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Assertive Peacemaking with Kelsey Blahnik, LCSW-S · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gymickferson.
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Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
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Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
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Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
0:15
Speaker 1: Here we go, our folks, Welcome back to the podcast.
0:20
Speaker 1: Very excited to have as my guess today. Kelsey Blonnik Kelsey, Welcome, Thank.
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Speaker 2: You so much for having me.
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Speaker 1: I'm excited, awesome, awesome. Kelsey's a licensed clinical social worker
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Speaker 1: and qualified supervisor serving Texas and Florida, specializing in trauma, OCD, anxiety,
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Speaker 1: and caregiver burnout. She offers online therapy and supervision through
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Speaker 1: her practice, The and Way Therapy, where she uses emdr ifs, ERP,
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Speaker 1: and ACT alongside holistic focus on nervous regulation and well being.
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Speaker 1: She's the author of the book titled The End Way
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Speaker 1: Assertive Peacemaking, Peacemaking in a divided World and Men towards
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Speaker 1: Clinicians to build values, aligned practices grounded in clarity and compassion.
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Speaker 1: All right, Kelsey, obviously just a little bit about you.
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Speaker 1: But before we get going, share with our listeners where
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Speaker 1: you're from originally and where you are currently.
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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm little known.
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Speaker 3: In fact, I was actually born in northern California, but
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Speaker 3: I've moved all over the place, New Jersey, Texas, Florida,
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Speaker 3: then back to Texas, a new part of Texas.
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Speaker 2: I've lived all over the place, and now I'm in
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Speaker 2: west of.
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Speaker 1: Austin, West of Austin. Cool. All right, So we're gonna
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Speaker 1: get into the book. But as an entree way there,
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Speaker 1: how did all this start for you?
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Speaker 3: I think it really started it rooted in the fact
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Speaker 3: that I moved all around the place and all around
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Speaker 3: our country and realized that I loved the people in
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Speaker 3: each place and found people that I cared for and
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Speaker 3: that were really kind, good people, and yet we disagreed politically.
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Speaker 3: And I was drawn to that topic because there was
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Speaker 3: always a pull from my party and the opposing party
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Speaker 3: to say no, only align yourself with the people that
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Speaker 3: align with you politically, and that didn't sit well with me.
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Speaker 3: I knew that there was a way for me to
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Speaker 3: still maintain relationship with my clients that had a different viewpoint,
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Speaker 3: or colleagues or family members, and so I started to
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Speaker 3: explore why is it that I still have the tendency
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Speaker 3: to want to cut them out or shut them down
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Speaker 3: or shut down in response to their intense discussion about politics.
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Speaker 3: I noticed all these different reactions coming up in me,
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Speaker 3: and then I learned about ifs and realized that, oh,
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Speaker 3: these are different protective parts, these different protective instincts coming
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Speaker 3: up in me. And I just felt fascinated by exploring this,
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Speaker 3: and it's led me to the n Way model.
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Speaker 1: So a little let's go back just a little bit.
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Speaker 1: Was that realization? My guess is that didn't lead you
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Speaker 1: into pursuing social work in the first place.
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Speaker 2: I was already in social work, right.
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Speaker 3: I've been really intent on being a therapist since I
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Speaker 3: was a teenager.
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Speaker 1: Okay, what sparked that I.
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Speaker 3: Lost a friend in a car accident when I was
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Speaker 3: in high school and I went to see the school
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Speaker 3: social worker and had such a wonderful experience that I
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Speaker 3: transferred care to seeing a social worker outside of school
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Speaker 3: and had just such a wonderful therapeutic experience and healed
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Speaker 3: and made a lot of changes in my life and realized,
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Speaker 3: that's cool, I want to do that, and I went
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Speaker 3: to school. I totally shifted from wanting to be an
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Speaker 3: academic so wanting to go into social work, and then
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Speaker 3: I never looked back. I have always felt like I
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Speaker 3: am truly in the right place, completely convicted, this is
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Speaker 3: what I meant to do.
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Speaker 1: That is amazing. What was so great about that meeting
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Speaker 1: that woman with that person?
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Speaker 3: Rather, I think just no knowing that I had a
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Speaker 3: great relationship with my parents, and yet there were things
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Speaker 3: that I wouldn't have never approached with them, and so
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Speaker 3: knowing that there was this, you know, a relationship out
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Speaker 3: that was a professional relationship with somebody outside of my
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Speaker 3: immediate family that could still offer mentorship and guidance and
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Speaker 3: self reflection. It was just a space that thankfully my
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Speaker 3: parents were very supportive of me having, and it allowed
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Speaker 3: me to change my relationships, change my relationship with myself.
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Speaker 3: My relationship with food just opened up a lot of
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Speaker 3: doors for me, and it allowed me to feel really
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Speaker 3: empowered going into college and was able to have just
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Speaker 3: a wonderful experience in that transition becoming independent. And I
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Speaker 3: just looked, I look back at it with a lot
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Speaker 3: of gratitude.
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Speaker 1: Wow, sounds amazing. Jesus. All right, So you get you're like,
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Speaker 1: I'm going to be a social worker. You get into school.
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Speaker 1: When you were going through that program, that education, those courses,
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Speaker 1: what were you thinking? Were you thinking what trauma or
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Speaker 1: what addiction?
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Speaker 3: I wanted to work with addiction for sure. That was
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Speaker 3: where I was always. I was always let and that's
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Speaker 3: where I started my career. I did not start thinking
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Speaker 3: I was going to touch on politics and peacemaking by
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Speaker 3: any means.
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Speaker 1: So why addiction?
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Speaker 3: I was always I in high school. I was not
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Speaker 3: drawn to partying myself, and yet I was always surrounded
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Speaker 3: by that crowd, and really, you know, felt very comfortable
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Speaker 3: kind of being in that being in that position of
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Speaker 3: witnessing it and yet not having interested in it myself,
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Speaker 3: and and was just kind of always drawn and fascinated
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Speaker 3: by that tension of watching people feel compelled to use
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Speaker 3: substances in this way of like you know, social interaction
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Speaker 3: or in some cases an extreme and we have family
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Speaker 3: history of that going into an addictive pattern. And it
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Speaker 3: just for me was not something that I personally wanted
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Speaker 3: to engage agent. And yet I saw some of the
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Speaker 3: pain that came from that when it went into extreme,
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Speaker 3: and I, yeah, I don't I don't totally know why
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Speaker 3: it drew me in so much, But I was I
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Speaker 3: was very comfortable with it. It didn't scare me, you know,
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Speaker 3: and it didn't and I didn't judge it. And that
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Speaker 3: was the weird thing is I was just very comfortable
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Speaker 3: with it, and yet I wasn't interested in it myself.
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Speaker 3: It was like enough compassion for it without getting flooded
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Speaker 3: by it and being able to witness someone going through that.
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Speaker 3: I did inpatient, you know, detox facilities for a while,
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Speaker 3: doing intake appointments, medication assisted treatment, outpatient program, kind of
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Speaker 3: a bunch of different versions of addiction treatment.
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Speaker 1: So how you touched upon it a little bit? But
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Speaker 1: how does this interest in peacemaking and the sort of
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Speaker 1: peace making come about? What's what's what's the fertile groundwork
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Speaker 1: from which it sprang in a sense.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think definitely the having relationships already established the
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Speaker 3: people that I acknowledged, we didn't ever touch on politics,
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Speaker 3: and then when we did, I went, how do I
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Speaker 3: reconcile this version of you that I know with this
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Speaker 3: new information? And then I think the history of the
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Speaker 3: other part of my social work career where I was
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Speaker 3: in community mental health, either doing home visits, working in
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Speaker 3: the detox facility, or any of these other programs. I
7:25
Speaker 3: was able to constantly see people that were just incredible
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Speaker 3: people getting stuck in patterns that they themselves really disliked
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Speaker 3: getting stuck in, and they would say it out loud
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Speaker 3: and they would recognize they didn't want to be in
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Speaker 3: it anymore, and yet still felt compelled like they couldn't
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Speaker 3: they couldn't quite you know, crack the code. And I
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Speaker 3: think some of that has to do with systemic barriers,
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Speaker 3: and some of that has to do with the pattern
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Speaker 3: that's been set for a long time, that certainty of
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Speaker 3: misery idea. And I was drawn in by this parts concept,
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Speaker 3: this ifs language of how do we on or the
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Speaker 3: pattern that's already been set, the way that somebody is maybe.
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Speaker 2: Already set in their ways.
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Speaker 3: They're either getting aggressive when they in this case talk
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Speaker 3: about politics or controversial topics, or they get they shut
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Speaker 3: down in response to uncomfortable conversations, so they don't want
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Speaker 3: to go there. How can we look at those patterns
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Speaker 3: as not the only way they're ever going to be,
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Speaker 3: Just like with addiction pattern it doesn't have to be
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Speaker 3: the way it's been is the way it's going to be.
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Speaker 3: How can I look at that part of them that
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Speaker 3: pattern that they've created as something that could shift to
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Speaker 3: still serve them well and not go into extremity where
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Speaker 3: it's causing harm. Same with you know, substance use, not
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Speaker 3: needing to go to the point where somebody's then it's
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Speaker 3: impacting their family members, it's impacting their financial situation, it's
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Speaker 3: impacting their work life. So kind of boiling down all
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Speaker 3: these different protective instincts that I witnessed with all my
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Speaker 3: different clients over the course of the first ten years
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Speaker 3: is in a similar concept of the and way is
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Speaker 3: meant to not just be used for politics, but be
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Speaker 3: used for looking at the extreme ways our behavioral patterns
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Speaker 3: can take over, and how can we not let those
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Speaker 3: go into such extreme by accepting them and working with them.
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Speaker 1: So all right, so give me an example of you
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Speaker 1: were just talking about maybe a person, family member, whomever,
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Speaker 1: What would it what might that have looked like had
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Speaker 1: that person utilized been able to utilize the end way,
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Speaker 1: And then we'll get more specifically into what the book
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Speaker 1: is about.
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Speaker 3: Hmmm, yeah, yeah, So, you know, one of my clients
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Speaker 3: that I was working with for a long time that
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Speaker 3: has OCD. They're stuck in a pattern of compulsive behaviors
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Speaker 3: where they're regularly completing a task that they don't want
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Speaker 3: to keep doing.
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Speaker 2: They know that it gets them.
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Speaker 3: Stuck in this pattern and they feel frustrated with it,
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Speaker 3: resentful of it. And yet the reason why it served
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Speaker 3: them well is that when they when they look back,
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Speaker 3: they recognize this pattern of keeping themselves safe has to
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Speaker 3: do with checking things, making sure that they've they've you know,
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Speaker 3: responded to someone, they're not offending someone, or that they've
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Speaker 3: turned off the lights when they leave the house, you know,
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Speaker 3: something that allows them to get that sense of safety
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Speaker 3: temporarily by completing this task. So instead of looking at
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Speaker 3: that behavior as just something bad that we need to repress,
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Speaker 3: we need to get rid of looking at that behavior
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Speaker 3: as a pattern that's developed with the intention of creating
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Speaker 3: a sense of safety, and now it's gone into such
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Speaker 3: extreme that pattern has been used so many times that
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Speaker 3: now it's causing harm, and so how can we work
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Speaker 3: with that pattern instead of working against it?
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Speaker 1: Okay, so what would that look like if you're working
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Speaker 1: with that pattern? What might that look like? It?
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Speaker 3: So being able to practice my favorite first phrase to
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Speaker 3: start out with is being able to practice acknowledgment. It
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Speaker 3: makes sense that this response is coming up, it makes sense.
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Speaker 3: It's here because I want to feel safe, instead of going, oh,
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Speaker 3: I'm so sick of I'm so frustrated with this response
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Speaker 3: for being here, instead of resenting it, so providing some
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Speaker 3: compassion for that instinct, and then being able to work
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Speaker 3: with finding out where that line is between where is
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Speaker 3: this serving me well?
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Speaker 2: Still?
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Speaker 3: How can I still use this to my benefit? How
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Speaker 3: can I essentially think about OCD? For example, one of
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Speaker 3: the classics we think of as somebody washing their hands.
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Speaker 3: I like to think of the question, what is washing
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Speaker 3: my hands one time for twenty seconds under warm water?
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Speaker 2: What is the version of that in this other pattern?
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Speaker 3: Instead of going into extreme where I'm washing so aggressively
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Speaker 3: that I'm hurting my hands or I am using too
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Speaker 3: hot of water, what is checking one time and then
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Speaker 3: leaving the house or.
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Speaker 2: Checking in with this other person.
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Speaker 3: That's another compulsion that happens with somebody with relational OCD
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Speaker 3: that if somebody is upset with me, I allow it
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Speaker 3: to be instead of checking in over and over and
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Speaker 3: seeking reassurance. So there are a lot of those examples
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Speaker 3: of somebody with OCD where we then navigate how do
11:47
Speaker 3: we tell when we're in extreme and then we just
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Speaker 3: accept and let it go after that first time, and
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Speaker 3: then by incorporating dialectics, we can maybe practice an example
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Speaker 3: of I have this positive intention, it makes sense, and
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Speaker 3: I'm wanting to do this, and I have to accept
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Speaker 3: that it's no longer serving me. Well, so we're using
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Speaker 3: that and to put those two things together, and that's
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Speaker 3: how we hold both at the same time. I'm seeing
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Speaker 3: the positive intention and I'm seeing how it causes harm.
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Speaker 1: So when you were practicing, when you were just starting
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Speaker 1: out before the end way, were you what were you
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Speaker 1: what was going through your mind when you were working
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Speaker 1: in this context where you're thinking, Okay, there's not really
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Speaker 1: a set way to deal with this type of issue
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Speaker 1: or what because obviously you're utilizing already established interventions.
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Speaker 2: Right right.
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Speaker 3: So I was recognizing that there was such an emphasis
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Speaker 3: on using the kind of push against the behavior. We're
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Speaker 3: pressing the behavior instead of creating a lot more space
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Speaker 3: for there to be some acceptance and appreciation of the
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Speaker 3: pattern that's been in place.
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Speaker 2: And those are the models that kept being introduced to me.
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Speaker 3: And then I found too that if we get too
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Speaker 3: deep into some of the models, people get a little
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Speaker 3: resistant to some of the everybody's on a different page
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Speaker 3: in terms of how abstract they're comfortable with going in
13:16
Speaker 3: some of these models. And I've found that this combination
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Speaker 3: of using some strategies, specifically with holding two truths, people
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Speaker 3: are a lot more down with that now than maybe
13:25
Speaker 3: a decade ago.
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Speaker 2: Parts language.
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Speaker 3: I think that culturally we use parts language allow, okay,
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Speaker 3: part of me wants to go out tonight, and a
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Speaker 3: pardon me wants to stay in tonight.
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Speaker 2: I use those things.
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Speaker 3: In kind of layman terms to make it a little
13:37
Speaker 3: bit more easy to digest, and then I do a
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Speaker 3: lot of somatic work with people to also be able
13:45
Speaker 3: to recognize when we practice this, how is your body responding,
13:49
Speaker 3: and then using movement some of the nervous system understanding
13:52
Speaker 3: that we have now to not just let not just
13:55
Speaker 3: talk about it, but actually move our bodies through some
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Speaker 3: of the change that's happening. And that's where I love
14:00
Speaker 3: incorporating AMDR as well.
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Speaker 1: Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Kelsey Blonnick.
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Speaker 1: The book is called The and Way, Asserting Peacemaking in
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Speaker 1: a Divided World. You know, when we first touched upon
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Speaker 1: the book, you mentioned the political environment and obviously right
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Speaker 1: now it is crazy and this book maybe you feel
14:27
Speaker 1: like it's the right time and place. But how when
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Speaker 1: did you decide to write the book and who's it for? HM?
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Speaker 3: I really wrote it initially for myself and my kids
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Speaker 3: for them to in the future have this this framework,
14:44
Speaker 3: and then for my clients because I was in the
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Speaker 3: middle of the pandemic and recognizing how polarized we were
14:51
Speaker 3: and how polarized I was internally. I recognized how many
14:54
Speaker 3: assumptions I was making about the person I would see
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Speaker 3: at the supermarket not wearing their mask the way that
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Speaker 3: I I think they should be wearing their mask, or
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Speaker 3: the person talking about social distancing and too much of
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Speaker 3: an extreme to what I thought was, you know. And
15:06
Speaker 3: so I started recognizing all these assumptions that I was
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Speaker 3: creating about the other person and needed to reflect and
15:14
Speaker 3: go back to using this model to look at other
15:17
Speaker 3: people in a different light, not just help myself.
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Speaker 2: I believe that self.
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Speaker 3: Healing leads to world healing, and so I felt like
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Speaker 3: I could use this to really break down some of
15:28
Speaker 3: the biases that I was holding so that I could
15:30
Speaker 3: have more intimate relationships ultimately and look at my clients.
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Speaker 1: Okay, so how did you organize the book? And let's
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Speaker 1: try to get after we do the broad brush strokes
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Speaker 1: I want to get specifically, but how did you want
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Speaker 1: to put the book together?
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Speaker 3: Well, at first, I started writing this as a book
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Speaker 3: for parenting about how we raise the next generation of
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Speaker 3: kiddos to be able to do this, to be a
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Speaker 3: little bit more open to having relationships with folks that
16:04
Speaker 3: are thinking, you know, worshiping, voting differently than us. And
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Speaker 3: ultimately I decided I wanted to make this some more
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Speaker 3: more broad effort first and share it with anyone and everyone,
16:15
Speaker 3: and that is still you know, in the works for later.
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Speaker 3: The book is broken down into two parts. The first
16:21
Speaker 3: part is only looking at the internal work, so it's
16:24
Speaker 3: the first part is introducing here are a bunch of
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Speaker 3: the other interventions, as you mentioned, that are available to
16:30
Speaker 3: us through all this amazing research that's already been done.
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Speaker 3: These are all these evidence based practices, and this is
16:35
Speaker 3: how you can kind of eclectically put those together to
16:40
Speaker 3: create an under some self healing and an understanding of
16:44
Speaker 3: how you can now engage. In the second part of
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Speaker 3: the book, how you can then engage other people on
16:49
Speaker 3: a micro, meso and macro level. So first in your
16:52
Speaker 3: one on one familial and friendship and colleague relationships, and
16:56
Speaker 3: then and parent to child, and then in a mezzo
17:00
Speaker 3: level all the organizations that you're part of, and then
17:02
Speaker 3: when you're looking more broadly at political parties, at the media,
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Speaker 3: at the government, like, how can you apply the same
17:08
Speaker 3: framework of being not as extreme living into more of
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Speaker 3: the gray? How can you apply that on the on
17:13
Speaker 3: a broader scale?
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Speaker 1: So, using yourself as an example, what did you realize
17:22
Speaker 1: or learn that you had to do or could do
17:27
Speaker 1: to maybe move into these potentially polarizing situations with a
17:33
Speaker 1: little more awareness and clarity? What do you would you learn?
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Speaker 3: I started to recognize when I would get stuck in
17:39
Speaker 3: what I call the good bad gridlock, whenever I would
17:42
Speaker 3: start to name somebody categorize them as good or bad,
17:47
Speaker 3: or when I would name, you know, an organization or
17:49
Speaker 3: a business or a party as good or bad and
17:53
Speaker 3: be able to notice it first then recognize that intention
17:56
Speaker 3: that that part of me had to be buyinario that
17:59
Speaker 3: that rigid, rigidly thinking part of me is really trying
18:03
Speaker 3: to make sure that I know what's safe and not
18:05
Speaker 3: and then be able to acknowledge it makes sense that
18:07
Speaker 3: that instinct is there. And if I do that in
18:10
Speaker 3: an extreme fashion, I'm not able to live a full life.
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Speaker 3: I'm not living as expansively because I'm not connecting. There's
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Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm going to block out everyone is bad
18:19
Speaker 3: if at any point someone makes a mistake and I'm
18:21
Speaker 3: that rigid about it, there's no organization I can keep
18:24
Speaker 3: being a part of if I keep writing everyone that
18:26
Speaker 3: disappoints me off right, so well, it'll my.
18:30
Speaker 2: Group will keep getting smaller and smaller.
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Speaker 1: So I have let me, let me just if I
18:34
Speaker 1: may just interdect one thing here, And it's what you're
18:37
Speaker 1: what you're saying is so uh interesting, and yet it's
18:43
Speaker 1: so hard to do right because we're living in this
18:46
Speaker 1: culture that's pulling us, almost encouraging us to choose, yes,
18:52
Speaker 1: you know this way or that way, and God forbid
18:54
Speaker 1: you do so.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, exactly.
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Speaker 3: We're we're really fed the idea that if we're not certain,
19:05
Speaker 3: or if we're if we aren't all in on something,
19:09
Speaker 3: then we're not invested at all, that it's either zero
19:14
Speaker 3: or one hundred, and you don't get to cast your
19:16
Speaker 3: vote for somebody saying I believe seventy five percent of
19:19
Speaker 3: what they say, you just have to cast your full vote.
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Speaker 3: So then it implies that we're one hundred percent in
19:25
Speaker 3: on this candidate or on this party, or on this
19:27
Speaker 3: institution that we're allowing our kids to be a part
19:31
Speaker 3: of or families participate in, when there is nuance within
19:34
Speaker 3: our belief system, even though we have some allegiance to
19:37
Speaker 3: that other entity.
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Speaker 1: So right away off the bat, if I'm hearing you correctly,
19:45
Speaker 1: you're inviting the reader to first of all, develop a
19:49
Speaker 1: certain awareness, right because just to play this game in
19:55
Speaker 1: a sense, you've got to understand or accept the fact that,
19:59
Speaker 1: hold on, this is what's going on for me, I'm
20:01
Speaker 1: being pulled and so okay, so I buy in. I'm
20:08
Speaker 1: willing to understand that I need to raise my level
20:12
Speaker 1: of awareness. What's next?
20:15
Speaker 3: Then I go through the book teaching folks how to
20:18
Speaker 3: also build a tolerance for all that discomfort.
20:22
Speaker 2: So develop using some ERP and ACT strategies.
20:25
Speaker 3: Looking at how can I what is RP yes Exposure
20:29
Speaker 3: and response prevention. So building a tolerance by not just
20:33
Speaker 3: think about when you go to the gym, how you
20:34
Speaker 3: don't just go pick up three hundred pounds the first
20:36
Speaker 3: time you've ever been there. But how do we kind
20:38
Speaker 3: of flex these muscles with five pounds and eight pounds
20:40
Speaker 3: and ten pounds and move our way up so that
20:43
Speaker 3: we're not expecting that, after you know, reading the first chapter,
20:46
Speaker 3: even after reading this book, that folks aren't going right
20:48
Speaker 3: out and grabbing the person they disagree with the most
20:51
Speaker 3: in the neighborhood and saying, let's sit on the lawn
20:53
Speaker 3: and have a good old chat for three hours.
20:55
Speaker 2: But rather, how.
20:56
Speaker 3: Can you start to engage a little bit more and
20:59
Speaker 3: more and more or at a time so we can
21:01
Speaker 3: start to have more productive conflict.
21:04
Speaker 1: I think that, to me is kind of the goal,
21:07
Speaker 1: because part of me wanted to ask you, what's the upside?
21:11
Speaker 1: Why do I want to do this? Why would anyone
21:13
Speaker 1: want to do this? I'm fine where I am.
21:17
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a great question for me.
21:20
Speaker 3: It's because I have more intimate relationships. I have this
21:24
Speaker 3: depth of relationship when there is accountability and there is
21:29
Speaker 3: an awareness that we are both imperfect people that are
21:33
Speaker 3: going to keep growing, learning, messing up, asking for forgiveness,
21:37
Speaker 3: that we're going to have to do that, and I
21:39
Speaker 3: want to demand that of my relationship, that I want
21:44
Speaker 3: to have a depth with larger settings as well, not
21:47
Speaker 3: just one on one, but that I want to have
21:49
Speaker 3: an expectation that my leader in a religious institution, my
21:53
Speaker 3: leader politically, that they're going to have flaws as well,
21:56
Speaker 3: they're going to not be able to be held to
21:59
Speaker 3: a perfect standard as well, so that I can feel
22:01
Speaker 3: more like a more expansive experience in my life, and
22:05
Speaker 3: so that I can have a depth in my sense
22:07
Speaker 3: of community.
22:09
Speaker 1: Does this book does this theory or platform philosophy, if
22:16
Speaker 1: you will, Does it demand that there are two parties
22:22
Speaker 1: who are equally aware or equally bought in, In other words,
22:30
Speaker 1: in order to have a conversation, Uh, you know, because
22:35
Speaker 1: I'm thinking right off the bat, I have a relative
22:39
Speaker 1: who is the complete opposite of myself in terms of
22:45
Speaker 1: politics and many other things. And in order for me
22:50
Speaker 1: to engage that person in discussion, do they also have
22:54
Speaker 1: to want or admit to themselves that they need a
22:59
Speaker 1: certain level of awareness, greater sitting, greater sense of awareness.
23:04
Speaker 3: Right, Well, that's exactly why I'm so much more focused,
23:08
Speaker 3: especially initially in the book. The start is the self healing,
23:12
Speaker 3: because there's a lot of acceptance that's why there's a
23:15
Speaker 3: big focus on in dialectics on change and acceptance. So
23:18
Speaker 3: I'm going to change and work on what I'm in
23:20
Speaker 3: control of and accept what's out of my control, which
23:23
Speaker 3: is this other person's reaction. So I could come in
23:26
Speaker 3: all day every day being as assertive and you know,
23:29
Speaker 3: checking all the boxes, doing all the exercises that are
23:32
Speaker 3: in my book and a million other books, and yet
23:34
Speaker 3: the other person could still never respond the ideal way
23:37
Speaker 3: that I'd love for them respond. And I'm not going
23:39
Speaker 3: in with the goal that I'm changing their viewpoint either
23:43
Speaker 3: or that were I don't also need to have a
23:46
Speaker 3: goal that I'm going to have that depth of relationship
23:48
Speaker 3: with every person in my sphere. Right there is different
23:52
Speaker 3: depth of relationship I want to have with different people.
23:54
Speaker 3: There's so much that's the beautiful thing. The whole idea
23:57
Speaker 3: is there's so much nuance to every single ounce of this.
24:00
Speaker 3: But all know that in practicing this myself, every time
24:05
Speaker 3: I do choose, I say, there's mutual enough investment in
24:08
Speaker 3: this relationship that I want to invest in vulnerability and
24:12
Speaker 3: engage another person. And for me that may look different
24:15
Speaker 3: than it is for you, And then it is for
24:16
Speaker 3: the next person of how much capacity and time and
24:19
Speaker 3: energy you want to put to that. All know that
24:21
Speaker 3: when I do that, I'm going to have the internal skills.
24:25
Speaker 3: I'm going to have all those resources available to me
24:28
Speaker 3: to do that in a way that I can walk
24:30
Speaker 3: away proud of or if I don't that I can
24:32
Speaker 3: also come back and I can still repair, because this
24:36
Speaker 3: isn't you know, I'm growing and changing, and I would
24:38
Speaker 3: rather feel really prepared going into those interactions by doing
24:42
Speaker 3: the self healing first than what I think a lot
24:44
Speaker 3: of us are doing is going in having these aggressive
24:47
Speaker 3: or passive or you know, passive aggressive experiences and.
24:51
Speaker 2: Then walking away like, oh I missed my chance.
24:53
Speaker 3: That was and now we're even more divided than we
24:56
Speaker 3: were before because we didn't go in already well resourced.
25:00
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So this is very fascinating to me because
25:06
Speaker 1: it's so hard to do right, because oftentimes we do
25:11
Speaker 1: when we come up against someone with opposite beliefs or
25:16
Speaker 1: challenging beliefs, it becomes this kind of a quality of relationship.
25:21
Speaker 1: And what I'm hearing you say is, you know you
25:25
Speaker 1: obviously you can't change that other person, but you can
25:28
Speaker 1: move into the circle the relationship with more awareness and
25:34
Speaker 1: more what understanding, more vulnerability, vulnerability, more acceptance.
25:40
Speaker 3: And the one of the words that keeps coming up
25:42
Speaker 3: is dignity. That I can just offer dignity.
25:44
Speaker 1: Dignity, Yeah, dignity, and that in turn allows you to
25:52
Speaker 1: what to live a healthier life, to not go nuts to.
25:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's an individual and a collective gain.
26:01
Speaker 3: I think. I think the collective gain is that we
26:04
Speaker 3: have the best chance of reducing violence. And so from
26:09
Speaker 3: I'm a harm reductionist, so even you know, when I
26:12
Speaker 3: was working in the medication assistant treatment program, that's that's
26:15
Speaker 3: how this all kind of translates as well. I've not
26:18
Speaker 3: looked at, you know, any patterns of something that someone
26:22
Speaker 3: needs to just cut and go cold turkey on changing
26:25
Speaker 3: and repressing any certain behaviors. So I don't think that
26:28
Speaker 3: the likelihood of us having a non violent world altogether
26:31
Speaker 3: is actually you know, realistic, And so in trying to
26:34
Speaker 3: reduce harm and trying to reduce all the political violence
26:36
Speaker 3: that can ensue, especially when we get as divisive and
26:40
Speaker 3: judgmental as our countries become, then any amount that I
26:44
Speaker 3: can contribute to try and reduce that harm is a
26:48
Speaker 3: win for me and then individually, I hope that that
26:51
Speaker 3: allows me to have a more expansive life, one that's
26:54
Speaker 3: more in line with my values, because I'm not holding
26:58
Speaker 3: on to all this out of control, you know, the
27:02
Speaker 3: judgment of Oh, I wish I could just change them.
27:04
Speaker 2: I wish I could fix that in somebody else.
27:06
Speaker 3: I'm able to release that because I know I'm kind
27:09
Speaker 3: of I'm sweeping my side of the street.
27:11
Speaker 2: And I love the.
27:15
Speaker 3: Phrase, the word dignity because I think what I was
27:19
Speaker 3: doing before, when I was still trying to engage peacefully,
27:24
Speaker 3: but I hadn't yet applied the N way as I
27:26
Speaker 3: was pitying people, I think I was pitying people for
27:28
Speaker 3: being more ignorant than I was. And instead, what I've
27:31
Speaker 3: been able to find is dignifying someone else by seeing,
27:35
Speaker 3: instead of going, you have hypocrisy within you because they
27:38
Speaker 3: have this inner conflict, I go, wow, I have what
27:41
Speaker 3: seems as hypocrisy within me. I have inner conflict within
27:44
Speaker 3: me with all these parts warring. So I'm able to
27:47
Speaker 3: look at in both directions with a lot more compassion.
27:51
Speaker 1: There seems to be something very kind of an Eastern
27:58
Speaker 1: Buddhist allows allowance here kind of a what's that martial art.
28:05
Speaker 1: That's very very fluid. There's a fluidity to this that
28:09
Speaker 1: I really like. It's yeah, and it's like, you know,
28:14
Speaker 1: the what is that. I don't know if the zen saying,
28:17
Speaker 1: but like the softest read does not snap, you know,
28:22
Speaker 1: like the tree, the tree in the wind is allowing
28:26
Speaker 1: itself to move with the wind instead of just snapping.
28:29
Speaker 1: That's really cool, all right, Kelsey Blonnick once again, The
28:35
Speaker 1: book is The and Way a sort of peacemaking in
28:38
Speaker 1: a divided world. How do people learn more about you
28:40
Speaker 1: and the book and get the book? What's the best way?
28:43
Speaker 2: Yeah?
28:43
Speaker 3: So my book is out on Amazon right now, The
28:46
Speaker 3: and Way a sort of Peacemaking in a Divided World.
28:48
Speaker 3: And you can also go to The andwaypress dot com
28:51
Speaker 3: to learn more about the book and my speaking engagement opportunities.
28:56
Speaker 3: And then I have a therapy practice, The nWay Therapy
28:59
Speaker 3: in Florida in Texas if you want to reach out
29:02
Speaker 3: looking out for the therapy practice in particular, or you
29:04
Speaker 3: can follow me on Instagram.
29:05
Speaker 2: At the Endway.
29:07
Speaker 1: Okay, and we'll have each of those linked up here
29:09
Speaker 1: at the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist Podcast
29:12
Speaker 1: dot com. Kelsey obviously, it just feels like there's more
29:15
Speaker 1: to talk about. Maybe we'll have you back at a
29:16
Speaker 1: later date. But thank you so much for being here.
29:18
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Good luck with the book, Thank you so much.
29:22
Speaker 1: All right, thank care,