Latest / The Steep Stuff Podcast / #101 - Rachel Tomajczyk

Transcript

#101 - Rachel Tomajczyk · The Steep Stuff Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, boys and girls, welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, james Lauriello.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited to bring you guys an episode with one of the greatest trailrunners of our time.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Miss Rachel Tomajek is on the pod Super excited for this one.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: In the lead up to the Sunipi Scramble and Broken Arrow Sky Race.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: We caught up with Rachel just after she got back from the Great China Wall Race, which was a Golden Trail Series race that took place over in China.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: So we got to catch up, talk about that race, talk about her 2024 and plans for 2025 season.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: We got into a lot.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: This was a great episode.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: We talked all about Rachel's past.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: I actually had no idea she was such a decorated athlete in college as well as ran professionally on the track and road just before making her way onto the trail.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Like I said, one of the most decorated and consistent athletes in our sport.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Rachel has just set the world on fire in the last few years and I'm so excited to see where her career continues to take.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Her, the athlete for Merrill, was pretty candid.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: We talked about some contract stuff.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: We talked about what it was like being a professional athlete in the sport at such a high level Training.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: We talked a lot about training, theory, training solo and training with partners, which was kind of an interesting mental conversation, which was cool too.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: And last but not least, we got into the agent conversation.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Rachel was pretty candid.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: She does work with an agent and I just had so many questions to learn a little bit more about what that life was like and just how agents can kind of help you in the sport, and I know there's a lot of uh aspiring pros that listen to this podcast.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: So it was kind of a fun conversation to talk about the kind of the pros and cons of working with an agent and just a lot of the pros, um, you know, in a big way it really helps.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, really fun conversation.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Uh, rachel like is such a bad-ass really and excited to bring this one to you.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: It's time.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: We'll see you next time.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
• 2:59
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• 3:25
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• 3:32
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• 3:41
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• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Rachel to my check, welcome to the steep stuff podcast.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: How are you?
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm good.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me on.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm super stoked to have this conversation.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is a sub ultra podcast and you're probably one of the biggest female names and sub ultra, so I'm stoked to finally have this convo.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: How are you doing today?
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks, yeah, yeah, I'm great.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I just got back from Sedona about 20 minutes ago.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: So my husband and I were down there just exploring, running in trails this weekend and it was super fun.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I got back from China a couple like over a week ago or so.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: So I'm adjusting to the time and getting back, but, yeah, doing well.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: How are you?
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: I'm doing good, doing good.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: It's Monday, just finished up a work day, kind of, so yeah no complaints.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: It's a rest day, recovery day, getting ready for, you know, some racing down the lane.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Um, I guess all through two out.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: So yeah, no no, what are you training for right now?
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Uh, I'm going to, I think I'm going to do most of the Cirque series races, probably all.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to do soon a P, but I'm just trying to figure out, like between travel and family and all this, like what's going to work out with that.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: So I think I'm probably gonna open up my uh, probably it's Cirque series cannon.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: So cool, okay, yeah, those are really fun races.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: yeah, last year I did most of I think I did, but it was like Alta.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I did Brighton, alta um Grand Targi and one other one I knew.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it was a blast.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Super fun so yeah, that's awesome.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about you, let's um.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: So you just got back from China a very looked like a brutal race, like yeah let's talk.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that how was uh like your experience?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: And then we'll talk about how the race unfolded for you.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the experience was awesome.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I love the golden trail series races because they just go to the most epic locations and they also bring really really good competition.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: So I think that that's kind of the fun part of it is they're really highly competitive races, but also in really really cool and amazing places and they're all over the world.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: So you really get to explore and I think that that's a really fun part of it.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: And then I think that it's so cool Like you're hanging out with the rest of the elite athletes kind of during the week, because you all kind of just like travel around to the races and so it's very cool to be in this environment where there's people from Spain and Italy and the US and Japan and China and you're all together in what, for most of you, is a foreign country.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's just kind of this like experience where you're surrounded by a bunch of different cultures, both because you're in a different culture, like living in a different culture, but also there's so many people around you from different cultures.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: So it's fun to just get to know the athletes and the people that you're competing with and also be in an amazing place and experience something new together.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's a really really fun thing to do.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Super cool, Is it your?
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: This was your second, second time in China.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I know it was like you raised last year as well.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I went over last year.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: So, um yeah, second time in China, but it was a different location than last year.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: So, uh yeah, different race course and different place that we were in in China.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, let me ask you this from an American going over there Is it an easy process?
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: I've never been to Asia.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: No, it is not an easy process, so you have to get a visa to go over there, and so there's only, I think, four or five locations to get visas, and you have to go in person and, based on where you live is where you have to go.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: So, since I live in Arizona, our place that we have to go to get a visa is in LA.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: So I had to go to LA and get a visa and you go there one day and you have to apply in person and then they look over the application for five business days and then you go back and get it.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: So I had to go to LA and be there in person for like a week to get a visa and then, once you get your visa, you can go over.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: I think I have a 10 year visa, so I'm good for 10 years and can go, but getting the visa is kind of hard.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: I know one of my friends was in Utah and I think her place that she had to go was DC or New York or something like that.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: It was like really, it's really weird how they're divided up, but it's a hard process to like get in, but then once you're in, you can go and it's like kind of easy, other than the travel is really long over there.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: So interesting.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how long is the plane ride for you, like that's gotta be um, I went up to Vancouver.
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: Um, well, I have a leg where I have to like go from here to Vegas, um, which is like a three hour drive, and then Vegas to Vancouver and then Vancouver over to Beijing.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: So I think Vancouver to Beijing was 12 and a half hours.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: So since I'm on the West Coast ish, it's not quite as far of travel as if I were on the East Coast, but yeah, yeah it's, it's definitely far.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt that's so crazy, like now when you get there, like I know, cause, like the, the, the golden trail series, they kind of call themselves what like the traveling circus?
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Like is everybody?
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: it's everybody comes from so many different countries.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Like how is that, like, as an American athlete going over, did you travel with any, like with your husband, or did you go with other athletes when you get over there?
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Is there like direction on like how to get to where you're going, cause, like I'm sure the race isn't that like it can't be close right?
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, it's not close.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: So the series does a really good job at least with, like the elite athletes, which it's kind of like if you were in the top 30 last year, then you're kind of you kind of have an end with them.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So it's a little bit hard to get in.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: But then once you're in the door they set up everything really really well for you.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: And I feel like even if you have like a top 10 finish but you weren't in the top 30 the previous year, like if you, if it's your first year doing golden trail series, then they'll kind of take care of you too.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: So once you have a really good result or you're in the top 30, you're kind of taken care of.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: But basically I showed up at the airport at Beijing and somebody was there to help me get to where I needed to go.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: And if you go in like in a big group I got there a couple of days before the big group came over because I didn't do Japan and everyone from Japan was coming over, I think a day or two after I did.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: But I came in, somebody picked me up from the taxi, brought me to a hotel and then a couple of days later everyone else came over, stayed at the same hotel and then we bussed over to the race course and then, once we're there, we were in a hotel that was like a mile or so away from the Great Wall and the section that we were running on the Great Wall.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: So it was really easy and they have food there for us and everything.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: So I think they do a really good job of taking care of athletes once you're there.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: That's like five-star service.
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Right there they get you it really is, yeah, and they always do a good job of like doing stuff fun afterwards.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: So, like we went to the Forbidden City in Beijing after the race, like the day after, and we got to like do a tour there, and so, yeah, I think they do a really good job of kind of like bringing in this cultural experience where you get to learn about Chinese culture or Japanese culture.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Wherever you are like that culture, so that's that's a cool thing.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Wherever you are like that culture, um, so that's that's a cool thing too.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: That's super cool.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: I gotta ask you this, as an American that you cause you travel a good amount for races like all over the world.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: I gotta ask you this, like, is it tricky, like trying to figure out diet and food?
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Like, cause, I guess the thing I would get there and be like, well, you know, got to try some of the street food or this, that, and be like, well, you know, got to try some of the street food or this, that and the other, like obviously you've got to be careful with different things.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: So, like, how are you like are you careful with your diet when you go over there to not get sick?
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Like, how does that work for you?
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I am so, um, I have a weird diet too because, um, so I found out a couple of years ago that, uh, I'm allergic to gluten and to like dairy as well.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: So I already have like a weird diet.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: But some cultures it's a lot easier to navigate.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: That, like, if I go over to Italy, it's a lot harder because a lot of their stuff is like a lot of carbs and a lot of pasta that has gluten in it.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: But other places like China, it's a lot easier and usually, like the races over there, we have kind of like a buffet style um set up, I guess, so you have like your rice and then some like veggies and then meat over here.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: But um, yeah, I think it was.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: It was easier in China um, for me.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: But some places are hard and then a lot of times, like if I go to Europe, I feel pretty comfortable getting around on my own.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: So sometimes it is fun to be in that environment with the other elite athletes.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: If it's in a culture that's like very, very foreign to me, like Eastern culture, I have no idea how to read anything in Mandarin or anything like that.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know Chinese characters, so it's harder for me to travel around.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: But in a place like Europe where I can kind of pick up on other languages or like know how to get around, it's a little bit easier.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: So for those races sometimes I'll rent a car or like kind of just be on my own, because sometimes it is nice to like not always be around your direct competition and be in this like environment where you're always thinking about the race, and if I do that, I'll just like rent an Airbnb on my own and I can cook food.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: Um, there, that is like that I know I can eat, and things like that.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: So sometimes it's hard, sometimes it's easier, but I feel like I kind of have a rhythm for me that has worked.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Super cool.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: That's very interesting.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about the race.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: So you get over there, obviously, the race.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: These races are a little bit interesting because they start at like weird times.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Like I know, some of them start in the afternoon.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: Was this an afternoon one for you, or?
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: It was weird it was at two in the afternoon because they had a tourist race is what they called it earlier in the day, and so everybody went out.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I think they were maybe racing a 50 K, or a 50 K was an option.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: So they all started in the morning, I think at seven or so, and then our race was at two.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, and why?
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the help unfolded for you.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Like, obviously you had a great result, top 10 finish in a very stacked women's field.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Um, brutal, like it seemed like that course, like you're running on the actual great wall, which I thought was really neat how they incorporated that into the race and I also thought the coverage was amazing.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Um, maybe, maybe talk about your race, how it unfolded for you, and then we can kind of get into more of the nitty gritty of it.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in this race I felt really, really good until I didn't basically, um, I think, uh, I live up in Flagstaff, arizona, or near Flagstaff and Williams it's 30 minutes over, but on that same plateau.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: So it snows up here in the winter and it's really hard to get up into the mountains just because there's a ton of snow and ice on them.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: So, um, I can get in like climbing with treadmill vert, but you can't practice any of the downhills and you can't really get into really, really steep stuff.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll go down to Sedona and climb, but a lot of their trails even are just like not super mountainy, they're just like rolling hills and stuff.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: So it's harder to find a place that has vert like that.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: So it's harder to find a place that has vert like that, like in Arizona.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And I'll go places sometimes to train just for a week or so, but I definitely feel like I am in better shape towards the end of the season when I'm really able to get into trails that have a lot of vert, or I can go to ski resorts and like hike up really steep stuff.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think it was a little bit hard to train for it and I knew that going into this race, but, um, I also knew that it was a good opportunity just to get in an early season race and hopefully get some points for the series so that I didn't have to worry about it as much later on in the season.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think I started off and I felt really good until we hit about like 4000 feet of climbing and descending and then my legs were just like gone and the rest of the race was pretty tough.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I, my calves were like cramping going on the downhills because they were so, so steep.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Calves were like cramping going on the downhills because they were so, so steep.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Um, and the uphills were like my heart rate was just like flying.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I think it was a hard race, like the last five miles or so, but I'm glad that I made it through.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I think I did better in this race than I did in China last year.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: So I feel like my fitness level is higher at this point of the season than it was last year.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: But I also feel like I have a lot of room to grow, which is really where I like to be at this point in the season, because I think I really like to try to peak at the end of the season when the most important races are.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: So I'm okay, like not being in great shape right now, or at least not great trail shape.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: I think aerobically I'm in like solid shape, but I feel good about where I'm at now and still have room to grow and improve over the season.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: I like that perspective, especially because you meet a lot of athletes that want to race a lot of things up front.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Maybe they get really busy in June and July and then September comes around and they're pooped.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I think it's a really smart way to kind of approach a season, you know.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks, yeah.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I've just like learned that I could either hold a fitness level that's kind of a medium fitness level for the entire season, or I could be in like pretty good shape at the beginning of the season and then really good shape at the end of the season, and I would rather do that than kind of like be medium all season long.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: For sure, For sure.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: Course specifics.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, how did you feel?
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Cause that looked to me like the only thing I could think of.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: That was like similar to that was like running down the Manitou incline.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Cause we get.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: I live in Colorado Springs and obviously we have like what, what?
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: how did the like were your knee shot after running down those steps and up those steps?
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Like how did that feel for you?
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: And like it was also pretty hot, like how did you deal with, or looked hot, but how did you deal with that heat?
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: It was hot compared to like where, coming from winter to going somewhere where it's warmer, it was hot.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: I think, um, maybe it was like in the seventies or something like that, so it wasn't crazy like 80 or 90, but it was hot for like an ideal, for ideal racing conditions.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: And then I think, yeah, the Great Wall was the part that I was like most nervous for, I think, going into the race, but it was probably the most fun part of the race for me.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the steps were like weird, but I felt like I kind of got in a good rhythm on them and yeah, it was weird because it was just changing all the time, like sometimes you were going up really steep steps, sometimes you were going down really steep steps and then there were sections to that felt more like a road section, but it was still like going up and down, because it kind of just follows the terrain of the mountains and the wall is like going up and down through the mountains.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: So it was cool.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And it was also fun because there were a lot of people on the wall while we were racing and they were like cheering for us Um, the cheer that Chinese people say.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's really cool racing in different countries to hear what different people say.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: But they say Gaio.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: So there's like a section where a bunch of people were lined up on the steps and they were all cheering like Gaio.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Gaio for us like running up the wall and that was like one of my favorite parts of the race.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: So it was really cool to experience that.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: And then, yeah, I think my legs felt okay on the wall.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: But the rest of the race course I've never run a race like this where it was just constantly up and down the entire time and really steep ups followed by like really steep downs.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: So I don't think any of the climbs lasted for longer than like a quarter mile or half a mile, but they were like really, really steep and then you descend just as short and steep, um, and that was like through the whole race.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: So no, like huge mountain climbs, but just like a lot of really steep inclines and declines.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: So I think by the end my legs were just like really hurting.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's hard to like, especially early season, it's hard to get anything specific enough in to be ready for something like that.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: Right Like, and you don't almost like don't want to do something, like I mean, it's maybe a few sessions, but like don't want to do a crazy amount of sessions before end to be, like you said, like ready for something I don't know it's, it's gotta be tricky.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little tricky, but I think um at the same time, those are both really good races to get in um early in the season and, if nothing else, it's kind of like a good training run.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Even though it's a race like I took it seriously and everything but um, I think it kind of like shocked my legs a little bit and now they're stronger for the rest of the season.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: For sure, for sure, and I think, confidence wise too, I think it does something for the confidence early in the season to say, okay, where do I stack up against these other ladies and you know where are they at in their fitness journey for this season, and things like that.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: So I think that that's, I guess you know, I don't know, like confidence, going into races like broken arrow and things like that.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: They're going to be, you know, heating up for the rest of the season.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you about last year's race just because that one was a different course.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: That one was like snowy and much more high altitude as well, like that was completely different, right.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was also a brutal course, but more just because of the altitude, I think, and because I also did Japan last year.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: So that course is even more steep than, or even steeper than, the course that we did in China, and it has like four climbs in it.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: You kind of do like these little loops and you start at the top and then you go down and up and down and up four times and each time you go through the aid station.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of a cool setup for spectators because they can just stand at the top of the mountain and see it.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: But anyway, that was the race in Japan and I think it had 7,000 feet of gain and descent and maybe 14 miles.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: So it's like really really steep.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: And so I did that race before China.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: So my legs were already really tired and then we went up and the base, like where we stayed at for the race in China, I think, was at 12,000 feet.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: So you're trying to like recover from this really intense race at the start of the season and then you're also up at really really high altitude and then you race really high and that was the starting point and we climbed to like over 14,000 feet in the race.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: So it got.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really high and that was the starting point and we climbed to like over 14,000 feet in the race.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: So it got.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really high up there.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: So that's like a Pike's peak, like almost part of that.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then, like I don't know, I just remember seeing like things, like it was sloppy and snowy and just complete like a cool course, different, it's unique.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, different course yeah.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Cause I feel like, even like I know you live at altitude, I live at altitude, but like there's no way I could like prep for like a 14, like, unless I slept in an altitude tent.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Like, yeah, maybe in the winter get up to 10 000 feet if you're lucky, but like, right, unless you're on skis it's gonna be really hard, you know totally yeah, yeah, yeah it was.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: It was a wild race, but yeah, also a really cool experience and um, yeah, that race was fun.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: They were like yaks on the course too and there were some horses that were out there, so it was just like kind of fun and like I wouldn't experience that here.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, fun races Super cool.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: So you, you live in Arizona.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: You're not too far outside of Flagstaff.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: How do you, how do you like living in that area, like it's?
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Obviously, you're at altitude, you're, you're what?
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: 20, 30 minutes outside of flag.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Like so you're like in town, but not like you kind of get separated from it, which is a little bit nicer, so you're not in the mix.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: How do you like it?
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I like it.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: I think um Williams doesn't have a ton of trails.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: We have one mountain, bill Williams.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: That's like a 2000 foot climb, so it's a good climb and a solid mountain to train on and it has two ways that you can get up to the mountain, really three.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: There's a fire road that you can run to get up there, so it has some solid places to train.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: But going over to Flag there's even more trails.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: And then I think the thing that I like about Arizona is that you can be on trails and be running the whole year round.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: I think the thing that I like about Arizona is that you can be on trails and be running the whole year round.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of trail runners, or some trail runners, will ski in the winter and then run in the summer.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: But I don't know how to ski.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: I grew up in Texas and then just like, didn't learn when I was older and haven't learned yet.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: So I run all year round.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: So I think it's nice living in Arizona because you can go down to Sedona or down to Phoenix to train in the um winters when it's snowy up in Flagstaff, and then also I like to get in kind of a road build or a speed build going like in the winter, um, just to like keep my legs feeling fast and stuff, Um.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it's a good place to train and there's plenty of trails and lots of fun places to explore too.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, do you.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: So I know, obviously it's like a Mecca for athletes as well.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Like do you train solo more or do you train with any training partners, especially like for certain builds?
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Like what is it like there for you?
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do train solo most of the time.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: There's some really great runners over in Flagstaff, but I would say I'm probably like 40 or 45 minutes from like or like a big long run route where I'm really trying to stay focused and I want to be able to like run the pace that I want to run.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: So I think, like recovery days, sometimes it's fun to meet up with people, but it's also, um, I do a lot of stuff like outside of running too, so sometimes it's not worth it for me to like travel an hour and a half or two hour round trip just to go for a recovery run.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I think there's a balance there, but, um, I enjoy training alone too, and my husband runs, so I'll run with him some on recovery days.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I like that.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I think there's something to be said about training solo.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I I've dabbled with training partners and I don't mean wrong.
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: I love like on certain workouts and stuff like that.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: It's fun.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: But I actually enjoy a lot more just training by myself, like.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I just feel like you can hit it's, you can be more deliberate and more specific with what you're trying to do, whereas if you're trying to get other people to run with you, it's always a pain in the neck, cause it's like do you want to go here?
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Nah, I got to do this and I have to hit this.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes it a little more complicated, so I totally, totally yeah.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my husband and I were actually talking about this running um this weekend because in high school I had a really amazing group of girls that I trained with and it was really fun to train with them and I loved um training in that group.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: And then I think, as I started running pro, some of the groups that I was in it just felt really competitive and I feel like there's a shift when you're running professionally, where it's like if you're all Americans training together and you're training to try to make a team or something like that, there's like limited spots on that team, and so if you're training with like four or five training partners that are all American, like you're not all making the team.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of like this weird competitive mindset within practice that I don't know is like healthy or helpful, because then it's like either you're trying to like beat your training partners to prove something in a workout or uh, I don't know, there's just like a lot of like mental games that go on.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I feel like dynamics.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's, it's interesting, it's.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: It's like three-dimensional chess.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't, I don't know how I feel about it.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: It's interesting, though, like yeah yeah, totally, and there's people that aren't like that, and I have really great friends and the trails that aren't like that at all.
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: But I think you kind of I was talking about this with one of my friends that I do enjoy training with, but I think that there's this like um, you have to like test people out, kind of, and it's like okay, let's go for an easy run.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: And then you go on the easy run and based off of that, you can see like could we do a workout together?
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Could I go for a long run with you?
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: And like so it's funny.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: You say, like I've trained with a couple of people and I'm like sometimes you just want to go do an easy day, or you want to do this or that, and it's like why is this person trying to break me?
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Like why is that and?
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: I'm like I don't want to run with you because, like you just want to, like there's a day for me to crush you, right?
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: Like I don't that's not today, like I'm just trying to enjoy it, right?
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting dynamic.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this a lot lately, so yeah, yeah, well, me too, I guess.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: So you had said something about high school that and I think it's important Like I don't want to gloss over your accolades and some of the incredible like feats that you've had I honestly I had no idea.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: I obviously was aware of you being a total dominator and crusher on the trail.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I had no idea that you had such an extensive background at Steeple and everything you did in high school and college.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: So maybe let's backtrack a little bit and maybe talk about some of your high school things, some of the things you did in high school and then your time at Baylor as well.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: So I lived in Dallas growing up in Plano.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: I lived there all through elementary school to high school same school system and everything.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I started running there.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: I discovered that I liked running because my elementary school PE coach was the cross-country coach at the high school that I would go to.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: And he realized early on when I was the high school that I would go to.
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: And he realized like early on when I was in elementary school that I loved running and really encouraged me in that growing up through elementary school.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: But I didn't really start competing.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Uh, we had we didn't have cross country in middle school, but we had track in middle school.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: So I started, um, just competing running and track in middle school.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: But I didn't really train until I got into high school.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: And then, uh, in high school I eventually joined a club team that was in Dallas.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Um, I think my cross country coach in high school was, uh, I don't know if she knew exactly how training worked as well.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I think she was like great at being there for me and like wanted me to succeed and stuff, but maybe just didn't know exactly how to do that.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: So she was great about letting me be coached by somebody outside of um the Plano school system and he really, really helped me.
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: He was an amazing coach and um, I still talk with him from time to time today.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Um, but yeah, he's awesome and he really taught me about training and things like that.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: So, um, once I started training with him, uh, I ended up winning nationals in high school um for Nike cross nationals, and so that was like one of the biggest races.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: I think that I won um in high school and that was really awesome and then went to Baylor, steep, steepled there, did the 5k, 10k a little bit, but steeple ended up being kind of the main thing that I focused on and I think it took a couple of years for me to adjust in college, but once I did, I had a good college career and it was a really fun time at Baylor.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Maybe you talk about your experience there.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Like I know, I speak to a lot of people that go D1, obviously, and it's like a mixed bag.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Like Dan, for instance, is like I'd say I put him like at your level as far as like experience wise at that big D1 level, like what and he talks about he had a horrible experience and I talked to a lot of people that just like hate their situation.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: What was yours like?
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Like do you have a great coach, and how was that for you?
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I really liked my coach.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: He was awesome.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: I felt like he always was encouraging me and wanting me to be at my best and I think that he helped me develop as like a whole person instead of just an athlete.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: I think the first couple of years were really hard for me because I think both he and I had like goals that we wanted to achieve.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Because he knew, going into college, I wanted to run after college and stuff and, um, I wanted to be an all American in college and things like that.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: But I just was not doing that.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: My freshman and sophomore year and I think it's a really hard adjustment to college for a lot of athletes because you're on your own for the first time.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: You're having to figure out what it looks.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Sophomore year and I think it's a really hard adjustment to college for a lot of athletes because you're on your own for the first time.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: You're having to figure out what it looks like to manage your own time and create your own schedule and how much sleep are you going to get at night and what are you eating and things like that.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: So I think I just had a hard time adjusting to some of those little things and my coach was really honest with me and gave me really good feedback.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: That was also hard to hear, where I think he could see things that I couldn't see, and we had some hard conversations where he was hard on me, but I think it was like kind of tough love and it was never like demeaning or anything.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: It was just like hey, if you want to be here, you're not doing the things that you need to be here.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I think he was really great and then I kind of my junior year really took off and started doing better.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Um, I think a hard thing for me, um, in college was I did develop an eating disorder my junior year in college.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: So I think I took some of the things that we talked about about like doing the little things well, like nutrition.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: I just took it to the far extreme and that was not good either.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: So I think I really had to like find that balance, and I don't think I found it quite in college, but I found it afterward and still enjoyed running through college.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah, yeah.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: That's interesting, maybe, so let's let's talk about how finishing college and then you go professional and like, let's talk about that, how that transition was for you to kind of go pro.
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: How long were you pro, like on the tracks and stuff like that, and what was that experience like, cause I don't think I've talked to anybody on this podcast that's actually gone pro on the track.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I think you're the first.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think, um, it was weird because I was kind of in that um time where I was still trying to figure out the balance and I think I had really good support through the athletic training staff and my coach at Baylor through having an eating disorder and they really like helped me through that time.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: But then I was kind of on my own right after college and I don't know if I had completely worked through everything that I needed to work through before.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: All those resources were kind of gone and I was like more on my own and I moved out to South Carolina to be on a team out there and I think that was when I started getting injured a lot.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: So I think with eating disorders they don't really catch up to you until like a couple of years later.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: So I hadn't gotten injured all through college but I started having a ton of injuries.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Just like every five to six months I would get injured.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: So I'd have start feeling like I was in good shape and have a really good training um block for a few months and then I would get injured.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: So I had Achilles tendonitis like a few times.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Um post-tib tendonitis.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: Um, I had a stress fracture in my toe, I had a stress fracture in my femur, so, um, yeah, a lot of injuries.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: So I think running pro on the road and the track was really, really fun, but I it was also like a lot of injuries and I was still kind of trying to figure out what I needed to do to take care of myself and to be healthy and also the way that I needed to train and the like situation that I needed to train and like with training partners.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Like, do I want to train with training partners?
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Is it?
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: better for me to train on my own.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: How much volume can I handle Things like that?
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: So dealing with an eating disorder that's.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've actually had quite a few people on the podcast in general that have dealt with this.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Did you, as you were working through it, did you have to stop running or did you continue to run while you were working through it?
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: How were you able to kind of get through that?
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: I did continue to run all the way through it.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: I think I don't know if that was good for me, if I should have stopped, but I kept going because it was kind of my senior year of college and it felt like if I stopped I would lose a lot of momentum.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I kept going through it.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: But I think over time I just realized, through getting injured over and over again, like I really need to take care of my body and, honestly, you feel better when you eat properly and you're keeping up with nutrition.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: So I think it took a really really long time and I just had to be patient with myself and kind of learn lessons on my own and get to a place where I wanted to heal.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Also because I think that was the thing like my athletic trainers at Baylor were really really good about helping me get resources to heal, but I don't think I was like ready to at that point.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: So I think you kind of have to hit rock bottom on your own and then figure out how to move forward through that.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that was kind of like my the start of my pro career was like hitting rock bottom and then figuring out like okay, I do want to take care of myself and like I need to pull myself up from here.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: That's amazing, that's and it's got to be.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: It's a hard decision to make, right?
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Like obviously, like I feel like at that high level, you think in your, a lot of people think in their head like I feel like at that high level, you think in your, a lot of people think in their head like the lighter I am, the the better I'm going to be.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: But that's so far from the truth and it's like I have to make that mental switch.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Has got to be.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Like I have a cousin that just went through um and was dealing with, uh, an eating as a serious eating disorder.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: So it's, it's very near and dear to my heart and it's so sad to see so many people struggle with it.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Like more people than.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: I ever thought which is really crazy.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, and I think it was hard for me too because, um, for me it was only really linked to athletic performance.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Like I didn't, the looks of like being lighter didn't matter to me as much as being faster.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: And I think I started getting faster when I like started losing weight in college because, like I was saying, I was trying to find that balance and I think I could have been eating better nutritionally and that would have helped me my freshman and sophomore year, um, to be eating healthier and more balanced.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: Um, and I wasn't doing that.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: But then I went to the far extreme.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: But it was tough because I also changed so many other things at that time, like I started sleeping more, I started um, taking care of my schedule better, in time management better.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I went to a sports psychologist that really, really helped me to think through races and how I was racing mentally.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: So there were so many good things that were happening at that time too, where I was taking care of myself better with sleep and like the mentality of racing and everything like that.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: But all I saw in my mind was that I was getting lighter, so I was getting faster, and so I think that was hard to really convince myself that lighter didn't equal faster, just because that's what I attributed the speed to for so long.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's so interesting, so crazy, and kudos to you for working through it and overcoming it.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: And you know, look where you are now, which is pretty, pretty darn cool.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Thanks, I got it.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: So I do want to double back.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: I went through your Wikipedia page which I was pretty cool.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: I was like I was like this is dope.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: I was like you're one of the few athletes I've had on this podcast, because trail not too many trail athletes get like Wikipedia.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: I just think it's awesome.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: I saw in there you had worked with Ryan Hall as a coach.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, can you talk about that experience and what that was like?
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: That was awesome, yeah.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: So when I decided that I was going to leave South Carolina and the team that I was on there I was getting injured too much, so I was like, okay, I think I need a different thing and some other girls on the team were moving on too.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: So it felt like the right time to move on and I had always really looked up to him and to Sarah Hall growing up.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: So he announced right when I was deciding that I was going to leave South Carolina that he was going to start coaching pros in Flagstaff and we always went to Flagstaff for altitude training when I was in South Carolina.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: So it kind of just seemed like it worked out perfectly because I loved the training trips that we took to Flagstaff and I knew that I loved that area.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I ended up reaching out, emailing him, asking if he would coach me and he said that he would.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: So I went out there and he was an awesome coach.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: I think he also helped me just become stronger mentally and I think I was on the back end of healing from having an eating disorder and he kind of pushed me really into the okay like being healthy is the right thing that I need to do and really helped me through that.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: Even I don't yeah, even if I didn't tell him up front like I have an eating disorder.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: I need to work through this.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: I think he is just so pro like being healthy mentally and physically that he helped me grow in that way too.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: That's super crazy.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, if anybody is the person to teach and help, like it's probably him.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I mean like that kind of ended his pretty much ended his career in a lot of ways, which is wild.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's interesting.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: So I got to thread the needle between that and and trails.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: So like where did where did you start getting trail curious?
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: Was there a specific race you saw In college?
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Were you even remotely aware that trails?
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: This could be a future for you?
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: No not at all.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, there's a couple of things.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: I ended up because I was still getting injured when I was working with Ryan.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: Like I said, I was on the back end of having the eating disorder and kind of healing for that from that.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: But I think also, like I said, it takes a couple of years, I think, for your body to really, after you get better and like are at a healthy weight.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I think it still takes some time for your body to like no, okay, we're good now and not be injured and be able to like really train hard.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: So I was still getting injured and at that point I was like I don't know if I'm going to be able to like keep running professionally.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: And there is an opening at a college to coach and that college coach reached out to me, asked if I would coach for them.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: So I ended up moving out to Virginia and coaching D1 for a couple of years, which was really fun, um, and the college that I coached at was, uh, liberty and they have like 60 miles of trails like on campus, um, and that's where we would do like easy runs on and, um, things like that.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: So I kind of started like sticking my feet into trails.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: But those trails they're not like crazy technical or anything like that, um so, but they're really hilly and like lots of ups and downs.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: So I kind of enjoyed running on those trails.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: But we were also really close to the Appalachian trail and I think when I first moved out to Virginia, um, I went out to that trail and I looked at it and I was like there's no way anyone could run this and, um, I was still like training on the roads and track.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: But then a couple years later I was feeling like actually, maybe a year later I was feeling really burned out from the road and the track and it was like frustrating me that I had told myself that I couldn't run the Appalachian Trail.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: So I was like I'm just gonna do it, like I'm not.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I think I'm not going to be able to run well in this track season because I'm feeling like kind of burned out right now.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: So like if I twist my ankle or whatever on the Appalachian Trail, it doesn't matter as much now, there's not as much risk for an injury.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: So I'm just I'm gonna do it it.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: And I did it and I loved it and I realized that I could do something, that I thought that I couldn't do, um, so that was really cool.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: And then a couple of my friends who were also steeplers had gotten into the trails also um, courtney Covinger, who was also over in China, and then, uh, grayson Murphy um, had both gotten into the trails and we lived in Flagstaff all together when I was living in Flagstaff.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: So I knew them and I knew they had, like, transitioned over to the trail.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: So I was like maybe I could do that too.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I signed up for my first trail race and, yeah, it was a really good experience.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you so Grayson, that's so interesting.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: So you knew Grayson before.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: Grayson was Grayson then yeah, I mean she is still Grayson.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like she had an amazing college career steepling, and then I think she had a harder time in Flagstaff.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: She was on NAZ and you could talk with her about her experience there, I'm sure.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think she just didn't.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: The training didn't click with her some probably, or there were other things going on, but um, yeah, she ended up switching over to the trails and then that's like the grayson that you probably know yeah, yeah, yeah, just like comes onto the scene and like wins worlds and she's so talented and the trail so.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I knew her when she was running on the roads and track.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so did you compete against her in college as well, or no?
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Um, I don't know.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: We may have raced against each other once or twice, but I think I left college when she started like getting really good in college because, she started.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: She uh played soccer in college for a while and then transferred to Utah and then started running.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: But that was like the first time she ever ran in her whole life.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: So I think it probably took her like a year before she was like really, really good in college.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: That's so interesting, Like it's just cool to me because, like you guys are the top, you know the top American women in our sport and how it kind of goes back.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: It's the same thing, like with garrett corcoran and like dan kurtz like I didn't know.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: They knew each other in college and high school like that's bananas, so it's kind of interesting how some of the top athletes in our sport like go all the way back, like years and years so yeah, people don't really thread the needle and connect the dots, which is kind of cool.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: So so yeah, yeah, yeah, me and Courtney and Grayson have been friends for a while, so yeah, super cool.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you so was there a particular race that you jumped?
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Like what was your first race?
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Like I, obviously there's some stuff on ultra sign up and like UTMB, but like that stuff only goes back so far.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: So like it's as far as.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Like that shows like you entered the sport.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: Like what 2021, somewhere in that range.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was 2021.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, what was?
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: the first couple of, was it?
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: I think it was what's the race that's in Washington or in Portland the um?
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: There was a U S mountain running champs there, yeah.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: Well, my first one was the Narnar, yeah, yeah.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: So that was my first one that I did and I think I did it because, um, like I knew that Grayson had done that style of racing like the classic mountain races, and she was going out there, courtney was going out there, and it was also kind of familiar to me because that is in like the realm of USATF and I'd done USATF road racing and track racing and stuff like that and I'd done championships on the road and the track.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: So it felt like a doable distance to me because I think it was just a 10k or so.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: So it was like a good race to like dip my toe into the trails with, I thought, because I didn't want to just immediately like throw myself into an ultra I know some people do that on the trails and they're great at ultras like immediately, but coming from like a track and road background, it seemed better for me just to like do one of the shorter distances.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I did that and ended up making the team um and coming second behind Grayson in that race.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: So I was like, yeah, that was a really fun race and maybe I'm good at trails.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: It's a steeple or thing.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: I feel like the steeple is so good when they come on over.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: I asked I actually talked to Allie Mac about the semi recently and she said something to do with heart rate.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Like you're the way you can keep your heart rate like stable.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Um something like that.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: She said I can't remember, but I was.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: I think that I think to me it seems like, um, some kind of athleticism in it too, because I think if you're a steepler, you need to know how to hurdle and how to like move your body in space and know how it looks in space too, and I think some runners don't know like have spatial awareness or like that kind of athleticism, because you don't necessarily need to if you're just running like flat and straight on a track or a road.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: So, um, I think that's some of it too, just like the athleticism of it.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: But I feel like whenever I hear someone who's like on the road or track and they're like coming over to trails if they're a steepler, I'm like, oh yeah, they and they're like coming over to trails if they're a steepler, I'm like, oh yeah, they'll probably actually be really good at trails.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: And then if they're somebody that's running on the road, it's like, maybe hit or miss, like you might be really good and that would be awesome, or you might not be good at all it's so true.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: I was just like.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: I just had oakley olsen on the pod recently and she's gearing up.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: She was the collegiate, you know.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you've probably bumped into her before and she, you know, it's just interesting to me because it seems like there's such more of a safer sport in 2021.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: I have to be, honest with you you're one of the most consistent athletes in our sport like hands down you're always top 10 or podium.
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: Uh, consistently, consistently doing well um it's.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: It's just really interesting.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: It's it's cool to see, like, how you've evolved and grown are.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I gotta ask you this, because I know you attempted black Canyon back in 2023.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Are you still ultra curious or do you think you'll continue your career and stay in sub-ultra for the rest of it?
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I really do like the sub-ultra distance and I think that's what I learned doing Black Canyon.
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: But also I don't know, I had done long runs where I was doing 25 to 30 mile long runs for Black Canyon and feeling really good and like didn't have any kind of like stomach issues or anything like that.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: And then I got in the race at Black Canyon and was like throwing up like 15 miles in like very early on and I don't know if I felt off that day or if I just went out way too quick or something like that, or just like wasn't doing nutrition right.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: But, um, yeah, I felt totally different that day than um, like some of the training runs that I had gone on.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: So I don't know, I think, um, I'm like a little bit scared after that to try it because I just like, yeah, it was like such a bad race experience for me but the training was so fun and I really liked the training and I do.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: I think I like in the sub ultra distances, I kind of like the golden trail series distances that are like the two and a half to three hour distances as opposed to like the one hour like vk, um, but I think sub ultra is tough because it's such a big range.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: It could be like a 45 minute or hour long race, or it could be like a three to four hour race, and it's still sub ultra.
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's true.
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: And then you know, and that's the thing too, like topography matters as well like, is it altitude?
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Like sometimes it could be a significantly longer race, even though though it's shorter, like short distance, but it just happens to be tough terrain, it slows it down, it's interesting.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: That's cool to know.
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: I'm think I also realized like I wasn't hitting a plateau really in the sub ultra distances when I decided to try Black Canyon, so, um, I think that was one of the things that made me like, stay with sub ultra Cause I was like I'm not it's not like I don't enjoy this, or I'm like hitting a plateau.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: And I also really love racing and I feel like with ultras you can only race a couple of times a year and the sub ultra distance you can race like all the time, so that's fun too.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I got to ask you about training.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: So do you you self coach yourself?
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Is that correct?
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I do yeah.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: Like what is your like?
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: What are your blocks look like?
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Do you, are you like a three workout a week kind of person to work out a week?
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Like what?
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: What?
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Obviously, a lot of that's very specific and it depends on like what you're getting ready for.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: But like what on average?
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: Like what do what does your training look like?
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it totally depends on the week.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: I think I don't do well doing like three workouts a week but I think I can handle like a double threshold, which I will do sometimes and then like um as I get farther into the season.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: It depends on what I'm training for.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: But with golden trail series, stuff like the long runs are really important.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: So doing a workout within the long run Um, if I do add in a third workout um, it's usually just like hill strides or something like that, where it's like 32nd quick strides.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: That doesn't even really feel like a hard workout, it's just like something faster for the legs Um.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: So in a really hard week of training maybe I would do something like that Um.
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: There's also other times where I feel like you can recover faster from doing some like hard uphill efforts, just because it's not as much pounding on your legs.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: So there are some weeks where maybe if I were doing a third workout um, but don't want to feel the effects of a lot of pounding, I would do like an uphill um, like hard run um in the week.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Super cool.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: I love training theory, Like it's always fun, especially to talk to a coach, and like cause I'm just kind of self-coaching myself now and like I always I have a couple buddies that are coaches and I always like bump, like, bounce things off them.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: I'm like, is this too much, is this too crazy, should I not?
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: And I like it's funny.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize, like how much you can use like chat GPT to like help you build blocks, and it in like obviously some, some tweaks you need to throw in there.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: I was kind of amazed.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh my God, you can really like do a lot with this.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally yeah.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: I think you need to know a little bit about yourself and about running, but then you can use chat GPT and it can help a lot for sure.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah All right.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: So I want to pivot from training and I want to get into social media.
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: I think you're a really interesting person because you're like, obviously, honestly, I think it's like you and Grayson Like there's not many people that are able to compete at a very high level and then also be very popular on social media and be really good at conveying your story and talk about, like your workouts and things like that.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Maybe talk about, maybe add some color to that and commentary on how you're able to balance both of those.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: Cause, like I know us as athletes, like one of the things, like I know athletes sometimes like poo poo on influencers and influencers kind of poo poo on athletes, but it doesn't have to be that way.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: I think that this is really interesting, where you're able to kind of tell your story but also compete at a very high level.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Thanks, yeah, I I try to be like genuine on social media because, um, and hopefully I am, but I love like giving people advice or like answering questions that people have and, um, like hopefully helping people with their own training or just like inspiring people.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: I think when I first got into running professionally, I felt like it's, it was like a really selfish like sport, because you're just like running to try to be faster yourself, which is not a bad thing, like I don't think that other pro runners are selfish just because they're running, but I felt selfish myself and I was like what do I want to do?
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: to like help other people or to like feel like I'm giving back in some way, and so coaching was one thing, but then also, I think, over social media, it's another thing.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: To just like be somebody that can be inspiring and tell someone, no, like you could do this.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: You don't have to like give up and like not chase after your dreams and goals after college or after high school, like you can be an adult and still like chasing after big things, because I think a lot of times people don't do that.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: So, um, I think I decided, like early on in my pro career that I wanted to use whatever platform I had to like encourage, inspire and empower people to be able to do to reach their goals and their dreams.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think that's like kind of why I got into it and why I like posting on social media, because hopefully I can do that.
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: And then the other part for me is, I think, like it is just the reality that to be a pro runner, having a platform, does help your chances with getting contracts and, like your sponsors, like seeing you posting on social media and that's like good for them too, um, and so I hope that I can bring value to my sponsors by that as well.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: No, I like that.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: I think it's really beautifully said and like perfectly perfectly said in a lot of ways Like I just like really appreciate like the fact like you'll talk about like your workouts Like I can remember I follow you, obviously and like you'll talk about some of the like the treadmill workouts that you did in the off season and stuff like that, and I just thought it was very personal because it's like all right, like this day I happened to happen to jump on a treadmill and you're doing like I forget I can't remember what you were doing specifically, but like I don't know, it's just very inspiring stuff that I think a lot of people can like really relate to.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: Thanks, yeah, I appreciate that.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let's talk contracts and like sponsors.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Like you've been with Merrill for a decent amount of time now, I think it's really cool to see Maybe talk about that a little bit, like how did, how did that relationship come to be for you and how?
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: You fostered it over the years.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been great.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: I love being with Merrill.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: I've been with him almost since I got on the trails.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: I think I started talking with them right after I won the half marathon championships Um, so that was my second trail race and, um, I ended up asking, like reaching out to my agent right now, josh Cox, and asking if he would represent me, and so that's kind of how I got my foot in the door and then he helped me talk with other companies and stuff.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: So I think the biggest thing, one of the biggest things I've learned about running professionally if you want to run professionally is don't be afraid to ask people things, because the worst they can say is no.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: And it's really easy to like go and look up who the athlete representatives are for companies, like, if you have a LinkedIn, you can like go and look up who you need to talk to, or like go to like different running conventions and things like that and like kind of get your foot in the door and just like meet people.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, the worst thing that people can say is no.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: And that's why I reached out to Ryan Hall to ask for coaching.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: He could have said no, but he didn't, so I moved out to Flagstaff.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Josh, my agent now, could have said no, but he didn't.
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: Meryl could have said no, but they didn't.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: So I think just like asking people, um, and not being afraid to like put your foot in the door is really important if you're trying to run pro or do anything in life really.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I honestly, like you said, it's a metaphor for life.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: Like, if you hold yourself back and don't believe you're worthy, or don't believe this or that, then you'll never know if you don't pursue it Right.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: Like there's so many athletes that reach out to me and so many people like that listen to this podcast there, that are either on the precipice of being pro or have the ability to, and I see so many people that don't pursue it because, for one reason or another on that topic, though, you work with an agent.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: I, I, I got to ask you like how much has that helped and like benefited for Cause I feel like the agent is such an important thing in our sport now at the high level for being able to facilitate those conversations Can you maybe talk about like how much that has helped you with your career.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he's helped a ton, especially with like the bigger contracts and stuff.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: Um, I have a couple of like smaller things that um, like he's really great.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: He's like if you find it on your own, then you don't need to like pay me that percentage, but if I'm helping you out with it, then like he wants the cup, which totally makes sense to me, and I honestly think that like, uh, having him he gets me, even though I'm paying him for it, I'm earning more than I would without him.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think that he's been awesome and really really helpful for me and it kind of like takes off the pressure of me and like this weird like relationship that I could have with sponsors, where it's like on one end I'm like fighting for myself and I'm kind of like mean, not mean, but I think when you're negotiating contracts you have to be like really harsh and stuff and then when you're an athlete, you want to like show them that you're relatable to people and like friends and things like that.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: so it kind of takes off this pressure for me to be like really harsh with my um sponsors and just like gives me the opportunity to build a really great relationship with them, and Josh can be the one that is like really fighting for me and like has my back.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: So I think it makes my relationship with my sponsors even better too.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: I think it's a really smart way to go through it with the middlemen, and the reason I'll say that is just because I think, also for you, you also, an agent, knows your worth.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll be able to communicate that to the sponsor.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, and maybe this is too much inside baseball, this is just out of curiosity, because obviously I don't have an agent.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: But, you don't have to.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: You can answer this in any way, which way you want.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: I'm just curious about the process.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: Are you have like?
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: Are you involved with like?
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Is the agent 100% doing the contract negotiations?
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: Obviously, they'll come to you, they'll say a number or whatever.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: The stipulations are this, that and the other.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: But do you have to talk with the brand at all in that situation?
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: Or is that 100% just on the agent to like handle that?
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so when I got my contract with Merrill, I reached out to Josh and he was like I'll reach out to a bunch of companies.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: And then he kind of landed with Merrill and then once they were like farther in the process, where they kind of like talked a little bit about numbers, they were like okay, we want to have a meeting with you.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: So then I met with them and just kind of like solidified their relationship.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: And then this past year we renegotiated the contract and it was like me and Josh in the meeting with everybody on the Merrill team talking through it together.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's been different at different points, but yeah, I think having him there has been really, really helpful and, like you said, he knows your worth.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Because this is something that I hate about running contracts and don't think that it should be a thing, but I hate the NDAs within the contract where you like can't talk about numbers at all because I think it's just like really holding the sport back, but every contract has it in it.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: So, um, having an agent is helpful, because the agent knows what their other athletes are making.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: Um, so, like you said, they know your worth, but you might not be able to discuss that with other athletes.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: I think it's important, I see, and I think it's just such an important thing and I hope we get more agents in the sport, and the reason I think there's definitely a place for them and the reason is is because I talked to so many athletes and I see so many people trying to, including myself negotiating on my own behalf with a brand right.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: Whereas and you have an idea because you speak to other athletes of like what numbers you should be asking for, but the end of the day, like you're probably selling yourself short in a lot of ways, the more I think, especially and also now as a podcast host and dealing like on that end as a creator and having having idea of the way budgets work, and then seeing it as an athlete, you see kind of two different worlds and you start to put the numbers together.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: You're like, ah, yeah, okay, you should usually be asking for more.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's an interesting thing, and I think an agent it's more professional too, to kind of bridge that gap Because most, if not any in all professional sports, that's how it works, like there is a middleman to get those things done.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you for being candid.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of like I don't know.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: I just think there's a space for it and we probably need more agents in the sport moving forward.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I kind of agree, and I think we're in a weird place in the sport too, where somebody wants to get a contractor like become pro, and they're like at that level they don't really know how to move forward because there's not like a way that things are done and a lot of them then will just like try to do it on their own, Um, and I don't know if there's like enough agents right now to like help represent everyone either.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: you know, Um.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think we're at like a weird place on this work, but I hope that it becomes kind of more.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: Where have agents that are representing people?
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Because right now I think it's a lot of elite runners that are hoping to go pro, asking pro runners for the contacts of their sponsors, and then I think it just creates this really weird relationship dynamic there.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: Dude do's like.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Do you know how many people have reached out to me asking for, like Sportiva contacts?
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: And like you're my friend so I want to help you.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: But at the same time.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: I feel bad because I don't want my Sportiva contact getting 6,000 emails from all these runners that should probably be sponsored for sure.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: But it puts me in a weird position.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly how I felt probably for the past like two or so years, because I think more people have like reached out and asked me like hey, can I have your marital contact, and things like that.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: And I kind of have to like draw boundaries around that because I don't want them getting emailed like 6000 times.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, that person is a really good runner, but it's also sometimes just somebody that I've like competed against and, um, like I know them as like a competitor, but I don't know them as a person, and so I don't want to be like vouching for somebody that I don't really know their personality and then telling my sponsor like we should get this person, when I don't really know anything about them.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: Um, so I don't know, it's hard.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: But then I also don't want to be like gatekeeping or be like okay, like you can't have a contract because I'm better than you, cause that's genuinely like not what I think.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: I just think it puts me in a really awkward position with my sponsors and competitors.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I don't know.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: I hope that we can figure that out, but I think agents would solve that a lot.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: A hundred percent.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: I feel you on that.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a massive.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's interesting, it's a weird position to be in.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: All right, let's, let's change the subject a little bit.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: I want to get to um 2025.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: So we've got big plans Soon to be right around the corner.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: Broken arrows right around the corner.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: Broken arrows right around the corner.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: I'm curious outside of that, like what do you have planned on your schedule?
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: yeah, a lot mostly like golden trail series stuff.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go over to innsbruck and do the race in austria and then series and all is the next weekend and then, um, we'll see.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: Hopefully I can make the world team and then do that and the finals um in golden trail series.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: So, um, but we'll see, kind of, what the end of the season looks like and I think I'm going to have a clearer idea after sunopee.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: Um, and june will be busy too.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: I think right after broken arrow I'm going to do the race for golden trail series over in mexico.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: So a lot of the races I have on my schedule are kind of like the golden trail series races.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: But if I don't make worlds then maybe I would focus more on like world cup racing or something like that, because broken arrow and series and all are both in the world cup.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: So, um, I would have already a couple of races for that.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, we'll see.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: Super cool.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: I got to give broken arrow or sorry, I got to give the Golden Trail series their flowers because, like they're the one of the few like, if not the only series obviously the biggest and most competitive series, but like one of the few series that, like actually made a hole in their schedule for Worlds to happen.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: Because so many athletes are going to be racing there, so I think that's pretty cool.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you about Soonapy.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Obviously we'll do after this conversation.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: We'll do a short, like one-off conversation for soon to P.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: But mountain classic is your distance.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Obviously you've had such success there you gotta be super stoked to be going back to compete.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, what's the feel going into that?
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: Are you more excited for that or to race the ascent, like if you were to make both teams, would you do it?
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: Um, I don't know.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: I think I'm kind of like questioning if I should do the ascent at Broken Arrow right now, because I really that's a lot of racing If I did Senepe, the ascent, the 23k, and then the next week in Mexico is a 21 mile race and I might be cooked if I do all of them.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: But I do, I like.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: I say that I like the VK distance.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: Uh, they're always so hard, but I do like the VK distance and, um, like that race format.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: So, um, I'm pro, I'll probably end up doing it.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: But, um, yeah, uh, anyway, I'm excited for a son of P.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: I think I've raced that course before.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: So, um, I think the classic distance is my favorite, over between that and VK.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I'm, I'm excited for it.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: Well, the other thing too is like if, let's say, soon a P goes well, you're also in like a really unique position to be able to like cause.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: You've been so consistent, I've had so many top finishes and you're one of the biggest female names in the sport.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: Like application hurt you just throwing it out that way, you don't even have to deal with it.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: You know, like that would well I think that I'm pretty sure I'd have to go back and look, I think they're taking like the four from uh son of p and four from broken arrow and there's no um, like applications for classic or the vk.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: So if somebody got injured or dropped out, I think I could submit an application and I could be like a like alternate Um, but I think that they're only doing applications for long trail and short trail.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: Um, I'd have to go back and look.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: No, you're probably right.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: I got bad information from Tom Hooper.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: Shout out to Tom Hooper.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: Wait, but he's like.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: I think he's the guy I could have sworn he might know more than me and honestly, that might like take off some pressure, cause I I honestly am really nervous for a son of P.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: Like I hope that I make the world team, but it's not a guarantee and it never is like any year, but I think there are a lot of really strong women that could do really well and it's definitely not a guarantee to make it.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it's, it's interesting.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: It's going to be like, I mean, whatever team we send, I mean always we're sending deep teams Like our American contingent is crazy, so it's going to be super competitive.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: Let's dive dissect to that, just like I got to ask that, because, as much as I love the competitive component, I think the mental component of the sport is just as important.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: Like pressure, like what kind of pressure do you put on yourself going into these races?
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Like it's gotta be hard to produce and continue, I mean to be successful time in and time out.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: Like what, what does that like to you?
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think to me it's kind of just like I um have come to terms with like if I can do my best, I can be proud of that, no matter what happens in a race.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 2: And I feel like that is kind of the mindset that you have to have running professionally if you're going for teams, because you could have a great day out there or not a great day.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: But I feel like that's the mentality I need to have to keep this sport fun and to um keep myself motivated as well.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: And if I do my best, like that is really all that I could do for the day.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: So I kind of just approach each race with that mindset and know that I do my best, I can be proud of it.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: Did you know?
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you this because you had said in the past you'd worked with a sports psychologist.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: Obviously like racing as an all American, and racing on the track is significantly more intense than, say, trail, if you will, even though obviously there's there's serious stakes here.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: Did you get a lot of like different, like things to be able to cope and understand and build that mindset when you were working with sports psych?
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I did.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: I think he helped me a lot with the with visualization of racing and kind of getting into the right race mindset that I needed to get into.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: And I'll still go back and listen to some of those like visualization sessions because my sports psych recorded them for me so I can go back and like redo them all the time and they're more like track specific, but I feel like I can still use them for the trails now.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: So that's great and I've used them for years and years.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: So those that really helps me get in the mindset for races.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: So he helped me a ton with that.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: And then he just helped me also, um, with time management skills too, because I was in college and still trying to figure all of that out.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: So I feel like he kind of like showed me this is how you can like schedule your week and like you have time for everything that you need to do in the week, and so I think that has helped me even to today if I have a busy schedule I like that.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: I yeah I gotta be honest with you.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: Like I I recommend it to a lot of people.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: Like I think there's a lot of different like mechanisms, I don't know.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: I I've been dealing with this a lot lately like working on the, the mental aspect of it and understanding myself and like where I fit in in sport and like my relationship with it and it's just an interesting place to be is to use those, some of those skills to kind of reconcile it, which is, yeah, I got to ask you about competition, like how do you, are you extremely competitive person?
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: Like, how do you, how do you reconcile competition for yourself are?
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: you extremely competitive person.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: Like, how do you, how do you reconcile competition for yourself?
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm competitive, but, um, I try not to let that get in the way of like relationships with people.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: So, um, I think, like some of my best friends are people that I compete with and if they be me on the day, I'm not going to like be mean to them.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know, like me and Courtney were just out in China and, uh, she's one of my best friends, she got ninth in to them.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know, like me and Courtney were just out in China and she's one of my best friends, she got ninth in the race.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: I was 10th, I we were like having dinner together after and I'm like super stoked that she had an awesome race.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I think that there's a balance there and, like, of course, I want to to like beat people, but I I want them to have their best day and I just want to be better than their best day.
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: If that makes sense.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think yeah.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: That's the way to go into races for me, especially when you're racing against friends.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: Well, I think the thing, too is like it's a friend and you're sharing this experience, right.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: You're like totally smashing yourself and it's like if that person was the better person on the day, well, that person was the better person and like that's fine, like that I still did everything I could have done to put myself in the best position, right?
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's totally yeah.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: and that goes back to me, and my mindset was just saying, hey, I want to do the best on that day that I can, and I can be proud of that, no matter what the result is.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: If I did my best, then that's all I could give for the day.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: For sure, for sure.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: All right, so we're starting to wind down.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: Now I do have like one big question before we get into like ending questions for you.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: Um, I can ask you, cause you've done so much in the sport in the last like four to five years, like what, what did goals look like for you?
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: Is, do you just look at things from like an individual race to race, or like do you start to think about like long-term goals, like how do you visualize that for the sport and for your career?
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think at the beginning of the year I always kind of have like an overarching or like I'll plan my goals out for the year and it's like, okay, maybe I have two or three really big goals, um, and I like to set some A goals if everything goes really well, a B goal if it's like, yeah, I progressed and still had a good season, and then like a C goal where it's like, yeah, that was like a little bit of progression, but maybe not as much as I wanted to.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: So I think having tiered goals like that helps me be able to celebrate anything that happens in the season, whether I have an amazing season or I just make like a little bit of progress.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: So that's really helpful.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: But yeah, usually at the start of the season I create goals for myself for that season.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: And yeah, just like, look at all the races and kind of like what where I want to focus for the season?
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: Because there's so many different races you could do like golden trail series, worlds, world cup, you could focus on Cirque series, like there's a lot of different things you can do in the trails.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: Super true.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: Do you like, when it's all said and done, like when you're you finish the career, whatever that might be like?
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: What is that?
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: Is there any like winning series and all?
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: Is there any like such stretch, like one thing you really really like I have to do or I want to do, like?
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: Is it like deep inside of your psyche that you want to like, do or?
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: I think I try to hold running very loosely because I don't know what's gonna happen from year to year and I think I'm proud of what I've done just because I've done the best that I can with the talent that I have.
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: I think, or I like to think, that.
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: So I think I try to hold it loosely where it's like if this season were my last season, I would still be proud and like happy of all my accomplishments and I'll just take it like season by season, because I don't know what will happen.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: But I'm grateful for what I've been able to do.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: It's such a positive mindset.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: Oh thanks, all right, so one, uh, well, one more question I had to get to.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: sorry, I can't, I don't go for it.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, uh, so your faith is very important to you.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: And I love that.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: I love people that like are outspoken about the things that really are important to them, and faith is one of them.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: Can you talk about like, how faith has helped like shape you and your kind of your running journey with you?
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: Totally Well.
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's like my whole mindset, with just like, do the best that you can, because I think that, like um, running is a gift that God has given me and a talent that he's given me, and that's like for me an act of worship to be able to like say God created me this way and now I'm going to use that talent to the best of my ability.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: so if I do the best that I can on that day.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: That's like worship to him, um, and then I think like especially being in the trails, it's been so fun to just be out in nature and in everything that he's created.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: Um, I think that's made my faith even stronger and made me notice things about God that I didn't realize before.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: Um, and yeah, it's just like so cool to be out in what he's created, so I love that about the trails too.
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: Super cool, super cool.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: All right, so I got.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: We're getting into some ending questions now.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: All right, so I got.
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: We're getting into some ending questions now.
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: I'm curious to see who inspires you.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, that's a good question.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: I think the people that inspire me are like the people that I think are, um, like mentors in my life, um, or people that I'm really close with.
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: Like, I think my parents really inspire me and, um, I'm super thankful for them.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: My granddad Poppy really inspires me.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, he's a great man and they've all taught me such big like moral values, I think, through my life, and they're always there for me, no matter what.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: So I think, just um, yeah, how they live their life inspires me.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: And then, um, my husband, too, inspires me.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: Drew he, uh, we met when I was in Virginia, coaching and still kind of running professionally, um, or I guess, training Uh, I didn't have a contract at that point, but training and then wanting to maybe transition to trails, and I honestly don't know if I would have kept like running, if I probably would have run for fun, but I don't know if I would have been as competitive if he hadn't encouraged me to keep doing it and said, like you could do this and like I believe in you, and things like that.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: So I think he's somebody that really inspires me to be my best, and he is going after some really big goals him for himself and really loves just pushing his limits, and I think that's something that we both enjoy, and so it's really fun to just like be pushing our limits together.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: Super cool.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: Shout out, drew, I like that yeah.
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you about music.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: Are you um, all right, all right.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: First off, like do you listen to music at all in training?
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do yeah, okay, like workouts or like.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: How does that?
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: How do you?
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: um workouts, I really uh, the most like boring runs for me are just like the flat easy runs um that I do around Williams.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: There's like not many places to run here and I keep getting bitten by dogs on the fire roads so I'm scared to run out on fire roads now.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's happened like three times, so I'm just like I'll just stay on the roads in town.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: So I have the routes that I do, but they're not super fun, so I just put in music or something while I'm running.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: What's your walkout song?
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: What's a like a pre-race hype song you're listening to?
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: oh, um, I don't know, it depends on my mood.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: I like arctic monkeys a lot, so I'll listen to them.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: Um, I don't know if there's like one particular song that I like have to listen to, but I kind of listen to the more like alternative ish music.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: I think for races.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: I don't love being like super, super hype like right before a race, because I think that I am nervous enough.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: So sometimes I need something to like calm me down a little bit more.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: So sometimes it's more like chill or like calming music.
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: And then I think for workouts, sometimes it's more like upbeat music.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think there's a range, but a lot of like alternative kind of stuff.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: I like it.
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting because, like I, listen to music during workouts.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: Usually Like maybe I'll throw on a podcast on like one of those easy flat days of like if I just need to zone out and just get it over with.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: But it's funny like not a lot of people listen to music and I'm like what are you?
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: just are you just in your head the whole time, like what do you do?
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: Um, I'm totally zoned out.
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: What was the question I was going to ask you?
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: Um, not music.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: It was, um, oh okay, this is a new one I've been throwing in there.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, who is your favorite runner?
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, my favorite runner Um.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I always did look up to Ryan Hall and Sarah Hall growing up.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: So I think I have a lot of respect for them and just like it's really cool to see Sarah running, like later in her pro career too, and like breaking a lot of masters records right now and also just seeing her have so much joy and love for the sport.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: So I think I've also are always seen them as kind of like mentor figures because they're just like or always seen them as kind of like mentor figures because they're just like a little bit older than me, and so it's like fun to follow them and just like be inspired by what they're doing.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: Super cool, super cool.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 1: Last one is a um.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: I usually ask a goofy question.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like Bigfoot, ai, aliens, something, something crazy.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: Do you?
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: Do you believe in Bigfoot?
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: Do you believe in Bigfoot?
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: Do you believe in Bigfoot?
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: And if you saw Bigfoot, would you tell anyone?
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: Um, I don't know if I believe in like the actual Bigfoot that's out there, but I feel like something had to have happened to like create all these stories that people have of seeing him.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 2: So I definitely think that there's stuff out there, but I don't know.
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: I feel like when I'm running, I create all these like scenarios of things that could happen to me and my mind, which is probably not great, like I'm in the trail, so like anything could happen, but maybe it makes me like more prepared.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 1: So I don't know.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 2: I feel like just being out in nature alone is like can be scary sometimes.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: So I don't know.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: I feel like just being out in um nature alone is like can be scary sometimes.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: So it would make sense that if you like hear something or see something, you could like make up something in your mind.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: So I don't know if I believe in Bigfoot, but something had to have happened to like make people think that he's out there.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: He's running around, some giant hairy guy running around the woods, I don't know what.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: Uh, if you, if you, if let's say you see him, let's say he's out there would you tell anyone?
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, I probably would.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I think I would tell somebody.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: I feel like I would, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel like that's pretty significant.
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: I would tell, yeah, yeah, I feel like that's pretty significant.
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: I would tell, like I've told people other things that I've seen on runs, so yeah, why not?
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: tell them about Bigfoot.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: I like that, all right.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll stop it on that one.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: Rachel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: Such a great conversation.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it and thank you for letting me help tell your story.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, I hope that I'm wishing you the best of luck in your 2025 season.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, I hope that I'm wishing you the best of luck in your 2025 season.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 2: And uh, yeah, I hope this is the first of many conversations down the line.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been super fun having or being on.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: Super cool, thank you.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: What'd you guys think?
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: Oh man, what a fun episode.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: I really want to thank Rachel so much for coming on the podcast.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: This was an amazing conversation and, yeah, really looking forward to what is going to happen in her 2025 season as she looks to make another world's team.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: We did have her for an interview as well for the Soonapy Scramble pre-race, so that's going to be coming out in the next couple of weeks, so you'll get to hear kind of her game plan and just some preparation that we didn't mention in this podcast for the Soonapy Scramble, which is going to be bananas, and we'll probably do another one for Broken Arrow as well.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: So many races.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: Racing season is here.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: Guys, the best way you can support Rachel is if you give her a follow on Instagram.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: You can follow her.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: Follow her at Rachel runs world.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: That's Rach R-A-C-H runs R-U-N-S world, not Rachel runs world.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's Rach runs world.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's like one of the best, I think, on the as far as like being a pro athlete and then being like big on the Instagram scene, like she's super candid with like posting a lot of her like she'll talk about workouts.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: She'll talk about, you know, a lot of the races.
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: She just talks about what she's up to and like her training and stuff like that.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: So I really appreciate that and I think it's uh, it's just a like, a really cool thing, um, to be able to do both in our sport and, yeah, she does a great job at both.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: So, like I said, I hope you guys enjoy this one.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: The best way you can support Rachel is to give her a follow on Instagram.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: If you guys enjoyed this episode.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: Please give us a five-star rating and review.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts, whether it be Apple, spotify or YouTube.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: And, very last but not least, we want to thank our sponsor, and Ultimate Direction.
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: Ud is kind enough to support, uh, support this podcast and uh, yeah, you can support ultimate direction by checking out the products and ultimate directioncom If you're interested.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: Uh, they did just release their new race vest, six liter, and ultra vest, 12 liter, and if you want to pick one of those up, use code steep stuff pod for 25% off your cart.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: Um, and that's going to get you, uh, 25% off one of the best new packs that is on the scene right now.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: So guys really appreciate it.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: Have a great weekend.
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 1: Enjoy your long runs, enjoy your, your, your travels, enjoy what you got going on and training, and I'll be with you guys next week.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: Thanks again, thank you.