Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Kim and Tucker Garrett - When Your Spouse Leaves the Church: How to Stay Together Through a Faith Crisis + Therapy in Navigating Faith Transition + Communication and Respect in Marriage + Differing Beliefs
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (00:28) All right, I have Kim and Tucker Garrett here with me tonight and they're going to share their beautiful story of how they have transitioned from a same faith marriage to a mixed faith marriage. And it is an awesome story. So we are honored to have them with us tonight. How are you guys feeling about sharing Kim Garrett (00:42) Yes. great. Yeah, it's fine. It's honestly, it makes me a little anxious, but that's okay. Yeah, I'm very comfortable with it. So I talk a lot about it with other people, so. And I do not. Well, that's. Brynne Erickson (01:03) Well, well everyone is about to hear it and benefit from it. So thank you for your, yes. Thank you for your vulnerability and willingness even with the feelings of discomfort. That's awesome. Means growth, right? That's what they say. So let's put it to the test. Okay, Tucker, you distance yourself from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in about 2019. What was your relationship with the church like up to that point? Kim Garrett (01:07) Only in first one. same. Mm-hmm. Until then, was the entire, it was the center of my entire universe. It defined everything around me and everything I thought about anything I could see. I mean, I tried very hard to be the the quote unquote perfect member of the church. Like, you know, doing my home teaching, going to almost all my meetings, you know, like ⁓ never missing church, not going out to eat on Sundays like the Brynne Erickson (01:58) Yeah. Kim Garrett (02:04) everything about it, like I was the guy who like, I was scared to not be in my garments. Like I thought that it was like so important that if I wasn't wearing them, like that would be a problem. And yeah, it was like, ⁓ looking back on it, it was a combination of like deep fervent faith. And like, honestly, like now looking back, the garment piece, for example, it's like, and a mix of superstition. that like stemmed out of that. But I like literally read my scriptures every single night, like never missed. ⁓ Yeah, it was everything. Brynne Erickson (02:47) And Kim, what about what was your upbringing like? Kim Garrett (02:52) Yeah. So I grew up in a very strong, you know, member home, but I definitely did not have that same Tucker very much was like striving for perfection, you know, like whether or not I think he would admit it. that's no, I definitely like it was that was known to me. Right. He was like, he felt bad if he wasn't perfect all the time. And I did not feel that way. I just was felt very like I don't want to use the word nuanced because I feel like that maybe didn't describe it, but I was a lot more like chill, like, yeah, Jesus loves us all. We're all just doing our best. You know, I still, I loved young women's. went to all my activities cause that's where my best friends were. And, ⁓ I really loved the church and it was a big part of my life, but it didn't, I don't feel like it defined me in the same way. I'm a lot, I've always been a lot more lax about it than. Tucker was like, even when we got married, he was the one that made sure we read scriptures every night and prayed every night where I only did that when I felt like it, you know, weren't studying, preach my gospel just for fun as a mom. Some people do. Brynne Erickson (04:05) Who does that? My dad probably does. There are plenty of people that do. Yes, they're so awesome. So I'm curious though, because obviously we all lived the same religion. We probably watched general conference on the same Sundays and whatnot. So why do you think you two had such different experiences of internalizing the same messaging? What are your thoughts on that? Kim Garrett (04:31) That's a good question. And it is something we talk about a lot. We'll joke about how like we, even though like you say, growing up in the same religion, we joke about how we grew up in different churches. Like the, I think it's a lot of factors. One would be like our home structure, like my family, like we both come from very faithful, like ideal LDS parents, but they just apply things in different ways. And I think. part of it has to do with our individual personalities. And I kind of joke about how you can tell when someone was raised in a McConkey religion or a Hinckley religion. Even though they're technically the same, they're vastly different. ⁓ like, yeah, I mean, McConkey's the old. Brynne Erickson (05:03) Yeah. Can you expound on that a little bit? What do you mean by that? Kim Garrett (05:25) Testament and Hinkley's the New Testament. That's like the easy way to say it. I, ⁓ like, I mean, yeah, I was reading books all the time, like things written by, ⁓ general authorities and, know, like reading Talmage constantly. and I think that the people who, ⁓ internalize those books from older general authorities are going to Brynne Erickson (05:28) Hmm. Okay. Kim Garrett (05:53) look at the world through a different lens than those who don't. And that's not to say one's better than the other. I think, though, that there was a very old school, there's one way to do things mentality that you get from older general authorities and their books. Brynne Erickson (05:59) Yeah. Yeah, that's valid. Thank you. That's great perspective. What do you think, Kim? Kim Garrett (06:16) I mean, I feel like my family, like my dad, my parents really, their whole thing was kindness. Like, are you being kind? Are you being Christ-like? You know, and so I felt like there was a lot less, ⁓ push on like, are you doing all these things? It was like, are you a good friend? Are you, you know, are you doing your best at school, know, things like that. So I always just kind of felt like my spirituality was not based on. sinning or not sinning or this or that. it just was, I don't know. It just was different. I can't really describe it, but it just felt maybe lighter. Like it was more chill. I don't know. We didn't do, we weren't. Yes. Right. Right. Right. And Tipper definitely had that, that feeling. And I never once had this thought of like, I'm going to hell if I did something, you know, it was always like, Brynne Erickson (07:05) Not like a do or die or do or doomed kind of mentality. Yeah. Kim Garrett (07:20) I can repent, that's why I have a savior. know, like it just felt a lot less scary, I guess, and still feels that way for me. Brynne Erickson (07:29) Okay, awesome. So what was it that particularly launched your faith journey? Was there a pivotal moment? What was that for you? Kim Garrett (07:39) Yeah, I mean, like anybody else, you there's the ⁓ the analogy of having, you know, you put items on your shelf and it breaks eventually. And so there are always things that confused me or I would feel cognitive dissonance about, but I was able to shrug it off and ⁓ that would come and go. And some things might weigh heavier than others. But for me, I remember really the thing that kind of pushed me off was, I think it was like 2019 ⁓ in Come Follow Me, they made a subtle change that was like, it was announced through like the newspapers in Utah. It wasn't even announced through the church that, you know, the teaching about where dark skin came from, you know, there was a quote in there from a general authority in the published Preach My Gospel about. dark skin being a curse and you know, like it was just saying what the Book of Mormon says. And that's a place where I feel like it says it very plainly. And then people will say like, well, that's not what it means. It's like, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, don't tell me it's not a duck. And it bothered me that the church didn't make this huge change ⁓ publicly that it was like through the Utah newspapers. And then it just kind of spread. ⁓ But it bothered me even more, even though I like the change better than the teaching that dark skin is a curse. ⁓ I like not teaching that idea. But even though I much prefer that messaging, it bothered me that they changed it because you have a hundred years of precedence of teaching this idea. It's published in the important document that is the keystone of the religion. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (09:12) for sure. Kim Garrett (09:28) to me it was like, well, if they're wrong about that, or if they can just change that because it's no longer culturally acceptable, what else are they wrong about? And it helped me to look closer at like, right, if we look at like polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, like ⁓ the relationship with the LGBTQ community, like all these big shifts in the church always come after big social pushes instead of leading the way on social change. Brynne Erickson (09:38) Hmm. Kim Garrett (09:58) ⁓ that change was very much a like, how many times can they be wrong before I just admit to myself that they're wrong? Brynne Erickson (10:08) So good thoughts. Kim, anything you want to add? Kim Garrett (10:11) ⁓ I mean, Tucker and I have had these conversations lots of times and you know, when all of this first started, was very like ⁓ almost like Tucker, you weren't accusing me, but the conversations were very heated and it was like, well, I just don't see it that same way or it doesn't bother me in that same way. you know, Tucker has a lot of... really strong feelings about, know, some of those things that he listed and, ⁓ which is fine. Like it's okay. But those conversations at first were very difficult to have because I had different feelings. ⁓ and some of them was that I don't understand it and it doesn't not understanding it didn't outweigh the things that I felt like I did believe in. so. Like it was difficult for us to have those conversations, especially where there was a lot of passion and hurt feelings and things on Tucker's side, which is understandable, right? And so for me, was, ⁓ that was probably the biggest thing was how do we navigate these conversations that feel very passionate and, you know, and one. Brynne Erickson (11:09) Yeah. Kim Garrett (11:24) one side is hurt feelings and on my side is, you know, something that's sacred to me and important to me. And so it was, that was, that was hard. Yeah. That's actually what I was going to call out. Um, based on what you were saying is there, there was a point where, I mean, I wasn't talking to anybody, but Kim about this. Like it was me and Kim and I was, I had to bear it all. And, uh, there was a time where I was, you know, just getting these feelings out and I was. Brynne Erickson (11:30) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kim Garrett (11:52) angry and hurt and frustrated and had very big emotions and Kim was like, you have to stop. Like you need to remember that like you can feel differently about this stuff at this point, but like this is still sacred and important to me. And the way you're talking about it doesn't take into consideration that this is sacred to me and it matters to me. And I still care about it in a different way than you do. That was, I was glad she said that because like, was angry, I wasn't angry at Kim. I was angry at the church and like, I can't go down, like the church isn't an entity. I can't go to the church office building and like grab it by the collar and like, what are you doing? You know, like there's no church I can talk to. So Kim got to be the face of my frustration and had to deal with that. Yeah. And handled it well. And I felt like that was a big moment of, you know, Brynne Erickson (12:40) Mm-hmm. Kim Garrett (12:50) setting boundaries of how we were going to communicate about it. felt like that was a really big deal for us. And I think we still carry that on. Like we can still have conversations about the church or spiritual things and leave the conversation feeling differently from each other, but respecting each other's beliefs and allowing each other to believe what we believe. Instead of convincing each other. Yeah. The other day, like two days ago, Brynne Erickson (13:13) That's a good word, allowing. Kim Garrett (13:18) we were getting ready, like we're in our bathroom, like brushing teeth and doing hair or whatever it is. like, like we had what would have been an extremely uncomfortable conversation about religious beliefs, like just in the bathroom, getting ready in the morning. And it was like, like, I actually think this thing is completely false and bubble, you know, like it wasn't angry, but like, we were just both stating like, I believe this. And I think this is, you know, not that way. And anyway, like, But it was like we were talking about what we're going to have for dinner. Like it was just like, it wasn't emotional. It was just like, this is how I feel about this. Like, yeah, I feel differently about that. Right. Respect. Brynne Erickson (13:56) How have you gotten to a point where it is so much easier than it was in the beginning? Do you think? Kim Garrett (14:03) A lot of therapy. I think that's like for both of us, like, and I think the therapy is partially like a big part of it is me being able to even think about the church without it sending me into like a depressive spiral, but also learning how to navigate like. Brynne Erickson (14:05) Okay. Kim Garrett (14:27) accepting those differences and appreciating that someone else's experience is going to be different, even if you want it to be the same or whatever. Like, yeah, we both attend a therapy and yeah, I've talked a lot. No, I was just going to say like, we, we both go to therapy individually and we still do and have since that time. And I think that's been good because there's been, you know, conversations that I've been able to work through with a therapist before I even brought it up to Tucker, you know, like. Where I can talk to a therapist and say, Hey, I'm stressed about this. When it comes to talking to Tucker about, know, the spiritual or religious thing or like the temple or whatever. And like my therapist has been able to like walk me through why I'm feeling nervous or how it might go. And then give me advice for how I can have the conversation. And then I have it with Tucker and it always goes better than you assume it will. Right. And, ⁓ I think there's, there's, yeah, the therapy I think is really important. And just the. The foundation and groundwork of our honest and respectful communication. think we both are, we try really hard to assume the best of each other. Like, so if someone says something not perfectly, instead of getting like up in your feelings about that, you can, you can express, Hey, when you said that, that really made me feel like unheard or misunderstood. And, you know, I think it's important to own our own feelings, but continue to talk about it. Like I'm allowed to be sad that Tucker doesn't go to church with me anymore. I'm allowed to be sad. I don't have to hide that from Tucker and, but Tucker doesn't have to go to church so that I won't be sad. Right? Right. Like we're allowed to have these dueling emotions and have a little bit of responsibility for each other's emotions. But at the end of the day, we don't have to change what we're doing because of each other's emotions. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (16:08) Fix it. Yeah. Kim Garrett (16:24) I, that's a really good clarification. Cause that was like, when we uncover that bit of like, you're allowed to make your choices and I'm allowed to be sad about it, but that doesn't mean that you have to change your choices. was like, that idea, I was about to go, and then I heard fireworks in the background. Anyway, ⁓ that idea like blew my mind. was like, that had never crossed my mind before. It was. Brynne Erickson (16:42) Ha Kim Garrett (16:53) Shocking to me is like, that that's true. Yeah, we can do things that the other person's not stoked about and that can be okay, right? And I think we do that a lot like and we talk about it like I Mentioned to Tucker when I get sad, know not going to the temple with him anymore And he talks about how he's sad that he feels like his life is still surrounded by the church, you know, like we are Allowed to voice that to each other and I think that helps us stay vulnerable with each other and respect each other and be honest with each other because ⁓ if Tucker was pretending that everything was fine, then I wouldn't know how I can support him or help him and the other way around too. Brynne Erickson (17:29) Yeah. Yeah, you guys said a couple of things I really loved. One, the honesty piece. Like the other person can't read your mind. We think, I think too often we assume that our partner should know. Like they should know, they should understand. Like, and we don't, we're not mind readers. And then the second thing, ⁓ shoot. I can't remember it. Maybe that was the only thing I needed to say. So being honest, that's definitely. Kim Garrett (17:53) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (18:04) definitely where it's at and allowing. That's awesome. You guys have done some hard work. When did you start therapy? Kim Garrett (18:07) Yeah. It was, yeah. But, um, I think I started in 2022, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I started therapy pretty soon after my faith started transitioning because it got pretty scary for a while there and was not okay. I really wasn't. And fortunately I had several people around me who were. ⁓ knowledgeable enough and brave enough to call out of like, Hey, like you're saying some things that are kind of concerning or noticing this behavior in you. That's a little concerning. Like you should seek help. And I, like, I grew up in a world, ⁓ where you just grit your teeth and get through it. Like you, you know, deal with it. You have a problem, like too bad, suck it up and move on. And, ⁓ there, there's a time and place for that. But there's also a huge time and place for like your brain chemicals are off or you've experienced trauma and like gritting your teeth isn't going to help with those. Right. And you were trying like at the time Tucker was reading book after book after book and like you were kind of obsessed with this idea of finding truth. Like he was like, I need to find the truth. Like I need to find what is the truth. And his therapist at the time, it's not who he sees now, but it was somebody else at the time. Was like, these books are going to kill you. Like you are obsessed with this, this right answer, this truth, and you're never going to find it. You need to stop reading the books you need to. And that was like a big deal to Tucker. Like he had a lot of ways in his life at the time that he was trying to be perfect. And therapist was like, I challenge you to like, bring that down and not be perfect and let things just be, you know, and that took a lot of. Brynne Erickson (20:04) Yeah. Kim Garrett (20:05) ⁓ mindfulness and I think you still work on it at times. ⁓ but that was a big breakthrough in your therapy. think of the therapist saying like, Hey, this is killing you. This search for truth. I will say though, like honestly, one of my proudest moments was when, when he's like, you know, I see a lot of people with like religious drama in this, this situation. And he's like, I have never. seen anyone who's more obsessed with finding the truth than you are. And I was like, I don't think you meant that as a compliment, but I definitely took it. I going to say that's not a compliment. I should have a trophy for this. That's a mental health disorder. Most obsessed with finding the truth. I'm so proud of that. Brynne Erickson (20:50) That's amazing and I actually want to come back to that but before I do, ⁓ what advice would you give to someone who's resistant to therapy? Kim Garrett (21:01) over yourself. ⁓ I mean, it's hard because ⁓ it's hard because there are a lot of things we don't even want to admit to ourselves and so it can be scary to want to admit it to another person and you know there are a lot of reasons someone might not go to therapy. They might not see the value in it. They might not like understand it and I didn't understand how it was going to help me and it's also hard because like it's Hard work, like there are lots of times you leave therapy and you're like, I feel worse than I did an hour ago because I've talked about all these hard things, but it's, ⁓ it's like diet and exercise where like, if you're consistent with it, you will see progress. If you're not, you won't, and you just have to trust the process. Yeah. It's a long-term, like the results are long-term for the most part. Like there were a few things and that were, that helped here now, but long-term is where it's like. trying to get you out of this flight or a fight or flight spots. Yeah. ⁓ the other thing too, as I was going to say, the first therapist Tucker saw was terrible. It, he was like defending the church and almost fighting back against Tucker. And as Tucker tried to speak his truth and what he was struggling with, the therapist was not a good fit. And that actually caused. Brynne Erickson (22:04) flight. Kim Garrett (22:26) More problems. More problems. And we were like, ⁓ no, therapy is bad. Like this is scary. And we ended up finding, you know, so definitely ask around. think every therapist we've had, it's been because it's been a recommendation from somebody else. ⁓ talk to the people around you, someone that you feel comfortable with, ⁓ and find someone with a good recommendation and don't be afraid to say, Hey, this person's not for me. And you'll know right away if it's a good fit or not. And like, if, if it doesn't feel like a great fit from the Brynne Erickson (22:28) Okay. Kim Garrett (22:56) like from the beginning, find someone else. And like I've seen a couple different therapists now and, ⁓ the last, so I've seen three total first one, not great. ⁓ then the next one was great and he was super helpful. And the therapist I'm seeing now is also great. And it was legitimately just like, I want a different perspective. Like there was nothing wrong with the one I was seeing, but we had, you know, kind of started to talk in circles to a point. And I was like, you know, like, I have no problems with this therapist, but maybe someone else might be able to help me see things a different way. And it's been awesome. And I've seen my same therapist for three years. So I, I love her and hope I never have to see anyone else because I think so. Brynne Erickson (23:40) It's awesome. I know I've decided that I need therapy the way I need a gym membership. Kim Garrett (23:47) Mm-hmm. Yep. Brynne Erickson (23:48) Like I need to work on my mental wellbeing as much as I do my physical wellbeing. So yeah. Kim Garrett (23:52) Yeah. 100%. Yep. It all kind of goes together. mean, literally my therapist, like one of my goals is to go to the gym. And so she'll ask me, did you go to the gym? And I'm like, I did. And she's like, good job. And I'm like, thank you. Brynne Erickson (24:06) Yeah, they're like an accountability coach. It's kind of cool. It's nice. Kim Garrett (24:08) Yeah, they can help with lots of different things. Brynne Erickson (24:13) They really can. It's awesome. So we all testify to therapy. It's great stuff. Let's go back to, ⁓ truth. Cause this is something I have thought a lot about. What have you concluded about truth Tucker? Kim Garrett (24:16) Mm-hmm. ⁓ ⁓ that's a good question. Brynne Erickson (24:30) if you've reached a conclusion or where are you with truth? Maybe that's a lighter question. Kim Garrett (24:36) Um, I've come to a point where I am comfortable and happy with saying, don't know. Uh, I definitely grew up having all the answers and it's funny cause the church teaches this like interesting perspective where, you know, they talk about like, um, you know, those who are, uh, learned are prideful because they think they know more or whatever. And it's like, Oh, like, don't be, don't be so proud that you know more than God. And it's like, well, what's more proud. admitting you don't know something or claiming you know everything. Like claiming you have all the answers is way more prideful than saying like, I don't think this is right. Um, and that was like something I had to realize. I was like, Oh, this isn't prideful. This is the opposite. Um, and so like, there are things I've gotten to the point where, I mean, I definitely trust experts. There are people who know things and have experienced things that I have not and will never experience and I should trust them. Um, but I think credentials matter. And it's like, there are things that we can't know, and there are things that we can't prove, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not true, but I am extremely wary of someone claiming to have special information that I can't have access to. And that's different than classified information that somebody else could verify. know, like there's places that people can verify things, and there are places... where someone can say whatever they want and there's no way of knowing. Does that make sense? ⁓ Brynne Erickson (26:11) Yeah, cause that's what faith is essentially. Kim Garrett (26:15) Yeah, yeah. And it's not like I can't accept having, know, we all experience various levels of faith in different things, but. it's a huge red flag for me if someone's trying to get me to act in a certain way based on that. Brynne Erickson (26:38) Okay, do you want to have anything you want to add to that Kim? Do you have thoughts? Kim Garrett (26:44) I mean, I do. just, I don't know. Again, this goes back to how I was raised and kind of where I'm at now. I'm just a lot more chill about it. And Tucker, you know, like for me, it's just like, I'm very comfortable saying I don't know things. I've changed things that I believe in to now feeling like I don't necessarily believe in it. I, my testimony has, you know, gone in all sorts of ways. I once talked to a stake president who we were, ⁓ Brynne Erickson (26:47) You Kim Garrett (27:14) Tucker and I both talked to him a lot when Tucker was going through his ⁓ initial crisis and he was really supportive and awesome. We built a good relationship with him and he asked me once where my testimony was and I kind of started crying and I was like, I don't know. I feel like the things I thought I knew, I don't know and all this stuff. And he was like, you've trimmed your branches and grown your roots, you know? And I've just always really appreciated that. And so for me, like, I just don't. Brynne Erickson (27:20) Yeah. you Kim Garrett (27:44) It's just a lot more like fluid and I'm like, okay, with the things that I know and I don't know. And I just, I'm, don't know. I'm just a lot more chill about it. Maybe than Tucker's. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you always have been, and I think it's a matter of like the pendulum is going to swing. if your pendulum was only swinging this far, it continues. But if your pendulum was like way over there, it's going to all the way the other way. Right. Brynne Erickson (28:10) Now I keep hearing people using that analogy. I heard that analogy years ago. My aunt brought it up. She's like, it's natural for humanity to swing from one to the other. And then we gradually get down to the middle. And I was like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. Awesome. Okay. So how have you guys, other than therapy, is there any other ways that you've managed to stay together in your marriage, even with these differing beliefs? Kim Garrett (28:22) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hmm. Brynne Erickson (28:41) honesty, therapy, anything else. Kim Garrett (28:44) I will say, like, you know, my counselor, my therapist who I've talked to a lot through all of this, she's just, because we've been through a lot in our marriage. mean, on top of a faith journey, ⁓ or two different religions in our home, ⁓ our son has special needs, he's had major medical things, we've moved lots of times, we've just had... A lot of things in our life that could cause our marriage to crumble. And my therapist once pointed that out. was like, Kim, I see one of these things and I worry about a marriage and the things that you guys have dealt with, you know, is, the, where your marriage is and how strong you guys communicate. She's like, that is what's saving your marriage. So really just that communication. I definitely, and like, this kind of goes into that, but like I am a sharer. Brynne Erickson (29:11) Yeah. Kim Garrett (29:36) I'm someone who's going to share my story and talk about it. And, ⁓ so I've been talking about this with my friends for a long time. They know about Tucker. They know about where he's at. And, ⁓ but that's something that I told Tucker. We talked about it and I was like, Hey, I don't want to feel alone in this. I'm going to talk to my friends. Is that okay? And you were like, yes, want you to talk to you. I didn't want you to be alone in it. I, yeah. I was very comfortable and okay with that. And I think that you'd mentioned intentions earlier where like, I never, we both said things that could be taken very offensively by the other person or assuming certain intents. it's always like, I know you would never set out to do something to make me feel bad or whatever. We know we're on the same team. Yeah. Yeah. The default assumption is just always like, we're on the same team. What you said just pissed me off. Let's talk about that. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (30:43) Because I love you, we're going to talk about this hard thing. Kim Garrett (30:45) Well, yeah, we've just, we've always been really good about communicating and disagreeing. Like we will vote differently on, you know, different aspects or candidates or whatever, and we'll talk about it. It's like, cool. Well, I guess I'm about to cancel out your vote, but that's okay. Cause that's how this works. Like, and that doesn't bother me at all. mean, there are people who like, they can't handle that idea of like, I can't believe my spouse would vote on aviators. it's like, well, she thinks about that thing a little bit differently than I do. And that's good. Right. Right. We both have. Brynne Erickson (30:58) you Kim Garrett (31:14) lived a different life and so I feel like it makes sense that we're gonna see things differently. Yeah. Yeah, I like that we can disagree on things. I've always enjoyed like debate and things and if you can have a healthy disagreement with someone it's so like that's how humanity grows and that's how the individual grows. It's how you get to know each other too. and like you need different perspectives to understand things better. Brynne Erickson (31:45) That's awesome, you guys. So Tucker, I'm curious, how have you gotten to a point where you're not ashamed of Kim talking to her friends about where you're at? Kim Garrett (31:56) Yeah, I actually, I was always okay with that. Like I personally haven't talked to a lot of people about it. ⁓ it's one of those things that it's like, if I could sit down and talk to the president of the church, like, let's do it, please. I would love that. You know, like I'm not afraid to talk to people about it, but I don't, I, I just try to avoid the social ramifications, I guess. And not even that people are going to like cast me out or anything. don't know. Like it's just. Things change, like in the church, it's such a huge part of people's lives and I get it, like I've been there, but people treat you differently if they know that you think about the church differently than they do. Like that is, there's a long record of that happening and I see why that happens. People don't do it on purpose, ⁓ but. I mean, yeah, I just avoid the conversation altogether if I can. But if someone asks, I'm happy to talk about it. But it's, I guess it's more a matter of if they're a safe person to talk to about it. Like, if they're going to try and convince me of something, let's not have that conversation. That's not going to be fun for either of us. ⁓ But if you are curious about it and would like to understand it, I'd love to talk about it. Yeah, I think that's the big difference. I mean, at the beginning of all this, Tucker was very mentally fragile. about the conversation and would have major mental breakdowns and spirals and it was really really difficult. every Sunday ended up with me depressed on the bed hating my existence. Right, thinking he was damned like it was really really bad and so I think you're to the point now where you can have conversations a little bit more often but there was a point where he couldn't even really talk about it with somebody who wasn't like very sensitive to what he was feeling. I couldn't even like if general conference was on like it wasn't healthy for me to be in the home like I just I was so ⁓ troubled by my relationship with my spirituality that yeah I was ⁓ fragile is a good word for it. Yeah. Another plug for therapy. And for me too, like, because I had to support Tucker in that. And so for me to go to therapy was a really big deal during that time too, because I could go and talk to my therapist about, Hey, I had to support Tucker for two hours while he had a mental breakdown in our bed and was not okay. You know, like that was. And who's supporting you. Brynne Erickson (34:08) Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Kim Garrett (34:34) Right. So like, so that felt, that could feel really lonely to me. Right. And so it was good that I also went to therapy too. ⁓ so I mean, my therapist is the one that suggested that I talked to Tucker about not coming to church anymore. Cause at the time Tucker was coming to church to support me. ⁓ cause I, we have kids and so he was trying to, you know, not cause problems to our family and you know, that dynamic. And, ⁓ every Sunday he would come home and have a breakdown and it would cause hours. Brynne Erickson (34:35) Yeah. Kim Garrett (35:04) It would pretty much ruin the rest of the day because of the mental... problems that it caused Tucker. And my therapist finally was like, church is going to kill your husband. Like you need to suggest. And we worked on that for probably a good month before I even talked to Tucker about it. So that was one of those conversations that she helped me work out my feelings through. I mean, it wasn't perfect even when I came to Tucker, but I'm the one that told him, Hey, I appreciate that you were trying to support me. This is obviously harming you. So let's. have you stop. And in my mind at the time, it was like, and come back eventually, right? But it's been a lot of years and he hasn't, you know, you do come sometimes like if I'm speaking or there's like some event, but you've worked on in therapy to be able to support me in that way, you know. Brynne Erickson (35:59) That's awesome. So as far as with the kids, how do you guys make decisions on raising your children? Kim Garrett (36:10) We're lucky in that they're still young. ⁓ so a lot of that's pretty easy to navigate at this point. It's like they like primary, they see their friends there. They come, they bring home coloring pages that annoy me and then that's it. You know, like it's yeah. And so, mean, there is still like, you know, when our oldest, ⁓ was baptized, like that was a big, that one was like weeks of therapy. Brynne Erickson (36:30) Huh. Kim Garrett (36:39) leading up to that. And we talked about it for a full year in advance. Yeah. And again, it's where he has a disability that also changed that dynamic itself quite a bit. Cause I was like, I don't want, like if it were up to me again, that's like one of those places I have strong feelings. think where it took me until my thirties to felt like I learned more about the church to have like a informed consent about my relationship with the church. Brynne Erickson (37:07) Mm-hmm. Your membership. Mm-hmm. Kim Garrett (37:10) Yeah, was like, eight's way too young. He still believes in the Tooth Fairy. So like, don't tell me he understands this. ⁓ Who's gonna say, Tucker, edit this out? What eight year old is listening to this? They need a different life. ⁓ But like, I will talk about. yeah, I what that one came. Yeah, what that came down to was like, I didn't want Brynne Erickson (37:17) Don't blow that secret. baptism. Kim Garrett (37:38) him to feel left out of anything. Like he was seeing his friends being baptized, they were talking about it. That's all they talk about for that year. Brynne Erickson (37:47) Yeah. Kim Garrett (37:49) Again, I feel like it's part of my point, but like, it's, like I didn't want him to be the one kid who's not, you know? And so that was a lot of conversation between me and my therapist and then me and Kim. And you were like, you were more on board with the idea than I was. felt like of- To not do it? Well, no, to just a shift in perspective of like, look at it as more of like a cultural right instead of a spiritual event. You know, it was like, yeah. So he's in this culture. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (37:56) you Gotcha. Kim Garrett (38:19) It was like I was, it was like a girl, Norman in that moment, you know? Yeah. As, as the other children get older, I think that may be a little bit trickier. Um, but when it comes to, you know, specifics, I hope that the way we talk about it is healthy and that like, we'll say like, you know, they're, this is what mom believes about this thing. You know, mom believes A, B and C happens or like. Brynne Erickson (38:21) tradition. Kim Garrett (38:45) You know, some other people believe this happens and I'm hoping that if we give our kids like, this is what some people believe and then ask them like, what do you think instead of informing them, this is what you believe. ⁓ cause that's really not a healthy way to have your, ⁓ life view, your worldview formed. Like you think this, like, well, what if I don't think that no one ever asked me. Brynne Erickson (39:10) It doesn't allow you to make decisions based upon your agency. Kim Garrett (39:14) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (39:15) So that's awesome. Are there any special experiences or insights that you've gained that you want to leave with Kim Garrett (39:23) I like I've talked a lot. have some, but you can, I'm talking a lot. I would just say for me, like, as the spouse who still believes in, you know, the church's teachings, obviously the like idea of like eternal families and what does that look like? Like that was a really difficult concept to kind of figure out for me on my end. And, I did have a really ⁓ spiritual experience that I've felt very called to share with people, ⁓ where ⁓ I remember just feeling very overwhelmed. It was probably four months. It was like still new, but it wasn't like super new. was like, you know, and just feeling very much like this is, this is it. Like I'm never going to get out of this darkness. Like I our family's ruined, like what are we going to do? You know, it just felt very heavy and dark ⁓ and exhausting, you know, and I just felt really burdened with worry and everything. And ⁓ I got on my knees and prayed, which is not something, again, I'm very chill. I don't do that very often. I pray in my car. I pray while I'm doing things, you know, but like I got on my knees and I prayed and I just cried. Brynne Erickson (40:45) Yeah. Kim Garrett (40:52) And I just sobbed and I was like, what, what am I supposed to do? How do I, you know, how do I fix Tucker? How do I, know, this or that, like all these different things where I was saying and as clear as day, I was told, do you trust that I am God? And ⁓ for me, that was just, you know, in my belief in God, in my belief in an atonement, I felt immediate. peace and comfort in knowing that I don't need to worry. God is powerful enough to save my family. God is powerful enough to, ⁓ you know, he knows because of our Savior's atonement, I believe that he knows Tucker and knows everything he's been through and knows, you know, his mental health struggles or, ⁓ and if that ends up being Brynne Erickson (41:31) Absolutely. Kim Garrett (41:50) how it works in the end, I'm not worried about him. Like, I have come to feel peace that I don't need to worry about Tucker's salvation. He's going to be okay. My family's gonna be okay. ⁓ If heaven is a happy place, Tucker will be a part of that. And so I'm just, I have, it's not always perfect. I mean, I'm still worried at times or things creep in or whatever, but. Just trusting that God's power is well beyond what I can even know or comprehend. It just, there's no point in wasting my life worrying about it. And ⁓ I heard once that you can't fully love someone you're trying to change. And so for me, it's, I can just love him. I can love, I can love anybody, no matter who they are, no matter what they're doing. I just show them love and give them the respect to do what they. Brynne Erickson (42:30) Yes. Kim Garrett (42:48) feel like is best for their life because they know themselves and they know their situation and it's not up to me to fix or change or be in charge of. Brynne Erickson (43:00) Thanks, Kim. What else, Tucker? Kim Garrett (43:02) Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, I've learned through this that ⁓ if myself or I'm going to assume of other people as well, if we are judging somebody, it probably means we haven't experienced what they're dealing with. Judgment is a sign of ignorance. ⁓ mean, sometimes you go through things and you judge people because you're like, I've been through that, it's not that bad. But there's also the like... Brynne Erickson (43:34) Yeah. Kim Garrett (43:37) We haven't been through what they've been through because like they have an entire different lives and then yeah, there are different circumstances that affect things and yeah, like, ⁓ you know, it's really easy to tell in church when people make comments about people who have shifted their religious views. It's so easy to tell who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. It's like, right, well, you've never come close to experiencing this or you would never say it that way or you know, whatever. ⁓ Brynne Erickson (43:41) Yeah, I'm not you. Kim Garrett (44:05) Yeah, like you just have no clue. It's easy to say, they just wanted to sin. It's like, well, no, they, they really wanted it to be true is what they actually wanted. And they were really bummed when they felt otherwise. Like, ⁓ and so it's the same, you know, it's like, we're judgmental about someone's. Whatever it is, I won't say any specifics because that could be harsh, but like, it just means that you don't know what it's like. so I've tried to be less judgmental because I used to judge people really harshly because I was so. Brynne Erickson (44:15) Yep. Yep. Kim Garrett (44:35) fervent and confident in my beliefs and it's like, man, I like, I know I've said things to and about people that were just not even close to accurate because how I thought about my religious beliefs. So yeah, if you're judging someone, it probably just means you don't know. Brynne Erickson (44:59) How can we get to know then? Kim Garrett (45:02) Ask them. And yeah, like if we can have better curious conversations. ⁓ I read this really cool book that was about understanding people with different, was more of like a, it was a political book, but like understanding people with different political views. And it was saying like, when it comes down to it, most of us have the same goals about things, know, like, people who want. safety, some people think not having guns is a way to stay safe and some people think having guns is the way to stay safe. It's like two sides of an argument actually have the same goal in mind, they just approach it differently. ⁓ And so like, if we can find that with people like, when it comes down to it, I think the vast majority of us just want the world to be better. And we just have different ways of how we're trying to do that. Brynne Erickson (45:56) really powerful. There's an underlying value that we're all striving to achieve. Kim Garrett (46:00) Yeah. Yeah. I think that was big for us too, like in our marriage was kind of breaking it down to like, not the, what the church teaches or whatever, but like, what do we value? What are our standards? ⁓ so that we had things that we still related on spiritually, you know, instead of finding the differences. So I think that's a good way in your marriage or in any relationship to find middle ground. Hey, look at that. And I think like the value itself, I mean, that's one thing that I guess another thing I've learned. I've really enjoyed not having beliefs handed down to me because I now have to think about and back up anything I say. You it used to be like, well, I don't agree with gay marriage because the prophet said it's bad, even though deep in my heart, I didn't care. Brynne Erickson (46:29) Hey! Kim Garrett (46:54) I was like, I don't have an issue with that thing, but the prophet says it's bad, so it's bad, you know? And now, like, I don't have any scapegoats. Like, whatever beliefs or ideas I have, like, I can't say, well, that's what Spencer W. Kimball said. It's like, well, what do I think? And I have to wrestle with those things before I get an opinion. Brynne Erickson (47:14) It's hard work, but it's work worth doing. Well, you guys, this is powerful, powerful stuff. Thank you so much for sharing. You guys are awesome. Kim Garrett (47:15) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you. Happy to share. Appreciate it. Hopefully it helps someone and I think what you're doing is important. Brynne Erickson (47:33) ⁓ Thank you guys for your support. Have a great night. See ya Kim Garrett (47:36) See ya.