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Leadership Through Storytelling (with Terry Stafford) · The Daily Writer

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Writer.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Each weekday, we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer: creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with notable writers, as well as teaching that helps us apply what we're learning and also prepare for the week ahead.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whenever I talk to people about podcasting, I frequently tell them that one of the main reasons I do a podcast is that it gives me a place to invite awesome people and have really fun conversations.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: And this episode is exactly that kind of thing.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thrilled to bring you a conversation with my good friend Terry Stafford.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Terry is an award-winning author who's written four novels, and the most recent one of those novels released just a short time ago, and it actually completed a trilogy, which is a pretty amazing accomplishment in itself.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Terry is also an editor, and in fact, he recently edited a book that I ghostwrote for a client, and he did an absolutely amazing job.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Terry has a background in the U.S.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Navy and also with NASA as a project manager, and yes, that is the NASA, the organization that sent people to the moon.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Based on his experience in project management, Terry saw how his experience in that field could bring order out of creative chaos in his own writing life.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: He strongly believes that leadership principles can be taught through story, which is exactly what we're here to talk about today.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: In our conversation, Terry shares how he explores leadership through his novels, as well as his process for crafting a story.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: He also talks about writing habits, the writing tools he uses, and a bunch of other really, really awesome stuff.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get right into the conversation with my good friend Terry Stafford.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thrilled that you could join us today.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Kent.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: It is really exciting to be here.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've been looking forward to this.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Me too, absolutely.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's a lot of things that we could talk about, and we'll we're going to get to several uh topics and subjects in this conversation.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: But where I would like to start out is talking about leadership through storytelling.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you are a fiction author, and you recently released your third book in a trilogy, which is really, really exciting.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just love to explore for a minute how did writing novels get you interested in exploring leadership through storytelling?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's a lot of fiction authors, there's a lot of leadership people, but I I've really never seen those two things blended, and I find that really fascinating.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I only recently uh figured this out, but I when I was writing that um that trilogy, it was intended to be a political thriller trilogy, and I I came to the conclusion quickly that people are sick of politics these days and don't really want to read more about it.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I started thinking of what the book was about, why I wrote it, uh, went back to the beginning, and the the protagonist in that uh is an is a guy named Brandon McStocker, and he's a really senior project manager who does these impossible projects for the president of the U.S.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: and and all that.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: But when it when it wasn't working as a political thriller, I started thinking about my project management experience and the reason I created Brandon McStocker.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I have like over 30 years project management with NASA and some U.S.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Air Force contracts, but I started looking at the way I wrote the character, Brandon McStocker, and his leadership skills, which when I went back and started looking, he was he's a pretty smart guy, you know.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, well, he's he he kind of exudes this leadership, you know, everybody respects him and um he's a man of integrity.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: He had he has his burdens to deal with, as any protagonist should.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I started thinking about leadership and you know started running it by some friends of mine, some some of the gurus that that we both know, and started thinking about learning leadership principles through fiction.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, well, what what a neat trilogy it would be to start doing that.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I've since learned that it is a real thing, leadership, um, fiction.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm learning more about it.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've actually been reading a lot of articles about uh how to teach uh principles through story, you know, and it's a big thing in business these days as well, teaching through story or presenting through story rather than just facts and figures.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that we learn differently through stories than we do through nonfiction content or speeches, lectures, those kinds of things?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think so.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: Stories are more engaging, I think.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it it kind of hits all the senses.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people people learn visually and they can see what's happening in the story if the story is told well.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then you have the auditory learners who who can hear the story and they're listening to the to the storyteller's voice and how all that works, and then the kinesthetic learners that learn from feeling, you know, they they get their feels from the story, you know, they they engage with certain story.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so it it kind of hits all the senses.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think it's less boring, you know.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: You you quickly want to learn what comes next in the story, what the moral of the story is, and you can kind of shape those stories to get right to the point of what you're trying to teach or you know, the points you're trying to make.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if that's because we we perceive our daily life as really a narrative about things.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, when I get up this morning, my first thought was, man, I've got a lot of I've got several meetings today, I've got a couple classes, I've got uh other stuff going on.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I hope I have enough energy to really make it through the day well.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think all of us do that every day.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: We we look at the day as okay, I've got to get through this day.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: What's the gonna be the story of this day?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna be a story of conflict or I'm dreading this confrontation I have or something?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder if stories are so powerful because that's really how we just perceive of our of our life as a narrative or a story.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: We don't think of our life as three points to this or three points to that.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's not how we experience reality typically.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think you're right on.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, our story, I mean, our life is a story.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think when you tell stories, you're you're hitting you're hitting on the human side of you know everything that we we try to learn.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I I think stories are real important in that in that way.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, like you say, you wake up and uh you hit the narrative and start working your way through the day, and that's life.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's life, you know.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I do want to pick your brain since you're my guest on this podcast, and it's this is really I have an evil plan with the podcast, is I have brilliant people on, so basically I can I can just learn from them.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's really what this is all about.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: My secret plan.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I would love to know how you structure your novels.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do you come up with an outline first?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Do you just start, you have an idea and then you start?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or how does that process actually work for you?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is where a lot of fiction writers and storytellers get hung up.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do they plan the whole thing in advance?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: Do they kind of plan?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Do they not plan?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you fall in that category?
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: I learned about this thing called um panters versus outliners or panters versus planners from uh Stephen King's book on writing, just what the book is actually called, on writing.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he he describes this idea, and I I think it all depends on the way your brain works.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's an individual choice.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm personally a pantser, what I would call a panther.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: I do not outline.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um there are there are novelists who outline profusely.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they've they've got the whole story down in minute detail before they even start writing the manuscript.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't do that.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um usually when I start a novel, I kind of have an end in mind.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, there's like a message that I want to end with in this novel.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and then, you know, then I'll start creating characters.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: I may have a few scenes that pop into my head, um especially the opening scene.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, any good novel starts in the middle of action.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you can't you can't have a lot of front matter or introductory information and all that.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: You have to start in the middle of action.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: And like the the first book Kintro in that that trilogy, the political thriller trilogy, the scene opens page one, a guy running down the hallway, you know, running towards a conference room to tell this project manager that their boss has just been murdered.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, like you're right in the middle of it, and that's kind of the way you have to start.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: So once once I've created and established a few characters and a few scenes, they start waking me up in the morning.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I'm when I'm heavy, heavy into writing a book, I I usually get up like four o'clock, but I'm generally awakened by one of my characters.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this may sound a little psycho, but one of my characters will wake me up with a story to tell.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I jump out of bed, go get the coffee on, hit the computer, and then I just start capturing this story as quickly as I can.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like watching a movie in my head.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it's it's kind of of a beautiful thing because you know, writer's block, I mean, I don't think it's a real thing anyway, but it it certainly never burdened me because, like I said, my characters once once I get going, my characters just don't leave me alone.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I'm a pancer.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't met I've met some outliners or planners, um, and I've heard them say, I've heard many write books about it, that you have to plan.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you pincers are missing the boat, and you know, it's it's a right versus left thing, you know, but it it really is personal preference, how your mind works, I think.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Which is it's kind of odd after 30 plus years of being a project manager.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you would think I would want to lay all that stuff out and and get it ready before I put pen to paper, but I I just let my characters tell the story.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's this theory out there that stories and ideas have a shelf life, and you know, they will come to you, and if you don't do something with them, they'll go to somebody else.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And those stories basically go away and and they're not they're not good forever.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, of course, some of that's very woo-woo and all that, and maybe new agey and all that stuff, but there is there's maybe something to that.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So as you're writing, is it more for you a process of listening to what the story is rather than creating the story?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for the most part.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, like I said, they're there the characters are leading me through the stories as I'm writing.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think of scenes uh that hadn't even occurred to me.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm in the middle of writing, and I thought, I think, oh, that's kind of a good scene.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I need to write that.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, weird things come to me, even in on the last book of that trilogy, Left Coast Left.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: I my book designer, my cover designer, he gave me a bunch of options, and one of them took my breath away.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um first it scared me.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, man, that is gonna upset some people.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: And basically, what it is is a couple jets doing a strafing run on San Francisco, and it's like, oh my goodness.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And first I thought, I can't, I can't use that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: I can't use that, and then it and then logically I started thinking, well, there it really doesn't even have anything to do with the story.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, um which most covers don't have anything to do with the book, yeah.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so, and so I started thinking, I really want this cover, I really want to use it because it is so impactful and striking, and I kept thinking, I want to use this cover.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I did then was I added a chapter with a scene that made that cover make sense, and and that was almost yeah, that was almost after the story was done, and I thought I I can weave this into where this cover makes sense, so now it does, and that's the cover I chose.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that is so cool, and it's such a good example.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love that example of how one type of art inspires something else that you're doing, you know, where the graphic side of it then inspires you creatively.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's really, really cool.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder how often that kind of thing happens in the fictional world.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it happens a lot.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: I've never personally heard of heard of it happening.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I was afraid I was doing something very odd, but then you know, as always, I decided it's my book, I can do what I want with it.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's kind of the direction I went.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and one thing that I do anyway, that most authors probably don't do, I get my book covers designed early in the process.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a little risky because I mean you could design it and then your story unfold in some weird direction that you didn't anticipate.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the, like I say, the cover doesn't even make sense anymore.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: But so it's a little risky doing that.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I find that it's motivating when I have that cover sitting in front of me.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, I gotta write this story, I gotta write.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Keeps me focused, you know.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like I say, I was almost through the first draft of the story when that when that idea came to me.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you never know.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: It also gives you some graphic assets that you can then use to promote the book long ahead of when it comes out.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now I know that some people are listening are wondering about something really specific about all this, and I'm wondering about this too.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk about how long it took you, how long it takes you on average to write a novel, and what is your process for getting it done?
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have a certain word count you do every day?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Do you get up at a certain time?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how does that process unfold for you on a practical level?
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the first book, my first novel, Strings of Faith, it actually took me 10 years to get through that.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, it was just well, it sat on the shelf most of that time, obviously.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: But these days when I start a novel, I I can usually get it done in four to six months.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it just I mean, I could get it done a lot faster than that, but I just I don't like having to be that focused every day.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I can usually in four to six months, and I the series kind of landed to where each one of those books is around 60,000 words, and um, so if you're writing fiction, I mean that you you get a pretty wide sway, I think you know, 40,000 to 120,000 for the big ones, you know.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, the massive ones, yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And Stephen King books exactly.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: The um nonfiction can be a lot smaller than that.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Nonfiction's basically as long as it takes to tell what you need to tell.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: So um not a lot of hard and fast rules there.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: I use uh I use a tool called Scrivener, and it it has some tools inside of it that lets you track that.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: So if I know I want 60,000 words, my chapters are generally 3,000 words, kind of short, just just so things move along.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can set all that up in Scrivener.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: And every day when you get up to write, as soon as you open Scriveter, it it knows you're about to write and it starts the counter and it it lets you know where you are, you know, in in your writing goals.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: You may set a goal in it for 500 words a day or a thousand words a day or whatever it is, and it'll tell you when you've gotten there.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of handy, uh, having those tools.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, I mean it's not all math, but you if you set a launch date, you kind of have to reverse engineer that to figure out how much, you know, when you have to do what, you know, when does your editor need it.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's kind of where I hit with the whole, excuse me, the whole project manager, uh, project management for writers idea and and what that new book is gonna be all about.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know how to set all that up.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, but generally, you know, 60,000 words.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: The um project management for writers is probably gonna be about 30,000 words, so it'll be considerably shorter as a nonfiction.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, talk a little bit about that, that book that you're working on, project management for writers.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love this.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what is that book going to be about, and how could writers benefit from it?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Also, when is it coming out?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm shooting for February of next year.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if things happen quicker than expected, I'll try to get it out earlier, but I'm I'm shooting at this point for like February 1st, somewhere in that area next year.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it is about the actual writing practice.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's not a book about how to get how to get a book published.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: There are plenty of those out there, and um, you know, we we both have friends that specialize in that area, how to publish a book.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: But this is more how to set up your writing practice at home.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do day in and day out to get a book written?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um, who are the experts you need to depend on?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: How do you set up your team?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: How do you set up a schedule?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: How do you set up a book proposal?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, even even if you're not gonna get traditionally published or or look for an agent, it's still a good idea to write a book proposal.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't need to be as pretty as one that you would give to an agent, but there are a lot of questions in the typical book proposal that you need to answer anyway, to write that book, and um you know, why you're gonna write it and you know who else is written on the topic, and you know, how yours is different, just things you need to think through.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll it'll talk about that book proposals, schedules, planning, uh, your team agreements, you know, how you how do you set up agreements with different vendors with the service providers you're gonna use.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just how to set up your practice into a repeatable process, you know, it's systems.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if once you get to your second book, you haven't completely forgotten what you did on your first book.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like it's not like you know you're sitting there going, I've never done this before.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes, you have, and you've probably got systems to do it.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a matter of it's a matter of thinking through all those systems and getting it nailed down.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: So the next time you open a new file to start writing a book, you know exactly what you're gonna do.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not, you know, it's not as chaotic.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Even experienced writers, you know, might be able to get organized by you know tapping into the book.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's kind of where I'm where I'm headed with it.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot wait to read this book and get my hands on it because I think it's gonna bless a whole lot of writers in a lot of different genres.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And a huge problem that we have in the writing world is just we're oftentimes just kind of disorganized with our ideas and with our workflow with the process.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So this is gonna be hugely helpful.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really glad you've tackled this.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to getting it out there.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and like I said, I was I was thinking about all those people, and we, you know, we've everybody's been told you need to write a book, or you know, you've you've sat at the Thanksgiving table saying, I need to write a book.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, everybody has all those stories in their head, but it often comes down to I don't know where to start.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, 10 years later, you're saying, I need to write a book and I don't know where to start.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I would have started.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, or I wish I would have started.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And even if you did start, uh, you know, the question comes up, what do I do next?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm I'm three quarters of the way through this draft, and I don't even know what to do with it, you know.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: But what do I do next?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um, you know, hopefully this book will address those those people and get more people writing books.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I want to do.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I also know that you are launching a podcast in the hopefully not too distant future.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Can you give us a little peek about what that podcast is about and uh all the cool things that will be involved in it?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's called It's a Writerful Life, and that whole platform will be about writing, helping writers, the um what we were just discussing, project management for writers, and you know, how how writers um or those who want to be writers can can get started and all that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna talk about the leadership, how you can learn leadership principles through writing, and um yeah, just just help people out where I can.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, after the first few episodes, and and I do have a few almost in the can, so it'll it'll be soon.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: I I hope to launch here in a week or two.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, hopefully after the first few episodes, I'll start getting questions and you know, just start taking off from there, you know, taking taking the lead.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Of the listeners to see what they want to learn about.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love it.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now you also offer some services to writers, uh, which I have done because you edited my last client book.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: You did a phenomenal job, and I've already been singing your praises to a number of other people as well.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So um, can you talk about what services you offer to writers and how they can get in touch with you to learn more about that?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, and thank you for that.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: You you you write wonderfully.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: That was a great book.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, thanks.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I uh I do I do editing.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that's that's what I do mostly.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: I also do coaching and consulting.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I just entered a consulting agreement with an author where he's not quite ready for an editor, but he just wants help, you know, uh getting getting his book put together and how to write it and you know, set up his systems and all that.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm perfectly happy to consult in that area.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you can get a hold of me through my website if you like, uh terrystafford.com.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Easy to remember, or feel free to email me directly, Terry at terrystafford.com.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: Terry, this has been a blast.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just before we kind of wrap this up, I just want to just acknowledge you and to take a moment to do that and to acknowledge the good things that you're bringing into the world for writers.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, a lot of writers feel uh discouraged, they feel stressed.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, not that 2020 has added any level of stress to anybody's life at all.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, writers and artists and creative types today uh many times just have trouble getting moving and getting going.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate your upcoming podcast, your upcoming book, your creative work through your novels, the way you helped writers, the way you helped me uh and my clients.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I foresee many of those in the future as well.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much for all the good work that you're doing.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you and your um creativity and your friendship and just being an advocate and a voice for writers.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's awesome.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for having me.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this it's been a blast.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've been looking forward to this for a long time.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I I would leave your listeners with this one piece of advice, and I talk about it a lot in my book.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: There are there are indeed a lot of things to consider uh in the publishing world, but do not forget to sit down and write.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: You have to sit down and write and don't let yourself get overwhelmed with all these wickets you have to jump through.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Write the book.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, that is such great advice because all these self-publishing courses and books and editors and graphic designers in the world will not be able to help you if you haven't actually written anything.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Terry, thanks so much.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: This has been a blast.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: You bet, Kent.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I had a blast talking with Terry, and I hope that you enjoyed this conversation as well.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: My main takeaway from this conversation is that stories are a great way to teach.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is why business fiction has exploded in the last couple of decades.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's simply because we really, really love stories.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Stories stuck us in, and stories are the main way that we process information as human beings.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: So whenever you're teaching or speaking or trying to communicate anything really, be sure to include plenty of stories and realize that storytelling is a great way to help people learn in a fun way.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, many thanks to my guest, Terry Stafford.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Make sure to check out his website at terrystafford.com.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Daily Rider Podcast.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you could leave us to review in iTunes, it helps a great deal.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: And if you know of anyone who would enjoy these episodes, please go ahead and share it with them.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Your one act of generosity might just change their life.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change lives.