Latest / The Action Catalyst / Leadership Is Worthless, But Leading Is Priceless, with Dr. Thom Mayer (Sports, Ukraine, 9/11, Medicine)

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Leadership Is Worthless, But Leading Is Priceless, with Dr. Thom Mayer (Sports, Ukraine, 9/11, Medicine) · The Action Catalyst

0:29
Adam Outland: Today's guest is Dr. Thom Mayer, an author and
0:32
keynote speaker who's been a leader in times of crisis for
0:35
over 25 years. He's the medical director for the NFL Players
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Association, served as a command physician at the Pentagon on
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9/11, led a mobile emergency team in Ukraine, and has
0:47
authored the new book Leadership is Worthless, But Leading is
0:51
Priceless. It's my pleasure to introduce Dr. Thom Mayer. Thom,
0:55
great to meet you.
0:56
Dr. Thom Mayer: Good to see ya.
0:57
Adam Outland: I actually want to know a little bit of your
0:59
backstory like where did you grow up? And then how did you
1:02
end up where you are now?
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Dr. Thom Mayer: Well, I grew up in a small town Indiana
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Midwestern classic Midwest way to be raised to one of those
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factory towns that feeds are fed General Motors 70 miles
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northeast of Indianapolis, and football player A lot of people
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played football in order to go to college I went to college in
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order to continue playing football and dreams of playing
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in the NFL and aside from I did play in college was all
1:34
conference linebacker and you know, the old saying is you
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know, the longer go we played the better we were didn't have a
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chance I had broken my leg my or I didn't break it somebody broke
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up for me in my junior year a pretty bad fracture. So I
1:47
couldn't play my senior year. But I was invited to training
1:52
camps with the Vikings and the bears and I thought hey, let's
1:55
give this a shot and discovered that What did they tell me? They
1:59
said aside from my side speed, strength and talent. They said I
2:03
had talent other than that I would have been a perfect
2:06
linebacker in the NFL.
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Adam Outland: Oh, how nice.
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Dr. Thom Mayer: Yeah, I decided to go to I was in at Dukes
2:12
medical school and I thought no matter how nasty the professors
2:16
at Duke were they couldn't be any worse than the guys trying
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to take my head off with the Vikings and the bears so became
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an emergency physician. I trained in surgery at Salt Lake
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City and we worked a deal out so that the surgical residents
2:29
covered the park Doctor role at Yellowstone National Park. Oh,
2:35
and we've been going back ever since. So 25 years ago we we bit
2:39
the bullet and bought a place and have enjoyed it ever since
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it's still a small town atmosphere a lot more people
2:45
have moved in from other places, but we love it.
2:47
Adam Outland: How did you... that's a big reevaluation right?
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When you switch gears from thinking I'm going to be a
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professional athlete to you obviously had another trajectory
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in mind to even be considering Duke Medical.
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Dr. Thom Mayer: Well I was actually a theology major when I
3:01
was in college, and it wasn't that I was particularly cerebral
3:06
or reflective. It was because you didn't have to take tests.
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You just wrote papers at the end of my sophomore year. My two
3:15
professors my theology professor and a biology professor name was
3:19
Dr. Pray, you can't make that stuff up, said if ever thought
3:23
about going into medicine instead of being a theology
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professor after duke i was very clear I wanted to go west, but
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decided I was either gonna go to Colorado or Utah. So I read Salt
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Lake number one and loved it met my wife Maureen there she was a
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newborn ICU flight nurse. I was a pediatric trauma fellow, just
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a magical series of serendipitous circumstances.
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Adam Outland: And then how did you decide to reengage with the
3:50
NFL or how did they decide to re engage with you?
3:52
Dr. Thom Mayer: The people ask me all the time, how do you
3:55
build How do I build my resume to get a job like yours? Just
3:58
the Medical Director of the NFL Players Association in my answer
4:01
is, I became the medical director on August 1 2001. Korey
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Stringer, a tackle for the Vikings died inexplicably of
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heatstroke. And I got a phone call. The phone call was from
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Gene Upshaw, then the executive director of the NFLPA and he
4:19
called me not because he had done a resume search, but he
4:22
called me because we were best friends. And we were best
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friends because his youngest and my youngest were best friends.
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Our family said had countless dinners, we coach T ball
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together. We coached football together. And so he called me
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because he knew me and he trusted me. So I always tell
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people don't build resumes, build relationships. And I think
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that's the key, particularly as we move forward. And so I've
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been doing that for the last 23 plus years, and it's been an
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honor and a privilege to be a part of guiding the health and
4:55
safety of our 2500 players per year.
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Adam Outland: But it's a huge responsibility. What are just
5:02
one or two challenges that you ran into?
5:05
Dr. Thom Mayer: Sure. You know, when our boys were younger, I
5:07
used to take them to school every day I was entailed. When I
5:10
dropped them off. I always said precisely the same thing. One
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more step in the journey of discovering where your deep joy
5:17
intersects the world's deep needs. I swear I said this to
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them, you have to start with your deep joy, not the world's
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deep needs, the world's deep needs are infinite unfathomable.
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There's no bottom to that well, but if you start with your deep
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joy, with passion that drives you why you do what you do. And
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that has been a constant in the job because you know, Lord Acton
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said, as you know, power corrupts, and absolute power
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corrupts absolutely. NFL is now was then in 2001, the most
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powerful sports organization in our business in the world, and
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keeping in mind that the deep joy of representing the health
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and safety needs of our 2500 player patients. That's not the
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same interests as as the NFL, which represents the interests
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of 32 billionaires who are the owners of the clubs. And so you
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just have to be willing to stay constant to that it was true in
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the concussion crisis, when we recognize there was a problem
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that had to be fixed. We we the NFLPA, Sean sands, very our
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attorney at the time, and I wrote the original concussion
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protocols. And there were significant pushback from the
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NFL, different commissioner and different medical director and
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chair of what was then called the mTBI. Committee, we stayed
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constant to that. And now, you know, we're at a place where the
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league takes great pride in the calling of the NFL concussion
6:48
protocols. That's great, as long as it's for the good of my
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player patients. But having the courage, the integrity to stand
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up and say, No, we are going to have guidelines. And these are
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the scientific protocols that are our best knowledge at this
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time.
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Adam Outland: This leads us to actually something you write
7:07
about, which is sucking down, instead of sucking up.
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Dr. Thom Mayer: The book, as you know, is kind of a litany very
7:14
brief, 176 pages of contrarian types of statements, starting
7:19
with the title leadership is worthless. But leading is
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priceless. What I learned 911, the NFL and Ukraine, you know,
7:28
when I was called to the Pentagon on 911, I was a command
7:31
physician at the Pentagon. And I got there, first of all, you you
7:36
fly in and think Oh, my God, these are the gates of hell. I
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mean, you see the Pentagon of all things burning, you know, I
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couldn't even see that there was any remnants of a plane in the
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southwest wall was completely on fire. But the gates of Hell take
7:49
you to some pretty interesting places. And so what I learned
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was that, first of all, is a civilian operation, I was the
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Medical Director of the local EMS agency, and the chairman of
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the emergency department. But we had, I had 32 generals standing
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behind me, facing the Pentagon willing to help in any way good
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men, good women, who were there to help me any way they could.
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But I realized, I'm not gonna get anywhere. By sucking up to
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these generals, I have to suck down to the people actually
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doing the work, to the structural engineers, to the
8:27
Army Corps of Engineers, to the paramedics, to the firefighters,
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to the suppressant folks to the FBI evidence recovery team, in
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order to secure that building, so we could safely they could
8:38
safely get into the building, to help rescue those who are in
8:43
there and recover those who had not made it through the horrific
8:46
crash. And I think that's true in all of our lives, we kind of
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suck up guests, I always say the boss is someone who thinks that
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he's the most important person in the room. Whereas the leader
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knows that she's her job is to make sure that everyone else
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feels that they're the most important person in the room, no
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need to suck up. We need to suck down and discover the answers
9:10
within us.
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Adam Outland: It is hard, right? You you step into a leadership
9:14
role at times if you are the leader, and you have people
9:17
reporting and sometimes they're sucking up to you, though, when
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you reframe and say, it really is about hey, I'm not here to be
9:24
the most important person. I'm here to serve the people that
9:28
pay my salary really, that that actually put me in this position
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to begin with.
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Dr. Thom Mayer: Yeah, when I shortly after I first started my
9:34
job, I had a very difficult issue with the NFL and I laid
9:38
the issue out and I knew that you can't just say Hey, boss,
9:43
solve this problem for me. I had to come in with solution. So I
9:46
had three solutions. And I laid out the solutions and said Here
9:49
they are 123 some What do you want me to do? And he said he
9:54
thought for a second he looked at me and he said just go be Tom
9:57
mayor. That's why you are Tom mayor. That's why are down
10:00
mayor, I realized what he was saying is, I trust you trust
10:04
yourself to be able to make the right this decision. And I'll
10:09
support you all the way. You know, the leader, we're looking
10:12
for the leader you're looking for as you. You are the one.
10:17
Adam Outland: I feel that you operate probably at very highly
10:21
autonomous level to when you're taking on these roles. And I
10:24
mean, not in the way that you don't work with a team. But it's
10:27
the position you're often put in as, here's the football, you got
10:31
to figure out how to get the rest of the way down the finish
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line, that that ends up being a big strength of your stat. And I
10:36
feel like you have very high risk tolerance.
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Dr. Thom Mayer: Well, that's true. Definitely. You know, I
10:41
always talk about innovation at the speed of not genius,
10:44
intelligence, creativity, but of cost. Because if people don't
10:48
trust you, they're not going to step outside the lines and try
10:51
something that might fail. And we have to make failure fuel, we
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have to understand that if you're not failing, you're not
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innovating. You know, you're only adopting best practices,
11:02
adopting what has already been identified maybe as the next
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phase. But something that's clearly there, you know, we want
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people to be able to think we're really completely outside the
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box, most of the time when the boss says, think outside the
11:17
box, they are box, they don't mean that they mean think inside
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my box, the way I'm thinking Guess what I'm thinking. So
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that's like sucking up. So the answers are not in the you know,
11:31
they're not the C suite, they're in the Weast suite. They do the
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work, that team of people who do the work in the trenches on a
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daily basis. And that's where innovation should come from.
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Adam Outland: The challenge in leadership is getting honest
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feedback. From that we sweet that you have, do you have any
11:51
thoughts or tips or like personal anecdotes on how you
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created an evolved a culture where people would tell you
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sometimes what you didn't want to hear and felt okay, doing
12:01
that?
12:01
Dr. Thom Mayer: Well, first of all, I always heard people not
12:03
only who were better than me, but were much better than me.
12:06
People would say, What's it like working for you? And the answer
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is I have zero idea. Because no one's ever worked for me, they
12:12
work with me, I started almost every statement that I made to
12:16
my folks, my team by saying two things. One is, I need your
12:22
help. Now, instead of you've got a problem already with I need
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your help. I mean, even if the person you're working with is a
12:31
difficult person, you know, egocentric whatever it might be
12:35
locked into the boss mentality, instead of the leader mentality.
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You when you say I need your help, most people are going to
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say, Okay, I'm going to try to help you, too, is I like saying
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what would have to be true. My point being what would have to
12:50
be true. In order for us as a team to be able to deliver what
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it is, you've just told me is something a desired state we
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need, you know, here's where we are, here's where we want to be,
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what would have to be true. In order to get there. There's a
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difference. There's a fundamental paradox between a
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team of experts, a very smart, talented group of people. And
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that's not the same as an expert team, people who work seamlessly
13:20
across boundaries, who understand what the goal is the
13:23
ability to trust each other, to come up with ideas. The Kansas
13:28
City Chiefs, you know, famously are a very innovative team.
13:32
Well, that starts at the top with Andy Reid, who sits down
13:37
with his entire staff, his entire team on the whiteboard,
13:41
and looks at ideas about different plays that they could
13:45
run, how could we exploit in this situation this down in
13:48
distance, they're going to uncover one this, they're going
13:50
to be uncovered three, that's an expert team, a group of people
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saying, let's take Creative Chemistry.
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Adam Outland: You know, I know what you think of when you think
13:58
of the antithesis a lot of these principles, but it might help us
14:01
move into this other part of your life. You know, I read all
14:04
these anecdotes and news articles about Russia, and at
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Putin's leadership and this whole affair with Ukraine, and
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it seems almost completely countered everything we talked
14:14
about, I mean it, you get the sense that the generals, pander
14:18
to Putin and tell him what he wants to hear instead of what he
14:21
doesn't, which might be the reality on the ground. When you
14:24
got a phone call to go help Ukraine at the start of this
14:28
war? What went through your mind? Were you concerned? What
14:31
How did you make this decision?
14:32
Dr. Thom Mayer: That's a great question. First of all, I didn't
14:35
get a phone call, I made a phone call. Well, I picked up the
14:39
phone, and I saw what was happening. I thought, you know,
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I've been very fortunate, as you know, to have bled in in some of
14:46
the most prominent crises of our generation. It's an honor to
14:50
serve others in the in the course of that and to have been
14:53
asked to have done so. But to me, I thought this is an
14:56
injustice that that can't stand. I'm an emergency physician. So
15:00
I'm uniquely trained in Have a mentality, you know, we have
15:04
this weird thing of, you know, explosions fire, you know,
15:07
gunfire, we run into that, not away from it, they're, you know,
15:11
we're just not normal. And so I made phone calls connected with
15:15
Team Rubicon, a group of former Marines. And so literally,
15:18
within three weeks of the invasion, we were there boots on
15:22
the ground and in Ukraine, in order to take care of patients.
15:26
So having been at the tip of that spear, exposed to air raids
15:29
of literally every day, and every night, you know, I saw the
15:33
results, people are blown out of their homes blown out of their
15:37
apartments, in the middle of the night, having to get on a train
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and go 900 miles west and hope someone would be there to take
15:44
care of him. But you see, it's hard not to think about what
15:48
kind of mentality results in men doing that. I think your point
15:52
is extremely well taken that authoritarian way of dealing
15:55
with things does not in my opinion, have the right results.
15:58
Adam Outland: No. And not to be too contrarian. But I also think
16:01
like in times of crisis, I mean, you're shaking Team Rubicon over
16:05
there. And I imagine it's a all hands on deck, a pretty intense
16:08
experience. And there's there's got to be some motivation,
16:11
sometimes to be a little authoritarian, because there's
16:14
the speed element that if you are the one making all the
16:17
decisions, you can make them so much quicker, right?
16:20
Dr. Thom Mayer: You know, how does a team operate as an expert
16:23
team? Certainly, you recruit smart people. But you know, Bill
16:26
Belichick said, talent sets the floor of a team, but character
16:30
sets the ceiling of a team. And I think that's true in any t.
16:34
So, you know, our group came together and bonded, I mean,
16:38
serious badass is, and that's the highest compliment I can
16:42
give somebody. And in an emergency situation, you quickly
16:45
develop those bonds of trust, you talk about team, how are we
16:49
going to react in this situation, I can tell you, when
16:53
I was dealing with those patients, they're right there
16:56
working with me. And I never, almost never had to ask them to
17:00
do anything. You know, it's like in the midst of an emergency
17:04
resuscitation, I put my hand out when the nurse puts a chest tube
17:08
in because she knows what I'm thinking. The same thing
17:12
occurred there. So you know, from great teamwork comes great
17:16
preparation, great trust, a great sense of the ability of
17:19
people to work across boundaries. And you develop that
17:23
very quickly. And I think the more we understand that the work
17:27
begins within, but it turns very quickly towards teamwork.
17:31
Adam Outland: It's almost like that expression, leadership is
17:33
assumed before it's assigned, right?
17:36
Dr. Thom Mayer: Wherever we're leading, whether we're leading
17:39
our family, our kids, you know, whether we're leading a large
17:43
organization, we have to learn to tell the story of the people
17:47
we serve. Tell a story about the people that you represent. In
17:51
too many organizations, too many teams are so bogged down in
17:55
statistics and data, instead of telling the story of the people
18:00
that we serve. Mark Twain was very good at this as most things
18:04
when he said, If you want to rise to the meteoric heights of
18:08
literary greatness, don't write about man, write about a man
18:12
tell the story of the person who's doing it.
18:16
Adam Outland: Curiosity has had to have played a role in your
18:19
life, because of your well read and well study. How much
18:24
importance do you put on curiosity and being a person
18:27
that asked questions?
18:29
Dr. Thom Mayer: Yeah, obviously, I think failure has to be our
18:32
fuel. But driving failure is curiosity, that that wonder why
18:36
why why not? Why did we do it this way? And why not do it a
18:40
different way? Why are we doing it this way? We hear that all
18:44
the time. And the most common answer to that, because we've
18:48
always done it that way. Because we've always done it that way.
18:52
That doesn't show curiosity that doesn't show, you know, hey, why
18:57
couldn't it be done another way? So the question, you know, why
19:01
should be it adds value to the people we serve. But the bigger
19:05
question is, why not? Why couldn't we do it another way?
19:09
Because I asked people to think about leading in a radically
19:13
different way to act on those thoughts within a week, because
19:17
if the people who listen to this don't, in some small way, do
19:21
something differently, if they don't act on it within a week,
19:25
they're not going to add in the third is to innovate, think, act
19:29
and innovate, and to innovate takes that curiosity to say,
19:33
what I couldn't have been done another way, why couldn't this
19:37
the play that we drew up? Why couldn't that have been done in
19:41
a different way? Why the strategic plan that we laid out
19:45
how did it fail? How did it to what extent did it fail? Sure.
19:49
It's nice to have stats to show data to show the you know, the
19:53
delta between what we aspired to, and that which we achieved,
19:57
but again, that human story that's behind that. So to me,
20:01
it's read Tilly read to lead read the lives of great men
20:04
Right women, those who've been through it, I just got back from
20:09
Normandy, had the great privilege working with Donnie
20:12
Edwards, a former NFL player, Best Defense Foundation, we took
20:16
60 World War Two veterans back to the Normandy beaches. Wow.
20:20
Unbelievable cold chills just thinking talking about, you
20:24
know, listening to those men, what they went through how they
20:28
faced it, you know it, you can't do better than to see the people
20:32
who've been through it before and hear their experiences, read
20:37
their lives, how did they make decisions? What guided what went
20:41
right, what went wrong? It's just that curiosity, as you so
20:45
correctly says, is the only thing we can do to fuel our
20:48
failure to understand how did we fail?
20:51
Adam Outland: Failure, you know, you talk about it as a lesson in
20:53
a learning experience. And I don't know if you've got a good
20:56
story for this. But sometimes we learn our lessons life, not
20:59
because we did it, right, because we did it wrong, and
21:02
learn from it. What's the a personal example, where either
21:05
you didn't follow your own advice, and it cost you something?
21:08
Dr. Thom Mayer: Anytime I put myself in front of those I
21:11
serve, I feel like you know, I'm too old to be making that
21:14
mistake, I made that mistake so many times. And I just made it
21:18
over again. And whenever I've you know, answered a reporter,
21:22
given a talk or been in a meeting, and I've let my ego get
21:26
in the way, as opposed to thinking first, last and always
21:29
in between, about the people I serve, then then I've regretted
21:33
it. You know, I give you a great example of what I said once and
21:37
there was a shooting at the CIA, and I was the chairman of the
21:41
emergency department at the time. And I tell the story of
21:45
permission to the patient and his family. He's got a nick star
21:49
worked at the CIA waiting to turn in was shot at close range
21:52
with a ak 47. And he came into our trauma center, flown in by
21:56
by my police paramedics that that are the police helicopter
22:00
unit got 28 units of O negative blood. For some reason, they
22:04
determined that I was the only person that was going to talk to
22:08
the press through the national story. So I walk outside the
22:12
emergency department for reporters are all there. And as
22:15
you know, often you can hear the question go into their earpiece,
22:19
lightly but before they asked the question, so they're
22:23
peppering me with questions. And Dr. Mayer, everybody was
22:26
interested in donating blood to help because they knew he had so
22:30
much blood. They said, you know, patient had 28 units of O
22:34
negative blood, what blood type? Is he in before I could think I
22:38
said, I don't know what he was before. But he's Oh, negative
22:42
now. And I thought, Oh, my God, I can't believe I just said
22:46
that. And I thought, Well, this has been a good job, you know,
22:49
I'll pick up a neck up the office, got a phone call from
22:53
the chief of police. And I thought, well, this is it, you
22:57
know, and he said, Doc, I just want to tell you, that's the
23:00
funniest thing I've ever heard of you real human being say. So,
23:04
you know, just trust your heart, as I said earlier, you know,
23:08
keep the patient in fraud, the people we serve in front of the
23:12
team, and yourself way, way back. CS Lewis, as you know,
23:16
said, you know, humility consists not of thinking less of
23:19
yourself, but thinking of yourself less. Don't be so
23:23
humble. You're not that great. Good advice to keep in mind.
23:26
Adam Outland: That's good advice. Quick round of
23:28
questions. These are just kind of quick answers. But we have a
23:32
lot of guests who've had a lot of different forms of success.
23:35
And something that's caused us to ask is, hey, you know,
23:39
success isn't quite universal in its definition. I'm kind of
23:42
curious for you, how you define success, and how you know when
23:46
you've achieved it?
23:47
Dr. Thom Mayer: Well, it's a corollary question deeply
23:50
related to, you know, the joy of which my deep joy is helping
23:54
others find and fully express their deep joy. So
23:58
understandably, my definition of success is the extent to which
24:02
I've been able to help them understand they are all leading,
24:06
because leadership is worthless, because it's just what you say.
24:11
And anybody can say anything. But leading is priceless,
24:15
because it's what you do all day, every day. And are you in
24:19
the course of what you do all day, every day, consistent to
24:23
your deep joy. That to me is success.
24:27
Adam Outland: The last thing I guess I love asking would be you
24:31
know, there's there's a young man, somewhere in the state of
24:34
Indiana, thought he was going to be a professional football
24:36
player. If you went through a portal in time and happened to
24:39
bump into this young man, what advice might you have given
24:42
yourself in that stage of life if you had the opportunity?
24:46
Dr. Thom Mayer: Well, the first thing I'd probably say goes, I
24:49
couldn't restrain myself. It'd be Are you out of your mind. But
24:53
when I was 11, I was on an all star baseball team at
24:56
Meadowbrook Little League. And ended up winning the city title,
25:00
which, in effect was the county title, the regional title at
25:04
that time was a big deal. We had two things that happened to us
25:08
as a result of that. The first of which I thought was the best
25:12
thing that could ever happen to a person in their life, which is
25:16
they put us on the top of fire engines, sirens, blazing, lights
25:20
flashing, and drove us all around the town with people
25:24
waving. And I thought it just doesn't get any better than
25:28
that, you know, just put put me to sleep. This is not going to
25:32
get any better. Well, it turned out I was wrong. Because we had
25:36
a banquet at the banquet, a guy named Carl Erskine. Carl was for
25:40
Anderson, Indiana, and he had played for the Brooklyn Dodgers,
25:44
and was the World Series strikeout record holder until
25:47
Sandy Kofax broke it. And he said something I'll never ever
25:51
forget, which was gentlemen, you can't do everything in life. No
25:55
one can. But he paused for a fact. And I can see him saying
25:59
it and hear the tone in his voice. He said, but any of you
26:03
can do any thing you choose to do. And I never forgot that, you
26:07
know, particularly when failure was looming when, you know, it
26:11
was like, okay, it can be done, you know, and that's why I say,
26:15
you know, read to lead. Curiosity, as you so correctly
26:19
said, that ability to see Yeah, it can be done. You know, it's
26:23
awesome. But Mandela said, it's always impossible until it's
26:27
done. The one great Mandela line of many is being resentful about
26:31
failing or being resentful towards other blaming failure on
26:35
others. He said, resentment is like drinking poison, and hoping
26:39
it'll kill your enemies. Yeah, shocker. Doesn't work, it kills you.
26:43
Adam Outland: Yeah. Wow, this has been an amazing interview
26:46
with a lot of good lessons. And you've managed to pack quite a
26:50
few those in the book that you've published as well. So
26:53
where can folks go at Tom just to track yourself and anything
26:57
else that you have?
26:58
Dr. Thom Mayer: The book is in leadership is worthless, but
27:01
meeting is priceless is available on Amazon or all major
27:05
sites. If you enjoy it, then please leave a review. Untold
27:09
that helps. If you don't enjoy it, read it, reach out to me,
27:13
because you can reach me at THONMYER. MD. So Tom Mayer
27:17
md@gmail.com. If I can help you in any way, I will need a phone
27:21
call. We need to zoom happy to do that. My deep joy is helping
27:26
others find their deep joy and fully express that. If there's
27:30
anything I can do to be helpful in that regard. It would be an honor.
27:35
Adam Outland: Right? And if they really really enjoy your book,
27:37
they can send you a bottle of Silver Oak.
27:41
Dr. Thom Mayer: Hahaha, well played, well played.
27:44
Adam Outland: Really appreciate your time today. Lots of wisdom
27:47
and picked a lot of good anecdotes as well. So appreciate
27:50
that.
27:51
Dr. Thom Mayer: Thanks so much. It's been my honor entirely.