Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / JK and Victor Clash Over Tony Brown’s All Blacks Return

Transcript

JK and Victor Clash Over Tony Brown’s All Blacks Return · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
Plenty brown, that's the story brownies back.
0:02
I just asked something, you don't select players that don't play New Zealand,
0:07
but you do select coaches that don't play New Zealand.
0:10
What's the difference? Why is that a lot?
0:13
That's a very good point, but it's a very good point mate.
0:16
Go the balls, I told you.
0:18
21-3 down, two yellow cards, going for the intercept.
0:23
I mean you always go with one hand.
0:25
I just think why should it be a yellow card?
0:27
If you go for it and you miss it, I think it's a penalty and one point to the opposition.
0:32
We've got the nation's cups coming up soon in a few weeks time.
0:35
I mean southern hemisphere teams versus northern hemisphere teams.
0:39
Victor, where do you see yourselves? Are you northern hemisphere team?
0:43
No, maybe when you get the new glasses, Jacob.
0:46
Jacob, you get the new glasses.
0:48
You can have a new view on the rack, but it's the trouble with the club.
0:52
You've had too many years of rubbing your,
0:55
rubbing your ears between the asses of props, which is never good for anyone's head.
1:03
Welcome, big week on rugby rivals, lots to talk about.
1:06
And by the way, don't forget we're on Spotify as well,
1:09
and Apple and everywhere else you get your podcasts.
1:12
So you can listen to us while you're watching the car or going to work or lying in bed.
1:17
Imagine that, just think to us, lying in bed.
1:19
What a great thing to do.
1:21
Do they have to look at JK or can they just listen?
1:25
No, because they don't have to see where those glasses might be better this show.
1:28
Yeah. No, I think even round up here, guys.
1:31
I've just ordered a new pair, especially for you, Victor.
1:33
So I'll be rolling them out, hopefully for the rivals tour, mate.
1:37
I'll be bringing them all through with me.
1:38
Can you get some bigger ones?
1:40
Is that possible?
1:42
Ricardo, I'll tell you about it, but leave the faction.
1:45
Which week they should just get bigger and bigger and bigger.
1:48
I'll tell you to be pretty happy this this morning though.
1:50
You Victor, the bulls, mate.
1:52
How good is that?
1:53
Go the bulls.
1:54
I told you.
1:55
I told you that will be there.
1:58
What a game.
1:59
Gentlemen, gentlemen, you don't try or met JK.
2:04
I'm the presenter here.
2:06
Well, you're waffling on about my glasses, so I thought I'd get started.
2:10
Tony Brown is the story I want to start with.
2:12
Tony Brown is the story brownies back.
2:15
Yeah, well, it's World Cup, boys.
2:18
This is when our third one, and then you can have it.
2:20
Because then we need some competition.
2:24
I think it's like a reaction on the New Zealand Rugby Union.
2:28
Do anything like this though.
2:29
So I'm really actually quite excited about it.
2:32
Like for them to announce something so far ahead.
2:35
For me, as the first time I've seen them sort of be really positive
2:42
in what they want to do moving forward.
2:43
So I think it's, you know, I understand he's got to stay and do his job.
2:47
And then we're going to steal all your IP,
2:49
but then bring it back to New Zealand,
2:50
which is what you guys have done with Brownie in the first place.
2:53
So it's going to be one back.
2:58
But remember, yeah.
2:59
So the one thing I do like about Russia is he's open communication.
3:03
I mean, before the previous World Cup, as well with you,
3:08
Jack and Felix is going to leave almost a year before the World Cup.
3:14
And I mean, they stole their fantastic jobs.
3:17
So it's all about open communication.
3:20
And also, I mean, that must be Tony's dream.
3:23
He's a New Zealander.
3:24
He's a proud, all black.
3:26
I mean, must be the ultimate job for him.
3:28
So yeah, we'll use him.
3:32
We'll tap into all his knowledge for the last year.
3:35
Hopefully you get to World Cup as well with a box.
3:39
And yeah, then it's going to be even a bigger rivalry.
3:43
I think you're totally.
3:44
I think that the interesting thing for me, Ricardo, is that I didn't think that Dave
3:50
Rinne had signed.
3:52
What is his contract situation?
3:53
Yeah, I think you're a little cut.
3:56
Yeah, I think he's on his side.
3:57
I just asked something.
3:58
I just asked something.
4:00
So you don't, you don't select players.
4:04
They don't play New Zealand.
4:06
But you do select coaches that don't play New Zealand.
4:09
What's the difference?
4:10
Why is that a lot?
4:12
That's a very good point, but it's a very good point, mate.
4:16
And I'll think up some answers shortly,
4:18
but I don't have one right at the moment.
4:20
Yeah.
4:21
Now, look, I think, I think the contract is from 28 and he can't do anything.
4:26
So the players do the same.
4:28
They'll resign back like one has,
4:31
but they've got to be back in the country.
4:33
So, you know, that wasn't that all wound up.
4:36
I picked that all wound up, Victor.
4:38
It's already had, like.
4:40
I'm just trying to make up why we see it.
4:44
Is there a concern, Victor, that, yeah, JK is joking,
4:47
but they will bring all that Spring Book IP into the All Black environment?
4:51
I don't think so.
4:52
I mean, when I played with that Bull Steam,
4:55
that really dominated and I think what Russia is doing at the moment,
5:00
I think everyone knows what the DNA of the Spring Mox are.
5:03
They want to dominate CFP's.
5:06
They want to dominate territory,
5:08
kicking game, aerial battle is so important for us.
5:12
And then we've got some X factor players from the wings and the outside backs.
5:17
Something we've probably changed in the last few years.
5:19
We went to smaller, quicker guys that can really step and can hurt you
5:24
from anywhere on the field.
5:26
So, I think most of the guys know exactly what we're doing, how we do it.
5:31
Yes, of course, I remember when he had a small wing to Ireland.
5:35
And I mean, he worked with me for hours on Ana,
5:39
so it was pretty difficult because he knew exactly how I thought about the game.
5:42
So, of course, there will be certain things that he probably
5:45
be able to take there, but remember, it's going to be the same way the way around.
5:50
I mean, he's sharing everything with the box, he's keeping his best
5:54
to the team. So, when he goes there, we'll also know our heathings
5:58
and what he would like to get out of the deck.
6:02
Well, I think the game moves pretty fast now too, Ricardo.
6:06
And if you think about our game,
6:09
besides the odd DNA difference, which is what Victor is talking about,
6:14
it's pretty much, except possibly a few of the French sides,
6:20
like you know, got an ol' bin, things like that.
6:23
You know, there's everyone's playing pods, everyone's doing sort of the kicks,
6:28
everyone's doing pretty much the same.
6:30
There's not a lot of innovation in the game at the moment,
6:32
so I don't think there's a lot.
6:36
I think it's really the ability of the coaches nowadays to get the best out of the players as well,
6:40
and that's one thing that that Brownie's very good at, is very good at giving players
6:45
the confidence to try stuff. So, I don't think there's too much, too much of a bother.
6:50
Back in the day in New Zealand, what used to happen at the end of Super Rugby is
6:55
all the coaches would get together and share their ideas.
6:59
And people overseas was like, why would you do that?
7:01
Well, once you've shared your ideas, you've got to get better and move on and
7:05
start being a bit more innovative, you know?
7:07
And it's, yeah, it's all about execution.
7:11
For me, it's always about people say, listen, what's game plan, one what's game plan,
7:16
B, C, D, and as soon as we're about that, it's about having all these options and getting your
7:23
players to make better decisions in the moment because of what they see in front of them.
7:29
And I think that's where Tony had a big impact with his frameworks as well,
7:33
it's really to look up, see what's happening in front of you and then to make the right calls.
7:39
So I think that's what it's about. It's not about we're going to play this style.
7:43
That style is all about making the right decisions under pressure,
7:48
yeah, in the face of defences.
7:53
So I still haven't got an answer.
7:54
Please let me turn on your question about the sleeping players from overseas.
7:58
It's such a good question.
8:00
There is, I mean, Tony doesn't have to, otherwise Tony would have to come back.
8:07
Coach super ragged me and then he can be selected for all of that.
8:10
How they and Dave ring.
8:11
Same.
8:11
Both of them.
8:14
So it's like a politician JK.
8:17
I didn't answer it like a politician.
8:19
I told the truth.
8:19
I've signed to come back.
8:20
They're the best available coaches and my coaches.
8:24
So I can't talk about talking about a total of five coaches instead.
8:28
660 New Zealanders playing overseas, you know.
8:32
Well, you just got to you just got to watch any any rugby game in any
8:35
traditional arts, full of of New Zealand and South Africa players.
8:40
A lot like that.
8:41
And just seeing how some of the old Blacks will be a full of them can play for the whole Blacks.
8:45
You say they're based.
8:46
Yeah, but we can't do it by a little.
8:48
It'll it'll kill all the other teams and super ragged me.
8:54
There's always new talent coming through New Zealand.
8:57
I mean, in the old days, even, I mean, you always have four, five teams.
9:01
We saw the Africa probably got two, three quality teams.
9:04
You always got four, five.
9:06
Yeah, look, we need a hybrid, mate.
9:08
We need a hybrid situation.
9:09
This is, I think I've spoken to you about this before.
9:12
But obviously, maybe when you get the new glasses, JK,
9:16
JK, if you get the new glasses, you can have a new view on rackets.
9:20
The trouble with that, you've had too many years of rubbing your,
9:24
rubbing your ears between the asses of props, which is never good for anyone's heed.
9:29
But actually, I tell you're talking of, um, talking of New Zealanders.
9:33
I haven't answered Ricardo.
9:34
I haven't, I haven't answered.
9:36
I was just getting bored.
9:38
Carry on.
9:38
No, but I'm just, I just want to make this strong point that we need a hybrid competition
9:43
like a European cup with the South African sides back in.
9:47
And then we should pick players that are playing within that competition.
9:50
So if we have a player that goes and plays for the Bulls in South Africa,
9:56
but then he's playing against New Zealand's sides, we should pick them.
9:58
We've got to control our destiny a wee bit.
10:02
At the moment, with players going to France and Japan and stuff,
10:05
we're not controlling our destiny.
10:07
So that's our problem.
10:08
You know, when we can't afford to keep our players, that's the problem,
10:14
because we've got such a small economy.
10:15
So anyway, move on.
10:16
I've had to answer this call.
10:17
You mentioned the Bulls.
10:19
Now you can celebrate that, Dr.
10:21
I can count the Bulls.
10:23
Told you, I wanted to wear my Bull shirt, but I wore it next week,
10:26
because it's a week off before we play the finals.
10:31
But yeah, what a comeback.
10:33
I mean, 21, 3 down, two yellow cards.
10:39
And I mean, just to show that character to come back.
10:42
And I must say, I need to give credit to you on our command.
10:46
Since he came in, I mean, under the Jake White era,
10:50
it was almost like, when we play this big game,
10:53
so away from home, we don't take our strongest side.
10:57
We wait for the home games to win it.
10:59
And since you're on, I mean,
11:01
I mean, they've got a fantastic record on the road away from home.
11:05
Every time he takes his biggest or strongest squad that he can take.
11:11
And they also believe that they can win.
11:13
They're having fun.
11:14
I hear there's every Wednesday, there's contickies and fines,
11:19
meetings, so they really enjoy each other's company.
11:22
And they go over there.
11:23
They get away from all the pressure in South Africa.
11:26
And they just go express themselves.
11:28
So, yeah, you would have been even doubly excited about the scrum, Victor.
11:35
Because that was a point of difference, right?
11:37
Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, if you look at the Bulls team,
11:40
that's probably the one thing where they're stronger than any other team.
11:44
I mean, they've got the two front rows.
11:46
I mean, the unhindered vessels and Wulco low coming off the bench.
11:52
I mean, any other team must just think,
11:55
oh, no, it's just getting worse for us.
11:57
So, yeah, of course.
11:59
I mean, that's directly struggled,
12:01
but the lengths of the scrum struggled a wee bit with the stormers scrum as well.
12:05
So I thought, wow, and the final, that's going to be a really interesting point, right?
12:09
Yeah.
12:10
And I mean, if you think about it, we're all
12:13
this worried of Island, right?
12:18
We saw that it was actually last year against the Springboks at scrum time when
12:23
Russia at 35 minutes put on Wulco low,
12:26
and Gerard Siena come to two Bulls front rows,
12:28
and they just killed the Irish back.
12:31
So, yeah, it will be a worry for Island.
12:36
I mean, again, you need to be
12:39
if the discipline, not to give scrum penalty or scrums away.
12:44
I think on your own ball, you can get away with Channel 1,
12:46
really get it in and out, get it away.
12:49
But, yeah, on the Bulls' ball, I don't think we'll see them play away from that scrum too often,
12:56
or we go for the penalty.
12:58
But again, yeah.
12:59
I don't think that there's anything I thought the game management was really good.
13:04
A lot of people talk about Andre had an off-game,
13:07
yes, dead mystery kicks, but I thought generally really played Wul.
13:12
He was on that vantage line.
13:14
He mentally really managed the game Wul,
13:17
so I thought they're really good in the second half, especially.
13:21
Oh, he's still talking about the cinnamon mystery like that?
13:24
No.
13:25
But I didn't need it.
13:26
Yeah, I mean, kicks in when it's needed.
13:28
It was a lot of, that's too semi-finals, a lot of cards, wasn't there?
13:35
Yeah, Jacob, I mean, we've spoken about this.
13:38
This going for the intercept.
13:41
I mean, you always go with one hand.
13:43
This never intercepts, we really catch it through to one hand,
13:47
you get it, and the other hand comes towards it.
13:50
I just think the way they're referring it is just crazy.
13:56
I mean, the reaction is going to be there.
13:59
If there's opportunity interceptable, you're going,
14:01
and I mean, 50% of the time you catch it, 50 you don't.
14:05
So give the penalty away.
14:06
Give the knock on.
14:07
Why should it be a yellow guard?
14:09
Except if it's like a slap-down.
14:11
Actually, I hate saying this, Victor,
14:13
but I'm actually with you.
14:14
We've got to think differently in our game.
14:16
I'm going to go back to it.
14:18
If you go for a intercept, it's a big part of the game,
14:23
especially in South Africa.
14:25
I mean, you've got a couple of intercept tries against Australia,
14:27
remember?
14:29
If you go for it and you miss it,
14:31
I think it's a penalty and one point to the opposition.
14:34
Let's start thinking differently rather than yellow cards.
14:37
Why can't we come up with something else?
14:39
I'm really, really strong on this.
14:42
Letting the players control their own destiny
14:44
rather than letting the rest decide.
14:46
Like I say, three penalties in the 22 penalty,
14:50
but then there's a point on the school board.
14:52
And the players will start rafting themselves.
14:55
And that's what we need to get to.
14:56
Because I think with so many red cards now with head knocks,
14:59
with the high tackles and stuff,
15:01
which is really, really hard to judge.
15:03
I mean, now, I think a year on from us having this discussion,
15:07
the players are really, really trying to get down.
15:09
But the yellow cards, I see, both players are now down.
15:12
How do you stop that?
15:13
Right?
15:14
I think we need to think differently about our disciplines.
15:17
I'm pretty sure there's not a lot of malice in it.
15:19
I mean, I don't know whether you saw the one
15:21
on Leicester Fa' Anuku in the Super game.
15:24
That was a massive hit from the Blues ball.
15:27
You know, that was pretty, I would go,
15:30
yeah, you got your timing wrong, great hit, but too high.
15:34
I would say, yeah, that's a yellow card.
15:36
But the others, I'm going.
15:38
But also, it's Victor's saying,
15:40
you know, quite often in that intercept situation,
15:42
it's just a reflex.
15:43
You're not actually trying to be something negative.
15:46
You see the ball, you're putting your hand,
15:47
you're trying to grab the ball with one hand.
15:50
You know, maybe just a penalty.
15:52
I think it's just a penalty at one point.
15:55
I mean, if it's a slap down, you can see the guy
15:58
can't get it and he'd sit down.
15:59
Remember, in the old days, it wasn't even,
16:02
it was just a, if it swings upward, it was just a knock on.
16:05
It wasn't, the only penalty was when you knocked it down.
16:07
Now the guys go for it, it goes up,
16:10
and it's still a penalty and a yellow card.
16:13
So yeah, I mean, and the other game, the stormers game,
16:16
there was two yellow cards at the end of the game.
16:19
I mean, Akaman coming in with that clean.
16:21
That's it.
16:22
I mean, that does almost get great.
16:23
Do you go read God your stupid get off the field?
16:26
I mean, there was a tent, but then you go again to Murat.
16:30
He's here, doesn't, yeah, you can't see,
16:33
speak up the ball, and he gets a yellow card.
16:35
I mean, he didn't see that.
16:37
So I just think we need to have a look at that.
16:40
Are there some amazing actor Victor, like most sick and rose?
16:44
Amazing actors, like most sick and rose,
16:46
but I agree with you.
16:48
I agree with you.
16:49
I don't think he was acting.
16:51
I don't think he saw that.
16:52
And when you looked on screen,
16:54
I was the first one sitting in my lounge going,
16:56
now that's not a yellow card.
16:57
That's just a penalty because I actually don't think
17:00
he did it on purpose.
17:01
And what about the bit of a scuffle there in the tunnel?
17:04
I thought that was a bit stupid.
17:07
Bring it on, mate.
17:08
Love that sort of stuff.
17:09
Are you good?
17:10
And you never scuffle with anyone.
17:13
For what's neat, just need to get to nature there.
17:16
Off time break.
17:18
It's 41 minutes.
17:19
What are the rules if you have a punch up in the...
17:20
What are the rules if you have a punch up in the off the field?
17:24
Did the field rules apply?
17:26
I wonder.
17:27
It'll be interesting.
17:28
I don't know.
17:29
Actually, really don't know.
17:30
That'll be good.
17:31
Just step over the sideline down with good old-fashioned dust up.
17:36
And Jake came in.
17:37
I don't think I'd be anywhere involved, Bracotta, as you know.
17:41
But your blues are in the semi-finals, even though they lost.
17:45
Yeah, that's...
17:46
I mean, I'm really stoked about that.
17:48
You know, you get a couple of lives, but it's...
17:50
I don't... I mean, one of the other things that the super rugby need to do,
17:55
they need to start sorting out their competitions and changing them every...
17:59
Because did you know about that rule, Bracotta?
18:01
I didn't know about it at all.
18:02
They announced it.
18:04
Right through, is that?
18:05
So the blues have lost, but because they've got the highest points,
18:08
they're back in the playoffs.
18:10
So they've lost their more than four teams in the playoffs.
18:16
Six teams.
18:17
Six get another life.
18:18
Four finals.
18:19
So we needed to have three winners go through and then the highest rank loser.
18:24
But they had it last year, which happened to be the blues.
18:26
So there's four New Zealand teams in the semi-finals.
18:29
Yeah, I think, you know, I would rather go that the winner gets a week off or something like that,
18:33
although people go, oh, that doesn't really work.
18:35
But that's what I'd do if you got, you know.
18:38
The one thing we saw that I actually enjoyed is what they did with the IPL.
18:43
We won and two play each other.
18:46
The winner goes through.
18:49
The loser gets another chance because three and four play each other.
18:52
The winner gets a chance against two and then that winner goes to one.
18:57
Then the guys, then the lock really gives you that advantage.
19:00
I do like that form of semi-finals.
19:04
That's what league do, don't they, Riccardo?
19:06
Don't they have Premier?
19:08
It's so complicated I can't work it out.
19:10
The concern for the Australian teams, no Australian teams in the semi-finals,
19:17
getting smashed, you know, maybe the reds were in the fight for a while,
19:21
but they're just way off the pace, aren't they?
19:26
They always put a good national team together, Riccardo.
19:29
They've always got a scattering, but yeah, I mean, I think...
19:32
Did they do that?
19:33
When was it there when the players left?
19:37
Yeah, but they're still competitive at that level.
19:40
But yeah, I think it's a real issue.
19:42
I think it's a real issue that they need to address.
19:45
And I don't know how they address it, but they've been going...
19:48
They've got the World Cup next year as well, right?
19:50
So it's been sort of four or five years
19:53
where they've been really struggling.
19:55
The Brumbies, I noticed that that was a pretty poor performance.
19:59
And he came out, you know, and apologized for their performance.
20:03
I thought the reds were competitive,
20:06
but I don't know how well the chiefs were on form, you know what I mean.
20:11
I think that Satiti thing, did you see that?
20:13
That was pretty horrendous, Victor.
20:16
What if Satiti got knocked out and was, you know, pretty unwell on the field?
20:20
And it took sort of seven or eight minutes to sort them out.
20:24
It was a pretty tough thing to see.
20:26
We'll be about five or eight minutes, only after eight minutes.
20:29
So I think the boys were a bit shocked.
20:31
I don't know if the chiefs played it their best,
20:34
but you'd have to be really, really worried, wouldn't you, if you're Australia?
20:38
Yeah, because I mean, in the beginning of the year, they started really well.
20:42
The teams were competitive.
20:43
They got some victories over the New Zealand sides.
20:46
And then at the end, they just fell away again.
20:49
And I don't understand why.
20:52
I mean, I did speak to India a few years back.
20:55
And it just feels there's not that hard age within the group.
20:59
There's one or two cars that can really drive it.
21:03
But the moment you work too hard with the players,
21:05
they're almost going to a rebellion.
21:08
They don't want to do it.
21:10
So yeah, I don't know, but they need to do something.
21:13
Because we know, Jacob, like you said, we know they've got the talent.
21:16
I mean, they've got the players.
21:18
They've got so many plays.
21:20
Yes, they do lose a lot of space, probably to league,
21:23
and to footy, and to all the other sports.
21:26
But I mean, there's so much talent in Australia.
21:28
Yeah, but I go back to this, I go back to this, Victor.
21:31
I think that, you know, after the 2003 World Cup that they had,
21:35
they put all this money in the bank, right, from the World Cup.
21:39
Was it 2003?
21:40
It was 2003, Eric, and I just don't think they're working well enough.
21:45
I think they've been arrogant about our sport,
21:48
instead of working really hard.
21:50
When you look at Australia rules,
21:53
they have done an amazing job in growing.
21:55
You know, they've done an amazing job of working in the schools.
21:58
Rugby League six years ago was in real trouble.
22:01
You know, lots of drama off the field, crowds not turning up.
22:06
And these teams have, you know, these sports have gone out there,
22:12
and they've really worked hard at the kids level.
22:15
And I just don't think rugby has done a great job on actually
22:20
promoting and growing our game.
22:22
And, you know, that's why I was pretty critical of
22:26
our current chairman of World Rugby,
22:28
because I don't understand how we got the World Rugby job
22:31
when Australia really is struggling.
22:34
And, you know, they need to get back to the basics
22:36
and start encouraging youngsters to play.
22:38
And it's probably a 10-year turnaround, right?
22:41
Because the best, you know, are going to get taken to rugby league.
22:47
And so now, a lot of these players that cry up,
22:49
they might play high school rugby,
22:50
but they're going to go to rugby league,
22:52
because there's more contracts, more money, it's more attractive.
22:55
Now, one of the arguments is, yeah,
22:58
you only play rugby league in Northern England
23:00
and Sydney and Queensland.
23:02
And that's probably true.
23:04
But it doesn't help Australian rugby at the moment,
23:06
because people are playing Aussie rules in an NRL.
23:10
Well, let's cheer things up.
23:12
We've got the nation's cups coming up
23:13
so in a few weeks' time.
23:15
Excited for the nation's cup.
23:17
Did you know what it is?
23:19
I know.
23:21
I think it's going to be interesting.
23:23
What is it?
23:25
It's North versus South.
23:27
And let's see what happened.
23:28
I mean, Southern atmosphere teams versus Northern
23:31
hemisphere teams, and we all work to the end.
23:34
I think it's the last week in November.
23:37
We'll be number one in the North versus one in South,
23:40
two in North, two in the South.
23:42
So I think it's going to be interesting.
23:44
Now that you're cross-dressing, Victor,
23:46
where do you see yourselves?
23:47
Are you Northern or Southern?
23:49
Where do you see yourselves now, mate?
23:51
Like, you see yourselves as a Northern hemisphere team now?
23:56
Evan, do we won the rugby championship last
23:59
in the Southern hemisphere?
24:01
Aren't we the Southern hemisphere champions at the moment?
24:05
And the World Champion.
24:06
So you're going to come back.
24:08
You're going to come back and play for the South.
24:12
Provincial teams are different.
24:14
Or club teams, but Springboks, Southern hemisphere.
24:17
Come on.
24:18
We work here.
24:19
We're there.
24:20
Next to you.
24:21
Tell me, tell me, um...
24:24
You look at that.
24:25
Well, tell me, um...
24:27
So tell me how this works.
24:28
So you get points.
24:29
Everyone gets points from the...
24:31
What they're trying to do is liven up the July window, are they?
24:35
Yes, I think so.
24:36
Does the rival show a count for the end of the year?
24:39
And then we all come together at the end of the year
24:41
and we play a final in Swickenham, is that it?
24:43
Yeah, there's a final at Twickenham, where I think one
24:46
South-based one or two, two.
24:49
So it's going to be a fantastic week at that.
24:52
But it's going to be difficult.
24:53
I mean, if you look at the Springbok, um...
24:57
Pictures this year.
24:58
I haven't seen a year like that ever.
25:00
This is a year before the World Cup.
25:02
So I still don't believe we'll see a special with the Springboks.
25:08
We won't see our strongest team a lot this year.
25:14
I think maybe in the rivals to her, we'll see as close as possible to it.
25:20
Are you telling me that...
25:21
Are you telling me that...
25:22
So many people are stronger side this year.
25:25
Is that what you're telling me?
25:26
I think you'll mix and match every game.
25:30
You'll have 30-35 players that he's getting ready for the World Cup
25:35
and he'll be mixing it up every week.
25:38
I don't think we'll see a lot of...
25:40
Same, same 15 going in three weeks in a row.
25:44
I don't think we'll see it.
25:46
So what would you rather win, J.K.?
25:48
The Nations Cup or the Test Series in South Africa?
25:52
All the World Cup South Africa.
25:53
Test Series in South Africa.
25:54
Well, the World Cup in each other way.
25:56
I think they hear it yourself.
25:58
Test the Test Series in South Africa.
26:00
This is a classic, mate.
26:04
This is old school touring.
26:06
This is like...
26:07
This is the oldest rivalry.
26:09
I used to get up in the morning and Brian Williams
26:15
sidestepping under the Gold Post in 1972.
26:18
This is bigger than Texas, mate.
26:20
This is bigger than Texas.
26:22
I think it's going to be amazing,
26:24
but I still think, even with that in mind,
26:28
the main focus for us, he will still be the World Cup.
26:32
And whatever he believes he needs to do
26:36
to be at his best at the World Cup, that's what he will do.
26:38
I can easily make it.
26:39
He doesn't want to give...
26:42
He doesn't want to give New Zealand confidence
26:44
and letting them be dust in South Africa.
26:47
So that will be important for us.
26:49
I disagree a bit.
26:50
I disagree a bit, but I think what he'll do is I think he'll
26:54
I think he will change his team a wee bit,
26:57
but I just think he'll target his best side against, you know,
27:03
against your blitz.
27:04
And I think the others he'll mix them up.
27:07
And one thing, like you and I have spoken about this,
27:10
well, I'm way older school than you are.
27:13
Like, changing the team wasn't something that happened in our day,
27:16
but I think some of the innovation that Russi has brought is that.
27:20
He does have that internal competition.
27:22
But the thing is, Jacob, we don't know who's our strongest team.
27:27
I mean, if you think back, we thought he picked the strongest team
27:30
for Eden Park last year, then he made eight changes to the team
27:34
and smashed you guys in Wellington.
27:37
So I mean, that's...
27:40
And that's how he looked at it.
27:41
He just, whatever he believes for the weekend,
27:45
he's the strongest team and a lot of the time,
27:48
it's not the same team that played the previous week.
27:50
Well, I don't think you're going to take one on a save,
27:53
but because I don't think he changes for the sake of changing.
27:58
He changes because he thinks someone's going to be better for that team, right?
28:04
I think he believes in everyone.
28:05
He doesn't...
28:06
He doesn't...
28:07
It's not like in the whole days where there's the 15,
28:10
this is the phase 15 best.
28:11
He really got 30 players, he believes in them all.
28:15
And he ever goes on to the field,
28:16
it's a team that need to go perform.
28:19
Can we stop talking about South Africa for a second?
28:21
JK, how do you think they've really is going to approach it?
28:24
Well, I think there's...
28:25
I think it's one of these things that really
28:30
has me pondering on the couch often.
28:32
So what is Russy done?
28:34
Russy has taken a squad of 35 and plays them all the time.
28:39
You know, what happened last year,
28:40
you know, for example, some of like Ruben Love
28:43
on the northern tour didn't get a crack until the very end in the wealth
28:48
team, right?
28:48
So we don't really know what he's like at that level
28:50
because he didn't get the opportunity.
28:52
Whereas I think what Russy's done has changed that.
28:56
So I think Dave Rene will be very, very different to Razor
29:00
and I think he will have to play a lot of the players this year
29:04
to know with a will cup in mind.
29:07
So he's going to go to South Africa,
29:08
he's going to play guys, he's going to give guys the opportunity.
29:11
So I think we'll see very, very similar selection philosophy
29:15
than we that we've seen with Russy.
29:20
And also maybe not, maybe I shouldn't say Russy,
29:22
maybe I should say, you know, Sir Graham Henry,
29:26
happy birthday Ted.
29:27
I call him the senior night, he's 80 today.
29:30
And now a selector for the for the all blacks.
29:33
So I think what he'll bring, you know,
29:35
and when you talk to guys like Wayne Smith,
29:37
they talk about those northern tours and they talk about creating
29:41
internal competition for key selection games, right?
29:45
So the key selection game was probably England.
29:48
And so you've got to have, you've got to say to the team,
29:51
look, you're going to play this game, you're going to play that game
29:53
and then the best team gets picked for England.
29:55
And I think, I think Dave will get back to things like that.
29:58
I think everyone will be really up and excited
30:00
because they know they'll have a crack.
30:03
Jake, can I ask you a question that the top point score
30:06
in the French competition is Harry Plummer?
30:10
You know, he's a guy who's just, he just,
30:13
just took Clamont to be, well, I knocked him out of the top eight,
30:17
you know, the European champions.
30:19
Guy that just gone from strength to strength.
30:20
Do you think we missed a trick with Harry Plummer?
30:24
Yeah, I think we missed a trick because we do not.
30:27
I don't think we, we're too all black focused.
30:32
So we try and retain the all blacks.
30:34
And we don't retain some of our best super players
30:37
that are on the fringe of the all blacks and mature.
30:40
Like, I always smile when I see Jamison Gibson Park, right?
30:43
Because I coach Jamison Gibson Park at the Blues.
30:46
Was he the complete player?
30:47
No, was he a bit loose?
30:49
He reminded me of a young surfie dude actually.
30:52
Yeah, he was loose.
30:53
Did he train as hard as he should?
30:55
Probably not.
30:56
Did he turn up early enough?
30:57
Probably not.
30:58
But he went to the, he went to the, you know,
31:00
went to Ireland and matured.
31:02
And now he's the world's best player and has been,
31:05
you know, one of the world's best halfbacks for last five or six years.
31:07
So some guys mature.
31:09
But someone like Plummer was one of our, you know,
31:12
it took him a couple of years to mature.
31:14
And then he matured into playing Super Rugby.
31:17
But they don't get those top contracts.
31:19
Like, he probably would have been only on 150 or 160,000 dollars
31:24
New Zealand in Super Rugby.
31:27
And he would have been offered sort of 350 from Clemore.
31:30
So that's part of our problem.
31:31
We've got to start targeting some of these franchise guys
31:35
and keep them because they do mature later.
31:38
Yeah, or is he someone that should be playing into National Rugby?
31:42
But we're not going to pick him from overseas
31:44
because we didn't see him as a contract guy.
31:50
That's why we couldn't keep him.
31:51
So what happens is they look at the all black contracts
31:54
and they go, who can we keep?
31:56
And who do we have to let go?
31:58
And Plummer's one of those.
31:59
Like the Blues, like, I think there's 20 players
32:03
leaving Super Rugby this year.
32:04
You know, we don't want to lose these players
32:06
but we don't have enough money.
32:08
And that's the problem.
32:09
So some are like, Plummer probably should have been on an
32:12
all black contract because he's on the fringe
32:17
and getting better.
32:18
But they can't afford to keep them
32:19
because it's just like, okay, we'd love to, but we can't.
32:23
Right.
32:24
And then obviously, as the Japan Line Act coach,
32:28
you'll be watching the Final Closely in Japan, Victor?
32:32
I actually haven't been.
32:34
Actually, to visit the site,
32:37
so I need to get a lot of footage this week
32:39
going into training camp.
32:41
I think next week or the week after.
32:43
So I'll catch up on a lot of things.
32:46
We don't get it every year in South Africa.
32:48
So I'll have to go into
32:52
my computer, work through the games,
32:55
but I'll do it in the next week or two.
32:58
I think they've been one.
33:00
Dave Rene won with Corbe and Anton Lennon Brown.
33:04
Did they play in the final?
33:06
I don't know. I didn't see that.
33:08
I only saw the celebrations over and there watched the game either.
33:12
You're my rugby experts.
33:13
One's waiting for a pigeon to bring in some film
33:17
and the other one just wants the Instagram feed
33:20
of the piss up in the club and the dressing room.
33:23
Yeah.
33:24
You're very disappointing, both.
33:26
True. Well, Retalic.
33:28
Retalic and yeah, well, same here.
33:30
I'm in Italy at the moment and I don't get,
33:32
I don't get a lot of rugby on Sky over here unfortunately.
33:36
All right, gentlemen, now this is the end of this show,
33:38
but we're going to do a special on Spotify and Apple
33:42
and for the podcast.
33:44
I'm going to talk to you about your
33:45
the greatest game you've ever played.
33:48
So if you want to listen to that,
33:50
and that JK might have been Dillacell versus
33:54
now they're not a rascal grammar,
33:56
whatever we played in the,
33:58
but I'm going to talk to you about the
33:59
most into Africa.
34:01
Yeah, move on.
34:02
If the greatest game we ever played,
34:04
you ever played.
34:05
So we're going to talk about that.
34:06
That's a bonus episode on,
34:08
on audio podcasts.
34:09
So wherever you get your audio podcast, check it out.
34:13
Looking forward to seeing who comes out on top,
34:15
the Blues or the Bulls over the next couple of weeks.
34:18
And that's another episode.
34:20
All the Blues Anthemples.
34:21
Just think about that.
34:23
Yeah, yeah, then you're both being separable.
34:26
All right, another episode of rugby rivals.
34:29
Good night.
34:30
Thanks for listening.