Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / KOHBERGER'S HIDDEN ESSAY REVEALS PLOT TO WALK FREE

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KOHBERGER'S HIDDEN ESSAY REVEALS PLOT TO WALK FREE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Coburger's hidden essay reveals
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Speaker 1: a plot to walk free. This essay, found in thousands
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Speaker 1: of pages of documents in his apartment, is at a
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Speaker 1: harbinger of things to come. Also, Coburger screaming from behind bars,
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Speaker 1: I have mental health disorders. Set me free, and tonight
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Speaker 1: are more Coburger victims emerging. How many are there that
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Speaker 1: we don't know about? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
0:42
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: He was very socially in and speaking on the phone
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Speaker 2: for hours with his parents every single day.
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Speaker 1: He is proud. This is right after the murders, thumbs up,
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Speaker 1: self aggrandizing smile, all cleaned up.
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Speaker 2: He just wants to have power for the people.
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Speaker 1: He's a machine of killing machine. Okay, before I get
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Speaker 1: into the thousands of pages that are being poured over
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Speaker 1: as we speak, one revealing his plot to get a reversal,
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Speaker 1: have his plea deal overthrown and guess what it includes
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Speaker 1: claims of prosecutorial misconduct. But before I can get to that,
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Speaker 1: I've got to talk to Susan Hendrix joining us about
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Speaker 1: the creepy selfies, the shirtless selfies, new ones that have
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Speaker 1: just emerged, exactly. Susan Hendrix joining us, a journalist, investigative reporter,
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Speaker 1: author of Down the heel My, Descent Into the Double
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Speaker 1: Murder and Delphi to the control room. I'd like to
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Speaker 1: see the new selfies. Actually that was a mistatement. I
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Speaker 1: wouldn't like to see them. I'm gonna have to. Oh
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Speaker 1: dear lord, I'm gonna have to report on them. Just
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Speaker 1: hold that. What the hey? What okay? Tell me, Susan,
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Speaker 1: tell me what this is and why I'm having to
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Speaker 1: look at coburger without a shirt on, flexing and staring
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Speaker 1: into the camera. Why is this happening?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they are cringe worthy. And for the company that
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Speaker 2: looked through his data his self, they found out that.
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Speaker 1: He does he actually have his pants pulled down toward
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Speaker 1: his crotch so I can say more of his belly
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Speaker 1: button hair.
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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's like in Sports Illustrated magazine, you
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Speaker 3: know cover the swimsuit is pulled down just a tantalizing
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Speaker 3: bit too low.
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Speaker 1: Is that what he's doing? Ew?
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Speaker 2: You, it's gross, it's cringe worthy. If feel sorry for
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Speaker 2: the families who have to look at that. And I
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Speaker 2: was looking at each picture, getting grossed out by the way,
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Speaker 2: but kind of wondering what is he thinking there? He
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Speaker 2: didn't send these to anyone there for himself. It reminded
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Speaker 2: me of the mar Psycho that movie Just Loving Himself
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Speaker 2: is cringeworthy. Discussing very is flexing. It's perplexing seeing all
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Speaker 2: this evidence. What was on his phone?
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Speaker 1: Okay, I think it's deeper than that. Because doctor Sherry
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Speaker 1: Schwartz joining US forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation at
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Speaker 1: panthermitigation dot com. She is the author of Criminal Behavior
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Speaker 1: and Where a Law in Psychology intersect. Doctor Sherry, thank
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Speaker 1: you for being with us. I noticed that in one
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Speaker 1: of the photos, and I got a lot more important
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Speaker 1: things to discuss with you, but I had to show
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Speaker 1: these creepy selfies. And I want you to juxtapose these selfies,
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Speaker 1: doctor Sherry, with the fact that we know that Gelli
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Speaker 1: Gonsolvis was stabbed in the face thirty times or more.
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Speaker 1: Isn't it true, Joe Scott Morgan, Then we h at
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Speaker 1: hers to even say it, and look at her beautiful face.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and death
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Speaker 1: investigator isn't it true, Joe Scott that when you have
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Speaker 1: multiple stab wounds, as you and I've discussed before, that
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Speaker 1: they begin to overlap because the person's bam bam, bam
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Speaker 1: bam like that with a in this case of cabar knife,
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Speaker 1: and those stab wounds hit each other. As I've referred
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Speaker 1: to it as biting jello. You can't look at the
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Speaker 1: jello and tell how many bites there were. So we
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Speaker 1: know a thirty stab wounds Kelly Gonsolvis sustained to her face.
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Speaker 1: I believe it was Xana that sustained fifty plus stab wounds.
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Speaker 1: Now now I'm having to look at his shirt list Selfees,
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott explain overlapping stab wounds at what was done
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Speaker 1: to Kelly.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, when you begin to think about this, Nancy,
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Speaker 4: this also gives you an indication that he is literally
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Speaker 4: on top of her because the proximity of all these
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Speaker 4: woes you talked about the kind of interlocking or overlapping
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Speaker 4: injuries that she sustained. We're talking about Kayley. Where they
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Speaker 4: are so they are so concentrated that the individual that
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Speaker 4: is perpetrating this has to have this individual pinned in
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Speaker 4: one spot where they cannot move because he keeps hitting
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Speaker 4: the target every single time, over and over and over
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Speaker 4: and over again. Not only not only is he cutting
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Speaker 4: her in sizing her, stabbing her, also she's also sustained
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Speaker 4: multiple blunt force trauma where her facial bones were fractured
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Speaker 4: as well.
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Speaker 1: Nance Okay, guys, we're talking about the stablings only to killing.
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Speaker 1: Go on, solve us right now, But there's so much more.
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Speaker 1: Ethan jugular was sliced, there was arterial bleeding all the
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Speaker 1: way up to the ceiling, and this guy is taking
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Speaker 1: his shirtless selfies for his own enjoyment. Listen to what
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Speaker 1: missus Goldsalves told us.
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Speaker 5: We actually learned all the truth from her autopsy report,
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Speaker 5: and we were given her autopsy report on a thumb
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Speaker 5: drive during the sentence. The investigator walked into the courtroom
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Speaker 5: that day and said, and we had to arranged that,
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Speaker 5: and he said, here's the autops report. So in reading
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Speaker 5: that autopsy report, we found out that Kaylie had been
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Speaker 5: stabbed twenty four times to her face and head. She
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Speaker 5: had eleven to her chest neck and like torso area,
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Speaker 5: and three to her upper extremities.
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Speaker 2: So I thought about her eyes too.
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Speaker 5: I was like was her eyes stabbed, but somehow or another,
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Speaker 5: Kaylee's eyes had not been stabbed. Kaylie did have really
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Speaker 5: bad facial damage. She or some of her teeth were
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Speaker 5: we're missing, several were broken, and she had two subdural
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Speaker 5: hematomas to her head, so.
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Speaker 2: Her nose was broken badly.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Kelly's teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.
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Speaker 1: And did you see Steve Gonsolve as her father at
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Speaker 1: the end of that when when they were speaking with
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Speaker 1: us a few days ago, he as his wife is speaking.
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Speaker 1: I don't know how she even speaks about it. What
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Speaker 1: strength this woman has. He looks like he just wants
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Speaker 1: to take the camera and rip the head off. Just
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Speaker 1: the anger seething in them. And do you blame them?
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Speaker 1: Her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.
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Speaker 4: No, you're talking about this child's daddy, So let that
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Speaker 4: sink in. He I can dollars to donuts. I guarantee
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Speaker 4: m to you. He wants to reach through that camera
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Speaker 4: and grab somebody, and ain't one of us. It's the
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Speaker 4: guy that's currently housed in Idaho Correctional Facility. And I
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Speaker 4: can understand why because Nancy the brutality and not just
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Speaker 4: Cayley's death, but in all of these deaths is pretty
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Speaker 4: much unimaginable. You don't send your kids off to college
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Speaker 4: and expect them to return to you in a casket.
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Speaker 4: It just it doesn't work that way. It's the most
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Speaker 4: disgusting thing on the face of the planet. And this
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Speaker 4: guy was given this guy I'm not going to say
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Speaker 4: his name. I refuse. You can't make me say his name.
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Speaker 4: This guy was given so much latitude leading up and
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Speaker 4: now all of this evidence is coming forward revealing how
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Speaker 4: brutal he was. The timeline leading up to everything, and look,
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Speaker 4: even DNA in this case is far more than we
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Speaker 4: ever expected.
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Speaker 1: There was a trail here, so much evidence. Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: let me see j Just Scott another thing which I'm
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Speaker 1: going to get to, but I had to show these
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Speaker 1: selfies of this guy preening in front of the camera.
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Speaker 1: You do know that he has found a way to
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Speaker 1: appeal his guilty plea, and we uncovered it in his essays.
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Speaker 1: But not only that, I want to ste you on
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Speaker 1: this for a moment. He's now claiming he has all
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Speaker 1: these mental health issues and should be retried or set free,
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Speaker 1: and one of them is an eating disorder. Okay, hold
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Speaker 1: that thought, Doctor Sherry Schwartz. Back to you, joining US
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Speaker 1: forensics expert psychologist, Doctor Sherry Schwartz. His obsession with American psycho.
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Speaker 1: I don't get it, but can I talk to you
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Speaker 1: about his preening in front of the camera and flexing
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Speaker 1: and what it means. It's like Monk. Did you ever
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Speaker 1: see Monk? Monk only wore a certain he's a brilliant
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Speaker 1: homicide investigator. He only wore one type of shirt every day.
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Speaker 1: I think it was a pale blue button down, just
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Speaker 1: like in this case. Occasionally Coburg will go crazy and
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Speaker 1: we're a white button down. But that said, they're lined
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Speaker 1: up behind him and some of the shots. What is
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Speaker 1: this revealing to you? Because the crime scene is blood soaked,
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Speaker 1: it looks like a Jackson Pollock. The closet and the
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Speaker 1: home where he takes these pictures is like bleached clean,
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Speaker 1: and there's this freaky row of all blue button down
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Speaker 1: shirts behind him. What is that, doctor Sherry.
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Speaker 6: I mean a part of it could be his fascination
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Speaker 6: with some level of fame, even if it is something
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Speaker 6: he'll keep internally to feel better about himself. That he's
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Speaker 6: just like Christian vale in American Psycho. But he'll do
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Speaker 6: it better and not get caught. We know how that
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Speaker 6: worked out. These selfies are disturbing because we know that
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Speaker 6: they're not being sent to anyone. They would be disturbing
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Speaker 6: if they're being sent to someone, but.
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Speaker 1: In this case, these are for him. And so it
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Speaker 1: suggested to me that he has.
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Speaker 6: Some sort of internal dialogue going on where he's fascinated
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Speaker 6: with this idea of got.
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Speaker 1: Got to Sherry, got to Sherry. Wait, wait, I want
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Speaker 1: you to look at the screen right now. Okay, Susan Hendricks,
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Speaker 1: I'm going to get Schwartz's analysis of this. But he
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Speaker 1: is saluting the camera. Now, is this particular shot this
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Speaker 1: was taken after the murders, correct Susan Hendricks.
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Speaker 2: It absolutely was. And you see that on his knuckle
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Speaker 2: there the injury.
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Speaker 1: You know, it's almost as if just Scott speaking of
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Speaker 1: the military, he's saying job complete done and saluting.
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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, he is offering up this half assed salute
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Speaker 4: that is doing. But what's more significant there is this
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Speaker 4: abraided area on his knuckle. Nancy, that's key. This thing
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Speaker 4: looks like it's in a state of resolve, but it's
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Speaker 4: still relatively fresh in this in this image, the edges
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Speaker 4: from my appearance, from my perspective right now is kind
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Speaker 4: of dried out. But yeah, how do you how do
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Speaker 4: you explain that? Look, we get things all the time
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Speaker 4: on our hands, people at work, you know, with their hands.
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Speaker 4: This guy's a PhD student, Nancy, and doing domainial labor,
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Speaker 4: all right, So we have to begin to think what
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Speaker 4: other kind of injuries did did he have that he
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Speaker 4: was presenting with? Did anybody else see anything else on
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Speaker 4: the surface of his skin? And you know, I begin
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Speaker 4: to think back, we've just discussed the brutality of this
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Speaker 4: multiple homicide, this butchery. He's got to have some injury somewhere.
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Speaker 4: There's something because you know, when you're using a knife
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Speaker 4: like this over and over again, you're also using I
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Speaker 4: think he used it as a bludgeon as well, where
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Speaker 4: he could flip it over and use the end of
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Speaker 4: the knife, and that's going to involve his fist. And
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Speaker 4: even if he's gloved, you're still going to get these
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Speaker 4: little injuries like that through the glove, even through a
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Speaker 4: latex glove, because there's an abraided area. There's a friction
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Speaker 4: that occurs when you strike something, and that would that would.
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Speaker 1: Potentially let me throw this to Josh colesrude. Josh Colsrud's
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Speaker 1: joining us right now, Come on, defense attorney, former US
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Speaker 1: attorney founder Coulsrud Law Offices. What do you do when
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Speaker 1: you're a client after the murders and we know he
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Speaker 1: committed the murders because he's pled guilty, there's no doubt left,
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Speaker 1: and he has on a pair it looks like black
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Speaker 1: klingy tights pull down, I would say, almost to his
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Speaker 1: pubic hair. Dare I even think of that? Okay, yeah,
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Speaker 1: thank you? With a cut to his finger, and this
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Speaker 1: is what he's doing. You know those would come into evidence.
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Speaker 1: How disgusted do you believe that your rs would be
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Speaker 1: if they had seen that? This is just part of
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Speaker 1: the evidence the prosecution hid from the victims' families before
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Speaker 1: he entered that deal behind their backs. What about it
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Speaker 1: calls rude?
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Speaker 7: Well, first off, I think we can all agree that mister.
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Speaker 8: Coberger is a cold blooded killer.
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Speaker 7: However, as a former prosecutor, looking at these selfies, you
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Speaker 7: know a selfie is not a smoking gun. In twenty
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Speaker 7: twenty five, everybody takes them. If a selfie equaled vanity,
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Speaker 7: then half of America.
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Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, but put him up? Put him up? Well,
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Speaker 1: where do you think you are? Do you think you're
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Speaker 1: in pre K right now? Are you a nursery school?
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Speaker 1: Look around. You can't just say something like that and
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Speaker 1: not expect to get caught on the carpet. Do you
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Speaker 1: take shirtless selfies? I'm just curious, Josh, do you stand
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Speaker 1: in front of the mirror with your pants pulled down
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Speaker 1: to your crotch and buff all up and take a
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Speaker 1: do you?
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Speaker 7: I'd like to know if I was in college and
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Speaker 7: I had an iPhone, which I didn't when I was
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Speaker 7: in college, but if I did, I'm sure that I
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Speaker 7: would have, as would all of my friends and all
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Speaker 7: of my girlfriends.
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Speaker 1: Then is that a no, you don't? As you doesn't.
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Speaker 1: I don't you take shirtless selfies where you're all like
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Speaker 1: clinched up?
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Speaker 7: You know?
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Speaker 8: I wouldn't say that. It would be unusual to do that.
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Speaker 7: You know, sometimes when you do the track of how
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Speaker 7: you look when you're working out to be like, all right,
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Speaker 7: I want to take a picture of how I look
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Speaker 7: now and compare it to myself a couple of months
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Speaker 7: from now to see if I have the improvement.
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Speaker 8: So I think that there are advantages to taking selfies.
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Speaker 1: Okay, you know, just cut the crap. Okay, you don't,
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Speaker 1: you don't McDonough help him. Chris McDonough joining me, Director
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Speaker 1: Cole Case Foundation, homicide detective who has scoured this crime scene.
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Speaker 1: He started the interview room on YouTube. Please. The point
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Speaker 1: is not a shirtless selfie. The point is he's doing
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Speaker 1: this right after the murders, right around the time of
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Speaker 1: the murders. That's where his head is. Those four students
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Speaker 1: lost their lives as part of his vanity project.
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Speaker 9: Yeah.
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Speaker 10: Absolutely, And you know, just look at the salute. The
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Speaker 10: salute is a cub scout salute. I mean he's got
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Speaker 10: two fingers put together with the injury on his hand,
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Speaker 10: and it just goes to show, you know, how empty
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Speaker 10: this guy is. There's nothing there. I mean, these pictures
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Speaker 10: look like they just came out on the movie Zoolander.
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Speaker 10: I mean, he has been projecting this persona for so
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Speaker 10: long and now the crime is finished, and now he's
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Speaker 10: trying to gain power as a result of look what
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Speaker 10: I have done. And these are disgusting, but it goes
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Speaker 10: in in concert with the type of personality he is.
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Speaker 1: Colsrud I would like to hear, although you will neither
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Speaker 1: admit or deny your own shortless selfies. That said, how
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Speaker 1: would you get that suppressed? Because you do not want
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Speaker 1: the jury to say that.
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Speaker 7: I would argue that it is unfairly prejudicial pursuant to
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Speaker 7: Rule four h three.
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Speaker 8: Rules of Evidence.
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Speaker 7: It doesn't show that he has motive, it doesn't show
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Speaker 7: that it's a confession. It's not even sent to any person.
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Speaker 7: It is solely for himself. It was found on his
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Speaker 7: phone subsequent to when after he was arrested. And if
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Speaker 7: I'm the prosecutor in the case, the only way that
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Speaker 7: I can think I could get this in would be
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Speaker 7: to show injury like you showed on his knuckles. But
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Speaker 7: the fact that he's shirtless or portrays Christian Bale and
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Speaker 7: American psycho. Unless there's some writings that he has where
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Speaker 7: he says I want to be like American psycho, and
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Speaker 7: then you can juxtapose that picture.
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Speaker 8: Maybe, but it's going to.
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Speaker 7: Be a tough sell to the judge, and I think
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Speaker 7: that would be precluded.
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Speaker 1: Hold on, Josh CALSRD, do you want a lot of cases,
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Speaker 1: But let me remind you that evs can come in
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Speaker 1: front of the jury to show motive, course of conduct,
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Speaker 1: frame of mind, intent, the mental state at the time
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Speaker 1: of the incident. These selfies will come in for that.
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Speaker 1: And as far as did he write about American Psycho,
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Speaker 1: he had a cash treasure trove of American Psycho videos
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Speaker 1: and photos, so he didn't have to write about it.
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Speaker 1: He was looking at him and doing the Lord only
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Speaker 1: what as he was looking at them. And also the
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Speaker 1: timing of these photos is very important, just before and
19:08
Speaker 1: after the murders goes to whether the murders were sexually motivated.
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Speaker 1: We also know, don't we don't we Susan Hendrix that
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Speaker 1: found on his phone were many many searches of raping women,
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Speaker 1: having sex with women when they were comatos. That was
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Speaker 1: one of his sex fantasies. That's what he expected to
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Speaker 1: find the night he went into eleven twenty two, King wrote,
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Speaker 1: but that's not what he found and they all died.
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Speaker 1: So all of this fits together with a sex related motive,
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Speaker 1: doesn't it well?
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Speaker 2: One hundred percent? Nancy. And as we were talking about
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Speaker 2: it twenty twenty two, think about that house on King wrote,
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Speaker 2: how much fun they had They posted on social media selfies.
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Speaker 2: I believe that Brian Koberger not only stopped the students
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Speaker 2: that he killed. I believe he was stalking others. And
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Speaker 2: I believe he stopped them online too, So now is
20:06
Speaker 2: he mimicking them now I could take selfies. I believe
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Speaker 2: he was jealous of their friendships, and I believe that's
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Speaker 2: what he was doing there Washington State. Planning this murder on.
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Speaker 11: A location of your emergency.
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Speaker 2: I don't think he's happen in our hotel.
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Speaker 11: You don't know what what is address of the emergency?
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Speaker 11: What is the rest of the address?
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Speaker 1: Oh, King two Roads, Okay?
20:38
Speaker 11: And there's not a house for an apartment, it's a house.
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Speaker 11: Can you repeat theadress to make sure that I have
20:44
Speaker 11: it right.
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Speaker 8: I'll talk to you guys. We're we have a delight,
20:49
Speaker 8: so we're next to them.
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Speaker 11: I need someone to repeat the address for raification.
20:54
Speaker 10: The address one one to two Kings.
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Speaker 1: Rugs Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 10: It's a social awkward us.
21:12
Speaker 1: He doesn't know how to relate to other people. He's
21:14
Speaker 1: alienated himself.
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Speaker 12: Nobody wants to be around the guy, let alone give
21:18
Speaker 12: them their telephone number and address to be added as
21:21
Speaker 12: a contact to his phone.
21:23
Speaker 1: Because I don't think he feels much at all. All
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Speaker 1: the bloody clothes, the bloody ever is all gone, and
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Speaker 1: there he is songs up. Guys, I did it.
21:35
Speaker 8: This is his dissertation.
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Speaker 1: This is what he was.
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Speaker 8: Preparing for the whole time.
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Speaker 1: This is why he was able to pull it off.
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Speaker 1: This guy Kiberger left a trail a mile wide, and
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Speaker 1: the prosecution hid all of these facts from the victims'
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Speaker 1: families and the public and then took a deal informing
21:56
Speaker 1: them about the play deal after it had already been accepted.
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Speaker 1: And isn't it true, Josh Colesry, veteran trial lawyer, that
22:05
Speaker 1: once a plea dealers offered and accepted, there's no going back.
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Speaker 7: Yes, once a please accepted, it is ironclad, almost no
22:14
Speaker 7: appealable rights, except for under three circumstances. A in effective
22:18
Speaker 7: assist as a council is one, A number two prospratorial
22:21
Speaker 7: and misconduct, or number three a manifest injustice.
22:25
Speaker 1: Now what we are learning is Susan Hendricks joining US
22:27
Speaker 1: investigative journalist who has been there on the scene from
22:31
Speaker 1: the get go. He is writing and writing and writing it.
22:36
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote some of his writings that we've
22:38
Speaker 1: uncovered in thousands of pages that were taken from his
22:42
Speaker 1: Washington State apartment. The confessed killer writes at length about
22:48
Speaker 1: how procedural injustice in the American system has produced many
22:54
Speaker 1: false confessions quote false guilty please manifest due to a
22:59
Speaker 1: lack of judicial oversight, blaming the judge and plea deals
23:04
Speaker 1: that seemed to compel the defendant to enter them force
23:07
Speaker 1: the defendant to plead guilty under oath. If defendants failed
23:11
Speaker 1: to accept a plea bargain, he writes, prosecutors will seek
23:16
Speaker 1: this trick discharges. Some people plead guilty to crimes they
23:21
Speaker 1: didn't commit, as to choose the lesser of two evils.
23:26
Speaker 1: So we've got him blaming the judge the system. Now,
23:30
Speaker 1: he says, quote eyewitness misidentification is an issue and therefore
23:38
Speaker 1: we need increasing video surveillance, which is interesting since he
23:45
Speaker 1: picked a home that had no surveillance cameras. He goes
23:50
Speaker 1: on Susan Hendrix to blame prosecutorial misconduct. He describes unethical
24:01
Speaker 1: behavior where people played guilty when they shouldn't. Have Another
24:07
Speaker 1: seven page single space paper we discovered refers to a
24:12
Speaker 1: gruesome stabbing murder case. His words, not mine. Blood pulled
24:18
Speaker 1: around the victim and was spattered on the walls and
24:22
Speaker 1: television near the victim's body. He describes how the victim
24:27
Speaker 1: was found, the grizzly details. He goes on and on
24:33
Speaker 1: and on. Okay, explain to me, Susan Hendrix, this plot
24:41
Speaker 1: revealing Coburger's alleged plans to walk free to get out
24:48
Speaker 1: of the plea deal.
24:50
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I believe after reading that that he had
24:54
Speaker 2: planned this every single day, even the plea he planned.
24:58
Speaker 2: I believe this was all that he thought about, all
25:01
Speaker 2: that he did. And Nancy, I listened to your heartfelt
25:03
Speaker 2: conversation with Kelly's parents. The laughable part here is they
25:07
Speaker 2: might have a case against the prosecutor, not Brian Coober Cober.
25:11
Speaker 2: It's not going to work here that they were if
25:14
Speaker 2: anything nice to him. I remember hearing the judge say, oh,
25:17
Speaker 2: you don't have to stand up. This was during the
25:19
Speaker 2: plead deal and it infuriated Steve Gonzalveez. So here he
25:22
Speaker 2: doesn't have a case, but I think he was ready
25:24
Speaker 2: for it. He was using his students to get in
25:26
Speaker 2: their minds and think of covering everything. But they did
25:30
Speaker 2: know what color car he was driving, and he did
25:32
Speaker 2: leave DNA there, so it didn't work out in his favor,
25:36
Speaker 2: but the prosecution a case against them not going to
25:38
Speaker 2: work here.
25:38
Speaker 1: You know, writing about procedural injustice, and this has been
25:44
Speaker 1: uncovered now. In fact, out of thousands of pages of
25:48
Speaker 1: documents that he kept meticulously, he is essentially hatching a
25:53
Speaker 1: plot to get his plea is guilty pleate reversed. He
25:59
Speaker 1: refers to to lack of judicial oversight, blaming a judge
26:05
Speaker 1: for taking a plea that was a misguided plea. This
26:09
Speaker 1: is a real dig to Dave Mack joining US Crime
26:13
Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, a real dig at the judge claiming
26:19
Speaker 1: prosecutorial misconduct would be overlooked by the judge. And what
26:24
Speaker 1: about Dave matt claiming false guilty? Please, where people are
26:30
Speaker 1: between a rock and a hard spot. If they don't
26:32
Speaker 1: plead guilty in his case to life, then they'll get
26:35
Speaker 1: the death penalty. So therefore, what he pled to something
26:37
Speaker 1: he didn't do. That's what he's saying.
26:40
Speaker 13: That's exactly what he's saying. He's laying this out there
26:42
Speaker 13: ahead of time as to why he would plead guilty.
26:46
Speaker 13: Eye didn't have a choice. I had to because they
26:49
Speaker 13: told me if I didn't do this this was going
26:51
Speaker 13: to happen. But Nancy, you pointed out something during the
26:55
Speaker 13: hearing where the judge was actually asking very p civic questions,
27:01
Speaker 13: and for.
27:01
Speaker 4: Those of us who are not attorneys, we didn't.
27:03
Speaker 13: Quite understand why the judge was going so far with
27:07
Speaker 13: his Q and A here, And the whole point was
27:10
Speaker 13: the judge was making sure everything that Coburger was claiming
27:15
Speaker 13: would stick up so he couldn't come back later and
27:18
Speaker 13: try to pull this. It was a magnificent job by
27:21
Speaker 13: the judge in that moment, but he was obviously planning.
27:25
Speaker 13: He was going the long game here, Nancy, from the
27:27
Speaker 13: very beginning.
27:28
Speaker 1: You know another thing, Guys, you were seeing the victims
27:32
Speaker 1: that lost their lives that early early morning, in the
27:34
Speaker 1: wee hours of the morning, when Coburger entered their home
27:38
Speaker 1: stealthily expecting to find women asleep. We believed that he
27:43
Speaker 1: could rape, and instead he found them up in a
27:46
Speaker 1: live ordering door dash eating, texting, and it was literally
27:50
Speaker 1: a bloodbath. Chris mcduonn ad joining US veteran homicide detective
27:55
Speaker 1: and star of the Interview Room. Chris, this is what
27:59
Speaker 1: I would always do, and I mean for every single
28:02
Speaker 1: guilty plea I ever took. I'd swear the defendant end
28:09
Speaker 1: under oath on the Bible and make them state. I
28:14
Speaker 1: would ask questions to which they would respond, And one
28:17
Speaker 1: of them, after I swore them in, was are you
28:20
Speaker 1: entering a guilty plea today too, let's just pretend murder. Yes,
28:27
Speaker 1: And have you been promised anything or threatened with anything
28:32
Speaker 1: in order for you to plead guilty today? And they
28:35
Speaker 1: would go no. And then I would say, are you
28:39
Speaker 1: pleading guilty of your own free will without any hope
28:45
Speaker 1: of gain? Has anybody threatened you coerced you to plead
28:51
Speaker 1: guilty today? And then they would answer no, So then
28:55
Speaker 1: they're under oath. I did not hear that happen during
28:59
Speaker 1: this guilty plea? Is I mean this? If this didn't happen,
29:03
Speaker 1: I mean everybody in the county jail would walk free
29:07
Speaker 1: because they would say, oh, I was afraid I would
29:09
Speaker 1: get a worse sentence if I went to trial. I
29:11
Speaker 1: really didn't do it.
29:12
Speaker 14: Totals yeah, absolutely, Nancy, And I recall you, you know,
29:16
Speaker 14: saying exactly that when he didn't tell the story and
29:21
Speaker 14: the court let him, you know, just basically, you know,
29:25
Speaker 14: go to jail, go to prison.
29:26
Speaker 10: But here here's a really other interesting thought to dovetail
29:30
Speaker 10: in to what you're saying here. If we go back
29:32
Speaker 10: to those pictures just for a minute, just to think
29:35
Speaker 10: about the duality of this guy's personality.
29:37
Speaker 8: And look at the.
29:38
Speaker 10: One where he's at the lake where he's in the shirt,
29:41
Speaker 10: and you look at the mountain range behind him.
29:44
Speaker 1: You know, you know what that mountain range is.
29:46
Speaker 10: That's Mount Ravery Neerk And he who's famous that one
29:51
Speaker 10: right there, who's famous for that area, Ted Bundy. And
29:55
Speaker 10: if we take a look at his phone and the
29:58
Speaker 10: obsession that he had with serial killing. And there's another
30:02
Speaker 10: one here where there's a rock behind him in one
30:06
Speaker 10: side he's studying right there that one. Look at the
30:08
Speaker 10: right rock. It says slus. This guy hates women. So
30:14
Speaker 10: in one part of his personality he's projecting in his
30:18
Speaker 10: public persona, Hey, I'm going to try to get out
30:21
Speaker 10: of this. And the second real part in his hidden
30:25
Speaker 10: personality is I'm going to kill women.
30:28
Speaker 1: You know what, Chris mcdonoy, You just put chills down
30:31
Speaker 1: my spine to think this guy walking around amongst all
30:35
Speaker 1: those beautiful young co eds. I mean, it was just hunting.
30:41
Speaker 1: They were his prey and now, these writings found in
30:45
Speaker 1: one of his essays show he knows how to go
30:49
Speaker 1: about getting a guilty plea overturned. He does, He's researched it,
30:56
Speaker 1: he's written about it. And believe you me, Josh Colesrude,
31:01
Speaker 1: former assistant US attorney now criminal defense attorney. Josh. You
31:07
Speaker 1: can blood, sweat and tears, you can give it all
31:12
Speaker 1: to your client. But then when they're behind bars, you
31:16
Speaker 1: go on about your life. You go to your next client,
31:19
Speaker 1: and they're sitting there, gnashing their teeth and twisting their tail.
31:23
Speaker 1: All they have to think about behind bars is how
31:26
Speaker 1: am I going to get out of here? How am
31:29
Speaker 1: I going to get that plea reversed? That is what
31:32
Speaker 1: he is doing right now. And it doesn't matter how
31:36
Speaker 1: hard you worked or what a great job you did,
31:39
Speaker 1: you will go right down the crapper. You will. The
31:42
Speaker 1: attorney will be sacrificed with an ineffective assistance of counsel.
31:46
Speaker 1: And I heard Chris mcdonna state the judge let this
31:50
Speaker 1: plea happen. Well, yes he did, but you know you
31:53
Speaker 1: can't really stop a blind plea. But it was the
31:56
Speaker 1: prosecutor's duty to ask those questions, make sure they were
32:00
Speaker 1: asked put the defense under oath and make sure he
32:04
Speaker 1: was pleading by his own volition, not out of fear,
32:07
Speaker 1: threat or coercion. But isn't it true clients, no matter
32:11
Speaker 1: what you do for them, they will claim ineffective assistance
32:15
Speaker 1: of counsel to get out of jail. That's all he's
32:18
Speaker 1: thinking about right now. Cole's rude.
32:20
Speaker 8: That's absolutely correct.
32:21
Speaker 7: The most common appeal from a plea agreement is the IAC,
32:26
Speaker 7: the ineffective assistance of counsel claim.
32:29
Speaker 8: And what he has to.
32:31
Speaker 7: Show is that his lawyer missed something that was very obvious.
32:37
Speaker 7: It was a standard deviation from what was expected. And
32:41
Speaker 7: here I think he's going to have some difficulty because
32:45
Speaker 7: his attorney did a great job of getting him out
32:49
Speaker 7: of the death penalty. You know, that was the attorney's
32:52
Speaker 7: main motivation at the time. Also, mister Coberger under oath
32:58
Speaker 7: admitted to these So I think that his angle right
33:03
Speaker 7: here is going to be prosecutorial misconduct. He's going to
33:07
Speaker 7: say that the prosecutor hid evidence, that the prosecutor used
33:11
Speaker 7: controversial DNA technology IgG technology that was illegal, and I
33:19
Speaker 7: think that's.
33:19
Speaker 8: Going to be where his angle is going to be
33:21
Speaker 8: in this case.
33:22
Speaker 1: The plea deal, the infamous plea deal taken by the
33:26
Speaker 1: prosecutor after so much evidence, so many facts were hidden
33:32
Speaker 1: from the families. Coburger as we go to air tonight, plotting, scheming, planning,
33:38
Speaker 1: a way to get that plea reversed. What were they hiding.
33:43
Speaker 9: Just telling us our child was stabbed brutally?
33:47
Speaker 10: You know how many times?
33:48
Speaker 5: How many times? We just learned the day of or
33:52
Speaker 5: the day before the sentencing, how many times Kailee had
33:55
Speaker 5: been stabbed.
33:56
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, I am stunned because she was stabbed
34:00
Speaker 1: so many times they could not identify her, and you
34:06
Speaker 1: just learned about that when the plea was set to
34:09
Speaker 1: go down.
34:12
Speaker 5: We learned about it after the plea the day before
34:14
Speaker 5: the sentence seing guys should.
34:16
Speaker 9: Have been touched in the face. He was a creep
34:17
Speaker 9: and he's a disgusting creeple he is a creep.
34:20
Speaker 1: State away from him, anti woman, misogynist, stalking behavior thirteen
34:27
Speaker 1: and flanks where he would intimidate for stalk female students,
34:32
Speaker 1: and so much more. Tonight, are their more victims emerging?
34:39
Speaker 1: If we're hearing about these victims, how many other victims
34:43
Speaker 1: are out there? And what is the severity of what
34:46
Speaker 1: happened to them? Joining me in allstar peal makes sense
34:49
Speaker 1: of what we are learning to. Women tell police they
34:53
Speaker 1: suspect Coburger was stalking them while he was at Washington
34:58
Speaker 1: State University. Straight out to Susan Hendrix, these women state
35:03
Speaker 1: that they spotted Coburger at their employment over and over
35:08
Speaker 1: and over, to the point other coworkers would warn them,
35:12
Speaker 1: he's here, he's here. Then one of them goes home.
35:17
Speaker 1: She is semi nude changing clothes, and someone comes to
35:22
Speaker 1: her window and either taps on the window or hits
35:25
Speaker 1: the window, and she realizes someone's watching her. And I'm
35:29
Speaker 1: going to go to you in just a second, Chris McDonough,
35:32
Speaker 1: that's Chris mcdonna. I have and I have looked at
35:34
Speaker 1: the scene over and over, and that's exactly what Coburger
35:37
Speaker 1: was doing here, and he had a great vantage point
35:39
Speaker 1: to stare into the girl's bedroom windows. But not only that.
35:42
Speaker 1: One of them has a husband, and during one of
35:45
Speaker 1: these stalking episodes, the husband comes home and sees a
35:48
Speaker 1: white car speeding away similar to Brian Coburger's. So we
35:54
Speaker 1: know there are other victims. Tell me about these two.
35:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a clear pattern here. One of the
35:59
Speaker 2: students worked at the university bookstore. He went in. She
36:04
Speaker 2: never gave him her name, and he called her by name.
36:07
Speaker 2: He was obviously looking into who she was and would
36:10
Speaker 2: just stare at her. Another one worked in the criminology department,
36:14
Speaker 2: and she said she caught eye contact with him out
36:16
Speaker 2: of her window, which means he was staring directly in.
36:19
Speaker 2: She ran and hid in the bathroom. She even went
36:22
Speaker 2: to Brian Coberger and said, I'm Leslian, there's nothing that's
36:25
Speaker 2: going to happen here. Didn't deter him. This was happening
36:28
Speaker 2: over and over again, and I believe he was looking
36:31
Speaker 2: for someone to murder and he found that sadly on
36:34
Speaker 2: King Road. But I remember Steve Gonzalez telling you, Nancy,
36:37
Speaker 2: that there were red flags everywhere with this guy, thirteen
36:40
Speaker 2: incidents that they knew.
36:41
Speaker 1: Of, and the school, Washington State did nothing. Could you retail.
36:45
Speaker 1: Very slowly they encounter where the woman, the victim, saw
36:51
Speaker 1: him looking at her through the window and she ran
36:55
Speaker 1: and hid in the bathroom.
36:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was in the classroom and she could feel,
36:59
Speaker 2: you know when you feel someone kind of staring at you,
37:01
Speaker 2: and looked at him, made eye contact looking out the window.
37:04
Speaker 2: And she said the only way that that would occur
37:08
Speaker 2: is if he was looking directly where she was. I
37:11
Speaker 2: believe she was the target here. Then she sees him
37:14
Speaker 2: come in the building and she runs and hides in
37:16
Speaker 2: the bathroom. That's how threatening she thought he was, that
37:20
Speaker 2: she had to hide. There are people, Maybe you don't
37:22
Speaker 2: want to see it work. And he said, oh, you
37:24
Speaker 2: don't run and hide in the bathroom. And you mentioned
37:28
Speaker 2: the husband. There were footprints up to that window, and
37:31
Speaker 2: she said it was clear, or her husband said it
37:34
Speaker 2: was clear. That he kind of backed away because there
37:36
Speaker 2: was only one set of footprints. And one of the
37:39
Speaker 2: women said this, Nancy, it's so pressing that nothing seemed
37:42
Speaker 2: to deter him. He wasn't bothered by.
37:44
Speaker 1: Rejection crime stories with Nancy Gray Dotter Sherry Schwartz joining
37:56
Speaker 1: US forensic psychologist author Offware, a law and psychology intersect,
38:02
Speaker 1: Doctor Sherry, I've had so many cases. This is anik Jodel.
38:08
Speaker 1: I don't have a statistic where it would be. I'd
38:11
Speaker 1: be prosecuting a rape or a murder, maybe a serial rape,
38:16
Speaker 1: and I would look back in the suspect's history, way
38:19
Speaker 1: back way back. I would find peeping tom and it
38:25
Speaker 1: happens so often that I started talking to people in
38:27
Speaker 1: the office, you know, the few people that I confided
38:30
Speaker 1: in there. Have you noticed that so many of these
38:34
Speaker 1: murder perps and or rape perpse have been peeping Tom's
38:39
Speaker 1: It's just the beginning. That's one thing I want to
38:42
Speaker 1: throw at you, But first I want to explore what
38:44
Speaker 1: Susan Hendricks just said. Gosh, this is reminding me so
38:49
Speaker 1: much a trying cases, because before I would put say
38:51
Speaker 1: you on the stand, I would meet with you ad
38:54
Speaker 1: nauseum to figure out what it all meant. When someone
39:00
Speaker 1: a grown lady young in her twenties, but still a
39:04
Speaker 1: grown lady runs and hides. This woman is not fanciful.
39:11
Speaker 1: She's got a job, she's going to school, she's running household.
39:15
Speaker 1: She ran and hid from Coburger. She ran in the bathroom,
39:19
Speaker 1: shut the door and locked it. That's an instinct. That's
39:24
Speaker 1: why we are alive today, because we have instincts and
39:28
Speaker 1: we act on them. Why did this young lady see
39:34
Speaker 1: Coburger and run and hide in the bathroom.
39:37
Speaker 6: Well, she either had prior interactions with him, or saw
39:42
Speaker 6: him around, or something about that particular interaction, which is
39:47
Speaker 6: completely nonverbal. Something told her her instinct, her fight or
39:51
Speaker 6: flight response said flee, get out, go hide. This is
39:55
Speaker 6: somebody who has the potential to cause you danger and
39:59
Speaker 6: these are things that she and be underestimated when people
40:01
Speaker 6: have reactions like that.
40:02
Speaker 1: And of course, just Cole's rude, your veteran trial lawyer,
40:06
Speaker 1: this incident may or may not have come into trial
40:10
Speaker 1: as a similar transaction, but it speaks to me. It
40:15
Speaker 1: means something to me that this woman, other women were
40:19
Speaker 1: so instinctively afraid of coburger they would hide. Just wait
40:27
Speaker 1: till I tell you about what a mother hen did
40:30
Speaker 1: in the criminal procedure department at WSU. Just wait, you're
40:36
Speaker 1: gonna freak. But that means something. But it would never
40:39
Speaker 1: have come into evidence, would it? In a nutshell calls rude?
40:42
Speaker 8: Well, and you're absolutely right, Nancy.
40:45
Speaker 7: In violent cases, judges do allow sometimes some type of
40:52
Speaker 7: character evidence. And what this could show is a pattern
40:57
Speaker 7: or a pattern evidence that could go towards motive later on,
41:02
Speaker 7: that this defendant was learning how to be a predator.
41:07
Speaker 7: He was learning how to case female victims, how to
41:13
Speaker 7: hide his tracks, how to target certain female victims. However,
41:19
Speaker 7: the evidence has cannot be unserved for judicial which is
41:26
Speaker 7: what the argument would be in this case.
41:28
Speaker 12: A Washington State University faculty member says her maternal instinct
41:32
Speaker 12: took over when she wouldn't allow a female student to
41:35
Speaker 12: be left alone in an office on campus with Coburger.
41:38
Speaker 12: She keeps herself busy until he left, and says it
41:40
Speaker 12: wasn't anything specific about his behavior that prompted a response,
41:44
Speaker 12: it was just a feeling she had at the time.
41:47
Speaker 12: After Coberger left, she told the student to email her
41:50
Speaker 12: with the subject line nine to one one if she
41:52
Speaker 12: ever needed help.
41:54
Speaker 1: J Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Chanital State University.
41:58
Speaker 1: A faculty was so concerned about Coburger stalking this particular
42:04
Speaker 1: and I've got look at this. All of these are
42:08
Speaker 1: other instances of him scaring women, but this one. A
42:12
Speaker 1: faculty member was so concerned that she told the girl
42:16
Speaker 1: just text me nine on one if he comes back.
42:19
Speaker 1: Look that is grounded in something. All of these women
42:22
Speaker 1: are not hysterical. And you remember that other home invasion
42:27
Speaker 1: they have not yet attributed to Coburger, which leads me too,
42:31
Speaker 1: this is not a quantum leap of faith. What else
42:34
Speaker 1: is out there? What else is out there?
42:38
Speaker 4: Nancy? I'm in my twenty first year of academia this year.
42:41
Speaker 4: And let me tell you something. When you're in an environment,
42:45
Speaker 4: in an academic environment, and you have freshmen that are
42:47
Speaker 4: coming in, returning sophomores, juniors, and certainly those that are
42:51
Speaker 4: about to graduate, they are the most vulnerable when it
42:55
Speaker 4: comes to a faculty member. And look, I know he
42:58
Speaker 4: was a TA, but he's been given charge over these individuals,
43:02
Speaker 4: over these students, to instruct them. Nancy, I submit to
43:06
Speaker 4: you that this whole game about the PhD thing, this
43:11
Speaker 4: is a means to an end. He saw this as
43:13
Speaker 4: shooting fish in a barrel because he knew that he
43:16
Speaker 4: would have instantaneous access to some of the most vulnerable people,
43:21
Speaker 4: those that want a degree, those that want to be
43:23
Speaker 4: successful in the university. He could do and say anything
43:27
Speaker 4: to them because he perceived himself as having power. And
43:30
Speaker 4: it's a terrible situation to send your kids to the
43:35
Speaker 4: university and have a monster like this in this environment.
43:40
Speaker 4: And let me tell you one more thing if you
43:41
Speaker 4: like that one. I think that WSU got hoodwinked into
43:46
Speaker 4: hiring this guy. That's what I really think. I don't
43:48
Speaker 4: think they did a deep dive on his background at all.
43:52
Speaker 4: And you know, you think about the position that this
43:56
Speaker 4: university put these kids in because they gave him charge
44:01
Speaker 4: over these kids. Hadn't it Hadn't it ever struck you
44:05
Speaker 4: as odd that he didn't get along with his supervisors.
44:08
Speaker 4: You know why, because his purpose was not to be
44:10
Speaker 4: there as an academic. His purpose was to be there
44:14
Speaker 4: as a predator, Nancy, you know.
44:16
Speaker 1: Following up on that, Chris McDonough joining me, former homicide detective.
44:20
Speaker 1: I don't know if you or if anybody on the
44:22
Speaker 1: panel ever had this experience, but over and over and
44:25
Speaker 1: over and over, I would see cases that had morphed,
44:28
Speaker 1: had graduated into rape, serial rate and or murder where
44:33
Speaker 1: it all started with a freak peeping Tom. He would
44:36
Speaker 1: be a Peeping Tom and it would be dismissed. Peeping
44:38
Speaker 1: Tom paid twenty five dollars Peeping Tom order violation, citation,
44:42
Speaker 1: and it would go suddenly. It would be more and
44:46
Speaker 1: more serious until it culminated and landed as an indictment
44:49
Speaker 1: on my desk to prosecute. Have you ever noticed that
44:52
Speaker 1: starting with Peeping Tom?
44:53
Speaker 10: Yeah, absolutely, that voyeurism in of itself is the fuel
44:59
Speaker 10: that helped fan the fantasy. And remember Nancy when we
45:05
Speaker 10: were there. And if you look at this, I mean,
45:07
Speaker 10: this picture right here tells us everything we need to know.
45:10
Speaker 10: The intensity of this particular picture. This is the intensity
45:15
Speaker 10: that he is operating with while voyeurism. And if we
45:19
Speaker 10: think about the fuel that he is now operating on,
45:23
Speaker 10: it's all of that intense non consensual pornography. And think
45:28
Speaker 10: about that him sitting in the backyard of those four kids'
45:33
Speaker 10: house and has a fish bowl type of view. And
45:39
Speaker 10: that's why I have always been fascinated by that one
45:42
Speaker 10: cylinder block underneath the window of the back bedroom at
45:47
Speaker 10: that house. I saw him in my mind through my experience,
45:52
Speaker 10: just sitting there and just waiting for those kids to
45:55
Speaker 10: fall asleep and then his fantasy starts to play out,
46:00
Speaker 10: because that's what was driving him.
46:01
Speaker 1: And you're right, Chris mcdonah, he wanted sleeping slash comatose
46:05
Speaker 1: women to rate based on his own computer searches. All
46:12
Speaker 1: of this kept away from the victim's family. This and
46:16
Speaker 1: more tonight Coburger behind bars plotting his jailhouse exit. Legally,
46:26
Speaker 1: listen to what Steve and Christy gounsolve Is say about
46:30
Speaker 1: this plea deal.
46:31
Speaker 9: For me, it was outrage because my daughter was fighting
46:33
Speaker 9: up to her very last breath.
46:35
Speaker 1: Over and over.
46:35
Speaker 9: She kept trying to get out of that bed and
46:37
Speaker 9: he was just drilling her. And she's fighting for her
46:41
Speaker 9: last breath. And I got this old Santa Claus who's
46:44
Speaker 9: just thrown out of White Towl, just saying, oh, let's
46:46
Speaker 9: just make it all go away.
46:48
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,