Latest / The Inspired Stories Podcast / Adoption, Adversity, and Advocacy: Cheryl Lovell’s Personal and Professional Journey

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Adoption, Adversity, and Advocacy: Cheryl Lovell’s Personal and Professional Journey · The Inspired Stories Podcast

0:04
Welcome to another edition of the Inspired Stories podcast
0:07
where leaders share their experiences so we can learn from
0:11
their successes and be inspired by how they've overcome
0:14
adversity. My name is Anthony Kotaspodi and
0:16
today's guest is Cheryl Lovell, COO of Constellation Health
0:20
Services. They are a family centered
0:23
organization that offers a range of health services including
0:27
community based home health, palliative care, Hospice and
0:31
much more. Cheryl's also CEO of CLC Group,
0:36
which specializes in business consulting focusing on
0:39
healthcare leadership, mentoring and operational efficiencies.
0:43
They offer products and services designed to improve operations
0:46
and finance and businesses, especially in the healthcare
0:50
sector. Her background includes CEO
0:53
positions at Charter Healthcare and Southland Home Health,
0:56
highlighting her deep experience in healthcare leadership and
0:59
business development. She holds an MBA from Merrill
1:02
Hurst University and ABA from Webster University, which have
1:06
supported her focus on boosting organizational growth and
1:10
innovation. Her commitment to improving
1:12
healthcare operations has earned a recognition for guiding teams
1:15
through change and creating efficient systems.
1:19
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2:02
All right, back to our guest today, CEO of Constellation
2:05
Health Services, Cheryl Lynn Lavelle.
2:07
I appreciate you making the time to Share your story today.
2:11
Thank you. So Cheryl, you've LED several
2:14
healthcare organizations before and actually I think I just
2:18
messed up your title there. And in the second mentioned,
2:20
didn't I? It's not CEO, it's COO at
2:24
Constellation. So before joining Constellation
2:28
Health Services and and becoming the COO, I'm curious to talk a
2:31
little bit more about your background first.
2:33
What first drew you into healthcare leadership?
2:38
So I, I think it's a pretty fun, a little bit interesting story.
2:43
I was in the Navy, I was in the Gulf War.
2:46
During the Gulf War, we had lots of training in emergency trauma,
2:51
ER, all that kind of thing. And when I got out of the Navy,
2:55
my goal was to go to nursing school.
2:58
And I started nursing school in the early 90s in Oregon.
3:03
My husband was still in the military and we were getting
3:06
transferred around in early 90s. Nursing schools would not
3:09
transfer you wherever you wanted to go.
3:13
You. It was like they thought there
3:15
was going to be too many nurses. It was a really weird time.
3:19
And Webster University is the university that supports
3:24
military members and their families.
3:26
So they are on most military installations, travel with the
3:29
military. And one of the advisors said,
3:32
look, we have this new degree in healthcare administration.
3:35
You should go for that because it's going to be the wave of the
3:38
future, blah, blah, blah, there's going to be so many
3:40
nurses, yadda, yadda, yadda. So I ended up doing my degree
3:45
with Meryl Hurt with Webster, getting my degree in healthcare
3:48
administration and not finishing nursing school.
3:52
So that sort of propelled me into healthcare leadership.
3:56
I started out in healthcare after the military as a CNA,
4:00
worked my way up into operations, office management,
4:03
those kind of things. But I've kind of done every job
4:06
in the in the post acute setting from, you know, caregiver to
4:11
scheduling to office manager to administrator to leader and just
4:15
worked my way up through the ranks because I ended up not
4:19
being a clinician due to the whole weird nursing industry at
4:23
the time. So that's how I ended up in
4:25
healthcare leadership sort of by default, not as a nurse, but as,
4:30
you know, someone who understood the operations of the business.
4:34
Now it's it's probably hard to answer this with any definitive
4:37
but definitiveness, but I wonder, is there a part of you
4:41
that wishes that you had gone the nursing route?
4:43
Or do you feel pretty comfortable in the role of
4:46
administration? There's part of me that always
4:49
wishes I would have done it. However, what I, what I can say,
4:53
and I've said this many times in my career, is that many of my
4:58
friends and colleagues who went into home health and Hospice and
5:01
to that post acute visiting world were clinicians
5:05
themselves. And what I found is they solve
5:08
their own problems by being the nurse in the field, doing the
5:12
care. And that limited their ability
5:14
to grow and manage their business.
5:16
And I always had to find a solution because I couldn't be
5:19
the solution to my own problem. So it forced me to grow my
5:24
businesses differently with loyal employees and how to
5:29
manage things that I couldn't just control myself.
5:32
Because if I was a nurse and I couldn't find someone to do it,
5:35
the easy answer would have been go out and do it myself.
5:39
And I think I grew faster, learned more, and was a Better
5:43
Business person because I couldn't solve my own problem.
5:46
So give an example of how one of your peers, you know, who was a
5:50
nurse would have been able to go on site and what the solution
5:54
was that you had to find as an alternative.
5:56
I had to define, I had to find employees that were willing to
6:00
walk with me. I had to find the clinical team
6:03
and develop them as employees that would walk alongside me
6:07
would be as hungry as I was during startup phases of
6:12
businesses, things like that. So I think that when you, it
6:16
taught me how to build teams earlier, quicker, faster, and
6:21
really just get people to, you know, buy into your vision and
6:25
what you're doing. Whereas if I didn't do that and
6:27
I went and did it myself, I may not have developed the same
6:31
relationships with my employees and help them be as hungry as I
6:35
was and as motivated. What were some things that
6:38
helped you kind of develop those skills?
6:40
I mean, other than just sort of being forced to like in the
6:43
moment, were there, you know, mentors that kind of coached you
6:47
some courses or books or how did you get there?
6:50
I think one of my best mentors was very early on in my career,
6:54
right after I got out of this military, one of my first jobs
6:58
in an office. I was first a scheduler and then
7:01
I became the branch manager. That was with Kelly assisted
7:04
living way back in the day. Betty McNamara, I'll never
7:07
forget her. She was my boss, solid nurse,
7:10
whatever. And she called me one day and
7:13
she's like, look, you just really can't tell people what to
7:17
do. You have to like, ask them like,
7:19
you're not in the military anymore.
7:20
You have to like, you know, find a way to ask them to do their
7:25
jobs. You can't just tell them to go
7:26
do their job because they're not taking it very well.
7:28
And I was like, we're paying them to do their job.
7:31
I don't understand. Like, I don't get this.
7:33
And she's like, I'm just saying you got to find a different way.
7:37
Like this is not going to work for you long term.
7:39
So you really need to understand how to captivate your employees
7:43
in a different way by getting them to do what you want by
7:45
asking in a different way and whatever.
7:48
And maybe six months later or something like that, she called
7:51
me, she goes, you know, you're the only person I've ever had to
7:54
give like hard leadership advice to that listened to what I told
7:58
them and really, you know, grew. And I don't even know where
8:02
Betty is anymore. I don't even know if she's with
8:04
us anymore. But if she isn't, she listens to
8:06
this podcast. She was a huge impact on my
8:08
transition from military into real world leadership and
8:13
management. So she really helped me
8:15
understand that how to get how to ask people and get them to do
8:20
what you need them to do in a different way.
8:22
So she brought it to your attention like, hey, Cheryl, you
8:25
got to, you need a different approach here.
8:27
How did you actually figure out that approach?
8:31
God, it's been so long. I don't remember.
8:33
I think I just had to work at it and I think I was so surprised.
8:36
Like I can't like I, I just remember telling myself over and
8:39
over, I really have to ask people who we are paying to do a
8:43
job, to do their job. I don't understand.
8:46
But you know, eventually I maybe I asked her.
8:49
Maybe we did coaching. I'm not, I don't really
8:51
remember, but I know that I had to work really hard at it.
8:54
And which which company was this with?
8:57
That was with Kelly Assisted Living back in the day.
8:59
They got bought out by Res Care years ago or whatever, but it
9:02
was the old Kelly Girl Company. They were private duty home care
9:06
company. And so it was my really big
9:08
entry into leadership. And prior to Constellation,
9:13
which we're going to get to in a moment, you held CEO roles at
9:16
Charter Healthcare and Southland Home Health.
9:19
Can you think about maybe a big obstacle there that you faced
9:24
and how you were able to overcome?
9:25
It charter was the hardest we were I was brought in as the
9:29
turnaround CEO for a company that had been in some serious
9:36
trouble financially. And I think it was a, it was
9:40
just a situation that nobody knew that it was as bad as it
9:44
was until we really dug in a little bit differently and
9:47
different, you know, different eyes looking on something bring
9:51
sheds light where maybe there wasn't light before.
9:55
And when we thought was probably maybe a 10 or $15 million turn
9:58
around turned out to be double or triple that type of turn
10:02
around. And it was really significantly
10:04
impactful on the organization. And we just couldn't get out
10:08
from under the hurdles of it. So that was a super challenging
10:13
thing. We were so close but we just
10:16
couldn't get it over the the hurdle.
10:18
So eventually it did have to fold.
10:20
Yeah, it did. What was that like?
10:23
I mean, you were brought in to to make the the turn around and
10:26
for reasons outside your control just weren't able to pull that
10:30
off. It was really, I mean, I think
10:32
sometimes you learn more from your failures than you do from
10:35
your successes. But it was really hard.
10:37
It was hard because we had such great employees.
10:40
We had such a great leadership team.
10:43
There was just so much going for us, but we just didn't have
10:48
enough resources, cash, or, you know, whatever.
10:51
Like I always said, God, if I could have been in there a
10:53
couple years before, it would have been so different.
10:56
But I literally was the last 18 months of the business and we
11:00
just couldn't get it over the hump.
11:01
Myself and Anna Jean O'Neill, who just started her own with a
11:05
venture capital company, Cross Bridges, like we were a it was
11:10
just a dream team and she's going to do amazing things in
11:14
her new, new role and new world. But we, we just couldn't get it
11:19
over the hump. And we really, really tried.
11:21
We did everything that we could, but we worked our tails off as a
11:26
leadership team. And there were so many amazing
11:28
people working hard with us and they knew how devastating it was
11:33
for us to have to shut her down. You say that you learn more from
11:37
your failures. What do you think you learned
11:38
and through that experience? I think I learned how to pull
11:45
together a dream team pretty quickly and knowing that I built
11:50
significant enough relationships in my career that I could pull
11:53
people onto that team. And I think, you know, Jean
11:56
learned the same thing. We pulled the best of our best
11:59
right alongside of us that had we had worked with in the past
12:04
or that we had known. So we pulled a dream team
12:07
together like in record speed, I think within like 60 days maybe
12:12
from the time that we sort of took over until.
12:16
And they hung in there through the good, the bad, the
12:19
struggles, through the whole thing as we were trying to turn
12:22
things around, make better decisions.
12:25
And we had to make a lot of changes, a lot of hard choices
12:28
through the whole experience. And our leadership team was all
12:32
the way till the end. What got you through it on a
12:36
personal level? What did you lean on?
12:39
Where'd you go to for support? I think we leaned on each other.
12:42
Our leadership team was so tight.
12:45
We leaned on each other. We had calls.
12:48
We we met on a regular basis in person, So and that was hard
12:53
because we were all over the country, but we made those
12:56
things happen and we really supported each other.
12:59
I think all of us had our family support and that kind of thing
13:02
we did. So that was helpful, but we
13:04
really were there for each other.
13:06
Yeah. So how did the opportunity to
13:09
join Constellation come about? Oddly enough, a recruiter that I
13:15
had worked with in the past had called me up while we were in
13:20
the final quarter of charters existence and said, hey, I want
13:24
you to meet this guy, the owner of Consolation, he's trying to
13:28
do some different things, blah, blah, blah.
13:30
I think you guys would hit it off and he introduced us and
13:36
literally a week later there was an opportunity for him to
13:40
potentially put an offer on some of the charter assets that were
13:43
maybe being divested. And so our relationship grew
13:48
really quickly in a really short amount of time.
13:51
And based on building that relationship, he asked me to
13:56
join consolation with him and help him grow the operations.
14:01
And I think we've done 5 de Novos in the last year.
14:05
What is that? New start-ups from scratch?
14:09
Say more about that. What are these start-ups doing?
14:12
So they're all Hospice start-ups.
14:13
So it's 5 operations that we started up either with ourselves
14:18
or with joint ventures across our organization to really build
14:23
the footprint of consolation on the East.
14:25
So we're basically Texas and East.
14:28
So where is the company itself based?
14:31
The company's headquarters are in New York, so that's where
14:36
they started our main home health and Hospice offices in
14:40
Connecticut, but their corporate offices are Connecticut and New
14:44
York. And so we're mostly in East
14:47
Coast team and that's where the family that owns Consolation is
14:50
from. And is this all in home care?
14:54
It's all, it's all Hospice, home health, palliative care.
14:58
It's all in home care, Yes. Is the Hospice so it's always in
15:02
home even if it's Hospice, is that Hospice service ever
15:04
provided, you know, it's some sort of a senior care facility
15:07
or it. Can be if it's a particular
15:09
level of Hospice care there it's called general inpatient care,
15:13
which can be done at a hospital, a skilled facility or whatever.
15:16
But that's when a patient is experiencing significant pain
15:19
and symptom management that requires some 24 or nursing
15:23
care. OK, so say more about the
15:26
specifics of the Home Care Services that you provide?
15:30
So we provide home health in a couple of states, New York and
15:33
Connecticut and then we provide Hospice services in the rest of
15:37
our locations across the Eastern seaboard through from Texas
15:41
East. And we provide palliative care
15:44
services in most of those areas. And we're really focused on a
15:49
true palliative model, which is really a Part B physician
15:53
practice type of model where the patient is getting independent
15:57
pain and symptom management on palliative care programs.
16:00
What does that say more about that?
16:01
What does that mean exactly? Well, palliative care is really
16:07
support for anyone who has chronic diseases, multiple
16:11
chronic diseases, and eventually one of those chronic diseases is
16:14
going to be what takes their life, whether it's COPD,
16:16
diabetes, something like that. But it's usually senior patients
16:21
who have multiple comorbidities, which is the majority of the
16:24
country managing multiple medications.
16:27
And one of those things continues to impact them in a
16:31
negative way. They can't get their COPD under
16:33
control, they can't get their diabetes, whatever it is that's
16:36
really chronically impacting their health in a very negative
16:40
way. A palliative care provider can
16:43
help work with their primary care physician as a consultative
16:46
service to help manage some of those symptoms that may be more
16:50
difficult that are not maybe in the wheelhouse of the primary or
16:54
the patient is seeing a cardiologist, A urologist, A
16:56
nephrologist. So all of the different
16:58
ologists, right? And it really kind of helps
17:01
coordinate that big picture so everybody's on the same page
17:04
trajectory. So it really can bring that
17:08
family member, the patient and the family member a little bit
17:11
more continuity of care and consistency in that approach.
17:16
And where they maybe don't want continuing aggressive treatment
17:19
or how do they have conversations about not, you
17:22
know, doing extra more things, really just managing their end
17:27
of life in the best way that they can.
17:30
Now, I've talked with a number of home healthcare services and
17:33
a lot of them use a franchise model.
17:35
Is that what you're employing as well?
17:37
No, we are a family owned company.
17:40
So it is family owned and operated.
17:42
OK, What else sets you apart from some of the other home
17:46
health services out there? I think what really sets us
17:49
apart is the listen, I I say this all the time.
17:54
We are required by Medicare were required by the government to
18:00
all provide the same services. Like we, you have to have a
18:04
social work, you have to have a chaplain, you have to have a
18:06
nurse, you have to have an aide, you have to have all these
18:08
things that are government required, right?
18:12
But what sets you apart is your people and how you treat your
18:16
people and how your people treat the people you're treating,
18:18
right? Like that's the one thing that
18:21
can set you apart. Everybody can have this
18:23
specialty program, that specialty program, we're all
18:26
required to do the exact same things.
18:28
But what sets you apart is the people who are delivering the
18:31
care and how you're treating the people who are delivering the
18:33
care. And they are what make you look
18:35
good. Let's talk more about the people
18:39
because, you know, it's a tight labor market, right?
18:42
It's hard to find good folks, hard to hold on to good folks.
18:46
Sure. What are some things that you've
18:48
tried and found success with when it comes to recruiting and
18:52
retention? I think we're all always still
18:55
trying, like you think you got it and you don't.
18:58
And you know, I, I think the world has changed a lot in
19:01
recruiting and retention. I think people since COVID have
19:06
a very different mindset. So really people have no desire
19:14
to have I I feel like longevity is not something that is really
19:19
exists much anymore, right? I think it's you got to try to
19:25
create the culture and still have expectations and really be
19:29
able to hold people accountable. But people have changed.
19:32
It's a little more fickle. They don't, I've never
19:35
experienced in my career as many people who will just walk off
19:39
jobs now. They don't have any care,
19:42
loyalty, anything. And so if they come in and there
19:47
may be nothing that you can do to ingrain them in your culture
19:51
that will get them if they don't want to be there, they just will
19:53
walk off the job. And that's a whole new struggle
19:57
that we're dealing with. There's not a lot of times
19:59
people are giving notice anymore.
20:00
They're just like, I'm done, I'm out now in the professional
20:03
world, some of the clinicians have to give notice because it's
20:05
their license, you know, those kind of things.
20:07
But it is a really interesting dynamic and.
20:11
You just do the best you can. We have programs, we have
20:13
employee recognition. We have several things that we
20:16
try to employ. I don't think there's a magic
20:19
bullet for anything. I think you just got to do the
20:21
best you can. You have to be consistent and
20:24
you have to try to create a positive environment for people
20:28
who for the majority of people who want to show up every day,
20:31
you're not going to hit them all.
20:32
So I heard a lot of this, especially during COVID where
20:36
like people don't want to work. You know, we're begging, we're
20:40
bribing, we, you know, we can't get them to come in.
20:44
And I hear from a lot of folks that that has not changed a
20:48
whole lot. Maybe some people are coming
20:51
back to work, right? The government funds have kind
20:53
of run out and they, they need the job.
20:55
But it sounds like you're still dealing with kind of a a strange
20:59
environment where people don't have sort of that level of
21:03
commitment or responsibility that they used to.
21:06
Yeah, I, I think it's just different.
21:08
Like there are definitely people who are not like that, but
21:11
there's definitely a part of the population where they don't make
21:14
it through orientation. They agree to do a job and then
21:18
they I'm like, no, I'm not doing Like, it's just really
21:21
interesting, the dynamic and it is very different than prior to
21:25
COVID. Let's talk about CLC Group.
21:30
This is your consulting service company where you guys focus on
21:34
operational efficiencies and financial improvements for
21:37
healthcare companies. Can to help us and our listeners
21:41
kind of understand more specifically what you do, Maybe
21:44
can you share a recent example of an innovative approach that
21:49
you introduced to help a client overcome a big operational
21:52
challenge? I think, you know, an outside
21:56
perspective is always helpful when you're a business is
22:00
struggling with something. Someone who's not in the
22:03
day-to-day can see a different picture through the window,
22:08
right? So even if you don't necessarily
22:13
have a lot of money to bring in consultants, just to have
22:15
someone to look through your window and say, you know what, I
22:23
bet if you move this chair over to there, things are going to
22:27
change a lot, right, Laura? If you, if you just do this
22:31
little tweak where people when you're in it every day, you
22:33
can't see it. So sometimes I have the beauty
22:37
and my team at CLC, I have a few people who work with me, have
22:41
the ability to look in the window and go, oh, you know
22:44
what? I think that's blocking your
22:45
flow of traffic or I think that's impacting your ability to
22:49
get things done, or I see it from this way.
22:51
What do you think? And just pointing out things and
22:54
getting people to come along with saying, Oh my God, you're
22:59
right. Like I didn't see that for sure.
23:02
So in that kind of thing, so an example might be like like
23:06
traffic flow through a like a a waiting area and it's like, hey
23:09
it. Could be, it could be as simple
23:11
as like, oh just any workflow thing like I answer the phone
23:15
and this is how I process my intake through getting a patient
23:20
onto service. And if you just tweak this one
23:25
workflow in your process, you would save labor, save time,
23:31
save whatever. And that changes everything.
23:34
Or just even looking at, you know, what geography your
23:38
clinicians are in and how you're doing it and why someone's doing
23:41
it a particular way because they've always done it that way.
23:44
And if you just change one dynamic, you can change
23:47
productivity. And in healthcare, your most
23:51
expensive cost is labor, right? If you can manage your labor
23:54
efficiently, you make a better margin.
23:58
And it's really hard to do because people are people,
24:01
right? So how do you help leaders and
24:05
companies really effectively manage that most expensive part
24:10
of their business, which is their labor?
24:12
Without mentioning names, can you think of a particular client
24:15
scenario where you pulled this lever or turned that dial and
24:20
here was the situation before and here was the situation
24:23
after? Yeah.
24:25
So I had a client that I worked with a few years ago and really
24:29
they processed their paperwork in such an archaic way and they
24:37
scheduled their labor in an archaic way.
24:40
And we just changed how they scheduled and how they did their
24:44
paperwork. And they were able to go from
24:46
losing, you know, maybe 8 million to losing 4 million to,
24:52
I think they're at the point where they're now close to break
24:55
even for the first time just in keeping those processes enacted.
24:59
Just by changing how they schedule folks.
25:01
So just by. Changing how they did their
25:04
paperwork and how they scheduled folks, Yeah.
25:06
And so that they didn't have as too many people working a shift
25:10
where it was unnecessary. Well, think about in the field,
25:14
there's not a shift. It's like how many people that
25:16
you can see on an everyday basis and what kind of caseload can
25:20
you handle. So there isn't anybody coming
25:23
into a building. They're all trying to manage a
25:25
certain number of patients. Where do they manage them?
25:28
How do they manage them? How do they get from one place
25:30
to the other? Because the biggest part of our
25:32
industry is limiting windshield time, right?
25:36
Because the longer it takes you to get from one to the other,
25:39
the bigger impact it has on our ability to see more, right?
25:42
So if you can just manage your scheduling efficiently and keep
25:47
your dots on the map as close as you can keep them, then you end
25:50
up with a better outcome. Got it.
25:53
So the consulting services that you're providing with CLC Group
25:57
is to the same kinds of organizations that you're a COO
25:59
at. It's for home healthcare
26:01
companies. Yeah, home health and Hospice.
26:05
OK. And there's not a conflict of
26:06
interest there like the the when I.
26:10
Have like a main client. If I do something for someone
26:14
else, then I just run that by my client like so just say that I
26:18
would do something, I would talk to consolation and be like, hey,
26:21
are you good if I help this person with this?
26:24
But I'm pretty much full time there so.
26:28
Gotcha. And that's my.
26:29
Focus now. You've been recognized for
26:32
excellence in the public sector and have experience in community
26:36
investments. Can you say more about that?
26:38
Well, I think I, in the companies that I've run, I've
26:41
won awards for innovation and quality.
26:45
Some of them were, it feels like 100 years ago, but just trying.
26:50
Back in the day, one of the awards that I won was for
26:53
innovation and quality when everything was still on paper,
26:56
before there was even an electronic medical record, when
26:59
all of your files were in giant file rooms at the Wee Wee arms,
27:03
you know, that kind of thing. And just trying to be more
27:09
innovative because Medicare was changing all of the compliance
27:12
perspectives. And so just creating fun unique
27:16
ways, I created a compliance Monopoly game where they could
27:20
win prizes if they pass go based on their compliance.
27:24
And remember, we're tracking this all on paper, pieces of
27:27
paper. It was before there was like, we
27:30
were just getting to the place where you could scan in some of
27:32
the Medicare questions and everything had to be done very
27:37
manually. So it was really a long time ago
27:41
that we got to be even more creative and innovative with
27:44
software and things. Now it's really having the best
27:47
tools in the toolbox. Like, if you have the right
27:49
tools in your toolbox, you can be more successful than when we
27:53
had to like figure it all out on paper.
27:56
The Monopoly game reminded me of.
27:58
I can't remember the time period when McDonald's have that really
28:00
popular. Is that?
28:02
Was that part of the inspiration back then or?
28:04
I don't remember why. Maybe I don't even remember why.
28:07
Gosh, it wasn't like 2000, 345 maybe like it was 100 years ago.
28:13
It feels like maybe it's 20 years ago.
28:17
So I'm looking at your website herewhichisconstellationhs.com
28:22
and yeah, I see most of your locations are out east.
28:27
I see. Ohio, Pennsylvania.
28:29
And Texas? And Texas, yeah.
28:32
What are the future plans? What, what kind of growth do you
28:36
guys have in mind? I think for the CEO Sky's the
28:40
limit, whatever we can do. And you know, maintain, I think
28:43
when you do a lot of new startups, you got to get, once
28:46
you do them all, you got to get them humming at a certain level.
28:49
And I think Medicare is taking a long time to get things
28:53
processed these days with all the changes in the cuts or
28:56
whatever. So the process is a little bit
28:58
slower than I think we've all seen in the past.
29:01
But so it takes a good year and a half to get those really
29:04
standing on their own 2 feet. And then once that is, who
29:07
knows? Like it's his is, is his circus
29:11
and I just help him, you know, ring lead at all.
29:15
Say more about the challenges with Medicare.
29:18
I just think they're under a lot of scrutiny.
29:20
There's a lot of changes in the administration.
29:23
There's just a lot of things going on.
29:25
And I'm sure that there were cuts from a staffing
29:28
perspective. And, you know, it's just a big
29:31
machine and nothing is super efficient.
29:34
And I think people don't even know this.
29:37
And I wish this is one of the things Doge would have handled.
29:40
But Medicare's back end system is still a DOS based system.
29:45
When you log in directly to Medicare, it's still the green
29:48
and black screen, like it is old.
29:51
Like it is really, really old. It doesn't talk.
29:54
It's not super efficient. And I think an upgrade to their
29:57
back end would be much warranted and needed for them, but
30:01
certainly above my pay grade. And I, you know, they try hard,
30:06
but they're certainly limited to what they have in front of them
30:09
and what's available. And so how does that impact you
30:12
as you're growing? It is.
30:13
It's just taking too long to get the the agreement set up with
30:17
Medicare. It's just a lot, a long time for
30:20
them to respond to requests and to be able to update requests.
30:23
And like we were just told things that are normally taking
30:26
30 to 90 days may take 120 to 180 days, like just simple
30:31
requests, simple appeal requests, just simple things.
30:34
So it's definitely and I think impacting everybody in the
30:39
industry, yeah. OK, so we're back from a small
30:43
technical glitch. We had a little bit of a a power
30:46
hiccup, but we're back into the interview.
30:49
And Cheryl, I want to take this opportunity to kind of change
30:53
directions a little bit. And I would like to hear about a
30:56
serious challenge that you've overcome in your life, personal
31:00
or professional. How did you get through it?
31:03
What did you learn through the process?
31:06
Maybe I'll talk a little bit about both personal and
31:08
professional. So we adopted our son when he
31:14
was 5 1/2 years old from the foster care system in Atlanta.
31:18
And, you know, you go into these things, maybe, you know, with
31:26
grandiose visions or whatever, But when a child has a troubled,
31:32
you know, upbringing up to 5 1/2, there's so much that that
31:37
child has to overcome. And becoming parents to a child
31:41
who had some significant emotional and mental health
31:46
needs was probably more than we bargained for.
31:50
And it we spent the majority of his childhood trying to help
31:56
create the best environment that we could.
31:59
And he's 21 today and doing well as an independent human.
32:04
But we struggled many of the years just trying to get him to
32:10
be able to be a good human. And like, my one and only goal
32:14
for him was to graduate high school.
32:16
Like if I could just do anything, it would be get him to
32:19
graduate high school. And he, it took him a couple of
32:23
years after he decided that we couldn't help him when he was 18
32:28
to kind of figure it out on his own.
32:30
And I'm happy to say that he's, you know, a working adult in
32:34
Georgia at this moment in time. But there are many days through
32:38
his childhood that I thought, are we going to make it?
32:40
Like, are we all going to make it?
32:41
And it definitely impacted our family and our family dynamic.
32:45
You don't change those things for the world.
32:47
But I was not necessarily equipped for the impact that it
32:51
would have on me as a human, on my other son, on just our
32:56
environment, the family in general.
32:59
And so there's just, I just, I think I would say to people who
33:03
are in those situations, make sure you have a great support
33:06
network. Make sure you have people to
33:07
talk to, make sure you are equipped to handle things.
33:10
Because I think people don't talk about, you know, oh, like
33:14
we're adopting or we're, you know, helping a child out of the
33:17
foster care system. If you know anybody who's doing
33:21
that and you have loved ones, reach out for support because it
33:24
is harder than I think anybody thinks it is.
33:26
And I don't think it's one of those things people talk about
33:30
because nobody wants to say don't do those type of things.
33:33
Everybody, you know, we all need people who are willing to
33:36
support. But it is a significant impact.
33:39
And I'll get on the little soapbox.
33:43
The mental health availability for our youth, for people who
33:48
are middle class or upper middle class, it does.
33:51
Non existent insurance doesn't cover it.
33:55
You have to pay for it out of your pocket.
33:57
You'll be lucky if they put it towards your deductible.
34:00
Most practices don't take insurance.
34:03
They're cash pay, but they're required to take Medicaid.
34:07
And if you have a lot of money, you can pay cash.
34:09
But for the people who are in that middle, upper middle class,
34:13
when you're talking about multiple therapy appointments a
34:15
week that cost between 100 and $150.00 an appointment and they
34:20
have to go two or three times a week, that's in a significant
34:24
amount of money that most people have to forgo because that many
34:29
people can't afford that. And for the people who have
34:32
working class regular healthcare insurance, therapists have been
34:36
so impacted by the way insurance companies pay them that they
34:41
won't accept insurance. They'll only accept Medicaid
34:45
because they're required to accept Medicaid and you, you
34:51
can't get your insurance to accept and pay you back for any
34:55
of the bills. Like it's really a difficult
34:58
thing. And if there was something I
34:59
could do in my retirement or whatever, it would be figuring
35:02
out how to fix this problem because if you have a lot of
35:06
money, you don't have to worry about it.
35:08
Like the special schools. Like there was times when we
35:10
looked at sending our son to a special school for a couple of
35:13
years. They're 50 to $80,000 a year.
35:16
I can't afford that. They wanted you to take reverse
35:19
mortgages out. There's no payment for those
35:21
type of things. When some children need some
35:24
kind of structured environment and families are at their wits
35:27
end. If you're not taking out double
35:29
mortgages or doing things you can't afford to send your
35:32
children to these to these things that may help them.
35:35
And so you feel really stuck as a parent and then and as a
35:39
family when you want to give support and there's nothing you
35:43
can do and you can't afford it and you can't afford a second
35:45
mortgage on your house to pay for your child's therapy that
35:49
may or may not work, right? Like it's just a crapshoot and
35:52
it doesn't work if they don't protect.
35:53
Like it's just, it's probably one of the biggest struggles.
35:57
And if I had something I could advocate for in my future and
36:00
really be profoundly invested in, it would be what happens to
36:05
the kids in this middle class, upper middle class sector where
36:10
the families do have health insurance, but it is not helping
36:13
them at all. And so the folks at the lower
36:16
end of the wage scale, there are things available to them through
36:18
Medicaid. Is that my understanding then?
36:21
Yeah, yeah. And so.
36:22
If you have Medicaid. Folks who are very wealthy, they
36:24
they have their own means, but kind of people in the middle
36:27
are, are sort of the ones that get stuck. 100% and it's super
36:31
frustrating. Yeah, as a parent, all you want
36:34
to do is help, right? And you don't know what's going
36:36
to help. And and that's a whole another
36:38
set of frustrations on its own. Like you said, like therapy may
36:41
or may not work. They the the child may not
36:44
participate. Maybe the therapist doesn't have
36:47
the right connection. Like there's all those sort of
36:49
variables there on whether or not it will work.
36:51
But you have to at least try different things.
36:54
And accessing some of these different things to try is
36:57
incredibly expensive and, and you know, sometimes just
37:00
completely. Accessible, it's super.
37:03
I mean, that's probably the most frustrating thing.
37:05
I spent my entire life kind of working, you know, with or
37:10
towards and it it's just was, it definitely took a toll.
37:16
And so as you're kind of going through these really challenging
37:19
years, I'm going to guess it's kind of you and your husband
37:22
leaning on each other where there's sort of other people in
37:25
in extended support network that you guys.
37:27
Lean on, I think I, I think I mentioned to you earlier that we
37:31
lived in Arizona and it was to be near family.
37:35
We had lived away, we moved back to Arizona to be near family
37:38
when he was younger to have that support.
37:42
There is nothing better than, you know, having a strong family
37:45
and family support. Not everybody has that, but I'm
37:47
fortunate and we're fortunate enough that we were able to have
37:51
that and we had our family supporting through the majority
37:53
of the the our children's growing up so.
37:59
Wow. And is there a professional
38:01
challenge that you want to give voice to as well?
38:04
You know, I, I think when, when I was in Arizona and I moved to
38:10
Arizona to help a family business start their home health
38:14
Hospice and palliative care company.
38:16
And we, I came in early on at the beginning and we grew that
38:22
company very significantly, very, very quickly.
38:26
But there's a couple lessons that you learn when you're
38:29
growing a business. And I have the fortune of having
38:32
some ownership in the business. But when you're growing a
38:34
business like that, you know, everybody's focused on grow,
38:39
grow, grow. What I learned about growing in
38:43
this type of industry where all of your reimbursement is in the
38:46
rears, right? So you take care of people, but
38:48
you're paid 60 days behind, but you're providing services 60
38:52
days ahead. I think a lot of, and I've
38:56
talked to a lot of smaller business owners or whatever, you
38:59
have to have the right amount of capital to paste your cash.
39:03
And I think learning that lesson in real time was unbelievably
39:11
stressful. And we had a couple people try
39:16
to give us advice and you're young and stubborn and you don't
39:19
necessarily want to listen. And sometimes you learn your
39:22
lessons way the hard way. And I think in that scenario,
39:25
like everybody gets glossy eyed over, Oh my God, we're growing
39:30
so fast and we're so big and we got so big so fast.
39:33
But you can't always manage the money, the cash behind that, and
39:37
you have to have better. We just didn't have a strong
39:42
enough strategic plan as we started to grow too fast and
39:47
outpaced our cash. And that was really, really hard
39:50
lesson to learn. Yeah, Yeah.
39:52
I don't think a lot of people realize that a lot of small
39:55
businesses are sort of this in this in between place of kind of
39:58
acting like a bank, right? You're fronting the cash to pay
40:03
your employees to deliver this service today, but nobody's
40:08
fronting you that cash, right? You have to, you know, somehow
40:12
have the cash reserve, have a line of credit, you know, money
40:16
in the bank. Because you're not getting paid
40:18
for. 60 days and the banks don't, they don't look at
40:23
Medicare receivables in our industry as good collateral.
40:28
So it's really hard to get the line of credit associated with
40:31
what type of business you're doing.
40:33
So we learned a lot of lessons that way, like it's not what you
40:38
think it is and it was so much harder than we thought it was
40:42
going to be. And they're, you know, the
40:44
personal guarantee part of loans and things like that puts a big
40:47
toll and pressure on small owners.
40:51
Like it's just, it was definitely stuff that I wasn't
40:55
expecting and it was harder than I thought.
40:58
And definitely, you know, have learned significantly.
41:03
You can't grow your business outside of your cash.
41:05
And like, I guess you can't learn that lesson sometimes.
41:08
So you go through it. Yeah.
41:11
Is factoring a thing in your industry?
41:14
It is, but I don't recommend it to anyone because it's takes so
41:19
much. Our margins are so tight as it
41:22
is, you can't afford it. Yeah, Yeah.
41:26
They take a big chunk of it. And it's interesting that banks
41:28
wouldn't recognize those Medicare receivables you have.
41:33
To have enough personal assets behind it and so we just.
41:37
Because they didn't trust that the Medicare receivables were
41:39
gonna get paid or I. Really don't know why I just
41:42
think it wasn't a thing for them.
41:44
I don't know cuz it's too much paper.
41:47
Here's the think about the home health industry.
41:49
Hospice is a little bit different, but think about the
41:51
home health industry. The home health industry is a
41:55
payment guessing system. You fill out a piece of paper at
41:58
the beginning of the care that you're delivering to that
42:01
individual and Medicare anticipates that you're going to
42:04
get X amount of dollars, right? So they anticipate that patient
42:08
is worth $2500 for the next 30 days and then that patient is no
42:14
longer with you and you discharge them.
42:16
And depending on the care that you delivered and the things
42:19
that you did, that $2500 could go down to $200.
42:23
If you only did a couple of required elements of the care,
42:27
it could go down to $1500, it could go above $2500.
42:35
So your, so you're anticipating what you're going to get paid in
42:41
advance by your initial assessment and then you get
42:44
reimbursed based on what you say you did 30 or 60 days later and
42:50
they automatically make the adjustments.
42:53
That's a hard place to live. It's a hard place to run a
42:55
business like home health just gets tougher and tougher and
42:58
tougher. And there's some legislation
43:00
going on about more cuts to the home health industry and I and
43:04
there's just not going to be care available for the seniors
43:07
if they continue to cut it. The margins are small, the labor
43:11
keeps getting more and more expensive, and it's hard to keep
43:15
up. And we're in the midst of the
43:18
silver tsunami where there are more and more people who are
43:22
needing this kind of care. So it's it'll be interesting to
43:25
follow. Setting all humility aside,
43:28
Cheryl, what would you characterize is your superpower?
43:33
I think that my ability to come into a situation and see like
43:39
all the puzzle pieces floating in the air and being able to try
43:42
to fit them together and make that uniquely dynamic
43:46
experience. Because I just kind of like if
43:49
we were having a conversation, say that you wanted me to talk
43:53
about your business, Whatever your business is, you want me to
43:55
talk about it and we have a conversation.
43:57
I'll be like, hey, did you think of this?
43:59
What about this? What about this?
44:00
I may know nothing about your business, but for some reason my
44:03
mind works in this crazy way where I can just see like these,
44:07
oh, what about this have what about this, what about this?
44:10
And I can really pull things together that you're like, holy
44:14
cow, that's like a really great idea.
44:16
Or like so that I feel like is one of my unique traits.
44:20
You're able to play 3D business chess.
44:24
I think a little bit. Yeah.
44:28
How about a resource that you might recommend to our
44:31
listeners? A book or a podcast?
44:33
A course that's been helpful for you?
44:37
You know, I, I'm really a fan of, you know, how to win friends
44:42
and influence people like old school.
44:45
Like I think in this day and age, that should be a mandatory
44:48
high school reading requirement. I made my kids read it in high
44:52
school, and I have to say that's a huge thing.
44:56
I taught my kids to communicate. This is a technology day age.
44:59
Nobody talks, they text, everything is whatever.
45:02
So an old school mandatory reading requirement for
45:07
everybody entering the workforce would be How to win Friends and
45:10
influence People. I also think Lincione has really
45:14
great storytelling capability when you're talking about the
45:18
ideal team player, things like that.
45:20
If you haven't read that book, I recommend read The Ideal Team
45:23
Player because it really does make a difference.
45:26
And I'll give a funny story about that if anybody has read
45:29
the book. He tells the story about the
45:31
receptionist and how the candidate treated the
45:34
receptionist, and that really was an impact on whether that
45:38
candidate was going to get a job.
45:40
And So what I used to love to do when I had my company at
45:43
Southland is when I had interviewees coming in, I would
45:46
sit at the front desk. So I would sit at the front desk
45:50
to check them in, to see how they treated me, checking them
45:54
in, not knowing who I was. And then when I walked them back
45:57
to the interview and I sat behind my desk to to conduct the
46:01
interview, sometimes the shock on people's faces was
46:06
unbelievable. Is that something you learned
46:08
from the book? It was something, it was so it
46:11
was such AI loved it. I'm just saying if you ever want
46:15
to figure out people's real whatever, if you're the person
46:19
conducting the interview, sit at the front desk and check them in
46:23
for their interview and then walk them back because you will
46:25
learn unbelievable things. What was the the most priceless
46:31
reaction you can recall? Well, because someone came in
46:34
and was late eating their food, you know, just not really
46:42
prepared. And we're very dismissive to me
46:47
checking them in and like, I'm here like I'm in a hurry.
46:50
Like you, like you have to, like I'm.
46:52
It was just the way they handled themselves when they put
46:55
themselves in a very stressful situation.
46:58
And so then when I walked them back and sat down, they were
47:00
like, oh God, I just blew this, didn't I?
47:02
And they just got up and left. Well, you know, you got to
47:07
respect at least that part of it.
47:09
Like saves you a little bit of extra time.
47:11
Right. But it was definitely
47:13
enlightening. Yeah, another gold nugget from
47:16
that book, because that was that was a good one.
47:19
Really understanding who another gold nugget from that book is.
47:26
Really understanding the people who you have and are you using
47:30
all the talents of the people who you have, right?
47:33
Like do you really? Are you really maximizing the
47:35
potential now don't over maximize the potential because
47:38
that's worse. Like that whole Peter Principle
47:40
thing is a true thing. Oh, I have a really good nurse
47:43
in the field. I'm going to move her into
47:44
management. I'm in a situation right now
47:47
where there was a person that's a friend of mine was like, oh, I
47:53
just moved my best nurse into management, you know, that kind
47:56
of thing. And she didn't make it like now
47:58
not not only did she lose her best nurse in the field, she
48:02
lost her best nurse to the company because she didn't make
48:05
it in the promotion. She didn't had no management
48:08
experience, no leadership experience, no ability to draw
48:12
from anything. And so that really impacted her
48:17
business in a negative way that she did not expect.
48:20
So you can't just because they're really good here doesn't
48:24
mean they're going to be really good in leadership.
48:26
And I think that happens a lot in our industry.
48:28
You have a great nurse, they're good with their patients,
48:31
they're great with everything, but that they can't always lead.
48:34
And if you're going to promote people to be leaders who don't
48:38
have experience, you've got to give them training.
48:41
You have to give them leadership training.
48:43
You have to send them the leadership classes.
48:45
You have to have them read books because that is something that I
48:47
think we do in healthcare all the time.
48:49
We take really good clinical people and try to put them in
48:52
leadership and they struggle, flounder and fail.
48:57
And so in that example that you were just recounting there, that
49:00
was sort of the missing piece is they just sort of popped her
49:02
into that position and didn't give her that training that she
49:06
needed to be successful. Right.
49:08
And and didn't recognize that. That's why there was a struggle,
49:14
right? Like not recognizing that.
49:16
Yeah. They thought it was her, that
49:18
individual's failure. Yeah.
49:19
Right. And they didn't have anything to
49:22
draw from. It was, it was unfair.
49:26
Yeah, how about a daily practice, a habit ritual that is
49:30
important to you, either getting you started for the day or
49:33
keeping you on track. I that's a really good question.
49:39
I love my morning. I hate to say this, but I love
49:42
my little Morning News update. Like I start my day everyday
49:44
with this like 20 minute podcast of my Morning News updates and I
49:49
really enjoy it and it just kind of helps me know what's going on
49:52
in the world and know that I, I don't have things as bad as
49:56
other places. And so it just makes me feel.
49:59
Like recalculate reality for you.
50:02
Yeah, I can conquer my day. It's all going to be good.
50:05
Yeah, at least my life's not as bad as that person's.
50:08
Is that the idea? Well, and I, I'm in general a
50:11
high energy human. Like I just have high energy
50:16
that I don't, I don't have to do a lot to have it.
50:19
It just it comes naturally for me.
50:21
So I'm a high energy person and I tend to be very, very
50:24
positive. I'm a glass half full for sure
50:27
person. Love it.
50:29
I think those make great leaders.
50:31
Those are the people that others want to follow.
50:34
Cheryl, you know, sometimes our mistakes in the moment become
50:39
our greatest teachers down the road.
50:41
Is there an early career moment that seemed like a set back at
50:43
the time that actually propelled you forward?
50:47
Maybe you look back on that moment now with some gratitude.
50:51
Yeah. I, I was working for a company
50:56
that had significant change in senior leadership in, in the
51:00
period that I worked there. And I was let go from that
51:06
company and I had done a very, very good job.
51:09
So I was super surprised. Like I'm let go.
51:12
Oh my goodness. Like what am I going to do?
51:14
But what that allowed me to do at the time in, in my life was
51:19
be able to move and experience different post acute health
51:23
healthcare in, in different ways across the country and really
51:27
project my career to the next level.
51:30
So I, I think had that not happened, I would not have been
51:35
in the position to own my own home health and Hospice with a
51:39
family and to start my consult. Like everything I think happens
51:45
for a reason. And so, but at the time, it
51:48
feels so ugly, like you get fired, like nobody wants to be
51:51
fired, but like it happens to the best of us.
51:54
Sometimes things don't work out. Sometimes it's not the the right
51:57
fit. And I think if you can look at
51:59
it, that that is really, you have to make hay when the sun
52:06
shines, right? Like, so you don't know when
52:07
it's going to be, but you, you, if you make the best of
52:10
everything that happens to you, it can project you.
52:13
And everything happens for a reason that gets you to the next
52:15
place. And I wouldn't change any of my
52:18
experiences. Some of them were harder than
52:20
others, but I wouldn't change any of them because they really
52:22
made me who I am as a leader today.
52:26
You know, I've been through similar things myself.
52:29
I've seen other friends, other guests go through, you know,
52:32
similar trajectories where it's like this door almost had to
52:38
close in order for you to see another door that was a little
52:43
bit further down the road. But it feels so painful and it
52:46
feels like it feels so final and, and almost paralyzing
52:51
sometimes when that that current door closes, right?
52:56
And you don't understand always and you question all the time,
52:59
like what could I have done differently?
53:01
What why didn't, why didn't they, you know, like you just
53:05
question everything and you run those things over and over in
53:09
your head. And so, but it's, it's
53:11
definitely is important to understand that everything
53:16
happens for a reason, no matter how hard they are.
53:19
And it's going to get you to where you need to be.
53:22
Yeah, I like that message. What's one thing you wish more
53:26
people knew about your industry? I wish they knew how much the
53:37
regulations impact us from necessarily providing as much
53:41
bedside care as we could. The documentation and the
53:45
paperwork part of our industry, I think really prohibits maybe
53:51
more excellent care because you know, when you're spending time
53:57
bringing a patient onto services, it's an hour with the
54:01
patient, but two hours of paperwork, right?
54:04
Like, so if you could spend that full 3 hours with the patient
54:08
and not 2 of it with paperwork. And I'm hoping that AAI does big
54:12
things with our ability to manage the paperwork and speak
54:15
to text and things like that. But what's happening is our
54:19
margins are really small and all the AI cost a lot of money.
54:23
And so there's got to be some happy medium where we can use
54:26
the technology without continuing to have the
54:30
significant impact on cost. Like it's like everybody's
54:34
gaining from it, but we're still feeling the pain of the cost of
54:38
the technology and the margins just aren't what everybody
54:43
thinks there. This is not like a million.
54:45
You're not going to be like a bazillionaire.
54:47
Like you have to be doing this because you care about it.
54:49
Like the owner of our company cares about delivering quality
54:53
care, great care, great services.
54:57
And that is hard sometimes when you're weighing like labor costs
55:02
and what can you invest in and what can you buy for your staff
55:05
and those kind of things. It's really difficult.
55:07
And we shouldn't necessarily have to be in that type of
55:10
burden. We should be able to have access
55:11
to better things. We should have access to maybe
55:15
less burdensome paperwork. There's just so much technology
55:19
available. And I think it's sad when you
55:21
can say there's so much technology available, but
55:23
Medicare's the back end system is still DOS based green screen.
55:28
Right. Do you think like a possible
55:30
solution could look something like the following, like the
55:34
visit with the patient is recorded either audio or video,
55:38
both. And you know, the AI sort of
55:42
takes that and uses the transcript from that to kind of
55:46
fill in some of the documentation and the notes and
55:48
the forms that are required. That'd be fantastic.
55:51
Yeah, that'd be fantastic. And are people doing this but
55:55
it's just cost prohibitive or is nobody even gone there yet?
55:59
Yeah, there's transcript stuff available where you can do talk
56:03
to text, but they're there isn't and maybe people are working on
56:07
it and I'm not up to speed and everything.
56:09
But there there's talk to text now, but that's, you know, I'll
56:13
just in our industry it's around $30 per person who uses talk to
56:17
text to get their narratives done.
56:20
That's expensive when you think about it, like if you have
56:22
thousands of employees, $30 a person is expensive, right?
56:27
So, but there, there are some things coming, there are a few
56:30
things, but I'm hoping that at some point, I mean, there's a
56:34
technology out right out right now where you can stick a little
56:37
pod next to someone's bed and it can monitor their respirations
56:41
and their movement and things like that.
56:43
And per predictive analytics, there's some cool things
56:46
happening, but not necessarily I think there's probably things
56:51
happening on the back end for the paperwork burden.
56:53
And I think that would be fantastic if we could record an
56:56
interaction with the and that transcribed into the required
57:00
paperwork so that it picked up all the things that it needed
57:03
and knew how to do those predictive analytics.
57:06
And I'm sure those things are being worked on, but I, I don't
57:09
know of any right now they're doing that in our, in our
57:13
industry. Well, if anyone's listening and
57:16
this is in your wheelhouse, you contact Cheryl and I.
57:20
We'll partner up with you and make this a reality.
57:23
Just one more question for you, Cheryl, But before I ask you, I
57:25
want to do 2 things. First of all, everybody
57:27
listening today, pause for just a second.
57:29
Open up that podcast app you're listening to on now.
57:31
Go ahead, hit the follow or subscribe button.
57:33
I want you to continue to get more great interviews like we've
57:35
had today with Cheryl Lovell from Constellation.
57:40
If you got an extra second, just go ahead and leave us a little
57:42
bit of feedback. A review would be nice.
57:45
That helps other people find the show and make sure that they get
57:48
to hear these great stories too. And Cheryl, before I ask this
57:51
last question, I want to let people know either the best way
57:54
to get in touch with you to follow your story or that of
57:58
either of the companies that you're involved with.
58:00
Yeah, you could just reach me at cheryl@clcgroupco.com.
58:11
Great. And we'll include a link to your
58:13
e-mail address in the show notes.
58:15
So last question for you, Cheryl.
58:17
We've had a great conversation today.
58:18
You and I reconnect a year from now and you're celebrating
58:21
something big. It's it's, it's something, it's,
58:24
it's a big thing. What's that one thing you're
58:25
celebrating? Oh, that's a good question.
58:35
I'm just going to go personal. I hope it's my son's engagement
58:38
and that he's going to be, you know, moving on.
58:40
And someday I'll get to have grandbabies.
58:42
That would be like the best thing for me as a human.
58:47
I love it. OK, well, I hope to hear that
58:49
news here in the coming months. I'll share a level from
58:53
Constellation. I want to be the first to thank
58:55
you for sharing both your time and your story with us today.
58:58
I really appreciate it. Thank you.
59:00
It's nice talking to you everybody.
59:01
Have a great day. Thank you.
59:04
Folks, that's a wrap on another episode of the Inspired Stories
59:07
podcast. Thanks for learning with us
59:08
today.