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Lost Boys and Living Hope with Marc Sims · Ministry Minded

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SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry-Minded Podcast,
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a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
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in our messy
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SPEAKER_01: ministries.
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SPEAKER_01: I am, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
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I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church right
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here in Pax Sinus,
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Pennsylvania.
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SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next time.
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SPEAKER_01: Net through Substack.
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SPEAKER_01: This is one of those awesome stories.
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SPEAKER_01: You meet online,
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SPEAKER_01: you instantly find out that you have a lot of commonalities,
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SPEAKER_01: you share a lot of common interests,
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SPEAKER_01: not the least of which is pastoring and writing and sharing some of
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SPEAKER_01: Starrer
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writing a book about masculinity and identity and ways in which
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the gospel and the
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SPEAKER_01: word of God can inform especially men,
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SPEAKER_01: but especially young men,
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SPEAKER_01: of who they really are and where and why some of those
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Some of those things often fall off the track or maybe we could
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say fall by the wayside.
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SPEAKER_01: This is a really fun conversation.
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I was delighted to talk with Mark about all kinds of things we
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talk about.
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SPEAKER_01: about masculine identity.
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SPEAKER_01: We talk about the gospel.
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SPEAKER_01: We talk about pastoring.
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SPEAKER_01: We talk about depression.
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SPEAKER_01: We talk about the ways in which that has really become the
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SPEAKER_01: Sort of like the boogeyman of certain Christian circles.
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That was actually,
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in many ways,
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the article that sort of sparked my attention.
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SPEAKER_01: Mark wrote an article called The Depressed Christian,
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SPEAKER_01: and it got my attention,
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SPEAKER_01: and I've just been following him ever since.
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SPEAKER_01: So it's a delight to talk to Mark.
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SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll enjoy this episode.
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SPEAKER_01: It has so much—I feel like there was so much that was packed into it.
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SPEAKER_01: Marc Simms, it is a delight to have you on the podcast.
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reached out to you I don't know a couple weeks ago via Substack
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and I've been so
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happily just reading and gobbling up some of your Substack
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articles and it's a
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delight even more so uh to have you on the show how are you
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doing Mark how is life
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and uh after you answer those questions just kind of introduce
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yourself where you
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are where God has you in the season of life I'll praise God
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thanks thanks Brad uh
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SPEAKER_00: yeah um I'm doing well the Lord is good uh
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SPEAKER_00: I am pastoring up here in the Pacific Northwest.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm in Washington State.
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I'm the teaching pastor at Quinault Baptist Church,
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and I've been here for about six years.
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So I know you're in Pennsylvania,
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which is...
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Is Pennsylvania considered a part of New England?
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SPEAKER_00: Are you?
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SPEAKER_00: No, not technically.
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We're the Keystone State that's in the Northeast,
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but yeah,
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not New England.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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I just know people talk about New England like it's a place of
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uh like an absence
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of Christianity in a real way and people talk about the Pacific
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Northwest like that
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but New England is like the all of the historic Christianity is
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there but it's gone
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but in the Pacific Northwest we just never had it so it's like
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the land of paganism
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SPEAKER_00: over here is uh
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SPEAKER_00: So similar problems,
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non-identical twins But I love being up here in the Pacific
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Northwest Love getting
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SPEAKER_00: to be a pastor Yeah,
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God's good and I'm excited to get to be here I'm really honored
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just your invite to
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SPEAKER_00: have me on here,
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SPEAKER_00: man That's a big gift,
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SPEAKER_00: thank you
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SPEAKER_02: Man,
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SPEAKER_02: I love talking to people,
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SPEAKER_02: especially such as yourself,
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where we end up finding out that the Venn diagram of all of our
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interests seems to
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SPEAKER_02: be almost like a complete circle.
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SPEAKER_02: Just finding out that you love writing,
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SPEAKER_02: love Substack,
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SPEAKER_02: and then you wrote an essay about the TV show Severins.
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SPEAKER_02: It's like blowing my mind.
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SPEAKER_02: I've just been really delighted in that.
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SPEAKER_00: Nice, it is very nice I think C.S.
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Lewis said friendship begins with the words oh you too and like
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that's it is nice
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when you find someone else who geeks out on the same things you
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geek out on and
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severance is an awesome thing to geek out on so we'll probably
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get there sooner or
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later how long have you been on Substack and what are some
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things if people want to
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SPEAKER_02: know
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what does Mark Sims talk about what are some things that you
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love to write about
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yeah so I've been writing on Substack for a couple of years now
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I used to write back
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on WordPress and then before that on Blogger back in the old
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days but mySubstack is
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called Etcetera and that's primarily because I actually have a
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pretty broad
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SPEAKER_00: I'm just a curious and inquisitive person.
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SPEAKER_00: I like to think, and I think primarily through writing.
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And so I started my Substack just as a continuation of what I've
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always done with my
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SPEAKER_00: writing.
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And my writing has always been a way in which I think kind of
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out loud and in public.
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SPEAKER_00: And I also just love good writing.
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I think the skill that I'm most impressed with in other people
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is the ability to
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SPEAKER_00: write really well.
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SPEAKER_00: I think that's one of the most God-like abilities we have.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, God reveals himself through a book.
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There's a way in which words can reveal the mind and heart of a
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person in a way
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SPEAKER_00: which very few other things can.
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SPEAKER_00: And when someone's an extremely skilled writer,
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it's like you're being invited into their mind and their soul
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is opened up and
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SPEAKER_00: you're getting a chance to see the world through their eyes.
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SPEAKER_00: And when you can speak beautifully and powerfully
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SPEAKER_00: It's like you are gaining access to a whole new vantage point.
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SPEAKER_00: And so I've just always loved good writing.
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SPEAKER_00: I like books.
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SPEAKER_00: I like good books.
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I'm a pastor,
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so I like theology and biblical studies and philosophy and
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history.
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But often,
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as you are,
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I'm sure,
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aware,
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oftentimes those can be dry readings.
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and so when you can find someone who's a excellent writer who
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also is shaped by
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deep doctrine you know rich theology satisfying philosophy and
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they can articulate
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SPEAKER_00: that in a way that's beautiful that's a powerful thing and so I've just
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not claiming to be that person, but I wanna try.
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That's what I'm trying to do with my writing is I'm trying to
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speak beautifully
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SPEAKER_00: about reality before the face of God.
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SPEAKER_00: Right now,
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the majority of my interests in my writing have to do with a
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book I'm currently
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SPEAKER_00: working on.
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I'm writing a book with Baker Books that's about masculinity,
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sexuality,
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and virtue.
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And so I'm writing about kind of the masculinity crisis and
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also the sex recession,
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SPEAKER_00: more or less.
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SPEAKER_00: Why is no one having sex anymore?
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SPEAKER_00: And how those are connected and how men can recover from
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their virtue not by neglecting sex or not by turning to porn
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but by channeling that
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sexual desire into its God-given means which is to pursue a
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spouse and if you
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submit those sexual desires to that God-given design you will
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find yourself
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SPEAKER_00: incidentally pursuing a virtuous life
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SPEAKER_00: And so I'm writing a kind of how-to guide for young men who mostly,
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my primary audience is young single men who would like to be
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married but are not
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SPEAKER_00: and what they should do as they seek to pursue a spouse,
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SPEAKER_00: what virtues they ought to cultivate.
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And I just take the seven classical virtues and just kind of
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lay those out.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's a lot of my thinking and writing right now is in that vein.
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SPEAKER_00: But I've also been,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm still just my main squeeze vocationally is I'm a pastor,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm a teaching pastor.
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And so my nine to five is to preach and teach God's word and to
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administer word and
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SPEAKER_00: sacrament here in the local church.
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And lately that season has just led me into just a number of
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unique things
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circumstances that have been particularly trying and have been
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exposing in my own
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SPEAKER_00: heart kind of a need for more dependence on the Lord.
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And so lately I've also been writing a bit on depression in the
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Christian life,
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SPEAKER_00: going through difficulty,
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SPEAKER_00: hardship,
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SPEAKER_00: the role of faith,
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SPEAKER_00: and
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Yeah,
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but really,
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my interests are wide and varied and,
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you know,
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dare I say,
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undisciplined.
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SPEAKER_00: Because I'm just kind of like a dog at a carnival,
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SPEAKER_00: just nipping and barking at every smell and sight I see.
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SPEAKER_02: Love it, Mark.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't want you to spoil your book or get too far ahead of the game,
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but I have been really influenced by some of the pieces which
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seem to fit that
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SPEAKER_02: vein,
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SPEAKER_02: especially the one that you recently put up about infotain.
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SPEAKER_02: There's this conversation that's happening
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um in in various places but um this conversation online about
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masculinity and the
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the supposed crisis that's happening which I think is very much
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true um whether
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it's as you said whether it's a sexual crisis or whether it's a
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loneliness crisis
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and a lack of connection that that men face oftentimes whether
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they're in their 20s
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or 30s it doesn't matter when that it kind of hits them it's it
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hits ups at
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SPEAKER_02: different stages I think um
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SPEAKER_02: Can you speak more into that in some ways?
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SPEAKER_02: Only because we are so inundated with all of these places by which we are
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SPEAKER_02: supposedly getting wisdom.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking of this influencer culture.
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SPEAKER_02: I think Eddie Leroux,
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SPEAKER_02: another fellow substacker,
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SPEAKER_02: he's talked about the looks maxing and that type of thing.
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SPEAKER_02: I can't keep up with the Gen Z language in terms of what that means.
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SPEAKER_00: Just read Eddie Leroux and he'll keep you up with all of it now.
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Shout out to Eddie But How would you say And again not to spoil
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your book How would
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SPEAKER_02: you say The gospel or the word of God Is
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specifically speaks to young men in this current climate that
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we're in because
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there are so many different wells of knowledge or sometimes
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truth maybe it's not
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real truth but it appears to be true that young men especially
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are being drawn to
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SPEAKER_02: so what is as a young man but also what is as a pastor how can we re
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Rejigger that drawing towards the word instead of something
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yeah yeah i think i
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think of like in two married two primary issues at work which
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create individuals
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like clavicular or like andrew tate or the whatever boogeyman
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out of the manosphere
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SPEAKER_00: you want to summon uh which they not are all alike um
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SPEAKER_00: But the two main problems I think is One,
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it has to do with our wider culture as a whole And its
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fundamental denial of human
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nature I don't think that's articulated explicitly in pop songs
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and movies and
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books But there is this idea that you are whatever you want to
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be You know,
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SPEAKER_00: no one can tell you who you ought to be,
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SPEAKER_00: what you ought to be
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SPEAKER_00: And in every Disney movie that you and I grew up watching,
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there was always some boogeyman who was represented by an older
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individual who
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sought to impose a traditional hierarchy of meaning and
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expectation on the hero or
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SPEAKER_00: heroine.
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And the moral arc of the story was always found in that hero
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throwing off the dead
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hand of tradition and expectations and in finding who they are
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on the inside,
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SPEAKER_00: living out their own truth,
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SPEAKER_00: to use a very trite phase,
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SPEAKER_00: but essentially that,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm going to follow my heart and be who I want to be.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, the lone exception to that is maybe the Lion King, right?
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SPEAKER_00: And the Lion King, the whole story there is that
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Simba does try to go live out his own life living the Timon and
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Pumbaa lifestyle
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and he he finds out that actually by neglecting what he was
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supposed to be you know
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the world suffered for it and so the moral arc of that story is
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that he actually
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comes back takes the mantle of responsibility to be who he
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ought to be but most of
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the you know Disney stories don't follow that trajectory it's
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certainly not anymore
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And that's just illustrative of a deeper problem that our wider
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culture just
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SPEAKER_00: doesn't understand what human nature is.
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SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to be a human being?
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SPEAKER_00: It's kind of,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: salacious today,
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SPEAKER_00: given everything that's happened politically,
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SPEAKER_00: for people to kind of zero in on what does it mean to be a woman?
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You know,
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and that's kind of touching into the hot wire of
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transgenderism.
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SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that's a
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a spicy thing but I think it's equally problematic for someone
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to try to describe
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what does it mean to be a man and I think the masculinity
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crisis that is taking
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place is in part taking place because no one knows what that
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means to be a man so
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in my book one of the things I share is how we had a young man
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who lived in a rural
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SPEAKER_00: tribe in Tanzania live with us for a summer
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And he was telling us what it was like to live in a
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thatch-roofed hut with no
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SPEAKER_00: running water,
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SPEAKER_00: very kind of primitive environment,
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SPEAKER_00: certainly compared to what I grew up in.
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And he was sharing about the rite of passage that he had to
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undergo before he could
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SPEAKER_00: be considered a man in his village.
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And when he was 13 years old,
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he had to be circumcised publicly before the whole village.
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And if he underwent the entire process without crying,
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he was considered a man.
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SPEAKER_00: And when he told me that story,
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SPEAKER_00: I was,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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horrified and shocked But he was shocked by my shock He was
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surprised at my
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SPEAKER_00: surprise And he asked me,
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SPEAKER_00: well,
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SPEAKER_00: what do you do?
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SPEAKER_00: What does your culture do as a rite of passage for men?
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SPEAKER_00: And I immediately felt so impoverished
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And I could think of things that my dad did for me personally
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But there was no
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SPEAKER_00: unifying story No universal rite of passage that all of us underwent That
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communicated to us and to the community around us Here is a man
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And in part,
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we don't have that today Because we don't know how to answer
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that question
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And we don't know how to answer that question because we have
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lived so long in a
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SPEAKER_00: society that fundamentally denies human nature is an objective construct.
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SPEAKER_00: It's an objective idea.
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It's not just whatever you want to be,
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you know,
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examine your own whims and desires.
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So we need to have a grounding of human nature and then
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specifically be willing to
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SPEAKER_00: have an understanding of what masculine nature is.
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Because nature abhors a vacuum and when we live as if men and
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women don't have a
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SPEAKER_00: fundamental nature to them,
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then what happens is people who are willing to pay attention to
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parts of that
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SPEAKER_00: nature,
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SPEAKER_00: they will be able to take advantage of that,
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SPEAKER_00: but it'll be
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exaggerated and imbalanced and I think that's essentially what
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Andrew Tate is I
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think Andrew Tate has gained such popularity because he's
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willing to say things
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like men are strong in ways that women aren't men should take
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initiative and
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SPEAKER_00: leadership and responsibility and then he says a whole just
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You know,
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just cartload of poisonous,
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venomous,
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horrible things in with that.
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SPEAKER_00: But because he is willing to say things which do resonate with reality,
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SPEAKER_00: he gains a ground among young men who feel adrift.
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SPEAKER_00: What does it mean for me to be a man?
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SPEAKER_00: The 17-year-olds and the 18-year-olds that you talk to, they want to know
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SPEAKER_00: who they are and what they should do.
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SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
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that's the first issue is we need to recapture a biblical idea
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of human nature and
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SPEAKER_00: then specifically masculine nature.
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SPEAKER_00: But then that leads into the second thing we need,
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SPEAKER_00: but I've been talking for a long time,
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so I don't know if you want to interact with that before I go
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into anything else.
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SPEAKER_02: Keep going, keep going, keep going.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: the second thing that we need then is to shape that masculine nature in a
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SPEAKER_00: particular direction.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's where virtue, I think, comes in.
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SPEAKER_00: So,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: the Bible tells us that when God makes man,
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SPEAKER_00: he makes man distinct and different from women.
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SPEAKER_00: But sin enters the world.
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SPEAKER_00: And when sin enters the world,
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SPEAKER_00: we see sin warp both masculine and feminine natures in unique ways.
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SPEAKER_00: The curses of sin that fall on Adam and Eve are asymmetrical.
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SPEAKER_00: They're different.
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SPEAKER_00: And they bruise.
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Male and Female in the distinct feminine and masculine natures
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that they possess.
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SPEAKER_00: And so now masculinity, right?
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SPEAKER_00: We could say,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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one of the things that I argue in the book is that an essential
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aspect of masculine
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SPEAKER_00: nature is this idea of initiative.
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SPEAKER_00: That men take initiative, particularly romantically.
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SPEAKER_00: Um,
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Again so men men pursue a woman you know in in the Genesis
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account Adam is the one
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who responds to Eve speaks to Eve he rejoices over her and so
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that virtuously that
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SPEAKER_00: looks like a man pursues a woman loves her woos her wins her over
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SPEAKER_00: But if you don't have a virtuous design for that natural impulse,
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SPEAKER_00: well then that quickly perverts into men aggressively pursuing a woman,
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SPEAKER_00: men aggressively just being hedonistic and sexually exploitative,
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SPEAKER_00: being sexually adventurous in immoral ways.
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SPEAKER_00: And so it doesn't help young men to tell them that,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: that desire that they have to find a wife,
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SPEAKER_00: to find a woman,
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SPEAKER_00: to seek her out.
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SPEAKER_00: It doesn't help young men only to tell them that's bad, don't do that.
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What we need to tell them is the way in which sin has warped
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that to make you essentially just
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Sexually Depraved That's Bad But The Grace Of Christ Has Come
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To Restore What Sin
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SPEAKER_00: Has Taken And We See Virtue
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SPEAKER_00: modeled perfectly in the God-man Jesus Christ.
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SPEAKER_00: And what do we see in him?
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SPEAKER_00: Well, we see him take initiative towards his bride.
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SPEAKER_00: He loves us first.
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SPEAKER_00: He seeks us out, woos us, and wins us to himself.
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SPEAKER_00: And so Christ is the perfect emblem,
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SPEAKER_00: perfect picture of a virtuous man taking that inherent nature,
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SPEAKER_00: redeemed,
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SPEAKER_00: glorified,
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SPEAKER_00: and beautified.
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SPEAKER_00: And now you and I,
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SPEAKER_00: as men filled with the Spirit are being conformed into His image.
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SPEAKER_00: And so grace does not eliminate nature, but it does restore it.
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SPEAKER_00: It does repair us.
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SPEAKER_00: And so we get a chance to not throw away what God's good creation is,
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SPEAKER_00: both in the world around us and in our own nature itself,
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SPEAKER_00: but we submit it to Christ
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And through the ministry of the spirit and the communion of
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saints in the church,
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SPEAKER_00: we get to conform to Christ.
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SPEAKER_02: That's so good, Mike.
22:45
SPEAKER_02: Number one, I'm eager for the ability to read your book.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: But number two,
22:50
the story that you told about this lack of a defining masculine
22:56
moment when a
22:59
SPEAKER_02: society can recognize someone as man,
23:02
SPEAKER_02: that is...
23:05
I think your word there is very apt which is impoverished
23:09
because our society
23:11
doesn't really have that other than maybe the vapid losing of
23:16
your virginity as if
23:17
that's what marks the year which then brings in a whole host of
23:23
other problems and
23:24
issues and ill-conceived ideas of what masculinity is which
23:30
kind of leads to all
23:31
SPEAKER_02: the ends that you just described
23:33
which of course is what naturally would occur when whenever
23:40
within especially he
23:42
who is truth embodied is sidelined or put to the margin so we
23:47
can understand why
23:49
why is this there why is there this vacuity surrounding
23:54
masculine identity well
23:55
SPEAKER_02: it's because in no uncertain terms he who is a god man the perfect
24:01
Emblem as you said of a virtuous man as the push not only to
24:05
the sidelines but
24:07
relegated to so this area of of thought or philosophy that we
24:14
we don't even
24:15
consciously want to recognize anymore there's a lot of there's
24:19
a whole host of
24:20
reasons why there's a lot of reasons why that is not you know
24:24
where man is
24:26
in nature that we want to resist who God is and all that stuff
24:31
this is a very
24:33
unfortunate but very we could say expected outcome when when
24:38
truth scripture but he
24:40
who is the word in flesh is it puts the margins which again
24:45
brings I think the
24:48
sense of urgency for pastoral ministry for pastoral ministry
24:53
but also gospel
24:54
SPEAKER_02: ministry
24:56
in our present day is it not this is again the thing that I've
25:01
had conversation not
25:01
that quote unquote the Bible has the answer to every ill I
25:05
believe it's sufficient
25:06
for everything I don't mean to suggest that but I don't also
25:12
mean to suggest that
25:14
SPEAKER_02: pastored
25:15
I think pastors sometimes get themselves into an issue when
25:18
they think that they
25:18
SPEAKER_02: have the answer for everything.
25:19
SPEAKER_02: I don't think pastors do.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: We point to the one who does.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: But it makes this moment sort of,
25:26
SPEAKER_02: I would say,
25:27
just teeming with a sense of resonance and urgency for
25:34
precisely what the gospel...
25:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
25:38
SPEAKER_00: and especially as the gospel...
25:40
The gospel doesn't only provide salvation to individuals but
25:44
the gospel creates a
25:45
people and I do think again you could be an atheist and still
25:57
get the sense that
25:57
what human beings need are thick meaningful communities where
26:03
you have positive
26:05
SPEAKER_00: models of what a good person is
26:08
Right and you like this not this isn't something that's
26:11
exclusive to Christianity
26:12
of course you can read and I have had to read a number of
26:16
sociological studies
26:17
SPEAKER_00: about
26:18
Just the sheer absence of role models for young men and the
26:22
consequence that that has.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: But as you read those books,
26:25
SPEAKER_00: it is like the authors are saying,
26:27
if only there was a community where you had multi-generational
26:32
relationships
26:33
established across young and old men where the older men could
26:36
give a positive
26:38
example of what it means to be a dad and a husband and what it
26:41
means to be a man.
26:43
and it's like they're saying if only there was such a thing as
26:46
a church and that's
26:48
exactly you know we need we need the gospel to come and to free
26:52
young men from
26:53
poisonous destructive ideologies which are twisting them in on
26:59
their most base
27:00
desires but we also need brothers in Christ you know the words
27:05
of Paul to the
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Corinthians has stuck out so much in my mind where he tells them
27:11
SPEAKER_00: Not many of you have had fathers in Christ.
27:16
SPEAKER_00: So I became a father to you in Christ.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: So the church can be this really rich opportunity where that familial,
27:30
SPEAKER_00: relational nourishment can be provided,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: which is really where the most important things,
27:35
SPEAKER_00: far more important than a book,
27:37
SPEAKER_00: is having a
27:40
those thick relationships with older men who can model for you
27:44
what a virtuous life
27:46
looks like that's really good mark I was thinking and I've
27:52
shared with certain
27:54
people like you can even just see kind of like the effects of
27:57
this within within
27:59
you know the broader scope of not just social media but like
28:04
cinema itself with the
28:07
SPEAKER_02: general lack of let's say
28:12
positive male masculine role model whereas a lot of the role
28:20
models have been
28:21
either made into either a female or just either it's whoever
28:31
the male has been
28:33
SPEAKER_02: reclassified as a villain just like off the and I think that that
28:40
I don't mean to sound like I haven't done a lot of research on
28:45
it but that's just
28:46
the general impression that may sound anecdotal but that's just
28:50
this impression
28:50
that we get and it can feel dispossessing as a young man like
28:54
well who am I looking
28:55
to and everyone's telling me that I'm what's wrong with the
29:01
world I'm the person
29:04
SPEAKER_02: that is
29:05
SPEAKER_02: I'm like this catalyzing force for some of the society's evils.
29:13
It's no wonder that either young men are feeling so
29:18
dispossessed and disillusioned
29:19
that they are either depressed and they're turning to all of
29:22
these other vats of
29:25
SPEAKER_02: meaning that actually don't provide much of what
29:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
29:30
SPEAKER_00: in Peggy Orenstein's book,
29:32
SPEAKER_00: Boys and Sex,
29:33
she interviews a number of young men at college campuses in the
29:36
UK and she asks
29:37
SPEAKER_00: them,
29:38
SPEAKER_00: what do you like about being a boy as opposed to a girl?
29:44
SPEAKER_00: And most of the respondents are totally baffled by the question.
29:49
And she records one respondent as saying,
29:51
wow,
29:52
I've never thought about that before.
29:53
You only ever hear about what's wrong about being a boy as
29:58
opposed to a girl.
30:00
and that's I think that's the and this is changing right like
30:04
I'm you know this
30:06
that book came out a couple years ago and it's wild how much
30:09
culture changes how
30:10
rapidly now I don't think we're in the same place today here in
30:14
2026 as we were in
30:15
2018 but but there is a there's still the the most prominent
30:24
voices who are shaping
30:27
SPEAKER_00: academics culture media
30:31
SPEAKER_00: are voices that view traditional masculine natures,
30:38
SPEAKER_00: strength,
30:39
SPEAKER_00: initiative,
30:39
SPEAKER_00: authority,
30:40
SPEAKER_00: leadership,
30:42
SPEAKER_00: competition.
30:44
They view those things as suspect out of the gate and as things
30:49
that are things to
30:51
SPEAKER_00: be viewed askance.
30:52
And so finding positive role models in stories and movies are
30:57
few and far between.
31:00
you find plenty of examples of what's wrong about what's
31:05
negative but there are few
31:09
and far between all of this has been awesome and it's not
31:14
initially what I wanted
31:14
to talk to you about but I think it's so it's so on point with
31:19
where we are because
31:21
what I wanted initially to talk to you about is a perfect segue
31:24
because you don't
31:27
SPEAKER_02: have to search far and wide to
31:30
see the rise as we kind of hinted at or highlighted the rise of
31:35
loneliness not just
31:36
in men across the board but we can stay on that track but
31:40
loneliness and men also
31:41
depression in men which sometimes leads to men um and you wrote
31:48
a piece a while
31:49
SPEAKER_02: back called the the depressed christian where you seem to tease out
31:55
some of these themes not necessarily just on the side of
31:58
masculinity but on the
31:59
side of how depression and faith intersect which from my
32:04
standpoint is always a
32:07
conversation that I'm willing to have with people because
32:11
having been through that
32:12
SPEAKER_02: myself but then also tendentially through my own mom that is a topic of
32:20
SPEAKER_02: conversation that I'm thankful for which
32:25
SPEAKER_02: It's been broke more often in our current climate.
32:29
We're not as scared to talk about some of these mental health
32:35
difficulties that
32:36
SPEAKER_02: people go through anymore.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: It's not necessarily seen as seen as blue.
32:40
SPEAKER_02: I still think that,
32:41
SPEAKER_02: and I still,
32:43
SPEAKER_02: again,
32:43
SPEAKER_02: not to be anecdotal,
32:44
there's still been occasions where this conversation has still
32:47
made many people in
32:49
SPEAKER_02: the way that it has been viewed in the past
32:53
SPEAKER_02: Mental health is a problem of faith or,
32:55
SPEAKER_02: you know,
32:56
it's an issue that you just need to be more spiritually
32:59
disciplined in order to
33:01
SPEAKER_02: overcome very unhelpful pieces of that.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: Anyways,
33:07
SPEAKER_02: kind of,
33:08
SPEAKER_02: can you speak to what you were,
33:10
SPEAKER_02: what your approach was with that piece,
33:12
SPEAKER_02: but then also maybe,
33:14
SPEAKER_02: if not your own,
33:14
but some of the ways that you've interacted with both faith and
33:18
depression in that
33:19
SPEAKER_02: intersection,
33:20
SPEAKER_02: which is sometimes fraught with people.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: So I want to be cautious as I talk about this.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I do talk about in that article,
33:37
SPEAKER_00: The Depressed Christian,
33:39
is that one of the pains of depression is that you cannot
33:44
explain it accurately.
33:48
you know you the interiority of your own emotional experience
33:53
is itself something
33:54
that you can't articulate and your your inability to articulate
33:59
it is itself one of
34:01
the factors that hurts you you know if you just say I'm sad
34:06
that obviously doesn't
34:07
do justice to the the weight of what you're feeling and even if
34:10
you try and I do in
34:12
SPEAKER_00: that article I try to to
34:16
Use word pictures that give image to what it feels like to be
34:21
in that pit.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: But even that, it still doesn't do justice to it.
34:27
SPEAKER_00: So what I want to be cautious about is anytime I do speak about this,
34:31
I'm just mindful that my experience with depression that I have
34:35
had is my own.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: And I want to be cautious in saying things
34:41
SPEAKER_00: You know,
34:42
what I have experienced is what you have experienced or what
34:44
anyone else who would
34:45
SPEAKER_00: say that they're experiencing a season of depression has experienced.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: I think really only the Lord knows that.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: But I tried to offer some words of counsel in that piece.
35:00
that were not intended to be the end-all be-all about what one
35:07
ought to do when
35:09
SPEAKER_00: they are in that season or why one gets into that season,
35:13
but just tried to offer some words of counsel as someone who's
35:16
also been in that
35:17
SPEAKER_00: hole myself.
35:20
You asked me about the problem with talking about this issue is
35:27
that it can be
35:27
SPEAKER_00: difficult to square with faith,
35:30
SPEAKER_00: right?
35:32
And I think the presumption that someone might have if they see
35:37
a problem with that
35:38
SPEAKER_00: is the assumption is that if you are a faithful Christian,
35:44
SPEAKER_00: you ought not feel this way.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: You know,
35:47
SPEAKER_00: those who are filled with the Spirit,
35:50
SPEAKER_00: believe the gospel,
35:52
SPEAKER_00: go into heaven,
35:53
SPEAKER_00: why would they ever feel sad?
35:57
And I think the only way anyone could ever seriously say that
36:00
is if they have never
36:03
SPEAKER_00: felt that before.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
36:07
Have you met someone in real life who has ever made it seem
36:11
like depression was
36:11
SPEAKER_00: something a real Christian ought not feel?
36:17
I've been under the preaching of someone who would make that
36:21
argument,
36:21
yes.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm sorry.
36:27
I you know it's it seems so evident I do I remember hearing
36:33
some a famous preacher
36:35
guy who when asked what he does when he gets discouraged and
36:43
his response was I
36:45
don't get discouraged and I thought crap well that's really
36:51
discouraging for me to
36:52
SPEAKER_00: hear yeah
36:55
Because I do And I do But I don't want to cast dispersions on
37:00
that man Maybe the
37:02
Lord has just given him A remarkable disposition of joy And
37:07
Praise God for that Way
37:09
to go And I hope to have a kind of An imperviousness of joy I
37:16
do think There can be
37:17
an unhealthy way Where we so try to normalize depression That
37:22
we make it sound
37:23
SPEAKER_00: Almost like a badge of honor
37:25
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's what we want to do here.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: Depression is obviously a sign that something has gone wrong.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: And then it's not,
37:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:36
SPEAKER_00: I don't think that means that it's something that you fix like that.
37:41
But when we're in heaven,
37:44
we will not be depressed because we will be united with our
37:49
Lord.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: And so my aim here on this earth is to
37:55
SPEAKER_00: I do want to be realistic that sin is devious and
38:13
And Satan is monstrous And this world is discouraging And I am
38:22
just a creature who
38:23
has real limits And if I live like I don't have limits If I act
38:30
like sin doesn't
38:31
have consequences Consequences not just spiritually but
38:35
mentally as well If I act
38:39
SPEAKER_00: like sin
38:41
SPEAKER_00: The slings and arrows of life are not real,
38:46
then I'm going to be caught off guard and I'm going to be
38:49
surprised at the enormity
38:52
of my sadness and I'll be caught in places where I will not
38:58
have categories to
38:59
SPEAKER_00: explain why I feel the way I feel.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: Thanks be to God,
39:02
I've been under good teaching and I've read enough to know that
39:06
I have categories,
39:07
SPEAKER_00: at least,
39:08
SPEAKER_00: for being able to theoretically explain why I feel the way I feel.
39:12
SPEAKER_00: But it still is a surprising thing.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: You can read a book about what it's like to ride a bull,
39:20
but that's not the same thing as actually getting on the back
39:22
of the bull and
39:23
SPEAKER_00: trying to hang on.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: No, that's a really good point, Mark.
39:28
SPEAKER_02: And again, not to
39:30
SPEAKER_02: Not to be that guy,
39:31
but my book that I wrote years ago called Finding God into the
39:34
Darkness is all
39:35
SPEAKER_02: about this very topic,
39:38
SPEAKER_02: the intersection between oppression.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: So for maybe some newer listeners and others that
39:46
SPEAKER_02: Some people have been listening or following for a while.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: They probably know the story.
39:49
SPEAKER_02: But several years ago,
39:52
SPEAKER_02: actually coming up on about eight years ago,
39:55
my mom had a very acute mental health collapse in which she
40:00
lost a lot of her
40:01
SPEAKER_02: cognitive faculties where she couldn't.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: And she was diagnosed and should have had speed.
40:09
um treated in a lot of very intense ways um and that was a very
40:14
disconcerting
40:14
season and I've often had this conversation with individuals
40:18
that depression is
40:19
often like smoking that you can get it um it affects the person
40:24
smoking but it is
40:25
also uh effective secondhand um oh that's good man I think that
40:33
you can feel the
40:34
SPEAKER_02: ripple effect and I definitely did um
40:37
and so I wrote a whole book about it because I was trying to
40:40
process what does it
40:42
mean that a faithful wife aka my mom of a pastor goes through
40:51
something like this
40:51
as you kind of hinted at we ought not to endure this or at
40:56
least that's how
40:57
sometimes we are that's the impression we are made to have
41:02
either through implicit
41:04
SPEAKER_02: or explicit rhetoric in the church
41:07
This is at odds with what it means to be a person who follows
41:13
the Lord which my
41:19
blunt reaction well that's a lot of baloney especially when
41:23
you're reading
41:24
scripture and that's not a very philosophical word but when
41:28
you're reading the
41:29
SPEAKER_02: scriptures especially when you're reading
41:32
there's two instances that always state well not instances one
41:35
is an instance but
41:36
one is an overarching just being I don't think you can make
41:41
that statement that we
41:43
ought not to other than this other than the sense that like
41:46
this is not how God
41:47
designed it definitely you can say it that way but then also in
41:51
this world is
41:52
broken and fractured Genesis 3 we don't have to retype all that
41:56
if you read the
41:57
SPEAKER_02: Psalms
41:58
You cannot read the Psalms and understand them through a lens
42:02
of faith and
42:03
depression or like oil and water because the psalmist whoever
42:08
it might have been in
42:09
any case but especially the Davidic Psalms are riddled with
42:13
doubts of true despair
42:16
and there's two instances that always come to my mind one I
42:21
just recently preached
42:22
SPEAKER_02: at a men's retreat for my dad's church actually
42:26
and the theme of the week and i was really struggling when i
42:29
was preparing for it
42:30
where was i gonna go well it struck me that one of them one of
42:35
the most powerful
42:36
images of masculinity not to just bring that topic back in but
42:39
i think it's really
42:40
a long point one of the intriguing instances we get of a
42:43
faithful man but also a
42:45
SPEAKER_02: man who is reeling with where his world is is
42:51
the prophet of Quebec who begins with oracle by crying out how
42:56
long are you going
42:57
to let this go on how long are you going to just let violence
43:01
and injustice just
43:04
run rampant run roughshod through the streets when are you
43:07
going to do something
43:08
where are you this I don't mean to clinically do that but if
43:15
you read those words
43:16
SPEAKER_02: you have a prophet who is in the straits of despair
43:21
because he sees how his own country is reeling from the effects
43:31
of turning away
43:32
from him and the point there is a man of faith isn't a man who
43:39
presses and tamps
43:40
SPEAKER_02: down those things with which we are just so
43:47
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we can get that impression, right?
43:48
A masculine man,
43:49
that old trite thing,
43:51
men don't cry,
43:52
which is preposterous.
43:53
SPEAKER_02: And Habakkuk and David will have a lot to say about that.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: The other instance,
43:57
SPEAKER_01: I think I'm always turned to 2 Corinthians 1,
44:02
where Paul talks about the fact that he has pushed beyond the
44:05
limits of what he
44:06
SPEAKER_02: thought they were going to be there,
44:09
SPEAKER_02: to the point where they thought they were going to die,
44:12
SPEAKER_02: he says.
44:14
He doesn't use the word depression but the language of despair
44:17
is so overt within
44:21
that little snippet that you get from the beginning of and then
44:27
he says he says
44:30
quite overtly that it is through that that he was reminded of
44:35
the hope of the
44:36
SPEAKER_02: resurrection his mind is immediately turned I think it's verses 8 9 10
44:43
he's reminded that through death is where their hope is found
44:50
which is just to say
44:52
that although we don't wish for anyone to be depressed at all
44:59
this stigma that is
45:00
SPEAKER_02: often attached to
45:03
to that malady is not as anti-biblical as sometimes we have
45:08
made it because in fact
45:10
many of the most beloved saints in the scriptures have been
45:14
saints who have
45:15
dispaired at the thought of losing their own lives and thanks
45:19
be to God that we
45:22
have hope in this body of death through Christ Amen I mean read
45:26
Psalm 22 those are
45:28
SPEAKER_00: the
45:29
that's the mindset of Jesus as he's on the cross and it's a
45:35
like he's faithful you
45:37
know it's a my God you know he's not he's not abandoning but he
45:41
does you know you
45:43
have forsaken me the feeling of being forsaken is not outside
45:48
of the category of
45:50
SPEAKER_00: Christian experience the perfect God man
45:53
experience to that who are we to think that we as those who are
45:57
being conformed to
45:58
his image shouldn't also at times walk through seasons like
46:02
that I think the you
46:06
SPEAKER_00: know again it's interesting everyone's story is so unique about
46:11
About dealing with depression and I don't I live up here in the
46:16
Pacific Northwest
46:17
where we don't have the Bible Belt and I think there's some of
46:20
that culture where
46:22
someone might view depression as a lack of faith it's just not
46:28
I'm sure that is
46:29
here in some ways but that's not the air we breathe up here I'm
46:34
almost in like an
46:36
SPEAKER_00: almost opposite environment where
46:41
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I need to remind people that,
46:43
SPEAKER_00: hey,
46:44
SPEAKER_00: the Lord can meet you in this season of darkness.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: He can sustain you.
46:52
I don't talk with many people who are struggling with
46:55
depression who feel like
46:58
I think depression is something that if anyone has ever
47:00
struggled with depression
47:01
SPEAKER_00: you feel ashamed because you feel like man I'm
47:26
I'm a bummer to be around right now I'm a drag I'm like I don't
47:31
invite me to your
47:32
party because I'm gonna ruin it there's that shame that comes
47:36
with that but I'm I
47:38
feel a need and this is just the my story and my environment to
47:42
remind people that
47:43
hey this is the Lord can help you even if it doesn't mean that
47:49
like you're happy
47:50
SPEAKER_00: and clappy tomorrow but don't
47:53
SPEAKER_00: Don't embrace this despair like a badge of identity.
47:58
Don't,
47:59
you know,
48:00
think of like your reality right now is like I'm just,
48:04
this is who I am.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: That's,
48:07
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
48:08
SPEAKER_00: that's my experience pastorally and honestly just in my own struggle,
48:13
SPEAKER_00: I think,
48:13
SPEAKER_00: with this.
48:15
SPEAKER_02: I was reminded of, so one of the quotes that stood out to me is a book
48:20
The Noonday Demon by Andrew Solomon In that book he has this
48:22
comment that basically
48:22
SPEAKER_02: one of the most fracturing parts of
48:36
any conversation about depression or anything like that is just
48:41
the fact that it is
48:42
so almost undiagnosable in the sense that it's always different
48:45
he refers to it as
48:47
like no two experiences just like no two snowflakes are the
48:52
same no two experiences
48:56
they're unique to them which is kind of what you referred to
49:02
and yet at the same
49:03
SPEAKER_02: time one of the most
49:06
I think amazing aspects of the gospel is the fact that no
49:09
matter what we have
49:11
experienced when it comes to feeling forsaken or dejected
49:15
rejected that feeling of
49:19
your thoughts are paralyzed by everything and nothing is the
49:25
fact that the same
49:27
SPEAKER_02: words of the gospel can meet the
49:31
the bedraggled sinner and saint no matter what they are going
49:35
through and give them
49:36
the same this is like the hope that I I've striven to show and
49:44
give is the hope of
49:46
Christ the same words of Christ meet the weary saint or
49:50
bedraggled sinner and they
49:51
SPEAKER_02: bring them out of ruin into into life into fullness and
49:58
that's not always an immediate rote that's not always a quick
50:01
easy on-ramp but the
50:04
same words of promise are given which is it is a life-giving
50:11
and such again we can
50:14
use that phrase the peace that passes understanding is this
50:17
all-surpassing
50:19
enveloping peace that is given when the words of Christ are
50:22
spoken I'm reminded of
50:23
SPEAKER_02: that scene and it's been the one that's been so impressed upon my mind
50:28
I preached about it the past he's receiving is that scene where
50:34
Jesus shows his
50:36
wounds to his fighting and of course we focus on the Thomas
50:40
scene which is true
50:41
enough the painting by Caravaggio but I think what's so
50:49
fascinating to me is that
50:50
SPEAKER_02: what Thomas was asking for is the same thing that his friends
50:56
Experience a week earlier which is that they were they did put
51:00
their hands in the
51:02
world Jesus and they saw and it says that when they did that
51:08
they were flat and I
51:10
think that the thing that always stands out to me is that
51:12
whenever and this is
51:13
maybe getting a little abstract but whenever the scriptures are
51:16
open that scene is
51:19
SPEAKER_02: being reputed
51:20
Because when the gospel is given,
51:22
the wounds of Christ are given to doubters and discouragers.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: Brother, that's so good.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: Heck yeah, man, that'll preach.
51:31
SPEAKER_02: I told you I was a preacher.
51:34
SPEAKER_02: But that's the words of hope we give.
51:38
SPEAKER_02: No matter what, I both... Go ahead.
51:42
Well,
51:42
I think that's what the depressed Christian needs to hear is
51:46
that there are words of hope.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: You said earlier every road isn't the same, but there is a road.
51:53
And I think one of the things that is so terrifying when you
51:59
are in that pit is the
52:01
SPEAKER_00: thought,
52:03
SPEAKER_00: I will not get out.
52:05
SPEAKER_00: There is no hope.
52:08
Tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the day after
52:11
that and the week and
52:11
SPEAKER_00: months after that,
52:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to still be here and maybe it'll even get worse.
52:16
That's a terrifying experience to go do something that normally
52:21
brings you joy and
52:22
SPEAKER_00: it's just nothing.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: And so I think it is an act of faith to remind yourself,
52:30
and you need the church for this because you need more than
52:32
just yourself,
52:33
SPEAKER_00: but to remind yourself that there is hope.
52:36
Reality is not determined by how you feel right now Christ is
52:41
still there and his
52:43
wounds have not been closed to you they're open to you there is
52:48
hope and I think we
52:49
do need to keep that in our mind even as we do we want to
52:53
dispel any kind of false
52:54
shame over being experiencing depression we don't want anyone
53:01
to feel that but we
53:02
SPEAKER_00: also want to tell the individual who's in that pit
53:05
SPEAKER_00: Christ has not left you there.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: He's there with you.
53:09
And his ministry to you might not look like what you are hoping
53:14
it would be or
53:15
SPEAKER_00: think it would be,
53:15
SPEAKER_00: but that does not mean that he's left you.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: He's there.
53:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's,
53:22
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
53:22
SPEAKER_00: I think for the sufferer who is in the pit,
53:26
SPEAKER_00: they need to be pulled outside of their own
53:31
SPEAKER_00: analysis of their feelings to the objective reality,
53:35
SPEAKER_00: even though they don't feel it,
53:36
SPEAKER_00: that Christ has not left them.
53:40
SPEAKER_02: And this is why
53:43
Preachers like ourselves perhaps that nerd out on the gospel we
53:47
get the nerd out on
53:47
this part which is the fact that what we offer is this is maybe
53:53
like a very
53:54
Lutheran way to put it but we offer hope that comes outside of
53:57
ourselves it is
53:58
extra nose it is it is not we we don't turn anyone to look
54:04
inward we we want them
54:06
to turn outward to the objective work that Christ has already
54:09
taken on their not
54:11
SPEAKER_02: just their sin
54:12
SPEAKER_02: But the suffering that comes with sin as well,
54:16
SPEAKER_02: all the brokenness Isaiah 53,
54:19
it talks about the anguish and the atrocities and the judgment
54:23
that he feels and
54:24
also the pain and the scars and the shame that he feels as well
54:29
That's the
54:30
objective work that Christ has done for us That's the gospel
54:36
that is given to
54:38
SPEAKER_02: sufferers and sinners no matter what that looks like
54:42
So for me as someone who is so eager to give that that's why I
54:46
love to preach about
54:48
and show people that this even still like going back to
54:51
Habakkuk one of my favorite
54:54
verses the one that I highlighted a lot and it comes in
55:00
Habakkuk 1 verse 5 you know
55:02
SPEAKER_02: after he gives all these complaints about
55:06
his current state of affairs the things that he's enduring and
55:09
seeing or noticing
55:10
and where's God in the midst of all this God how long are you
55:13
going to stay today
55:14
God gives him this really fascinating answer so in chapter one
55:17
what he does what
55:18
God does is he eventually he elaborates on the fact that
55:21
actually he's raising up
55:22
an arm of judgment to judge his people of course but in the
55:25
midst of that he gives
55:26
them the amazing promise Habakkuk 1 5 where he says I am doing
55:31
a work that
55:33
And I love that phrase because it reminds me that even in the
55:35
midst of what seems
55:37
SPEAKER_02: hopeless or dark,
55:38
SPEAKER_02: there is a work that God is working.
55:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:40
SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of the essence of faith.
55:41
SPEAKER_02: So I'm reading a book by Joseph Pieper.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: right now on the theological virtues.
56:06
SPEAKER_00: And it's three books compiled together, but he has a book on hope.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: And he makes the argument that there's two kinds of hopelessness.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: One is the hopelessness of despair.
56:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's you no longer believe that anything good can come.
56:25
SPEAKER_00: Tomorrow will not be better, nor the next day.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: The future is black.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: The other kind of hopelessness is presumption.
56:33
It's the belief that I don't need to hope for anything because
56:38
I have everything.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: Inherent in hope is the idea that you lack something.
56:46
SPEAKER_00: If I hope that tomorrow will be better,
56:48
SPEAKER_00: that means that today I don't have what I'm hoping tomorrow has.
56:52
SPEAKER_00: So there's humility.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: I have to admit that I lack something.
56:57
SPEAKER_00: But there's also that sense of faith that tomorrow can be better.
57:03
it can because God is there and so we need we need two things
57:08
to have hope and
57:09
that's humility to not presume to not you know not have the
57:14
cocky swagger of you
57:15
know like I'm not worried about anything I have everything I
57:18
want which just gets
57:21
knocked out of you as you get older but we can't also lose that
57:26
kind of childlike
57:28
SPEAKER_00: faith that God's going to take care of us
57:32
SPEAKER_00: And as you get older,
57:34
that cockiness gets knocked out of you But what can happen as
57:37
we get older is our
57:39
SPEAKER_00: childlike faith can get knocked out of us too Our Christ-like ambition,
57:46
SPEAKER_00: our magnanimity,
57:48
SPEAKER_00: the sense that God is for us We're going to heaven,
57:52
SPEAKER_00: His Spirit lives in me,
57:53
God is on my team And He has promised that everything is going
57:57
to work for my good
57:59
We can't lose that And it's easy to lose that When you go
58:03
through a prolonged
58:04
season of hard When life does not look good It is difficult
58:09
Habakkuk looked around
58:10
SPEAKER_00: And it did not look like God was there And so it is easy to say How long,
58:17
SPEAKER_00: Lord?
58:18
SPEAKER_00: Where are you?
58:20
And so hope is It's the way God has made us We are made for
58:25
hope We are hope-oriented creatures
58:27
Because we're creatures,
58:28
we don't have everything,
58:30
but we're destined for communion with God.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: So that means that our future is impossibly bright.
58:36
SPEAKER_00: It's so much better than we could ever imagine.
58:41
That hope is the most rational response anyone should have who
58:46
recognizes who they
58:47
SPEAKER_00: are made in the image of God.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: And Pieper does a really great job of just flushing that out, that it
58:54
it just makes sense to be hopeful and despair doesn't make any
58:58
sense neither does
58:59
presumption it's really good Mark and I like that image of
59:04
childlike faith I've
59:05
often thought that what it means to have faith is sort of like
59:10
what it what a child
59:12
has like the gullibility to believe that the rumor is true and
59:18
yeah that's that's
59:20
SPEAKER_02: kind of what faith is that
59:23
SPEAKER_02: We're not going to have all the answers, we're going to have...
59:27
I'm preaching through Exodus right now,
59:29
so this is really fresh on my mind.
59:32
SPEAKER_02: The scene of the Red Sea crossing is obviously very famous,
59:39
SPEAKER_02: whether it's in media or art or whatever.
59:42
SPEAKER_01: But I love that scene.
59:45
especially since this is like one of the first real hurdles
59:49
that the people of God
59:50
have faced since they have been exodus out of Egypt and then
59:55
they're caught in this
59:56
really horrible predicament where they can't go forward they
59:59
can't go to the left
1:00:00
or the right they can't go back because you know now Egypt is
1:00:03
hot on their heels
1:00:04
and Moses brings to them a word and he says actually no just
1:00:09
stand firm and watch
1:00:11
SPEAKER_02: the salvation that God is going to work for you
1:00:15
and the point of that is that I've been so struck by is that
1:00:19
they really had no
1:00:20
reason to believe in that other than this word of promise that
1:00:23
was given to them by
1:00:24
a preacher which is Moses in that instance but they there was
1:00:28
no real evidence to
1:00:30
say other than they've seen God work through plagues they've
1:00:34
seen him work through
1:00:36
different forms of judgment per se but if you want to give the
1:00:41
people of God the
1:00:42
SPEAKER_02: benefit of the doubt in that instance
1:00:44
her cries of Moses why did you take us out here make a little
1:00:49
bit of sense because
1:00:50
they've not seen God work in this way and I think this is what
1:00:55
God means when he
1:00:56
tells Moses that you're gonna you're gonna like I'm gonna show
1:00:59
you who I am I am
1:01:00
that I am and you're gonna see it because when and they see it
1:01:04
by the way in which
1:01:05
SPEAKER_02: he delivers them and I love that scene because the
1:01:12
it speaks so much to our present moment that maybe we won't
1:01:15
have all of the details
1:01:18
or the particulars for the way in which God is working and yet
1:01:21
even still we are
1:01:22
called by a word of hope and a word of promise to believe to
1:01:27
trust in the work that
1:01:28
God is working despite evidences to the contrary which again
1:01:32
speaks to the
1:01:33
childlike faith the gullibility to believe in the rumor of
1:01:37
grace that the rumor of
1:01:38
SPEAKER_02: grace is truth
1:01:40
that what God has ordained in ages past when he called us by
1:01:46
name Ephesians 1 and
1:01:48
so on and so forth that that is actually still in effect and
1:01:52
that those whom he has
1:01:53
called he is not going to cast aside he is not going to let
1:01:58
Saul out of his palm
1:02:00
which is a really heartwarming image and again it speaks to
1:02:05
what you're talking
1:02:06
SPEAKER_02: about because we are neither given to
1:02:08
SPEAKER_02: Presumption or despair.
1:02:10
We are not given to this Pollyanna-ish hope that everything is
1:02:14
just going to work out for good.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_02: But we are neither given to this cynicism that nothing felt like that.
1:02:19
Christian hope is very much rooted in what God has promised
1:02:25
through his word,
1:02:26
SPEAKER_02: which brings us back again to what we talked about in the beginning.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_02: That you love writing because our God is a God who speaks.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking about that too.
1:02:36
Exodus 20 God begins declaring his law by saying he's speaking
1:02:42
he's a God who
1:02:42
writes he uses his finger to write the laws of how he desires
1:02:48
his people to live
1:02:51
which is to say God's people have always been a people that
1:02:54
have been rooted in the
1:02:55
word and what a great hope that is in our current moment yeah
1:03:00
and that's the
1:03:00
SPEAKER_00: externality that we need right when I'm in the pit of despair
1:03:05
SPEAKER_00: My own thoughts aren't enough to get me out.
1:03:10
I need the externality of a word in black and white promised to
1:03:14
me and ideally
1:03:16
SPEAKER_00: spoken to me through the voice of a brother.
1:03:18
That's Bonhoeffer's famous dictum that the Christ in the words
1:03:24
of my brother is
1:03:25
SPEAKER_00: stronger than the Christ in me.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_00: When I hear my brother call me to hope, the sheer externality of that
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: Mirrors the external objective work of Christ on the cross.
1:03:39
And so I can believe it in a way that it's harder for me to
1:03:42
believe when I'm
1:03:43
SPEAKER_00: sitting by myself in a room trying to summon up faith,
1:03:47
SPEAKER_00: trying to summon joy.
1:03:49
SPEAKER_00: I need the church.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_00: I need the singing of God's people.
1:03:52
SPEAKER_00: I need word and sacrament.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_00: I need these external concrete objects because that aligns with
1:03:59
God is not a figment of my imagination a Freudian projection
1:04:03
that I have concocted
1:04:04
up to soothe my troubled soul he's a person who stands and I
1:04:11
need to be reminded of
1:04:12
that especially when I'm in the pit of despair Mark this has
1:04:18
been a delight thank
1:04:19
you so much for sharing your heart your heart for the word for
1:04:23
the written word in
1:04:24
SPEAKER_02: terms of writing but also the preached word
1:04:27
and thank you so much for joining today and where can people
1:04:30
find you and when is
1:04:32
your book getting released yeah so my Substack it's called etc
1:04:37
but you can go to
1:04:38
pastormark.substack.com but I am Mark with a C Mark with a C
1:04:43
this is my lifelong
1:04:46
SPEAKER_00: dilemma Mark with a C so pastormark.substack.com
1:04:50
My book is going to be published in the summer,
1:04:54
Lord willing,
1:04:54
the summer of 2027.
1:04:55
SPEAKER_00: So I've got a year to go.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm still finishing writing right now.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_00: So my manuscript I'll submit in June, Lord willing.
1:05:03
And right now the working title is Redeeming Men,
1:05:07
but that'll probably change as it goes along.
1:05:12
I'm excited for that all the all the links for those things
1:05:14
will be in the notes
1:05:15
for this show to go check that out Mark thanks for joining
1:05:17
today and uh we'll we'll
1:05:19
make this uh not a a one and done thing so we'll make sure yeah
1:05:23
all right right on
1:05:25
SPEAKER_00: thanks brother
1:05:26
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Ministry
1:05:28
Minded Podcast.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_01: I hope you've been blessed by it.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_01: If you haven't yet, go subscribe.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_01: You can find Ministry Minded on Apple, on Spotify, or right here.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: Make sure you do that as well, right here on Substack.
1:05:38
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for your encouragement, for your support.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_01: If you have an idea for a show,
1:05:43
or if you have someone that you would like me to have on just
1:05:45
to sit and have a
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: conversation with,
1:05:47
SPEAKER_01: feel free to shoot me an email.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_01: I'd love to entertain those.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_01: But thank you as always for listening, commenting, and subscribing.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_01: And until then, I'll see you in the next episode.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: Blessings.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: Bye.