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Bruce Plummer's Journey: From Addiction and Anger to Faith and Hope (Part One) · More Than Medicine

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: So listen up, because the doctor is in.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Welcome to More Than Medicine.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty, dusty scrapbook.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm delighted today to have as my guest Bruce Plummer.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Now, bruce is all the way from Montana and I've been hearing stories about Bruce for years from the folks in my church who go out to Montana on mission trips.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: In fact, some of them were out there just this last couple of weeks and they came back and once again they brought me stories about Bruce Plummer.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: So, bruce, welcome to More Than Medicine.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you, I appreciate the opportunity to share than medicine.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Well, thank you, I appreciate the opportunity to share.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: It always is a blessing to share the mighty power of God and what he can do in somebody's life, and I've done this lots and lots of times.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: And sometimes, when I do this, I always feel weird because my story doesn't change.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: The story doesn't change at all, it's just always on.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: It's the same story.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: My story doesn't change.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: The story doesn't change at all, it's just always on.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: It's the same story.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: My story doesn't change, it's just what happened yesterday.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a very unique story from what I've heard and I haven't heard the whole story so I'm very curious, bruce, to hear the story of God's grace in your life.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Now I understand that you're an American Indian and that you've been a pastor for over 30 years and now a missionary to your own people group out there in Montana.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Is that all fair to say?
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty fair.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: I was a bivocational pastor for a lot of years.
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: I went to Oklahoma Baptist University six months after being saved, when I was 21 years old, and subsequently was associate pastor off and on for years.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: And about 22 years ago I got to listen to a guy that probably a lot of your listeners know at a conference, Dr Henry Blackaby.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: And when I left that conference and got to meet Henry Blackaby he radically changed my outreach to my people and ever since then I went into full-time missionary work and where I went home, was allowed to go home to the reservation I was born on, and the reservation I was born on and the reservation I grew up on is called the Fort Belknap Indian Reservation in north central Montana.
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: And so I've been back here and initially, when we moved back, we decided not to plant a new church or start a new church because our people have just not accepted the gospel.
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of reasons for that and I explain some of that as I go along here.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: But we just started to do fellowships we call them fry bread fellowships where fry bread is a common food.
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: It's a survival food for my people when we were first assigned to reservations and not allowed to be citizens of the United States of America, and so now it's sort of a status symbol among our people and we've perfected that.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: Making of fried bread is something that we eat all the time, and it's just.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: If you're an indigenous person in the United States of America, you will know what fried bread is, and it's just one of those common little points.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: So yeah, so I've been home serving on my home reservation for 22 years now.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I got you.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Well, let's go all the way back to the beginning, start back even before you became a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and tell us about your life.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: And then tell us how you became a believer, believer, and then go forward from there.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to be quiet and I want my listeners to hear your story, bruce Plummer.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Okay, well, I grew up on the Fort Belknap Reservation.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: I was born on the reservation in 1952 in a log cabin where I lived with my family.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: I'm the second oldest of seven children and I grew up on the reservation and I still, to this day, 50 years later, still remember well, actually 71 years later.
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: I still remember the first time we saw white people come on our reservation.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: We had never been around them and that's where I grew up.
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: And, of course, we heard all the stories that my parents heard when my father was born in 1920.
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: He was not allowed to be citizens of the United States because Indians were expressly prohibited by the 14th Amendment to become citizens.
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: And that's really kind of started.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: Where my anger started, with my frustration with the United States, is that once they conquered us and once we surrendered states?
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: Is that once they conquered us and once we surrendered, instead of assimilating us into society, the US government decided to make treaties with us.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: Over the years they made 572 different treaties with the different tribes and in those treaties they said that if you'll quit fighting us and if you'll stay on these particular area, masses, that we'll take care of you and we'll help you learn to be a modern citizen, I guess, is what they were looking at.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: This was back in the 1800s and our reservation was 1879, when they gave us the land, the Fort Belaford where we live now.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: And anyway, through the years, as we grow up, you know, you grow up in a population that is not allowed to be citizens.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: My mother, my father, my grandparents are both sides.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: You hear all the stories of what happened to us and I always tell people this kind of interesting thing is they didn't mean to, but they inadvertently handed us their hurt, their grief and what happened to them and their parents, who are a direct result of what happened in the uh, when we were settled on reservations and we weren't allowed to be citizens of the united states of america.
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: It's kind of a peculiar thing that's happened in history.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: But uh, we, even though we were born uh in on native american soil, our american soil, and we lived on reservations within the continental boundary of the United States, we were specifically prohibited by the 14th Amendment of becoming US citizens.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: And it's the craziest thing that ever happened, because what happened is just crazy.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: We didn't speak English, my dad didn't speak English at all.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: He only spoke his language, his native language, which is a Cree tribe out of Canada where his parents are from, language his native language, which is a Cree tribe out of Canada where his parents are from.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: So because of that, you wonder why today, after 531 years of the gospel of God being in America, less than 4% of my people are saved.
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: We're an unreached people group right here in America, but part of that is because of the frustration and the anger that we weren't allowed in.
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: It wasn't until July 2nd 1924, that they changed the 14th Amendment to the Constitution that allowed us to become citizens for the first time.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: So my dad became a citizen in 1924, july 2nd 1924, along with the rest of the rest of American Indians in Montana and all, mostly all the Western states.
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: We were allowed to be citizens for the very first time, and so I grew up.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: I grew up on a reservation.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: We didn't understand the way that white people think, or dominant society.
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: Maybe I should say we didn't understand the way dominant society thought, the way they did the work.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: They think different than we are.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: They're linear thinkers, domin.
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: They're linear thinkers.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: Dominant society is linear thinkers.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: We're not linear thinkers and we just couldn't figure out how to live in a society because, first off, we weren't allowed to be citizens.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: But once we were granted citizenship, we still couldn't figure out how do we become part of a society that operates under totally different principles than we operate In dominant society.
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: The one is more important than everything.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: In our society, the tribe is more important than the one, and that's a radically different change when you think about living in a community where if one eats, they all eat.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: If nobody eats, then nobody eats.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: We just help each other, and so there's some radical social norms that we've had a hard time struggling to figure out.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: How do you live in a country that lives totally different than you, where the youth are more important than the elders, where in our culture the elders are the most important?
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: When you allow the elders to eat first, you hold them up in your community and the children are important.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, but our lives are not centered around our children.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: Our lives are centered around the tribe and around the culture culturally around the tribe and what the culture older elders want to do.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: It's just radically different.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: So we struggled to figure out how to fit in.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: I grew up when my dad got a job off the reservation and we were allowed to leave the reservation.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Once we were citizens, we were allowed to leave.
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: I was born in 1952, and we moved off my grade school years.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: I was on the reservation.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: Then we moved off the reservation and went to a high school a junior high and high school off the reservation.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: And it's just so radically different to the way we work, the way our society is Everybody.
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: They wouldn't teach our history, they weren't telling the truth about what happened, why we were placed on reservations, what happened to us.
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: And the truth is, even to this day, in 2024, the truth is not really told.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: They don't tell lies about us.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: They just don't tell anything about us.
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: Well, I was really frustrated.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: I became angry at that.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: I went to high school.
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: I ran away from home when I was 16 years old, I had gotten into an argument with my football coach and he had grabbed me and slammed me against the wall in my football uniform and said you blanky, blank Indian, you're so stupid, you just need to not even play in this game.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: You don't understand it.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Well, I did understand it, but I made a mistake and so I got mad and threw my helmet down and he said you pick it up or you're off the football team.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: I said you don't have to kick me off the football team, I'm leaving.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: I went home, grabbed a rifle that I had, went to the bar and hawked it with my clothes.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: My mother was raising us since I was 10 because my dad was an alcoholic and left.
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: So I was 16 years old and my mother had a boyfriend that I didn't like and he didn't like me, so I just abandoned it.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: I left and I ran away and was gone for a year.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: I hooked up with an organization called AIM.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: It's called the American Indian Movement.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: It was just kind of a radically left-wing group that was trying to recover some of the treaty and make them fulfill the treaty obligations that the government had made to us, and so they did things like in 1969, a bunch of Indians I was actually in Portland, oregon, I had run away as well myself running around with a bunch of other young, angry Indian men who hated white people, hated the United States and just hated the world we live in.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Anyway, they told us that some of our Russell Banks or Dennis Banks and Russell Means and some of the other guys had taken over this island to try and get it back into the tribal in San Francisco area.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: So we went down there along with a bunch of other Indians and got out to the island and it was just one of those things.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: You were just.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: You know, when you're radicalized the way I was, and I don't know what I was doing out there, honestly, I didn't have any sense of what our future would be or what it would look like to be continue to forgive and fight against our US government.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: But again, when you're angry, angry anger overcomes all radical reasoning, and so I just joined because it seemed like the right thing to do so anyway.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: After that, I was gone from my family until the next year, and I was gone a little over a year and I finally went back and decided that my dad was in one of his sober times of his life and so he was in a different community where my mother and the rest of my brothers and siblings lived.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: So I went and moved in with him and started back to school and managed to graduate from high school, went on to college, but again I hated why people would fight all the time.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: My life was one of fighting.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: I learned to pick fights and getting in fights and drinking and doing these really stupid things, ended up in Portland Oregon in 1973 after dropping out of college because I was drinking too much and being in too many fights and that sort of thing Dropped out of college and went to, ended up in Portland Oregon living on the streets and got in trouble with the police out there a number of times because, again, I was angry and hateful, I guess young man, and just didn't think I'd live to be the age of 21,.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: And I finally turned 21, and I was mad at the world and I'd gotten into really big trouble with the police and was in jail.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: And while I was in jail I decided I was going to kill myself because I had disappointed my mother, I had disappointed my family, my tribe, and I had become exactly what I told people I would never become, and that was a drunk Indian and that's all that I was.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: My life was meaningless and useless to me and my family and I determined that when I got out of jail I was going to kill myself.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: And I had no money or that was because I was homeless, I only had the clothes that I had on I decided I would go out to the freeway.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: Back in the early 70s they started building freeways around cities and I thought, well, the only way to kill myself was to jump off a bridge in front of a bunch of traffic coming, and if the fall didn't kill me, the vehicles would.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: But I got out there about 11 o'clock that night.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: I had gotten out of jail that day and it was raining.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: And of course, because it was raining and it was so late at night, the traffic was just a car here and a car there and I thought, dang, I can't even kill myself, right, because I didn't think I'd have to be trafficked there all the time.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: But it was 11, 12 o'clock at night and there was hardly any traffic.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: I said, well, I'll wait until morning when the traffic rush comes in, and I'll do it.
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: So I tried to find a place to sleep and no car doors were open, no garages were open.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: So I finally went inside underneath a tree, a very big old pine tree, right next to the trunk, where it was dry and angry.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: I've always known there was a God.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: There's never been a time in my life that I didn't know there was a creator.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: I didn't understand at the time.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: I had heard about Jesus and I thought Jesus was a white man's God and didn't want anything to do with him.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: I already knew by looking at creation that there was a creator.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: There's no way this could have happened by accident In our culture.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Every Indian I've ever met that calls himself an Indian believes in the creator.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: I've never met an Indian atheist in 50 years I've been in the ministry.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: I never have.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: They all believe that there is a God and there's only one God, and he created everything, including the Indians, including the non-Indians people.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: We've always believed that, but anyway, I was mad at him.
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: I was yelling at God.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Why not look where I ended up?
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: 21-year-old, drunk, living on the street, can't even kill myself correctly in a timely manner, and finally fell asleep and lo and behold and behold, in the morning church bells woke me up.
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: Now I knew what church bells were because people had told me when those bells on Sunday morning in small communities around the country back in the early 70s, you know, a lot of churches would ring bells in the morning and I knew what they were, although I'd never gone to church or had read the Bible or anything like that.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I went to cultural things where we prayed.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: I believe in prayer.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: I believe in prayer ever since I grew up, we prayed before meals.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: We thanked the Creator for providing the meals, for providing our housing.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: We thanked the Creator for our tribe.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: We thanked the Creator for our dances, for the way that we prayed.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: And just prayer was really a simple thing for me to accept, because I always knew there was a God and we called him Wonk and Tonka in my language.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: At the time I spoke English really well, but we still were taught in our language, how to speak in our language.
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: So, anyway, the church bells rang and that was the first time that morning, 50 years ago, that I heard God for the very first time, because I sat there and watched all these white people go into this church and they were all laughing and joking and, you know, all clean, and I was dirty and wet and hungry and tired and I thought look at God, these people.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: That's the way white people are.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: They don't care about us Indians, they put us on reservations, they broke all the treaties, they stole our food and just on and on.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: You know all the tragedies that happened through the years.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: But that's the first time that God actually spoke to me and he simply said and I still remember to this day.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: He said Bruce, I want you to go down there and talk to a man.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: I said, no, I'm not going.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: That's a white man's religion.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: They talk about Jesus.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: That's a white man's religion.
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: They talk about Jesus.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: That's a white man's God.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: I already know who you are, god.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: I don't need to know about that.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: Jesus, god that white men believe in.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: But finally the church was over and there was one vehicle left in the parking lot and, to make a really long story short, I thought, well, I'm going to go down there and talk to this man.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, I would not beg for food and my pride was a real downfall in my life.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: People that are angry sometimes, pride is the downfall all the time and it gets you in big trouble.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: And I was a very prideful man.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: I was a proud Indian, but I was not big.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: So I went down there and thought, well, maybe he'll give me a couple dollars and I can go buy a bottle of wine and something and get drunk and go jump off the freeway the way I planned.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: So I went down there and walked in the back door of the church there was a guy up with the pulpit area.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: I didn't know what that was, but he said it was a pulpit area.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: He had a robe and ribbons around him, colored things, and I said he said what can I do for you, young man?
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Well, I didn't know what to say.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: I didn't say, well, can I have steal before I'd beg?
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: And he said came down.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: He shook my hand.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: He said my name is Gibb.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: What's your name?
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: I said, well, my name is Bruce.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: And uh, he said well, what's going on?
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: And again, I didn't know what to say.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: I said, well, I just need to talk to somebody.
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: I didn't know what else to say.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: He said tell you what he said the craziest thing I ever heard a white man say in his life.
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: He said I'm going home to eat.
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: Eat, beth is have lunch ready with my two kids.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: Why don't you come home and eat with us and then we'll talk in my backyard and patio?
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: I thought I cannot believe this crazy white man is going to let me in his house.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: I'll steal him blind.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: I said, all right, so anyway, on the way over to his house, a little Volkswagen that he drove at the time this was in 1973, in February of 1973, I went over there to his house and we got to his house and we got to his house and his wife opened the door.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: She said Beth.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: He said I have a Bruce here.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: He's going to eat lunch with us.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: And so she came up and shook her hand and she said something that should have got me angry, but it didn't.
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: She said Bruce, lunch is about 15 minutes away.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: You want to take a quick shower?
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: I should have said, well, am I dirty and stinky and smelly which I was.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: But I thought, well, no, I'm going to die.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: I might as well die clean.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: So I said, yeah, I'll take a shower, but these are all the clothes I have.
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: She said, well, I'll give you a set of Gibb Sweat and then you will wash your clothes and after lunch you'll be ready and you can talk to Gibb.
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: I said, all right, age, even though they're angry and hated the world, I understood kindness, I understood what it meant to be kind and I thought, well, okay, bruce, you're not going to steal from these people.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: You'll go ahead and eat lunch with them, talk to Gibb, maybe he'll give you a few dollars and I'll continue on with my plan to kill myself.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: Well, through the course of eating lunch and stuff, we talked went outside after lunch and Gib and I spent several hours talking me angrily, yelling about all the treaties that had been broken, the way the government treated us Indian people, not even allowing us to be citizens of the United States.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: My dad was born.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: He wasn't even a citizen.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: He was talented In the 1920 census report, along with my grandparents, his mom and dad, as non-taxable human beings is how they counted us.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: We were humans, but we lived within the continental US.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: And we were born in the continental US, but we weren't allowed to be citizens because the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution exempted us specifically from that.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Because the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution exempted us specifically from that.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: So, anyway, we talked and talked, and about supper time, we ate a light supper and he said, well, I've got to go to church.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: I said well, I'm not going to church, that's white man's God.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: I said I know Jesus is your white man, your God.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: He said well, jesus is our God, but he's not the only God.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: I said you have more than one God.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: I said you have more than one God.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: He said well, no, we don't have more than one God, but we have God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: I said you guys have three gods.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: And that concept in my head was I said you have three gods.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: He said well, no, no, there are only one.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: I said I thought you just told me there were three.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: And he said yes, I did, but they're one.
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: I said well, that doesn't make any sense.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: I've known God since I was born.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: We pray all the time.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: I don't have a problem praying at meals, I pray when I go to bed, I pray up when I welcome the morning.
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: I said but this three-God thing doesn't make any sense to me.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: So he said well, I need to explain that for you.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: So anyway, to make a long story short, he invited live with him for a little bit until I got my life back together, because I still had to go back to jail because I'd been arrested for things.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: I had to go to the judge and respond and that sort of thing.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: And so I said, well, okay.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: I thought, well, this crazy white guy is letting me in his house and I'm not going to steal from him, and Beth is really nice.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: And so I moved in.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: Well, I moved in with him.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: I didn't.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: The only thing I owned was what I had on.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: I'd even lost my backpack with my stuff on it.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: So I started living with him and we'd argue every day and, the most amazing thing, he shared a scripture with me that got through to me for the first time that didn't use the word Jesus, because if he would have used the word Jesus, I would have just said well, I know who Jesus is.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: That's a white man's God, and because of Jesus, you guys took all our land away from us.
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: You put us on reservations.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: But he used a verse that's probably the most popular verse that you know today, and that was he'd say well, bruce, I don't know why God broke that treaty, or why a white man broke that treaty, why God let him break that treaty.
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: He said.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: But I do know this that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: I listened to him because he didn't use the name Jesus, but I have found out in my lifetime experience that the word itself has an authority unto itself, and for the first time I actually heard the scripture preached to me or said to me, and so I pondered that a minute and after we discussed it, I said well, I don't understand who is God's son.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: You said he was God's son.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: He said, yes, and that was Jesus.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: I said you mean the one they talk about at Christmastime?
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: He said, yes, I said that's God.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: He said, yes.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: I said, well, nobody's ever told me that.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: I said in him and God, father and one's a son.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: But you said there's three, the Holy Spirit, and he said, well, let me explain that.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: So he did the best, his ability to explain to me the Trinity, the trial nature of the Godhead, both in the Old Testament and New Testament.
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: And I had heard about the Bible but I didn't want to say it.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: It was interesting.
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: We read a lot of the Old Testament which I identified with readily and I sped it up.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: He told me about sin and I said well, you know, that's why people believe in sin, everybody.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: You call them a sinner, you call them a heathen and they're all going to burn in hell.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Why do you say that?
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: You know we're human beings just like everybody else.
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: We're Indian people.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: We don't think like you, but we know who God is.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: We might not know that God had a son named Jesus, but we know who God is and we believe that with all our hearts and we still do, my people still do.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: And so we talked and after he shared that I was a sinner and that I could actually have my sins forgiven.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: I tell people all the time it wasn't heaven that attracted me to Christianity.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: What attracted me to Christianity was the possibility that I could get a brand new start.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: So I couldn't believe it.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: Hell, I wasn't scared of hell because I lived on the streets, and you know, if you ever live on the streets and have to steal for food or steal to live, living on the streets is hell.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: And I thought well, you know, this is interesting.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: You mean to tell me that God would actually forgive all the stupid things I've done, all the wrongs I've done, and all I've got to do is ask him to forgive me and he will.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: And then, after I do that, then I have to ask God's son, jesus, to come into my heart.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: I said that don't make any sense.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: How is he going to come into my heart?
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: You know, I mean I know and you said that.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: But when he comes in God's there, in the Spirit, he's going to lead the Spirit.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: And I said this doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: He said well, bruce, all I can tell you is you want brand new start.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: I said I want a brand new start.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: I've screwed up my life really bad, and the possibility that all my sins are going to be forgiven, every one of them, that just doesn't make.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: Why would he do that?
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: He said well, not only will he forgive your sins, bruce, he's going to forget them.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: I said now that really doesn't make any sense.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: Why would God forget my sins?
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: I said because he loves you.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: I said well, if God loves me that much, I might be willing to do that.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: If you ask God, he'll forgive you.
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: It's called repentance.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: If you repent, then, and only then, after you do that, can you ask God, jesus, to come in your heart, and God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit will come in.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: So anyway, one morning I was in the shower after a couple of weeks living with him and I was thinking about everything we talked about and I was washing him.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: I had really long hair almost down to my waist and I was thinking about gosh, it would be nice to have a brand new start in life.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: I just, but just God.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: Why would he do that?
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Why would he forgive me, you know, and why would he give me a brand new start?
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Because Gibb had told me that day, or the day before, the day before, maybe a couple days.
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: He said that not only does God forgive your sins you committed in the past, bruce, he forgave the sins you commit today, and it gets better than that.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: He'll forgive the sins that you have in the future, just because you repented.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: You ask him to come in your heart.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: He will do that.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: I said that.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: Why would he do that?
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: He said he kept saying that God loves you.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: I said well, I believe in the Creator.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: I've always believed in the Creator, but I don't believe and have struggled with this issue of Jesus and the Holy Spirit stuff.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: So he said well, all I can tell you, bruce, is that's what happened to me.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: He shared his testimony to me how he became a believer.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: So, standing in the shower, rinsing off the shampoo out of my hair, I started talking to God.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: I said well, god, I believe in you.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: I called him Wonka Tonka.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: I said I believe in you.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: He calls him God and I can call you Wonka Tonka.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: He said, because that's my understanding of who God is, he's the creator.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: I want to repent.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: I said I'm tired of being a drunk, I'm tired of being a bum, I'm tired of stealing, I'm tired of being just an absolute nothing.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: And I'm really sorry, I truly am.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I want to stop being a drunk, I want to stop being a sinner.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I'm stopped being a bum.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: And he said that you'll forgive me if I ask you, and then I can ask your son, jesus, to come into my heart.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: So, god, I'm going to do this.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: It's two steps in my process.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: I said first, I want to ask you to forgive me.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: And I said I can't name all the sins because I can't even remember some of them.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: But he said that I just need to do, with the best of my ability, ask God to forgive me for all the wrongs I've done up to that point in my life, and that you would not only forgive them, but you'd forget them.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: I said that's what I want.
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: I want you to forgive my sins.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I want you to forget my sins in order to give me a brand new start in life.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: And I asked him and prayed that.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: I prayed those words.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: I said okay, god.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: Now this is the part that I'm struggling with, because I don't have any faith.
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: I just have the faith to believe that Jesus would come inside of us and save me.
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: I said so, I'll say the words, but you have to give me the faith, because I don't have faith.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, how do you expect me to believe that?
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't know how you can come inside of me and save me.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: That doesn't make any sense.
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: But I have to have faith.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: So I don't have any faith.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: But Gibbs said I can ask you to give me the faith that you would let Jesus come in and save me, that you would let the Holy Spirit dwell in me and that God would be my heart and from that point on, every time I made a mistake I could come and repent and do the same thing and again you would erase that sin and help me keep and not sin anymore.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: So I bowed my head in the shower and said okay, god, this is your port.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: And I prayed the exact words that this guy named Gib Rossing.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: He was a Lutheran pastor in a Lutheran church that I had met and he said that I need to ask Jesus.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: I've repented of my sins.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: I'm really sorry.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be a sinner anymore.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: Will you let Jesus come into my heart?
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: I want you to come into my heart and I want you to save me the way Gib said.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: I'm asking you, I want you to change my life and make me something to do that.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: I made a deal with God when I was in the shower.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: They tell me now that you're not supposed to do that, and I read that I don't do that anymore.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: But I said, okay, god, if you'll do that, if you'll forgive me of my sins, if you'll do that, I will spend the rest of my life doing whatever you want me to do.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: I'll go wherever you want me to go.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: I'll say whatever you want me to do.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: I'll go wherever you want me to go.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: I'll say whatever you want me to say.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: I'll tell my story, what you did for me, if you'll do that for me, and I said, amen.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Well, nothing happened.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: I didn't hear any choir singing, I didn't hear any lights flash or anything, and so I turned off the shower.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: I thought, hmm, that's interesting.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: But one thing I noticed is, for the first time in years and years and years, I didn't feel like wanting to drink and I reached for a towel.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: And I reached for a towel, opened the shower door.
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: I looked at my hand and it was steady as can be.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: I grabbed the towel and I started drying off my arms and my chest and my hair and my skin was still brown because I thought I was going to turn white if I become a Christian and I wonder if he'll save Indians.
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: And so I dressed up really quick and I ran upstairs and I heard Beth say Hurry up, bruce, we're ready for breakfast.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: And I said I came up and he said We've got to pray.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: Then I asked God, I don't have any faith to believe that Jesus can save me the way you said that he can, I said.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: But I did.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: I said those actual words.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: I said Jesus, will you come into my heart?
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: Will you save me and will you change me?
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Will you make me a new person?
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: I said.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: I didn't hear any bells or whistles or lights or anything, any choir singing.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: But look at this.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: I showed them my hands and they were just as steady as can be.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: I said I think I'm a Christian, I really you.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: And of course they hugged and cried and I mean Gibb the pastor.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: They run up to his bathroom.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: I've got something for you.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: He went up there and he gave me a New American Standard Bible, a hardcover of it.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: He said, bruce, I want you to know that.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: I said, what's this?
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: He said this is a Bible.
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: I said, well, yeah.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: I said well, I'll read this.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: He said, bruce, I want you to know something From this point on in your life every answer to every need you ever have can be found in this book.
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: You just got to read it.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: No-transcript.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: But I had a high school girlfriend that was going to go to Oklahoma Baptist University and I talked to her and told her of my salvation experience and she was a Christian already and I don't know why she even dated me in high school, but she did.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: But she said why don't you come to Oklahoma and go to school there?
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: So I said, well, thanks, I was never a dumb person.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: So I called my tribe and back in the early 70s our tribe was all the tribes were really trying to educate their people because we were so uneducated.
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: So I went to college.
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: I had been to college three years earlier but I had flunked out or dropped out because I was drinking too much.
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: So, anyway, I ended up at OBU, walked on there six, seven months after being a Christian and I thought, holy cow, this is crazy.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: I had long hair and Levi's and Levi jacket and I walked around the campus and this guy picked me up and he said what are you doing here?
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: I said, well, I come here to go to college.
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: He said, well, you have to have money to go to college.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: I said, yeah, my tribe was going to pay my way here and I have to register.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: I said, well, I did the preliminary thing and they're going to let me under probation, but anyway, he said, well, let's go check.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: So he took me up to the office and, sure enough, my name was there, and so they put me in, because college wasn't open yet and I had hitchhiked all the way from Portland, oregon, down to Shawnee, oklahoma, which is 30 or 40 miles east of Oklahoma City.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I had to hitchhike down there to save what little money I had.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: And I got down there.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, bruce, bruce, we got to stop.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Man, this story is fascinating.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: We got to stop.
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: Can we stop here and then pick up and do another podcast about everything else that happened after you got saved?
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Can we do it another day and let my listeners hear all the things that happened after you became a pastor and a missionary to your own people?
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah, okay, all right.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: Well, this whole story has got me spellbound and I've enjoyed hearing it and I want to hear everything that happened after you became a Christian and a pastor bivocational pastor and a missionary to your own people.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Bruce Plummer and you've been listening to his testimony and I've found it quite fascinating.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: And, bruce, I just want to tell you thank you for coming on to share that testimony.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: I love telling my story about what God can do for anybody out there, anybody to be saved.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: I hear you, brother, all right, you're listening to More Than Medicine.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: We'll be back next week, and may the Lord bless you real good.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry, dr Jackson's book, or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or their webpage at jacksonfamilyministrycom.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Production at bobsloancom.