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I Went Through Jeffrey Dahmer_s Confession_Here_s What I Found · Luke's English Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: I got into true crime early. I remember reading beat
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: up paperbacks about murder on the bus to high school.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: It was nineteen ninety two when I became fascinated with
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: the trial of a Milwaukee man named Jeffrey Dahmer.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Dahmer has confessed to the murders of seventeen men, most
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: securing in his downtown Milwaukee apartment.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I wrote a letter to the Milwaukee Police Department true story,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and I asked them for all the case files. In
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: my letter, I said I was a college student hoping
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: to write a paper on the case. This was before
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: the Internet. I had no idea. I thought they might
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: actually respond, but they did. I still remember the call.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: An officer from the Milwaukee Police phoned the landline at
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: my parents' house and asked if I wanted the full,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: unredacted confession ten dollar for shipping.
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: I still have it.
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: I did what I did not for reasons of hate.
• 1:05
  Speaker 4: I hated no one. I knew I was sick or
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: evil or both.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to dissect that question and
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: look at the case through Dahmer's own statements. Because when
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: you confront the darkest stories directly, they often reveal the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: clearest truths. I'm James Buddy Day. This is unmarked. I
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: still remember getting the package.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: This was before foyer requests were commonplace.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: It was hundreds of printed pages. I put them in
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: a binder, read them, annotated them, poured over them. Throughout
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: this episode, I'll be referencing this file and I want
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: to put it in context. On Monday, July twenty second,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, Milwaukee police were flagged down by a
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: young man named Tracy Edwards. He was panic stricken with
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a handcuff hanging from one wrist. Edwards led officers to
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: an apartment on the edge of downtown. He told them
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: that the man inside had threatened him with a knife.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: What happened next has been sensationalized in books, films, and documentaries,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: so instead I want to read the actual police account
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: from that day quote. They observed various photographs in the
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: apartment depicting dismembered bodies. When they opened the refrigerator, the
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: officers observed the dismembered head of a human being inside.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: The suspect was subsequently placed under arrest and admitted to
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: this offense. The suspect was Jeffrey Dahmer. He surrendered without
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: incident and immediately gave a detail confession. To help paint
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the picture, I want to refer to an opening page
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: where officers describe the interview itself. They write, quote, Jeffrey
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Dahmer was given numerous cigarettes, four or five cups of coffee,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: two glasses of water, two cans of Coca Cola soda pop.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: The officers note that the interview lasted approximately six hours.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: What's truly unique about these documents is not just what
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Dahmer says, it's what he doesn't say. Decades later, we
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: know what he omits, what he claims not to remember,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: what he lies about, and that's where the real story begins.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: You have to put yourself back in nineteen ninety one.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Milwaukee is a working class city in transition, manufacturing jobs
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: or disappear. Crime is rising across many American cities, and
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: police are busy dealing with drugs and violence in struggling neighborhoods.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: When Jeffrey Dahmer is arrested, he is completely unknown to
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: the officers that are interviewing him, so they.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Start with the basics.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: They write, quote, mister Dahmer states he is thirty one
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: years of age born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: He states he.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Moved to Richfield, Ohio when he was about six years
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: old and was raised there. Now, this entire interview, it's
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: written this way, cold and analytical. It's the voice of
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: an officer taking notes, methodically documenting what Dahmer says, even
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: as the conversation begins to move toward crimes that are
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: almost impossible to comprehend.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like he woke up one morning said this
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: what I'm going to do. It was a long process
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: he went through for years.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: That's the voice of doctor Eric Hickey, a renowned forensic
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: psychologists specializing in serial murder, sexual predators, and victimology.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: He's a professor at.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: Walden University and a former consultant to the FBI. Doctor
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: Hickey has spent years studying the Dahmer case, even meeting
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: with Dahmer's family in an effort to understand how someone
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: like Jeffrey Dahmer develops. He seems to have the hallmarks
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: of psychopathy. He's in credit, you know, as an adult,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: he's self centered, grandiose, callous, He sees other people as objects.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: So I'm curious, like where that came from. Why did
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: he feel so isolated and so different as a child.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Well, yes, I think he inherited some of that. I
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: think you know. Of course genetics and course biology they
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: play roles in hey so helping us at the stage.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Throughout Dahmer's childhood, his mother struggles with significant mental health issues.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: During pregnancy, she suffers from prolonged nausea, anxiety, and has
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: prescribed tranquilizers. In his confession, Dahmer tells authorities that his
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: mother quote became depressed after his birth and never quite
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: fully recovered.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of argument, a lot of fighting in fighting,
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: and of course his mom had mental she has some
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: mental health issues.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Dahmer's own description of his childhood is revealing. In the
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: confession officer's note quote, he remembers his early life being
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: one of extreme tension and that his parents were quote
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: constantly at each other's throats. Reading the confession, it occurs
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: to me that while the description is supported by the record,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: it's only part of the story. When Damer omits, or
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: perhaps doesn't fully appreciate, are the early warning signs that
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: appear in his childhood. Clinical records suggests that dom showed
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: signs of neurological dysfunction at a very young age. At
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: four or five years old, Jeffrey appears uninterested in engaging
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: with the social world around him. He's withdrawn, introverted. In
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: a study I came across titled the Case of Jeffrey Dahmer,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: Sexual serial Homicide from a Neuropsychiatric Developmental Perspective, researchers examine
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: the possibility that Dahmer suffered from a developmental disorder on
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the autism spectrum, most likely consistent with some form of
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Asperger's disorder. It's a fascinating paper, and I'll post it
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: in our research portal unmarked case files, so you can
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: look at the evidence for yourself. But what that study
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: highlights is a pattern that appears again and again in
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: serial offenders. Perceive childhood trauma combined with neurological vulnerability.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: Wanted to feel normal, and he had really had a
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: hard time doing that.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Dahma attends Revere High School and his social isolation deepens.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: He struggles to form attachments with others.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: He was a class clown high school. He wanted to
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: fit in, he didn't fit in very well. He was
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: never comfortable in his own skin.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: What emerges from the record is simply not a troubled childhood,
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: but a boy who is struggling to connect with the
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: world around him. He can imitate normal teenage behavior, but
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: genuine connection is just out of reach. To cope, he
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: begins drinking, not only for worsening depression, but also to
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: suppress his developing sexuality, which he feels further isolates him.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Jeffrey was he was gay. He never expressed that to
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: people because back in those days it wasn't cool at
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: all and was wo and he wanted to fit in.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: By nineteen seventy eight, as Dahmer approaches graduation, his struggles
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: are becoming impossible to ignore. He's frequently drunk at school,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: his grades are poor, his parents' marriage is collapsing. Yet
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: in reading the confession, when Dahmer later speaks with investigators,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: he rarely addresses these issues directly. Instead, he focuses almost
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: entirely on the turmoil between his parents, as if the
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: chaos around him somehow explains the chaos within him.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: As high school senior prom he actually went to the
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: problem with a girl. It didn't go well.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: In the psychology of violent offenders, chronic social isolation is
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: often where fantasy life begins to expand and harden.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: In the fantasies. Absolutely, the fantasies, that's the part that
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: most people don't investigate.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Dahmer will later recall a fascination with bones and with
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: the dead, something his parents dismiss as quote inoffensive passing
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: fascinations of childhood. But in the Dahmer case, it's something
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: much more. In the beginning, it isn't simply a fascination
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: with death. The fantasies grow out of something else, entirely,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: a longing for intimacy.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: With someone Like Dahmer. He was so uncomfortable that he
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: was more comfortable developing his intimacy with somebody who was dead.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: For most people, intimacy requires vulnerability. You have to risk rejection,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: You have to allow another person to have their own thoughts,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: their own desires. For Dahmer, that unpredictability was unbearable. A
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: dead body removes that risk entirely.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Dahmer was always fascinated by had been dead or been buried,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and even before he was with dead people, he he yeah,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: the fascination was like tapophilia.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: The word tapophilia refers to a deep fascination or recurring
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: interest in cemeteries, funerals, and the rituals surrounding death. For Dahmer,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: though it isn't about the ceremony.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: He would look in newspapers and find young men who
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: had died in car rec since were illnesses. Then you
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: go to the viewings of the bodies. Then he would
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: go to the funerals, and then you go to the cemeteries.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: For Dahmer, these rituals become something else, entirely, a way
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: to be close to someone even in death, satisfying a
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: craving for the intimacy he cannot seem to achieve in life.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: And that gave him some release, some relief for his
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: need to be with somebody. And you did that for
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: quite a while.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: For Dahmer, the tipping point comes in nineteen seventy eight,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: when he's essentially abandoned by his parents.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: Up to this.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: Point in his life, isolation has been a defining theme.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Now that isolation becomes literal, this moment has been examined
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: from a number of angles over the years, but Dahmer
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: provides his own version in the confession I'll Read It.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: To You quote.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: He states that when he was approximately eighteen years old
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: is when a divorce occurred between his mother and his father,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: and at this time his mother moved to Chippawa Falls, Wisconsin,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: and his father had been court ordered to stay out
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: of the house and had moved into a motel.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: I think it was seventeen. When he came home one day,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: his mom was gone. She left, just left him.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Now, by most accounts, there was some sort of miscommunication
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: between Dahmer's mother and father. Each believed the other was
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: looking out for him. Regardless, the result is the same.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Weeks after graduating from high school, Jeffrey Dahmer finds himself
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: alone in the house, no parents, no supervision, no structure.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: In the confession, Dahmer describes something that begins to take
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: hold during this period. He talks about feeling quote strong
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: desires of not wanting people to leave him, and he says,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: quote he began to hate sleeping alone at night, is very.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Secure around people. He was he was so fearful of rejection,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: and I think three weeks later killed us for his victim.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: This is where the fantasy crosses a line. On June eighteenth,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, Jeffrey Dahmer picks up a hitchhiker close
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: to his own age, nineteen year old Stephen Hicks. The
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: remains of Stephen Hicks have never been recovered. The murder
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: was only revealed when Dahmer confessed to it more than
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: a decade later, meaning there is minimal physical evidence. Everything
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: we know about what happened that night comes from Dahmer's
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: own statements, which shifted somewhat over time. In the confession,
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: police document that quote he took him home, had homosexual
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: sex with him, and they were drinking beer and became intoxicated.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Dahmer goes on to tell investigators quote he states they
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: got into a physical fight because the nineteen year old
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: tried to leave, and that during the fight, he states
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: he struck the hitchhiker in the head with a barbelle.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: For Dahmer, this isn't about anger or cruelty in a
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: conventional sense. What Jeffrey Dahmer is discous is something far darker,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: that if someone is dead, they cannot abandon him. The
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: murder solves the very problem his fantasies have been circling
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: for years, and once that realization takes hold, the psychological
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: barrier to killing begins to disappear.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: The concept of being dead in other words, he won't
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: experience rejection from them.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: For Dahmer, specifically, it's not about the murder, it's not
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: about suffering. The anecdote he tells where he stole a
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: mannekin as a first attempt, and you know the stories
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: you're telling where he's attending funerals. He's trying to achieve
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: a completely submissive human.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: In the beginning, he just want to be with somebody.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Dahmer tells investigators that after killing Stephen Hicks, he dismembers
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: the body, places the remains in trash bags, and dumps
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: them in the woods. Two weeks later, he said, he
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: returns and breaks up the bones with a sledgehammer. But
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Dahmer was often dismissive when it came to discussing his victims,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: and he frequently misremembered or misrepresented the details. For example,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety one, when anthropologists examined the yard at
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Dahmer's home where the murder took place, they found evidence
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: suggesting Dahmer had stored the body in the crawl space
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: for some period of time and most likely brought it
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: back inside the house, and at trial, it was also
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: revealed that Dahmer attempted to dispose of the remains, wrapped
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: in garbage bags at a local dump. On the way there,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: he was pulled over by the police, with the bags
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: visible in the back seat of his car. Somehow, Dahmer
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: managed to talk his way out of the stop and
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: was released without incident. That tells us is that Dahmer's
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: memory of these crimes is unreliable, not just because time
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: has passed, but because his victims were never fully real
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: to him in the first place.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: A lot of offenders I've dealt with him, they're not
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: comfortable with like they're in cell types, so they're not
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: comfortable with being around people so much, and relationships they
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: don't feel them. They don't know how to do it,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: so then they will turn to other things.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Back in nineteen seventy eight, Dahmer's father pressures him to
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: enlist in the army. Jeffrey Dahmer is stationed in broad Hold, Germany,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: where records show that he trains as a field medic,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: but military service does little to stabilize him. He drinks heavily,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: and after nearly three years, he's discharged early and given
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: a plane ticket to anywhere in the United States. Dahmer
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: later tells police he can't bring himself to return home
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: and face his father. Instead, he goes to Miami Beach, Florida.
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: At this point, he's drifting.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: He spends much of his time in Florida at a hospital,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: and he's eventually asked to leave because of continual drinking.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: When he finally does return home, the pattern continues. Dahmer
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: drinks heavily and is soon arrested for drunk and disorderly
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: conduct later that same year. In an attempt to break
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: this cycle, Dahmer moves to Milwaukee in nineteen eighty one,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: living with his grandmother in a nondescript house on fifty
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: seventh Street. In his confession Investigator's Note quote, he states
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: that after he moved to Milwaukee in nineteen eighty one,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the fantasies of killing people begin to excite him and
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: became more frequent. Now that observation is interesting, but it's
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: a little reductive because something else is happening.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: During this period.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: For the first time in his life, Dahmer discovers Milwaukee's
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: gay scene, places where he can meet people like himself,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: where he experiences a level of acceptance he's never felt before.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: Bars like to nineteen Club, The Cage Nightclub, and the Phoenix.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: These become a nightly ritual. In his confession, it's noted
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: quote Dahmer states there have been many times where he's
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: had sex with men where no violence was involved. For Dahmer,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Milwaukee's gay bars give him something he has never experienced before,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: but they can't give him the thing he truly wants,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: someone who will never leave. On September fifteenth, nineteen eighty seven,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Dahmer is at the two nineteen club when he meets
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: twenty five year old Stephen Toomey, a short order cook
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: who had finished a shift earlier that evening. According to
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Dahmer's confession quote, he states, they got a room at
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: the Ambassador Hotel and they got very drunk and passed out.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: When he woke up, Stephen Toomey was dead. Dahmer will
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: later claim he has almost no memory of what happened,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: saying he blacked out. The details of the killing remain unclear.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: According to Dahmer, he leaves the body in the hotel
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: room and goes to a nearby mall where he buys
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: a large suitcase. He then hails a cab back to
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: the hotel, packs Toomey's body inside the suitcase and takes
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: another cab to his grandmother's house. There in the basement,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: he dismembers the body and disposes of the remains using
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: the household drain and trash bags. It's a chilling sequence,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: not only because of the violence involved, but because of
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: how quickly Dahmer shifts from shock to procedure, and that
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: tells us something important. By this point, Dahmer's fantasies are
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: no longer abstract when confronted with the reality of a corpse.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: He already knows what to do, but there's a detail
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: within the confession that stands.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: Out to me.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: In his initial statement to police, Dahmer places this incident
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty four, but investigators later determine the murder
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: occurred three years later, in nineteen eighty seven. The mistake
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: is revealing. Dahmer remembers the post mortem acts in disturbing detail,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: but the timeline drifts. The mechanics of the crime remain
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: clear while the context disappears. Psychologists often describe this as compartmentalization,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: the minds separating the act from the life it. But
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: despite Dahmer's dissociation. He learns something crucial from this murder.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: He was seen with Stephen Toomey. They left the bar together,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: they checked into the hotel together, and yet from Dahmer's perspective,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: no one ever comes looking. In reality, Toomey's father, Walter
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: does try to push police to investigate, but his concerns
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: are largely dismissed. There's no sustained investigation, and Dahmer draws
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: a conclusion from this. The men he meets in the
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: bars young, often transient, sometimes is strange from their families.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: They're vulnerable.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Their disappearances do not trigger the same urgency as others might.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: This again is doctor Eric Kickey.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: We went to bars and sat a men he thought
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: were kind of not connected to society very well.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: It's also important to remember the in the nineteen eighties,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Milwaukee police frequently rated gay bars, and complaints from gay
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: men are often treated with skepticism or indifference. For many
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: in the community, contact with police is something to avoid,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: not to seek out, and Dahmer he understands this. According
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: to Dahmer, on January sixteenth, nineteen eighty eight, he's again
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: at the two to nineteen club when he's approached by
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: James Doxetter, age fourteen, at about one am, and takes
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: him back to his grandmother's home. This is where Dahmer's
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: behavior escalates. He subdues his victim with a drink laced
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: with sleeping pills. Once the boy's unconscious, Dahmer reportedly strangles him.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: In his confession, Dahmer tells police quote, it was better
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: to have him dead than to have them leave. You
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: have to understand that Dahmer is not acting out on
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: sadism in a conventional sense. The act of murder itself
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: does not appear to give him gratification. His long simmering
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: fantasy of keeping people from leaving is manifesting itself in violence.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: And they told him he had to leave. He had
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: to leave, get back to work and whatever. That's when
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: he should in the beginning, that's when he knew he
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: had to kill them, and that's when he did.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Dahmer disposes of the remains in the same way as before,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: but something has changed. Dahmer is now fully inside the
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: fantasy world he's been building for years, one built around control.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: The men he's encountering are no longer individuals to him,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: but objects he can possess. You can see this even
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: in the confession itself, Dahmer is unable to refer to
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: his victims by name. Instead, he describes them as as quote,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: a white male or a Hispanic male. In fact, he
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: struggles to remember the names of any of the men
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: he's killed. Upon his arrest, He's unable to give the
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: police one single name, only demographic descriptions. Psychologically, that tells
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: us something very important.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Dahmer's emotional engagement was.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Not with the person, but with the act itself.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Remember talked about how pathetic his life was, what a
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: waste of time it was. Yeah, Dahmer could never identify
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: with the actual victims. He never talked about the victims.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: He just he couldn't connect to the victims. He wanted
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: could connect to the fact that he had lived a
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: terrible life. He was to had been better, a different life.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: The victim fades from memory, only the procedure remains, and
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: the pattern continues. And interestingly, Dahmer himself was aware of
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: this blind spot.
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: My attempt to help identify the remains was the best
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: that I could do, and that was hardly anything.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: That's Jeffrey Dahmer himself briefly addressing the court at his sentencing, hearing.
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: I tried to do the best I could after the
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: arrest to make amends, but no matter what I did,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: I could not undo the terrible harm I have caused.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, just three months after his most
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: recent murder, around March twenty fourth, Dahmer murders Richard Guerrero.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: Age twenty five.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: About a year later, almost to the day, he kills
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Anthony Sears, age twenty four. In both cases, Dahmer meets
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: the men in clubs the two nineteen Club or La Cage.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: He brings them back to his grandmother's house, and he
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: follows the same routine sleeping, pills, strangulation, dismemberment, and in
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: both cases there's no real investigation. Guerrero's sister reports his
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: disappearance to police, but she says she's not taken seriously.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Her family eventually hires a private investigator who defrauds them
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: of money, and the trail goes cold. Dahmer faces no consequences,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: no questions, nothing. In fact, contemporary coverage in the Milwaukee
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Sentinel reports that in September nineteen eighty eight, Dahmer is
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: arrested for drugging a thirteen year old boy at the
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Ambassador Hotel, circumstances that echo his previous murder. Dahmer even
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: pleads guilty to this crime. He receives five years probation
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: and a one year work release sentence, but instead of
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: stopping him, the conviction ends up enabling him. Soon after,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Dahmer moves into his own apartment for the first time
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: in his life. It's the same apartment investigators will enter
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: just three years later, the same apartment where Dahmer will
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: ultimately kill more than a dozen men. And during this time,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Dahmer is under supervision. He has a probation officer, he
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: attends court mandated therapy, he is in regular contact with authorities,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: and yet on May twenty ninth, nineteen ninety, Dahmer murders again.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: He picks up thirty three year old Raymond Lamont Smith,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: also known as Ricky Beeks. They meet outside a bookstore,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: and Dahmer brings him back to the apartment and kills
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: him using the same method. For the next year, Dahmer's
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: life becomes almost mechanical. He sleeps during the day, works
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: nights at a candy factory, then goes out looking for
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: a victim. In his confession, he describes this routine in
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: almost monotonous detail, over and over again. The investigators record
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: the same phrases, quote, he met a black mail he
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: met a Hispanic male, he met a Chinese male. The
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: identities blur together, the dates drift. He says it was
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: maybe in June or July.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: About one victim.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: The report simply notes, quote, they took a taxi back
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: to his apartment, and he repeated the same scenario. What
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: we know is that by the end of nineteen ninety
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Dahmer has killed nine people. His apartment is beginning to
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: fill with the smell of decay. Evidence is everywhere in
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: plain sight, and yet no one has discovered what is happening.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: And it's around this time a neighbor in Dahmer's building
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: is strangled. Police even question Dahmer. In the confession investigator's
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: note quote, Dahmer states when detectives came to his door,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: he was sure he was going to be apprehended for
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the numerous homicides. But that doesn't happen. The detectives notice
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: nothing unusual. The murder case goes cold, and while some
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: later speculate about Dahmer's possible involvement. He denies any connection
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: and is never charged, and that experience it only emboldens him.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: This seems to be such a common thing in these
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: men where they developed this reoccurring fantasy.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And Dahmer's fantasy, no doubt had increased in more from
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: other kind of very violent fantasies. But his need is
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: a strong need to be with someone drove him.
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: On February eighteenth, nineteen ninety one, Dahmer murders Curtis drell Stratter,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: age seventeen. On April seventh, he kills Eerl Lindsay nineteen.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: On May twenty fourth, Dahmer murders Tony Anthony Hughes, age
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: thirty one. And by this point Dahmer's fantasies have progressed
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: even further. He begins to keep partial remains. Do you
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: think he progressed into a psychotic state like I you know,
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: and I've heard a lot of interviews with him in
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: which he kind of refers to the later days he
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: and he says, you know, looking back, you know, it
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: was just so crazy, like you know, but at the
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: time it made sense. So do you think he did
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: his fantasy world just overtake him.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: When he arrived at that level. When he was doing
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: his nickers, feel like the act not just with the
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: body bars, but actually the people and taking pictures of them,
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: then he felt like he was surrounded by his friends.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: In the early morning hours of May twenty seventh, nineteen
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: ninety one, fourteen year old Conoract synthe some phone, the
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: younger brother of the boy Dahmer had molested in nineteen
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: eighty eight, is found wandering the street, naked, heavily drugged,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: and bleeding. Remarkably, Dahmer is completely unaware that his victims
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: are related, as he never has learned their names.
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: Neighbors see the victim and call.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Nine one one.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm all twents the state, and it's a young man.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: He is button neck, he is you're beaten up. He's
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: very bruised, he can't stand. He has no.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: Calls on and he was really hurt.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And I you know, I got no corner on him.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: I didn't drink him and he needs.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: When officers John Bolstrak and Joseph Gabriis arrive, Dahmer tells
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: them the victim is his nineteen year old boyfriend. He
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: says the two have been drinking and arguing despite obvious
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: signs that something is wrong. The officers return the boy
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: to Dahmer's apartment. Within hours, Dahmer murders him.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: This is Dahmer, once.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Again, talking about the incident during his sentencing hearing, yearsly, I.
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: Hurt those policemen in the counteract matter, and I shall
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: ever agret causing them to lose their jobs. And I
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: hope and pray that they can get their jobs back
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: because I know they did their best and I just
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: plain fooled them.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: What makes this moment so chilling is not only the
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: brutality of the crime, but how familiar the pattern has become.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: At this point, Dahmer has already been arrested for drugging
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: a boy. He's on probation. Police have spoken to him
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: before again and again and again. Authorities encounter Jeffrey Dahmer
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: and see only an awkward, intoxicated man, not the predator
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: he actually is.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: I know, I hurt my probation officer, who was really
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: trying to help.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Me back in nineteen ninety one. That night is no different.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Officers stand at the doorway of Jeffrey Dahmer's apartment, speak
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: with him, see a victim, and leave. On June thirtieth,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one, Dahmer attends the Chicago Pride Parade. At
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: a bus stop, he encounters twenty one year old Matt
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: Turner and persuades him to come back to Milwaukee for
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: a photo shoot inside Dahmer's apartment. It coincides with Dahmer
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: losing his job, giving him ample free time. In his confession,
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Dahmer later explains what was driving him during this period, quote,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: this is the reason the killings escalated because he was
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: alone at night and he did not want to be alone.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: On July fifth, he kills Jeremiah Benjamin Weinberger, twenty three,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: after meeting him at a gay bar in Chicago. On
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: July fifteenth, Oliver Joseph Lacy twenty four, is lured to
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Dahmer's apartment with the promise of money for photographs.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: Was an interest in the suffering. He just needed him
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: to be dead so he could be with the bodies.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: By this stage, Dahmer's fantasies have progressed even further into
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: the most infamous aspect of his crimes, cannibalism. In the confession,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Dahmer explains that eating parts of the victims is a
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: way of making them part of himself. Psychologically, it reflects
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: the same obsession that had driven his crimes.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: From the beginning.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Possession, Dahmer repeatedly describes an overwhelming fear of abandonment. If
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: someone could be absorbed into him, literally made a part
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: of him, then they could truly never leave.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: He wanted to feel powerful, and in fact, you said,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: he said, once I completed this, these people could never
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: There are my friends, and they can never leave me.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: They could never leave me.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Researchers who study extreme offenders sometimes describe this as a
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: form of incorporative fantasy, where the desire for intimacy becomes
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: fused with the desire for total control. In Dahmer's case,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: the act wasn't about survival or hunger. It was the
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: final expression of the same distorted logic that had been
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: developing for years. If he could not sustain a relationship
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: with another living person, he would create a permanent.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: Bond through possession.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: It's disturbing, but it follows the same psychological thread that
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: runs through Dahmer's entire confession. The need to eliminate rejection
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: eliminate independence and eliminate the possibility that someone could walk away.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Dahmer's final victim is twenty five year old Joseph Braidhoff.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Braidhoff is a father of three from Minnesota who has
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: come to Milwaukee looking for work. Many of Dahmer's victims,
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: he's passing through the city, not deeply.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: Rooted in the community.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: The two meet in a bar in downtown Milwaukee on
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: July nineteenth, nineteen ninety one. According to Dahmer's confession, the
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: encounter follows the now familiar pattern.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: The two drink together.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Dahmer persuades the victim to return to his apartment, because
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: by this point Dahmer's routine has become almost mechanical. Same apartment,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: same method, same attempt to preserve the body afterwards. The
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: fantasies that began years earlier have fully taken over his life.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: He's unemployed, unable to pay rent or sustain any semblance
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: of control. In fact, on the day of his arrest,
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: he's been evicted from his apartment.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: He was supposed to be moving out of his apartment.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Being evicted, he went out to find another victim rather
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: than moving. I think he just knew the Endless Coming.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: It's now July twenty second, nineteen ninety one, the day
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Tracy Edwards escapes from Dahmer's apartment with a handcuff still
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: attached to his wrist, triggering the investigation that finally exposes
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: what has been happening inside Dahmer's apartment.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: I think he was very happy to be caught.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: After his arrest, Dahmer confesses to the murders. The questions
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: a trial are never whether he committed these crimes. Dahmer
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: has already told investigators in disturbing detail what he'd done.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: The question is whether or not he's legally insane.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: It wasn't crazy under law, I mean, he knew exactly
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: what he was doing.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: The trial begins in January of nineteen ninety two in Milwaukee.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Prosecutors argue that Dahmer understood exactly what he was doing
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: and took careful steps to avoid being caught. The defense
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: argues that Dahmer's compulsions, these extreme paraphilias, had destroyed his
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: ability to control his own behavior. Over two weeks, jurors
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: listened to testimony from psychiatrists, police investigators, forensic experts. They
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: hear Dahmer's own statements from the confession, and they see
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: evidence taken from his apartment. In the end, the jury
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: rejects the insanity defense. Dahmers found guilty but saying on
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: fifteen counts of murder and sentenced to fifteen consecutive life
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: terms in prison, effectively ensuring he will never leave custody.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: Your honor it is over now.
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: This has never been a case of trying to get free.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: I didn't never want freedom. Frankly, I want a death
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: for myself.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: For many of the victims' families, the verdict brings a
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: measure of closure, but it can never fully answer the
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: questions that haunt the entire investigation. How someone like Jeffrey
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Dahmer had managed to kill for so long without being stopped.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: The answer is complicated.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: From childhood, Dahmer struggled to connect with the world around him.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Relationships were confusing, unpredictable, filled with the possibility of rejection.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Over time, fantasies he developed offered something reality could not.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: Certainty.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: In those fantasies, there was no abandonment, no judgment, No
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: one could walk away. For Dahmer, the murders were not
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: acts of rage. They were the final step in a
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: psychological process that developed for years, a distorted attempt to
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: solve a problem that had haunted him since childhood, the
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: fear of being alone.
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: If there are people out there with these disorders, maybe
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: they can get some help before they end up being
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: hurt or hurting someone.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: When I first wrote that letter to the Milwaukee Police
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: Department back in nineteen ninety too, I had no idea
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: what they would send me. But what emerges from those
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: pages is not a single moment of madness, but a
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: long psychological progression. Isolation giving a way to fantasy, Fantasy
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: giving a way to control, and control, eventually giving way
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: to murder. And more than thirty years later, those same pages,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: the ones Milwaukee Police Department mailed to a curious kid
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: for ten dollars in shipping, they're still sitting in a
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: binder in my office. Before we wrap up, a quick note.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: If you're the kind of person like me, and you're
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: just never happier than going to Kansas City and spending
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: the full day in cold case storage, and you just
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: want to get your hands on all this evidence yourself,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I will post it for you. I'll take Jeffrey Dahmer's confession,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: and I will post it inside Unmarked case Files. That's
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: our research portal, and you can spend your evening digging
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: through his words yourself.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: And on that.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Note, if you are as obsessed with the Manson murders
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: case at least as much as I am, my book,
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Charles Manson The Last Words has just been republished.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: It's on Amazon.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: I just got the test copy here and I'm pretty
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: happy with the formatting. There's a few things I want
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: to update, but by the time you hear this, it
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: will be live in the Amazon Store, both on kindle
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: and paperback. And I spend ten years interviewing the Manson
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: family and all my researches in this book, it's a
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: good read now. Unmarked takes a lot of work to produce.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Every episode comes out of weeks of research, going through documents, interviews,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: and we're starting to work with advertisers to help support
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: that work. But if you'd rather listen without ads and
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: get early access to all the episodes, you can join
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: us inside Unmarked case Files. And if you're already there,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: thank you, because that support that really is what keeps
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: this research going. Finally, if you want to hear more
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: from doctor Eric Kicky. You can find him on the
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: podcast Dark Matters, and it's available wherever you get your podcasts.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: This episode of Unmarked was produced by John Adoe and
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: edited by Dave Alderson. Our additional producer is Jesse Demiray.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Until next week, this is Unmarked