uh infrastructure.
• 28:45
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 28:45
  Jeff Cranson: So, I mean, again, and maybe, you know, God knows you know so many things about so many things, but if you don't know this, that's fine.
• 28:53
  Jeff Cranson: But are other states being more effective at identifying that user fee model when it comes to maritime?
• 29:00
  John Peracchio: They certainly are.
• 29:01
  John Peracchio: I think it's just so different in in other parts of the country because we're so underdeveloped, you know, and you know, we very much appreciate the the legislature providing the um the 5.3 million that that's gonna roll over from the fiscal year 26 to fiscal year 27 for a grant program.
• 29:22
  John Peracchio: And and that's very, very important.
• 29:24
  John Peracchio: Uh, but we need we're need much more.
• 29:27
  John Peracchio: Um and that's you know barely a drop in the bucket, as some have said.
• 29:33
  John Peracchio: And I agree, I agree with that.
• 29:35
  John Peracchio: But um we need to look at alternative funding sources really to make this work in Michigan.
• 29:42
  John Peracchio: We're starting, uh I I in one sense it's a good thing.
• 29:45
  John Peracchio: We're starting from scratch.
• 29:46
  John Peracchio: We really have um an opportunity here to do something uh innovative, leverage technology, um, uh look at unmanned surface transportation, um uh especially because you've got these three, you know, these great bathtubs of the Great Lakes that are in a relatively controlled compared to an ocean environment.
• 30:11
  John Peracchio: And in fact, you sparked another area of opportunity, which is to support uh commercial and military shipbuilding, uh, because we are in an enclosed and secure area.
• 30:24
  John Peracchio: So, for uh, for example, U.S.
• 30:26
  John Peracchio: Navy research and development, the Great Lakes are absolutely ideal because our adversaries can't get in here, right?
• 30:35
  John Peracchio: It's literally impossible.
• 30:37
  John Peracchio: And I don't know if you know this, but in World War II, the U.S.
• 30:41
  John Peracchio: Navy actually trained aircraft carrier pilots on the Great Lakes.
• 30:45
  John Peracchio: There were two aircraft carriers, USS Wolverine and USS Sable.
• 30:50
  John Peracchio: They were converted paddle-wheel commercial steamers, okay.
• 30:54
  John Peracchio: And the U.S.
• 30:55
  John Peracchio: Navy throughout World War II trained their pilots on the Great Lakes.
• 30:59
  John Peracchio: It's a great example of how our uh natural resources can support um national security.
• 31:07
  Jeff Cranson: I did know a little bit about that because of a Navy uncle of mine um in Battle Creek who talked about that and also talked about other things uh related to Michigan's role in World War II and including the advantages of uh of our cloudy days here.
• 31:24
  John Peracchio: So well, yeah, right.
• 31:26
  John Peracchio: But I mean the other thing is, you know, the Navy right now is struggling to they don't seem to be able to um uh build a ship to save their soul.
• 31:35
  John Peracchio: They've got all kinds of manufacturing issues.
• 31:37
  John Peracchio: Do you know who knows more about manufacturing on Earth than the people in Michigan who've done it for over a century, right?
• 31:47
  John Peracchio: Yeah.
• 31:48
  John Peracchio: We absolutely can help the Navy, we can help commercial shipbuilders, which are also struggling, okay?
• 31:55
  John Peracchio: Um, and we're it's not that we're gonna build ships here in Michigan necessarily, although ultimately we could.
• 32:01
  John Peracchio: But you know, the Navy, for example, is building ships and modules.
• 32:04
  John Peracchio: So we can build those modules here, put them on a container ship and take them to where the ships are actually being assembled.
• 32:13
  John Peracchio: So there's a huge opportunity, and it's outlined in the maritime strategy that Alicia uh helped write.
• 32:19
  Jeff Cranson: So we've established that you're a transportation maven, but what is it about this that so specifically you know sparks your interest, I guess?
• 32:29
  Jeff Cranson: Is it is it your background with uh with naval issues or just all of that?
• 32:35
  John Peracchio: So I'm a as you know, I'm a civilian.
• 32:37
  John Peracchio: I never served, but uh I'm a lifelong Navy Leaguer, Navy League of the United States.
• 32:42
  John Peracchio: I belong to the U.S.
• 32:42
  John Peracchio: Naval Institute.
• 32:44
  John Peracchio: Um, and uh I'm a region, what they call a regional director for the U.S.
• 32:48
  John Peracchio: Naval War College Foundation in Newport, Rhode Island.
• 32:52
  John Peracchio: And um, you know, when I visit naval facilities, I was recently at a conference um in Norfolk, uh, Virginia, which is just a ginormous U.S.
• 33:02
  John Peracchio: Navy base uh and operations center.
• 33:05
  John Peracchio: And I I I look at the coastline and the shore facilities, and I think of Michigan.
• 33:11
  John Peracchio: There's no reason, I mean, we're not gonna be Norfolk, but we certainly could be more than we are in terms of um, you know, both commercial and military port facilities.
• 33:22
  John Peracchio: And we should be thinking about that.
• 33:23
  John Peracchio: And I've always thought, wow, what a missed opportunity we have um on the Great Lakes uh to participate in um the uh both commercial shipping and then in supporting national defense.
• 33:39
  Jeff Cranson: Well, John, we could talk about this forever.
• 33:41
  Jeff Cranson: Um, as always, I really appreciate it.
• 33:43
  Jeff Cranson: I uh really appreciate that you're willing to give your talent and time to our state um to do these things.
• 33:49
  Jeff Cranson: And uh it's always a always a great conversation.
• 33:52
  Jeff Cranson: Is there anything you wanted to add?
• 33:54
  John Peracchio: No, I really appreciate the opportunity.
• 33:56
  John Peracchio: I again, you know, I I think this is historic.
• 33:59
  John Peracchio: And uh, you know, to um to Alicia's point about uh Maritime having its minute, I'm I'm I'm hoping it's gonna be more like hours and and days because it's really worth it and and uh ultimately a uh a great benefit to the residents of Michigan.
• 34:16
  John Peracchio: He hopes so too.
• 34:17
  John Peracchio: Well said, thank you.
• 34:18
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 34:22
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or BuzzSprout.
• 34:26
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, and Jacke Salinas, who posts the podcast to various platforms and transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.