Latest / WoT Spoilers / Nightfall & A Tale of Blood - The Gathering Storm chapters 4 & 5 - EP515

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Nightfall & A Tale of Blood - The Gathering Storm chapters 4 & 5 - EP515 · WoT Spoilers

0:12
Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
0:22
Speaker 2: Today's bullshit is brought to you by Gowen tra cand
0:25
Speaker 2: mm hmm.
0:26
Speaker 1: Gowan, can the worst of the Tracans go?
0:31
Speaker 2: Gotwen tracad got wind going? Ah God, He broods in
0:46
Speaker 2: like the recappiest expositionist, like it's just oh, it's so Gowan.
0:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this chapter, it's a short chapter. Not much
0:54
Speaker 1: goes on. Let's be honest.
0:56
Speaker 2: That's why we're doing two chapters today.
0:58
Speaker 1: That's what we're doing two chapters today. And I honestly
1:01
Speaker 1: don't have a lot to say. I went through this
1:02
Speaker 1: chapter and like, there's a few things to say about it,
1:04
Speaker 1: but there's not a lot in here unless unless, unless
1:10
Speaker 1: you go through with my favorite sorry second favorite bullshit
1:14
Speaker 1: theory in mind right, I will totally admit this. There's
1:17
Speaker 1: nothing to support this in the text except there is, right, Like,
1:22
Speaker 1: there's nothing definitive anywhere in the text but my head canon,
1:26
Speaker 1: which is not book canon. I want to make that
1:28
Speaker 1: really clear, like I am not changing what's in the book,
1:32
Speaker 1: but that Gowin and the Younglings were compelled by Massana
1:39
Speaker 1: to support the ambulance seat and this is the beginning
1:42
Speaker 1: of sequences with Gowen, where his thoughts seem to kind
1:47
Speaker 1: of support that. But yeah, he's being pulled in these
1:50
Speaker 1: two directions mentally, and like it's almost three directions, right,
1:54
Speaker 1: because it seems like he doesn't want to be where
1:57
Speaker 1: he is and he either wants to be supporting Alane
2:00
Speaker 1: or in the tower of Sporting Igwayne with the rest
2:04
Speaker 1: of his friends, but he can't and he doesn't know why.
2:07
Speaker 1: And I think it's in the text, and I think
2:09
Speaker 1: the answer is that he's being compelled.
2:12
Speaker 2: And I am super here for that today because I'm
2:15
Speaker 2: kind of a shitty mood and Gwin is pissing me
2:20
Speaker 2: the fuck off. And ordinarily I tend to side with
2:23
Speaker 2: the let's not deny the man his agency. He just
2:26
Speaker 2: made bad choices. I tend to side with that argument.
2:28
Speaker 2: But for today, I'm just gonna lean into the other one.
2:32
Speaker 2: I want to lean in today into he was compelled
2:36
Speaker 2: and here's the evidence for it, because I think that
2:38
Speaker 2: sounds like way more fun because literally nothing interesting happens
2:42
Speaker 2: in this chapter at all otherwise, So I'm just yes
2:45
Speaker 2: ending this.
2:46
Speaker 1: And I'm talking about this was compulsion that happened way
2:49
Speaker 1: back during the Rebellion of the White the rebels the
2:53
Speaker 1: White Tower when when Baliita overthrew the Ambulin Suan and like,
2:58
Speaker 1: the younglings turned against their mentors in a very weird,
3:03
Speaker 1: very unprecedented move that split the tower, which is exactly
3:08
Speaker 1: exactly what the forsaken we're trying to do. We know
3:10
Speaker 1: Masana was there. Danell's part of the group that deposed Suan, right,
3:16
Speaker 1: so she wasn't she was part of the deposition. She
3:18
Speaker 1: was doing other things that caused that battle to happen,
3:21
Speaker 1: other things that cause that split to happen. She's supporting Alida,
3:25
Speaker 1: and she is compelling the young lings to fight back
3:27
Speaker 1: against their masters.
3:29
Speaker 2: There's even a moment where he is described as being
3:32
Speaker 2: in a daze, like his eyes are glazed over when
3:34
Speaker 2: he's talking to Min when he lets them all out.
3:37
Speaker 2: And like, obviously we've always attributed it to just the
3:41
Speaker 2: probable head injuries and just general emotional trauma of like
3:45
Speaker 2: getting through battle, because he's got like blood coming down
3:47
Speaker 2: his face and like, you know, he's been through the
3:49
Speaker 2: battle at that point. So it's easy to ascribe the
3:51
Speaker 2: glazed die thousand year od stair to that, but it
3:55
Speaker 2: also is how people are described when they've just been
3:58
Speaker 2: hit with a whammy of compulsion.
4:00
Speaker 1: So yeah, right that maybe he's fighting and that's why
4:04
Speaker 1: he lets them out, or because maybe it doesn't or
4:07
Speaker 1: somehow he in his own head figures out what I'm
4:10
Speaker 1: supporting the ameral in and letting out that Suon isn't
4:14
Speaker 1: necessarily going against those orders, right, like something or something
4:18
Speaker 1: like that, Like that's that's sort of how I'm thinking
4:19
Speaker 1: of how he was able to let her out but
4:21
Speaker 1: like still can't leave and is still fighting for the Amberlin.
4:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, it's an out there theory. It's a
4:28
Speaker 2: head canon theory. But we're gonna look for evidence with
4:31
Speaker 2: full excitement and just we're staking out turf on this hill.
4:35
Speaker 2: We'll see if it's worth tying for.
4:37
Speaker 1: So this is Nightfall chapter icon is the Wheel and Snake?
4:42
Speaker 1: Why that chapter icon? I don't know why that chapter.
4:46
Speaker 1: I mean it's just the most generic one. I think
4:48
Speaker 1: it's like, this is a Wheel of Time chapter? Right,
4:54
Speaker 1: and then Nightfall helped me out here because it's nighttime,
4:57
Speaker 1: Like I don't.
4:58
Speaker 2: Get it, things are getting dark, the night is dark
5:05
Speaker 2: and full of terrors.
5:08
Speaker 1: I don't know, but we did not like this chapter. Yes,
5:12
Speaker 1: you can't tell it is not on our top down list,
5:15
Speaker 1: for sure. Golwin watched the sun burn the clouds to
5:19
Speaker 1: death in the west, the final light fading. That haze
5:22
Speaker 1: of perpetual gloom kept the sun itself shrouded, just as
5:26
Speaker 1: it hid the stars from his sight at night. Today,
5:29
Speaker 1: the clouds were unnaturally high in the air. Often Dragon
5:31
Speaker 1: Mount's tip would be hidden on cloudy days, but this
5:34
Speaker 1: thick gray haze hovered high enough that most of the
5:37
Speaker 1: time it barely brushed the mountain's jagged, broken tip. Let's
5:41
Speaker 1: engage them, she whispered from where he crouched beside Gowain
5:44
Speaker 1: on the hilltop. Gwain glanced away from the sunset, back
5:47
Speaker 1: towards the small village below. It should have been still,
5:50
Speaker 1: save perhaps for a and well said, for a goddamn
5:55
Speaker 1: man checking on his livestock. Save perhaps for a good
5:58
Speaker 1: man checking on.
5:59
Speaker 2: His total Ready, goddamn goddamn field.
6:08
Speaker 1: Thanks Collen, Well, whatever, it's okay, do you want to
6:16
Speaker 1: finish that pair? Wow? Disrespect the disc the gowin disrespect
6:28
Speaker 1: really mean to him.
6:32
Speaker 2: The Gowen lovers out there are not happy, all two
6:35
Speaker 2: of them.
6:39
Speaker 1: That's all right, they take it out of their chairs.
6:40
Speaker 1: We're safe, okay.
6:46
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think the reason it's nightfall is because
6:49
Speaker 2: that's literally just telling us what's happening. That's literally just okay,
6:52
Speaker 2: it literally.
6:54
Speaker 1: Really really it's like that again, boring title, boring chapter,
6:58
Speaker 1: boring premise. It's NiFe. Gowin is watching Gareth Brynne's troops.
7:04
Speaker 1: So there they seeing these troops like in the village,
7:06
Speaker 1: they've got three stars on their chests. The army was
7:09
Speaker 1: led by Isidae, right, so we all know this is
7:13
Speaker 1: the rebel army, right, they hunkered in. We saw them
7:16
Speaker 1: hunker in, and they're kind of patrolling outside the area.
7:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're looking for Gawain's people because they're you know,
7:25
Speaker 2: making attacks on their scouts because they just have general
7:29
Speaker 2: scouts and Gawain's people are pestering the scouts and so
7:32
Speaker 2: the scouts are like, hey, pestering it means some of
7:34
Speaker 2: us are dying. We don't like that. So they're out
7:38
Speaker 2: surveying the countryside doing like general military occupation shit, and
7:42
Speaker 2: the villagers are not having a great time, but like,
7:44
Speaker 2: no one's getting like too harassed and it's fine. And
7:49
Speaker 2: apparently sometimes when there's children, Gawaen chooses to engage with
7:53
Speaker 2: the enemy anyway, and just fight them off, even if
7:56
Speaker 2: there's literally children in the street, but not this time
7:59
Speaker 2: for just reasons. But like, apparently he's been doing that
8:04
Speaker 2: in the.
8:04
Speaker 1: Past because it's a pattern. He doesn't want to do
8:06
Speaker 1: this one because he's done three in a row.
8:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, so apparently other times children is fine. He's literally
8:12
Speaker 2: been putting children in danger like war crimes, trick hand
8:16
Speaker 2: like whatever. But you know, Gareth Brynn's people are behaving
8:20
Speaker 2: very honorably because he has not been compulsed yet. Brynn
8:25
Speaker 2: will be compulsed later in the plot, but at this
8:27
Speaker 2: point his people are all behaving the good proper upright
8:30
Speaker 2: and door and soldiers should, and they're being very respectful
8:33
Speaker 2: as they look for literal enemies amongst the villagers.
8:36
Speaker 1: And he's got what three hundred people that are moving
8:38
Speaker 1: around at Gareth's brynd giant army.
8:41
Speaker 2: Yeah against fifty thousand against fifty thousand. He's like, I
8:45
Speaker 2: feel like the plot to kill me is still in play.
8:50
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure the plot to kill me is still
8:52
Speaker 2: very much happening. It's like, you think, you think, you
8:56
Speaker 2: think that these numbers are ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous that
9:00
Speaker 2: he is still accepting this kind of risk for his men.
9:04
Speaker 2: It's ridiculous.
9:05
Speaker 1: And again that's my pro compulsion, Like why is he
9:08
Speaker 1: taking these risks because he's being compelled to obay the Amberlin,
9:11
Speaker 1: and the Amberlin has put him out and has ordered
9:15
Speaker 1: him to take these risks. Right, That's the thing is
9:17
Speaker 1: she's ordering him to take these risks because she wants.
9:19
Speaker 2: Him dead, right, and she doesn't care if the other
9:22
Speaker 2: ones get the other younglings get killed. And his motive,
9:25
Speaker 2: his top of mind motivation, moment to moment, is protecting
9:29
Speaker 2: his men, right, Like that's what he thinks he's doing
9:31
Speaker 2: on a minute to minute basis.
9:33
Speaker 1: You know.
9:33
Speaker 2: The larger thing is he's worried about Elaine and a
9:36
Speaker 2: Gray and blah blah blah. But like, minute to minute,
9:37
Speaker 2: he's worried about his men. This is a terribly risky
9:40
Speaker 2: thing for him to be doing with them, and he's
9:42
Speaker 2: still not making the obvious choice to defect from a
9:46
Speaker 2: useless war.
9:47
Speaker 1: Right, take a three hundred young lings join the other
9:50
Speaker 1: Ey said eye right, be like, hey, we made a mistake. Really, like, guys,
9:56
Speaker 1: we're trying to be murdered by by our side, like
9:59
Speaker 1: instead of and he leaves by himself, right, like take
10:01
Speaker 1: take your people with you.
10:03
Speaker 2: Well he thinks that they would kill him for being
10:05
Speaker 2: a trader, which, like I don't know if that's true.
10:09
Speaker 1: Well, this is where I think they might all be compelled,
10:21
Speaker 1: or at least a large portion of the leaders.
10:23
Speaker 2: Right, the ones who were at the tower that day.
10:25
Speaker 1: Massana had a long time to be Danell the isid
10:31
Speaker 1: eye and sneak in there, and you know the way
10:34
Speaker 1: kind of Varin does a little compulsion, a little bit
10:36
Speaker 1: of time going in and like sets her traps and
10:39
Speaker 1: sets it up, and now all of a sudden we've
10:40
Speaker 1: got fifteen twenty I sid ice wearing fealty to rand
10:43
Speaker 1: all at once. Masana can do it a lot faster,
10:46
Speaker 1: a lot more discreetly, and she can just weave a
10:50
Speaker 1: web of mirrors, walk down, you know, inverted, walk down
10:53
Speaker 1: to the men's quarters, compel them all. They couldn't see her,
10:58
Speaker 1: they couldn't feel her.
11:00
Speaker 2: Wow, just seed them all with When the time comes,
11:05
Speaker 2: q On Gowan tracand whatever he does, follow him, because
11:09
Speaker 2: then she doesn't have to tell them what to do specifically, Just.
11:12
Speaker 1: Like I think it's all followed the ambulance seat, right,
11:14
Speaker 1: That's why They would kill him if he rebelled, because
11:16
Speaker 1: they have this order. They know in their head he
11:18
Speaker 1: is breaking out, right, he's a tracan. What did your
11:21
Speaker 1: cans do? They break they break out, they break out.
11:24
Speaker 2: Well except for Elaine. I neve had to break out
11:26
Speaker 2: of that compulsion.
11:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but with the right prompting. She broke out
11:29
Speaker 1: of it because it was pretty lung.
11:30
Speaker 2: Now she didn't. She never remembers, she never thought, never remembered. No,
11:34
Speaker 2: there's a thing in her She talks about how disturbing
11:36
Speaker 2: it is that no matter how much Nined describes it,
11:38
Speaker 2: she can't remember any of it. Okay, but again that
11:41
Speaker 2: was a very different like short term, short term. Yeah, yeah,
11:46
Speaker 2: it was just a very different scale of compulsion.
11:48
Speaker 1: But the way he okay, this this quote here, Goalwin
11:52
Speaker 1: had thought he was over hammering Kulandin's deaths, right, Kulane Sorry, yeah, no,
12:01
Speaker 1: there's not sorry about that. Oh, Alan thought he was
12:04
Speaker 1: over hammer and Cooland's deaths. Right recently, however, his mind
12:09
Speaker 1: seemed determined to dredge those corpses up and carry them about.
12:13
Speaker 1: Why now after so long? Because he's beating the compulsion
12:17
Speaker 1: that made him do it, and he's confronting the fact
12:19
Speaker 1: that he killed his friends for the first time, because
12:23
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, he's like, you know what, fuck
12:26
Speaker 1: I killed them? Why did I do that? Oh? My god,
12:29
Speaker 1: that was terrible. I like. And so I think there's
12:32
Speaker 1: this moment where I think he's breaking free of the compulsion.
12:36
Speaker 1: Not fully right, because there's there's because this goes back
12:40
Speaker 1: to when he hears that Aguayn's the ambulance seat. All of
12:42
Speaker 1: a sudden he can go to her right when he
12:44
Speaker 1: couldn't before.
12:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thinking also about how he he's like, oh,
12:50
Speaker 2: it was so long ago. I'm like looking at the timeline, Like, dude,
12:53
Speaker 2: I think that was like a year ago. I don't
12:58
Speaker 2: think that that counts as a long time time.
13:01
Speaker 1: That's true. That's true.
13:02
Speaker 2: Like, I know you're young, but like, I'm pretty sure
13:04
Speaker 2: that going into a death fight with two of your
13:08
Speaker 2: mentors and all the other war stuff that happened that day,
13:12
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure a year is not a long time.
13:15
Speaker 1: Well, that goes with when he looks in this other
13:17
Speaker 1: man's eyes and he's aged, you know, because some men
13:20
Speaker 1: age over time and some may in age from experience, right,
13:24
Speaker 1: and this boy has grown up right, Well, Donin's going
13:27
Speaker 1: through those same experiences, so he's also aged in that year.
13:32
Speaker 1: And I think that when it says so long ago,
13:34
Speaker 1: I think it doesn't necessarily mean time so much as experience.
13:38
Speaker 1: So many experiences ago, so many five battles ago, so
13:41
Speaker 1: long ago.
13:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, but my point is like it also feels like
13:45
Speaker 2: coming out of a fugue state because you're compulsed, like
13:49
Speaker 2: time is distorted.
13:50
Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm arguing against my point there, shut up. I'm
13:55
Speaker 1: trying to help you exactly.
13:57
Speaker 2: I'm like, it doesn't seem like a long time, so
13:59
Speaker 2: I I'm being ungenerous or he was compelled and coming
14:05
Speaker 2: out of that fog, you know, you don't quite know
14:07
Speaker 2: how much time has passed when you come out of
14:09
Speaker 2: a fog. I know I'm used to being oppositional to you,
14:11
Speaker 2: but I'm actually trying to help this time. It's a
14:13
Speaker 2: new role for me.
14:15
Speaker 1: And then he starts thinking about Elaine, and he says
14:18
Speaker 1: her duty to and or outweighed her duty to the
14:20
Speaker 1: White Tower, right, which is just like, what about your
14:23
Speaker 1: duty to and or outweighing your duty to the White Tower,
14:27
Speaker 1: which is exactly what he thinks, right, And what of
14:29
Speaker 1: your duty and that's where it goes into the italics.
14:31
Speaker 1: And this is where I started to see this pattern
14:32
Speaker 1: where every time he's like almost arguing with himself about like, no,
14:38
Speaker 1: why am I still here? I have this duty to Elaine,
14:41
Speaker 1: I have this duty to the White Tower. I'm stuck.
14:44
Speaker 1: Why am I still here?
14:46
Speaker 2: Yeah?
14:47
Speaker 1: I don't understand. Yeah, just the way that his mother, right,
14:52
Speaker 1: Queen Morgaes didn't understand why she was still in love
14:56
Speaker 1: with Ravin.
14:57
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, she was totally doing that same back and forth.
15:01
Speaker 2: And I mean, I have It's hard to communicate a
15:06
Speaker 2: family resemblance in writing, but Gawain and Morgaze are definitely related, right,
15:11
Speaker 2: Like the Tracande family has some very believable levels of
15:16
Speaker 2: family similarity in the way that they think and speak
15:20
Speaker 2: and interact with people, and like they they really do
15:23
Speaker 2: seemly more Gaze and Gowen really think the same.
15:26
Speaker 1: They all inhale their veil, They all.
15:28
Speaker 2: Inhale their veil, and they all get compelled by a
15:31
Speaker 2: forsaken alf. He's keeping in the family tradition to get
15:36
Speaker 2: compelled in order to keep with.
15:37
Speaker 1: The pattern, but not Golled Well.
15:43
Speaker 2: No, because he's too autistic for that shit.
15:46
Speaker 1: And He's not technically directly related to more Gaze.
15:50
Speaker 2: This is true. He is not actually from more Gaze.
15:53
Speaker 2: More Gaze is only his stepmom. She only gave him culture.
15:56
Speaker 2: She did not give him literal genetics. She imparted her culture.
16:00
Speaker 1: But you know, which is the reason why Randon Laane
16:03
Speaker 1: is not as gross as it could be. Mm hmmmmmmm yeah.
16:08
Speaker 1: What then was he still doing fighting a battle he
16:11
Speaker 1: didn't care about helping a side by all accounts, was
16:13
Speaker 1: opposed to the one Lane and Agwayne had chosen big flashing,
16:17
Speaker 1: fucking warning lines. Why would you be doing that?
16:21
Speaker 3: Yeah?
16:21
Speaker 2: I did, like Sanderson telling us the audience, I understand
16:25
Speaker 2: that this is some bullshit. We're going to be resolving
16:27
Speaker 2: this like let's like, I get it, I get it,
16:30
Speaker 2: I see the problem. We're diagnosing it. I will be
16:33
Speaker 2: fixing it here here.
16:34
Speaker 1: And here outside of the compulsion headcan And it does
16:37
Speaker 1: seem to be that Sanderson is saying to us, I
16:40
Speaker 1: don't know what the fucking Robert Jordan was thinking in
16:42
Speaker 1: the situation. I'm going to try and do something about it.
16:44
Speaker 1: I really don't like, what the hell is he still
16:46
Speaker 1: doing here? I don't know. I can't come up with
16:48
Speaker 1: a motivation for it.
16:49
Speaker 2: I'm doing my best, right, He's like, Okay, so this
16:52
Speaker 2: is the situation I'm going to have to write me
16:54
Speaker 2: out of.
16:54
Speaker 1: Right in the way that all these early chapters sort
16:57
Speaker 1: of have this sort of subtle nod to the reader
17:00
Speaker 1: to tell us what he's going to be doing with Gowen,
17:04
Speaker 1: it really seems to be that that Sanderson is saying, yeah,
17:07
Speaker 1: I don't know why he's on this side. I'm gonna
17:09
Speaker 1: get him on the other side, and then we'll go
17:11
Speaker 1: from there. Because it doesn't I mean, Gotwin leaving, you know,
17:15
Speaker 1: aside from the compulsion argument, just when he does for
17:19
Speaker 1: that news doesn't seem to really make a lot of
17:21
Speaker 1: sense other than I just love conquers all and he's
17:24
Speaker 1: able to go to Lagwayne when he finds out she's
17:27
Speaker 1: right there.
17:29
Speaker 2: I mean, you might as well say it's tavern right right,
17:32
Speaker 2: like it's for a plot. I like the compulsion head
17:37
Speaker 2: canon if for plot is the best we've got otherwise
17:40
Speaker 2: because yeah, all right, so yeah, Gowen thinks about how
17:43
Speaker 2: he's the only smart youngling who thinks about big issues
17:46
Speaker 2: and everyone else is just a mindless dummy who follows
17:49
Speaker 2: and one did as the white Tower and the ambulance
17:51
Speaker 2: seat commanded.
17:52
Speaker 1: It's like Compulsion has fried their brains or something.
17:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's the only one who's realizing that they've
17:57
Speaker 2: all like, you know, drunk the flavor aid and are
18:01
Speaker 2: you know, ready to plummet off a cliff.
18:04
Speaker 1: And perhaps he needs to be less compelled because he's
18:06
Speaker 1: the leader and so he needs to be able to
18:08
Speaker 1: think strategy and stuff like that, whereas they're more heavily
18:10
Speaker 1: compelled because they're the followers.
18:13
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, I because that's the other thing too that
18:16
Speaker 2: has always bothered me, always bothered me about the young
18:19
Speaker 2: wings is how they all just fall into formation as
18:23
Speaker 2: good little foot soldiers that don't mind dying for the tower.
18:26
Speaker 2: I'm like, you're supposed to be warders, and warders tend
18:31
Speaker 2: to tell iyes to die to shove it up their
18:33
Speaker 2: ass when they're being stupid. So like, this makes no
18:36
Speaker 2: sense to me that men who are being trained to
18:38
Speaker 2: be able to colonize to die on her bullshit would
18:41
Speaker 2: just so happily drop into a little like infantry death
18:44
Speaker 2: squad on behalf of the tower. As an institution that
18:47
Speaker 2: has just never sat right with me. Sae and I Compulsion,
18:52
Speaker 2: where she just yeah, she just went in invisible to
18:55
Speaker 2: the barracks and just like threw a net into all
18:58
Speaker 2: of the shell She could have done it. Their dreams,
19:00
Speaker 2: they all are in the same place. It would have
19:02
Speaker 2: been really easy to infiltrate their dreams from such physical
19:05
Speaker 2: proximity and be like you all now just have a
19:09
Speaker 2: dead man switch or whatever, like not a dead message,
19:12
Speaker 2: but like you all now are just you, just like
19:15
Speaker 2: frontal lobotomy, just a complete lobotomy on your critical thinking
19:18
Speaker 2: and curiosity.
19:20
Speaker 1: And you have a central compulsion. I don't think of
19:25
Speaker 1: a different word priority, you know, tenant you're gonna follow,
19:28
Speaker 1: which is obey the amberlance.
19:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's you know, like Robert Jordan explains to
19:34
Speaker 2: us with the Landron thing, like if it's an order
19:37
Speaker 2: that leans into what you were going to do already,
19:39
Speaker 2: it's much more likely to take and never be able
19:42
Speaker 2: to be taken out. They are training to obey. Iys
19:46
Speaker 2: to die. Who obey the ambulance seat it's in their
19:49
Speaker 2: nature to say, well, of course I would obey the
19:50
Speaker 2: ambulance like in general, like obviously, like that's not against
19:53
Speaker 2: their nature. But like it gets to this weird fanatical
19:58
Speaker 2: not fanatical, but just like so incurious. It's just so incurious.
20:01
Speaker 2: Warders are shown time and time again to be very curious, intelligent,
20:05
Speaker 2: independent people, and the younglings just aren't. And I genuinely
20:11
Speaker 2: convulsion makes more sense to explain the younglings as a
20:14
Speaker 2: body to me.
20:15
Speaker 1: So he's having this whole conversation with Rashar, that's the
20:20
Speaker 1: guy who he's like, he's young, but he looks old, right,
20:22
Speaker 1: because he's had all these experiences.
20:24
Speaker 2: Which he's definitely describing himself because none of the others
20:28
Speaker 2: killed both of the teachers. There's not that many teachers
20:30
Speaker 2: to go around, right, you know. Gowin really like took
20:34
Speaker 2: as hard a hit of that as anyone in the
20:36
Speaker 2: youngest when he describes the others, he's describing himself on
20:38
Speaker 2: a good day, you know.
20:41
Speaker 1: So he says, basically to him, you should be you
20:44
Speaker 1: should have become a warder to some new I said
20:46
Speaker 1: eye by now, like you shouldn't be out here fighting
20:48
Speaker 1: these battles. It doesn't make any sense, right, And in
20:50
Speaker 1: his head he again thinks, and I should be back
20:52
Speaker 1: and came one with Lane again. I think that's him
20:55
Speaker 1: fighting that compulsion. I should be there. I don't understand
20:58
Speaker 1: why I'm stuck here.
21:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like that that he's the only one
21:03
Speaker 2: waking up and he's wondering why everyone else has no
21:05
Speaker 2: interest in seeing what's causing the shadows on the wall.
21:08
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. And I feel like that gives Gowin, you know,
21:11
Speaker 1: you always complain about this theory taking his agency away,
21:15
Speaker 1: and I think a long ways that gives him his
21:16
Speaker 1: agency back. Right, He's fighting off the compulsion in the
21:19
Speaker 1: same way that we give more Gaze her credit for
21:21
Speaker 1: fighting off the compulsion, right and taking her own way.
21:24
Speaker 1: He fights off this compulsion, he breaks free, He's able
21:27
Speaker 1: to escape. He's able to then go support Elaine and
21:30
Speaker 1: makes some really fucking stupid Raguayne and makes some really
21:34
Speaker 1: fucking stupid mashit and mistakes right, like, which is fine,
21:37
Speaker 1: Like those are his mistakes to make.
21:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, the question is does he break completely free or
21:42
Speaker 2: does he just get a little bit free but still
21:45
Speaker 2: have a fanatical need to protect the Amorlin against Oh. Yes,
21:50
Speaker 2: Like that's a different conversation.
21:52
Speaker 1: That is a different conversation because and I think that's
21:54
Speaker 1: one that we'll have to look at as we go
21:55
Speaker 1: through the next couple of books, because his whole compulsion
21:59
Speaker 1: to protect a gwayn does lead to him sort of
22:02
Speaker 1: doing some stuff outside of her bedchamber and breaking some
22:04
Speaker 1: like that whole plot line where he's like keeps showing
22:07
Speaker 1: up at her bedchamber and trying to protect her, and
22:10
Speaker 1: he triggers her trap the first time, and then the
22:12
Speaker 1: second time he saves her life, and like that's really
22:14
Speaker 1: important and like a big part of his plot and
22:16
Speaker 1: their plot, and like, what if a big reason why
22:20
Speaker 1: he just ignores all of her requests to leave him
22:22
Speaker 1: a fuck alone is because he has this little bit
22:25
Speaker 1: of compulsion left over. Because after all, even more Gase,
22:28
Speaker 1: after more Gase breaks free and makes her leaving moment right,
22:32
Speaker 1: she still says she craves his touch and would go
22:35
Speaker 1: back to him in a second if if he calls right,
22:38
Speaker 1: And like, even as much as she hates him, that
22:40
Speaker 1: compulsion is still there and she can ignore it and
22:43
Speaker 1: overcome it and it becomes less over time. And I
22:45
Speaker 1: think that's basically where we have to imagine Godwin's walking
22:49
Speaker 1: away moment from the Younglings to very similar to more
22:52
Speaker 1: Gase walking away from my Vien and sort of then
22:56
Speaker 1: think about the timeline and how long it takes her
22:58
Speaker 1: to really overcome that compulsion and truly be rid of
23:00
Speaker 1: it and to the point where it's not important anymore,
23:03
Speaker 1: you know, a solid year or two.
23:05
Speaker 3: Yeah.
23:06
Speaker 2: So I'm also thinking about how Agwaine's reaction to his
23:11
Speaker 2: bad behavior is to lean harder into being the Amberlin
23:15
Speaker 2: and to pull away from him as a woman, when
23:18
Speaker 2: like that is, if anything, going to make it worse,
23:22
Speaker 2: because the Amberline is who he has to obey. So
23:24
Speaker 2: when she says you need to see me as Amberlin
23:26
Speaker 2: first and woman second, if this theory holds, like that's
23:31
Speaker 2: the worst thing she could have possibly said, right right, Like,
23:36
Speaker 2: so yeah, we should keep an eye out for that
23:38
Speaker 2: because I am curious how much he is breaking free
23:42
Speaker 2: because you're right with Margaze, it takes a very long
23:44
Speaker 2: time before she can't even tell Tollin Voor this is
23:47
Speaker 2: what's going on with me, Like, this is how the
23:51
Speaker 2: compulsion is left in my brain. So with Gowain not
23:56
Speaker 2: having that time or that awareness, that's we're gonna have
24:01
Speaker 2: to track that. We're gonna have to really keep an
24:03
Speaker 2: eye on how this Because vanon de Dread has been
24:06
Speaker 2: doing great.
24:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, Van and Dreads held up really well up until
24:09
Speaker 1: the point where he's not right.
24:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, But it's been doing great with gathering evidence.
24:14
Speaker 2: So I think that we we have the ability to
24:16
Speaker 2: gather evidence if it exists, and we can do that.
24:18
Speaker 2: We can keep an eye out for that, and it'll
24:19
Speaker 2: be a nice way to keep gowan chapters interesting.
24:25
Speaker 1: I like the way you phrase that.
24:28
Speaker 2: And with less than half an hour on the clock,
24:30
Speaker 2: we are done with that chapter.
24:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has some like some misconceptions about how the rebble.
24:37
Speaker 1: He's like, I don't understand how the rebels are getting
24:38
Speaker 1: food without supply lines. It's like gateways. I don't know
24:41
Speaker 1: how to stand and how they got here at gateways.
24:43
Speaker 1: It's it's under the sauce. Oh, and then one last quote.
24:47
Speaker 1: It was enough to make a man think the Ambulan
24:50
Speaker 1: just wanted him and the other young wings out of
24:52
Speaker 1: the way. Before Newmay as well as Gowan had suspected
24:54
Speaker 1: that was the case. Now he was certain, and then
24:57
Speaker 1: italicized again. And yet you continue, you to follow her orders,
25:02
Speaker 1: he thought to himself. He shook his head like shaking
25:05
Speaker 1: off compulsion. Right, he has this whole thought about like,
25:09
Speaker 1: I can't believe him. Still, she clearly wants us dead.
25:12
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure before, and now I'm certain, And yet god,
25:15
Speaker 1: I still follow her orders. Why am I following the
25:17
Speaker 1: orders of someone who wants me dead? Who would follow
25:19
Speaker 1: the orders of someone who is you are certain? Once
25:23
Speaker 1: you dead, you would rebel, you would leave.
25:26
Speaker 2: These acronize over that decision for this law, right? Yeah, yeah,
25:36
Speaker 2: go and compulse trick hand last line light.
25:40
Speaker 1: I wish I could see the stars. He can't see
25:42
Speaker 1: clearly because he's compelled. There is. His vision is obscured
25:46
Speaker 1: by the compulsion. He doesn't have direction, there's no north star.
25:51
Speaker 2: He's lost sight of his guiding Yeah, exactly, I can't navigate.
25:56
Speaker 2: He can't navigate because he can't see the.
25:58
Speaker 1: Stars, right, which I think that's a true assembly, whether
26:02
Speaker 1: you're following the theory or not.
26:03
Speaker 2: But like, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, he's literally lost
26:06
Speaker 2: his navigational stars. Oh my god, that is yep, And
26:10
Speaker 2: that's the one cheer. You're welcome.
26:14
Speaker 1: Hopefully you enjoyed that fun ride and ridiculous theory with us.
26:18
Speaker 1: I certainly did.
26:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's fun, all right. So moving on to
26:36
Speaker 2: the very cheerfully titled Tale of Bloody.
26:42
Speaker 1: Blood. So okay, wait, what's the tale is? This just
26:45
Speaker 1: Simmarog's tales about what I'm going to do to all
26:47
Speaker 1: the people around her, or like what tale of blood?
26:50
Speaker 2: It's the blood transfusion, gotcha, yeah, blood transfusion weave, it's
26:54
Speaker 2: a tale of blood.
26:56
Speaker 1: I'm curious what substances you think she was using for that?
27:02
Speaker 2: I mean, right, because she because she talks about how
27:05
Speaker 2: she managed to get a man to live for an hour.
27:07
Speaker 2: So clearly she was using something that in theory was
27:10
Speaker 2: like the correct density and salinity or whatever to like
27:14
Speaker 2: flow through the vascular.
27:16
Speaker 1: System and somehow transmit oxygen, right, because like you can't
27:21
Speaker 1: stay alive for an hour without some sort of oxygen
27:23
Speaker 1: transmission through your right exactly.
27:26
Speaker 2: So like clearly she was trying stuff that could work
27:32
Speaker 2: in like be part of like a transfusion you know, solution.
27:36
Speaker 2: But also presumably she just tried other ship because she
27:39
Speaker 2: was curious about like turbulent flow or whatever.
27:43
Speaker 1: I feel like her studies are very much like the
27:46
Speaker 1: Nazi studies, where it's like, well, okay, let me put
27:48
Speaker 1: it this way. This myth is based on the legend
27:51
Speaker 1: of that happening in World War Two.
27:54
Speaker 2: Sure, sure the myth of the nazis doing anything remotely
28:01
Speaker 2: helpful for medical science, that's not sure. Actually, they did
28:04
Speaker 2: a couple of really unformy They helped create a lot
28:07
Speaker 2: of illustrations that were used in medical education for a
28:11
Speaker 2: very long time. A lot of the illustrations that people
28:14
Speaker 2: were trained on were illustrations made by Nazi doctors and
28:17
Speaker 2: artists with people who did not consent to be turned
28:20
Speaker 2: into medical texts. Right, Right, But that's way less talked.
28:26
Speaker 1: About than the experiments.
28:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like no, sewing twins together and trying to
28:31
Speaker 2: change people's eye color, none of that was remotely helpful.
28:35
Speaker 1: Right, didn't lead to any sort of like yeah knowledge.
28:38
Speaker 2: Base, Like I will, I will refer you all to
28:42
Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards where they actually did. Wow, I'm totally
28:46
Speaker 2: spacing his name, the horrible doctor, the Nazi doctor. Which
28:50
Speaker 2: one was that Mangla? Thank you, thank you. Behind the
28:54
Speaker 2: Bastards did do a I believe, four part series on
29:00
Speaker 2: Mangala after much requests, and it is not what you think,
29:04
Speaker 2: but it's also worse. There's definitely a couple of scenes
29:08
Speaker 2: from those episodes that are stuck in my head Rentfree
29:10
Speaker 2: and I kind of wish I'd never heard them. But
29:13
Speaker 2: if you want some good information about what the myth
29:17
Speaker 2: is based on and how the myth has propagated. Like
29:20
Speaker 2: one interesting thing I learned from that is that way
29:22
Speaker 2: more people claim to have been personally selected by Mangola
29:26
Speaker 2: than could mathematically have been selected by him, Like just
29:30
Speaker 2: more people at more locations across more years. Like it's
29:33
Speaker 2: literally impossible for him to have been in all those
29:36
Speaker 2: places for all those hours, Like it's just not possible.
29:39
Speaker 2: But all these people very vividly remember it. And so
29:42
Speaker 2: there's all this stuff about how collective memory works and
29:45
Speaker 2: like how myth making happens, and that is so.
29:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, deal with this story that we're talking about right now.
29:53
Speaker 2: We're talking about samarag.
29:55
Speaker 1: No, I mean the myth fading the legends.
29:57
Speaker 2: Yes that yeah, to return to the very cheerful tale.
30:02
Speaker 1: Of blood well blood blood which wind finders And no,
30:08
Speaker 1: that's a Blacksmith puzzle.
30:09
Speaker 2: No, it's the birds.
30:11
Speaker 1: I do not have the birds in mine.
30:13
Speaker 2: Oh I have the birds, I have the seagulls.
30:16
Speaker 1: I have the Oh let me show you really quick,
30:19
Speaker 1: do you see?
30:20
Speaker 3: Oh?
30:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the Blacksmith puzzle for sure. But no,
30:23
Speaker 2: if I show.
30:25
Speaker 1: You interesting, Now, let's let's see what the Internet claims
30:31
Speaker 1: is at.
30:31
Speaker 2: Top and I this is the This is the green
30:35
Speaker 2: cover paperback. This is not the Daryl K. Sweet version.
30:39
Speaker 2: This is the reissue because of the show coming out.
30:43
Speaker 1: The Stars in Moon is what the you've got?
30:46
Speaker 2: I've got a star in the middle and two birds.
30:50
Speaker 1: The Internet says it's the star and moon, which is
30:52
Speaker 1: the cod Swain.
30:54
Speaker 2: Oh, that would also make a lot of sense. But no, this,
30:58
Speaker 2: this version that I have is the seagulls.
31:01
Speaker 1: What is going on with this chapter header? We've got
31:04
Speaker 1: three different versions and three different hold on, let me.
31:08
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go see if I can grab my hard
31:10
Speaker 1: back and see if I can find this is worth
31:12
Speaker 1: holding on for. Well. I found three versions of A
31:18
Speaker 1: Knife of Dreams and both of the Sanderson's other books,
31:21
Speaker 1: but I could not find my version of a Gathering Storm.
31:26
Speaker 1: So I found Powers of Midnight. I found a Memory
31:28
Speaker 1: of Light. I may not have it. I'm not sure.
31:31
Speaker 2: We should probably fix that.
31:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, I need to get a whole set. Honestly, I have, well,
31:37
Speaker 1: just a bunch of random paperbacks and hardbacks mixed all together. Also,
31:41
Speaker 1: by the way, you know the whole Like, I bought
31:42
Speaker 1: a house and I'm moving thing right, So the first
31:45
Speaker 1: thing we packed were the books, so it's literally the
31:49
Speaker 1: only thing packed right now is the books. So it's like,
31:51
Speaker 1: oh fuck, right, I have to go sort through the
31:53
Speaker 1: books really quick.
31:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of want to buy myself a whole
31:57
Speaker 2: match set, really nice set of the books.
32:00
Speaker 1: Get to the end, Well, did you see the Dragon?
32:03
Speaker 1: Steele is releasing the leather bound versions of the Wheels time,
32:08
Speaker 1: so we could spend like every cent this podcast has
32:10
Speaker 1: ever made and get ourselves two sets of those books.
32:13
Speaker 2: That seems reable.
32:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally totally. No, No, I.
32:17
Speaker 2: Haven't been living off of that money.
32:23
Speaker 1: Oh god. So okay, so there is no resolution about
32:26
Speaker 1: what this. Let me let me see.
32:29
Speaker 2: Depending on which edition you have, you may have a
32:31
Speaker 2: different chapter header.
32:34
Speaker 1: Tarvall In Library says it is the two Seagulls.
32:37
Speaker 2: Blacksmith's puzzle seems entirely wrong.
32:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it, And I feel like that's just my
32:42
Speaker 1: digital book that probably has it's I don't even know
32:45
Speaker 1: if this is the right version of it or version
32:49
Speaker 1: that's incorrect.
32:50
Speaker 2: I could see the moon and stars because Katswyin actually
32:53
Speaker 2: does something in this chapter. Where's the sea folk? No,
32:56
Speaker 2: there's an important conversation ran hands with the sea folks.
32:58
Speaker 2: So the seagulls make sense, or that makes sense. The
33:00
Speaker 2: Blacksmith puzzle makes zero.
33:02
Speaker 1: Sense, no sense. Yeah, that's I wanted to ask you
33:04
Speaker 1: about that because I was like, I don't know why that's.
33:05
Speaker 2: In my book because someone messed up.
33:07
Speaker 1: Someone messed up. But interesting that we are having two
33:11
Speaker 1: of us. Although, yeah, I guess perhaps what we'll Encyclopedia
33:16
Speaker 1: Watt might just have the wrong one on there. That
33:18
Speaker 1: would be entirely possible. I'm just looking for somewhere else,
33:22
Speaker 1: some other third party where I can verify where it
33:24
Speaker 1: what it would be. All right, well, let's let's keep going.
33:27
Speaker 1: And so Liligen supports the fact that it's the two seagulls,
33:31
Speaker 1: and that seems to be accurate. It seems like my
33:34
Speaker 1: the e book would be wrong, and that the Encyclopedia
33:38
Speaker 1: Watt just has an error on that they probably were
33:41
Speaker 1: going through and it was like, oh, it's got codswayne chapter,
33:43
Speaker 1: and it's got the star and seagulls and maybe just
33:45
Speaker 1: had the star and said star and moon and didn't
33:48
Speaker 1: realize those were different, very easy mixed up to make. Yeah,
33:51
Speaker 1: they're probably next to each other in the list. Maybe
33:53
Speaker 1: a misclick.
33:54
Speaker 2: All right, So all that to say, seagulls you want
33:59
Speaker 2: to read the sign.
34:00
Speaker 1: Rand crossed the trampled manor green, banners flapping before him,
34:03
Speaker 1: tents surrounding him, horses whinnying in their pickets on the
34:06
Speaker 1: far west side. In the air hung the scents of
34:09
Speaker 1: an efficient war camp, smoke and saber from the stewpots
34:12
Speaker 1: were much stronger than the occasional whiff of horse dung
34:15
Speaker 1: or an unwashed body. Basher's men maintained a tidy camp,
34:19
Speaker 1: busying themselves with the hundreds of little tasks that allowed
34:22
Speaker 1: the army to function, sharpening swords, oiling leathers, mending saddles,
34:26
Speaker 1: fetching water from the stream. Some practiced charges to the
34:29
Speaker 1: left on the far side of the green and the
34:31
Speaker 1: space between the tent lines and the scraggly trees growing
34:34
Speaker 1: alongside the stream. The men held gleaming lances at the
34:37
Speaker 1: level as the horses trampled the muddy ground in a
34:39
Speaker 1: long swathe. The maneuvers not only kept their skills sharp,
34:42
Speaker 1: but exercised the horses as well as always. Rand was
34:46
Speaker 1: trailed by a flock of attendants. Maidens were his guards,
34:49
Speaker 1: and the iel watched the Saldean soldiers with wariness. Beside
34:52
Speaker 1: him were several I sid Eye. They were always about him.
34:55
Speaker 1: Now the pattern had no place for his one time
34:57
Speaker 1: insistence that all I said eye be kept at arms length.
35:00
Speaker 1: It wove as it willed, and experience has shown that
35:04
Speaker 1: Rand needed these I sid eye. What he wanted no
35:06
Speaker 1: longer mattered. He understood that now, okay, little bit of
35:11
Speaker 1: darth Rand sneaking in there, what he wanted no longer matters.
35:14
Speaker 2: Bit, Yeah a lot, bit, that's a lot.
35:16
Speaker 1: Sorry, under understatement, understatement for sure.
35:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's the there's no room for what I want.
35:23
Speaker 2: And then he talks later in the chapter about how
35:26
Speaker 2: he has no free will and envies everyone else like yeah,
35:30
Speaker 2: he's he's Darth randing pretty hard.
35:32
Speaker 1: And he's at Lord tallon Taleene's manor still from last
35:36
Speaker 1: previous time sometimes we've seen him.
35:38
Speaker 2: We get a mention of El's a pen Fell dark friend.
35:40
Speaker 1: Alert dark friend alert Yeap, who has been compelled by
35:43
Speaker 1: Varn to help him reach you know, make the last
35:46
Speaker 1: battle right.
35:47
Speaker 2: And everyone had to find their own reasons. She found
35:50
Speaker 2: her reasons for being like well, because he has to
35:52
Speaker 2: die at the appointed time and place, which Morgan would
35:54
Speaker 2: approve of.
35:55
Speaker 1: You know, how can the dark one kill the dragon
35:57
Speaker 1: at the last battle if he's not at the last battle. Clearly,
35:59
Speaker 1: I must make sure he gets.
36:00
Speaker 2: There exactly exactly. And then she's instrumental in breaking Samarag out.
36:06
Speaker 2: Shidar Haran works through her to make that happen. And
36:12
Speaker 2: then also we have an actual good guy, Corel Jovian,
36:16
Speaker 2: who is one of the people that kept Ran from
36:18
Speaker 2: dying from the fane wound. She's fine, She's actually cool.
36:23
Speaker 1: She's actually like one of the good few isid Eye
36:26
Speaker 1: that one would consider, you know, stand up good isid
36:30
Speaker 1: Eye who do what they're supposed to do, which is
36:32
Speaker 1: a yellow who heals.
36:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, and she hasn't made any deeply questionable alliances
36:37
Speaker 2: with bad people in the plot.
36:39
Speaker 1: You know. So Rand's thinking about the wounds in his side,
36:42
Speaker 1: sort of contemplating his own death as he does frequently.
36:45
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, I don't know what's going to
36:47
Speaker 1: kill me, this wound or that wound. Basically, he knows
36:49
Speaker 1: that the wounds in his side are going to lead
36:52
Speaker 1: to his death, like the blood on shehale Ghoul will
36:54
Speaker 1: kill him, which it does, right, That's what does you know,
36:57
Speaker 1: pretty much lead to the body of Ram and at
37:00
Speaker 1: least dying is the wound in his side and him
37:03
Speaker 1: bleeding out.
37:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, the double whammy torso injury really does do him
37:08
Speaker 2: in in the end.
37:09
Speaker 1: And I really do think like the evil shadow Loga
37:11
Speaker 1: is fighting the evil of the dark one, right, he
37:14
Speaker 1: is a battlefield for that fight that's going on, and
37:17
Speaker 1: like the fight means they can't concentrate on him and
37:19
Speaker 1: they're sealed away. But there's no doubt in my mind
37:22
Speaker 1: that he's not being affected over.
37:23
Speaker 2: Time, right, Yeah, the body is being drained by supporting
37:27
Speaker 2: that war.
37:29
Speaker 1: He thinks of Matt, and so he gets an image
37:31
Speaker 1: of Matt, which him dicing with some soldiers. He said
37:35
Speaker 1: he hasn't seen two on for a while, although he
37:37
Speaker 1: doesn't know who she is. Some indication that this is
37:40
Speaker 1: Matt in chapter thirty six seems to be where the
37:43
Speaker 1: connection is.
37:45
Speaker 2: Okay, because he hasn't been with the band for a while.
37:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. You know, he
37:51
Speaker 1: looked to be outside a city somewhere a large road
37:53
Speaker 1: in the near distance. Twoon's been gone for a while.
37:57
Speaker 1: Sort of put those together and it seems like he's
37:59
Speaker 1: you know, Matt's been with the man for a little
38:00
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, sometime around chapter thirty where we
38:03
Speaker 1: get back to him in chapter thirty six.
38:05
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is currently happening later in the book. Yes,
38:09
Speaker 2: cool one one lovely moment of getting to know how
38:13
Speaker 2: the timeline is decinct.
38:14
Speaker 1: Or you could just say like we're seeing all the
38:16
Speaker 1: characters at the same time, and so right now we're
38:18
Speaker 1: seeing Rain at that moment, and then later we see
38:22
Speaker 1: Matt at that moment.
38:23
Speaker 2: That's fair enough.
38:24
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that uh Jordan would have phrased it
38:27
Speaker 1: this way where he ran sort of looking at the
38:29
Speaker 1: people around him and goes, it's right for them to
38:31
Speaker 1: obey right. I thought that was a little sinister where
38:34
Speaker 1: he's like everyone's obeying him and he's like yeah, it
38:37
Speaker 1: doesn't even think about it for a second. He's just like,
38:39
Speaker 1: of course people obey me. Why would I Why would
38:41
Speaker 1: I question that? And part of me is like, I
38:43
Speaker 1: don't know if Jordan would have written it that way.
38:46
Speaker 2: Well, but we do get a lot of loose there
38:49
Speaker 2: and bleed through.
38:51
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe that's what's going on, Okay.
38:53
Speaker 2: Dorothy, and I feel like that's a loose therany.
38:56
Speaker 1: Okay, because it didn't didn't feel like a Rand thought
38:59
Speaker 1: to me. Even Rand like as king still isn't super
39:03
Speaker 1: comfortable being served, right, he still thinks about the servants.
39:07
Speaker 1: It's not right for them to be servants. That's he's
39:09
Speaker 1: never been there. But I could see Lewis Thearren having
39:12
Speaker 1: that thought.
39:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, because later on in the chapter we have a
39:15
Speaker 2: very seamless blending yes and ltt so like why not
39:19
Speaker 2: have it start this early in the chapter, but it
39:22
Speaker 2: is definitely like a whoa, we have escalated into some
39:25
Speaker 2: darthy mcrand over here.
39:28
Speaker 1: So we're seeing his plan for Aerodomont. Right, he's getting
39:31
Speaker 1: Darlin the Terran high King, right, who later becomes just
39:35
Speaker 1: I believe king.
39:37
Speaker 2: No, he's become king right he is Okay, he is taps.
39:40
Speaker 1: Now, yes, yes, that's why he's hiking, gotcha. He's basically saying,
39:43
Speaker 1: get your forces ready, we are going to air Domont
39:46
Speaker 1: and we are going to reinforce. Because remember this is
39:48
Speaker 1: the group that like wanted to go to war, right,
39:50
Speaker 1: and like I think they wanted to go to war
39:52
Speaker 1: with like kyrieen right, and he.
39:54
Speaker 2: Was something like that.
39:56
Speaker 1: The lords of tyr love battle. They want to fight that.
39:58
Speaker 1: They're all about riding forth to the glory of the dragon, right.
40:02
Speaker 2: So mmmm mm hmm, yeah, they got their cavalry, they
40:06
Speaker 2: got Yeah, they're all into.
40:07
Speaker 1: That, and so I think they're they're kind of chomping
40:09
Speaker 1: at the bit. And meanwhile, He's like, Okay, just keep recruiting,
40:13
Speaker 1: bringing more people, bringing more people, bringing more.
40:15
Speaker 2: People, exactly exactly. Rand is like, hold yeah, Darlne's like,
40:20
Speaker 2: but we've been holding longer than we've ever held before,
40:23
Speaker 2: Like this is ridiculous, And Rand's like, trust me, I'm
40:25
Speaker 2: literally Jesus, Yeah.
40:27
Speaker 1: Don't worry. There will be a fight. You will, don't
40:29
Speaker 1: You will have plenty of fighting to do. Do not.
40:31
Speaker 1: But I feel like they're just impatient.
40:33
Speaker 2: You will feel like you don't have enough men at
40:35
Speaker 2: some point. Exactly, just keep gathering and honestly, you should
40:38
Speaker 2: be recruiting the women too, and what's to fight. You
40:40
Speaker 2: should be opening up the armory to fit them too.
40:45
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's lots of Tyrann women who would love
40:47
Speaker 2: a horse and a sword and a suit of armor.
40:49
Speaker 2: Just saying, maybe not a suit of armor. That's kind
40:52
Speaker 2: of a long skill to learn, but like a horse
40:54
Speaker 2: and some weapon. I'm sure a lot of Tyrann women
40:57
Speaker 2: would be down to that.
40:58
Speaker 1: I forget what the culture is with the Terran women.
41:00
Speaker 2: I mean there's not much.
41:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just mostly women in dresses, right, like mostly
41:04
Speaker 1: like high ladies and stuff like that.
41:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also swan and Okay, I have a feeling
41:10
Speaker 2: that the common the fisherman type. Yeah, I feel like
41:14
Speaker 2: the peasants, well probably the peasants of every country, right,
41:16
Speaker 2: I don't feel like you'd have as much of a
41:18
Speaker 2: gender bias on people feeling like they were equipped to
41:20
Speaker 2: go beat the ship out of evil, you know, but whatever.
41:25
Speaker 1: I see that we think that we see that in
41:26
Speaker 1: the prologue with the farmer and his wife where they're
41:29
Speaker 1: both like with the eggs and stuff, that she's like
41:31
Speaker 1: just as prepared to go off and fight.
41:34
Speaker 2: Basically, Yeah, totally totally. And I because of that, I'm
41:38
Speaker 2: a little feeling like, oh, we should be arming the women,
41:41
Speaker 2: but oh well, whatever, it's fine, moving on. Yeah. So
41:57
Speaker 2: Rand is mad at the c folk for not assist
42:00
Speaker 2: in helping provision Tear, which did an easy try Aradamont.
42:06
Speaker 2: He's trying to get food to Radomon and the seafolks
42:10
Speaker 2: show up, and he immediately begins berating them because he's
42:12
Speaker 2: pissed off about Darlin being impatient.
42:15
Speaker 1: It's just well, then the sea folks are legitimately like, dude,
42:18
Speaker 1: our ships don't teleport, right, Like, we have to get that.
42:22
Speaker 1: We have to get them across enemy territory to the
42:24
Speaker 1: place where you want us to pick up the grain,
42:26
Speaker 1: and then go back across animatory enemy territory to the
42:29
Speaker 1: place where you want to drop off the grain. It's
42:31
Speaker 1: not simple, it's not easy, and it doesn't happen fast.
42:33
Speaker 1: And maybe you're used to gateways because yes, seem a
42:36
Speaker 1: little impatient right now.
42:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, we must deal with the realities of shipping and
42:41
Speaker 2: war even if you do not is like, I mean,
42:45
Speaker 2: she's not wrong, Like there are realities to shipping and war.
42:50
Speaker 2: And he also has this thought about wondering if she's
42:52
Speaker 2: been elevated to high of a rank to like attend
42:55
Speaker 2: on him. No, the reason that the seafolk were hesitant
42:57
Speaker 2: to send her back is because she's lost so much
42:59
Speaker 2: off on her in their eyes, and they don't want
43:02
Speaker 2: to be exact opposite someone of such low rank. And
43:05
Speaker 2: like the fact that they sent her is because she
43:07
Speaker 2: asked not because like, it's so funny how much he
43:11
Speaker 2: misreads that situation, because we know, but like, how would
43:14
Speaker 2: he know? Right, Like she tries to keep the ship secret.
43:16
Speaker 2: She has no idea, she doesn't.
43:18
Speaker 1: I mean, they are pissed at him for a voice,
43:19
Speaker 1: like they he swore that the Ice and Eyes swore
43:21
Speaker 1: that bargain, that he would keep a sea folk minder
43:24
Speaker 1: with him at all times, right, like, and we're like,
43:26
Speaker 1: oh my god, he hasn't been doing that at all.
43:28
Speaker 1: He's been traveling around for the last books. You know,
43:31
Speaker 1: they say weeks here, but that's you know, books to us. Well.
43:35
Speaker 2: But see, I think Brandon Sanderson understood that the seafolk
43:38
Speaker 2: had not gotten enough time and was like, all right,
43:41
Speaker 2: all right, all right, let's bring the sea folk in.
43:42
Speaker 2: Let's let's make a habit of giving a fuck about
43:45
Speaker 2: the sea folk at a very late date. But like,
43:47
Speaker 2: let's let's begin giving a fuck about the sea folk
43:49
Speaker 2: at all.
43:50
Speaker 1: And yeah, Rand insults them. I know you don't like
43:53
Speaker 1: being forced to keep your agreement? What an insult to
43:56
Speaker 1: the seafolk?
43:57
Speaker 3: Wow?
43:58
Speaker 1: Insult? No, No, they made a bargain. They will keep it.
44:05
Speaker 1: They will absolutely keep it. They do not try and
44:07
Speaker 1: wriggle out of the barn, and they will tease you
44:10
Speaker 1: while making the bargain. But once the bargain is made,
44:12
Speaker 1: the sea folk honor it, and Rand's insult to their
44:14
Speaker 1: honor right there. That was a deep cut.
44:17
Speaker 2: It was very rude, and he actually had It's so
44:20
Speaker 2: rude that even he thinks it was rude, Like, that's
44:23
Speaker 2: how rude it was.
44:26
Speaker 1: He sort of asks, Hareen, you know were you punished,
44:29
Speaker 1: and she does the Taverian thing where she tells him
44:30
Speaker 1: exactly how she was punished, and she didn't really mean to,
44:34
Speaker 1: and so that's we get her punishment in detail. I
44:37
Speaker 1: was hung up by my ankles, naked and strapped until
44:40
Speaker 1: I could scream no more.
44:42
Speaker 2: I feel so many layers of that I didn't need
44:46
Speaker 2: hm upside down, naked and strapped until literally your voice
44:52
Speaker 2: is given out. I don't like any of those things.
44:54
Speaker 2: None of those things seemed seemed necessary. Upside down and naked,
45:00
Speaker 2: Like why.
45:01
Speaker 1: Does parallel a little bit with what's going on with
45:03
Speaker 1: a GWayne in White.
45:04
Speaker 2: Tower parallels what's going on with Sammarog in the fucking
45:09
Speaker 2: Manor House? Like I don't like any of it.
45:12
Speaker 1: I don't even think she's being spanked.
45:14
Speaker 2: No but the upside but she's upside down. Oh okay,
45:16
Speaker 2: Gwaine's never upside down. Sammarog has the upside down figured out, well,
45:21
Speaker 2: figured it out. She has that hell down, she's got
45:23
Speaker 2: that in her.
45:24
Speaker 1: I mean, Aquaen's bent over a table, and isn't that
45:26
Speaker 1: sort of upside down ish pending? Depending? So he asks her,
45:32
Speaker 1: you know, basically, hey, how do you treat men who
45:35
Speaker 1: can channel? Because you should probably stop doing whatever it
45:37
Speaker 1: is you're doing, because I'm guessing you've been killing them, right.
45:41
Speaker 2: Like right, And she's like, yes, we have, in fact
45:43
Speaker 2: been putting the dangerous nukes on Yeah, yeah, like out
45:47
Speaker 2: on islands where they can detonate without kill themselves by
45:52
Speaker 2: strapping themselves to ballast and hucking themselves over the side
45:55
Speaker 2: of the boat, which is the more honorable way.
45:57
Speaker 1: There's fewer islands out there than there used to be
45:59
Speaker 1: for some reason.
46:00
Speaker 2: I don't know why we're running out of islands, but
46:03
Speaker 2: you know, all.
46:05
Speaker 1: Right, US military stop radiating all the.
46:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, truly, truly did they ever check in with like,
46:11
Speaker 2: you know, they say it's an uninhabited island, but is it?
46:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, inhabited by natives? Maybe maybe.
46:19
Speaker 2: I mean, I know the Sifolk aren't the Americans.
46:22
Speaker 1: I mean, I really do think they're going to barren
46:24
Speaker 1: islands like a toll, right, like a sliver of sand
46:31
Speaker 1: sticking up above the waves. And that's it. No grass,
46:35
Speaker 1: no trees, they have no no resources whatsoever.
46:38
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, right, like one family of turtles rehatches
46:42
Speaker 2: there every every year, like there's a three week period
46:45
Speaker 2: for some turtles hatch. But that's it.
46:46
Speaker 1: It would be interesting, though, if there was an equivalent
46:50
Speaker 1: force of sean Chan channelers who were rescued by dark
46:56
Speaker 1: friends and converted the same way the Ayel were. And
46:59
Speaker 1: so you had an evil version of the sean Chan
47:03
Speaker 1: male channelers because they were folks. I'm sorry I keep
47:06
Speaker 1: saying sean Chan seafolks. So you had a seek folk
47:10
Speaker 1: mirror of the ideal channelers, right, who were taken to
47:14
Speaker 1: shale Ghoul, kidnapped off these it deserted. Oh why would
47:17
Speaker 1: we keep sposoring on this one atoll and we never
47:20
Speaker 1: find the bodies And it's like yeah, because they keep
47:22
Speaker 1: getting kidnapped ting the shale Ghoul. And then you have
47:24
Speaker 1: a you could have a whole nother force just like
47:27
Speaker 1: you do with the male Aeel.
47:29
Speaker 2: I totally had the same thought while I was doing
47:31
Speaker 2: my notes, like, man, if there had been some seafaring
47:34
Speaker 2: dark friends who could like come down from like some
47:38
Speaker 2: blight town on the coast and like pick these guys up,
47:41
Speaker 2: like the seasonal washup of or whatever, like every year
47:46
Speaker 2: they go down and like get men who can channel
47:48
Speaker 2: and take them up, Like they totally could have had
47:50
Speaker 2: another force of dark channelers. I literally had that same
47:54
Speaker 2: thought during my notes.
47:56
Speaker 1: You just need a couple of dark friends cleaning you off.
47:58
Speaker 1: When someone gets abandoned and you just have they send
48:00
Speaker 1: a message, they send a pigeon or something, or you know,
48:04
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden you have The week
48:06
Speaker 1: goes by, two weeks go by, the man's nearly dead,
48:09
Speaker 1: You show up, rescue them. He's like, oh thank god,
48:12
Speaker 1: convert him to the dark side.
48:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, easy peasy, easy peasy. Missed opportunity Dark friends on
48:17
Speaker 2: the ten.
48:19
Speaker 1: The last battle was not nearly big enough. It's as
48:21
Speaker 1: much as it was a crazy large battle, it wasn't
48:23
Speaker 1: nearly big enough for all the forces that could have
48:25
Speaker 1: been in play. I think it would have been interesting
48:29
Speaker 1: to This is very speculative, but have parallel battles going
48:35
Speaker 1: on in other places and be like, oh my god,
48:38
Speaker 1: there's also a battle going on in sean Chan. There's
48:41
Speaker 1: also a battle going on in Sharhah. There's also a
48:43
Speaker 1: battle going on. Because they kind of showed it with
48:46
Speaker 1: the parallel worlds, right, like as as Telerounriod started to fail,
48:51
Speaker 1: they saw you saw all the other parallel worlds where
48:54
Speaker 1: theout the battle was happening, but it was only really
48:56
Speaker 1: happening in one place in our world. I think it
49:00
Speaker 1: would have been cooler if it was more of a
49:01
Speaker 1: global battle. You had more forces distributed.
49:04
Speaker 2: I'm nodding that you had.
49:05
Speaker 1: Like dark friends all over the world who were initiating
49:09
Speaker 1: their version of this battle.
49:11
Speaker 2: Right, and like maybe the good side thought it was
49:13
Speaker 2: going to be one battle and it turns out that like, no,
49:16
Speaker 2: it's seven battles spread across the seven seas, so to speak,
49:21
Speaker 2: like from the whole all four corners of the world
49:24
Speaker 2: shall be split in turmoil kind of energy, and you.
49:26
Speaker 1: Sort of have ran like in the same way that
49:28
Speaker 1: he appeared in the sky over Falma, right, you could
49:33
Speaker 1: have him appearing across the world and then his battle
49:37
Speaker 1: with the Dark One inspiring them to you know, fight
49:40
Speaker 1: back and you know sort of the final battle for
49:43
Speaker 1: everybody across the globe, because it was very it was
49:46
Speaker 1: very European focused, right like.
49:48
Speaker 2: And then they all would have felt like they fought
49:50
Speaker 2: the last battle and they won the last battle, and
49:53
Speaker 2: like every soldier across all seven thirteen forty five battlefields
50:00
Speaker 2: would have that feeling of like literal Jesus was fighting
50:03
Speaker 2: at my side as I vanquished Satan. That would have
50:06
Speaker 2: been really a cool echo of book two. Right, that
50:10
Speaker 2: would have been amazing. That would have felt big. That
50:13
Speaker 2: would have been the scale and bigness to feel like
50:15
Speaker 2: the right escalation from everything that's come before.
50:18
Speaker 1: Because I do feel and I think I said this back,
50:20
Speaker 1: the Great Battle at the end of the Great Hunt
50:22
Speaker 1: is the rehearsal for the last battle. Right. It is
50:25
Speaker 1: almost with the it's got the horn in it, it's
50:27
Speaker 1: got the goods fighting the bad. It's got Rand versus
50:30
Speaker 1: a shameel versus the dark one. It's it's the rehearsal.
50:33
Speaker 1: It's the dress rehearsal for the final battle.
50:36
Speaker 2: Man, I'm nodding so much and so.
50:40
Speaker 1: Much of what happens in the last battle is echoed
50:42
Speaker 1: in that and and just look at the way Jordan
50:44
Speaker 1: initially structured it, right, That was this end of the
50:47
Speaker 1: second book of what was kind of supposed to be
50:50
Speaker 1: a trilogy, right like, so, yeah, that was the dress
50:53
Speaker 1: rehearsal for the final battle that was going to happen
50:55
Speaker 1: at the end of the third book. And if you
50:56
Speaker 1: kind of look at the what he incorporates into the
51:00
Speaker 1: final battle, a lot of those elements. Our echoes are repeats,
51:04
Speaker 1: our wheels of turning of the pattern right over and
51:07
Speaker 1: over and over again.
51:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally.
51:11
Speaker 1: We never ever ever find out what question Hareen asks Rand,
51:15
Speaker 1: as far as I can tell.
51:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was not remembering anything, and I was desperately
51:19
Speaker 2: hoping you were going to surprise me with a no.
51:22
Speaker 1: No. As far as I can tell, this is the
51:24
Speaker 1: last time we ever interact with Hereen in any meaningful way.
51:29
Speaker 1: It's assumed she survives the last battle, obviously because she
51:32
Speaker 1: becomes Mistress of the Chips, but this is the last
51:36
Speaker 1: scene that she's in.
51:38
Speaker 2: Really genuinely, she doesn't show up for the rest of
51:43
Speaker 2: the trilogy.
51:45
Speaker 1: I even went beyond my normal sources to double check,
51:49
Speaker 1: because sometimes the sources don't always include memory of Light.
51:52
Speaker 2: But yeah, no, Wow, that's disappointing because I really wanted
51:58
Speaker 2: to know what her question was. I really like to
52:00
Speaker 2: where her characters seemed like she could be going. This
52:02
Speaker 2: is a disappointing thing that I thought. Brandon Sanderson just
52:06
Speaker 2: said he was going to start making the sea folk
52:09
Speaker 2: be part of things, and you're telling me that this
52:10
Speaker 2: is the last time that the good seafolk character is well,
52:14
Speaker 2: wait for me to eat my own words. On the
52:16
Speaker 2: same episode, that's great.
52:18
Speaker 1: Zeida is in a dangerous area of show Ghoul when
52:21
Speaker 1: during the last battle, when most of the seafolk died
52:23
Speaker 1: in that we're in that so one assumes that she
52:26
Speaker 1: dies and that after the last battle Irene becomes Misters
52:31
Speaker 1: of the Ships. But no POV, no return, no question.
52:36
Speaker 2: And it was such a good bargain too, because Rand
52:38
Speaker 2: is like, I want this question answered, and then he
52:40
Speaker 2: actually manages to like hold a good bargain with a
52:43
Speaker 2: sea folk or's like a fine, I'll give you one question,
52:45
Speaker 2: and then he holds that line, and it was like,
52:47
Speaker 2: I loved the exchange, and I totally understood her reason
52:50
Speaker 2: for being like, hmm, he seems to be having a
52:53
Speaker 2: bad reaction to my answer. I'm just gonna wait till
52:57
Speaker 2: he's you know, in it better heads. He's like to
53:00
Speaker 2: get why she decides not to ask the angry, muttering
53:02
Speaker 2: madman a question, but oh, I wanted to know. I
53:08
Speaker 2: wanted to know what she would ask.
53:12
Speaker 1: Dangling thread dropped.
53:13
Speaker 2: As far as I can tell, that's a bummer that
53:15
Speaker 2: annoys me. We've got Rand really seamlessly blending into loose
53:19
Speaker 2: there and hard here right thinking about some random brilliant
53:24
Speaker 2: engineer who worked on prototype Tron grey all back when
53:27
Speaker 2: he was loose there, and just seamlessly blending with Rand's thoughts,
53:30
Speaker 2: which upsets him. But also he's like, I don't even
53:33
Speaker 2: have the energy to be upset anymore. I'm so tired,
53:35
Speaker 2: and this is the only way I'm gonna figure out
53:38
Speaker 2: how to steal the dark One away, like whatever, I've
53:40
Speaker 2: given up fighting it.
53:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's another point where Sanderson really
53:45
Speaker 1: telegraphs what he's going to do. The safety of the
53:47
Speaker 1: world might depend on the memories of a dead man.
53:50
Speaker 1: They do. It's like one und percent, Yes, that's how
53:52
Speaker 1: he figures out how to seal the more. He even
53:55
Speaker 1: then later says it like, oh, can you imagine, if
53:57
Speaker 1: I didn't have the taint, I wouldn't have had the memories,
53:59
Speaker 1: and then I wouldn't have done this. And the Dark
54:01
Speaker 1: One defeats himself and like he spells it out very clearly,
54:04
Speaker 1: so he foreshadows it, it happens, and then he spells
54:07
Speaker 1: it out afterwards. So that's your Brandon Sanderson way. Ye,
54:12
Speaker 1: speaking of I know I'm just going into this, but
54:15
Speaker 1: so there's a line here he's talking about the cleansing
54:19
Speaker 1: and how he thought there'd be a lot more celebration, right,
54:22
Speaker 1: he imagined joy and wonder at the victory. But he
54:24
Speaker 1: should have known better. And I love that line because
54:27
Speaker 1: I also, when reading the books, expected joy and wonder
54:31
Speaker 1: at the victory. Right, you read Winter's Heart and then
54:34
Speaker 1: you go into Crossroads of Twilight expecting everyone to be
54:37
Speaker 1: celebrating this cleansing, and everyone's like, what was that? Anyway,
54:41
Speaker 1: probably the forsaking or something like it's the worst reaction ever.
54:47
Speaker 1: And I've also wanted to comment. In related news, I
54:49
Speaker 1: finished Stormlight Archive Wind in Truth. Fantastic book, right, very good.
54:55
Speaker 1: Did focus a little more on the male plot lines
54:57
Speaker 1: than the female ones in a way that I'm just
55:00
Speaker 1: like Okay, they feel kind of like they got put
55:03
Speaker 1: aside for the side plot lines, right, But anyway, my
55:06
Speaker 1: issue and the reason I related to this comment with
55:09
Speaker 1: Sanderson is he writes such incredibly big worlds that I
55:14
Speaker 1: want certain things out of his next book. I read
55:17
Speaker 1: Book three, and I want certain things out of book four,
55:21
Speaker 1: and he doesn't always give me those things. He gives
55:24
Speaker 1: me other things, which I also enjoy quite a bit, right,
55:28
Speaker 1: But oftentimes the first time I read his book, I
55:31
Speaker 1: have a lot of disappointment because he doesn't go over
55:36
Speaker 1: the plot lines or the parts of the world that
55:39
Speaker 1: I really want him to cover. And that doesn't mean
55:42
Speaker 1: that what he wrote isn't very good, but expectations, man.
55:46
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.
55:47
Speaker 1: I imagine the joy and wonder of what I'm going
55:51
Speaker 1: to read. But I should have known better. So that's
55:53
Speaker 1: really how I related to that quote is because I
55:55
Speaker 1: really should know better. It's on me. It's on me,
55:58
Speaker 1: but I do. I read his books and I'm going going, man,
56:00
Speaker 1: I really really expect him to like the foreshadowing here
56:04
Speaker 1: for this character doing this thing in this location, and
56:08
Speaker 1: instead he takes that character and does it in that
56:10
Speaker 1: place over there, and it's good and it makes sense
56:14
Speaker 1: why he's doing it when I get to the end.
56:16
Speaker 1: But I really really thought he was coming, you know,
56:18
Speaker 1: I thought he's taking Path A and he ended up
56:20
Speaker 1: on Path B.
56:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, expectations are the theft of joy truly.
56:27
Speaker 1: That is. Yes, that is a statement, and it is
56:33
Speaker 1: it is. I mean, gosh, everything with like, oh my god,
56:37
Speaker 1: how much is my raise going to be? Right? If
56:38
Speaker 1: it's more than you expect, you're happy. If it's less
56:40
Speaker 1: than you expect, you're unhappy. Right, it is, it is.
56:45
Speaker 1: It's interesting the way your expectations really do affect, like
56:48
Speaker 1: at how well you meet those expectations, which is interesting
56:53
Speaker 1: because the stock market works the same way.
56:56
Speaker 2: Right, Nothing to see there.
57:02
Speaker 1: So then gosh, we got you know, people are jumping
57:05
Speaker 1: through gateways, right, so we've got all these people coming
57:07
Speaker 1: and going. First, you know, it was the c folk.
57:12
Speaker 1: Now we've got finn Is showing up, Dan or Flynn again.
57:18
Speaker 1: This is sort of a light. I don't have a
57:20
Speaker 1: lot here anything, Do you have anything to say?
57:22
Speaker 2: This is where Rand has his little petty party about
57:26
Speaker 2: how the soldiers could choose to leave if they wanted,
57:30
Speaker 2: and Flynn's like, really, you don't think that the pattern
57:34
Speaker 2: bends to your will and that's cool. And RAN's like, no,
57:36
Speaker 2: it's not cool. It's actually very not cool. I don't
57:39
Speaker 2: like it and I have no free will, and Flynn's like,
57:42
Speaker 2: I don't know what to say to that. And I
57:44
Speaker 2: think it is an interesting moment of meditation on the
57:48
Speaker 2: concept of destiny and free will, which is appropriate in
57:51
Speaker 2: this book where destiny and free will are such like like, yeah,
57:55
Speaker 2: does Rand have power or is he basically like a
57:58
Speaker 2: puppet being held you know, Like it's kind of the
58:02
Speaker 2: same existential dread that Paula Trdes has to deal with,
58:05
Speaker 2: right of being, like I know what's coming and nothing
58:08
Speaker 2: I do will change it, and like that, like yeah,
58:12
Speaker 2: you look up to the King, the Messiah, the princess,
58:15
Speaker 2: whoever it is, but like, yeah, is it actually less
58:20
Speaker 2: free than anyone else's life? I mean, obviously slavery is
58:23
Speaker 2: a thing, but like amongst people who choose to be
58:25
Speaker 2: in an army camp that he's looking at at this moment,
58:28
Speaker 2: like well.
58:29
Speaker 1: And Rand makes a point where I think he says
58:31
Speaker 1: at one point and it might even be in the show,
58:33
Speaker 1: no one else is for sure they are going to
58:35
Speaker 1: die at the end. Yes, lots of people will die,
58:38
Speaker 1: but no one else can be absolutely sure that they
58:41
Speaker 1: will die during the last battle other than me.
58:44
Speaker 2: You know, right, yeah, totally, which is.
58:48
Speaker 1: Kind of ironic that he survives in another body, but
58:50
Speaker 1: you know whatever, he shouldn't. I don't agree with that.
58:55
Speaker 1: I do think that Jordan wrote that. I think that
58:56
Speaker 1: was Jordan's intent from the very beginning, right, I think
58:59
Speaker 1: he wanted I agree with that for sure, wrong and
59:02
Speaker 1: he wanted him to die like I dred percent and
59:04
Speaker 1: on board with him dying, with him surviving in another body, right,
59:09
Speaker 1: I think the crossing of the stream set it up
59:11
Speaker 1: a long time ago.
59:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure, I just disagree with Jordan making
59:15
Speaker 2: that call. But I totally agree that that is was
59:18
Speaker 2: set up and intended for sure.
59:19
Speaker 1: I more think either either Paren or Matt should have died.
59:24
Speaker 2: I love your Matt dying alternative ending. I really like that.
59:27
Speaker 2: I want Paren to go settle down and make the
59:29
Speaker 2: two rivers awesome with a litter of woolf puppies, I
59:32
Speaker 2: mean children with Fayel like, I want that to be
59:35
Speaker 2: a thing. But Matt dying to take down matchadar Chef's
59:38
Speaker 2: kiss and yeah, I'm just the body swap thing is
59:41
Speaker 2: just real weird because it.
59:43
Speaker 1: Redeems him picking up the knife in the first place.
59:44
Speaker 2: Too exactly exactly. It makes so much sense, but that's
59:48
Speaker 2: not what we're here to talk about. I just that
59:50
Speaker 2: was all I had left to talk about with this
59:52
Speaker 2: was just like it's a good meditation on who has
59:55
Speaker 2: free will. It's not that there's an answer to it.
59:57
Speaker 2: It's just it's a nice moment of like Marcus Aurelius
1:00:00
Speaker 2: looking out being like, oh, I'm so stoic and thoughtful. Anyway,
1:00:04
Speaker 2: back to subduing the Germanic tribes and.
1:00:07
Speaker 1: Back to the plot. It was time to secure aer Doomon,
1:00:10
Speaker 1: or maybe it was time to destroy it. Sometimes it
1:00:12
Speaker 1: was difficult to tell the difference. And that's the end
1:00:15
Speaker 1: of his POV. There.
1:00:17
Speaker 2: That's a prescient line for the whole way that kat
1:00:19
Speaker 2: Swain looks at him as being like the dragon is
1:00:22
Speaker 2: going to destroy the world definitely and save it maybe right,
1:00:26
Speaker 2: Like this is very draconic of him.
1:00:29
Speaker 1: He's definitely breaking it, right, and he's like broken if
1:00:31
Speaker 1: you look at like how many world leaders are left
1:00:33
Speaker 1: alive from when he started his you know campaign, to
1:00:37
Speaker 1: how many nations have get gotten absorbed to alliances with
1:00:42
Speaker 1: the you know, the Iel he's broken their nations, He's
1:00:46
Speaker 1: and also the like if you really consider what technology
1:00:49
Speaker 1: is going to do to the things, you know, we
1:00:50
Speaker 1: talk about disrupting technology, right, that's going to break society.
1:00:53
Speaker 1: He's establishing, you know. So I think it's really interesting
1:00:56
Speaker 1: the way these prophecies talk about breaking the world because
1:01:00
Speaker 1: he's going to come back, and really he's breaking society
1:01:02
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways.
1:01:03
Speaker 2: But he's making a better one, yeah, for sure, for sure.
1:01:06
Speaker 1: And ends up making a better one. I don't know
1:01:08
Speaker 1: if that's always his intent, especially during the darth Rand phase,
1:01:12
Speaker 1: but he does establish the school and he does create
1:01:14
Speaker 1: you know peace. It's the peace of the sword, but
1:01:16
Speaker 1: it is peace.
1:01:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, pack Straw Conica is a tough time, but the
1:01:21
Speaker 2: schools he creates in a slightly better headspace at this point,
1:01:24
Speaker 2: I don't think he's developing schools. I don't think he
1:01:27
Speaker 2: would have that idea at this point.
1:01:29
Speaker 1: He's too cynical.
1:01:43
Speaker 2: Moving on to our last POV of the day, Kats.
1:01:48
Speaker 1: Would you like to read us into that one?
1:01:50
Speaker 2: Maurice spoke Grand Doll's plans. Tell me again what you
1:01:55
Speaker 2: know of them? The Tall eyes to die of the
1:01:58
Speaker 2: green Agia. Like kadswayn herself maintained a stern expression, arms
1:02:03
Speaker 2: folded beneath her breasts, a silver comb slid into the
1:02:06
Speaker 2: side of her black hair. The terra baner woman was
1:02:09
Speaker 2: a good choice to lead the interrogation, or at least
1:02:12
Speaker 2: she was the best choice kad Swain had. Maurice didn't
1:02:15
Speaker 2: show a bit of discomfort at being so near to
1:02:17
Speaker 2: one of the most feared beings in all of creation,
1:02:20
Speaker 2: and she was relentless in her questioning. She did try
1:02:23
Speaker 2: a little too hard to prove how stern she was
1:02:27
Speaker 2: the way she kept her hair pulled back into its
1:02:29
Speaker 2: bun with such force, for instance, or the way she
1:02:32
Speaker 2: flaunted her ashaman water scene set.
1:02:36
Speaker 1: So, Maurice seems to be cod Swain's number two.
1:02:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's green, she's kind of seasoned and relatively unflappable.
1:02:47
Speaker 2: Commands the respect of a lot of the others. Yeah,
1:02:50
Speaker 2: she is definitely Kadswayin's number two in terms of like
1:02:53
Speaker 2: strength and standing. She uses diigion as a very important person. Right,
1:02:57
Speaker 2: But she's not kad Swain's number two.
1:03:00
Speaker 1: Bonded to Nmo as well? Right? He who should follow after? Right?
1:03:03
Speaker 1: So interesting? I can see uh again, because I think
1:03:09
Speaker 1: in the future it's possible in Narishima will be head
1:03:12
Speaker 1: of the Black Tower. That's what I think that props. Right,
1:03:15
Speaker 1: And then if you've got the Keeper god Swain's number two,
1:03:19
Speaker 1: who's direct in line to be Amberlyn. Yeah, interesting alliance
1:03:26
Speaker 1: between the White Tower and the Black Tower. If you
1:03:28
Speaker 1: have a bonded pair as the relative leaders of each
1:03:31
Speaker 1: of the.
1:03:31
Speaker 2: Towers, that would be really good and that would.
1:03:34
Speaker 1: Help like with Narishima's he who shall follow after and
1:03:37
Speaker 1: be this grand leader who shall create peace across the land.
1:03:40
Speaker 1: Right like h yeah, I like that again, wild speculation
1:03:47
Speaker 1: at this point, right, because why not? Why not? Why not?
1:03:50
Speaker 2: Why not? There's literally nothing better.
1:03:53
Speaker 1: To do we do. We've gone over a lot of
1:03:57
Speaker 1: these theories a lot of times.
1:03:59
Speaker 2: So I do think it's funny that Kat Swayne is
1:04:01
Speaker 2: calling out Marie's for flaunting how stern she is. I'm like, Kat'swayne,
1:04:05
Speaker 2: it takes one to know one.
1:04:07
Speaker 1: You're putting up in front two bit girl like.
1:04:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you very much also project an over level
1:04:14
Speaker 2: of confidence and sternness and flaunting of your strength, and
1:04:18
Speaker 2: it's different than how Maurice does it. But you're no
1:04:21
Speaker 2: less arrogant and proud because you're both green, you're very
1:04:24
Speaker 2: similar women.
1:04:26
Speaker 1: So what follows is a very I don't even want
1:04:29
Speaker 1: to call it's a bland interrogation. Right. They're asking her
1:04:33
Speaker 1: questions but they can't hurt they're asking simron questions but
1:04:36
Speaker 1: they can't hurt her or do anything to her. So
1:04:38
Speaker 1: she's just threatening them while they ask her questions.
1:04:42
Speaker 2: It's very silly. Randa is like, you're allowed to talk
1:04:45
Speaker 2: to her, but if all you can do to talk
1:04:47
Speaker 2: to her clearly, all she's going to do is say
1:04:49
Speaker 2: disturbing things to you, So have fun with that. And
1:04:53
Speaker 2: Kat Swayne is doing a kind of a smart thing
1:04:56
Speaker 2: and just observing, right, she's not taking control of the
1:04:58
Speaker 2: interrogation because as soon as she does and fails, as
1:05:01
Speaker 2: she thinks later, then she becomes just as fallible as
1:05:05
Speaker 2: the rest of them. So she sits there and watches
1:05:08
Speaker 2: and observes and is just processing and thinking and not
1:05:12
Speaker 2: doing anything but being very studious about it.
1:05:15
Speaker 1: And I think what she's observing is that the awe
1:05:17
Speaker 1: the other I said I have for semarrog is sort
1:05:20
Speaker 1: of what's giving her the power to resist the questioning, Right,
1:05:24
Speaker 1: Like Maurice goes she's lived three thousand years three thousand,
1:05:28
Speaker 1: cod Swain and Codswayin's like she's she's spent the bulk
1:05:32
Speaker 1: of that asleep in prison. She's younger than I am. Really, like,
1:05:35
Speaker 1: she's not that old in actual experience. Like, you know,
1:05:39
Speaker 1: god Swain's coming up on three hundred what do we
1:05:40
Speaker 1: think samarag is like two four hundred two too. Yeah,
1:05:45
Speaker 1: she's really not. We don't have I go back and
1:05:47
Speaker 1: look at her actual age.
1:05:48
Speaker 2: But yeah, I assume that she's like middle aged for
1:05:51
Speaker 2: a channel it makes her yeah, you know, like she's strong.
1:05:55
Speaker 2: So maybe maybe she's kat Swayin's age like three three fifty,
1:05:59
Speaker 2: but like, yeah, yeah, she's not three thousand years old.
1:06:01
Speaker 2: She doesn't have three thousand years of experience.
1:06:03
Speaker 1: I'm convinced to convince the Dark One really has no
1:06:07
Speaker 1: ability to stop anyone from aging. He only has the
1:06:10
Speaker 1: ability to give you a new body when you die.
1:06:13
Speaker 1: Yeahs like none none of his forsaken live past normal
1:06:17
Speaker 1: channeling age.
1:06:19
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, they all get stacist into the bore like
1:06:23
Speaker 2: in the middle of their careers. They have no idea
1:06:26
Speaker 2: how old age is going to run up against the
1:06:29
Speaker 2: Lord of the grave.
1:06:30
Speaker 1: Like we have evidence, we don't have any evidence of
1:06:32
Speaker 1: a single person living beyond their natural lifespan for.
1:06:37
Speaker 2: No agon or is the closest we get to that
1:06:40
Speaker 2: because of being close to the edge of the boar
1:06:42
Speaker 2: and like aging preview right, right, right, that's such a
1:06:46
Speaker 2: unique one off case that can't really be applied to
1:06:49
Speaker 2: anyone else.
1:06:50
Speaker 1: That's that's a good' That is a good call. That
1:06:52
Speaker 1: he was preserved and when his when he was cut off,
1:06:55
Speaker 1: he did age very quickly.
1:06:57
Speaker 2: Right, Like there's something going on there, But like there's
1:07:00
Speaker 2: also weird singularity stuff with how the boar works that
1:07:03
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know, but yeah, the Samarak has
1:07:06
Speaker 2: no reason to answer their questions. She's deeply inclined not to,
1:07:11
Speaker 2: right and has no reason to. And like Kat'swain's very
1:07:15
Speaker 2: right that pain is the wrong approach with her, Like
1:07:18
Speaker 2: I mean, Samurag even thinks in her PIV later that
1:07:20
Speaker 2: like she was kind of looking forward to it because
1:07:22
Speaker 2: she wanted to know what it was like to be tortured. Right,
1:07:26
Speaker 2: pain would never have worked on her. It would never
1:07:28
Speaker 2: have worked. It's a silly thing for them to complain
1:07:30
Speaker 2: about not having But it's also like you should figure
1:07:33
Speaker 2: out something other than.
1:07:35
Speaker 1: In real world pain doesn't work on anybody.
1:07:37
Speaker 2: Stop telling me how you're gonna torture me. Well, and yeah,
1:07:41
Speaker 2: I mean, and then there's the fact that torture is
1:07:43
Speaker 2: stupid and doesn't work. It shouldn't be applied. But like
1:07:46
Speaker 2: within the context of this world where torture does work, apparently,
1:07:50
Speaker 2: like this is the lady of pain, it's not gonna
1:07:53
Speaker 2: work on her.
1:07:54
Speaker 1: I mean, torture gets someone. You can break someone with torture,
1:07:56
Speaker 1: and that's what she likes to do. That's where I
1:07:58
Speaker 1: think that like there is some legitimate that like you, oh,
1:08:01
Speaker 1: sure you.
1:08:02
Speaker 2: Can train people, right, you can train people. For sure.
1:08:05
Speaker 2: You can't get information that's accurate, but you can train people.
1:08:10
Speaker 1: Because they'll tell you whatever you want to hear, right,
1:08:14
Speaker 1: So you can train people to tell you whatever you
1:08:15
Speaker 1: want to hear. So you can definitely get a truth
1:08:18
Speaker 1: out of somebody. It's not the truth.
1:08:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can get them to say that there are
1:08:22
Speaker 2: four lights, right or not four lights whatever?
1:08:25
Speaker 1: No, even that one goes five lights, I think.
1:08:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, But like you can train people to have whatever
1:08:30
Speaker 2: behavior you want. And that's the thing is semarrog was
1:08:33
Speaker 2: not That's the thing is Robert Jordan isn't saying torture
1:08:36
Speaker 2: works with Summarug, He's just saying torture appeals. Samarag is
1:08:40
Speaker 2: just someone who likes torture for torture's sake. She's in
1:08:43
Speaker 2: it for the love of the game.
1:08:44
Speaker 1: All right. I have to ask you about this quote
1:08:46
Speaker 1: from coot swayin over two centuries ago. She'd sworn to
1:08:49
Speaker 1: herself that she'd lived within the last battle, no matter
1:08:51
Speaker 1: how long that took, using the one power of lengthens
1:08:54
Speaker 1: one's years, and she'd found that determination in grit could
1:08:58
Speaker 1: stretch those years.
1:08:59
Speaker 2: Even that is such an interesting line, right, What is
1:09:04
Speaker 2: she saying determination in grit can keep you going longer?
1:09:08
Speaker 1: Is it really because these people crawl away to die?
1:09:12
Speaker 1: Is that why they die and her desire to keep
1:09:15
Speaker 1: going is just or is it just like, oh, if
1:09:18
Speaker 1: I refuse to die, I'm not going to die. Or
1:09:20
Speaker 1: is it like something with the oaths? And because it
1:09:22
Speaker 1: was like, remember, the others are artificially shortening her life span,
1:09:27
Speaker 1: and that's what she's coming up on. That's what's killing
1:09:29
Speaker 1: her that that's.
1:09:31
Speaker 2: A really interesting point. Did she somehow mind gain the
1:09:36
Speaker 2: oaths into not shortening her life span or something. Is
1:09:41
Speaker 2: she fighting off the oaths constriction on her ability to
1:09:45
Speaker 2: live her to her appointed years.
1:09:47
Speaker 1: Or is it just that she's powerful enough that she
1:09:49
Speaker 1: has a much longer than normal. Naturally she's a eight
1:09:52
Speaker 1: hundred year life span, and so she was never going
1:09:54
Speaker 1: to die at three hundred years, because half that's four
1:09:56
Speaker 1: hundred years.
1:09:57
Speaker 2: I mean, there's that, but she had found the determination. Well,
1:10:02
Speaker 2: I guess that's the placebo effect.
1:10:04
Speaker 1: Though.
1:10:04
Speaker 2: She's like, I'm gonna not die.
1:10:06
Speaker 1: And then she doesn't die, so she's convinced that she
1:10:08
Speaker 1: did that to herself.
1:10:09
Speaker 2: Yeah right, Yeah, Well I drank the vitamin C and
1:10:12
Speaker 2: then I got better from the cold. So clearly the
1:10:14
Speaker 2: vitamin C is what cured me.
1:10:15
Speaker 1: Oh you really you got better from the cold three
1:10:17
Speaker 1: to seven days later, did you. I'm sure that vitamin
1:10:19
Speaker 1: C had a lot to do with it. A lot.
1:10:21
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yep, totally totally. That's not how it works.
1:10:28
Speaker 1: It works.
1:10:29
Speaker 2: It's vitamin C is great for you in the sense
1:10:32
Speaker 2: that it prevents scurvity, but the cold just went away
1:10:35
Speaker 2: because you slept and drank water. That's why the cold
1:10:38
Speaker 2: went away, and because that's what colds do. But mostly
1:10:41
Speaker 2: it was the sleeping and drinking water.
1:10:43
Speaker 1: Why is that so hard to convince people of people
1:10:46
Speaker 1: are convinced they can take something that will make them
1:10:47
Speaker 1: feel better.
1:10:48
Speaker 2: People want a quick fix, and they've been told that
1:10:51
Speaker 2: that's possible for so long, And the placebo effect is
1:10:54
Speaker 2: so real that it's it's an impenetrable wall of delusion.
1:10:59
Speaker 2: Does a Swiss cheese keep like model keeping logic from penetrating?
1:11:03
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying like, don't take you know, pain
1:11:05
Speaker 1: meds to add vil tilem all right, So if you
1:11:08
Speaker 1: feel better and treat your symptoms right, treat your symptoms absolutely, Oh.
1:11:12
Speaker 2: But understand what you're doing. Understand that you are treating symptoms.
1:11:16
Speaker 2: You are not curing the problem. And maybe some of
1:11:19
Speaker 2: those symptoms shouldn't be treated because they're part of your
1:11:22
Speaker 2: body's natural healing response.
1:11:23
Speaker 1: Maybe possibly I do wonder about the fever, right, like,
1:11:27
Speaker 1: I feel like that's one of those things that like,
1:11:29
Speaker 1: the only advice I've seen from it says like the
1:11:32
Speaker 1: fever can cause as much damage to your body as
1:11:34
Speaker 1: it can against the cold. So yeah, it might shorten
1:11:37
Speaker 1: the cold, but it doesn't necessarily isn't necessarily good for
1:11:40
Speaker 1: you long term because like you know, so I don't know.
1:11:45
Speaker 2: Same thing with inflammation with like sprains and stuff. It's like, eh, this,
1:11:50
Speaker 2: maybe there'd be some questions we should be asking about
1:11:53
Speaker 2: dealing with symptoms without talking about what the problem is.
1:11:58
Speaker 2: Just just a thing to think, but yeah, vitamin C
1:12:02
Speaker 2: vitamin mega dosing was popularized by a guy who went
1:12:07
Speaker 2: to my college. My college is also what's his face's
1:12:13
Speaker 2: alma mater. So they have a whole little presentation there,
1:12:17
Speaker 2: a whole little room set aside, and a whole little
1:12:19
Speaker 2: presentation about how he did a lot of really cool stuff,
1:12:21
Speaker 2: really important science, really important work, and was deeply and
1:12:26
Speaker 2: influentially wrong about a couple of things. Yeah, and vitamin
1:12:31
Speaker 2: mega dosing was one of those things, and it's one
1:12:33
Speaker 2: of his longest lasting But he did really important work
1:12:35
Speaker 2: on isolating vitamins right, right, Like, he did really critical
1:12:39
Speaker 2: research and then just ran with it a little too
1:12:41
Speaker 2: far and was good at marketing, and that was a problem.
1:12:46
Speaker 1: It's a very easy mistake to make. If a little
1:12:49
Speaker 1: of something is a good thing, then a lot of
1:12:52
Speaker 1: it must be a great thing, right, And it's a
1:12:54
Speaker 1: very easy mistake to make. I'm sure I make it
1:12:57
Speaker 1: all the time. Right, But the reality is in mega dosing,
1:13:01
Speaker 1: just your body has to deal with all the extra vitamins,
1:13:05
Speaker 1: which causes stress on your body, and it can lead
1:13:08
Speaker 1: to things like cancer, right like that, there's there's studies
1:13:10
Speaker 1: that have shown that, like overdosing your body on vitamins
1:13:13
Speaker 1: is bad for you and can increase rates of certain
1:13:16
Speaker 1: kinds of cancer. Like it's bad, it's bad, Like, get
1:13:20
Speaker 1: your vitamins. If you're deficient on something, take it right, Like,
1:13:22
Speaker 1: I'm not against vitamins, but mega dosing a broad spectrum
1:13:26
Speaker 1: of vitamins when you don't need them and you eat
1:13:28
Speaker 1: a healthy diet is so bad for you.
1:13:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was just dude was really excited and
1:13:36
Speaker 2: good at communicating that excitement and people just you can't
1:13:40
Speaker 2: put it that genie back in the bottle. It's just
1:13:43
Speaker 2: not possible. But uh anyway, And and.
1:13:48
Speaker 1: When you take a when you are vitamin deficient and
1:13:51
Speaker 1: you take a vitamin, it looks like a miracle cure.
1:13:55
Speaker 2: It does. Deficiencies are hell on the body.
1:13:59
Speaker 1: But once you get the right thing, your body can
1:14:01
Speaker 1: very quickly heal right, like and and will consistently look
1:14:04
Speaker 1: like it's healed. And when you see somebody else who
1:14:07
Speaker 1: is suffering from pain and they take this miracle cure
1:14:11
Speaker 1: that makes them better. Why would you not also try that,
1:14:14
Speaker 1: especially when it doesn't really make you that sick immediately obviously, right, Like, yeah,
1:14:21
Speaker 1: I can see why.
1:14:21
Speaker 2: Because the liver's very good at it filtering out excess shit.
1:14:24
Speaker 2: It's what it's for.
1:14:26
Speaker 1: But the more you use it anyway, we should stop
1:14:30
Speaker 1: being doctors because we are not doctors, and we should stalk.
1:14:33
Speaker 1: We're not doctors, just skeptics who like to read stuff
1:14:37
Speaker 1: on the internet.
1:14:38
Speaker 2: I literally learned that mega dosing was a bad marketing
1:14:41
Speaker 2: error at college. It's all I'm saying any way, speaking
1:14:46
Speaker 2: of bad medical science, Samarack, do you know what happens
1:14:50
Speaker 2: when a man's blood is completely removed and replaced with
1:14:54
Speaker 2: something else? He dies?
1:14:57
Speaker 1: Obviously?
1:15:00
Speaker 3: I love her.
1:15:01
Speaker 2: She's so evil.
1:15:03
Speaker 1: It's funny though then her whole like getting him to
1:15:05
Speaker 1: live for a whiles, Like what did she? She somehow
1:15:08
Speaker 1: manufacture synthetic oxygenated blood that kept someone alive for an hour,
1:15:12
Speaker 1: is what it seems like, which is pretty fucking cool.
1:15:15
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, for someone to survive for an hour, it
1:15:18
Speaker 2: means that she was able to put a fluid into
1:15:21
Speaker 2: this person's body that did move oxygen somehow.
1:15:25
Speaker 1: It's ah, Now, it seemed like it was slightly acidic.
1:15:28
Speaker 1: You know, maybe the pH was off and was kind
1:15:30
Speaker 1: of burning through his whole body. I don't know if
1:15:32
Speaker 1: that was by design or not, but it right, Yeah, yeah,
1:15:39
Speaker 1: it does semin As I was saying, it make guys,
1:15:43
Speaker 1: I am hitting a wall here, the oxygenated fluid from
1:15:47
Speaker 1: the abyss Vucci.
1:15:49
Speaker 2: I bet she made some perfectly working synthetic blood then
1:15:52
Speaker 2: poured hydrochloric acid in it just because, right, I mean,
1:15:58
Speaker 2: that would be very on and for her, She's like, oh,
1:16:01
Speaker 2: I figured out synthetic blood, but how do I make
1:16:03
Speaker 2: it just a little.
1:16:04
Speaker 1: Terrible or even just a little vinegar? Yeah?
1:16:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty terrible that she thought, how do I
1:16:10
Speaker 2: do full body blood transfusions and then used it just
1:16:13
Speaker 2: to torture people, Because it's like, that's pretty cool if
1:16:15
Speaker 2: you could like full body blood transfusion someone or partially
1:16:18
Speaker 2: transfuse them without like needing to poke holes in their skin.
1:16:21
Speaker 2: If you could just swep sea swapsies, that'd be cool. Yeah,
1:16:25
Speaker 2: that'd be pretty neat for medicine. But but she's like,
1:16:28
Speaker 2: I'm gonna you know, put eels in your blood or whatever,
1:16:31
Speaker 2: and like that's terrible.
1:16:32
Speaker 1: And think if she actually can't with legitimate synthetic blood, right,
1:16:35
Speaker 1: that would be so cool to be used during surgeries.
1:16:38
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, it just just be like, yeah, I'll
1:16:41
Speaker 2: just make more and just transfuse it into their body
1:16:43
Speaker 2: like it's fine. And then she's like, but I'm gonna
1:16:45
Speaker 2: put I'm gonna put saratcha.
1:16:50
Speaker 1: She's like that, just that asshole itching powder in your
1:16:53
Speaker 1: veins just to see how just.
1:16:56
Speaker 2: Just for said.
1:16:58
Speaker 1: Really she's just a frat prank gone wrong.
1:17:01
Speaker 2: Oh god, it's funny to watch people get that's totally
1:17:08
Speaker 2: who she is.
1:17:11
Speaker 1: But you know, cunning, yeah, but for cunning.
1:17:14
Speaker 2: All right, So yeah, Kat Swayin ends the interview because
1:17:16
Speaker 2: Maurice is getting a little a little freaked out, right,
1:17:19
Speaker 2: and they talk about the time thing.
1:17:23
Speaker 1: God Swayin worries about her breaking free right like like
1:17:26
Speaker 1: which is legitimate, like because if if they tie it off,
1:17:29
Speaker 1: she could break free.
1:17:31
Speaker 2: Mm hmm yeah, no, for sure, but the.
1:17:33
Speaker 1: Law says they have to have someone actively maintaining it,
1:17:35
Speaker 1: which is good that they obey the law because otherwise
1:17:39
Speaker 1: we do know for a sy can breakout right.
1:17:41
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why shid O Haran has to directly
1:17:43
Speaker 2: intervene to affect the breakout is because the techniques being
1:17:47
Speaker 2: used are very water tight. You need a literal hand
1:17:50
Speaker 2: of Satan to come in and move some pawns around
1:17:52
Speaker 2: to change the conditions.
1:17:54
Speaker 1: But I can see why she wishes she has for
1:17:56
Speaker 1: group because I think would have stopped stopped the shot
1:17:58
Speaker 1: at Haran, right, because just freeing her wouldn't have let
1:18:01
Speaker 1: her then have the power again.
1:18:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, you really just have to wait
1:18:06
Speaker 2: for the drugs to worry. That's the only way.
1:18:10
Speaker 1: I can think. Maybe the dark one's healing might be
1:18:13
Speaker 1: able to purge it from their body. I think it
1:18:14
Speaker 1: would be really painful. Maybe just swap out the blood
1:18:18
Speaker 1: she's just talking about that. No, you can't have fourk
1:18:22
Speaker 1: root in your blood if you don't have any blood.
1:18:24
Speaker 2: That's true. You can't channel if you don't have any body.
1:18:31
Speaker 2: The other thing, she thinks about putting the eye doom
1:18:34
Speaker 2: on samarag And I'm curious if that would work, because
1:18:39
Speaker 2: the eye doom can be used for more than torture,
1:18:42
Speaker 2: Like if we get really, if we really think about it, like,
1:18:45
Speaker 2: could the eye doom be a way to control Samarag.
1:18:50
Speaker 1: I think in the hands of a soul doom, Samarak
1:18:52
Speaker 1: would break like anybody else.
1:18:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and experienced sol dom, not necessarily codswin. I
1:18:58
Speaker 2: feel I feel like with with the hitd On is
1:19:01
Speaker 2: very water tight and I feel like with enough time
1:19:04
Speaker 2: and it really determines told On. Yeah, I feel like
1:19:07
Speaker 2: even Samarog would ultimately get broken down and made into
1:19:11
Speaker 2: a tool.
1:19:12
Speaker 1: Just because you understand the technique doesn't make you resistant
1:19:16
Speaker 1: to the technique.
1:19:17
Speaker 2: Right, And there's always going to be more of them
1:19:19
Speaker 2: ready to throw their will against you than you than.
1:19:22
Speaker 1: You And like in training with pain, it doesn't matter.
1:19:26
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that you understand you're being trained with pain,
1:19:28
Speaker 1: You're still going to be Like Simarrog doesn't enjoy pain.
1:19:32
Speaker 1: She still feels pain and doesn't like it. She might
1:19:35
Speaker 1: be more resistant to it than the average person, but like,
1:19:38
Speaker 1: I don't know this, there's a little bit of a
1:19:41
Speaker 1: I don't like the superhuman bend on Semarog that she
1:19:44
Speaker 1: has this ability to just ignore pain, right, because the
1:19:47
Speaker 1: whole point of the Forsaken is there a bunch of
1:19:49
Speaker 1: bumbling idiots, normal people like the rest of us, who
1:19:51
Speaker 1: are just selfish and that's why they get to be
1:19:53
Speaker 1: forsaken and they have some power. Right, they're just billionaires.
1:19:57
Speaker 1: They're selfish with power, right, and so like right, they
1:20:01
Speaker 1: shouldn't be special.
1:20:03
Speaker 2: And they're just as fragile and stupid as anyone else.
1:20:06
Speaker 1: Exactly right, right, So I don't see Simarong having any
1:20:11
Speaker 1: she thinks she does, right, that's the whole point. She
1:20:14
Speaker 1: thinks she can resist anything. Yeah, but no one's actually
1:20:17
Speaker 1: tortured her yet ever. And the second, the second she's
1:20:20
Speaker 1: degraded a little bit, she cracks like a fucking egg,
1:20:22
Speaker 1: I know.
1:20:23
Speaker 2: Right, Like, and it's not the pain that breaks her,
1:20:26
Speaker 2: it's the degradation. But still it takes a whole thirty
1:20:30
Speaker 2: seconds of being humiliated and she's like, I'm broken, And
1:20:33
Speaker 2: it's like I feeling you should have been a little
1:20:36
Speaker 2: bit more prepared for that. You should have been tougher.
1:20:40
Speaker 1: Although he is trying to set us up for this
1:20:41
Speaker 1: in this chapter, set us up for that moment in
1:20:43
Speaker 1: this chapter where god Swain is like, how would I
1:20:46
Speaker 1: break myself? Because that's the clue that gives her the oh,
1:20:49
Speaker 1: I would humiliate myself.
1:20:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I still think kad Swain would be able to
1:20:53
Speaker 2: stand up to that for longer than some.
1:20:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think most people would. There's a certain
1:21:00
Speaker 1: amount of like, oh, her pride broke her, and I
1:21:02
Speaker 1: kind of rolled my eyes at that.
1:21:03
Speaker 2: I'll be honest, Yeah, I don't. I don't understand pride
1:21:07
Speaker 2: that strong. I'm not sure it exists, but authors of
1:21:12
Speaker 2: fantasy books very much believe it exists, So I guess
1:21:15
Speaker 2: we'll have to let it go.
1:21:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there is something that said, like the channelers
1:21:19
Speaker 1: disconnect from their bodies. They seem to be able to
1:21:22
Speaker 1: when they're channeling at least disregard pain, at least Randas
1:21:26
Speaker 1: when he uses the void, right, Like, so maybe there's.
1:21:28
Speaker 2: Something Yeah that dissociation's wrong.
1:21:31
Speaker 1: So maybe maybe she's just really good at it.
1:21:33
Speaker 2: But also she seems to be, like, you know, pain curious,
1:21:39
Speaker 2: so you know.
1:21:40
Speaker 1: Who knows? Who knows? Well, we don't get to see it, fortunately.
1:21:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I don't want to see it, But
1:21:49
Speaker 2: I don't like how it goes in the book either,
1:21:53
Speaker 2: So I don't know fair. But we do get summer
1:21:56
Speaker 2: rog identifying Kadsman as the person in charge like Cadsman.
1:21:59
Speaker 2: See how she doesn't even pay attention to Maurice it's like, yeah, okay,
1:22:03
Speaker 2: obviously obviously obviously.
1:22:06
Speaker 1: Some internal thoughts about Randon Codswayne here. I thought we're interesting.
1:22:10
Speaker 2: I like that she almost admits failure.
1:22:13
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:22:14
Speaker 2: I like that she calls out what she's taught him
1:22:16
Speaker 2: as a feigning civility. I like that she's at least
1:22:19
Speaker 2: self aware enough to be like, I have basically royally
1:22:23
Speaker 2: screwed the pooch with this one. I like that moment
1:22:26
Speaker 2: of internal awareness at least.
1:22:28
Speaker 1: Also feels like a Brandon Sanders moment looking at the
1:22:31
Speaker 1: plotline being like, okay, so she's basically taught him nothing.
1:22:34
Speaker 1: I get that. Also, I see the probable address that, yeah,
1:22:41
Speaker 1: so I will have her summoned tam. And also I
1:22:46
Speaker 1: don't like that solution, Like, I understand why he wrote
1:22:50
Speaker 1: it that way, but I wanted Codswayne herself to teach
1:22:53
Speaker 1: him something, not codswayin to summon the person who would
1:22:57
Speaker 1: help him have the epiphany.
1:22:59
Speaker 2: It's her role was diminished down to messenger emotional labor
1:23:05
Speaker 2: between a father and son, right, Like that, come on,
1:23:08
Speaker 2: She's worth more than just a freaking female stereotype. Like
1:23:11
Speaker 2: this is some sexy lamp bullshit.
1:23:13
Speaker 1: I'm noddy that is.
1:23:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would have been way better if she had
1:23:18
Speaker 2: somehow figured out how to just mean because like Moraine
1:23:22
Speaker 2: did it right. Moraine like did a like really strong
1:23:24
Speaker 2: ninety degree turn right at the end and figured out
1:23:27
Speaker 2: how to interact with Rand very differently than she had
1:23:29
Speaker 2: been before. Like there was room for Katswain to pivot
1:23:32
Speaker 2: and do something different, and instead, yeah, she got Tan
1:23:36
Speaker 2: to do it. That's yeah, not my There's a lot
1:23:39
Speaker 2: about what Kat Swayin does with between Beans and Tam.
1:23:42
Speaker 1: It's not what I.
1:23:44
Speaker 2: Wanted to.
1:23:46
Speaker 1: One of the things she says that I wanted to
1:23:48
Speaker 1: talk about is the boy was destined to destroy the
1:23:50
Speaker 1: world and maybe save it too. The first was inevitable,
1:23:54
Speaker 1: the second conditional. So she for sure thinks as a
1:23:57
Speaker 1: prophecy that he might save the world mm hmmm, which
1:24:01
Speaker 1: I don't think is guaranteed in really many of the prophecies,
1:24:03
Speaker 1: but she certainly has read something that says that, I.
1:24:06
Speaker 2: Mean, you gotta have hope, right, These prophecies do all
1:24:09
Speaker 2: sort of the reason why there's drama there is because
1:24:11
Speaker 2: there is the hope that it might go better. Right.
1:24:14
Speaker 2: The hope is sort of there if you read between
1:24:15
Speaker 2: the lines.
1:24:16
Speaker 1: I suppose, and she has good at reading between the lines,
1:24:18
Speaker 1: so all right, I'll give her that. Yeah, I don't
1:24:20
Speaker 1: think there's any like real thing. You don't think she
1:24:23
Speaker 1: has any inside information that isn't otherwise available.
1:24:26
Speaker 2: No, I think she's just a scholar and has put
1:24:28
Speaker 2: together all the different translations and versions and interpretations, and
1:24:31
Speaker 2: it's just like, yeah, there's definitely a good chance the
1:24:33
Speaker 2: dragon could save the world, maybe possibly, And.
1:24:37
Speaker 1: Then that sort of ends with the question how do
1:24:39
Speaker 1: you break one of the most powerful women whoever lived?
1:24:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, which turns out as listening to Harriet dictate a
1:24:46
Speaker 2: scene about.
1:24:47
Speaker 1: Beans means.
1:24:50
Speaker 2: Brandon Sanderson is on record as being upset about the beans,
1:24:53
Speaker 2: but Harriet insisted, and that's why we have it. Like
1:24:56
Speaker 2: Sanderson has been clear that this is not his fault.
1:24:59
Speaker 2: We should not be at him about it.
1:25:02
Speaker 1: Okay, I will be mad at somebody else during these Harriet. Ah.
1:25:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently Harriet insisted on the beans for whatever reason,
1:25:11
Speaker 2: so we all have to live with that knowledge. Yeah,
1:25:15
Speaker 2: it's uh, it's it's an interesting chapter of setup of
1:25:19
Speaker 2: Sanderson letting us know here. So I'm going to handle
1:25:22
Speaker 2: the kadsway in Samarog situation. But I don't. I don't.
1:25:27
Speaker 2: I don't feel like it's realistic to say I'm going
1:25:29
Speaker 2: to break this person and extract all the information from
1:25:32
Speaker 2: their head before I execute them. I just don't think
1:25:34
Speaker 2: that's a realistic way of dealing with the foresake, and
1:25:36
Speaker 2: I think you should just execute them. I don't think
1:25:39
Speaker 2: the whole letting them take their knowledge to the grave
1:25:42
Speaker 2: is a good reason to keep them alive. It just
1:25:44
Speaker 2: doesn't go well. You should just get rid of them,
1:25:45
Speaker 2: take them off the board. Of course, if you kill them,
1:25:49
Speaker 2: the dark Word can pop them back into a fresh
1:25:51
Speaker 2: body and then you don't know who they are and
1:25:54
Speaker 2: you've wasted all that ever, So I mean, you got
1:25:56
Speaker 2: a bail, fire them, and we've got this whole leg
1:25:59
Speaker 2: do them beautifully people and things like rule.
1:26:02
Speaker 1: I feel like you could steal them and imprison them
1:26:04
Speaker 1: and that would be an effective way to keep them
1:26:05
Speaker 1: off the board for a while.
1:26:07
Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, totally, you can. You can let old
1:26:10
Speaker 2: Dage execute them. Just yeah, totally still them and put
1:26:14
Speaker 2: them in a guarded dungeon and just have them stay there.
1:26:18
Speaker 2: That would work. That would work to take them off
1:26:20
Speaker 2: the board.
1:26:21
Speaker 1: Or if your ran pull them into tele ron riad
1:26:23
Speaker 1: and cut the band, and if their guy cut the
1:26:25
Speaker 1: bands that link them to the dark one that worked
1:26:28
Speaker 1: with Asmodian pretty well, yeah, neutralized him.
1:26:31
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. Or you could just buy afire them just
1:26:33
Speaker 2: a tiny, just a little for morale as.
1:26:38
Speaker 1: A microsecond back in time. It doesn't have to be.
1:26:40
Speaker 2: Wine right exactly exactly, it's just just crrupting the pattern
1:26:45
Speaker 2: a little bit, just thirteen times, that's all you gotta do.
1:26:49
Speaker 1: And some of them are already done, so not even
1:26:50
Speaker 1: that many exactly.
1:26:51
Speaker 2: We've only got like one or two one hand at
1:26:53
Speaker 2: any given time.
1:26:55
Speaker 1: It's fine, take them those shadow logos. I mean, it's
1:26:58
Speaker 1: at late for that. But you know, back in the day,
1:27:00
Speaker 1: ta him to shry to do it, randon, let masha
1:27:03
Speaker 1: Dar do its thing, you know, corrupt their souls in
1:27:05
Speaker 1: a way that the dark one can't recover from.
1:27:07
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I bet the dark one can't recover a Mashadard.
1:27:10
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the explanation for Samuel, right, because
1:27:13
Speaker 1: he yeah, he never came back after and ran didn't
1:27:18
Speaker 1: bailfire him. He got he got.
1:27:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would probably have some sort of weird psycho
1:27:24
Speaker 2: spiritual fungal thing on him that that makes him unrecoverable.
1:27:28
Speaker 2: I like it.
1:27:29
Speaker 1: He'd just be kind of one of I imagine Fane's zombies,
1:27:34
Speaker 1: right with the spirit that's been eaten away? Right, totally? Well,
1:27:37
Speaker 1: because I mean essentially Mashadar eats your soul, right, so
1:27:41
Speaker 1: what what would the dark one have to recover and
1:27:44
Speaker 1: put into another body? Nothing, The soul's gone, it's been eating.
1:27:47
Speaker 1: It's part of the mist now.
1:27:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. It's like getting bailfired in terms of
1:27:53
Speaker 2: your ability to return to the wheel.
1:27:55
Speaker 1: I think bailfire actually is better because at least, oh yeah.
1:27:59
Speaker 2: No true, oh yeah, you're caught in the fog for
1:28:01
Speaker 2: all time. Ooh until Matt destroys it with his noble sacrifice,
1:28:07
Speaker 2: at which point one would hope all if that energy
1:28:09
Speaker 2: would get released back to just the general ether and
1:28:12
Speaker 2: not be cursed anymore.
1:28:13
Speaker 1: Right right, yeah? Man. The whole question about eternal souls
1:28:17
Speaker 1: in the Wheel of Time is a little weird, right, Like,
1:28:20
Speaker 1: do you get erased forever if you're killed and till
1:28:25
Speaker 1: run re odd? I don't think you are. I don't
1:28:28
Speaker 1: think you are. I think you re incarnate. I think
1:28:30
Speaker 1: you come back because there is I think souls are eternal.
1:28:33
Speaker 1: I think that there's no way that you can have
1:28:35
Speaker 1: an eternal turning the wheel with souls being eliminated. And
1:28:38
Speaker 1: I think Hopper will come back at some point in
1:28:40
Speaker 1: the future.
1:28:41
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Cyclical time and souls just present a lot
1:28:45
Speaker 2: of paradoxes. You just have to choose how you want
1:28:48
Speaker 2: that to resolve and go from there. But yeah, there
1:28:52
Speaker 2: you go. That was two chapters of the Wheel of
1:28:54
Speaker 2: Time in under two hours. Because so little happened.
1:29:00
Speaker 1: It was men being men and Cat Swayne being weird
1:29:04
Speaker 1: Kat Swayne. Yeah, godswayn Codswayne, Let Bartlet be a Bartlett.
1:29:12
Speaker 2: All right, well yeah that was what I got.
1:29:14
Speaker 1: Thank you everybody was here live legend. Thank you again
1:29:17
Speaker 1: for the chapter artwork. That looks fantastic.
1:29:20
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, three quotes.
1:29:22
Speaker 3: That's fun.
1:29:22
Speaker 1: Well it's three pos.
1:29:24
Speaker 2: Mm hmm yeah, two chapters three that's good stuff.
1:29:26
Speaker 1: Nice, all right, thank you. Everybody. Talk to you next week,
1:29:29
Speaker 1: same bat time, same bad place.
1:29:31
Speaker 2: No, no, no, we will not know. This is our last
1:29:33
Speaker 2: recording of the year.
1:29:34
Speaker 1: Oh right, because next it's right dissent. It's Christmas.
1:29:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, holidays.
1:30:32
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
1:30:35
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1:30:38
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1:30:42
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1:30:45
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1:30:49
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