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Public Speaking · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to why we do what we do, So like,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I am your nervous talking in front of people host Abraham.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Ah Hey, and I am your definitely picturing you naked
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: host Shane.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Oh Man. I forgot to actually say we're why we
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: do what we do. We are a psychology podcast. We
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: talk about the things that people do and why they
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: do them, and right now we're talking about being naked.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I guess actually we're talking about public speaking. But we
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: talk about all the things that humans have to experience,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: sometimes the good, sometimes the bad, sometimes the ugly, sometimes animals.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Those are the things that we tackle on this show.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: In case you're joining us for the first time, Welcome,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: We are so happy to have you here. We typically
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: release these full length episodes every Wednesday, and then we've
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: been really we've seen these little short mini episodes on
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Mondays that are just a little dive into a topic
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: of some sort that is interesting and that we feel
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: we can cover in like fifteen minutes.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, so we are stoked to talk about public speaking
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: because both of us have had the opportunity to do
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: public speaking in one way or another. I do a
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: lot of it as part of my job, right now.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you did more than me.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Now it's something that I never thought that I would
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: be willing or able to do. And so here we
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: are unpacking what that looks like and why why this
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: is something that can do now.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: And as I said, if you are joining us for
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: the first time, we're so happy to have you here.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: If you end up liking what you hear today and
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: would like to support us, you can go over and
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: join us on Patreon, join the club and get extra stuff.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: You can pick up some merch at our merch store.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: You can leave us a rating, a nice five stars
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: or whatever you think is appropriate five stars. You can
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: also leave us a review, and of course you can
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: go talk to somebody. But we will talk more about
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: how you can support us at the end of today's discussion. Yes,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I also like to wish you before we dive into
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: our topic. A National Dream Destination Day.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also Roast Dinner Day.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: In National hug A Musician day. Does a podcast as
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: a musician probably not.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Well, we're both musicians as well as podcasters, so you
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: can hust if you like, I mean, with consent. Of course,
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: It's World Kindness Day. Love that so much.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Makes a lot of sense. It is National Indian Pudding Day,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: yum yay.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: It is Sadie Hawkins Day, whoever that is.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: It is symphonic metal Day, as in heavy metal. So yeah,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: go live the symphonic heavy metal life.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Go listen to dragon Force or Sonata Arctica or Blood
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: Incantation or Hammerfall or whatever. Go listen to all of it.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Symphony X.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Somebody is gonna email us and be like, pammer Fall
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: is a power metal band. They're not. They're not a
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: symphonic metal band. Shut up. It's fine. Go listen to metal,
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: all right. I'm sorry, I don't I don't mean to
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: get confrontational. Yeah, anyway, It's National Recycling Week. Good. I
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: love that so much.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Indeed, it is the Cairo Film International Festival. In Cairo
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: International Film Festival. I said that backwards week. So if
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: you are there and listening to this, I am quite impressed.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Email let us know about that because that would be fun.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: But if not, then you're hearing us later. Then I
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: hope you had a great Cairo International Film Festival.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. It's Anti Bullying Week or anti bullying Week,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: depending on how you say anti or anti.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and whether or not you're related to the bullying,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: because then it might be Auntie if they're.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Like you're or you're bullying Seer's antister.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that too is Worldwide Bereaved Sibling Month. E yankes.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's rough. On a better note, it is
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: Sweet Potato Awareness Month.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Sure they're sweet potatoes. I'm aware now. It is spinish
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: and squash month. Makes a lot of sense. You know,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: we're we're getting into food holidays here.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Gordon season. You know, it's a prematurity awareness month.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's National raisin bread Month. Interesting, it's National pep month,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: like that National Peanut butter Lovers Month. All right, so
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: this is great and yeah and us both of us. Yeah,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: that's for us. And then it's also woop be Goldberg's birthday.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: So go watch the movie, the one where she's a
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: cop with a t rex. Go watch that one.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, it's fun fair enough. I doesn't say ghost.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: Ghost is good. Yeah, sister act is fine.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Sure, Sure, there's a few to choose from, but it's
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: her birthday, so happy birthday. I actually think that this
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: month might have more holidays than I have ever seen
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: a month have. There's a lot I mean month long holidays, specifically,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: like it's this month, whatever it is, as we said,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: like National Raisin Bread Month. There's so many, there's so
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: many it's crazy. So we listened just a handful. If
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: you're interested in more, go check them out. Because we're
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: not actually a advent calendar podcast, much as it sounds
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: like we might be. We are a psychology podcast. As
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: I talked about and as we build boarded up front,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: we are in fact talking about public speaking in today's discussion,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: and specifically a few things about public speaking. We're going
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: to talk about why it is so scary to many,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: if not most people, research on how to improve your
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: public speaking, and then how to become a better public speaker.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: That'll be sort of the narrative arc we follow in
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: this discussion.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: I like that, so I guess maybe start with what
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: public speaking is, right, So, public speaking is delivering any
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  Speaker 2: kind of speech to a live audience, usually one who
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: is specifically present to receive some presentation. So live in
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: this case does not necessarily mean that the audience is
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: physically present. The audience could be virtual but present at
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: the time that the speaker is presenting, so it could
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: be synchronous or it's synchronous. I guess is maybe the
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: thing there is an audience available to interact with you
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: at that moment, whether it's online or in person.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's very possible that someone could get a
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: similar level of nervousness if they're presenting in front of
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: no one, knowing that eventually they'll have an audience. But
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't find much on that specifically in this discussion,
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: and I feel like in most of the cases that's
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: not as big of a block for most people. Although
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: there is an aspect of the delivery of the performance
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  Speaker 1: that we will talk about that is related to that, sure,
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  Speaker 1: But an important piece of this here is that there is,
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  Speaker 1: in fact an audience. People don't usually get nervous when
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: they're talking to themselves in a closed room that's not
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  Speaker 1: being recorded, So the audience piece is important. And what's
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: also important further is that when we're talking about an
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  Speaker 1: audience from the perspective of public speaking, this does not
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  Speaker 1: mean a person you're having a conversation with. Just talking
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  Speaker 1: one on one with someone in a normal dynamic, back
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  Speaker 1: and forth conversation is not really the same experience that
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: we have when we're presenting in front of a crowd. Instead,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: we're usually talking about an audience that is mostly passively
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: receiving the presentation. And usually in these cases, you're the
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: only one doing the talking and they're not right right,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: or at least you're doing most of the talking. Oftentimes
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: you might be sharing the stage or the presentation with
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  Speaker 1: another person, but it's not a conversation. It is a
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: delivery of a monologue of some sort or maybe a
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: dialogue or Yeah, at least you'll have a turn in
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: which you are the only person talking for some portion
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  Speaker 1: of that where again, you're talking to a group, You're
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: not necessarily having a conversation.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: I have a question for you real quick, before we
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: go too much further. You and I have had both
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: had the experience of playing in a live band in
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  Speaker 2: front of a crowded room, as well as doing public
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  Speaker 2: speaking by ourselves as well as doing public speaking with
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  Speaker 2: a group of people. So do you have any sort
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  Speaker 2: of feeling one way or another about which one is
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  Speaker 2: more nerve racking than the other.
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  Speaker 1: I think the most nervous I ever was was related
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  Speaker 1: to giving a presentation in front of a group of people. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: I definitely was nervous performing like playing music but less so.
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  Speaker 1: I don't think I ever was as nervous playing music
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  Speaker 1: as I was preparing to do a speech or some
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  Speaker 1: kind of presentation.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think I had the same feeling. And
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  Speaker 2: I was kind of thinking about this because I was
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: kind of like, I didn't think that I would ever
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  Speaker 2: be a public speaker, but I performed in bands for
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: years and years and years, and so it's a very
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: different experience, though it is, Yeah, and we can unpack that.
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  Speaker 2: But maybe the difference is like you're on stage with
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: a group of people performing as well, so like at
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  Speaker 2: the very least you can share that embarrassment often. So yeah,
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  Speaker 2: so I don't know anyway, we'll unpack that. More so.
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  Speaker 2: Social fears are commonly included in the top ten most
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  Speaker 2: common fears. It broadly includes a variety of social interactions,
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  Speaker 2: but does include a fear of public speaking, if not
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  Speaker 2: directly a phobia. Most people, children and adults are at
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  Speaker 2: least uncomfortable giving presentations or giving public speeches of some kind.
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  Speaker 1: And again that's most people. That won't be every single person,
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  Speaker 1: but most people tend to report this experience, and often
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  Speaker 1: it gets worse with age, but certainly it can get better.
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  Speaker 1: Just a lot of people. Everyone's everyone's different, but it
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  Speaker 1: is super super super common. It is a thing that
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  Speaker 1: people report having some amount of nervousness, anxiety, or fear around. Right.
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  Speaker 1: So there's a fun a couple of fun pop culture
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: references I thought i'd throw in here. One of them
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: is a bit older. On the US adapted version of
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: the TV show The Office, there's a point at which
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  Speaker 1: the character Dwight is supposed to give some acceptance speech
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  Speaker 1: for an award, and to try and mess with him,
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  Speaker 1: Jim gives him a bunch of dictators speeches as like
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: archetypes of how to deliver a speech, and he's still
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  Speaker 1: so nervous that instead, the boss, Michael Scott, goes up
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  Speaker 1: and performs and tries to do a comedy routine that
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: bombs pretty terribly, but eventually Dwight sort of runs up
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  Speaker 1: to the microphone and takes over. So that was one.
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  Speaker 1: Did you ever see The Office or see that clip?
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: Yes? I love that one so much. That one is
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: so funny.
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  Speaker 1: It's very funny. And then there's another one on the
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  Speaker 1: TV show New Girl in which the character Nick played
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: by Jake Johnson, he's supposed to do a reading in
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  Speaker 1: front of this there's only like seven people in the audience.
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  Speaker 1: He gets so nervous he pretends that someone's calling his
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: name off stage and then asks the entire audience to
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: just turn around and look at the back of the room,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: and they won't listen to him, like so that they're
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: facing away from him, and so then he's like, oh,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: did you want And then he just walks off stage
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: and crawls into a little toy like playhouse on the
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: end of the room that's immediately adjacent to where he was.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: That everyone can sort ofcy where he's at right anyway,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: point being a common relatable experience of being afraid of
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  Speaker 1: sort of doing this in person presentation of a thing
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  Speaker 1: to other people.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, nevertheless, public speaking can be an important aspect
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: of many careers and professions, especially if you are a
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: researcher who's presenting new findings. Yeah, if you are a
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: trainer that is working in a space where you are
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: training people on new information, absolutely so much that public
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: speaking it's described as crucial for career advancement. A lot
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: of people expect to see this on CVS conference presentations
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: and whatnot. The job matching company indeed that emphasize the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: importance of public speaking as a skill for job applicants
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  Speaker 2: and for a lot of different jobs.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and even related to just going in for
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: your first interview, they sort of make the case that
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: at least having some experience with public speaking might help
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: you just present yourself a little better in that interview.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: But even beyond the role that public speaking might play
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: in employment and job seeking and that sort of thing
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: and career advancement, it can be just a good skill
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: to have. And so indeed, and some other websites have
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: sort of a list of reasons why public speaking can
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: be beneficial, and so a couple of them include it
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: allows you to share your ideas with others. So you
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: just get to like what things that you're thinking. They
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: get to go out in front of an audience. Maybe
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: you have come up with a clever solution to some problem.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: You can present that solution to that problem to a
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: lot of people who then can they can benefit from that.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: They can use your solution to go out and solve
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: their own problems, and they sort of get to the
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: benefit of your wisdom and experiences.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Right. It also helps you develop leadership qualities, so when
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: you are working with a group of people, to be
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: able to communicate with them, disseminate them, give the disseminate
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: to them, I should say, give them direction on a
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: particular project or an initiative that you're working on. It
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: can improve your research skills when you prepare for speaking
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: engagements so you can actually go back and when you
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: have your bullet points, you have references, unlike a particular
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: presidential candidate that we saw in the debates in one
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: particular debate that did not have any bullet points and
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: references and all that stuff like, you need to be
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: able to research. And also it can improve your critical
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: thinking skills. So sometimes you might be required to think
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: on the fly. You might be able to or be
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: required to answer questions on the fly. You might have
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: to learn how to synthesize information and put it together,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: to put it into a coherent thought and a coherent presentation.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: So a lot of those critical thinking skills really apply
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: here too well.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: And you also, as far as critical thinking goes, you
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: have to be able to try and anticipate what are
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: the kinds of questions and contradictions that I might run
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: into from the audience, Like they're going to come up
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: and say I don't believe that because this or what
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: about this thing? And you want to also be able
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: to try and anticipate the kinds of things where you
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: might say something and then someone's going to ask for
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: your reference for that, like how do you back that up?
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: So you start thinking as you're doing your preparation, how
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: do I best plan for and think about where I
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: could be getting this wrong? And then you do that,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: you go like as part of your research, you start
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: and so it just improves your critical thinking by looking
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: for flaws and holes in the arguments that you might
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: be making because someone might call you out on that, right, right,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: So there is this aspect of it. And so in
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: part of that then is this can improve your overall
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: communication skills because you have to again think about how
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: to deliver this information, how to organize the information, how
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: to say it in a way that is clearly heard,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: and to articulate it in a way that it can
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: be clearly heard. And relatedly, because there's this aspect where
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: you have an audience who's reacting to or at least
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: receiving the presentation you're giving, it can help build these
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: social connections. This is an opportunity to like, you've got
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: these wild ideas and you think that you're really right,
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: and then you say them in front of a group
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: of people and they start challenging those That is a
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: good thing. Like, that's part of the beauty of our
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: social network is that we challenge each other. We listen
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: to what someone's argument is and then we think, like,
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: how does that change my opinion about this thing? Do
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: I think that they're right? Can I suggest to them
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: where they might be getting it wrong? Can I hear
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: feedback that my rebuttal to them is also wrong?
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: And so like, there's this whole social connection piece of
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: it that I think is also important and useful.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: And this also improves your persuasion skills to be able
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: to actually convince people of your point and make coherent
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: arguments that are linear and not just weaving. You can
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: actually help motivate people where you know you're a par
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: king to not only just a motion, but to their
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: values and being able to motivate people to kind of
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, I just sat and listened to a public
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: talk where I got involved with my state organization for
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: behavior analysis. I was like, he makes a compelling argument.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I'm going to reach out and so I'm getting involved
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: in that too.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: Which is great.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: They can also do a couple of things too, like
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: increase your vocabulary. The more you talk, the more you
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: learn words, the better those words are, the better your
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: vocabulary gets. And it can increase your confidence too. So
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: the more successful you are in those public speaking spaces,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: the more that you get accolades and praise and stuff
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: like that, it does help boost your confidence a little
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: bit and make you feel a little bit positive about
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: the way you feel about yourself.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: And even if you don't get a lot of specific recognition,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: just doing it over and over can at least dampen
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: the experience of fears. So it's like you're more confident
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: just because you're less afraid, just because you've done it
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: so many times, even if no one's telling you necessarily
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: that you've done a great job, although they someone probably
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: will no matter how poor a job you do, as
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: evidenced again by some notable speakers in our zeitgeist, and
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: for many of us, maybe not all of us, but
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: for many of us, it can help increase your self
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: awareness of how you are perceived by your audience because
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: you are getting that feedback you might see yourself recorded
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: delivering this presentation, and you learn from that what you
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: sound like to other people, and that helps then tailor
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: how you choose to sound to other people. So it's
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: just like there's that aspect as well, the feedback portion
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: of this. Right, absolutely all right, So we I think
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: are extolling the virtues of public speaking. I do think
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: it's important to set the caveat that you can get
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: good to all of those things without doing the public
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: speaking route. That is just some benefits that may be
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: afforded to some people when they get good at public speaking,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: But you can certainly become proficient at those things without
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: doing a lot of public speaking. But we also think
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: there are some benefits to public speaking. So if that's
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: a route you choose to go, those might be some
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: things you can learn about for public speaking. But what
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: if you're too afraid to even get started public speaking
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: because of the ads. Well, hopefully the ads didn't stop you,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: but you might still be really nervous. Maybe you're thinking,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I wish I could be a good public speaker, but
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I'm too a scared, I'm too scared of this, too scared.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Let's say you have a fear of public speaking, which
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: many people do. The fear of public speaking is called glossophobia.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Fear of public speaking, whether or not it's diagnosable, often
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: leads to avoidance of public speaking, which can actually prevent
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: development of all those benefits we just listed, and it
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: also can create a lot of distress for people that
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: do have the public speak. So like you might not
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: be able to avoid it, but it does cause a
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: lot of like psychological unrest if you will, around the
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: having to do the public speaking thing.
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: One thing you probably know, but just in case you
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: might not know. I don't know. I don't know what
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: you know. Maybe you know this, maybe you don't. But
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I think something that some people don't necessarily think about
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: is that even people who do commonly present, who present
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: themselves as confident, competent, and good at public speaking, they
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: will actually still report feeling some nervousness, feeling some butterflies
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: when they're presenting or just before they're presenting. And so
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: it's like even people who do this, we look at
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: those people and they walk out on stage and they
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: deliver their speech, many of them they do feel just
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: as comfortable as they look, but there are also still
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: some of them who still get a little bit of
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: nervousness beforehand, they get a little bit of those butterflies.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean I still do I do this.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: I've done this one hundred times, right, So, like, I
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: still get nervous whenever I present. Like many fears, sometimes
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: the anticipation is the part during which we are the
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: most nervous and uncomfortable. But once we get started, the
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: fear can slowly melt away. We get comfortable, we kind
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: of ease into that situation, and we can we can
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: move forward pretty fluently.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: That's been my experience. I know that's not everybody's. Like
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: some people it will they'll be nervous the whole entire time.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: But my experience is once you're in it, you're actually
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: doing the speech, the presentation, the delivery, the fear just
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: kind of just melts away. Yeah, it's not like it
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: just turns off. It just diminishes to the point where
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: it's kind of background noise at best. Right. Absolutely, Now,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: as we have discussed repeatedly and recently, when afraid, your
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: whole autonomic nervous system kicks in, and there's a bunch
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: of effects that come along with this. This is one
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: of the things that people get afraid of when they're
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: public speaking is perspiration. You start to sweat, you look hot,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Hell yeah you do. You start might start breathing heavily,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: so then you're breathing into the microphone. You're like, next
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Poin're not gonna make it. And that could be pretty
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: obvious that you feel that way. You actually will get
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: a sort of sudden increase in your energy, so you
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: again start moving around a little bit. You might even
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: shake a little because you feel your muscles tense. As
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: part of it, your pupils dilate, your heart rate increases.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: These are these autonomic experiences we have when we're in
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: situations where we're feeling afraid, and so they manifest that way.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: You see the physical version of that, and that is
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: the thing that people also are afraid of, is they're
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: how they physically appear. That being said, it's much less
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: obvious most of the time than you think it is. Yeah,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I mean sometimes it's obvious, but typically it's way less
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: obvious than you think it is.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And if you're aware of it, you can
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: usually like catch it or like, like I noticed like
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: if I'm nervous, I probably talk too fast, and so
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: then I catch that I'm talking too fast because I'm like, WHOA,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: I said that really quickly, and I need to like
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: take a breath or a slow down.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: So I think both of us speak quickly. I definitely
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: speak very very quickly. As a matter of fact, someone
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: recently told me that listening to me talk is like
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: listening to an audio book on times two speed. But
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: that's funny. That has nothing to do with me being
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: nervous or afraid. It is all about efficiency, baby, And
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: there is an element of I had a long history
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: of being constantly interrupted. Still do that still happens, And
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: so part of it was get my point out so
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: fast that they can't interrupt me. Sure, I'm working on
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: trying to slow down because it does make it difficult
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: to understand me when I'm speaking that quickly. And I
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: really love listening to fast speech. I love it. I
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: prefer it so much. Someone speaking at times to speed
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: is ma jam. So that's just how I sort of roll. Yeah,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: I hear you. I'm there with you now.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: People may not always be able to articulate what it
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: is they're afraid of in these types of public speaking spaces,
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: but it can include worrying about making a mistake, which
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: people do worry about, worrying about being perceived as boring,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: worried about losing your train of thought, worried about coming
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: across as incompetent, worry about adverse reactions from the crowd,
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: like heckling, disagreements, booing, people falling asleep, people leaving, people
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: ignoring you, people not laughing at your jokes. All of
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: those things have happened to me, by the way, right,
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: worry about presenting the people who have a higher status
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: happened clout or educational degrees, and experiencing you worry about
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: when you are being evaluated by the audience or some
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: other contextual feature of the situation like high stakes, like
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: for example, when presenting for grade in a class, an
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: important project, pitch to your boss, or when proposing or
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: defending your thesis or dissertation. All of those are reasonable
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: concerns in that situation, right, Like, these are things that
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: people do worry about for lots of different reasons, and
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: it's very complex, and people have very complex learning histories
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: around all of these things, and so I think it's
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: really important to keep that in mind as we go forward.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: To I think proposing and defending my thesis and dissertation
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: was maybe the most nervous I have ever felt during
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: one of those types of presentations where I felt my
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: heart pounding through my ribcage.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think that that was pretty nerve wracking. I
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: think the first conference presentation I did, I was very nervous,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: nerve wracking. Same and I would say the first time
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I was keynote was really nerve wracking because it was
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: there's a lot more pressure to be like, oh right,
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: like you're the only talk at this time, and everybody
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: that's at this conference is in this room, like literally
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: everybody that's at this conference. I went, oh, okay, it was great.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: They're all here for you.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're all here because there's nothing else to do
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: at the conference right now. Like there's literally not like
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: literally people who would not want to see you are
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: sitting here watching you because there's nothing else to do
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: with this conference.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: They have to be Yeah, my recollection is my first
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: presentation was I think I was supposed to talk for
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. I think I was done in like seven minutes. Yeah, yeah,
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: say what's on the slide, move on, and just don't
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: take any time with it at all.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: That's my first conference presentation. I had fifteen minutes. I
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: did it in thirty.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Well yeah, uh huh, who okay, good times. One
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: of the reasons here, So we're talking about fear right now,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: we're talking around the fear of public speaking, what people
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: are afraid of, why they're afraid. And one of the
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: really important things to understand about public speaking is that
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: public speaking is very different from our sort of normal
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: one on one conversational speaking, which is how most of
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: us spend our Like we use our language most of
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: the time, we spend most of our lives talking one
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: on one or in small groups with people where there's
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: an exchange, and instead, during public speaking, we're the only
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: ones talking, and usually for an extended period of time.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: And so part of it is that public speaking is
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: just experientially very different from our normal social interactions. Right
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: We're often making prepared remarks, trying to educate or persuade
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: our audience of something. And furthermore, we are figuratively or
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: even literally in the spotlight, and all eyes and attention
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: are on us, and sometimes in those instances we also
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: can't even really see our audience very well. And the
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: point of all of this that I'm saying is to
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: distinguish it clearly from the overwhelming majority of the experiences
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: that we have when we're interacting with people socially and
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: we're using our language, we're talking to another person's face
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: or another couple of people, and they're talking back to us.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: There's a back and forth and standing in front of
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: a group of people where you are expected to be
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: the only one making sound right and everyone else just
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: kind of receives that where you have to talk for
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: like an extended period of time rather than sharing your story,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: your idea, you're part of the conversation, and then the
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: next person chimes in. That's just really different. It's really different,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and so it feels very different, and we behave then
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: with respect to it in a different way, and it's
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: fearful because it's so new and so different from how
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: we're used to experiencing these social interactions. Right.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: So, in summary, public speaking is contextually different from our
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: typical social interactions for most of us, and this means
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: it is at the very least uncomfortable for most of us.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: And you know what's really interesting about this, I have
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: learned personally that I tend to be a better public
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: speaker when I am talking like myself, Like I don't
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: prepare a lot. When I'm talking off the cuff and
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: I'm talking like I talk conversationally, I tend to be
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: way less nervous than if I have to prepare something
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: and speak in a certain manner or tone or use
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: certain vocabulary. I've learned that, like, oh, I just talk
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: like myself, and I am way better at this.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Well, it's easier to listen to. I think it's easier
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: to hear someone who feels like it's almost like they're
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: having a conversation with you, Like that's a really good
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: presenting as you hear them, and you're like with it
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: the whole time because it feels like you're participating, and
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: even though you don't really get a turn to speak,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: like someone who's talking comfortably as themselves, I think present
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: really nicely. And I think that's not a piece of
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: the advice that I had given, but I'm really glad
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: you included it because it's definitely true.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Now, we are not born being afraid to present publicly.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: We're just not. We learn this fear like nearly all
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: other fears that we have, just because you're afraid right now.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Doesn't mean it is a part of who you are
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: as a person unless you want it to be. This
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: is something that you become good at with some general
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: tips and strategies, which we will get to here in
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: a moment. But whether or not public speaking is a
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: fear people commonly struggle with giving a clear, concise, effective
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: presentation without filling the space with throat clearing, lip smacking,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: or these other sort of quote unquote dysfluencies. And we
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: have to fill this podcast with these ads. Let's speak
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: to these what you might call quote unquote disfluencies in
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: public speaking.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, so we did an episode on likes ums us
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: and all those things. I definitely recommend if you are
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: interested in that checking that out because I think that's
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: super useful, really fun episode two by the way, Like
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: that was a really fun episode that we put together.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we just did a nostalgia where we expanded
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: on some of that conversation in a way that I
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: think will contribute nicely to what we're going to cover
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: here now.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, one common reason for a fear of public
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: speaking is being unable to clearly say what you intend
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: to say. And as we are expected to be the
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: only one really speaking. We commonly feel that we should
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: be speaking the entire time implicitly, if not explicitly, like
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: we kind of get that feeling like, oh, I've got
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: this time to fill, I gotta fill it, right, And
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: so as such, we sometimes fill the gaps in our
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: speaking with like throat clearing or other longer fillers, like
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: and that sort of thing, something like.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: That right to me, calling me out.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: But I do it too, I'm sure I say you know,
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: I tend to say you know or do you know
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: what I mean? Like, I tend I do add that
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: And this can lead to a whole.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Line of research about what many psychologists have called speech disfluencies.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, essentially they refer to those little filler things. Er yeah, right,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: they refer to those as dysfluencies. Now quick sidebar. Arguably,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: we do them so quickly, so easily, and with so
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: little effort that they're actually highly fluent. But with respect
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: to delivering speech in such a way that is packaged neatly,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: that speech then is less fluent because it is filled
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: with those little things. So then they call that a
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: disfluency in that respect. So just making some splitting hairs. Therefore,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: those pedantic listeners in our crowd, of which there are
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: at least some, otherwise you would be here. But anyway,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: in about a dozen studies at least from the Journal
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: of Applied Behavior Analysis from i saw AS twenty sixteen
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: was one of the earlier ones to the present, investigators
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: have conceptualized speech disfluencies, those fill of things that we
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: were talking about as habits. And it's largely because these
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: things that we do this, these these fillers, they are
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: things that we do unintentionally, automatically, unconsciously, and they're embedded
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: within a chain of our behaviors, sort of like a
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: tick if you imagine people who have those little motor
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: or vocal ticks that they might engage in. Right, and
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: you can see our episode that we did on habit reversal,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: we'll talk we talk a lot about how habit reversal
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: training works, so we'll do a very quick summary of
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: it here. But essentially that's how these researchers in these
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: articles conceptualize that with respect to public speaking, and this
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: was these articles were specifically in the service of trying
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: to build up public speaking by going after those dysfluencies
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: in delivery that people make that have the um like
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: theat throat clears, lipsmack type things.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Right, So, when treating a habit that one is trying
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: to eliminate or at least decrease. Habit reversal training uses
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: competing response training, which is training the individual to do
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: something in place of the habit they are trying to change,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: and awareness training, which is teaching the individual to catch
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: when they are doing the habit targeted for reversal. So
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: there's these two components that really make up the entire
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: habit reversal process.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And there's more than that, but those are kind of
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: the key ingredients that they've sort of landed on as
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: ones that are very commonly in place, and I think
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: what would stand out to most people if they were
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: participating in or observing the habit reversal training. So in
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: this twenty sixteen by Manqso and Miltonberger, the authors worked
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: with the participants to clearly identify what their disfluency looked like.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: A lot of them had that ums uh was that
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: sort of thing. They had the participants watch videos of
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: themselves delivering some speech that they had prepared. I think
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: and then what they did is they had them while
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: watching that video catch themselves. They would they would try
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: and count and observe how often and when they would
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: say uh, like er, tongue clicks, lip smacks, and other dysfluencies.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Sure, and in that study in subsequent studies they included
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: a competing response, which meant that they did something else
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: when they were about to say like er or click
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: their tongue. So in Menquso Miltonberger, the participant raised their
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: hand when they were about to say the forbidden words.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: In a twenty twenty follow up study by Pollock and Perrin,
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: they taught the participants to instead have a silent pause.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, So essentially they were trying to teach them, when
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: you're about to do this disfluency thing, do this instead. Sure,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: and part of the hand raising actually helped with awareness
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: as well. But the pause was a little more natural
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: to speech, right, where you sort of let the break
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: happen and people can follow that just fine.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: Actually, it can be really good to punctuate you're speaking
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: with some pauses, by the way, not that you'd get
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: that from us, no, but it is a thing that
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: you can do, and it's helpful anyway. If you think
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: about it, really, this is effectively a punishment procedure because
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: it is a consequence for a behavior that is likely
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: to decrease the future likelihood of that behavior in that
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: type of situation. Essentially, they're trying to decrease that specific thing. Now,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: there is an aspect of this where they're trying to
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: increase something else, the raising of the hand, the pauses, whatever,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: But you could think of this whole aspect of this
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: as sort of a punishment procedure which teaches you what
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: not to do right now.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: These studies were successful at reducing the likes or as
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: and other disfluencies, but didn't improve public speaking, because ultimately,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: that's what we're trying to get out here, and as
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: we discussed in our and Like episode and our Nostolgia
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: release of that episode, those uh errors, those parts of
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: speech are actually effective at communicating with our audience to
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: a point though, so it's not bad to have them sometimes,
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: just not all the time.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: And in fact, can be good to have them. And
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: in several of these studies where they did this, they
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: did the whole habit reversal thing. They taught them the
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: competing response. They did the awareness training. What they also
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: did that, I'm really happy that they did so. As
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: much as it might sound like I'm criticizing these studies,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: they were useful studies. Like they were good. It was
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: a smart thing to try. There was an established precedent
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: for them trying what they did, and one of the
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: things they included is, well, if we are doing good
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: at public speaking, we should have someone who's an expert
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: at public speaking then judge and rate the performance of
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: our participants. And we won't even tell them which videos
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: are which before, during or after training. We're just going
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: to have a bunch of videos show them to these judges,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: have them rate the videos. Than what they would do
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: is they would aggregate the differences of their scores for
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: untrained and trained, So after the intervention where they trained
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: them to reduce those filler words and phrases, they would
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: then aggregate those judges' scores of that person's delivery of
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: their speech right, And what they actually saw was the
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: raiders and the judges of their performance frequently judge them
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: as worse at public speaking beyond this intervention, specifically noting
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: that they appeared more nervous and less comfortable, and their
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: sentences didn't flow as naturally or as easily as they
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: as they should have. And the only thing that they
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: did consistently mark as improving is the rate of those dysfluencies.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: So you got the one outcome that you worked on,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: but it didn't actually improve their public speaking. As a
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, in several instances they rated it worse.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Interesting, right, it has been curious to us to call
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: something disfluent and not think the approach then of building fluency.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: To that point, one study did this, so Laskian did
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: Gennaro Read in twenty twenty two, specifically taught people how
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: to speak publicly and then rated them for their disfluencies
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: and other speech delivery. Interestingly, and very importantly, all those
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: speech disfluencies didn't decrease. They were perceived and rated as
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: much better speakers following public speaking training. So let's teach
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: people how to do it better.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It was like, rather than go after a
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: thing they should do less of, let's just teach them
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: to do the thing that they should be doing really well. Right,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: And again, I was like, I feel like the answer
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: was kind of obvious in the question if it's dysfluency,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: then build fluency right, right, right, exactly. Again, it's not
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: to say that and or are completely irrelevant when we're
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: talking about public speaking, they still are right and actually
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: Laski and Degenero Read published a follow up study in
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty four which evaluated the rate at which speech
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: disfluencies were founds to actually impact perception of that person's ability,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: because it doesn't necessarily have to be zero, but it
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: also can't be like a thousand going on, right, So
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: at what rate does this start to happen? So interesting
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: what they found was at about five per minute of
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: these speech disfluencies, about five per minute of the ers
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: at that rate, which is about once every twelve seconds,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: that's when it's above that. So that's about sort of
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: the max rate where it's like there's no effect that
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: that has on the perception of the quality. Is about
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: five per minute or ones every twelve seconds. If you
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: went over that, and they went all the way up
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: to one every five seconds, it's up to twelve per minute.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: If you went over that, then that was perceived as
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: negatively impacting the perception of their overall speech delivery. So
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: although you could say you don't have to go after
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: these speech disfluencies. They are a consideration because if they're
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: if someone has all these other good speaking public speak
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: delivery tendencies and the rate of the ums is so high,
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: that's still distracting, Like you still hear that and it
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: influences your ability to follow along and listen to the
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: message that they have. But if they're down at that nice,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: sort of lowish rate around five per minute or a
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: little below that, then people basically don't even notice that
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: it's there. It does not adversely impact them. There's almost
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: no difference between their perception of a speaker who says
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: um and uh at about four per minute as one
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: who says it zero times. So it's okay, Like it's
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: okay to have those, we don't need to get rid
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: of them completely, but we also can't have them at
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: this excessively high rate. So I thought that was really interesting.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Finding Yeah, that's super super interesting. I'd love to see
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: that replicated and see if that if that's pretty consistent.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Completely agree, So to that point, I guess the question
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: that I'm sure a lot of people are having is
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: how do you get good at public speaking?
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Get gooder? Yeah?
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Well, obviously right and all of it. There was a
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: study in twenty twenty four that showed that in order
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: to get good at public speaking, we have to get
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: good or on your way to goodest. That's right, and
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: that was from Bullsh and Bullsh twenty twenty four. But truly,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: like the thing is, I think there are some people
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: that really want to they really want to improve, and
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: they really want to get better, and you can and
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: you can, which is really cool. And I think the
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: thing that people probably don't want to hear, or maybe
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: you've come into the conclusion yourself, is that you just
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: have to practice. You have to practice a lot. Yeah, okay,
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: present over and over and over and over and over
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: it again. Do it with a pretend audience, do it
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: with friends, do it for real. Practice, practice, practice, practice, practice,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: Just practice a whole bunch, and you will just naturally
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: get better through exposure and experience and feedback from those experiences.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as you said, I don't think I had ambition
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: to be any kind of public speaker when I was younger.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: I don't think I was thinking I'm too afraid for this, right. Also,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: don't think I was thinking one day I'm going to
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: be standing on a stage presenting something to people. I
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: don't think that ever occurred to me as a potential.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: But as I got older and I moved into these
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: professional spaces and I got advanced degrees and whatnot, I
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: was doing that more and more. And when I started
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: teaching classes, like in person classes in front of a
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: group of students where I had to show up, have
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: my slides, I'm like walking around conducting myself, et cetera.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: It was like giving a conference presentation, like a mini
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: conference presentation every day that I taught, and I did
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: hundreds of these hundreds, so much so that it got
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: to the point where like I could walk up in
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: front of an audience love professionals and just give a
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: presentation barely practicing or thinking about it. That's not true.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: I always practice, like I was always clear what I
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: was going to say, but like I just didn't. It
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: felt like I had done it so many times at
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: that point that I could just walk up and do it.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: And so that was sort of my experience with it.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: And it's been a while, like I don't present as
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: regularly anymore, and so I've noticed that without that practice,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: I do get a little bit more of the butterflies
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: than I used to. But even still, I just gave
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: a presentation a few months ago to and this was
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: an online presentation, but like there was clearly an audience.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I knew there was an audience. I could see some
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: of the audience from their faces on the screen, and
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: so there was an aspect of this that I was
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: nervous for, but mostly because I felt like I hadn't
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: prepared enough. But again, once I sat down and was
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: in it, it flowed just like I normally do. At
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: this point, I'm so confident in my ability to just
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: do it that like, I hardly get very worked up
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: about it any longer. So that's at least my story
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: on it.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: So my story on it is more so that I
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: have learned to present within my scope. So I think
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of times people get really worked up because
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: they try to present something that they're not as fluent
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: in all present on something I'm super fluent in. So
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: I can talk about the stuff over and over and over,
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: and I can talk about it with a PowerPoint presentation.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: I only the only time I ever put a PowerPoint
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: together is because other people need to see what I'm saying.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: Like I've got all that stuff in the back of
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: my head as we go, you know. And I think
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: the other thing too, is like, and we'll talk about
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: this more in your good habits and strategies and whatnot,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: but just speaking in a voice that is consistent with
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: who you are, and just being comfortable with, like not
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: putting on like a front. I think a lot of
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: people will put on some very particular like presenter voice,
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: and they'll do all the stuff that's like not really
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: in their comfort zone because it's not how they talk
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: or how they present. And that creates some tension and
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: stress because you're pretending to pre You're basically pretending to
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: be somebody who's presenting instead of just presenting.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, side notes about slides, since you mentioned it, and
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: I didn't plan to specifically speak about this. For my money,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: unless your point of developing those slides is to disseminate
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: them later, or unless the point of your slides is
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: to facilitate people who are hearing compaired, your slides should
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: have as little text as possible. They are just there
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: to guide the overall flow to maybe help you stay
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: on track or help your audience make sure they catch
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: the most important things. A wall of text on slides
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: is an automatic fail in my book, don't do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: my slides personally, and my favorite way to use slides
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: is to put memes, jokes, comics and like images. There's
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: so little text. It's like, here's a point I'm making,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: here's a funny image that's kind of related to my point,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: or maybe like an image that's directly related that's not funny,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: but it's just like, here's a thing this you can
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: see what I'm talking about.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: That's my suggestion is your slides are not your script.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: Please if you can, I mean, if you have to
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: like do it, that's fine. But like the best presenters
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I think use their slides and they're they're just a
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: sort of visual aid, and sometimes they do need to
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: have a lot of information because like the whole point
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: is that you will print them out and hand it
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: to people, or that you have people with hearing impairments
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: who need to be able to follow the key points,
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: and those in those instances definitely put text on there
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: that's needed to happen. But they like paragraph script wall
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: of text is too much, you just don't. Just don't.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what else is too much?
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Ads?
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: No ads, Yeah, yeah, they are.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Okay. So we have one last section here, which is,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: let's say that you want to be better at being
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: a public speaker. We've got some sort of habits, tips
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: and tricks. I mean, we mentioned practice. That's that is.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: One thing you can definitely do is just do it.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Just do presenting. You will get better at it. Yeah,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: but here are some other things that you can do.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I could do these things better. Actually going through this
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: list and learning is something that I wish I had
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: known a long time ago, and I'm I'm definitely going
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: to do moving forward. So here's some things that you
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: can do that we found. That is there's sort of
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: basically two different lists will go through. One of them
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: is like when you're speaking, and one of them is
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: just some general guidelines about preparation and using your space
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: your pulpit not pulpit, right, you know what I mean? Yeah,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: lec turn to the presentation. But anyway, here's a couple
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: of lists of things that you can do.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Here're some good habits for better public speaking. So first,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: do a quick eye sweep of your audience. Get to
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: see who's out there, who is present, where they're located.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Because you're going to continue to like look at them
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: throughout your presentation. You're not gonna be staring at your slides.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Right ideally, And they say basically, linger about one second
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: per face at most. Yeah.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: The second is greet your audience so you can do
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: the professional thing, which is hello everyone, my name is Blah,
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: thank you for being here. Like, here's what I'm going
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: to talk about, right, which is step three, introduce your topic,
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: telling them what you're doing. But I learned somebody came
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: up to me not too long ago and they told
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: me that the reason they started following me in my
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: lectures is because I started a presentation by saying, all right, everyone,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: who's ready to learn some shit? And I forgot that
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: I said that. I forgot that I did that at
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: a talk so nice, and so that was great. I
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, that's funny. I forgot they did that.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: That's good. So you're going to introduce your topic right,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: nice and simple. Here's what I talk about. Maybe include
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: some bullet points, objectives, agenda, whatever it is. That shouldn't
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: take too long. And for those of you who are
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: just listening in this audio format, you don't see it.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: I wave my hands the entire time I talk, I
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: pointed things I do. I do a lot, and so
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: just storying while you're speaking is really good. Number five
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: on this is using anecdotes and stories. People really like stories,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: They like examples, they like seeing me in practice. They
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: like stuff they that's the stuff they remember. They don't
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: remember the bullet points of the technical terms. They remember
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: the story of the guy that said, who's ready to
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: learn some in front of people instead of you know
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: what I mean, like, they remember that stuff.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's powerful.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: It really is. As you're continuing to talk, continue to
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: do eyesweeps, You're connecting with people, You're making eye contact,
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: you're smiling, you're nodding, you're acknowledging people as they as
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: you're talking, use transitions and transition statements. You are going
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: to give a summary at the end of your speech.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: I always have a take home points slide. I'm like,
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: if you have to touch anything away, here's what we're doing. Yes,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: and then I say thank you to the audience. I
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: always something I do too. I think the audience ahead
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: of time, so I do something I started doing in
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: the last year is doing a slide where it's just
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: like a moment of gratitude where I think people for
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: being there and for giving me their attention and their time.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: So I do that ahead of time to say like, hey,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: I am grateful to be here, so I'm going to
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: do my best for you since you are giving me
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: this time. And people seem to really like that too.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: So there's and then thinking at the end, thank you
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: for being here. I appreciate it. If you have any questions,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: feel free to reach out, so on and so forth.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, I completely agree, and I love it. I've seen
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: talks that start with thank yous, and I actually do
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: appreciate those, and it feels good. I feel like they're
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: acknowledging people who are relevant to them. Anyway, it doesn't
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: have to be long. It's just a quick thing. Yeah, exactly,
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: all right. Here are some other suggestions for getting better
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: at your presenting. One, as we sort of mentioned, is
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: prepare ahead of time. Make sure your stuff is in order,
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: make sure you know what's coming up, make sure you
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: know what to expect. It allows you to just stay
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: on top of how things are going. That includes your
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: transitions and things of that nature. But prepare ahead of time.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: That will help, for sure.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: I don't do that. I don't do that. I'm terrible
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: with that.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: I don't do it as much anymore. But I think
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: if it's something you want to get good at, a
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: way to start to get shod at this is with
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: the preparation and the practice. Yeah.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: Another is watch other good speakers. Like one of the
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: things when I was early on in my professional career
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: is I would pick talks largely based on the title
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: of the talk, and it would be like, that sounds
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: really interesting, I want to go pick out that one.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Eventually I started picking out talks because of the speakers
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: that I knew were going to be good, or that
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: I was just interested in the scene for some reason.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Because someone who's good at presenting, it almost doesn't matter
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: what their topic is, right, Like, I just want to
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: see this person go. They're so interesting to watch that
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: I feel so connected to their topic no matter what
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: it is, Like watch those good speakers, and that will
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: show you how to continue to be a good speaker,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Like you can pick up some of the habits that
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: they have, watch the things that they do, look for
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: the consistencies and how they present their stuff, and steal
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: it like make it your own. But like watch good
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: presenters and become a good presenter yourself by watching what
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: they do. And another one that can be helpful is
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: if you can not everyone can do this, but if
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: you can, go to the place where you will be
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: presenting and just practice standing in front of that empty room,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: get familiar with the layout of the place, where will
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: you be looking, where will you be standing, where will
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: you be coming in from, where will you be leaving?
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: And just wander around. Wander around the room and get
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: comfortable and get familiar. Again. You can't always do that,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: but if you can, then I think it's helpful to
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: do this.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, So you can stand up straight and smile
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: at your audience, smile and joke and help your audience
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: feel comfortable and bring them in for your presentation. So
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: like basically what you're doing is you are welcoming them
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: with your body language. Yes, now you might have some
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: folks that are not very fond of your smile. I
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: don't know why that's the case, And you know, so,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: like I think the thing is like just just it doesn't.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: You don't necessarily have to stand up straight and smile.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: The big thing is just being welcoming in your body language.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: Like when I use gestures. Going back to the gestures thing,
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: I tend to keep my arms open and like like welcoming,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: like hey, like almost like a like I don't want
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: to say like a preacher, but I always try to
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: keep my arms open. I try not to cross my
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: arms when I'm presenting because just there you said just
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: some some people find that off putting and stuff like that.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: But smiling, joking, just making me easy for the people
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: to be there, I think is really important. Another one
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: is using your voice dynamically, being loud, being quiet, being fast,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: being slow. I think that makes a huge difference.
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, allow yourself the opportunity to get kind of intimate
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: and quiet, let your voice sort of move slowly through it,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: allow yourself pauses. Yeah, then get loud like The dynamic
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: nature of a presentation can really keep capture people's attention.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: And furthermore, you want to, as you mentioned before, you
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: kind of want to sound like how you talk. You
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: want to have inflection and intonation. When things are serious,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: you might let your voice get kind of low in quiet,
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: but also deep. When it's exciting, you allow your voice
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: to get high and fast, and so play with that,
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: play with your presentation, have it sound fun, have it
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: sound engaging. That can really help to just have people
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: connect with your topic, with your subject and with you.
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, something I do is I tend to have loud, quiet, fast,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: slow moment and said, that's just kind of how I
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: naturally talk when I talk about something that.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: I'm reallyassure about. Yeah.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: But the one thing I'm very intentional about, and something
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: that like I really really plan for, is that if
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: I make a joke, I don't want my entire presentation
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: to be jokes. Like I'm going to make a lot
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: of jokes throughout. I tend to be very snarky and
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: sarcastic and drop what like, do things like that as
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: I go. But one thing I always make sure to
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: do is pretty soon after I make a joke, I
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: get real serious and I'm and I say, this is
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: why this is important. And so I kind of like
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: what I play with this tone more than anything. Yeah,
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: So I play with Okay, yeah, this is funny, but like,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: let's talk about this real in a real situation. And
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: then I bring it down and I have a conversation
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: about why it's so important. Da da da da da,
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: And then I make a joke coming out of that
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: and I can move on to the next topic. So
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: I tend to do that a little bit, but I
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: think I do that naturally, Like I try to be
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: intentional about that, but I tend to do that naturally
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: when I speak.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: Anyway, that's great.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: Stick to your time limit. Nobody nobody wants to stay
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: after no promise you that they have an expectation. Audience
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: is going to come in. They're gonna have an expectation
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: for how long you're supposed talking. Yeah, if you do not,
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: and I'm gonna I've watched this happen with like really
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: well known speakers. If you do not get all of
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: your presentation in within that timeframe, that's your fault. Stop
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: doing what you're doing. It is the end of the presentation.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Move on. Tell people, Hey, you know what I had
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: more I talked over. That's okay, let me make sure
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: I get you this information. Please email me blah blah
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: blahlah blah. But like you have to just stop when
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: you get to a point where you can't just go, oh,
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: I need another thirty minutes, right, nobody's gonna be stoked
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: You've committed to that time. They've committed to that time.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: The audience has basically agreed to I'm giving you this
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: amount of my time. When you break that contract, no
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: one feels good with that situation, even some of the
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: most important speakers. They most people are are already have plans.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of times in the instances where there's
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: a presentation going on, they've essentially planned for I've got
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: this much time, I'm committing to this, and then I've
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: got the next thing happening at the time slot. So
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: honor that time, I think is important.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hugely. And then if you're using slides, do not
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: let them control you use them as a tool, not
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: a crutch. So they are your bullet points. They are
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: your references, like you're not reading out your references on
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: your like in the articles, Like when you're reading a
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: research article, you're not just reading out the references and
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: you're reading the content the material, right, So you treat
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: your slides like they are reference points rather than they
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: are the content that you are presenting.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, which I guess is related to I thought
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: we didn't really have anything on slides, but I liked
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: the elaboration from earlier. But related here is use those
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: slides judiciously. If you will, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: So I think the moral of the story here is like,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: build fluency and you will get fluency. And fluency does
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: not mean go blightening quick. Fluency means you are good
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: at all of the skills that are embedded and involved in,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: and doing a adequate and even a great presentation beyond
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: adequate should be successful. Yes. I mean again, the whole
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: point here is that someone's committed time to you, and
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: you've committed time to them, and as we've said, although
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: that can be a fearful thing, and you're thinking about
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: the fact that, like, man, I just don't want to
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: mess this up, and I understand that I've had that
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: thought myself. It's it's all about the practice, the preparation
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: and using these tools and strategies and then just practice,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: just get good at it. Like you probably will have
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: some presentations that don't go very well, right, next one
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: will be better. Yeah, Like, allow those to be learning
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: opportunities that help you get better. And that's essentially what
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: it comes down to.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: You have to take every every opportunity you get to
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: speak is an opportunity to learn from it and do
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: something different next time.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, So there there will be a next time. So
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: don't let don't let the fear of public speaking be
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: who you are. If you could be good at public
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: speaking and that's something that you want to exist in
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: your space, there are so many benefits that come from it.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: If you don't need it, you don't want it, and
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: there's no real benefit for you, then by all means
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: ignore this. Move on, do other things with your life.
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: But for those of us, for whom that's going to
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: be relevant, there are lots of benefits and it's cool
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: something to know. Fun little tidbit we have for you.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: I guess is well, we'll get to that. Ads. One
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: important thing that I think is maybe like will help
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: you feel better about public speaking is you don't have
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: to be good to be good. I mean, you do
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: good to be good, but you don't have to be
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: good to have an audience. Let's say that's true. There
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: are people who are terrible at public speaking, but they
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: can absolutely carry a crowd. Right Trump comes to mind.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: This guy can literally not even put together one coherent
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: sentence ever, Right, but he will talk for hours and
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: people will sit there and I guess, listen, I don't
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: know what they're doing.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: They're usually praying.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Oh my god. So anyway, people, and he's not the
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: only one by by far, but just very prevalent right
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: now in the I don't know, the election was a
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. We're recording before the election. We
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: don't know how that turned out, hopefully well, But anyway,
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: public figure at the time a terrible public speaker, like abossible.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: You look at it like you go to the checklist
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: of public speaking, none of it's there. But man can
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: carry a crowd, so you don't necessarily even have to
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: be good if you do have a few of those
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: other ingredients. One of them is the confidence part, which
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: really comes from the comfortable list, which is speaking in
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: your own voice, and that you are you bring in
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: some of that dynamic stuff. And if you notice Trump,
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: the one thing he does do a lot of his anecdotes.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Yes most of them are not true, but they are anecdotes.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: So like, you can carry some of that stuff in there.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: So you can just bring a few pieces to the
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: table and you'll probably be okay, depending on who your
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: audience is and who you are and delivering that stuff. Right.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: There are also people who are brilliant, awesome, clever, really
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: good awesome people who are terrible at public speaking and
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: cant be true at all or carry a crowd like
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: there are names like when I was talking about going
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: to conferences, I look for these names of people for
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: some of them who am like this person academically is
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: like a hero of mine. And I go to watch
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: them public speaker like dual presentation, and my leaving thought is, ooh,
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: maybe I will Maybe I'll just read their work moving forward.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: I love how smart they are really not good at
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: public speaking. So that's yes, yes, being intelligent not a requirements.
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: I kind of wish it was, but that's not a requirement.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: You can be a public speaker without it. But that
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: being sad, it doesn't hurt. There are plenty of people
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: who are brilliant and awesome and great at public speaking
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: and great at carrying a crowd, and then there's all
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: spectrum of manner of speaker in between. But those are
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: just some things I guess that are worth knowing. Is
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: you can you can still get up and do okay?
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And that's not the end of it.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: You can always get better, exactly.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: You can always get better if you choose to yes,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: or if you like to and you work toward doing so.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: But anyway, that's I think where we're at with that.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Anything else you like to add about public speaking before
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: we get to our recommendations, I.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: Think the only thing I would add is that public
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: speaking is one of those things where we're very afraid
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: of it, but that the end of result is is
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: really nice because you won't die.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: So even if you mess up, you won't die from it.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: So it's a low I don't want to say low risk.
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: I want to say it's a safe risk to take.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: That's fair. I mean, I think if you want to
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: go on someplace and spew a bunch of hate speech,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: you could probably end your career with like one your speech.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: Fair be mindful of that sort of thing. But for
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: the most part, it's pretty low risk. As you said, right,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: you go in their well intentioned, do you do your best?
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: Like worst case scenario, someone goes not my favorite speaker,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you got some practice
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: in there, maybe you'll get better next time. But like
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: if you really go in there with like good faith
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: and you do your best and you're really trying, like
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: someone might say they could be better or that's really
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: not for me then that that could be a thing
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: that happens, but for the most part, little risk. But
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to go in and start
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: spewing a bunch of hate speech or telling everyone why
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: they should think that, you're still a funny comedian even
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: though all you want to do is make gay jokes
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: and racial jokes and people just aren't having it. And
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: your response is I'm just going to argue with you
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: and tell you you should laugh at me, and you're dumb.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: If you don't, then maybe you just don't make it
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: to speak in front of people anymore. And that's on you, buddy, right.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: I think that's perfectly reasonable.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, anyway, that was a great thing to end on
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: that I more than I needed to. I should just
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: left it with but no, it all works no filter
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: over here. I like it. Okay. Well, if you are
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: joining us for the time, first of all, thank you,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: really appreciate that you made it through this entire episode.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: Happy to have you here. We are going to recommend
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: some things unrelated to public speaking, of course, because they're
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: just recommendations, just fun stuff that we do. But before
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: we do that, I've got some credits to get through,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: which is that if you would like to support us,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: you like what we do and you would like to
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: see more of it in the world, we could really
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: use some help. One way that you can do that
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: is by joining our club of awesome people, and when
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: you do that, you'll get some ad free episodes, bonus episodes,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: early episodes, all that kind of stuff. You can have
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: a head over to Patreon and there's all kinds of
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: tears at which you can subscribe, and that's great. We
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: appreciate whenever you can do that. And also what will
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: happen is I'm going to read your name for the
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: list of people who are already doing that thing and
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: have been so generous what their time, their money, their
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: engagement with us. That is Mike, m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian, Ashley, Kiara,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: and Michelle. Thank you, patrons.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: We love you, so much, so much, so much.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Of course, thank you to my audience for listening and
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: joining with us. If you have been with us before
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: and you're joining us again, welcome back. And if it's
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: your first time, then welcome here. We're really happy. Either way,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: we really appreciate that you found your way to us.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: I feel like this one's pretty par for the course
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: for the kinds of things that we tackle and in
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: the way that we like to tackle them. So I
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: think we're we're more or less in the middle of
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: the road on this particular topic.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: But there's also plenty of weird, fringy things that we've done.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: We've covered a pretty wide gamut of topics. This is
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: almost episode four hundred, so we've been at it for
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: a minute. Yeah. But of course, thank you so much
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: to my team which is writing in fact checking from Shane,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: Katie and myself. Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: Our audio engineer guru, magic music sound making person is
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: justin Greenhouse. Thank you for all that you do.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Love him.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely the best. Is there anything else that I
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: forgot that you would like to add before we move
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: on to our our recommendations here?
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: No, but I think that covers it.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, I don't remember if I said, but liking, subscribing,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: sharing with a friends, leaving ratio review, buying some merch
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: from us, those are other things you can do. But
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: all right, great, Yeah, those are the things all right, perfect,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: let's recommend some things.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: Recommendations.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: So mine is a movie called The Menu. It's two
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: years old, but I'm so glad I got to see it.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: What was interesting is I guess maybe I thought this
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: was just a straight up horror movie and I got
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of really great laughs out of it because
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: there is like a comedy element to it that's really fun.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: So's it's marketed as an American comedy horror. It's directed
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: by Mark my Lad or my Lot. I don't know
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: what LT's directed, but let me see real quick, because
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: I think he's He did Ali g in the House
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and two. Okay, so he's done some
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: like really strange things. He's done a bunch of TV shows.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: So he did some stuff on Shameless, the show Minority Report,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: he did the pilot, he did Succession. He's done sixteen
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: episodes of Succession, and he's working currently on Harry Potter,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: which is interesting anyway. Is It stars Ralph Finds, who
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: you will know as Voldemore. He plays Chef Slovak, who
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: is like this executive fancy chef, And the whole premise
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: of the movie is that this group of people go
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: to this remote island for an exclusive dinner and it
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: does not go the way that they think it goes.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: It's Anya Taylor Joy as Margo and Nicholas Holt as Tyler.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: Tyler is one of my favorite characters because everybody besides
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: Anya is unlikable in this movie. They're all like food critics.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: And John Luguizamo's in it, and he's like just like
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: a washed up name dropping actor. And it is so great.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: It starts off so fun and it just gets darker
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: and darker and weirder and stranger as the movie goes.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: It is brilliant. It is so much fun. And I
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: also learned that it was produced by Adam McKay, who
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: is responsible for Vice Anchorman, Vice, Taladiga, Night Step Brothers,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: the other guys, and the other producer is Will Ferrell.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Wow, did not know that there are some dark comedic
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: elements to this, But this is a lot closer to
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: horror than it is comedy.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's like a dark there's a lot of dark
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: humor in it. There's some stuff that like as it
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: starts to twist and turn and get like real surreal,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: it's real strange because things will happen and then everybody
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: just goes back to eating and you're like, what is
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: happening in this movie? It's so bizarre. It's great though,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: It's done really really well. So I loved it.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I enjoyed it as well. And that is I
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: believe on HBO. I believe that is where.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, it is on HBO.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, cool, very good or Max all right to the menu.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Very good. I'm also recommending a movie. It is called
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: The Adam Project. This came out a couple of years
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: ago on Netflix. This was starring right. This actually has
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: kind of a large Marvel cast. If anyone's familiar with
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: the Marvel movies. It's got Ryan Reynolds is your main character,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: Zoe Saldana, Mark Ruffalo, oh my god, I'm already forgetting
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: everyone else. Those are sort of the main the big
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: main leads. Jennifer Garner, Catherine Keener, Christopher Lloyd's even in it.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: So anyway, there's there's quite the cast in this, and
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: actually it kind of feels like a Marvel movie in
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: some ways, less superhero e than that, but anyway, it's
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: just it's a tight little movie. It's only I think
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: an hour and forty five minutes or so, really fun
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: sci fi adventure type movie, and it's on Netflix. I
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: believe it was a Netflix original, so you can find
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: it there PG. Thirteen. So yeah, if you're in for
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: a nice little sci fi adventure movie, I would say
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: go check out The Adam Project. And I'm not going
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: to give away too much more beyond that. I think
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: there's plenty too to find and enjoy here. So that's
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: my recommendation.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: I love it. I love it so much.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: All right, The Adam Project and the menu of the
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: two movies were recommending. If as I meant, and if
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: you would like to talk to us about your experiences, recommendations,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: or thoughts on how we talked about public speaking, you
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: should email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: You can also reach out to us on the social
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: media platforms. Happy to hear from people there, and thank
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: you so much for listening. Is there anything else to
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: add or that I forgot Shane before we wrap up today?
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: No, I think that covers it all.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: Right, then, this is Abraham, this is Shane. We're out. See. Yeah,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: you've been listening to why we do what we do?
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and we
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: hope you have an awesome day.