Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / How to Raise Strong, Safe, Kind Sons [Parental Guidance Ep. 4]

Transcript

How to Raise Strong, Safe, Kind Sons [Parental Guidance Ep. 4] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: And I'm really anti that voice will be boys.
0:08
Speaker 2: He really does stereotype type of behavior that is not okay.
0:13
Speaker 3: Boys will be boys. That is the topic of our
0:17
Speaker 3: conversation today based on what you would have seen on
0:21
Speaker 3: Monday night in episode for the limited season finale of
0:25
Speaker 3: Parental Guidance on nine. You can catch up on nine now.
0:28
Speaker 3: Streaming is still available for all three seasons. Oh my goodness,
0:33
Speaker 3: do we have some stuff to talk about today? Could
0:35
Speaker 3: Welcome to The Happy Family's podcast Real Parenting Solutions. Every
0:38
Speaker 3: day on Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, We are justin
0:42
Speaker 3: and Kylie Colson. Kylie, your jaw was on the floor,
0:47
Speaker 3: like you just kept on looking at me and gripping
0:51
Speaker 3: my knee and going, oh my goodness, oh my goodness,
0:53
Speaker 3: every time somebody would say something gripping, compelling, fascinating, television,
0:59
Speaker 3: great conversations on Monday night.
1:01
Speaker 2: The frustration for me is that we're watching the edited version.
1:04
Speaker 4: I actually wanted to be in the room, like, whoa.
1:07
Speaker 3: It was so much fun. So let's let's let's set
1:10
Speaker 3: this up. For those of you who are either overseas
1:12
Speaker 3: listening to the pod or you just haven't been able
1:14
Speaker 3: to get to it to watch it. Yet the challenge was, well,
1:19
Speaker 3: let me play the audio and we'll share what the
1:21
Speaker 3: challenge was.
1:22
Speaker 1: Kids, we got a message, how do you really parent?
1:27
Speaker 5: To find out give your children a chance to act
1:30
Speaker 5: as parents.
1:32
Speaker 1: The new baby is waiting. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm sure.
1:38
Speaker 6: How exciting.
1:39
Speaker 3: So yesterday we talked about three of the four families,
1:42
Speaker 3: but today it's the five boys, the life school parent family.
1:47
Speaker 5: Ah, all right, he's grabbing.
1:52
Speaker 4: Come on you, my moms and dads.
1:56
Speaker 1: It's the world chambien Ship baby thrower.
2:02
Speaker 4: Let's talk to our panel.
2:04
Speaker 1: Parents.
2:05
Speaker 6: Your eldest is going to make a great father one day.
2:08
Speaker 6: Obviously he remembers having the little siblings, and then you know,
2:12
Speaker 6: they're playing, they're working around, having fun. The boys were boys.
2:16
Speaker 2: We need to have a conversation about that comment. Boys
2:18
Speaker 2: will be boys. That's the whole purpose to yes, But
2:22
Speaker 2: I just wanted to highlight first that I think it's
2:26
Speaker 2: a very unfair reflection of who these boys are and
2:32
Speaker 2: what they are as they played with this doll. Number one,
2:36
Speaker 2: they're not versed with playing with dolls in general. This
2:38
Speaker 2: is a very unique situation for them. But secondly, I
2:42
Speaker 2: can almost certainly guarantee you that if a baby, a
2:46
Speaker 2: real life baby, was placed in their arms, we would
2:49
Speaker 2: see an entirely different side of them.
2:51
Speaker 3: I want to push even further. I would say they
2:53
Speaker 3: would be nurturing.
2:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:54
Speaker 3: I would say that they would pick up that baby
2:56
Speaker 3: and they would nurse it and cuddle it, and.
2:58
Speaker 2: They would be calm and they would be So what
3:02
Speaker 2: we saw on TV was great TV, yes, but I
3:05
Speaker 2: don't think it's a real reflection of who these boys are.
3:08
Speaker 3: I can vouch just for myself. I have literally footy
3:12
Speaker 3: pasts our children's dolls around the living room when we've
3:16
Speaker 3: had other men in the room, Hey catch and just
3:19
Speaker 3: throwing the doll across the room. But here's the main
3:22
Speaker 3: thing that I want to emphasize on what you've just said.
3:24
Speaker 3: It's not about how they played doll. It's about the
3:27
Speaker 3: conversation that it sparks. Yeah, and didn't it spark a conversation?
3:31
Speaker 6: And I'm really anti that boys will be boys?
3:34
Speaker 2: Okay. It really does stereotype type of behavior.
3:38
Speaker 1: That is not okay.
3:40
Speaker 5: Boys aren't naturally nurturing, you know, and they showed that there.
3:46
Speaker 6: You know, they can be if a man has to
3:48
Speaker 6: change an happy or cook and clean doesn't make this
3:51
Speaker 6: of a man.
3:52
Speaker 5: The first six to twelve months of the baby's life,
3:55
Speaker 5: especially if you're naturally nursing, the father essentially not exists.
4:00
Speaker 5: All it cares for is mum.
4:02
Speaker 3: So the boys will be boys. Conversation is coming, but
4:05
Speaker 3: first we need to talk about this.
4:07
Speaker 2: I want to take on this idea that babies only
4:10
Speaker 2: want their mums. This was actually probably a bit of
4:14
Speaker 2: a fallacy that you lived into in our first few
4:18
Speaker 2: years of marriage. But there is so much scope for
4:22
Speaker 2: dads to get involved. If mum is breastfeeding, it makes
4:25
Speaker 2: it a little bit trickier because they're nurturing takes place
4:29
Speaker 2: in that space. But outside of that, a baby needs
4:32
Speaker 2: their nappies change, a baby needs a bath, a baby
4:35
Speaker 2: needs to be burped, a baby needs to be soothed
4:37
Speaker 2: and comforted. If there's opportunities for bottle feeding, dads can
4:41
Speaker 2: get involved with the bottle feeding. They can help put
4:43
Speaker 2: the baby to sleep, they can do tummy time supervision,
4:46
Speaker 2: they can read and sing to them. Like there is
4:48
Speaker 2: so much scope for dads to get involved without having
4:53
Speaker 2: to breastfeed a baby.
4:54
Speaker 3: They can push the baby around the neighborhood in the pram.
4:57
Speaker 2: Which you were really good at, you were a really
4:59
Speaker 2: good at. But then there's also getting up to the
5:02
Speaker 2: baby at night. You know, even if mum is breastfeeding,
5:06
Speaker 2: they can get up in the middle of the night,
5:07
Speaker 2: pick the baby up so that or allow mum to
5:10
Speaker 2: feed it and then do the rest. But there is
5:13
Speaker 2: so much in just that. But they can also take
5:15
Speaker 2: care of, you know, the meals. They can help with
5:18
Speaker 2: the chores around the house. They can manage your visitors
5:20
Speaker 2: in those early weeks dealing with the changes that take
5:24
Speaker 2: place in your lifestyle, and especially for a mum, having
5:28
Speaker 2: someone else manage all of that, that's huge. They can
5:32
Speaker 2: encourage mum to rest, they can do what's needful so
5:36
Speaker 2: that she gets what she needs in order to be
5:39
Speaker 2: able to be at her best.
5:41
Speaker 3: They can look after the big kids if there are
5:43
Speaker 3: older kids.
5:43
Speaker 2: They can attend appointments. They can help with the breastfeeding
5:46
Speaker 2: set up like they you know, when when you go
5:52
Speaker 2: out walking, they can push the pram or they can
5:54
Speaker 2: carry the baby like it.
5:56
Speaker 3: Just so, Joshua was wrong, is what you're saying.
6:00
Speaker 2: Highly entirely. Let me just pick that can do the laundry,
6:05
Speaker 2: let me pick up I can take the photos.
6:08
Speaker 3: There are two things that I say here. First of all,
6:10
Speaker 3: in the early days of our marriage and with our
6:12
Speaker 3: first couple of kids, I was a radio announcer. I
6:14
Speaker 3: always had to be on, Like, if you're showing up
6:17
Speaker 3: on the radio, you've got to be able to do
6:18
Speaker 3: the job and be sparky, right.
6:20
Speaker 6: Like.
6:20
Speaker 3: It's a bit like being a professional athlete. I can't
6:22
Speaker 3: believe I've just compared radio anounces to professional athletes, but
6:25
Speaker 3: I can't.
6:25
Speaker 2: Believe to do that anyway.
6:27
Speaker 3: It's a performance kind of thing. You've got to be
6:29
Speaker 3: able to be there and do it well.
6:31
Speaker 2: Well, you did live into that excuse.
6:33
Speaker 3: I did, that's right, But I did many of the
6:36
Speaker 3: things that you've highlighted there as well. But I definitely
6:38
Speaker 3: sort of looked at it and said, no, I've got
6:40
Speaker 3: to be able to I've got to be able to
6:41
Speaker 3: perform during the day, so I need my sleep. You're
6:43
Speaker 3: going to have to do the nighttime shift.
6:45
Speaker 2: But I think I think what it came down to, though, essentially,
6:48
Speaker 2: is number one. I lived into that role of nurturer
6:54
Speaker 2: deeply and cherished that. But for you, there was a
7:00
Speaker 2: level of feeling incompetent totally, and I didn't recognize that
7:05
Speaker 2: as a young mum and didn't recognize the part I
7:08
Speaker 2: could play in nurturing your ability to develop and grow
7:13
Speaker 2: as a dad.
7:14
Speaker 3: That's a great insight and so and I was much
7:17
Speaker 3: more involved even at night times as we had children four,
7:20
Speaker 3: five and six.
7:21
Speaker 6: Yeah.
7:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it comes down to a level of competence.
7:24
Speaker 3: Competence.
7:25
Speaker 2: It had zero competence in the beginning, and therefore you
7:27
Speaker 2: were fearful. Let's put it there. You were fearful.
7:30
Speaker 3: Something important to highlight as well, though when Josh said
7:33
Speaker 3: my child doesn't want me, that as someone's right in
7:36
Speaker 3: saying how much time you're spending with the child. There
7:38
Speaker 3: is that element of it. But there is this thing
7:40
Speaker 3: called an attachment hierarchy, and children do have usually mum
7:44
Speaker 3: at the top of that hierarchy, and quite often they
7:47
Speaker 3: will push that away, especially from about nine to twelve months.
7:50
Speaker 3: That's when it kicks in and it can carry on
7:52
Speaker 3: for a couple of years. That's not an excuse for
7:54
Speaker 3: dads to step out. In fact, if anything, is an
7:56
Speaker 3: excuse for dads to take opportunities when the baby's not
7:59
Speaker 3: being resist and build the relationship. We need to move
8:02
Speaker 3: on because there's so much to talk about. Yeah, so
8:05
Speaker 3: after the break we are going to talk about this.
8:08
Speaker 5: I think we should be very careful not to feminize
8:11
Speaker 5: our males too much in society.
8:13
Speaker 1: Oh, I guess what's rubbing me the wrong way?
8:17
Speaker 7: Your thoughts are really this is what goes on fair
8:21
Speaker 7: enough in your world around the people that you choose
8:23
Speaker 7: to hang around. That might happen, but that's not the
8:26
Speaker 7: whole world. Also, I do a lot of men in
8:30
Speaker 7: this society these days as well are.
8:32
Speaker 1: Not great men. I think we need to change that, Kylie.
8:44
Speaker 3: The debate about gender stereotypes kicked off, and this was
8:48
Speaker 3: the conversation that had everybody riveted to the screen like
8:52
Speaker 3: we had another watch party, and everybody was just like, whoa, we've.
8:57
Speaker 2: Been light on facials in this particular season. Holy smokes,
9:04
Speaker 2: they all came out on Monday night.
9:06
Speaker 3: Let's replay what Courtney said our pro tech mum.
9:10
Speaker 7: I do a lot of men in this society these
9:13
Speaker 7: days as well are not great men.
9:16
Speaker 1: I think we need to change that.
9:18
Speaker 5: I think we should be very careful not to feminize
9:21
Speaker 5: our males too much in society.
9:23
Speaker 3: Oh okay, Kylie, let's talk about here about gender roles,
9:28
Speaker 3: about kids about healthy concepts of masculinity. Where do you
9:33
Speaker 3: want to start?
9:33
Speaker 2: I actually want to ask you a question.
9:35
Speaker 3: I love it when you ask me questions.
9:36
Speaker 2: Go This conversation was massive. I can only imagine what
9:40
Speaker 2: the long take would have given us if we have
9:43
Speaker 2: been able to see everything that you guys talked about
9:45
Speaker 2: in the studio. But what is the world telling our
9:48
Speaker 2: young boys and girls about their genders that we need
9:50
Speaker 2: to be aware of? Because this conversation that you had
9:55
Speaker 2: in that room was intense.
9:58
Speaker 3: So really speaking, I think most people are pretty relaxed
10:03
Speaker 3: about girls growing up and making whatever decisions they want.
10:07
Speaker 3: So there was that line that Amy, the active parent mum, said.
10:11
Speaker 4: I don't think that you should have gender roles even
10:13
Speaker 4: from a young age. The boys. My girls play with
10:16
Speaker 4: trucks just as much as my boys will play with
10:18
Speaker 4: dress gender and my boy's favorite carlor. If you'd ask
10:23
Speaker 4: them right now, I'd be pink.
10:24
Speaker 3: Most people are pretty relaxed about their daughters wanting to
10:26
Speaker 3: be anything, including what have been traditionally male oriented roles
10:30
Speaker 3: like plumbers and electricians and so on. Pretty rare that
10:33
Speaker 3: you get a female plumber, by the way, about one
10:35
Speaker 3: in two hundred and fifty. For every two hundred and
10:37
Speaker 3: fifty men who are plumbers will be one woman. Electricians,
10:40
Speaker 3: it's about one percent of electricians a female. But we
10:43
Speaker 3: see more and more females. In fact, there are more
10:46
Speaker 3: females doing a whole lot of professional roles now that
10:49
Speaker 3: will want the domain of men.
10:50
Speaker 2: So I would have to believe that the feminist movement
10:53
Speaker 2: has impacted that, yeah, in a huge way.
10:57
Speaker 3: And I would say for good, like this.
10:59
Speaker 2: Idea that girls can be anything that they want to do,
11:01
Speaker 2: and they can do yeah power.
11:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, go girls, spice, girls, sporty spice. I've forgotten
11:06
Speaker 3: the other one's theory, spice. Whoever. Like let's talk about
11:08
Speaker 3: the boys, though, there was a question what about your
11:11
Speaker 3: boy who wants to wear pink? Or what about if
11:13
Speaker 3: your boy wants to wear a skirt. Here's what I'll say.
11:16
Speaker 3: I'm a man who's very happy to wear a pink shirt.
11:18
Speaker 3: I think I look really good in pink. I'm not
11:20
Speaker 3: worried about that. As a man who is confident in
11:22
Speaker 3: my masculinity and in my identity, I'm comfortable with who
11:25
Speaker 3: I am. But boys police one another's behavior, and they
11:31
Speaker 3: do it very very strongly, no matter how enlightened you
11:33
Speaker 3: might be as a parent. No matter how much you
11:35
Speaker 3: might tell boys that they can do anything and be anything.
11:39
Speaker 3: In the playground and online, boys are policed in a
11:43
Speaker 3: way that girls are not. So I've been writing my
11:46
Speaker 3: book about boys. We'll put a link into the show
11:48
Speaker 3: notes so that if you'd like to sign up for
11:50
Speaker 3: when it's available, we can give you the first lot
11:52
Speaker 3: of news. But as I'm writing this book, what I
11:54
Speaker 3: found was this, When girls decide that they want to
11:58
Speaker 3: go play with the boys, the boys think that's pretty weird,
12:03
Speaker 3: but the girls are fine with it, like, no girls
12:05
Speaker 3: are going, how can we playing with the boys? The
12:06
Speaker 3: girls are just like, yeah, okay, play with who you want.
12:09
Speaker 3: And when a boy wants to go and hang out
12:12
Speaker 3: with the girls, the girls are fine with it. The
12:13
Speaker 3: guy's like, yeah, you can hang out with us, that's fine,
12:15
Speaker 3: Like it doesn't bother them at all. But when a
12:18
Speaker 3: boy leaves his mates and goes to hang out with
12:23
Speaker 3: the girls, the boys start to call him names. The
12:27
Speaker 3: boys call him a simp, or they call him a
12:29
Speaker 3: war so they call him they call him gay. They like,
12:32
Speaker 3: the name calling starts, and the policing happens. Boy wearing pink.
12:36
Speaker 3: I don't know where that's up to anymore. I don't
12:38
Speaker 3: think it's as big a deal as it once was.
12:40
Speaker 3: A boy wearing a skirt. It's just not gonna happen.
12:43
Speaker 3: I know that everyone on the TV show, well not everyone,
12:44
Speaker 3: but several people on the show are being quite enlightened.
12:46
Speaker 3: And we'll talk about this more tomorrow. But when I
12:50
Speaker 3: talk to the boys, when I talk to parents, when
12:51
Speaker 3: I talk to school teachers, it just doesn't happen. And
12:54
Speaker 3: when somebody chooses to do it, it's considered weird. That's
12:57
Speaker 3: why it makes the papers. When Richard Wilkins from The
13:00
Speaker 3: Today showed the Entertainment Reporter when his son Christian wears
13:03
Speaker 3: a skirt on the red carpet, or when one of
13:05
Speaker 3: the One Direction boys wears a skirt to a premiere
13:09
Speaker 3: of something or other, it makes the news because it's
13:12
Speaker 3: stepping outside the gender roles. No one cares about a
13:14
Speaker 3: woman wearing pants, but everyone does care about a man
13:18
Speaker 3: wearing a skirt unless he's Scottish. You know what's worn
13:22
Speaker 3: under a scotsmanth kilt.
13:24
Speaker 2: Please don't go there.
13:24
Speaker 3: Nothing. Everything is in perfect working order. That's okay. I'll
13:29
Speaker 3: move on.
13:32
Speaker 2: There was definitely division in the room around what it
13:37
Speaker 2: means to be a healthy masculine man. Yeah, yeah, yeah
13:42
Speaker 2: on the show. Can you kind of just round it
13:46
Speaker 2: out for us?
13:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'm giving away everything that my book
13:50
Speaker 3: is about. But my book is about three things, and
13:52
Speaker 3: they're all the same thing. It's just saying it three
13:54
Speaker 3: different ways. First of all, it's about teaching our boys
13:59
Speaker 3: that they need to show up and be a bonus
14:01
Speaker 3: in the lives of the people around them. That they
14:03
Speaker 3: need to provide surplus value. That's what Richard Reeves, the
14:07
Speaker 3: author of Boys and Men and the president of the
14:10
Speaker 3: American Institute for Boys and Men, describes. This guy is
14:13
Speaker 3: a screaming left wing liberal. He is a mega feminist.
14:18
Speaker 3: But he's created the Institute for Boys and Men because
14:21
Speaker 3: boys and men are struggling. Males are struggling in our
14:24
Speaker 3: community in a way that they never had before, and
14:26
Speaker 3: they're just falling so far behind the girls.
14:29
Speaker 2: So when I was in high school, the acronym SNAG.
14:32
Speaker 3: Was a sensitive new age guys.
14:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, And as a girl, it was such a positive
14:40
Speaker 2: to have a male who was in touch enough with
14:44
Speaker 2: his feelings that he could be open and vulnerable and
14:47
Speaker 2: discuss those feelings with you like that was huge.
14:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's part of where the mannosphere
14:55
Speaker 3: impacts people in comments like Josh's, I think.
14:59
Speaker 5: We should be very careful not to feminize our males
15:02
Speaker 5: too much in society.
15:04
Speaker 3: Oh, a lot of people feel like it is weak
15:08
Speaker 3: to speak. There's bumper stickers everywhere. It ain't weak to speak, right,
15:12
Speaker 3: But I'm not actually pushing for our boys to be
15:16
Speaker 3: soft spoken and be sensitive new age guys. If that
15:19
Speaker 3: doesn't resonate for them, I'm pushing for them too. And
15:22
Speaker 3: this is the third of my three things. Be a
15:24
Speaker 3: bonus ad surplus value, and help the people around you
15:27
Speaker 3: to feel safer and stronger.
15:29
Speaker 2: So, as a female, when I have a male in
15:32
Speaker 2: my mitt who is comfortable enough to connect with me
15:35
Speaker 2: on that level, I feel safe and secure.
15:38
Speaker 3: Great. Yeah. And therefore it's being able to read the
15:40
Speaker 3: room and to be considerate of others, and to be
15:43
Speaker 3: able to share in a way that allows others to
15:47
Speaker 3: feel safe and secure that you're trustworthy.
15:49
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not expecting them to be a female. I'm
15:52
Speaker 2: not expecting them to hide the robust natures that they
15:57
Speaker 2: may have. It, but it makes a huge difference when
16:01
Speaker 2: I also don't have to hide my emotional side, for instance,
16:06
Speaker 2: because he can't cope with the emotions.
16:09
Speaker 3: There's a lot of eye rolls in the room. There
16:10
Speaker 3: was a lot of big emotion when the comment boys
16:12
Speaker 3: will be boys was trodden out. Boys will be boys
16:16
Speaker 3: is never an acceptable reason to excuse poor behavior. That is,
16:21
Speaker 3: when it's somebody, when a male is not being a bonus,
16:24
Speaker 3: when he's not adding surplus value but he's actually taking
16:27
Speaker 3: from the room, or when he is not helping people
16:30
Speaker 3: to feel safer and stronger, when he's making people feel
16:32
Speaker 3: weaker and unsafe. Boys will be boys is an appalling
16:37
Speaker 3: and just It's devastating and detrimental for every male, but
16:41
Speaker 3: also for every female when that gets trotted out. I'm
16:44
Speaker 3: actually comfortable with the line. When we're laughing about a
16:47
Speaker 3: bunch of boys kicking a foot around on the beach
16:50
Speaker 3: and tackling each other in the waves while the girls
16:53
Speaker 3: lay there in sun bacon read their phones or their books.
16:55
Speaker 3: That's boys being boys, and I think that we should
16:58
Speaker 3: celebrate those elements of masculine. That's the joy of being
17:02
Speaker 3: a guy. Guys get to do that stuff and they
17:04
Speaker 3: love it. But as soon as it crosses that line,
17:07
Speaker 3: boys will be boys is anathema to what healthy masculinity is.
17:11
Speaker 2: There is enough research to suggest that we thrive on touch,
17:16
Speaker 2: and as females, our touch is kind and gentle, and
17:20
Speaker 2: we give each other a hug or you know, hold
17:22
Speaker 2: hands or whatever it is. Men don't do that. No,
17:26
Speaker 2: their touch comes from the rough and tumble. That's actually
17:30
Speaker 2: where they get their touch so much. It's such an
17:33
Speaker 2: important part development.
17:34
Speaker 3: But knowing when like, it's not okay for me to
17:36
Speaker 3: tackle you, Okay, maybe don't roll your eyes and look
17:42
Speaker 3: like that is a parenting podcast. Anyway, Our time's up.
17:47
Speaker 3: We're going to stop there tomorrow. We are going to
17:50
Speaker 3: deal with this.
17:50
Speaker 6: If my kids decided, well they're not going to but
17:53
Speaker 6: if they decided they were men, that wouldn't be an
17:55
Speaker 6: option in our house. So very clear, God, it won't happen.
18:02
Speaker 3: Strapian Astrapian, Oh my goodness, I mean, I just love
18:06
Speaker 3: this show. Gosh. I hope we get to do a
18:08
Speaker 3: season four. But we'll talk more about episode four from
18:12
Speaker 3: season three and that big topic tomorrow on the podcast.
18:16
Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
18:19
Speaker 3: Bridge Media. MIM Hammonds provides research and other support. Craig
18:22
Speaker 3: Bruce has been our executive producer for this limited series.
18:26
Speaker 3: More information and more resources to make you family happier
18:29
Speaker 3: is available at happy families dot com dot au