Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #25 - Permaculture Design Secrets | Michael Wardle [Savour Soil Permaculture]

Transcript

#25 - Permaculture Design Secrets | Michael Wardle [Savour Soil Permaculture] · The Shed Organics Show

0:00
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Shared
0:04
Organics show. My name is Jordan and today I'm
0:09
joined by another fascinating guest by the name of Michael
0:13
Wardle. Now you may know Michael already
0:16
as he is a prominent educator and figure in the permaculture
0:21
space. He runs Saver Soil Permaculture
0:24
and has delivered quite a few PDC courses, permaculture design
0:30
certificates or courses and runs plenty of workshops on how to
0:35
grow food. How to best manage your space,
0:38
your land, and turn it into a thriving permaculture landscape
0:43
that you can use, that's most productive for you and what your
0:46
needs are. So today we talk all about
0:51
Michael's experience in design from totally different
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environments, different spaces and different clients all over
0:59
not only Queensland but the world in which he has travelled
1:03
and done certain things. So it was really cool to catch
1:05
up with Michael. I'm a big fan of what he does
1:08
and I very much look up to him as an educator and as somebody
1:12
who is creating a voice in this space.
1:14
So for me, it was super selfish to be able to dive in and ask
1:17
all of those questions that I really wanted to know.
1:20
But I'm sure there is so much value that you are going to get
1:24
from this conversation as well. So without further ado, as we
1:29
always do, let's jump straight in to the conversation.
1:33
Here is Michael Wardle from Saver Soil Permaculture.
1:54
Interesting enough, where I start is actually with the
1:57
client, but I also look at the local landscape.
2:00
So permaculture design is not about giving a client what they
2:03
want. It's about understanding that
2:06
what is the client's need. So understanding what their
2:08
context is and then looking at the land context and try to
2:12
marry the two together. Think of it like Maslow's
2:14
hierarchy of needs. If you can't, if you, once
2:16
you've hit one layer, you can't, you can't move on until you fill
2:19
those different niches. And so understanding the
2:22
client's context, for example, and they might want, you know,
2:25
they might have their needs list, their wants list and their
2:27
wish list. And, but looking at the land and
2:30
then seeing what is viable for that particular site, you know,
2:35
while we all have these utopic dreams, the idea is that it
2:38
needs to be doable. It needs to be real.
2:40
And so as I'm arriving on a site, I'll, you know, I'll
2:43
arrive a little bit early and I'll drive around or I'll walk
2:45
around depending on where the client is, whether it's an urban
2:47
landscape or a rural landscape. And I'll go and see what's going
2:50
on as far as the trees and the grasses and the soils are
2:53
concerned. And, you know, really gives me a
2:55
good hands on with regards to what the landscape is doing and
2:58
telling me. And that gives me a starting
3:00
point for that succession. And it's not to say it can't
3:03
stay that way. Like I ran a food a food forest
3:05
workshop up near Woodford on last Saturday.
3:08
And, you know, there was actually a really great example
3:11
of how naturally in the landscape that what just by
3:13
reading and I was pointing it out to the participants that
3:15
it's transitioning from a dryschloroform to a
3:18
wetschloroform forest. But it was naturally happening.
3:21
And it's like just by going out and observing and looking at,
3:24
you know, you start with the eucalypt and then you go to the
3:26
crows ash. But in the crows ash there is a,
3:29
there's a, a strangler fig that's starting to grow within
3:31
that and you're sort of seeing this transition over like a 400
3:34
year period. And that is telling you.
3:37
And so therefore, OK, if that's where it's heading towards, if
3:40
this is where it was, this is where it's heading towards.
3:43
Looking at this installation of a food forest on this slope,
3:46
then we can by reading that landscape, looking at the
3:49
contours, aligning over to the needs of the client.
3:52
And then we can put something in place that will actually help
3:55
work with what is already there. Not trying to force a function
3:59
on a landscape. One of the biggest problems, you
4:02
know, don't you never fight the site ever.
4:06
You know, you, you, it's, and it's same with regards to soils,
4:09
because I know you've got a little bit of passion for soils
4:11
as well and tying that into climate.
4:13
So it's the soils behave differently in different climate
4:16
zones. And so there's no
4:18
one-size-fits-all strategy. So understanding the climate,
4:20
understanding what that is, where that sits in succession,
4:24
and then aligning that to the needs of the client.
4:26
Because if you align it to the needs of the client or you know,
4:30
you create a situation where they're both working together,
4:33
then the client will want to look after it.
4:35
It doesn't become a chore. It doesn't become work if you
4:38
just look at it solely from. And that's where it makes it
4:40
sustainable because you know, everyone's really enthused at
4:43
the start. They dive in, they're happy to
4:46
put the trees in the ground. But realistically, it's the
4:48
five, it's the 10 years from now that makes it work.
4:51
And if it's still thriving and abundant and meeting those needs
4:54
in two years time, I usually give it about a two year window.
4:58
Then everything is spot on. The money.
5:00
If there's frustrations or there's something, then
5:03
something was missed. And that's when you've got to go
5:05
back and start tweaking and and reworking it because, you know,
5:08
context changes and land changes and yeah.
5:11
Yeah, that's such a good point, mate.
5:12
I I really like how you said noticing what's happening with
5:16
the land already and the progression that it's making,
5:19
because if you're picking plant species that are trying to
5:24
direct it in a different way, then you are working against
5:28
what's already happening and it's not going to go as well as
5:31
it could. And it's probably going to make
5:32
more maintenance, more work, and as you say, fighting the system.
5:36
So when you're having a look at these systems and you're kind of
5:39
working out all right, it's I've got an arid dry system, but I
5:44
want to have a really lush sort of food forest type situation.
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I'm going to have to work that succession up to it.
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I can't just go and plant a whole bunch of things out in
5:54
this arid environment that's going to get beaten down by the
5:57
sun. I need to work my way up using
6:00
different species to try and build that kind of condition.
6:06
I'm thinking towards the lines of like our natural role of
6:10
weeds that come in to transform the land and how often.
6:15
Like, I'm not sure how much you know of Graham Sate and his
6:20
nutrition farming. His, his philosophy where he,
6:24
he's spoken about how these weeds are almost like signposts
6:28
for what's going on in the land and in the soil and how we can
6:32
read what's happening with what species are coming up and how
6:36
that's working towards the progression.
6:38
How much of that is in your thoughts when you're thinking
6:40
about that kind of thing, looking at plant species and and
6:44
that sort of thing? Yeah, listen, absolutely.
6:46
I actually wrote, wrote a whole series of blog posts many years
6:48
ago called Weedy Wednesday. I used to release them
6:51
everywhere. It's like, this is the weed, but
6:52
this is what it's telling you. Yeah.
6:53
And so, you know, it's on the website, but you know, they are
6:58
a language for us to understand. And it's not just about whether
7:00
a weed is, it's not really a weed, it's a plant.
7:03
And it's a it's, it's telling us a story.
7:04
And so we can look at that and actually start reading it and,
7:08
and building that. But also, you know, if you're on
7:10
an arid site and you want to build a food forest, you know,
7:12
sometimes the answer's no. And that's OK.
7:16
The land can't support it. It might be in succession.
7:19
It the, the, the highest, it's going to get us a Savannah
7:21
landscape because that's where it's sitting.
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And it's like, right, great, awesome.
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That's what you aim for. If you try to go further, it's
7:29
not that you can't, but the amount of energy that you need
7:31
to put into that system to kick it over is exponential.
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And then you go to what, you know, what's the cost?
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There's always a cost, whether it be financial or resource base
7:39
or personal or whatever else. What is the cost that it's going
7:43
to be? So understand, not everything
7:45
wants to be a forest. Yes, yes, you know.
7:47
And, and even in that, like in an arid landscape, for example,
7:51
when you're talking soils, soil nutrition doesn't cycle below
7:55
ground like a lot of us talk about with regards to, you know,
7:58
soils and that sort of thing. It doesn't cycle below ground in
8:00
an arid landscape. It cycles through the guts of an
8:02
animal. Yes.
8:04
Wow. So because you know, it's, it's
8:06
dry, it's a lot, not a huge amount of moisture, the way the
8:10
soil breathes with the cracking and all sorts of other stuff as
8:13
well. But then as it's consumed by the
8:15
animal, it's almost turned into soil within 12 hours as it comes
8:18
out the other end. And that's how it's cycling
8:20
through moving through the landscape.
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And it's not just, I'm not talking ruminant animals, I'm
8:23
talking all animals. So even if you go into a dry
8:25
chloroform forest, for example, you look at the flowers on those
8:29
trees, they're huge, they're big, they're beautiful.
8:32
What they do is inviting bats and birds and all sorts of other
8:35
stuff to come in to cycle that nutrient.
8:38
And, you know, so again, understanding what the species
8:41
in the different zones are doing and how that nutrient is cycling
8:44
through those zones so you can maximize the benefit for minimal
8:48
effort. That's that's great.
8:50
Yeah, you're right. And the, it's like almost like a
8:54
technology that nature is developed where they'll kind of
8:58
use these things like the pretty flowers or the smells of the
9:01
pollen. They'll lure these certain
9:03
animals in and then they're getting this symbiotic
9:07
relationship. So they're giving something to
9:09
receive something and, and vice versa.
9:12
And these these incredible cycles that then work off each
9:15
other. How much, how much of that are
9:19
you trying to use and think about when you're designing a
9:22
space and how and presumably you're, you're looking at nature
9:27
as a whole and thinking, OK, these animals work in this way.
9:31
So if we're incorporating any livestock into the situation,
9:34
then they're going to help with this XYZ insects trying to
9:37
attract certain insects beneficials into the environment
9:40
because they're going to do XYZ things in the soil.
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How much of that is at the forefront of your thinking when
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designing? Yeah, absolutely.
9:49
But, you know, it's not just about that.
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I always start with, believe it or not, the aphid, the aphid is
9:54
my favorite insect. Really.
9:55
Yeah, I know. Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah. And it's, it's a little
9:58
controversial in some circles, but, you know, an aphid is a
10:02
keystone species. You know, it is a foundational
10:05
food source with for so many other species.
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If you were to take the aphid out of the system, and even if
10:11
it's like, you know, it's like, no, no, I just want it out of
10:13
the garden, then you're excluding something from your
10:15
garden. It's not a pest, it's an insect.
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You know, it's like, OK, it has a role to play.
10:21
The problem tends to be is when it's out of balance and it's not
10:24
necessarily just through a lack of beneficial.
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And so like you can't won't have the good bugs without the bad
10:29
bugs. It's like you won't have the
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good biology in the soil without some bad biology in the soil.
10:34
So if you so you focus soling on that idea of being good as it
10:39
were, then you're missing out on a good 41% of the conversation.
10:43
You know, there's so much more out there.
10:45
And so when I'm looking at it going in and designing a site, I
10:48
design for the aphid, but I design for plant nutrition.
10:53
I design, you know, so it's not just the beneficial insects.
10:55
It's like, how are we going to fill the bucket?
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So therefore you're familiar with Graham's work.
10:59
So how are we going to fill the bucket?
11:01
So therefore the plant is healthy and therefore it's going
11:04
to be more pest resistant naturally because of higher Brix
11:07
levels and other things as well. There's a lot that goes into
11:10
that and, and the more we do that.
11:13
And then of course you add the layer of the flowers with the
11:15
beneficial insects, but then you also add the plants that will
11:20
actually pest repellent. So it's another part of that
11:24
conversation. And then how are we going to
11:26
cycle nutrition inside that climate zone using other plants
11:30
or animals and then slowly creeping it in rather than, and
11:34
I know, you know, some people like turnkey solutions like they
11:38
want to get, we're not planning it all out.
11:39
They want to look after it. You know, these systems evolved
11:43
naturally over. And it's not, not 50 years, it's
11:46
it's, it's 1000 years. Yeah.
11:48
And while we are speeding up succession, I I was saying last
11:52
Saturday, but you know, one tree a week is still 52 trees at the
11:55
end of the year. Yeah, yeah.
11:57
Incredible. Slowly but surely adding layers
12:01
into your system and after three years you look at it and go when
12:05
the hell did that happen? You know, it just goes boom and
12:08
it's so full of life. There was one.
12:10
I was out there recently. It was a past client and I was
12:13
out there. We were just went out to visit
12:15
as I was driving by and we went walking through the system.
12:19
It was put in 2 1/2 years ago. Now, you know, one of the Peach
12:22
trees, for example, is now more than twice my height, and that
12:25
was 2 1/2 years ago. And the system is completely
12:27
full of not just the, you know, OK, there were some pests, but
12:30
for the most part, it was the beneficial insects.
12:32
The small birds were so full of life.
12:35
That's amazing. And there was very little pest
12:37
pressure, there was very little nutritional issues, and that's
12:40
only after 2 1/2 years. Yeah, goodness.
12:43
Yeah, and it's, and it's, and the amount of food that's coming
12:46
out of it. I mean, you know, once they
12:47
quipped that, you know, they spent more time in the kitchen
12:49
preserving than than than spending time doing anything
12:52
else because there was so much coming out of the garden.
12:54
But you know, that's that's the way it should be.
12:57
Yeah, exactly. And that's then where we can go
12:59
and share and spread it with our communities and things like this
13:03
and why food scarcity shouldn't necessarily be a problem that
13:07
we're facing. I want to touch on a little bit
13:10
more about that designing for the aphid scenario, OK, I want
13:15
to understand that a little bit more because I love how you've,
13:20
how you've put that. Because I, I encourage people to
13:26
not be scared of things like aphids and to have certain
13:30
plants or areas where populations of these things can,
13:33
can be quite happy because that does balance out the ecosystem.
13:37
It allows the other things that are going to eat those aphids
13:40
like your ladybugs, whatever it might be, to come in and thrive
13:43
and be part of the garden as well.
13:45
Because you can, you can go in with a whole bunch of neem spray
13:48
or whatever it is and eradicate all of these things and then
13:51
you're just not doing yourself any favors.
13:53
So if you can give them maybe a trap plant or a a certain area
13:57
where they can just quite happily be, then you're going to
13:59
balance it out. And as you say that the insects
14:03
themselves are how somewhat decomposes, if you might agree
14:09
with something like that. And how I like the work of
14:15
Doctor Phil Callahan, or he might not be a doctor, but he's,
14:18
he talked about the the infrared signals that get sent off from
14:22
plants that are unhealthy and the decomposing insects can
14:28
sense that and come down and wipe them out.
14:32
So if you don't have the right nutrition, strong cell walls, as
14:36
we're talking about with these types of things that don't allow
14:39
these aphids to come in and we've got this natural
14:42
resilience to pests. Tell me a little bit about that
14:47
kind of process of designing for the aphid because we do want
14:52
resilient plants. Yes, but how are you, What are
14:56
you thinking about? What is the aphid thinking about
14:58
that you can then bring into the system and give them?
15:02
Yeah, channel the aphid, you know, you know, coming in and,
15:05
you know, First off, identifying like it may not be an aphid, it
15:07
could be anything, you know, but ident going and doing a site
15:11
assessment to see what's actually going on there.
15:13
And that's not just on the plants and the soils, but have a
15:15
look at the birds, have a look at the, you know, have a look at
15:18
the insects. There was one I was working on
15:21
maybe eight years ago. I'd have to look it up like it
15:24
was a really mature forest, but when I started to walk through
15:27
there was not one insect. Wow.
15:29
Not one. And so there was not one insect.
15:32
And then because what got me first, there was no bird.
15:34
I couldn't hear bird noise. And I'm like, what's going on?
15:38
And then I started looking around, couldn't find any ants,
15:41
couldn't find any flying ants, couldn't find anything.
15:43
And we're like, OK, but when we did the soil analysis, we found
15:46
that there was actually some elements missing in the soil,
15:49
which in turn was affecting the trees, which in turn affect
15:51
flowering, which in turn, which in turn, which in turn.
15:54
And so it was like it was a simple amendment that needed to
15:57
go in that actually introduced some missing micronutrients into
16:01
that system that in turn started to feed through.
16:04
And it did take a couple of years, but eventually it became
16:08
bioavailable within the plants themselves.
16:10
And then the system naturally started to fix itself.
16:12
So, you know, good design is obvious, great design that
16:15
however, is transparent. You know, it happens just
16:17
naturally and you don't see huge swells on the landscape or
16:20
whatever else. It just, it just naturally ticks
16:22
over. And that's what we're aiming
16:24
for. So when I'm looking at a site to
16:26
see designing for the aphid, what is that basic successional
16:29
level where it's at? What is the site telling me
16:32
where it's going to be heading towards and then looking at what
16:36
the client is looking for? And it, like I said, sometimes I
16:38
have to say, no, I said, you know, I listen, it's either, you
16:42
know, we can make adjustments, but the land is saying this, not
16:46
this. And that's a different
16:47
conversation. But yeah, so still looking at
16:51
the soil and there's no one-size-fits-all assessing the
16:54
soil as the first part as far as thinking of an aphid, because
16:58
again, like you said, nutrition. So, you know, looking at soil
17:01
structure, life in the soil, life on the soil, you know, what
17:08
is the nutrient availability within the soil as well?
17:11
Australians have got very old Leech soils that we didn't have
17:14
the last Ice Age. We missed out on a lot of things
17:16
as well. We're dealing with that today.
17:18
It's also has a poop problem after the death of the
17:20
megafauna, you know, 15,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago,
17:23
whatever it was. But so there's lots of issues
17:26
that have cycled through that and we're dealing with that now.
17:29
Plus you add 200 years of strip mining and pollution and you
17:36
know even something as simple as what is it, fire ants?
17:41
Yeah, you know. In the rural areas, yeah, in
17:44
rural areas, they've been aerial baiting for fire ants for years
17:47
now. When I lived in the Lacquer
17:48
Valley, you know, when the when the banks were first introduced,
17:51
they said, oh, no, it doesn't affect anything else except fire
17:53
ants. And it's like, you know, it's,
17:54
it's an insect Anyway, after, after, it's like I started
17:58
observing after every time the, the helicopters went over, there
18:00
was a massive effect in my system.
18:03
I had no control where those bases landed.
18:05
So, and that's where it's like, well, OK, start watching the
18:07
life cycle of these things and where does it start?
18:10
And you know, the pests always, well, the, the iphids and what
18:13
we normally call pests is it affects us.
18:15
It's not so much the ecosystem arrived 1st and then it's
18:18
usually about two to three weeks later the beneficial started.
18:21
So it's like, well, how can we encourage that?
18:23
All right, let's start looking at bringing in stuff that's
18:25
going to be habitat for these species for the beneficial.
18:29
So therefore, when it happens, they're naturally already here
18:31
and then it's just slowly building.
18:34
Traditionally, for me anyway, if I can, I try and start with the
18:38
support species before I go to the production species.
18:42
A lot of people go straight for production because they want the
18:44
fruit and whatever else. And there are times I do that as
18:45
well. You know, every site's
18:47
different, but for the most part, start with the support
18:50
species and spend a good 12 months setting that up because
18:53
then your allies are in place. Yeah, that's right.
18:55
And you've got everything you need for those.
18:57
Then fruit trees and things like that to absolutely thrive when
19:00
they're coming through. They've got all the.
19:02
Right. Veggie patch.
19:03
Yeah, Yeah. You know, you're setting up all
19:04
those, all the support species around where your veggie patch
19:07
is going to go. And then when you start putting
19:08
it in and then, you know, the cabbage moth arrives and then
19:11
that ferry ring ducks out and gets it done.
19:13
You know, it's sort of if you're watching that play happen in
19:17
real time because you've set it up in the first place.
19:20
Yeah, very, very true. Talking about our soils that we
19:26
find commonly here in Australia, and I want to try and focus more
19:30
so on Queensland just for this specific example.
19:34
And what you've seen in your experience, what are some of the
19:38
things that we're typically missing in our soils here in
19:42
Queensland and what are some of the easy things that we can do
19:46
to rectify that? Every Believe it or not, that's
19:50
actually a hard question to answer.
19:53
We've moved so much soil. Right.
19:56
You know, so you know, you get a truckload of soil in from
19:58
somewhere for your garden. Where does it come?
20:00
From well, yeah, who knows where it when?
20:02
Phil When Phil? Yeah.
20:03
But when Phil has come in from your site to fill the site for a
20:06
building, where does it come from?
20:08
You know, we have moved so much soil, which it's, it's more than
20:13
what was moved in the last Ice Age.
20:14
It's massive, so to say. What is the base soil type?
20:17
It's actually really difficult to say that now because while it
20:19
might be 3 or 4 meters down on the top layer, it could be
20:23
something completely different. There was a site I was working
20:25
on and we dug A trench as you do you dig a hole?
20:29
But we got an excavator in to do it and it was several meters
20:31
deep and there were three distinct layers of soil profile
20:36
and it wasn't even the native soil.
20:38
Wow. And each of these layers was
20:40
probably 60cm deep goodness. So three lots of soil had been
20:47
introduced from somewhere else. And then there was the native
20:50
layer underneath that. So you're dealing, you're
20:51
dealing with a whole massive history.
20:55
And that's where for me professionally, when I'm coming
20:57
in to do this stuff, you know, doing some soil testing is
21:00
really important because what, what soil is it?
21:02
Where does it come from? And then when some soils mix
21:06
different soil types depending on where they're coming from, it
21:08
can come up with like a slightly toxic combination.
21:11
Not because anything has been introduced, just because of
21:13
where that, you know, normally they would never have naturally
21:16
met and they have done and there's some, some, some sort of
21:19
reaction that's happened within that.
21:21
So when you're looking at some of the larger stuff, yeah, it's,
21:23
it's hard to say what are the common problems because, well, I
21:26
guess the big problem is the movement of soil.
21:28
Yeah, Yeah. Well, that's AI, had not even
21:30
thought of that. You're right though, because you
21:32
do bring in a whole bunch of bill from different places and
21:36
topsoil and you try and obviously people try and get
21:39
good quality wherever they can, but it creates a totally
21:42
different. Yeah, all cheap.
21:44
Yeah, that's a big one I see a lot.
21:45
Where do I get the cheapest soil?
21:46
Listen, you don't want cheap soil.
21:47
Yeah, you want good soil. Exactly.
21:49
You want actual. You want soil, not dirt.
21:52
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
21:53
Yeah. So what about, OK, let let me
21:56
give you something specific then what about how clay soils, OK,
22:00
so a lot of us are battling relatively heavy clay soils.
22:05
What are some of the the fixes or things that you would look to
22:11
to start planting in clay soils to help you get you on your way
22:16
to a more balanced kind of environment?
22:20
Listen, I would build up. Yeah.
22:23
So not dig down build up because when you're dealing with clay.
22:25
So no, again, not knowing specifics, you know, different
22:29
areas around even to Southeast Queensland, the clay, the clay
22:33
layer could be very different. You know, some of it can be acid
22:36
sulfate soils and some of it can be, you know that heavy, heavy
22:39
dark clay soils without knowing what you're dealing with the
22:42
Tata Tata to give a straight answer.
22:44
But when the the I guess the go to for that would be building
22:48
up. Yeah, OK.
22:49
And in and inoculating that build up with the biology that
22:53
that you want. So whether you want, whether you
22:56
purchase it or learn to brew it yourself, I brew a lot myself
22:59
and then allow the biology to do the work to slowly break it up
23:02
and get into that. And it might take, you know, it
23:04
might take 12 months to get a really good Lamy soil.
23:06
And it's not to say you you're not planting or anything in it.
23:09
You might do a start with a cover crop like you, you work
23:12
with succession, you start with your annuals moving through.
23:15
We can speed things up certain ways.
23:17
Like one of the best combinations I've ever used with
23:20
regards to sort of no dig gardening in a especially
23:22
building a forest environment is wood chip if it was available
23:27
mixed with coffee grounds. Yeah, right.
23:29
Yeah. You know, Coffee Grounds has got
23:31
such a high nutrient content and we're breathing, you know,
23:34
bacteria and fungi in now. It's just it, it can't colonize
23:37
us. Yes, well, hopefully it won't
23:39
colonize you otherwise it caused all sorts of other issues.
23:42
But it won't, you know, don't it doesn't colonize us because it
23:45
doesn't have the right habitat. So, you know, Coffee Grounds has
23:48
got so much nutrient in it when you mix it with the carbon
23:50
source that's got a high Ligdon content like woodchip for
23:52
example, and then you just wet it down and leave it.
23:56
It's amazing what can happen within six months.
23:58
Yeah, so true. I've definitely heard of people
24:00
just using wood chip and just literally dropping it on a on a
24:03
site and it turns to incredible soil underneath.
24:07
But mixing it with coffee grounds makes sense because
24:09
you're somewhat balancing that out into the right ratios.
24:12
Carbon, nitrogen ratios, yeah. Exactly.
24:14
And and fungi, a lot of the fungi that you know, OK, that
24:18
that that will really get things moving are attracted coffee
24:20
grounds. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:21
And you're right. Because one thing that I'm
24:25
talking about lots at the moment is developing that natural
24:29
resistance to pests to help people because get away from
24:32
using intervention style approaches with the IPM and, and
24:35
coming in with sprays and all sorts that we don't want to be
24:38
using. So I'm talking about, well, I'm
24:41
trying to help people with more so the availability of things
24:44
like calcium in the soil. And I've noticed that and learnt
24:49
that a strong fungal component in your soil is really good for
24:55
holding on to that calcium and not having it to, to leach out
24:59
and, and to make it more plant available.
25:01
So that's why I try and encourage people to use things
25:04
like your mycorrhizal fungi and try and encourage those things
25:07
into your soils. So that's where having things
25:10
like those just laying it down on top, building up the organic
25:14
matter, building up the fungi and diversity of microbes and
25:19
all of these types of things, you're going to get a fast track
25:22
to that kind of nice source structure that we're after,
25:25
aren't we? Yeah, and you're also working
25:27
with climate too. So in a tropical subtropical
25:29
climate, nutrient cycles on the surface, it doesn't cycle again
25:32
underground. So you're looking at like, think
25:34
of a rainforest. Where's all the organic matter?
25:36
Where's all the cycling? It's up in the trees, it's up
25:38
above the ground. It's not in the ground.
25:39
I mean, nature will slowly, you know, move it through weather,
25:42
through earthworms, but they're still coming up to grab it to
25:45
pull it in, you know, in if you, if you bury it in the ground,
25:48
which is more temperate climate sort of scenario, you know,
25:51
that's you're looking at cycling in a subtropical tropical
25:53
environment is more than 9010. So 90 above ground, 10 below
25:56
ground in a temperate environment, it's more 40 above
25:59
ground, 60 below ground. And so you've putting it on the
26:02
surface, you're actually working with climate when you start.
26:05
If you're working down in a more temperate climate, so a cool
26:08
temperate climate, you want to try and get that organic matter
26:11
and, and nutrients below ground so the worms can actually start
26:14
doing the job in the ground rather than on the surface.
26:17
Because if it's just on the surface, it's not going to be
26:19
cycling properly. So bringing in different tools.
26:23
Yeah. And that was like I said,
26:24
there's a couple of sites I'm working on in South QLD, SE
26:27
Queensland that while they are in a high rainfall subtropical
26:31
area, because of the elevation and the soil profile, it would,
26:34
it's actually considered an arid.
26:36
So to start those projects off, we had to, we couldn't bring
26:39
animals onto the site, but we had to.
26:40
So what would an animal do? And then we had to behave like
26:43
that animal, mimic the animal on the landscape, so we could
26:47
actually start moving things forward.
26:50
The amount of times I've had clients who've, who've contacted
26:52
me to come in because it's like they've followed all the
26:54
gardening advice and, and you know, they've, they've done all
26:56
the forums and none of it was working.
26:58
And we got on site and looked at it and said, that's because
27:00
you're an arid site. And we just shifted it to a
27:03
different way of thinking. And the next thing you know,
27:05
things started to move and it was just that that understanding
27:09
of what exactly their site was. Yeah, very true.
27:13
It does take a a fair bit of understanding and how well, how
27:19
much time are you spending observing the the area that
27:23
you're going to be working in or designing?
27:25
Because my first thought when somebody might get some property
27:31
under their belt. And you know, I'm sure we've all
27:34
been bitten by this bug, but you just want to go nuts and just
27:37
plan everything and just go to town straight away as soon as
27:39
you arrive and you land on site. But I imagine there's a load of
27:44
benefit to observing the site under multiple different seasons
27:49
and conditions like heavy rains, high winds, you know, drought
27:54
conditions and seeing how the land operates naturally.
27:59
So before you make your decisions, how much of that
28:02
information are you trying to gather and how much observation
28:05
are you trying to make? Listen, I've also got the
28:08
advantage I've been doing this for more than a decade.
28:09
So too, so in lots of different areas.
28:11
So sometimes I can actually make some decisions pretty quickly
28:14
now because I've worked in lots and lots of different areas and
28:16
I've got lots of data to back me up as well.
28:18
But you know, if you just, you know, take it the low tech
28:21
approach, listen, observe it for a, for a, for a, not just, you
28:24
know, 1, you know, one or two seasons, but observe it for at
28:26
least a year. But that doesn't mean you can't
28:28
do anything. You know you're plant, you can
28:30
still plant your support species and identify some areas and you
28:33
know your natives and other stuff as well to get things
28:35
moving, but there's an awful, a lot of awful amount, a lot of
28:40
data online. OK, cool.
28:42
You know, that, you know, within, like if I'm going to a
28:45
new area, which, you know, sometimes I'll get a call out,
28:48
it's like, it's like, oh, I've never been there before.
28:49
This is going to be a challenge. But there's a massive amount of
28:52
information online. If you've got the right programs
28:55
and subscriptions, you know, of course you've got to pay for
28:57
them, but you can draw a, a, you know, 120 years worth of data
29:02
that you can actually in turn. Yeah, it's massive.
29:04
It's huge that you can go through and then pick, look at
29:08
what you're, what you need to find to be able to help make
29:11
decisions to move forward. And while you don't get
29:13
everything, there's also, there's also patterns that, that
29:16
we ourselves as a species work towards and like.
29:19
So I know the averages with regards to water usages across
29:23
SE Queensland, across Queensland and across Australia.
29:25
I know the grey water usages. I know.
29:27
So I can start I could start with those averages and then
29:30
when I start working with the client specific we can narrow
29:33
that down from patterns to detail.
29:35
OK, that's very interesting. So yeah, I would recommend,
29:39
well, I'm going to do it myself is check out some more of these
29:41
resources because I know that you can check out like, you
29:45
know, topography, rainfall amounts, you can see sunlight
29:50
and which areas and where the sun's going to be tracking and
29:53
all of this type of thing. So that's really easy.
29:55
And a lot. There's a lot of that
29:56
information that's free that's really about through bomb, you
29:59
know, through the bomb websites. But sometimes those weather
30:02
stations are nowhere near like for example, if you want those
30:04
stuff for Buna, the closest weather station I've got is by
30:07
desert. It's nowhere near it.
30:08
So that you've got to take it with a grain of salt.
30:12
But also, you know, there's stuff with regards to like a
30:14
Queensland globe, for example, with regards to a lot of
30:16
information as far as you know, the, the, the land form and, and
30:22
legal overlays and all that sort of stuff as well.
30:24
It's all on there. Free available online.
30:27
State government stamps also. That's really awesome.
30:31
OK, well, great resource. Let's touch on the differences
30:36
that you find challenges and things like this between a rural
30:42
setting and an inner city setting because there might be
30:46
more and more people that are being, I guess, caught up in
30:51
this permaculture wave that we're starting to see and it's
30:54
becoming a bit of a buzzword. How do you approach like an
30:59
inner city or a very dense suburban area compared to rural?
31:06
And just to give you a little bit of context on what I'm
31:09
thinking is that you would be battling, for instance, like I
31:13
live on a main road and there's huge amounts of traffic, traffic
31:19
pollution, you know, people littering, even I get like lots
31:25
of rappers that end up in my front lawn and things like this.
31:29
Not ideal. So how, how are you battling
31:32
some of the elements that you find in your cities versus
31:35
probably something that's much more naturally flowing out in a
31:39
rural area? Well, I mean, people who people
31:43
who sort of goes by those different, those properties are
31:45
looking for different things to start with.
31:47
So, you know, those that sort of want the larger property, even
31:49
if it's just a lifestyle block or something they're looking
31:51
for. I don't like the term, but a
31:52
level of self-sufficiency of some sort.
31:54
They want to be able to grow a lot of stuff where in a city
31:57
it's usually for work or more of that social side of things.
32:01
And so permaculture just doesn't just cover with regards to
32:03
growing a food. It also looks at social systems
32:06
and, and as well as healing and, and production and recreation
32:10
and social and as well as environmental and education.
32:12
So we're looking at a holistic approach rather than just one
32:15
particular thing. Identify if it's an urban
32:18
environment. I'd really focus in on how much
32:20
time do they have available? Don't know what they want to
32:24
grow. How much time have they got
32:25
available? Because it's easy to go, like
32:27
you said, it's easy to go hard. You plant everything out really
32:30
fast and I want to do this. And then before you know it,
32:33
you're, you're spending all your time in your garden.
32:35
You've got no time for anything else because you've planted too
32:37
much or you've done too much or whatever else.
32:38
And you know, there's other ways to do it as well.
32:41
I mean, I teach a course, it's over 3 days and it's pretty
32:45
intensive with regards to growing food.
32:47
And one of the things we we talk about is, you know, how much
32:50
time have you got available? But also understand you don't
32:54
have to do it all yourself. Yes.
32:56
You know, typically there's usually about 20 to 26 people in
32:59
A room. And so you're looking at, well
33:01
said, look at that. Say we got 20.
33:02
And it's like you will, if everyone here grew 5 different
33:05
things, that's 100 different things that are available.
33:08
Yeah. Rather than focus on trying to
33:11
grow at all, you grow tomatoes really, really well.
33:14
I grow cabbages really, really well.
33:19
Yeah, but trade and let's get let's.
33:22
Get Let's get a little bit of a, a crop swap in space rather than
33:26
but The thing is that with some of those crop spots that I
33:28
visited as well, and this, this is not a critique in any way,
33:30
but you know, everyone's growing silver beets.
33:32
So all the silver beets ready at the same time.
33:33
So everyone comes with silver beet or everyone comes with or
33:36
everyone comes with. It's like diversify your crops.
33:38
Yes. That way when you come there is,
33:41
there is definite trade and there's definite that social
33:43
atmosphere. So you're not just designing the
33:45
ecological because you're with regards to what you're growing
33:47
in the ground and the food sources, but you're also design
33:49
instantly, designing the social into it as well.
33:51
Yeah, I really like. That human connection.
33:55
Yes, I think that's so important and especially for our built up
33:59
cities and communities where we are like, you know, you barely
34:03
know your neighbors in some of these instances, which is really
34:06
sad. How do you just a a question on
34:10
that? How do you see that sort of
34:12
thing coming into our lives? Because I, like you try and
34:17
promote that type of thing, like growing, sharing, swapping, all
34:21
of that type of thing. And we've seen it work for
34:24
millennia like it used to work like that.
34:27
How, how do you see that working in our our cities?
34:30
And what sort of problems do you do you reckon we face?
34:34
I think like it could work, but it takes work, you know, and
34:38
that's the thing. And usually it's driven by, for
34:42
the minute anyway, in a lot of areas, it's driven by one or
34:44
two, maybe three people or a small committed group of
34:46
individuals to make it happen. But it actually takes community
34:49
to make it work. So, you know, having it fun and
34:52
interactive, but also there's the chance on the other side of
34:54
the coin, there's the chance of burnout because those people
34:57
that, and I've seen it time again, I've had a lot of friends
34:58
who've burned out doing that because, you know, it was really
35:01
active involved in the moment they went, listen, I can't do
35:03
this anymore, I need a break. Then next thing you know, it's
35:06
all gone. And so, yeah, but also it's easy
35:11
it there's a level of convenience in just popping into
35:13
the shop. So that's sort of the, the other
35:14
side of the coin that we're, we're dealing with.
35:16
But the current cost of living crisis that we're dealing with,
35:19
you know, prices have gone up 3040% on a lot of things and you
35:23
know, people can't afford. And it's like, you know what,
35:25
you can do this at home very simply.
35:27
And it doesn't take a lot and you don't have to.
35:29
And just it's the same to people.
35:31
You don't have to grow at all. And all of a sudden, you just
35:33
see relief on their face because they feel they've got to do it
35:37
all. It's like, no, you don't, all
35:39
right, but let's focus on what is of value to you and your
35:42
family, whether it be monetary value or health or whatever
35:46
else. And then let's grow that so you
35:48
can support yourself with that and start there.
35:51
And then maybe slowly but surely add little bit by little bit and
35:55
understanding the limits of the site because suburban areas, so
35:58
a lot of suburban blocks are anywhere between 300 and, you
36:01
know, 800 squares now. And you can do stuff, but you
36:04
can't do it all. Yeah.
36:06
You can't plant every tree. You can't.
36:09
There's a lot you can't do. If it's not.
36:11
You can't do. Exactly.
36:12
And if it knocks a little bit off your grocery bill or or
36:15
something and, and you can then provide little extras to your
36:19
neighbors or something and to your family, then that helps
36:22
everybody. And then more people get excited
36:24
by it because they can do it. It's only a small manageable
36:27
amount and they can work this the way way up with it.
36:31
There's a. Even here, you know, I've got,
36:34
I've got a little bit. I've got 3 meters of balcony
36:36
garden. I'm in a rental, I've got a
36:38
biponic shoes downstairs and there was an old garden bed that
36:41
I've converted into a herb guard that's producing everything I
36:44
need. Yeah, awesome.
36:45
You know, you don't need a lot of space to do this stuff.
36:48
It's a bit of an illusion that we need to have acres and acres
36:50
and acres to do it. It's just about being strategic.
36:52
Yeah, I've seen, I've seen a couple of photos progress over
36:56
your of your balcony garden from when it was like I saw when you
36:59
originally posted and it was quite small.
37:01
And then it'd just like blame gotten enormous out of all of
37:05
these pots. And you know, you just like you
37:06
say, you just kind of, you can do with just a little bit and
37:10
make so much out of that. Have you come across the app
37:14
Euphorage? Because I had Tiander on who
37:18
created the app Euphorage. And it's, I just wanted to
37:22
highlight it in this because it's important to talk about.
37:24
She has essentially created this app that has a map on it and you
37:30
can search your local area for Rd. stalls and people that are
37:36
selling and got extras of what they need.
37:39
So it's a way of having OK, if I need eggs, I type in OK, I need
37:43
eggs and then it will give you all the people in your immediate
37:46
area and, and those providing eggs and having roadside stalls.
37:50
So I think techniques like that and as you say, hard working
37:53
individuals that are putting themselves out there to try and
37:56
build a bit of a community is where it can start.
37:59
But ultimately we've got to get down to our younger generation.
38:03
And that's kind of a big motivation for myself.
38:06
Like I'm only, I'm only in my early 30s and I'd like to think
38:10
that I've can inspire some younger people myself.
38:15
We, we have our first child who will probably be already here by
38:19
the time this podcast is out because they're due any day now.
38:25
So that's something that's definitely at the forefront of
38:28
my mind. Can you talk on a little bit
38:31
about your views of the next generation, how that's moving
38:35
and whether you see this big wave of permaculture and and
38:39
that kind of thing touching some of the the younger generations?
38:44
Like I used to believe it and I actually used to work in schools
38:46
and I used to, I did use permaculture as a meteor.
38:48
So this is, this is a long time ago now, but I found like, while
38:53
it was exciting, you know, you're dealing with inside a
38:56
school format. So it's subject to principle and
38:58
policy and there's all sorts of other stuff as well.
39:00
And, you know, the moment there was a shift because of NAPLAN or
39:04
something else, there was always, you know, money going
39:06
somewhere else. And how does that work?
39:08
But I found I have more of an effect working with adults and
39:13
then threw them through to the kids rather than just working
39:17
with the kids direct because, I mean, you know, like when, you
39:20
know, congratulations that you're about to have your mind
39:22
appreciate that. Yeah.
39:23
Yeah. Mine, mine are almost all out.
39:25
So it's sort of the other end of the spectrum.
39:27
But you know, just something as simple as getting them, you
39:29
know, having their hands in the soil, finding a worm.
39:33
Yes. You know, picking a tomato,
39:37
putting in the mouth straight from the garden, you know, those
39:39
are the sensation things. And so it's a sensory
39:41
experience. It's not just about how to grow,
39:44
but understanding flavour. Yeah.
39:47
You know, so when you've got you, when you've filled your
39:49
bucket as far as the soils are concerned, and then, you know,
39:52
they put it in their mouth and then they're eating it.
39:55
And then it's like they'll go somewhere else and eat it.
39:56
And it's just like, what is, what is this?
39:58
It's got a completely different flavor it, you know, the stuff
40:00
from the shop compared to, I'm not saying, you know, not all
40:03
product, but you know what I'm saying?
40:04
It's like it's very different to coming straight out of your off
40:07
your balcony or out of your garden and it's popping straight
40:09
into your mouth. And it's it becomes a sensory
40:11
experience. It's not just about.
40:12
And this is where it sort of ties into some of the ideas of
40:15
the Slow Food movement. You know, growing it and taking
40:17
your time and then using those flavours and, and, and
40:20
traditional experiences to be able to, you know, cook
40:23
something that's going to be wholesome and, and, and create
40:25
that convivial environment for your family or for your friends
40:30
or whatever it happens to be that longer table.
40:32
Yeah, yeah. Rather than just growing the
40:34
food. I love that, but that is a
40:36
really good point and I'm going to store that one away.
40:39
Thank you, Michael, because that's something that I'm going
40:40
to try and try and introduce. Let's touch on your like PDCS,
40:46
courses, workshops and things because you're quite a prominent
40:49
educator and have been for some time.
40:51
And as somebody who likes to educate as well, what are some
41:00
key things that I can do as an educator to reach more people in
41:07
terms of making a more positive impact on them?
41:10
Because you see all sorts of different types of people coming
41:12
through and hopefully more and more and more as it's going on
41:16
and getting more popular. But what are you trying to to do
41:22
to really instill the education and make sure it's a long
41:26
lasting effect? Well, that's a big question.
41:29
How long we got? Sorry.
41:31
Listen. Yeah, No, that's fine.
41:33
That's fine. Let me do.
41:35
Yeah, really. It's for me, you know, giving
41:38
the theories one thing, but also having the hands on experience
41:40
as well and doing it. And you know, sometimes the
41:43
theory, sometimes sorry, sometimes the practical is a
41:45
pain in the bum. And I've had students come
41:48
through in the past who've just hated it.
41:49
But you know something but did it.
41:51
That's what cements the learning.
41:54
You know, you can, you can give them all the handouts.
41:56
You can have PowerPoints, you can show them all the videos.
41:58
You can talk to your blue in the face.
42:01
It's really the hands on. If you want to teach, teach.
42:03
If you want to do soil test, do a soil test.
42:06
If you want to, you know, go out there and engage in community,
42:10
engaging community. It's the doing, it's making it
42:12
real. It matters.
42:13
And so I try, I bring a lot of that into my teaching.
42:18
And so it's not just we do, we talk a lot on theory.
42:20
We get practice. And then it's like, no, we're
42:22
getting our hands in the dirt now we're, we're, we're getting
42:24
out there in the mud. It's about boots on the ground.
42:26
It's not so much about sitting there talking philosophy all the
42:28
time. Yeah, Yeah.
42:30
No, that's a value valuable point because it is you do learn
42:34
by doing and the retention of information.
42:37
Like I find that I can read or listen to a whole bunch of
42:42
information, but there's only one or two things that generally
42:46
really stick because they might be relevant to what I'm actually
42:49
doing in the garden at the time. And it's by doing, making those
42:53
mistakes and learning from them that I learned best.
42:57
And then I can then share that through personal experience,
42:59
etcetera, etcetera. So I'm yeah, obviously I'm just
43:02
curious because that's something that I'm trying to do is, is
43:06
educate, but also black inspire people to actually give it a go
43:09
themselves. And and as you say, you don't
43:13
have to do all of this huge acreage self-sufficiency, create
43:19
everything like grow everything you absolutely want and need.
43:23
You can just start with a couple of pots on your balcony or even
43:26
get to go full circle and come back to that.
43:29
Hey, Michael. So yeah, can you tell me a
43:32
little bit about your techniques in terms of your containers and
43:36
how you're helping to create thriving healthy soil in a small
43:42
container that's not connected to these vast commutative
43:46
systems under the ground and networks and things like this?
43:50
Specifically for me, if I can give you a couple that I use, I
43:53
use cover crops quite often in between or growing alongside.
43:59
I use mulch, compost, worms and all of these types of things to
44:03
try and keep up the diversity and keep some sort of life in
44:07
the soil. Can you tell me a bit about what
44:09
you do to manage your balcony garden?
44:12
Yeah, listen, I used, I used to do all that too, you know, And I
44:16
just, I've learned over the years like less is more.
44:19
OK, cool. You know.
44:20
You can. You can overdo a good thing and
44:23
it and it creates work and and potentially problems.
44:26
The biggest one I found and it had to do with the aphid.
44:29
Actually, believe it or not, my one once there was my orchard
44:32
was absolutely getting hammered with aphids and I'm like, what
44:35
the what's going on? I I said some very polite
44:38
language and anyway, I worked out it was the way I was making
44:42
my compost. It was too rich.
44:45
So because it was too rich six months after spent six months
44:47
after application, I was having huge patch pressures because
44:50
there was a flow on effect from what I was applying.
44:53
So when it comes to what I'm doing on my balcony, I just
44:56
apply a little bit of compost. What I, what I will be doing,
45:01
it's it's too soon to do it now because I was to do it now, it'd
45:03
be too much. You know, about once every six
45:05
months I'll be applying some rock minerals.
45:07
Yes, you know, and it's not a huge amount, but it's also
45:10
balanced to what I'm actually producing in my compost.
45:13
And you know, I'm at a point now with my worm farm where I'm
45:16
actually starting to add some of those amendments to my worm
45:18
farm. So what comes out of that is
45:19
naturally got it in any way. So I'm not even having to do
45:22
that. It's just a little bit of
45:24
application from time to time, and that's it.
45:26
With regards to mulch, I don't tend to use a lot of mulch
45:29
because I plant so tightly that the plants themselves become
45:32
mulch. Yeah.
45:33
And so, you know, having really intensive growing spaces, it
45:36
actually means less. I'm having to use less water,
45:39
and it's less work. And it's actually less expensive
45:41
because I'm not having to purchase mulch in.
45:42
Yeah, beautiful. You know, so it's it's yeah,
45:45
it's a little things go a long way.
45:46
And so, you know, a 30 centimeter pot that's still a
45:49
square foot. I can actually fit a lot of food
45:50
in a square foot. And so having that on the
45:53
balcony or, you know, designing my, my medieval herb garden at
45:57
the back in that particular fashion, or even just applying
45:59
it to my biponics units or whatever, same theory.
46:03
That's how I'm able to get so much out of a small space for
46:05
minimal minimal inputs. Yeah, really clever.
46:08
And I like how you say about the compost being too hot, like for
46:13
instance, 2 nitrogen heavy is going to cause lockout of
46:17
certain things like a phosphorus or calcium or whatever.
46:23
And people, you know, it's important to, to understand a
46:26
little bit of the chemistry maybe if you want to really no
46:29
doubt about it. But I really like the simplicity
46:32
of what you said about just like keeping it really basic because
46:37
that, I mean, I'm guilty of this because as I just said to you,
46:40
you know, I do XYZ blah, blah, blah.
46:42
And I run the the amendment mix that I have through the worm
46:46
farm and through the compost and trying to have that already kind
46:50
of pre loaded a little bit as well.
46:54
But it can be as simple as just having a really basic complete
46:59
compost that's nice and simple and it goes on top and you let
47:03
nature kind of just do it's thing.
47:06
Absolutely. You know, worms will find their
47:07
way, the bacteria and fungi will find their way.
47:10
You create the habitat. And I think of I think of
47:12
cheapos as habitat. Yeah.
47:15
You know, it's not just cycling and nutrients.
47:17
I mean, then you think about it. You'll never feed the plant
47:19
completely from your compost because you're using your scraps
47:22
to make it. So you need to amend it in some
47:24
fashion. There needs to be an input to be
47:25
an output. But if you start thinking of it
47:27
as habitat, so the breakdown process, whether a bacteria and
47:30
fungi are actually doing the work, but then you're
47:31
inoculating your beds using that.
47:33
It might only be, I don't know, a couple centimetres a year.
47:37
That's not a lot when you think about it, but the amount of
47:40
biology that's in that that's in turn going into your garden or
47:42
going into your pots, that's making everything else
47:44
available. It's just huge.
47:47
And so the the big shift for me was thinking about that it's
47:50
actually habitat, not so much nutrient cycling and, you know.
47:54
Yeah. And the more complete I made my
47:56
compost, it wasn't hard. I mean, yes, you can get you,
47:58
like you said, nerd out on the science.
48:00
But, you know, something as simple as all my organic matter
48:03
goes into my compost. Yeah, and it's not just one
48:06
thing, it's it's all, you know, a whole diverse range of stuff
48:09
and you know, and egg shells and all sorts of, you know, whatever
48:12
I've got that will go in, will go in.
48:14
I don't keep it exclusive for this or keep that for that.
48:17
It all goes in. And that's what makes it really
48:19
diverse. And I just make sure it's
48:21
aerated and moist. And within three to four weeks,
48:24
I have this beautiful black gold that is just going to be applied
48:28
across the top of my system, and that's it.
48:31
That's amazing. Are you then?
48:33
How often are you changing out the soil at all?
48:37
Are you taking it out, dumping it, re amending it, doing
48:41
anything? Or is it literally just pull
48:42
something out and plant something back into it and go
48:47
again? A.
48:47
Minute it's just pull it out and plant it in.
48:49
But it's only been, I've only been here about four months at
48:52
this new place. So it's not really, really old,
48:55
but my wicking beds, for example, you know, I don't, I
48:58
just keep adding to it. I don't pull it out.
49:00
Yes, what I have done, like we've got some other raised
49:03
garden beds that I use as well. And I, it's just, I just amend
49:06
the soils, you know, make sure it's air rated, make sure it's
49:09
got enough organic matter in it, and then just keep things going
49:12
and it just thrives. That's really clever.
49:15
Yeah, It is a simplistic approach that can get us over
49:18
the line. I think a lot of people are too
49:20
scared because people like myself use all of these crazy
49:25
techniques and I'm guilty of saying, you know, you can use
49:28
this and this will help with that and this and blah, blah,
49:30
blah. And it, it can be somewhat
49:33
daunting for people to kind of go, oh, there's all of this
49:36
stuff that I've got to do and think about.
49:38
And realistically you can pop it in the soil and nature will get
49:43
to work balancing itself out and making it a thriving ecosystem
49:47
on its own, right. So.
49:49
Yeah, once, once we've identified whatever the issues
49:51
are, like I said, you know, set your souls 1st through what I
49:53
call the high 5. And you know, once you've
49:56
assessed that and then sort of move forward in, in coming up
50:00
with some sort of fertility program.
50:01
And it doesn't have to be big, you know, Kos, keep it simple.
50:05
That's it. Because if something goes, if
50:07
you make it complicated and something goes wrong, you start
50:10
scratching your head going, where did it go wrong?
50:13
But if you keep it simple and you will have a file.
50:16
And it was actually my, she's now 21, but she was 16 at the
50:18
time and my eldest daughter. And she goes, you know, I was
50:21
wrestling with a problem. And she's like, you know, dad,
50:23
what's the issue? And I told her, she said, Dad,
50:24
it's not a file. It's a first attempt in
50:25
learning. And it's like intelligent boom.
50:29
You know, it was just like, and it is, it's like, OK, well, what
50:32
can I learn from this to move forward?
50:35
And every site is different, you know, and every situation is
50:39
different and everyone's context is different.
50:41
And it can be daunting. But it's like, you know, what if
50:44
we just keep it simple and slowly add things over time,
50:47
That idea of one tree a week or one one square meter of garden
50:49
bed a week or whatever it happens to be, you know, slowly
50:52
add over time. We will learn with it.
50:54
Yeah, that's really when. Success starts to happen.
50:57
You're right, learning, constantly learning.
51:00
Can I ask you maybe a sort of a relatively difficult question,
51:05
What's, what's something that's right on the front of your mind
51:08
at the moment that you're learning about?
51:10
What's something that's intriguing you that you're
51:12
trying to discover and dive into a little bit more?
51:16
Because for me, there's always something and I'm always trying
51:19
to learn something. And I'm just so curious to find
51:21
out what that is for you. Listen, I've, I had an epiphany
51:26
about six months ago with regards to process and design
51:29
and I've been playing that with that with clients and I'm still
51:32
exploring those edges and it's been really amazing with some of
51:35
the stuff that comes out. And I don't know if you're
51:37
familiar with Dan Palmer and any of his work with regards to
51:40
making purple, growing purple colors are stronger and all that
51:42
sort of stuff. He was a good friend and mentor
51:43
of mine. And, you know, he always talked
51:47
about Michael, one day you're going to have this moment.
51:49
And it's just like, and it's just I, I think this was my
51:52
moment about six months ago. And it's, and I've been really
51:55
diving into this particular idea of process.
51:58
And it's turned it from even from the idea of a mentorship to
52:02
a Co creative, a Co creative collaborative process, like a
52:06
real one with clients, which has just opened up so many doors and
52:12
asked, you know, and it's getting to ask more questions,
52:14
but there's most questions need to more, you know, more in depth
52:19
answers for that particular client or that particular side.
52:22
And it's that's really exciting me at the minute.
52:25
Cool. I really like that because it
52:26
gives me an insight into a few things.
52:30
One is showing that everyone's still always learning even
52:32
though you've got some wicked experience under your belt, but
52:35
you're also still trying to, you know, you're looking for that
52:39
next thing. And it's exciting when you do
52:41
learn some new ways of attacking things.
52:45
And also, I like hearing about the way in which you're
52:49
reframing certain things, maybe from hindsight, from experience,
52:54
those types of things Along that thread, is there anything that
52:58
you have really changed your mind on or flipped on over the
53:02
years or have just developed a deeper understanding towards
53:06
that stands out for you? With regards to.
53:10
Just permaculture in general, I suppose.
53:11
Just. Permaculture in general.
53:13
Listen, everyone's on a different journey.
53:15
So like, you know, teaching APDC, for example, you know, I,
53:18
I, I limit the numbers to my courses for maximum effort,
53:22
maximum learning outcomes. And you know, the next one I'm
53:25
teaching is only going to be, for example, I'm only going to
53:27
have 12 people in it, but they'll all be delivered the
53:30
same material, but they're all going to walk away with
53:31
something different. Everyone's journey is different,
53:34
so to say. Is there something like
53:35
something I've noticed For me, Yes, Something for the movement
53:39
itself or the network itself? That's a.
53:40
That's a completely different question.
53:42
Yeah, I think more so for you Michael, like something that you
53:45
have like discovered either probably was slightly more early
53:51
on in your journey attacking something and then kind of
53:54
changing and shifting. Like I'll give you an example
53:57
for me was when I was thinking about designing the front area
54:03
garden here, I had a lot of initial thoughts on trying to
54:09
develop it for food primarily. And I have shifted that thinking
54:15
away from food primarily because I, I know that in the space, I'm
54:22
not going to be able to, as you say, grow all the food that I
54:25
wanted to grow. And it's just going to become a
54:28
bit of a magnet for like unhealthy soils, pest and
54:32
disease pressure, this type of thing, because I'm trying to
54:35
either fit too much into the space and these types of things.
54:39
So my mind, my mindset has shifted to trying to include a
54:44
whole bunch of other different species for different purposes
54:48
that will work well together and grow a little bit less food.
54:51
So my mindset is shifting away from, OK, I can just design it
54:55
for however I want it into something, you know, like we
54:58
were speaking about before, that's a bit more in tune with
55:01
what's going on in the land. So can you share anything that
55:05
comes to mind for yourself over your journey just to kind?
55:08
Of round this up. Yeah, Listen for me, starting
55:11
with, you know, really it was about food.
55:15
And I think it was Mike Fengold, I believe, who said, you know,
55:19
it's a permaculture is a revolution disguised as
55:20
gardening. And you go in for the gardening
55:22
and you come out and go, you know, I've been reading about it
55:24
for years. And I thought, oh, yeah, I've
55:25
got a handle on this. And I went into my first PTC and
55:27
it's like, holy shit, I had no idea.
55:29
Oh, my God. Boom.
55:32
Head was exploded. But, you know, it shifted from
55:36
that. And then I started moving into
55:37
learning more about social permaculture and social circles
55:39
and holistic context. And then from there into larger
55:42
landscapes and like it all just started to blend.
55:44
And, you know, my journey took me into like regen AG and
55:48
biological farming and region and, you know, natural secrets
55:52
farming. And there's a whole, a whole
55:53
range of methodologies that I use now.
55:55
It's not just strictly permaculture.
55:56
They're all independent, but they're all synergistic as well.
55:58
So they work really, really well together.
56:01
And then from there recently, it's really dived back into that
56:04
heavy design side of things. You know, coming up with, like I
56:08
said, I had an epiphany. I had a thought and that thought
56:10
has just dived into a massive rabbit hole.
56:12
And, but I think when it comes to making those decisions for
56:18
your journey, it's, it's, it's where you're at.
56:20
You know, I wouldn't be able, I wouldn't be where I'm at as far
56:23
as this process that I'm now currently working on if it
56:26
wasn't for all the experiences I had beforehand.
56:28
Yeah, yeah. You know, diving into that
56:30
growing of food and diving into that holistic context and diving
56:33
into those social permaculture and diving into all the regional
56:35
agony and all sorts of other stuff are now leading back into
56:37
some of this process. And it's like, it's like because
56:40
I've learnt so much in all those different areas, it's evolving
56:43
into something completely new. You're right, it helps you to
56:46
understand what's going on so much better because you're
56:50
seeing it through so many different lenses and.
56:54
Different. Opinions.
56:55
Different ideas? Exactly.
56:57
Every course is different and even in permaculture, every
56:59
permaculture design course is different.
57:01
They've got a different focus. And so, you know, for me, like
57:04
I've done 14 as a student and it is excessive, but it was, I'll
57:11
freely admit that. But you know, everyone was
57:13
different and everyone had a different focus and they talked
57:17
about different things. And I have learnt from all of
57:19
them, which has been really interesting.
57:21
And you know, then when you're getting into some of the more
57:23
advanced stuff as well, you know, you, it adds new layers to
57:27
it. And then, but the real, the real
57:29
kicker was taking that knowledge and then applying it in real
57:33
world context, not just thinking about it, doing it.
57:37
And that gave the, the, the, the, the rubber of design hits
57:40
the road to reality situation. And it's like, well, in theory,
57:43
that's good, but in, in practicality, it's not working.
57:46
And these are the reasons why and how we can we learn and
57:48
adapt and adjust. And in that context is fine.
57:51
In that context, it's not. And it is, it's just an ongoing
57:54
learning journey. I, I, I'd hate to know it all.
58:00
I'm very grateful that there's a lot of mysteries in this
58:03
universe and you know, it's, it's, it's an amazing journey to
58:08
be on. And some of the things I've seen
58:09
has just been incredible. It's been hard lessons though.
58:12
I had to work really hard and there's been some absolute lows
58:15
as well as absolute highs. Biggest lesson I've learned for
58:19
myself is recognizing my own boundaries and saying no.
58:24
Michael, I relate to that a lot. You give a lot and you do, you
58:28
give a lot and it's understanding when it's like,
58:31
actually that's a boundary. That's a no, and I'm stopping
58:34
there. Or for whatever the reason,
58:36
because you've got it on it yourself.
58:37
Because if you don't, then that leads down a path that that can
58:40
be quite nasty for yourself, whether physically, mentally or
58:43
spiritually. Yeah, very good point, Michael.
58:46
Thank you. Where can we find you if people
58:49
want to come and get involved? I know whether it's just to
58:54
follow you and your journey personally or to come and do one
58:57
of your courses and things like that.
58:59
Can you point people to where they can best find you?
59:03
Listen, I've got a website. It does need to be updated
59:05
though a little bit, but save us all permaculture.com.
59:08
Listen, there's a one man show. I've only got so many hours.
59:10
In the day, yeah, you're doing. Amazing.
59:12
Yeah, well, Facebook and Instagram is sort of where I
59:15
keep a lot of up to date what I'm doing on landscapes and
59:18
ideas and thoughts and me just doing a mental block from time
59:21
to time. That's probably the end.
59:23
Yeah. They're probably the three main
59:25
sources of of having a look. There's a lot of information on
59:28
the website. So if anyone's interested in the
59:29
blog section and from design work through to plant profiles,
59:34
massive amount of plant profiles for plants in our region, you
59:38
know, the Weenie Wednesdays, there's this, there's a lot of
59:40
information as well as how to just, you know, a lot of
59:42
information on growing food at home and little tricks and hints
59:47
and tips and planning. And I'm a big on planning, but
59:51
yeah. Alrighty everybody, what a
1:00:09
fascinating gentleman Michael is.
1:00:11
And again, I said, I'm so grateful to him for his time for
1:00:15
sharing some of this wisdom and knowledge.
1:00:16
And for someone like myself who is an aspiring educator and
1:00:20
voice in all of this space and understanding all of these
1:00:23
incredible concepts that we're learning about from some of
1:00:26
these people who've had wonderful expertise and
1:00:29
experience. It's just a joy to be able to
1:00:32
connect with these people and to learn and to be mentored and all
1:00:35
of these sorts of things. So personally and professionally
1:00:38
for myself, selfishly, I'm absolutely loving having
1:00:42
conversations like this one. Now, as always, please go and
1:00:46
support our guest. Michael will have all of his
1:00:49
links in the description the show notes below.
1:00:51
I really highly encourage you to go and check those out.
1:00:54
And if you are within time zones or travel distance or all sorts
1:00:59
of things to be able to connect with one of Michael's courses, I
1:01:02
very highly encourage you to do so as well.
1:01:05
Even though I'm going to be very busy as a brand new father
1:01:08
coming up, it's something that's definitely on my bucket list to
1:01:11
go and study with Michael and just to learn more about the
1:01:15
ways in which he sees the world through a permaculture lens.
1:01:19
So thank you again to Michael and thank you everybody for
1:01:23
watching and listening. I'm very grateful to all of you
1:01:26
listening. And for those who rate the show,
1:01:29
if you found any value, finding a rating on any of the platforms
1:01:32
would be wonderful. It really helps other people
1:01:35
find this show and spread the awareness of all of these
1:01:38
wonderful topics we're talking about.
1:01:40
South Review is always greatly gratefully received.
1:01:45
But yeah, that's it from me. Thank you so much for listening
1:01:48
and yeah, very excited. So I will see you very soon on
1:01:52
the next episode. Bye for now.